F18 - New . . .

version of the Capricorn?

Nope.... There wont be new new "version" of the Capricorn... or even a new Capricorn.

Are you someone in the know? If so, how so? Another forum says there are new molds delivered. Maybe they. . .

...don't want us to know a new version is coming because they are afraid that people will wait for it and not buy the one currently sitting at the dealership?
Its either that or...

AUS-CAT has 2 posts, registered 7 days ago. We have never heard from this person before. Maybe just a rabble-rouser.

In the F16 forum he already told us he works for AHPC.

Hi Guys -

Greg Goodall has been talking quite openly about development for both the Viper and the Capricorn. Greg told me over a year ago and in the company of several other F18 sailors that he was making some changes to the Capricorn which included raising the back beam 40mm or so, and possibly moving the back beam aft a touch based on his son, Brett's, suggestion that the Viper's back beam placement made it easier to trap out downhill. Like with the previous boats out of Greg's shop, there will be testing, and it will take a long time before changes like that hit the market - I seem to recall Greg saying 2011. In the mean time, there have been quite a few improvements to the Capricorn already - I had a 2006 and I noted several changes when I got a 2009. The mast base is different, the diamond wires are internal, the rudder shape is updated, there is a new mainsail and spinnaker cut that required me to change how I sail a little bit, and Greg eliminated some blocks here and there in favor of finished thimbles instead.

Surely everyone who sees any of the F18s out of the box from year to year can agree that there are changes each season. It is the nature of the class and something that you either like (as I do) or dislike. If you want a boat, buy it. You can wait for next season's innovations or you can race this season and follow the trend next season. My experience has always been that stick time this season will make you far faster than buying the latest-greatest next season - the changes are just too subtle. There hasn't been any kind of an obsoleting leap forward in the class - fer Chrissake, the Tiger's still doing just fine in the right hands and it's old enough to drive a car in the US.

Anyway - it is awfully easy to say there is a new Cap on the way. That has been true since the first one was built. And Greg doesn't make a secret of these things - buy him a beer, or better, a rummie. Stick it in his hand and stand back. You're not likely to understand everything he says, but he'll try to explain it... freakin' engineers.

As far as boats available in the US? I think there is only one 2009 left for sale in CT. We had three 2009s come into CA and they were pre-sold. One stayed here a bit after the buyer took delivery from the East Coast stock instead due to some scheduled travel constraints, but that one is now gone, too. The idea that dealers are trying to keep secrets to unload backed-up supplies just doesn't apply to AHPC.

Great post John.

I haven't really followed AHPC's F18 program, but I know in all my dealings with them they've been very open and insightful. They are only satisfied delivering products that are fully developed. In the past I've picked up the phone and called Greg Goodall, and he's always been very helpful and insightful; I'm sure anyone interested in their boats could do likewise.

Rabble-rouser... for sure, but I also dabble in sailing and boat design for AHPC.

I'll just second what John said, and say that when we start testing something new it wont take long for you guys to see is... there are eyes everywhere and there's plenty of guys on these forums that sail on the same patches of water as us and they'll keep you updated

Hey AUS CAT, rabble rouser, welcome to the forums! It's always good to add some legit input to what can be a spiraling rumormill.

I can say that a few years back Jim Boyer stayed at my house for a couple of days and I got a good feel for what makes AHPC tick. In my opinion Greg and the employees at AHPC would never keep any secrets or anything like that. They are straight-up, solid business people, phenomenal sailors, and great engineers/ builders. They will openly and honestly discuss any shortcomings of their designs and build quality (which from what I've seen is top-notch).

Boyer was here (2004?) discussing with me the potential of Surf City importing their boats to the U.S., which didn't happen because I had just had opened my shop and didn't have much $$.

Every time I talk with Greg on the phone he is free with his time and open with his ideas.

AUS, if you see JB, tell him that I'm looking for a career change... maybe in the rainwater catchemnt business. Hope he's well. Haven't talked to him in years.

Anyway, AHPC is good.

J

"Nope.... There wont be new new "version" of the Capricorn... or even a new Capricorn."

i would take that post to mean the new boat won't be called a capricorn...

I've been looking closely at the F18's and been doing serious snooping. I have spoken to a sailor who has definately ordered a new Capricorn. It does make me hesitate as I wouldnt like to be trying to sell my Tiger now though part of that problem may be the price I've heard for their masts sails etc. On the service side I've always had good service from Nacra and AHPC, Hobie still havn't got back to me with a quote for their sails but thats probably because my local Hobie dealer doesn't give a **** about cats but loves canoes.
Fortunately Boyers not with AHPC anymore so we can assume a replacement hull can be found if ones needed.
regards

Jeff,

don't be hesitant the bottom has already fallen out of the Tiger and Nacra F18 prices and like your 5.7 its already fully devalued so if you bought either you'd be selling right back into the same market and unless you've all of a sudden become Glenn Ashby's closest rivel the choice of F18 won't effect your results. I wouldn't bother talking to Hobie about sails. When we replaced our Tiger sails I was able to get Main, Jib and Battens from Gashby for the same price Hobie wanted for a main without battens and I'm sure they were superior sails (didn't improve my sailing though). The only reason to buy Hobie sails is the to go to the Hobie nationals and I'm sure if you hunted around you could find some reasonable 2nd hand ones.

A new Capricorn / Viper F18 would introduce a new viable second hand class to the entry level market as everyone sold off their old boats. So in my book bring on the new Cap, it can only be good for the F18 class.

If I ever sail with Ashby he’ll be smart enough to stay well away as he’s lapping me . I’m using the sail prices as an indication of cost of parts for the different boats as that’s what I lost on the 5.8, it’s probably my location that makes the Capricorn a more viable boat Tiger $6947, Infusion $7450 and Capricorn $3883. Sorry my earlier post was grumpy must be the lack of sailing, end of hijack

Jeff,

I'd get quotes for masts and centre boards instead. As mentioned already with F18 you can get your sails everywhere

My friend bent his tiger mast.. the hobie dealer would only sell him a full mast rigged... just a touch over $4k.(which he did pay)

If that was a capricorn AHPC sell the section for a little over $1.1k

Hobie have some nutty ideas.... obviosly not my choice of "dealer support"

I would have taken the $4K from the insurance and bought the capricorn mast and a new main to suit.

No arguments here Scarecrow! but he had a brand new hobie mainsail and the cap mast would not have matched it.

Getting an F-18 Chris?

I'm pretty sure Chris already crews on a Tiger and he must be happy with the boat so I can't blame him for pushing it.
We havn't heard from Aus-Cat, if he works with AHPC he would know the first batch of new Capricorn's will be out in time for our summer.
regards

The day Chris Allen goes F-18 will be the day that the N-20 disintegrates at WRSC or he moves to another location where N20s do not roam.

Or maybe 12/21/2012.

There won't be a "batch." There will be one for testing, then mods, then a second for two-boat tuning. I wouldn't expect a production run in 2010.

In the mean time, we had a great F18 clinic this past weekend in SoCal; three Caps, two Infusions and two Tigers in some focused drills with a coach in a power boat. Incredibly, it seemed like it actually still matters who is driving the boat.

awwwwwwww, come on, we all know the newest boat is the fastest and it has nothing to do with the driver.

FYI,
Notice my smiley faces and stuff!!!!

C'mon JW it looks like the "driver" of your boat is getting a bit of a jump on the lineup.

LOL! Not me, Matt - that's Steve Hansen and Nat Shaver. They didn't get the sequence and jumped the gun. Unfortunately, Dennis and I are getting run over by both Tigers in this shot.

How Pete Melvin went with that 3,45 jib? on that "blue" Infusion

Pete and James Melvin are sailing on the small sailplan - they weigh 129 kg.

Who did the clinic? What drills were covered?

Sorry , re phrase: how they did with that small plan on those training regattas?

Drills: Starting with rolling 5 minute clocks, short course racing to work on boat handling (pics and vid), four-boat racks for straight-line speed and on-the-beach chalk talks and tuning.

Coaches: Jacques Bernier and Pete Melvin with additional commentary by Bill Westland and Jeff Newsome. More sailors than boats, so some traded out coach boat and sailing duty.

How does Pete do under the small sails? Pete is extremely fast in all conditions. At the last regatta, we had eight races in great breeze. Pete threw out his only second place finish and won the event with seven points. In all of history, two people have walked on water - only one of them was not Pete.

jajaja Ok thanks for the info. That´s for sure, and the other one is a catasailor too, I know cause he told me: "..Follow the cat sailing path.."

Hope to see Pete at next F18 Worlds riding his own design.

If your talking about me Jeff, wrong Chris. I used to have a Tiger but the point behind my post and a comment I've made regularly is that the F18 rule is so well constructed that any of the complient boats are more than competitive. If you're looking second hand, look for a boat that is already in the "outdated group" Tiger, Nacra F18, Capricorn (by the sounds of it) that way you won't loose out finacially and you'll end up in the same location on the result sheet as you would on a Wildcat/infusion/MkII Cap. Ask TA how much he lost between buying his boat new and selling it to Dazz.

Haha I can see where I went wrong now, I know theyre all much of a muchness with my sailing ability and I did consider the Tiger.
I'd attend a coaching clinic like that John, infact any coaching clinic but I've never heard of one in Aus
regards

Coaching clinics are something we (A.H.P.C) would definitely look at putting together. We have had a little interest over the last 12months so it maybe something we look at doing something this summer. A central location is always difficult though (being that Aus is so large)

Jeffs - Would you have enough interest in SA to warrant one over there or would you be willing to make the trip to Vic?

I figure after 2.5 years of ownership I can set fire to the boat and walk away from it and lose less money than TA did. New boats/cars/TV's are always bad investments. such is life.

AUS-CAT we would welcome a training clinic in Hobart!!! Could help out with some accomodation and alchol!

So your not a ghost thank's for the reply. AHPC is only a bit further distance for me than Adelaide, I would travel without hesitation either way and can be there Friday morning. I would love to promote cat sailing in SA, I'd probably get five 18ft boats together at Kingston SE on any weekend in summer depending on the cost. We have a distance buoy race, our Earthmovers race is 3 x 25-30km laps on Saturday the 17th of April 2010 so the perfect date for the last coaching session would be Sunday 18th of April 2010 with a lot of visiting cats. I'm sure some of the Stingray guys on their way back from the Nationals would be interested also. Would you consider a series of coaching lessons a month or so apart at different clubs?
regards

Boat halfed in value over the first 2.5 years of ownership. You definatly do not buy a new boat (or any) as an investment, but there is nothing like stepping onto a new boat. By the way, if you calculated the total of money I lost in resale and compare it to the $$$ spent in the 2.5 years I had that boat, then you would want to close your eyes. Not saying the Cap or F18s are expensive to campaign, but I certainly did not stick to a budget.

We have had several coaching sessions in Long Beach on the Formula 18s. This last weekend was the fourth, I think.

To get a Clinic together you just need 4 or more boats and a willing coach. In this case the coaches were also got to sail the boats.

We went out last night, Tuesday, with three boats. Practicing straight line speed mostly. I will be out tonight practicing tacks and gybes, as I do not believe there will be another boat out in the evening until Thursday. Friday we are packing up to head to a regatta in Santa Barbara.

Sabot Nationals going on at the Club this week but all those boats are on land and put away by about 4:00PM so there is no problem sailing.

There is some video of the sailing but not the coaching at: Long Beach sailing Long Beach sailing

Later,
Dan

Hard to beat the service that AHPC provides, Greg and Brett Goodall are coming here to Lacepede Bay Sailing Club and running a high performance training clinic for 2 days on the 28th and 29th of November 2009. Brett sees it as a pre nationals tune up clinic. I'll post full details later but feel free to PM me if you want to attend.
regards

Sounds like the 1st one on show will be at the Forster Wildcat Regatta October 3rd-5th in NSW. New super duper rudders too I hear.

Wrong - these will be just "super." The "duper" option is not yet available.