Alinghi's catamaran revealed today!

So far we have a bow shot. It's a cat at 90x90 with a 50 meter mast and it seems to be they said it weighs only 3 tons. Should hopefully have a few more pictures around 11pm tonight (soon).

Sweet bows! I see a trend.

I got the whole thing......

Always wondered about shortening a FX1 to fit into the F12 class

3 tons??

Wow... the thing must be held together by fishing line.

remember team phillips?

Wow

More pics out this morning. There's some considerable doubt with the 3 ton weight...perhaps that's just the hull and beam platform. Decent article up at Sail-World by Gladwell who has really been keeping on top of all things AC related (although he wasn't invited to the closed "embargoed" press release by Alinghi...presumably because he tends to favor the American/BMWO perspective).

Also note that they have also released info about the Russian helicopter they are bringing in to lift the boat to the water (and presumably air lift it all the way to the Mediterranean since Switzerland is land-locked). If it only weighs 3 tons, why did they need the biggest heavy lift helicopter in the world?

Gladwell's Line

A- cat wave piercing hull coupled with Hobie 18 front cross bar!

To cope with the windage on it when they move it around. yes, it's 3 tonnes to pick up, but

a, once it moves you have drag to contend with.
b, once it is in the fair, even the slughtest wind will have a serious effect on the whole opearation.

I've lost track, so someone put it all together for me please. The BMO AC boat is a Trimaran and the Alinghi boat is a Cat, right?

Or is BMO now going to build a Cat to race the AC?

Should be an interesting shake down period! How many times do you think they will crash?

(stupid question I know, "Once" is the answer, and then they'll go back to racing mono's!)

The last time we saw DoGzilla, it was a trimara. its been in a shed now for quite some time, and the speculation is that either DZ is radically changed at this point or there's a completely new boat being launched. The latter seems to be the consensus opinion since BMWO has been curiously evasive regarding the CHR for DZ to this point...

I wouldn't say they've been curiously evasive...I would say they simply haven't reached their final configuration yet so they could present the measurement certificate. Alinghi has been trying to make it look like they've been "overly evasive" about it but there's historical precedence of the CHR being presented only weeks before the event. The Deed says "as soon as possible".

Word is that BMWO has a catamaran in the shed that we'll probably see sometime in August but only after Alinghi announce the venue for the match. They'll probably trial the cat against the trimaran to figure out which boat to bring to the table. Personally, I'm wondering how they don't pitchpole a catamaran that is 90' x 90' with a length to width ratio of 1:1 AND a bow sprit that extends 40' in front of the bows. Rumor is that Alinghi has water ballast but it could be a sticking point if they have to use combustion engines to fill the tanks.

BMWO took delivery of their new Hall spars mast earlier this past week and it is 6' from leading edge to trailing edge and is at least 180' tall.

So where is the wing? Surely one of the teams have a solid wing in a shed somewhere that they will whip out as a last surprise.

That 6' wide mast is going to look like a wing, a Glider Wing! But 180' tall? Ouch!

I hope it stays upright.

Alinghi seems to be contemplating a rigid sail and no foresail, like an oversized C Class. Simple, fast and effective.

If things stayed as they are today, we would see an oversize/overpowered ORMA Open 60 racing against an aversize/overpowered C Class.

Note that it is relatively easy to add a central hull to a wide cat as well as removing the central hull from a tri, so both sides can choose to go either way.

The key decision is between a rigid wing requiring no central structure/hull, against a rig with foresail, requiring the hull/structure.

Chances are that we'll see a match between two 90 x 90 cats with rigid wings and without foresails. They sail upwind all the time anyway, so a big wing is all they need to dump tons of hardware and crew.

Best thing is that we already know the name of this race: The Monster Little America's Cup.

Alinghi will have soft sails at first. They stated they are working on a rigid wing and will see which is better/easier to manage. BOR's new boat will probably be a catamaran and lord knows what we're going to see there. It's possible we might see some of it sometime on Monday.

David Hubbard is working for Ellison, Duncan MacLane for Bertarelli.
Guess what...

Ohh YEaahhhh!!!

Finally,
America's Cup using cutting edge technology. We need to see lifting foils...

My bet; that will never happen. We will see foils that will provide some lift but nothing that will clear the boat from the water. While lifting foils work on super lightweight and low aero-drag moths, on anything of any size lifting foils have not yet proven to get to weather efficiently enough to be an advantage around a technical course. They tend to be more of a "drag" upwind as the boat can't get airborne at high angles of attack and turn out to be a source for a lot of slowness. Yes, Hydroptere absolutely rocks, but she doesn't go to weather well at all...all video you see of her is a very deep beam reach since she generates such incredible apparent wind.

I am sure Doug Lord wont agree with your statement. LOL

I agree. Bruce foils yes, not full lifting foils. But sure would be nice to see those multi-million dollar budgets focused on flying...

Careful, the mere mention of that name may unleash his furry on this forum.

Release his FURRY? (Not sure I like the sound of that...)

Furry what?

FOIL, of course

that's where the cry of horror

FOILED AGAIN

came from

Doug Lord may not, but I do !

Wouter

The comments about crew safety if one goes over was pretty poignant.

How do you fall roughly 9 stories 'safely'? Bungee?

I like the VX 40 because of the mesh trampoline allowing crew to hold on if they go over. Perhaps something like this will be used on the mega-monster-giant boats?

Big boats tend to be faster than small boats, so the big cats should become foilborne in less wind than Moths - provided taht their total density (total boat weight/total boat volume) is lower than that of a Moth. For comparison, the total density of an ORMA Open 60 is more or less the same as styrofoam.

If the venue would be in an area of strong winds, foils would certainly be used for stability and very likely for 100% foilborne sailing downwind. Banana foils to assist stability could be seen in BMW Oracle since it saw daylight.

On the other hand, if the race will be in a light wind area - as Alinghi's design seems to indicate - the banana foils won't be necessary and 100% foilborne downwind sailing will be unlikely.

Let's wait and see.

It is a very long way from a 11 foot Moth to a 90 foot Multicupper. Extrapolating any data or experience from the moth to a Dogzilla's is fantasy.

To give an example; the 90 ft dogzilla's will not even encounter significant form drag all the way up to 14.6 knots; a speed at which the Moth sailors will be crying with exitement. Afterall their cross-over point is already to be found at 5.1 knots.

The dogzilla's are expected to go close to 30 knots and that means a wing loading that is at least 4 times that of a 15 knot Moth. All well outside the scope of extrapolation.

If foiling was such a magic trick then the last C-class challenge would not have seen the full foiling version being amputated with a grinder.

Moths were VERY limited in the waterline length and maximal attainable power (due to limited width) and there foiling allowed for a significant jump in performance (about 20%); however in the Australian portsmouth rating they are still on a par with the Hobie 16.

Another lesson in the difference in relative performance compared to absolute performance.

Wouter

Wouter,

I just loved this quote "however in the Australian portsmouth rating they (foiling moths) are still on a par with the Hobie 16."

I think that some of the work done with the SYZ foiler could come into play here. I do not think it will, but they sail in the same series of races the EB does and have connections to Alinghi. Time will tell though. I think it would be a huge project to take what SYZ has learned over all their trial phases and apply it to a catamaran this size.

From the horses mouth.
"In fact Vrolijk isn’t convinced foilers are any faster and they did the research. In the early stages they employed designer Sebastien Schmidt to do a study on what it would take to make Bertarelli's 41ft cat, Le Black, foil and they also had a meeting with the L’Hydroptere team who were keen for them to build a bit inshore version of their foiler tri. According to Vrolijk their VPP has shown the foilers to be occasionally as fast, but no faster than their cat with its long and exceeding fine hulls.

“This system is not easy to put on two foils, so you have to put it on more foils and then you add it up and it doesn’t work. It flies, but it is not fast! Plus all the problems with controlling the foils. Maybe in 10 years….”

They're using the wrong experts. They should have hired Ketterman...

Mike

build it and they will come...

Wouter,

The C Class has limited dimensions and limited sail area, while the current AC boats have limited dimensions and unlimited sail area. This contributes to make extrapolation unreasonable. The moth is indeed a special case, also unreasonable to extrapolate.

I think the 90ft X 90ft platform could benefit from foils that increase stability (Bruce foils), allowing for more sail area - which is unlimited - to be carried in that same platform.

Alinghi ressearched hydrofoil configurations very seriously, including that of my boat, while everyone knows that BMW Oracle already used banana foils. I suggest we wait for a while before discarding foils.

I'm on record for several years now as believing in bruce foils in partial lift uses and not believing in full foiling for larger craft that race normal courses.

So we agree actually.

Wouter

Nice. No doubt. I'll tell Dan and Greg that the next time I see 'em that they should go work for those guys.

Check out this gem:



J

You gotta sail the Tri-foiler to believe it!!!

100% pure sail-gasm!!!!

My favorite is were hes racing the power/speed boat and hes coasting along and the power boat is getting beat all to heck

WOW!!! I want one!

awesome!
what was the name of the cat that just flipped durring speed record attempts ?

Hydroptere?

Mcquarie Innovation "exploded" its wing last year and should also be of interest.

those are both cool... but not the one i was thinking of.
It was a cat... with the sail on one side and the skipper on the other...

Think you are taking about this one


Doug

This is the one where it comes apart

Doug

Thats the one, thanks Doug

... i thought they were closer to the 50 knot mark

Andrew:

This is the record run. Better than 50 knots when she came apart!!!!!



Doug

YES THATS IT.... thanks Doug. I was just talking about it with my crew on Sunday durring a slow part in a race.

Andrew:

Glad to help. Pretty bad blow over. I am pretty good at searching the net.

Doug

So, what do you do at that point?? Sheet out???? Nah, Hell, sail it like somebody else is paying the bills!!! GO FOR IT!!!!

So did that count as a world speed record? even though he landed on his head?

crap.

http://twitpic.com/9opkq/full

talk about "flying a hull"

how big are the beach wheels for this thing?

They use the wheels from this dump truck

Andrew:

I think that is one of the Extreme 40's being moved around.

Doug

Doug: no its not.

Its CheeseZilla

is it me or does it seem like there is a little lack of volume up front for downwind?

I'm sure that people much smarter than you or I have figured out exactly how much volume they need up there to keep her from going tits up.

That is definitely the Swiss' America's cup catamaran (somewhere between 90 and 115' long) being lifted by one of the largest helicopters in the world. To put that in scale, here's a picture of the Russian MI26 picking up an American Chinook helicopter (you know the Chinook? Our heavy lift military chopper that carries tanks?).

yeah... i originally had some text in there about how I haven't a clue, but figured it went without saying.

They're apparently relying on lifting boards that are located in the hulls forward of the main beam to help keep the bows out of the water. Agree, the bows are quite thin considering the boat is nearly as wide as it is long. My personal opinion is that it will probably work OK but it makes the margin of error even more unforgiving if pressed hard. These things will be capable of traveling at speeds that will cavitate foils. Additionally, having the boards that far forward in the hulls will not help the boat's tacking ability.

These guys are in "uncharted waters" here so it is possible they might have -miscalculated- what they need up front. Remember when Play Station had it's bows "fixed" after a near pitchpole out in the big ocean? I realize they are not going to be racing these things in conditions like that or in the open oceans, but still, mistakes may have been made...

However, Bertarelli has quite a bit of experience racing rather large cats, so maybe he wants it just like that, it is he who picks the venue, right? Maybe he'll pick San Diego and built it for the light air prevelant there.

This settles it! I want to be a billionaire too damned!
I have figured out a way to do it before I turn 30, send me an envelope with $10K and I will share my secret!

That thing really is HUGE:

My biggest fear would be like what was happening to the Orma60 tri's that started putting t-foils on the rudders to keep the sterns down. They worked great but when they let go she goes tits up in a skinny second....



These forward foils are going to provide lift fine until the bows find themselves pointed down...then the foils only help to exacerbate the problem and keep things driving deeper.

They just need to trap farther back.

Is it me, or do those hull graphics make it look sort of like an Orca (the mammal, not the boat) jumping in the water?

Its funny because the monohull AC purists are all poo-pooing the graphics on CheeseZilla.

I think they look pretty cool.

free willy, baby!

dude, you're on your own. the second you said i do and sold your boat you knew willy would never be free again.

It is YOU

Step away from the monitor... and go outside for at least 5 minutes per day!

Looks like my A2 on steroids

It does a bit. The A2 kind of had a tendency to go U2 off the wind in a blow too.

No one thought the designers of the Fox were in thier right mind putting thier hulls on upside down, now all boats including monohulls are going for the wave piercing technology. These days the Tornado hulls look upside down!

Pic of Alinghi being splashed on S A Now

I'll probably be about the same size, too!

But there is a very small glimmer in this tunnel. The oldest kid is doing well with swimming lessons this week.

Can I tow an A cat with a Lotus Elise? I think the trailer would weigh more than the car.. but it would look awful sweet...

get an aluminum trailer if your worried.. they are very light

Honestly, i think it looks like an 18HT. this bad boy has a spin and last time i checked the wild and crazy A-cats don't fly a kite. whats up with that????? how can you sail a CAT and NOT have a spin. If i had 2 logs i would put a spin on it. flying downwind, trapped out....nuff said

You have to experience it to understand...when you can still fly a hull downwind - you just don't need a spinnaker.

I don't think most folks realize the the power to weight of the A class. 18 feet, 150 sq ft sail and only 165lbs! Verrry efficient.

the power to weight is impressive however alinghi built something that looks like an A-cat with a spin pole... like an HT. its also in SUI where the HT is a robust class. I suspect they will pick a venue that suits them. wouldn't it be a sight to see if they chose a lake in Switzerland.

i wouldn't consider "need" as a prerequisite for getting a spinnaker.

The lower weight and shorter width of Alinghi's cat probably translate into an advantage in light wind and sea conditions, but the Deed requires that the venue takes place at sea.

They will probably choose a calm secluded bay in the Mediterranean, with high statistic probability of low winds and as difficult to fly from the US as possible. Maybe somewhere in Greece? Anyone knows calm windless bays in the Mediterranean?

Don't they have a deadline approaching to choose the venue?

Whatever the venue it has to be "on ocean courses, free from headlands..." and the course will alternate between a 20 mile to windward and return and an equilateral triangle course (with equal legs) of a total 39 mile length with the first leg to windward. Bays are out (which kinda baffles me this light air looking thing...I think they intend for the beam forward banana foils to make it work in the ocean).

Yes - August 8th is when we'll hear it.

What happens if Larry wins and he takes it to San Fran?

They would probably race out of San Diego (point loma) but they can get to the ocean from San Fran bay!

However, Larry Ellison has already indicated that if he wins, they'll probably go back to Valencia, Spain..but it's hard to tell how much of that statement was a PR move as Alinghi still had pretty good support in Valencia because they felt that Alinghi was their best chance at getting the AC back. Who knows?

Either way that's too bad. San Fran Bay is like a gigantic amphitheater. They'd have millions watching from shore. The moneyed set could set up their stately pleasure-domes on Alcatraz and chopper in. Such a deal!

Wait a minute, SF Bay is one of the best sailing venues in the world. On top of that, it lends itself beautifully to spectating. It's like a giant sailing arena. I cannot imagine a better venue to watch these monsters sail. Watching the old AC boats on SF Bay was awesome; the multi-monsters will be better. The only reason Ellison wouldn't immediately bring the cup to SF is facilities/infrastructure, which is far superior in Valencia. If the infrastructure can be put in, SF Bay would be incomparable.
edit: ooo hobie1616 beat me to the comment.

the issue is that this DOG multihull match is an expensive distraction from what they want to really do

which is to get the AC paying for itself and and supporting a huge contingent of international sailors, support crews and world wide sponsors

to do that they need to get a monohull race going as soon as possible after it's decided who's in control and for that it's best they both agree to valencia for 2012 which already has all the facilities waiting

if larry wins the multi match and then wins a quickly arranged mono series in valencia then i'm sure everyone would expect the next defence to be in the usa

what they would really hate is if nz won the monohull challenge and then took the cup down south where there are no sponsors, only a tiny poor population to milk for t-shirts and inconvenient time zones for the prime time audience up north:o(

and horror of horror nz are reported to wanting to go back to a nationality rule!

The south of France, Corsica, Sardignia, Baleares and northern Italy and Spain on the med side are way too risky for wind conditions.

Greece is mostly too windy as well, unless you are in a lee of a big island where the problem is gusts.

South Italy and south of Spain are possible. Valencia, Naples or Palermo for example. Malta is probably too exposed, but would fit your criteria as being difficult to get to from the US.

Venice or other cities in the north of the adriatic sea are good candidates: Flat water, usual low wind, close to Switzerland... As close as a lake as you can be. If it's good enough for X40, why not AC multihulls...

Some place in northern Africa may be suitable, there are some nice quiet areas in Tunisia for example, but they may lack the necessary infrastructure to accommodate two 100ft multihulls monsters...

cuba, bay of pigs

That we be a real coup!

I hear the winds off somalia are nice...

Was that Chinese olympic venue "ocean"? How'd those giant boats do in light air, algae/seaweed and fog?

This ain't the Olympics, it's the AC. But didn't the Chineese have a mono in the last Louis Viton cup? Or was it just a Chineese helmsman on some other boat?

I've always been in favor of bringing back the "Nationality Rule" where the boat and all the crew must come from the named country. It was much more interesting then. Now it's just about who can buy the best skipper/crew.

I got it... Florida Bay sometime when it's flat (September?)

That would be cool, but I think they may have some issues with "skinny water". I wouldn't want to run aground on one of those monsters!

There you go! Hey, would their masts fit under the Skyway Bridge?? We could have Gulfport as the host club!

how deep is Tampa bay? 12?

Isn't the Azores pretty calm during certain seasons?

I'd pick Venice as well.
Besides matching the "technical" criteria, the advertising and touristic potential of the competition would be maximized, while the contrast between new and old would provide the opportunity for unique photos.

A famous light wind venue in the other hemisphere would be Rio... Just daylight dreaming.

It will also be grossly unfair. Afterall there is some federation of 50 states with the same number of inhabitants and marine resources like yards as the whole of Europe combined.

I would probably support such a nationality rule if each US state would be identified as a seperate entity.

Wouter

Aren't they already? You obviously don't live here.

Wouter, "Grossly Unfair"? How so? Most of our States could care less about America's Cup racing, they are much more into NASCAR. Only a couple places in our country, like San Francisco, San Diego, and of course the location where it was held for many years, Newport, RI would care to sponsor such an event.

I thought the Cup match itself, going back to the original, first race, was intended to put one country's Best ship and crew up against another country's Best ship and crew, see who wins. It's not a Handicap event. You don't get extra points for being a small country.

Still, the Aussies took the Cup from Dennis, and their country is what, 10% the population of the USA? Good on them! I was proud of them, they did it fair and square, using their own blood, and did a great job of it, they deserved the win. And then the Kiwi's, all great for the sport.

But then the checkbooks came out and it became just another big boat regatta as far as I'm concerned, with no national pride in the outcome.

I'll watch the big multi's this time, because I'm a multi fanatic like everyone here, but as far as who do I want to win?

I couldn't care less. I don't even know who is on what team, nor do I care. Bring back the Nationality rules and I will pay more attention. Until then, it's just a big, expensive, Multihull race and other than the two owners, who cares who wins?

The Swiss bought the Kiwi's, outspent on the program and then won.

Well, there you go. Thanks, I forgot about that already, which just proves my point.

More globalization?

Is Somalia going to put up a AC challenger?

You know they will be...wait for it...light!

;^)

The EU nationality arguably already exists, so a EU challenge is possible.

But that still wouldn't be fair to a nation like New Zealand or Brazil that are alot smaller then 300 to 350 million inhabitants.

Wouter

Since when was the americas cup about "fair play"?

Ok then the scene is Somalia, pirates board one Multi and take its captain hostage, the crew are made to support and race the next round of races winning out right with the Somalian flag flying, now we can say the America's Cup was "fair play" to them .

Hu. No. Sorry. The EU is not a nation. It's a comglomerate of nations with different views of what Europe is. Some use their own currency, some use the Euro, some have border control with other EU nations, some don't. The only thing we have in common is an open and free circulation of goods.

do they actually have a flag?

Wouter

Just a small remark:
Brazil has 200Million , some of the best sailors in the Worlds too: Torben Grael and Robert Scheidt for ie.

Note I´m Argentine (strong football rivalry against BR), here we have only 40 millions, but we could participate in next AC cup with the Matador crew + Lange + Juan K (Volvo 70) as designer.

But no better example than "little" New Zealand with world best sailor and rugbiers to realize that quantity and huge resources are not always the key.

I guess Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia could (finally) put the Mercosur nationality to some use in order to reduce the disadvantage.

In fact an EU AC challenge would probably be similar to a Mercosur soccer team... I think that an attempt to unify the soccer teams would actually trigger revolutions (note the plural), but then, French, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, etc. under the same flag just a few decades after the two world wars is a miracle already.

Are you the manufacturer of the Argentinean F18, who brought one to Paraguay a couple of months ago? If so, post something about your boats in another thread.

Yes Luis, I´m Martin
We founded the class with that boat and now we have AHPC about to build here, some Tigers imported and 4-5 Infusions already ordered.
Rigth now we have two crews in Belguim for the Worlds.

Open a new thread about F18 in South America, we need Brazil to join the fleet. I'm member of the F18 WC too, and John Williams was just named Vice-president for the Americas, some continental champiosnhip for next year must be organized.

Somethings are brewing right now and if everything goes as NOT planned add Ecuador to the mix and I am in.

I might, just MIGHT be relocating to Ecuador and taking my cap down there. Dont ask how I plan on doing it, but I will try to figure it out.

Where in Argentina do you folks sail out of?
Open a new thread in the F18 and im so there.

Just to keep this on topic, there's a great interview with Nigel Irens about the two AC boats here . Highly recommended reading.

Martin,

Sorry, I'm not the person you are looking for. I don't live in Brazil anymore and never sailed an F18.
Your man is Eduardo Penido in Rio. Last time I checked he was having plugs made for an A Class and an F18.
He won an Olympic gold medal in the 470 in 1980 and campaigned for the last Tornado olympics. He also represents North Sails in Rio and is the current chairman of the Rio de Janeiro Sailing Federation.
His company's website is http://www.edupenido.com.br/maxiboats.html - you will find reference to his F18 there.

Robi,

I've been once to Quito, capital of Ecuador, but never to Guayaquil, were people can sail. Quito is in the middle of the country, no sailing is possible.
Checking the website of their ISAF MNA (http://www.sailecuador.org/) I found no reference to multihulls of any kind, only 7 affiliated clubs and 7 affiliated classes.
I have a close Ecuatorian non-sailing colleague, so in case you want to ask about other things just send a PM.

All the best,

And the Kiwis will still show up the rest of the world.

This is ridiculous. The nationality rule is a good rule. It applies quite well to other sports like football (the soccer variety) and rugby at an international level.