Looking Forward to 2016 Games

I would be more worried that ISAF define the disicpline as High performance sailing then what multihull to pick


singlehanded (laser)
double handed (470)
windsurfer
keel boat (star. E..)
High Performance (not multihull)

The women's skiff (29ner) and the men's 49ner would make more sense then mens and women's tigers. Calling it High performance sailing will leave the catamaran out in the cold again...

Bob is correct... we will be killed again unless we can develop a viable women's multihull circuit.... ASAP!

It is in NO way a requirement for the class to be an "international class" if that were the case then the RSX, 49er and Elliot 6 would not have been considered....

maybe you are right though... we should aim for mediocre just like the rest of the boats in there...

So in a perfect world you would choose a Tiger as the Olympic boat??? come on man! think outside the box a little.

This is an opportunity to do a great thing for multihull sailing and you are suggesting we go backwards just because everyone else is doing it...

And the Tornado is how old again?

I was under the impression that the Olympic boats had to be "readily available world wide" or some such thing, at least that was some of the reasoning when they brought in the Laser. If that is still a requriement, no "New Technology" type cat will qualify, but the Hobie 16 has been around long enough to qualify.

My idea was to use a single manufacturer to supply all the boats for the games, brand new, same for all, Hobie might be the only company big enough to do that, and the Tiger could work, and then sell them at a discount afterwards.

How many Tornado teams were there in an average Olympics? You could even use the same Tigers for the Men and Women, alternate days, or one week for each. Small sails, big sails, etc. It would level the playing field much like the Alter Cup.

The hulls on the Tornado are an older design, but the rig is carbon and most of the other components are as good as you can buy so in many respects the Tornado is very much up to date. most of the development in the Tiger class can be directly attributed to the Tornado.... Self tacking jib, Spi snuffer systems...

If the this "pinnacle of the sport" was run for the sailors, I would be all for finding the best, most challening, most exciting gear to showcase our sport. The games are not for the sailors unfortunately, it is about media and running the event itself. The event have grown to be larger than the participants and their "friendly" competition. Forget about the olympic ideals, think event management and media.
That is why the Hobie Tiger makes perfect sense. It is spectactular enough for the media. It makes financial sense for all parties (except the sailors if SMOD prices takes off) and there you have it. As you might have guessed, I am not a big fan of what the olympic games have become.

I'm in favour of the Tiger as an Olympic multihull class - and not just because I sail one (I race F-18 class - not Tiger OD apart from the Tiger Worlds).

The performance differences between the F-18 boats are not huge, and the Tiger is already an established ISAF class. I think selling F-18 as the Olympic class would be problematic - more potential for 'secret weapon' type development like some of the recent Tornado history - which is not what ISAF want out of an Olympic Class.

The equipment is cheaper to buy (I know boats are a small part of campaign costs and a Tornado will likely last longer than a tiger) - which addresses one criticism levelled at the Tornado.

I can't see how making the Tiger the Olympic boat would hurt the F-18 class. A lot of folk at the top of the class are on other platforms - and seem to think there is some small edge in this (or why change?) - do we think a bunch of Olympic sailors are going to get Tigers (with Tiger class sails from Hobie) going quicker than Infusions/Wildcats/Capricorns and ruin the class some how?

Someone in this thread made a comment about less 'Cat Only' regattas as a way of increasing exposure to catamarans and getting youth excited about sailing cats. I think that is a great idea. We attended the Buzzard Bay regatta with over 100 420s and a ton of lasers and the F-18s got a lot of attention blasting out through the crowds on the way to the course. Growing youth participation is a separate discussion though from supporting John's proposal or making constructive comments / counter proposals.

Chris.

Take the RSX as an example.
There were no fleet at all before being selected as the Olympic windsurf board.
It was an equipment selection, an ISAF procedure, so is no not a final requirement.

The thing is, sadly, that the T is gone, after 30 years of good service. If monohull sailors opts for 90 year old boats like Stars, that´s their choice.

Is a good chance to have a catamaran that will last more than one Olympic cycle, think beyond 2016, for ie 2020, who is going to be sailing Tigers at top level by then??
I think Moths will be Olympic class by then..
Being the pinnacle, it does matter what pros are sailing.

Is not a matter of brands, Hobie has the Wildcat now, is a great opportunity for the Multihull community to plan ahead and offer a boat that will last some Olympics cycles.

With the Tiger argument, which I fully supported for 2012, there´s no better class than the Hobie 16...

I think this is a very important point in regard of youth sailors. The Tiger has its difficulties in F18 class races already and will have even more by 2016. Why should somebody buy a Tiger when one can race in one-class regattas only - do you have any Tornado-regattas in your area? I could participate almost every weekend in a F18-regatta in a distance of max 2-3 hours drive.
I see two options: either a then competetive F18 is chosen for the olympic games - or the Hobie 16. This is the typical youth-catamaran, there are 1000s in race condition around, the class will be still strong in 2016, aso.

I see the advantages of having such a large company like Hobie supporting olympic activities (and probably nobody else would has the resources to do that) - and their interest to still get some money out of their investment in the Tiger. However, I could imagine that they would be willing to support the Wildcat or H16 for Olympia 2016 as well.

Please remember that the decision makers for the games (ISAF and IOC) have a lot of other priorites than the age of the boat or what multihulls sailors think about the boat.

Rolf, that's the problem right there, it's not about what the Top Sailors want, it's about the politics, and we have seen how well that works out.

It worked out really well for the other disciplines though. I dont think this (current process and politics) will change so either we play the game or we throw our cards and let the different fractions within ISAF do whatever they feel like. I think we should play the game and focus on being in the games. We know what it is about now, networking and making it politically impossible to omit multihulls again.

I know I shouldn't add to the war about the Tiger vs .... However, what does any other catamaran have that a Tiger doesn't?

The Cap and Infusion have different hull shapes and mast profiles. But, it really doesn't change the way it is raced.

Only a C-class with a wing has anything that substantially makes the boat better than a Tiger. We know that they are not ready for general racing or the Olympics.

I agree with other posters that our focus should be promoting multihull sailing. I don't care too much about promoting it to the IOC or ISAF. I care more about promoting it locally. As a side effect, the IOC and ISAF will give us more respect and we can be in the Olympics.

1. We need to show up to regattas with other boats. Its the only way people will know we exist. Most people don't think of catamarans as racing boats. In America, most catamaran racing is done through Hobie fleets and no one outside gets to see it.

Every time I go to a regatta with monohulls, there are always people amazed at how fast and fun the boat is and want to give it a try. The younger they are the easier it is to make an impression on them.

This is were I think the "Hobie edict" failed us the most. Not only did separate Hobies from other cats, but it also separated most catamaran racing from the rest of the world.

2. Take people out on your boat that do not race catamarans. Both monohull sailors and people that have never raced. Since leaving college, I have averaged convincing one person per year to buy a catamaran by taking them out on my boat.

3. If you are a member of a yacht club, promote catamaran sailing at the club. Invite catamarans to compete at your regattas. In the US, if you are able to make it a Hobie points regatta, they will come. This helps people achieve #1.

4. Be helpful. If someone looking for a boat needs a place to store it in the winter, offer your yard. Help out new people by teaching them how to rig, sail, and tune the boat. Help people find crews or boats to borrow.

5. Don't exclude people or boats from your fun.

Are we talking about rotating boats in an Alter Cup type event or have the same boat for the same event?

Aha! So you admit the Tiger class is well developed and modern?

picking the Tiger WILL kill the F18.....

I would be hugely surprised if the F18 class would last long after the second Olympics. Remembering the Tornado was a B2.. How many other B2 have you seen recently?

Im sorry...
Tell me why a elite sailor would choose a Capricorn or Infusion over an "Olympic class" Tiger? They would all concentrate on the Tiger.. Why run two similar boats in a team?? The other builders would find their boats harder and harder to sell to the elites. Thus second hand boats would slowly dry up..

Whatever way you look at the situation the F18 will die. In my mind I would give the class 8 or so years after the first Tiger Olympics..

The Olympic Tornado killed the B2 class.. Even though the tall rig Quest B2 was faster..

Hogwash! I think the Tiger is an excellent choice! I've been hoping for this since it was kicked around initially. The Tiger is a PROVEN design, not outdated yet. Look at results. Look at the top finisher in the Tybee 500-Tiger as well as the GT300-Tiger again (corrected) but still there were plenty of Nacras in the mix. It's a solid, well thought out platform. It has the benefit of an evolving class and continues to prove itself over time. I think it's THE smartest choice to make as an Olympic multihull. Killing the F-18 class? Where did that fly ball come from?

I was talking with another catsailor who is a good friend of mine tonight. He's of the same mind as I am.

Going from the T to the Tiger is a step backwards. I'd rather see the 18ht out there. At least those boats are light weight, carbon mast and W/L optimized. Why would those crews want to go to a shorter, narrower, heavier and slower platform besides it being the Olympic boat? IMO, a new platform or a standardized VX20 type of boat is the ticket. Availability isn't great, but between now and 2016, I don't think there would be a problem. Once the boat is announced, you'd see teams start development immediately. By the time 2016 rolls around, you could have a faster and more entertaining platform to watch.

18HT rising from the grave of the dead boat society! what a coup that would be. Now if i could lose another 35lbs...

The 5-slot approach and Tiger for both men and women seem to me to be a very good way to go and I'm not known as a Hobie lover !

I would love to see a lighter more modern design be chosen (maybe even designed specially for it) but I can't say that that approach is realistic in these times.

So yeah, the proposed setup has my support too.

Wouter

From what I have seen, the Tiger is just as competitive on the race track as the Infusion, Capricorn and Wildcat. Some of the top sailors have now shifted off the Tiger for the Wildcat which has diminished the top end Tiger fleet but the boat is no slower then when it was winning against Caps / Infusions ect.

Choose the Tiger as the Olypic boat and the guns WILL be on the Tigers. The Tigers WILL dominate the F18 fleet.

Choosing the Tiger would be a very bad Idea for the F18 fleet. If you or Hobie believe the Tiger is an out of date F18, then ban the Tigers from racing in the F18 fleet if you wish to be an Olympic class. This way the class will not have any effect of the F18 class.

Why not start with a fresh sheet of paper. A boat that can be sailed by both men and women. A boat like the Viper would be perfect but could overlap with the F16 class which it is part off. Why doesn't a builder produce a simular boat in weight and sail area but make it a 17 footer? Make it significantly different to a N17 or FX1.

If Hobie, Nacra, AHPC or any large manufacurer develop such a boat and proposed it, whould this be a more attractive option?

Hobie Tiger does NOT have my support and never will.

Steve,

I dont think the Tiger will dominate the fleet, but perhaps the top guns will continue to dominate the F18 fleet? Bundy and Ashby, Mitch Booth and others will work on promoting the Wildcat at the big F18 events, just like other olympians and olympic hopefuls will promote NACRA or other designs.
I dont see the large difference for the F18 class if the Tiger is choosen. The same persons might still win, but does that mean the Tiger will be the boat of choice for everybody. Why does it have to go the same way as the B-class did when the Tornado was choosen? I think the F18 fleet and concept is strong enough to handle the Tiger as an olympic class, just like the B class was not back in the 60s.

BUT, if the F18 class dont want the Tiger as an olympic class and a legit F18, I have all respect for that. No multihull sailor wants any damage done to the F18 (or any other) fleet I think/hope.

Sadly Olypmic sailing has reached an unhealthy level of professionalism and bringing in the Tiger will not fix this. It may however bring this unhealthy influence into the F18 class which would not be in the members best interest. It would help fatten the pockets of Hobiecat though. Could also have a VERY negative effect on the Wildcat. If the Tiger was the Olympic class and I was to buy an F18, I would choose a Tiger without question unless it was significantly more expensive.

An F18 class selected as an Olympic class would effectively give that manufacture and unfair advantage in the F18 class. In Australia, if sailing was a business, this would be a breach of the Trade Practices Act and Hobiecat would be having a little chat with the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission)

Steve,

as long as the Tiger is locked down to SMOD, are you still of the same opinion? I know the F18 class backed the ITA at Estoril and later as the olympic multihull, but dont know where they stand today. Hopefully they are on top of this.

I believe we, the cat community, should all sit back, re-group and focus on promoting cat sailing as a whole. That includes junior programs, which is now going to be a truck load harder with no Olympic support.

Disputing now what should be sailed in 7 years is a little pointless. With everyone pulling separate directions we'll be left playing with ourselves in 2016.

For what it's worth I believe the cat association should run a selection, much the same as the 49er did. granted that too will be political, but everything is at the top.

history!! You know the thing that one should study to see what happened and why!!

The Tornado was ONE of the B class boats! When it was selected there were Mantas, Quests etc etc etc.. now go right ahead and tell me one B class fleet in existence!!

Im sorry, but the B class was strong very successful class.. I recall fleets at my own club being 30 plus boats.. Admittedly the sailing numbers have died over the years. But within 8 years this B class has split and the Ts sailed their own fleet.. The rest is history..

Now coming back to present.. Assuming the "gun" will hope to be in the Olympics.. So he/she MUST have a Tiger.. He/She will need to sail in the "olympic class events"! So how many F18 class platforms will the "Gun" need? So again why will "Bundy and Ashby, Mitch Booth" promote the Wildcat when they need to be training on the Tiger?

I think that platform selection is a bit early in this discussion. The real question is how to look ahead, promote and develop sailors for 2016. Youth training programs, existing sailors who might still want to compete seven years from now and so-on.

Actually a lot sooner then that!... more like 2012 after the games. ISAF will vote on the 2016 disciplines, have an equipment selection trial if needed and then the vote on the equipment.

Multihulls will need to at least match the world wide acceptance and participation of the 29ner for women's high performance sailing in order to have some chips at the table.

Windswept... do you think that the Olympic boat should be part of a strong widely accepted world wide class... (eg the laser or F18 or Hobie 16) or should it be an elite boat that Olympic hopefuls campaign on the Olympic circuit ... (like the tornado campaigns of the last 8 to 12 years or the 49ner )....very separate from the normal fleet racing in sailing.

Mark

there was no 49er fleet either

You all seem to think everybody will go out and buy a Tiger,lets stop and think of the long term scenario.

At the moment there are a lot of pro's and semi pro's racing a number of different types because they are being paid to as a winning boat means market share. If the Tiger becomes the defacto boat ( as it will if selected as the olympic boat) do you think Hobie Corp is going to employ all those now redundant pro sailors as a gesture of goodwill. I don't think so and that will leave a lot of sailors looking for olympic sponsorship of which only the top 3 or 4 from a few countries will get. That will then mean a lot of top guns are going to be unemployed and not able to afford the costs of the olympic boat.

Guess what, a number of pro's will retire from the sport and thus there will be a lot less F18's about which in turn will mean less boats sold by all manufacturers including Hobie. Eventually we will get to the Marstrom tornado situation where very few boats are sold to a very select few with diminshing second hand availability.

All we have done by selling our soul to get Olympic status is to kill off our vibrant F18 class ( which is probably our biggest fleet ) to allow a few hopeful medalists in a once in 4 years competition.

My gut feeling is that we should be saying sorry but we don't want to get involved in the Olympics but pushing our own World Cup series ( let it be known that this is the Olympic medal of catamaran racing ) where there are opportunities for all in a class being strengthened by numbers and availability of good used second hand boats ( hand me downs from the Pro teams ).

Check with Jaimie Livingston and Miami Yacht Club if you want the truth.

If we do not develop junior multihull sailing programs soon within the US Sailing and American yacht club infrastructure - who will represent us in the Games, 2016? Smyth, Notary, Glaser, Lovell, Ogletree - where are they now?

I claim we need to belay worry over equipment and work on recruitment.

Bert Rice, Secretary US Sailing MHC

In 2016 I'll be 68 y.o. I'm interested in good quality events now!

My schedule is full through 1/10. What's on the agenda after that?

Stingray.... but only just.

http://www.stingraycatamaran.com/

So are hobie also going to supply a boat to every tom, dick and harriette that wants to campaign for the Olympics in the preceding 4 years???

"Supplied equipment" is becoming a buzz word in sailing circles and nothing more. If you want to compete at the Olympics, you will need to buy and maintain atleast 1, if not 2, of whatever class you choose JUST TO GET SELECTED!!!

You are falling for the marketing hype if you think supplied equipment will keep campaign costs down.

What a farce!

That's not the point of supplied equipment. Supplied equipment is supposed to level the playing field. You don't have incidents like John Dane getting a special light air Star built or the "Chupacabra" upwind spinnaker controversy in the Tornado class.

""Supplied equipment" is becoming a buzz word in sailing circles and nothing more. If you want to compete at the Olympics, you will need to buy and maintain atleast 1, if not 2, of whatever class you choose JUST TO GET SELECTED!!!"

Nick, I'm not sure about your point here.

Matt's right, whether it's a supplied boat or a more open OD class, in and of itself, that does not affect how many boats you need to maintain in order to qualify.

To be able to compete at the Olympic level, you need to be good. For some classes, this means training all over the world (if there isn't sufficient competition at home), so you can either borrow boats all the time or buy and maintain them on various continents.

AS far as "getting selected" there are pros and cons to the various ways that this is done around the world. In the USA, you just need to show up at a qualifier and win the event. Obviously, this is not easy, but if you're a good sailor on the platform (and are Olympic material), you have a great shot. For some classes, the competition in the US is good enough that you probably can win this without racing internationally (although it seems this practice is going the way of the Dodo).

Mike

Strictly speaking - loads of them qualify. The B class is one of the most open formulas ever written. In the early days it was mainly sharks and shearwaters both still fleet racing.

Cheshirecatman

Something a one design Tornado would fix. Does not have to be supplied equiptment but would not be a big deal for any of the big manufacturers to supply. Just like chartering a new boat out for a worlds and selling afterwards. I am sure it would be a lot easier selling a Games boat, then a Worlds boat.

I have no problem with an SMOD boat being chosen, as long as it is not mixed up with any forumla racing on the side.

Clean sheet of paper I say.

So if I turned up to a Shark or shearwater race with a "classic" Tornado, Manta or Quest I could sail for the title?

The fact is the T killed the B racing fleets..

You are talking about Australia. I don't think there ever was much if any B Class racing in the United States. We mostly had one-design racing and Portsmouth racing.

Theoretically yes. Now how many fleets has the F18 caused the demise of?

Thoughts for an olympic cat. Isaf creates a strict one-design hull, built out of wood maybe. All hardware is F18. Isaf supply strict one-design sails and total boat/crew weight is equalised. Crew can race wherever as F18 and set up as an Olympic cat with one-design hulls and one-design sails for the limited number of pre-olymic regattas. Would make olympic sailing cheaper and more widely accessible maybe as well as keeping talented sailors in the F18 fleets.

Cheshirecatman

I think just to keep costs in check, the Supplied Boats is the way to go, at the Olympic event only. Now, how do you select who will represent? I think the boat type selection should be announced at the prior Olympic, giving any interested teams a full 4 years to go out and buy one, and practice on it.

BUT for the actual Olympic regatta itself, use brand new, supplied boats, to level the feild a bit and keep the Arms Race type spendig in check. This is the one thing that I think hurt the Tornado class the most, the out of control spending to "keep up". If it is known 4 years in advance that a "stock boat" will be used for the next games, all the spending in the world won't give you any edge for the games.

The Selections, while each country is free to choose it's own method, might be best handled much like how we do the Alter Cup here in the USA. Take all the top sailors from all the active classes, put them all on the same boats, new (use the same boat as will be used in the Olympics) and have a week long regatta to sort it out. The top teams go to the Olympics.

Now, obviously if it is announced that the Tiger (or what ever) is going to be the -next- Olympic boat, the smart teams will go out and buy one to practice for 4 years, but when it comes time for Selections and the actual Olympic regatta itself, they will be on Stock Boats, not their own "modified" boats.

Maybe they could bring their own sails, maybe not, of course either way they would all have to be measured, and the boats would have to be inspected and weighed, just to be sure everyone has equal equipment.

This would keep the Olypic Campaign type expenses in check, but of course each country would have to pony up some "entry fee" just to pay for the use of the Olympic boat. They pay entry fees already, right?

For the sailors, it would be a whole lot cheaper than spending $50,000 on a Tornado, and the expense of trying to campaign it all over the world just to get selected. When the event is over, the boats and sails can be autographed and sold to the rest of us who want a nearly new Olympic quality boat at a discount.

It' supposed to be about who are the best sailors, not who can spend the most money, right?

I don't know what it would cost a big cat company like Hobie to supply say, 40-50 new boats for such an event (are there that many countries that put up sailing teams?), but they would generate some additional sales up front as soon as the "next boat" was announced, and of course they would then sell the boats afterwards, and each country would be paying some amount of money for the use of the boats as well.

Tim,

There were 15 Tornado teams at the 2008 Olympics. Figure 5 extra boats as spares = perhaps 20 new boats.

Mark,

Sorry I just found this post or I would have responded earlier. When the Tornado selection was done in 1967 catamarans were relatively knew to the scene of serious racing. You had some pretty innovative designers on hand a got a few really great designs out of the trials. I do not think we are at that point and time again. there are some truly wonderfull boats out on the scene right now with strong class associations behind them. I think that you can choose from an existing class, but that class has to be willing to committ to the rigors of being an Olympic class. I am not sure if there is a class out there that would be willing too. The F-18 class I think would split down the middle as to whether it wanted one of its boats to become an Olympic platform. Many think that the tiger is that platform. I am not sold on it, but I do not think that I will have much say in this matter anyway. If not the Tornado, I would support a more modern 20 footer at least for the men's selection. The M20 or V20 would do nicely. these boats are technically challenging and would push the sailors to stay at an elite level. I do think that this is an important part of the equation. As far as getting our act together, that begins today. I believe that the events vote is five years out from the games.

Sailing (Yachting) classes selected for 2012 Olympics:

Men’s One Person Dinghy – Laser
Men’s One Person Dinghy Heavy – Finn
Men’s Two Person Dinghy – 470
Men’s Two Person Dinghy High Performance – 49er
Men’s Windsurfer – RS:X
Men’s Keelboat – Star
Women’s One Person Dinghy – Laser Radial
Women’s Two Person Dinghy – 470
Women’s Keelboat Match Racing – Elliott 6m
Women’s Windsurfer – RS:X

It seems that rather than debate which Catamaran might be the proper platform to follow the Tornado into Olympic history (assuming that a tamed T doesn't re-emerge as TopCat), it makes more sense to try and understand and address the politicical dynamics of being selected to start with.

The controlling bodies seem to want tightly controlled classes that are have broad accessibility and appeal. The Star survives solely because of 100+ years in the barrel. They did fall from favor for one cycle, but resurfaced because of traditional sentiment. They are on thin ice now, however, because of lack of solid control over scantlings, which in fact is probably the root of the Tornado losing favor.

I believe that any "new" multihull must be simple, durable and available world-wide, truly one-design...and actively raced within the sailing community and not just the beach cat community.

A unified approach without internal strife and self-serving prejudices will go a long way toward reclaiming lost ground. I believe that the TCA was late in recognizing their peril and evolved into something that eclipsed the Olympic profile. Perhaps they have lost their chance, but we need to learn from that and not get too fancy if we get the chance again.

There used to be only five or six classes and now there are ten and we are hoping for eleven or twelve. Not likely. The numbers really got out of hand with gender duplicity...not that this is a bad thing. Do we really need Finns and Lasers or 470s and 49ers? However, all of these share a relative simplicity compared to the modern T, F18, or god forbid a tricked out M20.

We don't need to worry so much about whether the best cat sailors will be interested in a selected platform. We need a new stategy to reviatalize interest within the whole sailing community as well as with non-sailing sportsmen in general, in whose minds we are all sailing Hobie Cats.

I think a bigger issue might be whether sailing is still a viable sport in the eyes of some IOC luminaries. We don't often have a spectator friendly venue, although the Chinese did provide what looked like as good an arena as you could ever expect, even though the media couldn't capitalize on it.

The cost of providing such lavish venues may lose favor with economics as they are, and that won't help the spectator appeal and accessibility.

Maybe we belong in the X-Games?

I agree Jack, and I've never understood how there are TWO 1 person boats, and TWO 2 up dinghys. Pick ONE for each and be done with it. They could have dropped both the Fin and the 470 and kept the Tornado or some other cat. Politics as usual.

And I'll bet if cats were in the X games Hobie and Nacra would sell more cats!

My memory is fading.
I recall a hundred boats of C class at a worlds in Darwin? Similar numbers in the B class events..
Im sure some were from the States..

Drop both the laser and the finn.. put in the bladerider.. drop the 470 keep the 49er.. Add a cat

A hundred C-class cats at a worlds in Darwin?? Are you certain? I thought that class had always been pretty small and never even ran a worlds.

C-Class was an ISAF class at one stage so fully entitled to hold a worlds event.

OK how about this for an idea.. instead of having a men's and women's multi event... just have a fleet of VX40's and the rules are you have to carry a min no of female crew members.

surely that would have to get some attention??

I would have thought that there have never been more than 10 c-class together at a time.
Any time that there have been a ton of b-class together, they were all Tornados.

When we say C & B class, i hope we are talking boats designed to the rule and not a fleet of Hobie 16s that happen to fit both rules!!!!!!!!!!

Sure, but did they ever run an official worlds and how large was the fleet? Huge digression but very interesting.

When those ISAF classes were set up, it was just a way of loosely categorizing all the catamarans so they had a way of racing together, boat for boat. But very soon, early 1960's in the U.S., the Portsmouth system was established for the cats, so the ABC classes became irrelevant, except as a way of generally dividing up groups of boats in a regatta.

I think the ABC classes were based more on sail area than on boat size. That is why the Hobie 16 limited its sail area to B-Class size, which was the same as the Tornado.

They weren't like formula classes where peope build to the specs. It was kind of the other way around, where the classes were designated based upon the boats existing at that time.

A Class did go on to be a highly successful and relevant class. the rules have been updated over time, like the min weight and anti-foil limitations

a-class = a-cat

But the A-Class almost completely died during the 1970's and 1980's. It resurfaced in the 1990's and built into the great class it is today.

I think that is just your perspective Mary.

here in Oz the a-class has had a good following right the way through.

http://www.a-cat.org.au/history.html

you can see we have had national titles since 1965.

Obviously, my perspective is always based upon what happened in the United States.

Perhaps the 15years of secret a-class practice has paid off at the worlds...

Also, back when the international classes were formed ISAF was IYRU (International Yacht Racing Union) and USSA was USYRU. The name change didn't come until the 90's

Hey, Gordon, don't confuse the young people. The upper echelon of sailing changed the name, but the game is the same.

Nothing "secret" about the A-class during the past 15 years. As I said, it died during the 1970's and 1980's. It has had a huge resurgence since the 1990s, at least in the United States, probably partly or mostly because the Tornado sailors started racing A-class to keep in practice, since there were so few Tornado events here.

I, for one, was VERY happy to see the A class revive. It has been my favorite boat since I first saw one back in the 1960's.

I wonder what would have happened if the A-class boat (I think it was the Unicorn) had been chosen as the Olympic boat instead of the Tornado, way back when they were picking an Olympic catamaran.

You can Thank Ben Hall for a large part of that resurgence.

let me see..
There was a full fleet of Cs in Melbourne Australia in the 60s & 70s.. Miss Nylex sailed against at least 6 on a weekly basis when she was launched.. This was at the tail end of the Cs down under..


I recall seeing Quest 1, 2, 3 Miss Nylex, wildcat and that 20 footer that had the bit added to make her a C not a B.. all being rigged..

Definitely there were worlds.. The mast of the "Siska" C stood for years at Neddies as the flag pole.. The picture of "Rolly" winning the worlds was on the walls.. So there was a fleet in Perth at some stage..
Im also certain Bruce Proctor won the worlds in Darwin.. Could have been on a "Quest" prior to wing masts.

wasn't it the "Australis"?

Well.. if we are talking B class boats designed for the rules.. Manta, Tornadoes and Quest B2s were all designed for the rules. Probably a few more designs but Im not familiar with...
Mantas looked like a T but had a anti-pitchpole rail at the bows (which could do the reverse once the rail went under!!) Quest B2 had a glass bottom and ply sides..
My club had 10ish Mantas, a couple of Quests B2 and 8? Ts .. Then the Ts took over..

There were a few Cs but the Ds were few and far between.. The Ds were mainly in the States if I recall correctly..

Absolutely fascinating, I had no idea they were commonplace at one time. Seems like the world is getting more and more dull. Thanks for sharing.

Or if the wingmasted tornado with its superior performance had been selected!

Cheshirecatman

If the X-games dropped surfing from its roster, Id guess your not going to see sailing picked up anytime soon.

Did they do that??

Jeeze...what else is left for displaced catamarans?

The Special Olympics?

Unless all catamaran racing looked like Wednesday at F18 worlds this year, I don't think we've got much of a chance of interesting the folks the X-Games

Could you see the world choosing a single handed F16 or F17 for men's lightweight single hander and a Finn for a heavy weight single hander


IMO, the world could live with out a laser in the Olympics....and the public could not distinguish between a laser and a finn on the water and would not see a difference.

That would leave the men's side with an F17 or F16 single handed multihull

the Finn as a Single handed heavy weight dinghy
Keelboat 2 or three person spinaker boat or stay with Star
Two person dinghy.... (49ner or 470)
Windsurfer

This would leave all 5 major branches of sailing covered... two single handed classes sorted by weight and one two person dinghy class.

They could choose a modern keel boat for three person teams with a chute and you have the same number of mens olympic sailor and reflect the majority of sailors who race spinnaker keel boats.

So... could you see the class supporting them picking a Nacra F17, or one of the F16 builds or even the Marstrom M18 as an olympic singlehander for lightweight/midweight men's sailors?

Besides fighting sports (boxing, Judo etc) we're the only sport I can think of that has "weight divisions" in that same class.

While I don't totally disagree with this I think we need to look at it. They don't have the 50m sprint in light weight and heavy divisions. I understand the differences but if we are going to be cutting out a major part of the sailing community (cats or windsurfers for example) at the cost of having a heavy dingy ASWEL as a "normal" dingy, ISAF need to re-think their priorities.

But from what I can see and heard I think they will be re-considering this... Lets just hope when it comes to vote it's not all about self serving and and back door politics.

. Lets just hope when it comes to vote it's not all about self serving and and back door politics.

Ugh... it's always about self serving... If you don't take care of your own interest... who will?

It's not too likely that the international sailing scene will change that much in 4 years and so the constituencies that support the current events will argue for the status quo. We need to rethink this problem and try to have some facts on the ground that favor selecting a multihull in the context of gender balance and 5 disciplines for the next time.

The Olympic sailors could form instantly around a single handed spinaker class. Even better, It would not blow up the succesful F18 or A classes and perhaps cause the single handed spin class to really explode.

Dear petitioner

You may have seen the bad news in the press that last week the IOC decided not to grant sailing an 11th medal for the 2012 Olympic Games. This means that there will be no catamaran in the 2012 Olympic Games.

The ISAF press release can be found at http://www.sailing.org/london2012/29214.php

Despite this result we would like to thank you for your support over the last couple of years.

Following this bad news UKCRA have sent the following open letter to Goran Peterson at ISAF:



Mr. Goran Petersson
International Sailing Federation
Ariadne House
Town Quay
Southampton
Hampshire
SO14 2AQ
United Kingdom

19th August 2009

Dear Mr. Petersson,

Thank you for lobbying the IOC for an 11th medal, so as to include multihulls in the 2012 Regatta at Weymouth. It is sad to read that your efforts have been turned down. The IOC said that the key positive factors for additional events included whether the changes would increase universality, gender equity and youth appeal, and in general add value to the Games, which an Open Multihull event would certainly do.

While there is a chance that this may change in 2016, that is seven years away - far longer than the horizons of both athletes and commerce. Therefore there is a clear need for some alternative pinnacle to our branch of the sport.

Your press release makes no mention of any contingency plan. If you have one, we ask you to publish it. If you do not have one, we ask you to take the lead by instructing your Multihull Commission to prepare plans for a World Multihull Championship in time for submissions to be made for your Annual Conference in November.

ISAF claims for itself the exclusive right to stage World Championships. With rights come responsibilities. We therefore ask you to exercise that responsibility, as you do for other branches of sailing, such as Match Racing and Team Racing.

Such an alternative platform for the sport’s best sailors to demonstrate their prowess and to show the world at large the wonderful spectacle that is multihull racing would have the full support of multihull sailors worldwide.

It should be an event with official ISAF backing that aims to approach the importance of the Olympics and therefore receive financial support from National Authorities. It should be separate from the championships of individual classes, organised at private initiative.

That would go some way to redress the perceived imbalance that is seen by thousands of passionate multihull sailors. Furthermore it would encourage young talent to remain faithful to multihull sailing so that, when multihulls return to the Olympic stage, the basis for an Olympics that truly represents the pinnacle of multihull sailing is already in place.

Yours truly


Nick Dewhirst
Chairman

Anybody have any idea what this kind of event would look like?

How about a USA type Alter cup championship with 20 teams on charter boats? Single handed spinnaker boat anyone?

If you guys are not happy with paying the ISAF heaps of your hard earnt money not to be even 1/10th recognized then why dont you ask for a refund or start a class action against them! What`s the penalty for fraud nowdays?

Nick (and the others which I dont know who is) is doing a great job!

Ben Hall among others in the States were driving the class forward. The minimum class weight also had a huge effect on stabilizing and growing the class. As to C-Class there have never been hundreds of boats. I think that the total built is below 50 boats.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. The cost of an Olympic campaign won't be reduced with supplied equipment because campaigners will still need to own atleast 1 (if not 2) top end boat just to gain selection.

Tornado Olympic Submission

This push for SMOD supplied equipment is looking more and more like Hobie is trying to make a buck.

But what do I care, it's just sailing.

Game on.

http://www.29er.org/index.php/Seiko-Superbowl-Regatta-Miami.html

maybe all the other manufacturers.....

Not a fan of the Tiger being the Olympic cat. Compared to a boat like the Tornado the speed differences of it being sailed in the 'groove' and out are not as drastic. It is also not as physically demanding boat to sail fast which to me takes away from what the Olympics should require.

Not a fan of the idea of it being a supplied boat. Does the stock Tiger still come with no Jib luff control to the tramp and no mast control adjustment to the wire?

Boats being supplied will that also mean that you take the responsibility of equipment failure away from the sailors like in the Alter Cup?

My suggestion:
F18 for men
F16 for women (or F18 with smaller sail set?)

One year before olympics, have trials from each manufacturer to select which boat will be the Olympic boat for ONLY the next olympic. The manufacturer has to supply the boats for the event.

(alternative, something like a OD Tornado for men, F18 for women).

This would provide a great junior -> olympic development plan for all countries (something like H16 -> F16 -> F18 -> OD20?), which is a HUGE part of the politics (you have to give the governing bodies a way of developing juniors.

By eliminating choosing one specific manufacturer 4 years before the event you allow the class to develop boats for three years, all manufacturers, helping the class. Then, by choosing one for the year up to the Olympics you give Olympic sailors the chance to buy that one and train for the year leading up to it.

Just my thoughts, but lets not forget, you NEED to have a junior through olympic training / development system in place. (Lasers, Laser Radials, Laser 4.7s, Bytes, Optimists for example, or 470, 420, or even 49er, 29er, 420...)

My 2 cents

Since the boat is a small part of the cost of an Olympic Campaign, as many have mentioned, why not open class, 90ft x 90ft, with wingsails and water ballast. Oh wait, wrong thread..

No manufacturer would support your idea.

12 months does not give enough time for manufacturers to gear up and produce the number of boats that would be expected for training etc leading up to the games.... And after the Olympics they would have boats that they would need to just about "give away"..... Great way to make the manufacturers that support the classes go bankrupt!!

And prospective competitors are not going to purchase one of each ... just in case!

The Jr Olympic Event at Rock Hall, MD, July this year includes Hobie 16's. We plan on flying back to take part, with Grandson Dan sailing with his cousin, if we can line up a H-16 for the Event.
Caleb Tarleton

More on the Junior Olympic Event at Rock Hall Yacht Club, MD that includes the Hobie 16. http://www.rockhallyachtclub.org/jo.htm

Caleb,

You need a boat????? ..... You've got a boat!!!!!!

Have you been talking to Gordo?????

Plan to fly in to BWI (best) or Philly .... we are planning a sailing seminar for Thurs/Fri also Run by just a few Champions like Wally, Jimmie Glanden, and Richie McV ... I'm working on including Tyler Meyers also ... w/more surprises to come ....

I'm asking favors ... twisting arms ... and wearing out kneepads!!!!

I'm working on the announcement/post currently .... for the very first US Sailing Junior Olympics H16 Youth Atlantic Coast Championship!!!!!

and we'll be using the "Big Pinks" ... the 7' tall Tetra's from the 96' Atlanta Olympics !!!!!!!


Harry Murphey

Thanks Harry. Looking forward to the Event. Skipper will be Dan Tarleton, 15 and his Cousin Colin Hackett also 15, will crew. Dan has sailed the H-16 for three years, raced, mostly as crew on H-16, H-18 and Tigers the last two years.
Caleb Tarleton