Portsmouth number revisited, need input

Took the boat out in too much air and threw my crew thru the mainsail. I was running a Tiger ST main and a new Tiger main is $1800 without battens. My boat is a TheMightyHobie18 with SX stick and magnum wings(don't use them racing). All the standing rig is SX and one hull is now from an SX. I have been racing the boat open with a 66.8 number, the boat cannot sail to that number with the Tiger main. I have decided to get a squaretop SX main from Whirlwind. So, no wings on when racing, oversized main, smaller self-tacking jib and F18 spin and pole. Basically an SX with non-standard main,jib and spin.

How would you rate it and what number should be applied?

Is there an difference in the regular Hobie 18 hulls and the SX hulls

So this is where I would start:

Hobie 18 SX = 71.3

Square Top Adjustment @ X .995
Spinnaker Adjustment @ X .960

Would "math out" to a 68.10 rating

just curious. and i know its rude, but since you stated how much a new tiger sail is, how much is a new TheMightyHobie18 sail from Chip?

http://store.catsailor.com/pc/viewC...ProdSort=1&page=2&idCategory=600

Andrew,
Chip is rushing the sail for me, in fact I ordered it Friday and it is already sewn. The invoice for the sail and custom tapered battens is $1625. This is a pentex main with custom blue batten pockets and trim to match my spin sail, Chip built that as well. Hobie is over $1800 without battens and no customization. Plus the Tiger sails don't like the TheMightyHobie18 mast, they need more pre-bend than the TheMightyHobie18 mast can apply.

This is my thinking as well. The TheMightyHobie18 and H18SX have the same hulls, tramp, rudders and crossbars. The difference is the mast height and main sail size. There is a hit for not running the wings as well that I would apply, wings slow the boat down.

Hit for the main, spin and wings above the SX number?

cool, thanks
when i was looking at a new jib, chip was FANTASTIC to work with. i ended up getting a slightly used one from Robbie, but i really thought Chip went above and beyond to work with me...

I see a hit for using the wings, nothing for taking them off. Am I missing something?

"Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995. Multiple deviations may incur multiple penalties. Penalties may be greater than 0.995. Please identify any such modifications and penalties assigned and include with results reported to the handicap committee and Portsmouth Numbers Committee

the standard class configuration for the 18SX is with wings.

Agreed, as I don't think DP-N has an adjustment for taking the wings off.

Undecided is correct. There is a penalty for not using the wings. I haven't looked for it yet but will today.

the penalty is a pain in the butt!... literally!

Ahh Duh!!! Got it it

"Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995........

So take the 68.10 X 0.995 for a rating of 67.76 at least this is what I am able to get off the Portsmouth Website.

Here is what I see from the portsmouth 2008 numbers. The SX w/spi is rated 71.3. No wings is a .995 hit, oversized non-standard main is .980 hit. There is no mention of a hit for a smaller than standard jib and no hit for the spi(mine is assymetric). The jib I can understand as there is no gain. The spin I run is quite an improvement over the SX spin so some penalty should apply but what?
I calculate it 71.3 x .980 x .995 = 69.52

Didn't know the boat came with a spinnaker, Not very familiar with all the different TheMightyHobie18 configurations. So used to adding the hit for the older boats. But looking at this; there is only a 0.01 difference in the base rating of the SX vs. the standard and the magnum at 71.4. And they would take a hit for the spinnaker. What are the difference in the regular/magnum H-18 and the SX, Mast, spinnaker, anything else.

Question, is the new main within 5% of Calculated Approximate Sail Area?

Let me get this straight...adding wings to an TheMightyHobie18==> no adjustment.

Subtracting wings from an TheMightyHobie18 SX (or whatever they are called)===> takes a hit

Weird, no?

regular TheMightyHobie18 and Magnum run a 28' stick, SX runs a 29.5'. The Magnum has the shorter wings on it and can be run without them with no penalty. The SX came with long wings and a spin kit was available from the factory, the boat is to be raced with the wings on. The SX spin is a bag launched full cut spin, mine is flat and snuffed on the pole. The SX rating doesn't seem correct but thats all there is to go with.

I'm not sure if the new sail is within 5% of the original or not. There is another boat on the left coast running the same main, "Wind Raider" is the boat. Its pic is on the Whirlwind site.

Yes there is it is .995


That too!!!



Looks like you got yourself a sleeper rating there and should clean up in open class.

Hang on a minute, see this post:


TheMightyHobie18 Wing Mod

where you and others claim there is no mod for an TheMightyHobie18 carrying wings!?!?!

Can anyone explain how you can have two of the same boats one with a larger mast and spin and still have the same number as the other boat with smaller mast and no spin. 18 vs 18 sx.

Mike,
My understanding is the TheMightyHobie18 and TheMightyHobie18 Magnum share the same rating. Most magnum owners race without the wings and I believe Hobie didn't wish to split the fleets. The TheMightyHobie18 SX has many improvements(ha) over the TheMightyHobie18 and as such was required to race with wings as a separate fleet. There were so few SX's sold that it rarely becomes an issue. Technically a TheMightyHobie18 magnum without wings should be penalized but how would you know if it was a magnum or not?

The ratings are based on reported racing. Since few SX's are or were raced the number is based on less experiences/races. The TheMightyHobie18 which has been raced extensively has the more accurate number. The more results you can compare will make the most fair rating. The SX was never proven to be substantially faster than the standard TheMightyHobie18.

Mike:

I guess the question here is did the boat come form the factory with or without the wings. I too see this as an advantage over a boat with out them, that is giving the ability to draw more power form the main before tuning it down. I can't speak fluently about Hobie 18 as there are so many different variation you need a Phildalphia lawyer and New York accountant to keep it straight. Maybe Wickland can educate us on what is the right configuration for the Hobie 18, Hobie 18 Magnum, Hobie 18SX, Star and Stripes, Alter Limited Edition, etc.......

In this specific case if WH showed up to any of our event we would probably start with the standard H-18 rating of 71.4 and then start making the adjustment with each modification, that is the adjustment for the taller mast, larger sail and spinnaker, and if he added wings that too. That said in my eyes WH should be rated at 66.83 That is 71.40 X .960 (spin) X .980 (oversized main X .995 (taller mast). And if he chose the wings that day then 66.50. Again, this is my personal opinion and not gospel.

So this leads us to another question, what is the proper rating for Tom.

How can a boat with less sail area and no spin be faster than the boat with more sail area and a spin. Makes no sense to me.

Well actually, a boat with less sail can be advantageous in higher winds...hence the reefing systems on many boats. Having less power in extreme conditions can get you to the line faster.

The total bouyancy remains the same for both boats. When the wind gets honkin', the more powerful rig drives the hulls under yielding very poor performance.

That's the way I heard it right after the SX came out. I have no clue as to the validity of the theory.

18 Wind Ratings

H18SX 71.3 75.5 73.0 70.1 66.3
TheMightyHobie18 71.4 76.8 73.5 69.5 66.8

You spelled my name wrong.

Sorry Wicklund, Wickland, Wicklend - hmm this has a ring to it.

Getting back on topic, what's the scoop here, you know these boats better than me.

Seems like an SX with no wings is a TheMightyHobie18 with a tall mast. Take a hit for the mast, hit for the sq top, possibly a hit for larger main (not sure)hit for the spin, and a plus for smaller jib. I Don't think you can use the slow number for the sx and work from there. Not enough data to support it. It's a Hobie 18 that is modified. Someone else can do the math. I'm an idea guy, not an engineer

Let me fire this across the bow...
What about the SX guys that changed out the rig to race against the H18s. I know of several SX boats being raced without wings and with standard rigs, what does that make them? Does this come down to production date of the vessel and equipment listed on sale invoice?

Not enough data to support it

Ugh... the modification factors themselves are not carefully measured values backed by lots of data either.

The purpose is to get everyone on the race course and not give the sailor with the non class legal boat a gift rating.

You would be better off using SCHRS or Texel calculator to get a one off boat rating.

A sx with no wings and a standard rig would be a TheMightyHobie18. There were several sx's with wings that were simply magnums. No tall mast or different sails. As far as I know, all hulls, foils, etc are the same. It was the tall mast with mylar sails and spin that made the boat different. The extra wt and comptip did not make the boat competitive. I think the sails were european designed and were never tailored to fit the comptip. It was actually a factory frankenboat to begin with that did not work well. To gain any credibility, you will have to start with the proven TheMightyHobie18 number and go from there, at least in my opinion, Rick (hope to see you out this fall, whatever the number)

Sounds like a good idea to me.

In the time it's taken to type all the replies on this thread; you could have got someone to measure ALL the TheMightyHobie18 variants and had suitible handicaps for all......

I have no idea how to do this. Is there a website that guides you thru the inputs to get a number? TheMightyHobie18 variants?

It appears that the 66.8 number I ran last year is the closest it will get. I'm ok with that, just need to pay attention and sail faster!

It still seems that my boat is closer to being an SX than anything else, but whatever, its not like there is money to be won.

Rick, I will be at Ya Gotta in 2 weeks and hope to make Hatteras and Catfest this fall. Sure I'll see you at one of those events.