New Nacra 20 footer?

An exerpt from an e-mail I received from Cathouse....

New Nacra Project, Nacra is launching in 2010 a new cat. Project code name F20... This is going to get interesting! One of the major goal of this boat is “going to be line honors” I'll try to keep you informed as design details and development progresses. This new boat will not be replacing the existing Nacra 20 One-Design!!

Anybody have the inside scoop?

I heard the same thing, but didn't see it in print.

Karl... are you thinking about a boat for yourself since the Infusion is Beths?

if it's a 20 footer and it succeeds in scoring line honors all the time, I think it would probably replace current 20 footers sort of like the N20/I20 did to the N6.0... ?

Depends on how much the new ride costs. The M20 and Eagle aren't exactly storming the 20 foot market.

I've got three each.

You didn't get your bailout money yet?

Those kinds of boats were built to win the Tybee 500 and other big distance races.

When the Tybee decided that one design was the future of the race... those boats have no reason to be raced in the states.

A boat built for "line honors" .... presumes that you have some distance races that you want to go out and win.

If the big one is off the table... does winning the steeple chase merit buying a hot 20 footer.

Quick.... anyone remember the line honors winner from last years Statue Race?

The GT300 has an open class and the Overall Trophy is up for grabs every year to the fastest production boat.

T Boats still rule......

No, but Beth doesn't want one.

I talked to Jack at perf. cat today and it seemed that it's still in the idea phase( he had alot of "maybes"), but it's targeted to Europe and it'll be wide and fast and supposed to be more affordable than an M-20.
Take that for what it's worth.
Todd

Not if it's 10 or 12 feet wide.

Didnt Trey win the statue race last year on the N20?

Not last year - it was like 2007.

Also - this boat won't be price competitive with the N20 so we shouldn't have anything to fear.

You are so wise and enlightened!

European champs just cancelled - only 6 entries!

Whoa! What a fall and how very sad.

If you took a Tornado and made it 8'6" wide, what effect would that have on it's sailing abilities, and how would it then compare to the benchmark, I20? I would love to see a true F20 class, if there are a whole lot of T's around with no place to go, rather than scrap them, why not just change out the beams and go racing against the I20's, boat for boat? OR, are the T's too light? What do they weigh?

The numbers are so close, on the West Coast, we raced heads up (N20 v Tornado). When the wind was light this seemed ok but when the wind piped up, the difference was pretty big in favor of the Tornado.

Course record for the statue race is held by an N20 as well.

What a great idea. It would be a shame to see those racehorses just retired forever. It would take little work but you could start a new class like "water spouts" or "twisters".

That's exactly what the P-19 was . Randy wanted a road width Tornado. I guess the length was paired down to sync up with the righting moment and rig.
I think you'd be wasting time and money and fragmenting an already dwindling fleet, cutting up a Tornado. Not to mention it'd be grounds for a serious beatdown. The Tornado is the way it is for a reason.

I'm just say'n, if you really want to get an F20 class up and running, and you already have all these great boats, why not use them? Yeah, it might take a little time, effort and creativity but the Tornado guys are pretty good at that already.

Add in the P 19's and the Hobie 20's (with a "F20 class size" spinny) and you have a F20 class ready to go.

Reg White did. It's called a Hurricane 5.9. OK, Hurri is only 8 feet wide with slightly different hull shape; but that was the plan...

As said, similar to P19

I think the addition of another wider 20' boat is a great. My thought is that if you create an F20 class, it should be 10' or 12' wide. Other than that you just have a long F18. My boat only takes less than a couple extra hours to set up and less than that to tear down. The 10' wide boats can be trailered without disassembly.

Wider is Better!!!

And you could call it a P19

If you could develop telescoping beams that were as rigid as standard beams, you could more easily breakdown a Tornado. I think that I am finally going to get a tilt trailer this year so that I sail the Tornado more often.

Problem is that you add weight for no real gain as you still have to take the tramp off.

Takes an hour longer to bolt a wide boat together.

IMO, the ultimate 20 footer is:

20 feet long
12-3 feet wide (M20 Vampire 12).
120-140kg (The M20V is 142).
Mainsail 21sqm ish
Jib 6ish
Spi 26-27ish
Curved Plates
T foil Rudders

Why do you think this?

There is no evidence that anyone wants to give up anything to form a F20 class. The idea has been tried and it failed, restarting it in the USA has also failed. A consensus around a common standard never evolved.

The N20's would prefer to race one design in distance and buoy racing and class members have said that they don't care if the F18 is as fast as the N20's. They don't want a sail measurement rule which would drive constant change in the sails. They want to be a SMOD class for the big boys. They do not see level racing with Olympic Tornado's as racing on a fair playing field.

The other 20 footer class... the Olympic Tornado is just praying for the IOC to raise it from the dead boat society in the Olympic medal decision to be made this August.

There are no US long distance races that is driving the owning of boats you want to race for line honors. The existing line honor boats in the USA are the Supercat 22 (several of them), the two Marstrom 20's and the single CFR 20 stay home in Florida and don't compete in the races open to them around the country. They all can be thumped by a well sailed RC 27 which enters the race.

In the EU, the Marstrom 20, Ventilo 20, Eagle 20, Macca's Super Taipan and various modifications to the Tornado. battle for the two man distance race line honor lead. It makes sense for Nacra to build a boat to compete in these races.

Remember, also that the EU has a viable 28 foot class. The Ventilo M2 Class. (three man teams). A viable 35 foot class, the Decision 35 and of course, the Ishares 40 class. (4 person teams). These boats will win line honors if allowed to enter.

BUT...wouldn't the T foil rudders be working against the curved plates? Unless they were trimmed to lift the back of the boat. I was under the impression they (T foil rudders) are there to keep from pitchpoling, or are you saying the whole boat should be a foiler? That would be very nice to see!

Mark, you are so right, I don't know what I was thinking...must be the meds. ;^) Have a good 4th.

T foils to prevent "sailing over" the curved plates.

a 20 x 12 or 13 platform is going to create a LOT of drive down wind. The big stuff it's going to be a challenge to keep the mast out of the racetrack.

"The big stuff it's going to be a challenge to keep the mast out of the racetrack."

I agree with that idea, but we just don't get that kind of wind and waves over here in the states. Maybe up on the north west pacific coast, it gets pretty windy and rough up there, but not so much on the east coast or in southern Cal.

I thought I had seen big wind and waves, having grown up on the seacoast of New Hampshire, just about 50 miles north of Boston. But then I saw the waves (20' plus) and winds (blowing 65) in Brighton and Dublin...WOW, you guys get some really nasty stuff over there sometimes! I've always thought that's why the I20 didn't catch on over there.

20 foot Tornado foiler? They flew/sailed them in UK in 1973. Called Icarus I. International Hydrofoil Society archives has the whole/old story.

I thought I had seen big wind and waves, having grown up on the seacoast of New Hampshire, just about 50 miles north of Boston. But then I saw the waves (20' plus) and winds (blowing 65) in Brighton and Dublin...WOW, you guys get some really nasty stuff over there sometimes! I've always thought that's why the I20 didn't catch on over there.


How about south of the Isle of Wight when they had the combined Nacra Tornado UK National at Ventnor. That was the day my old N 6 entered the "green room" somewhere around Bembridge Ledge (maype?) East of Wight on the way back to Stokes Bay-wildest small boat sailing of my life. My second wake up that day. The first was when Wil Sunnuck's T nearly took my head off in a P S (My fault). I am looking to meet informed 6.0 NA jockeys here in Houston or Austin Texas as I work up my dry stored for 10 years Nacra whilst considering what big boys boat to replace it with (or even if I can be bothered). Who has a used square top Nacra 6.0NA main for me to buy? If it works for me I may well just keep it as F20 seems to be going nowhere fast

Actually, before you look into upgrading the rig... or boat.

Take a look at the races that you might want to do.... The scene is quite a bit different now. Pick the option that gets you to the events that you would schedule.

If you're in Texas, we still have a good group of N20's. Infact 9 are registered to do Ruff Riders Labor Day Weekend. There are a few N6.0s in the area but not really racing. They do show up to do the distance stuff sometimes. Cat Alley is the place where the 6.0 still fits in great. Lots of Nacras there on the weekends.

Todd Bouton had a square top 6.0NA main on his 6.0. He sold the boat to someone in the Houston area who seems to sail it with the pin head main - so the square top may be available. You could post on tcdyc to try and track it down.

I read this forums for some years and never feld the urge to post a topic but I think this is interesting, I visited Nacra Europe today to pick up some new lines; ended up talking to Peter [Tech director] and another [english speaking]guy about this extreme wide [my guess wider then 3 mtr/10ft] due to the fact that they were working/discussing on the boat holding a [big!] curved daggerboard. They were not giving out to much info but when I asked if this had to do with a new boat, both guys were laughing. The boat istself was [other then the hulls] brand new, the mast which was laying on the ground was way longer then anything standard. when I took a picture they were relaxed about[I couldn't upload them, I will try later]. All in all not so spectacular but later I found out [via the workshop guys] that the "other guy"was a designer from melvin & morelli!!

what do you all think?

3 pictures

your pictures are not coming through.

does anyone know to shrink my pictures under 100K [whick seems to be the upload limit], I do not understand, they were made with my [rather old] cell phone

Goto this link; http:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
and download the "image re-sizer" ,then when you right click it gives you an option to re-size( 4 sizes to choose from) and put it in the same folder with the original without changing the original. I think someone on here turned me on to it it works great.
Or you can send them to me in an Email,and I'll shrink and post them. I'll PM you.

thanks for the tip

#3

Maybe my perspective is skewed (It's been known to be) but that looks like a stock 20. The boards are interesting.

the picture does not show it correctly, but it is really wide, the cat track was clearly custom made and also the tiller bar was non-stock

I will go back tommorow to take some additional pictures [5 minutes drive]

Are the hulls shaped different from the current Nacra 20?

The guy in the brown teeshirt is Bobby Kleinschmit, who works at Morelli and Melvin. He lives about five blocks from me. Good to see he's still getting out and about and his Moth project hasn't turned him into a mushroom.

He's one of these dudes on 1134.

From what I can tell in those pics, they are 20 hulls strapped to a wide beam - and yes, I'm very interested in those boards.

That'd be awesome. There's alot of folks interested in this.
Thanks.

Those are the banana boards used on the M20s, I would be surprised if they would actually use those though.

Maybe its because its early, but that does not look like a 3m beam to me.
Friend of mine sails a 3m wide Fox and you can easily tell the difference, but this does not look extra wide.

The guy in the blue is Peter Vink, the sail maker [performance sails]

Tony: It might not be 3m but its definitely wider than a standard 8'6" beam.

I'll call Trizzle.. he'll know all about it.

just came back from Nacra Europe, talked to the guys in the shop:
The 20 ft which is on the picture is used as a test platform for a /the new boat

it is almost 3mtr wide/ they said that the new boat will be even wider!!

the dagger foils are not the M20's but close and they are experimenting with these foils
"
I saw a couple of masts which they are testing with- huge

they refer to the boat internally as babyzilla, when I asked why, the response was that the boat will win any pissing contest on the beach and on the water and will come standard with bragging rights

Were the mast carbon or aluminum?

aluminium - looked like large F18 mast

The big trophy goes to fastest corrected time, and the Clock goes to fastest elapsed time...what's the "Overall Trophy"?

The big trophy. The same one it's been from the start, based on corrected time.

Morrelli lets it slip..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08kbdOmrY-0

Curved boards too!

saw the design today at Nacra Europe - very very nice / spectaculare

pics or it didn't happen. Some dude on SA is insisting that its being built at Nacra US.

that might be, but I'm just teling you what I saw on a computer screen today

SO what did it look like?

$10 says an infusion-esque hull modified and stretched to 20' - aluminum mast with a double spreader rig...and curved daggerboards. Current Nacra rudder system with the current infusion rudders.

codename: Confusion 20

Hey Nacrasailor,
What is your name and where do you live?

My name I Michael and I live [+sail] here in Scheveningen, The Netherlands, about 5 minutes [by bike] from the harbour were Nacra Europe is

I think I read JC's blog about sailing an M20 with curved boards.

Since they're fixed (with respect to angle of attack) does that cause big issues on the transition(s) (up/down)?

I think they have adjustible banana boards on the giant multis now to avoid the pop-up/drive-down stuff...?

Nacra dealers will be informed today, I'll see if I can get a copy

Press Release - 16-10-2009 – for immediate release

Nacra is proud to announce the upcoming launch of its new flagship, the NACRA F20 Carbon. This latest addition to the Nacra range is a new high performance 20 ft catamaran.

Peter Vink, head of the development team: “ The whole development team is very proud to share the first information about the new Nacra F20 Carbon. We have been working with the best-of-the best in the maritime industry to ensure that this is truly a “king of the beach” boat. It will be bigger, wider and faster than anything in-or outside its class”. Although nicknamed “Babyzilla” by the team, it will still be a boat that can be sailed by the local club racer and be able to win at it’s first outing at the club race.

Peter Vink:”We took all the best features and characteristics of our current F18 Infusion, which has won the last two F18 Worlds, and applied it to the new boat, as an example: the rudder system, mast extrusion, beams and some other small bits and pieces, this way we have proven technology on the new F20 Carbon”.

The development was done by world renowned designers, Morrelli & Melvin for hulls, Nils Bunkenburg, A cat guru for the foils, Performance Sails for the rig & sails combined with the in-house knowledge at Nacra.

Development and testing has been underway for over 18 months, 2 boats were fitted with both straight daggers and with foils to allow the team to compare; a third boat, a Nacra 20 was fitted with the wide beams and the new rig. The 3 test platforms allowed the development team to test in the real world without revealing to much about this new boat, so they could adjust and fine-tune the design.

A variety in masts, mast hardware positioning and different sail cloth and shapes has been tested. The new hull shape which has been created, starting with a wave piercing bow forming a diamond shape hull stretching backwards into a “square-ish” transom, is of mayor importance due to the combination with the curved daggerboard. Although the basic shape was chosen, several adjustments were made driven by new technology [computer fluid dynamics] and knowledge which was gathered by Melvin & Morrelli while working on the Americas Cup project for BMW ORACLE.

Pete Melvin:”It is not a coincidence that the hull shape of the new F20 Carbon shows resemblance with the floats of the AC boat, we were able to take the knowledge we gained at the AC project and scale it down to the F20 Carbon. The most noticeable and distinctive feature is the chine that runs from the bow backwards on the hull allowing the water to flow away from the hull. Combining the chine and wave piercing bow with the upper deck shape reduces drag piercing through the waves both upwards and downwards”.

Regular production will start any moment and the first boats will be ready to be delivered to the customers in the first months of 2010.

Please see attached document for technical data

New Nacra 20 footer specs

10.5' wide? Does it come with tilt trailer options?

I sail a N20 one design, so I asked If I couls still use my old trailer, they said that they are working on a tilt trailer options and a conversion kit for "normal"trailer

Cool!

I wish them the best on this project. It sure looks like a winner!!!

Bob

Wow!! Fully sic...cant wait to see one go.

so this is the spec for any F20?

I don't like how Nacra keeps calling its boats FXX to confuse people. There is no such thing as a Formula 20 or Formula 17 box rules. There are Formula 18 (the infusion is a nice Nacra representative of the class) and Formula 16 box rules. F17 and F20 don't mean squat these days (yes, there used to be some try to make a Formula 20 class, but it fizzed out).

It could be worse, they could have called it "Nacra B Class", which would (further) complicate any attempt to revive the B Class.

I cant see any resemblance to DogZilla, or is it just me?

No, but I see a WildCat chine . . .

And those boards look exactly like the Marstrom ones.

One interesting detail is the airfoil shaped snuffer.

Apart from that, I see an incomplete and rather conventional design, with curved asymmetrical foils replacing normal boards.

No rudder foil or other means to control boat attitude. Also, no indication of an angle of attack control for the foils.

I guess M&M still don't believe in (or don't understand) the S foil, which makes more sense for a cat than the C foils seen on this boat.

S foils are to complicate to controle on a beach cat

bunkenberg did these

It looks to me this is flat snuffer hoop design as used on other boats: it leads to a flat bag in mesh. I don't think this is going to be a carbon airfoil shape. Nacra has been using those for years.

For example, on a capricorn:

Come on guys Nacra is pushing ahead with with what they see as the next step ahead in catamaran developement. Even if you feel that it not a boat that is for you, you have to give then some support for this move at a time when cat sailing has just been dealt a fair old kick in the teeth. Small town - small mind or what!
I love the look of this bit of kit and it should appeal to sailors that look foward to something a bit scarry and challenging. the rest you of still have the option of sticking with ........... enough said.
For you info, it used to be called iF20 not F20.

the zilla floats recently got replaced

i think you'll find that the plumb bow 1st gen zilla floats are very simialar

Santa, for Christmas I want my two front teeth and a new NACRA F-20 Carbon. If this does not fit in you sleigh, I'll come pick it up.

Are these being made in the US or Europe?

Seriously Nacra Europe guys... "Sports and Fun Catamarans" does not make sense in English. Stop wasting the money on the decals that everyone that speaks English removes.

Ok, but... Not all that impressed.

"Carbon" and it still weighs in at 375!?!?!
Only 21m^2 on a 33' Al mast.

Where's the "wow" factor? Beam and daggers, that's it.

Really, not trying to be a downer, but... for what the N20 costs these days, what's this one going to run? 40ish? If you want to be first to finish on a 20' boat, looks like the M20, T or CFR will still be king, but I do suspect that this will be hot on their heels. Don't get me wrong, it's cool, but...

(edited b/c I didn't see the carbon hulls and I upped the price by 10k b/c of that)

Now... nobody else has mentioned this, could it be their bid for an Olympic replacement cat?

it says "less than" 375 pounds which leads me to believe the first one that pops out of the mold will be weighted and thats what the weight will be.

Will, as for the mast/SA ratio, I can only imagine that its a high aspect rig.
mast height/mainsail area ratio for F20: 0.48571428571428571428571428571429

For F18: 0.53823529411764705882352941176471

I don't know if the F20 number includes the surface area of the wingmast itself, I know it does for the F18. So what yo u might infer from this spec is that the new F20 is not the light-air monster the N20 is, but it could probably handle the more predominant reaching conditions found in distance races better than our beloved N20's can.


As for S-foils, I'd like to see some of the A cat guys fiddle around with them first before someone put them on a production beach cat.


Cost I've heard two ways, $30k with no sails, and then not even $30k WITH sails. So I guess we're just going to have to wait on an official number from a Nacra dealer. I'll call mine later this afternoon

Jack said awhile back the target price was less than a M-20.

40k is still 10k less than an M20 and the M20 doesn't have sails at that price. (price based on last time I checked Marstroms website and at that time the dollar was stronger than it is now)

Price is 19,747 euro. + tax

the prototype with inter20 hulls was already faster than the M20!

So, is the consensus that you CAN build a 20' too light?

sheez, just too much cash for a 20' cat. Who can afford to sail them? There will never be enough boats in a region to support the class. I don;t get the marketing plan.....

If a multi is selected for 2016, it would likely have to go through a selection like the T did when it was first selected and then selected again when the with the "sport" rig in 1999. It's possible that this was built for that purpose, but I think it was to win Round Texel or other races like that.

I don't think so. The CFR is 245lbs at 8.5' wide and 24m^2 on a M20 mast. It needs more weight to make it go, so you can't sail it light, but with 375+ on board it FLIES! Light in the platform and rig means we can (and have to) carry the weight where it matters but it pays off.

I wonder which target audience they had in mind when they where designing the new Nacra, it seems too heavy for a line-honours winner, compared to an M20 that is.
Although in heavy winds the added weight might be an advantage.
It looks more like a handicap winner to challenge the F18s.

What I find interesting is that Alingi has gone back from S to straight boards, any ideas why that would be?

More renders: dealer newsletter

I was talking more about the Marstrom - but I think that falls in a similar category.

Who knows, choose your theory. Could be anything from a hoax to make BOR think the boards dont work to the fact that they dont work.
S boards are coold though. I like the theory behind them.

No!!!!

William Sunnocks Vampire (wide M20 with Bigger rig) is 144KG. THe Nacra looks lardy when comparing!

I'd still want a go!!!!

The C-class boats are still lighter larger (and more expensive, and fragile)

See the 11th post of this thread. It's supposed to be a winner take all line honors boat. Sort of like William Sunnuck's.They are not building it for a US market,If there happens to be one ,I'm sure they'll promote it here also.

Says a lot about how Nacra is doing financially to be launching a boat like this in this economy. Most boat builders wouldn't dare attempt as costly as a project as this.
How do they afford this? Could it be possible that they have had HIGH profits on certain items?

They are "alays one step ahead" not sure if any of you caught that in the dealer pdf.

So you would prefer some 'new' roto-molded c--p for the rental market would you? surely its a good thing that they are pushing ahead and turning a few heads?

The company has to make money somewhere to stay in business. I'd prefer it'd be split between rotomolded pieces of c--p AND all their fiberglass boats (F18) than just on the fiberglass boats (F18)
As cool as this boat is, I don't feel like paying extra on my F18 to fund this project that they'll probably never sell enough of to break even.
Just like others said, not to be a pessimist.. this is a cool boat, i'm excited for it! Just skepticale on if it's good for Nacra customers.

A little off topic but a buddy is trying to get new decks for his N20 and was told about a 2-3month wait since they are closing shop in the US and shipping everything to Europe. I guess that sums up their feelings about the US market.

So that leaves, Isotope, Shark, Evo (A cat) and Hobie 16 as the only NA built glass boats. These are all built for the NA market.

You would have thought that a weak dollar would have made US production more efficient... even with the transportation cost issues.

You forgot the F16 Falcon and the US built XJs

Ah... that was that nagging thought... thanks anybody else?

Still the big questions...

Where will it race? How will it race eg. PN, SCHRS, One Design (how long before critical mass forms)

Look for pictures and more Nacra Europe : http://www.nacraeurope.com