Applying the Rules.

Hi all,
I sail my catamaran singlehanded on the same course as dinghys with a crew of three, Sharpie.

I have had 4 separate incidents where I have clearly had ROW but had to take drastic evasive action to avoid a collision with a Sharpie, different boat each time.

When discussing the situation post race with the Sharpie crew their argument is,
1, Three of us and one of you so no way you will win a protest.
2, Catamarans only get in the way and stuff up our serious racing.


Talking with other cat sailors at the club they agree that what I have stated above also happens to them however they dont wish to take them on as it leads to even more problems, in their experince, on the race course. Independent witnesses have also used the same argument to avoid being involved.

This is at a large club with a growing dinghy fleet made up of older traditional type designs. Catamaran numbers have reduce by 60% (30 cats) in the last 5 years.

Does this situation occur at you club?
How was it dealt with?

Darryn

Darren,

yes, I have this problem at my club.

2 fleets have loads of boats out and have NO IDEA of the rules; I've had numerous "discussions" with people who's attitude stinks; they think they own the lake and do not understand that even if they are in a close race; they still have obligations to boats in other fleets.

I have seen the same happen; but where I sail we are down 95% form 10 years ago.

I would suggest you need to talk to the sailing-management of the club and also start to protest. If they play the "3 crew card" stste that that is not important; they are crew and so will not count for much (in a proper protest).

Start calling some of these poeple out. otherwise they get away with it and it then makes it "common" and others copy; they forget the rules and it becomes unsafe.

Good luck.

Hi Darryn,

Can you give us more details about the situation?
Are you sharing the start with the dinghies?
If so, how many cats are in the start with you, or are you the only cat?

If cats have their own start are you lapping the dinghies on the course or are these windward leeward encounters?

- - -

If you have your own start there are lots of solutions that you and the RC can work out to minimize encounters on the course. If you are the sole cat, or otherwise sharing the start with the dinghies, you're in a difficult position to which there is no good solution.

Cheers,
Christopher

Defiantly do this. It would also pay to get some of the other sailors who have had similar issues to back you up. It sounds like an ongoing problem and if it is a shared issue amongst the sailors this will help your cause.

It is really disappointing when crews stop abiding by the rules because they know you'll avoid them and won't protest. This happen all the way from club races to world championships. Sometimes the only approach is to protest and have them canned once or twice. It's unfortunate but they may need this to realize they are not above the rules.

Protest them. If they win by out numbering you get a waterproof video camera. Tell them it's on even if it's not, even better if it's running the whole time. If that doesn't work, put something menacing on your sprit or bows, like stainless steel caps and play hardball.
Tawd

Something about three person boats... We had a similar issue between lightnings and cats.

Are you racing against these sharpies or just sharing the race course? If you are racing the sharpies then your commodore needs to give a pep talk to the fleet that marginalizing the odd boats by not racing by the rules is not acceptable.

Yes protests are not evil tests that require pistols at 20 paces. Protests keep the game fair and safe. By all means press your case, (at the worst, you will learn how to make your case effectively)

You also might consider the context. Screwing around with slow mono's on the course can never be fast. Unless your cross is unavoidable ... say a mark rounding.. it's both smart and considerate to sail around them with your speed.

Consider a beach cat on port with spin trying to cross a parade of 30 + foot monohulls sailing down wind on port.

Yes, you would be legal in taking up the monohull after giving him room and opportunity... but why?... Luff the chute, take the transom and keep on flying...

Get you an water balloon sling shot and put some ice balloons in cooler. Bounce a few off there hulls and they will move next time. LOL LOL

Doug

I have talked to race management, largely made up of friends and relatives of the Sharpie sailors, they dont think its a problem because it is the way it has always been plus cat sailors just like to whinge.

Tried calling them out on the beach, escalated quickly and didn't end well.

We have both mixed and separate starts, its easy to avoid them if I stay away from the committee boat so no issue there. Mark roundings and port/starboard is the problem as having to tack from starboard onto port or sail inside the mark when mark room isn't given costs lots of time and it affects the results.

I agree it is fastest to minimalise interaction with other boats but with 60 boats on the same course its almost impossible to avoid them completely. When I'm in front or coming second or third I think its just plain wrong to loose 100 metres because 1 group of boats wont obey the rules, particularly when 60 seconds often covers the first three places in our fleet.

I am not going to reinforce my boat so I can collide with other boats. Camera idea is a good one, will give me something to use when I protest them.

I wont get backup from the other cat sailors, they are long term members and not interested in making waves.

For some reason it makes me feel better that sailors from other countries have the same problems, I appreciate the replies.
Darryn

Hi Darren
I would park my boat 2 boat widths' higher than him, and just in front and shadow him around the whole course, When he has a whinge which all monos do , Just tell him "thats that the safest place to have you", I think he will soon gets the Sh***ts, And i think the next time you meet he will probably more resonable
OR
The other option is
Tell him the boats insured to the hill and i need a new boat so i'm coming through
The last comment worked at or club where a guy used to try and bluff his way through

Its not just one boat, seems to be an attitude within their class.
After re-reading my posts I am going to change clubs, I will miss the cat racing on the weekends.
Darryn

Hi Darren
I wouldn't change clubs, stir them up if not they get away with being bully boys.
What makes them sailing around a pond any better than you??
It must be a monohull thing
Just my thoughts

Changing clubs allows them to continue.

They will not learn. Someone will get hurt, and then the crap really hits the fan.

Also, consider making it clear that this kind of atticude plays into the area of "fair sailing"; last think a club wants is a rule 2 protest on their books!!!!

I certainly understand the squeeze Darryn is in as well since nobody at the club dares to back him up.

The situation is about more than respect...although this is the one that pulls at our emotional strings...It's also one of safety. If you can't depend on them to sail by the right of way rules, collisions happen.

Darryn, Why would you want to be associated with these people?

I have had the same problem with two-different classes for the past two years. Separate starts, same race course area, with different windward mark for us, shared leeward mark. Protesting begins next summer, since there are not any shared race course race left on the schedule.

Darryn, if you are considering leaving the club, at least go for a parting shot:

Next time, shout and don't change course. Force your way in any shape or form. Slow down, try not to hit anyone, but DO NOT TACK. Bonus point for slowing down right in the middle of the fleet so that everyone is forced to avoid you.

Having a camera running would be really nice. But do not tell anyone before. Capture them on their worst behavior.

Then protest whoever did not make a hole for you in the first place. Also protest every single boat that shouted insults at you. Go to the protest committee.

Right at the beginning of each protest hearing, pass to the commitee a letter asking that the finding of the committee be communicated to you in writing (rule 65.2)

Next put on record that you consider all sharpie sailor or class member on the protest committee to be "interested parties". Any family member of a sailor on the course is also an "interested party". Ask them to recuse themselves due to a pattern of intimidation by Sharpie sailors. Insist that these comments are captured in writing if they do not recuse themselves (Rule 63.4: Interested party).

Demand that *only* the representative of the protested boat be present, not the full crew. The crew can only be admitted to give evidence and must then move out of the room (Rule 63.3: Right to be present).

If your protest is valid, they have to disqualify them. If they don't, lodge an appeal with your national authority.


Rules are rules. Use them.

And don't be afraid to shame the club publicly by posting your story on as many place as possible. Hey, write a nice report about the unfairness of it and you may even get a shot at the front page of SA: that's when the **** hits the fan

Err, we do this for fun, right? Not much fun in that (neither is there much fun their behaviour against other classes). Instead of creating a huge situation, begin protesting in the small without looking for a situation. Dont hurt to have a camera though..

Unfortunately, no, this is not just a monohull thing! Cat sailors are also quite susceptible to the "holier than thou" mindset.

I've had pro/coached teams use intimidation tactics against me during major Tornado events...including being screamed at to read the rules on port/starboard crossings (me on starboard); being told not to park under a boat on a starting line etc etc.

And it's not just these elite teams...had a less than pleasant experience at a recent local event sailing as the odd boat out in a fleet of F18s.

This begs the question: Did you finish before them?

Usually the most competitive the fleet is, the least pleasant the competitors are.

And that's one of the reason why our sport can't attract more people. I haven't raced from 1983 to 2003. 20 years. I was sailing (420, 505, TheMightyHobie18, H14, H16...) but not racing. The reason? I went racing with a friend on his 520 at a national, and we were bullied around the whole day. My limited experience club racing Optimists, 320 and 420 did not prepare me for this amount of abuse. I called it quits and never raced again.

Until I joined my current club, on a reservoir, a place where there is absolutely no point cruising around. But I am now older, I can take the abuse, and I will protest any bully on principle.

Ah... the back to your ghetto mindset!

Bad behavior in one design or open class racing results in no fun!.....

Throw these attitudes in the mix with the other factors (many a thread)... is it any wonder it's proving to be tough to revive the sport.
It never ceases to amaze me... Why do these asshats think you will purchase one of their class boats, to compete against these butt hats?!... I didn't.

When your options are either protest on fair sailing... or change clubs and quit, or change boats to play....
Blah!

Mike, are you referring to Santa Barbara?

Yes.
I thought it was terrific how lots of teams convinced the RC to put the T in the F18 races. It was not so terrific to discover out on the race course that I wasn't "really" racing and to hear "Get the F**K out of our way!" on a port/starboard cross (me on starboard again); "Keep off our wind...We're racing!"; "Don't get 'competitive' with us on the start!" ; etc. etc.

Mike:

Your a nice guy, but...

On a Tornado you are not on the same boat as the F18s. You and I have had numerous conversations about you sailing F18s...mostly me trying to convince you to be part of a big competitive fleet, on the same boat. You contend that you are more competitive with us when you are on your Tornado. I really would like you to be on the same boat for fair and direct competition, it would be way more fun that way. If you are looking to be competitive there is always someone nearby to find competition, if all things are equal. Sorry you are out of sorts about SB. In defense, that was one of the last regattas before we sail the North Americans in Long Beach so there was a bit of extra voltage on the course.

By the way I only found 2 F18 sailors that knew you were joining in the F18 racing. When I voiced my concerns one of those sailors assured me that you would not be in the way a minute after the start, since a T is so much faster...

Since you prefer sailing in a Portsmouth class, tell the race committee where you would like to race. I know there was a Hobie 20 sailing by themselves. All the other boats involved in that regatta made minimum numbers for class sailing. I think the guys on the 20 would have liked to sail against you at least to the weather mark.

Later,
Dan

Dan,

You are defending an indefensible position. First off if you wanted your own start you needed to make it clear to the RC what you wanted from the get go. I know it’s unpopular to exclude teams but if that’s what you wanted and the RC was willing then someone had to stand up and be the bad guy. Once the decision was made to include other boats in your start the fleet simply needed to deal with it like adults and treat them like any other competitor.

What’s totally unacceptable is the P/S and “get off my wind” situations if that did in fact happen! We share the course with everyone else and MUST OBEY the RRS regardless of the insignia on their mainsail! This is no different than the actions of the dingy sailors in the other thread. This type of thing does nothing but turn people away from our class. We are much better than this!

Do you think Mike is more or less inclined to get involved with the F18 fleet now?

Regards,

David Ingram
NAF18 Chairman

Okay then...

I know of one instance when we rounded the last top mark in a very close third and Mike was on our heels. Competition for first place was pretty fierce, and we were setting up for a very competitive fight for the finish. I looked back and saw Mike driving very high to attack us. My skipper had words to the effect of "C'mon, you're not racing us." Mike gybed, which was the tactically smart move even if he'd been in a Portsmouth fleet.

Mike, if that is the sort of thing you are referring to, then I can see your frustration. I was one of those who said, "sure, let him sail with us." There was no other place for the RC to put you, really. I assumed, however, that you weren't racing us. It seems like you were just out for a sail and some practice. I assumed you understood that it was an important warm up for F18 North Americans. That was why I was laughing on Saturday afternoon when you looked back at us during one A-pin rounding and said, "NO ROOM." I thought, based on the above assumptions and the fact we were three boatlengths behind you, that you were making a joke. Instead, it sounds like you were quite serious and wanting to race anyone near you as if you were in a Portsmouth fleet.

It was a misunderstanding on multiple levels. I'm sorry, both for offending you and for speaking up at the skipper's meeting.

Presumably this is the event.

Wine and Roses NOR

No classes mentioned in this NOR!

It's a big charity event....

Its hosted by the Yacht Club as the OA... not the F18 class... so... when the RC puts you into a class... you are racing them... What's confusing about this?

Oh... and it's for a charity...

It's Worth a repost authored by the ex Laser Class OD president speaking about a DINGHY portsmouth race.



PS... anyone think the Hobie 20 who had a weekend of sailing around in circles will be back next year either?

That's not an NOR - at least according to the RRS.

Key elements missing:
- The organizing authority is not specifically stated (although you could imply that SBYC is by being the "host")
- That the event will be run using the Racing Rules of Sailing (presumably it was)
- The classes to race, any handicap or rating system that will be used and the classes to which it will apply, conditions of entry and any restrictions on entries.
- The times of registration and warning signals for the practice race, if one is scheduled, and the first race, and succeeding races if known.





This "NOR" pretty much fails on all accounts.

Sounds like the whole weekend was full of fail.

I disagree, Matt. I had a great time. There were no protests. Lots of money was raised for a good cause. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Partial detour:

It's amazing how many things are done incorrectly in NORs and SIs with respect to RRS. This is not limited to cat events. Only people who are as anal as Matt and I are about these things (partially due to our training) would probably even notice; that is, until the wheels fall off the bus.

Carry on...

Mike

It's kind of difficult to comment on your situation, Darryn, since we don't yet know the details, but I can comment on the question in a broader sense based on my own experience.

I too sailed the Santa Barbara Wine and Roses Regatta in the F-18 fleet, and I race my own cat in a variety of local regattas including those put on by ABYC where I am sharing the course with F-18s, H16 and A cats among others.

My advice is to minimize encounters with the dinghies/other fleets as much as possible. Anytime there are enough cats to merit your own start you should request it. With your own start the RC should be able to put enough distance between you and the dinghy fleet to avoid encounters at mark roundings and upwind or down. Whenever possible I would avoid starting in any start that includes a class fleet.

Everyone loses when you mix it up with another class. You foul them (in terms of affecting their intra-class race) and even if you win... what are you winning? When you examine the purpose for them being on the course versus you, they are sailing a completely different race than you are - even if not thus represented on paper.

Sure you could press the rules, but this will only serve to aggravate the situation. It won't teach people the rules. Instead it will only encourage them to conclude something negative about you or about cat sailors in general.

The key thing to keep in mind is that your purpose for racing is quite different from the purpose that those sailing in a class have in mind when they sign up to race a regatta. They are out to compete between their group. You are not going to win friends by crashing that party. Better to find a group of people like you who want to race handicap. Then you, as part of that group (handicap fleet), are all on the race course for the same reason too.

Even if you do end up in a mixed (handicap) fleet, it's still not always easy. As an example, the last time I sailed my boat in an ABYC regatta, I overtook the three fleets/starts in front of me before I got to the weather mark. Each of those fleets that I overtook was a class start. Therefore I tried to be respectful of the competition within those fleets by not pressing my rights (e.g. P/S) except when not doing so would result in gassing the fleet for longer periods of time than by crossing.

I think a respectful and courteous attitude on the course in these situations will earn you more respect and a better time than pressing your rights at the cost of affecting the outcome of other fleets.

Mike's situation at Santa Barbara is a perfect example of this. While the F-18 fleet was happy to see another boat out on the water, the fact that Mike was mixing it up among the F-18 fleet up and down and forcing boats to make maneuvers that tactically they would otherwise not make, means that he was affecting the results of the F-18 fleet: a fleet that he was not even scored with. He was certainly not endearing himself by so doing. And frankly, I can't think of one person from the F-18 fleet who said, "I'm glad the Tornado is sailing with the F-18s." The outcome of this is that Mike walked away feeling unwelcome and the F-18 fleet felt imposed upon. Who wins in this situation?? No one. The RC should never have considered this, and Mike shouldn't have asked to sail with the F-18s.

The trouble here arose because neither the F-18 fleet organizers nor Mike considered that in reality the F-18s and Mike were there for different purposes. Only superficially did it make sense to mix the T in with the F-18s, and no one won out by doing this.

A good RC making good decisions is the best way to avoid these situations. If you still end up encountering other fleets on the course - just be considerate of why you are each there (i.e. if you're racing handicap on the same course as class fleets).

Respectfully,
Christopher

Once the Race Committee set the classes defining who was racing whom, the game was set. The F18's in question had a simple decision to follow the rules or not . It didn't matter if Mike was on a "T" or just a "Newbie" on a F18 ... he/they deserve to be treated w/ respect and the RRS's followed. You are trying to justify poor sportsmanship by some F18 racers just because Mike was not on a F18 but was officially in their class. Incidences like this do not reflect well on either the individual F18 sailors involved or of the F18 class

Harry Murphey

When I race at the club Mosquitos have there own start, we usually get 10 or so Mosquitos and often we are the largest class. The racing amongst the Mozzys is very close, we stick to the rules and basically we all get along with each other.

I am very respectful of other classes, particularly the juniors classes that we often share a race course with, I absolutely dont want to put any kids off sailing, I have three kids of my own and see how they react when the nutters are screaming at us on the course. I am very flexible with the rules if I have ROW and young or inexperienced sailors makes a mistake that affects my race. However there are some situations when sailing against adults who have won National championships that cant be explained away by inexperience or lack of attention.
For example approaching windward mark on starboard tack with 200 metres to go and a Sharpie comes in on port, refusing to give ROW, forcing me to tack to avoid a collision or having an inside overlap at a mark, their bow level with my centrebord case, 4 boat lengths from the mark with me ending up sailing inside the mark as their bow hits the outboard side of my rear beam when they turn into the mark.

Rearranging the order of the starts doestn't fix the problem with races lasting 90 minutes, a mix of triangle and windward returns and 60 boats on the course boats will always meet at the marks and layline approaches to the marks.

I hope I have explained the situation better, I'm not talking about minor infractions, I'm talking about other classes blatantly ignoring the ROW rules because I am sailing a catamaran.

I also own a Flying Fifteen so I have no real bias.

Our sport is self regulating, its the individuals personal level of integrity that makes us do a circle when we hit a mark even if no one sees it, with all the focus on winning and perhaps a slide of some individuals level of integrity the end result is some sailors just dont follow the rules.
Protesting one boat in a fleet where obeying the rules seems to be optional might make that one boat more careful but I have found over the last two years of sailing at that club the more waves I make the more my boat gets damaged in the rigging area and more anonymous threatening notes get stuck to my car windshield at the club.

Moving on from the club is the right move for me, my closest club has a friendly Flying fifteen fleet and theres cat club that races Sundays 1 hours drive away, will try and get down there sometimes to keep my skills honed for the Nationals.

Thanks for all the replies and advice, lack of sportsmanship in some classes is a taboo subject around here, so it good to discuss it and find out I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Darryn

Nice post!



The NOR sets the expectations for the regatta ... When they are not even stated.. much less met... upsets occur. It's a little late to resolve this at the skippers meeting after you have traveled and set your boat up.... at this point you are going to be upset before you get wet.

It's a good bet that the OA wanted as many boats to attend as possible since it was an annual fund raiser for a charity. The OA is interested in generating a good regatta for ALL of the participants... not just the biggest class... so the OA's goal is that ALL racers will return next year and hopefully bring more boats.

From the OA's point of view... marginalizing boats that don't make class at the skippers meeting probably means they won't be back next year.

Sounds like you need some ground rules beyond a proper NOR. EG if you want a OD fleet... best have 10?? boats registered one week in advanced and have it published... otherwise the OA will group like boats and score you on handicap (no matter how many class members show). This process would let the odd Portsmouth boat make up their mind if it's a race they want to compete in before the registration deadline. Likewise, the OD class can only grumble about their fleet members who did not register in time or also choose to not show if it's not a OD race of their standards.

Set and meet expecations = no upsets!

I am??? I assure you I am not.

However, to explain the situation more clearly: Mike was NOT racing in the F-18 class. Mike was NOT scored with the F-18s. Mike was scored individually, and because he asked to start with the F-18s instead of with the (2 boat) Portsmouth fleet he was scored against no one.

From my own perspective, it is possible that I might have been one of the individuals overheard by Mike to have said "Get the [censored] out of the way..." in a given P/S crossing. I hope not, but if so, I sincerely apologize, because I certainly didn't intend to have spoken loud enough to be overheard.

The point of my last post was only to highlight that it is desirable to arrange ways minimize overlap with disparate fleets with the RC ahead of time. Among the practical suggestions and examples of my post, this point may have been muddied.

Christopher

This is exactly right. In the case of the Santa Barbara regatta a last minute decision was made by the RC to move Mike from the mixed class TheMightyHobie18/Portsmouth start to the F-18 start so that he could race longer courses since only the F-18 fleet would be sailing to the more distant weather mark. [His preference may or may not have been solicited... I don't remember who brought the question up.] It was a bad decision by the RC.

Darryn,

That does make more sense. I think the approach with the best potential results is to discuss starts and courses with the OA/RC of your club. If you have a close racing within a 10 boat Mosquito fleet it would be a shame to give that up. It also seem like you might have some leverage with the club if your fleet is the largest regular class.

Possible changes you might request to minimize encounters with other classes include:
- Adjust the length/duration/number of laps per race
- Use a different marks/courses
- Adjust the order of the starts based on speed of fleets

[Any other ideas?]

It could be that the OA/RC is simply not aware of the issues or aware that they could fix them to some degree by tweeking things. I would guess that they would be very willing to work with you to minimize overlap between the fleets as it would keep more people happy and coming back - - - which leads to more celebration at the club afterward.

No, I still disagree.. it probably wasn't a bad call... would you have wanted to wait the extra 5 minutes so that the RC would start the lone Tornado on the long course? ... He paid his money as well... putting him on the short course would be no fun for him or the little boats either! His game was to sail the fastest he could around the track ... take his time and the first F18's and do his own math. You can't begrudge him that...
Everyone should have known that the Tornado is approx 59 and F18 approx 63... so about 3 minutes per hour difference. I would expect the Tornado to be in the mix around the course (The statment... No problem.. he will be long gone... means that they are very bad... or mike is very good or they are clueless). It probably took 5 to 7 minutes to finish the F18 OD fleet. Unless you paid extra for your separate start, I think the RC call was reasonable. We routinely have Hobie 17's (74 and and Hobie 18's (72) share the start line (10 to 15 boats) and race the same course and they are much closer in time.

Organizationally, The one issue is the OA who did not make the deal clear before anyone got in their car.... I would certainly not ding the PRO looking at the scratch sheet and going huh...what's the best way to maximize the fun factor for all of the racers.... not to mention safety concerns... putting the spin boat on the short course with the non spin boats would be err... less safe.

The second issue is bad sportsmanship... Pissing and moaning that he is on your course or in your way is just that bad sportsmanship (not saying that you were personally involved). JW related that Mike made the strategic move and jibed away in one instance... So the evidence suggests he was trying to go around the track as fast as he could.

The issue is one of expectations and sportsmanship... certainly not the judgment of the PRO.

Actually... it was a bad call.
Let me see if I convince you why...

Pt 1: Would you have wanted to wait so the RC could start the Tornado on the long course?

A: Not applicable here. The Tornado was originally scheduled to sail with the H18s and the H20 - short course. The T would have been finished and ready to go before the H18s and H20.
In any case, after the first start, subsequent starts were not constrained to waiting for all starts to finish before starting again. The only way the F-18s would have had to wait for the T to finish is if the T was sailing the same start...


Pt 2: His game was to sail fast and take his time against the first F18's and do his own math.

A: His game was to race Portsmouth, recruit another 4 T's for a class start, or recruit a class of like spinnaker boats to sail against. I don't know about you - but in my area of the country one typically gets on the phone and makes a few calls to encourage people to come out and race. The F-18 class did just this. Mike could have done likewise.
Secondly, no one was recording time for the F-18s, so the T would have to record his time and that of the F-18s in order to determine where he was finishing relative to the fleet.


Pt 3: Unless you paid extra for your separate start, I think the RC call was reasonable.

A: The F-18s paid for the regatta and showed up under the impression that they had paid for a class start. They also organized participation and travel to Santa Barbara as a class in order to race as a class. So they did more than just pay their entry fee. And they were promised more that just "a start". They were promised a class start.


Pt 4: Putting the spin boat on the short course with the non spin boats would be less safe.

A: What?


Pt 5: The issue is bad sportsmanship...

A: That's a ripe comment to make. If anything, the intention of the race organizer (who is a member of the F-18 fleet and was also a race participant) was to make the regatta enjoyable for Mike. However the results of this decision demonstrate that it didn't turn out this way. The truth is that it was eminently foreseeable that this wouldn't work out - ergo - NOT a good decision. Well intentioned - but not well practiced.


My recommendation to all race committees in a similar position is to stick to the advertised plan and not to repeat something similar to what happened here.

In truth I believe it was a bit of a set up for Mike. As far as I could tell he was OK sailing with the H18s and the H20. The RC probably should not have asked him what class he would like to sail with. Obviously it was no surprise that he might prefer to sail with more like boats - i.e. the F-18s. By the same token Mike might have anticipated that it wasn't a good idea to request this - which comes back to the earlier topic (several posts back).

And just as a final point - while there was some frustration among the F-18 fleet with the T being in the same start, and while Mike may have periodically felt somewhat unwelcomed sharing the start with the F-18 fleet - as far as I could tell everyone in attendance was glad to see each other on the water and off despite whatever technical issues arose on the water from an ill conceived management error.

Cheers,
Christopher

I'm sorry to say that you all F18 sailors who called Mike names or refused his ROW are wrong. You are struggling for excuses, you are trying to put the omen on the RC, but you are all flat wrong.

A boat is racing the same course as you, you are all bound by the same rules. It doesn't matter how the score is calculated. It doesn't even matter if he started at the same time as you. You *have* to extend to this odd duck the same sportsmanship you extend to your fellow F18. No excuses.

If you are not doing it, well, you're an butt. And you deserve being protested and disqualified. Hell, if you were real sailor you would disqualify yourself for poor sportmanship.

Mike is 100% right in being pissed off.

Camera on the top of the mast. Camera in the car. Press criminal charges once you have proof. This is unacceptable behavior.

Heck, I understand why you want to change club.

A boat racing on a different course, overlapping your racing area, and you are still bound by the racing rules.



I dont believe it, are you serious? I would be out of the club in an instant with a letter to the commodore (if there was alternative clubs). The bullys would win, but if members are like that I would not want to be part of it. Or I might try to be elected for the board..

[
I dont believe it, are you serious? I would be out of the club in an instant with a letter to the commodore (if there was alternative clubs). The bullys would win, but if members are like that I would not want to be part of it. Or I might try to be elected for the board.. [/quote]

They just kept pushing their trailers or beach dollys into my boat, when I caught them doing it they were apologetic and claimed it was an accident but plenty of times I came back to my boat after changing into my wetsuit to find another trailer grinding away at my boat, so I started moving around the rigging area each week but the damage still followed my boat while other boats remained untouched.
One of the windshield notes told me if I wanted to stop the scratches and dings I should move my boat 30km south ( location of another club).
The commodore sails a Sharpie, never had a problem with him, I didn't mention the notes to anyone as I was hoping to hear of them from another source and backtrack them.

Its over now,

Darryn

Darryn,

I am very sorry to hear your story. I hope the new club is better. Shame on those sailors at the old club (I have some other words I would like to use, but not here and now)!

Darryn, you haven't lost a thing. Good sailing to you.

Darryn,I am appalled by your last post. That is not only poor sportsmanship, but that is criminal. I STRONGLY feel a letter to the commodore describing what happened (to your boat) and the notes. If nothing else, perhaps this would prevent it from happening to another sailor.

I am sorry you sail with such jerks..

The commodore knows. . .and approves.

Who's the club? Folks should know so they won't be put through the same grief.
I think I'd do a little careless dolly handling (directed at the proper targets) before I left. Yeah, I know 2 wrongs don't make a right,but it lowers blood pressure and prevents worse things from happening.

Sounds like a job for a $500.00 Hobie(no offence meant to Hobie), can you say dam the torpedoes "RAMMING SPEED", I'm willing to contibute $50.00 bucks to the Dull the Sharpie Campaign. Any one else?

Get a TheMightyHobie18 for maximum effect.

This is turning ugly...

Not if you yell "PORT" in a fiendly mannor, while giving the thumbs up as you sail over their bows. Thanks to kick up rudders it will only take a second or two drop them back down and look for another target in a "target rich environment"

Where did you come up with this information? No one in the F-18 fleet called Mike names, nor did anyone in the F-18 fleet refuse Mike ROW.

If exasperation was expressed that Mike was sailing as a unscored boat along with the F-18 fleet, it was simply that. Allow me emphasize again that by asking to sail with the F-18 start, Mike gave up the opportunity to actually sail in a fleet where finish times were recorded and where he might have been able to at least have a handicap result. As it was, he instead chose to sail among the F-18s whose times were not recorded, and thus his time on course was not recorded.
He further put himself in the situation to affect the race outcome of the F-18 fleet - which did in fact happen. What was the point?! Really? It is not a question of bad sportsmanship - only a very realistic expression of a bad decision on the part of the race committee and also on the part of Mike by not seeing the non-sense in moving Mike to this start. I think this, and only this, is what the F-18 fleet was expressing.

Some simple questions..

1, Was Mike RACING - I belive the answer to be YES
2, Were the F18's RACING, I believe the answer to be yes

Thus BOTH Mike on the T and the F18s are bound by the RRS. POrt gives way to stbd; w to L etc...

Sounds like someone/people are tring to cover them selves are being idoits on the course; IF boats are racing; they obey the ruules or get DSQ. Simple.

As for Darren, Get outa there pronto with a letter to the Commadore. Where is this club, what is it called I'll not be joining.

I tired yelling "PORT" at Parker last week... (as i cut in front of him). His responce was "I am on the phone" (and he was) hahaha...

I see both sides of the story here...Port Starboard, room at the mark, etc. ABSOLUTELY they are due and nobody should or could argue otherwise. This is part of the deal with racing on a mixed course.

However, things change when the bigger boat, who is not formally being scored against, engages tactically with boats racing in a tight one-design race to the disadvantage of the smaller boat who doesn't even know he's in a battle. For starters, the larger boat has a performance advantage making a duel a loosing battle for the smaller boat and one they can not only win, but one they cannot escape. Even in a Portsmouth fleet, you don't typically get into these duels because it only serves to slow the big boat down and reduce the chance of getting the separation needed for the win. I can see how an F18 crew could be frustrated if there were these tactical battles happening with a Tornado while they were duking it out in their fleet.

Wow.... I mean really.... Wow.

Please allow me to repeat what I just wrote:
"No one in the F-18 fleet called Mike names, nor did anyone in the F-18 fleet refuse Mike ROW."

Now, can I ask why Pepin and Scooby Simon want to claim the situation was otherwise? Nobody that was there has made the claims that P and SS have made here.

Respectfully,
Christopher

I can assure you that more name calling and unsportsmanlike behavior is going on here than occurred at the regatta.

Chris, I think Mike has said he was fouled. I didn't see him get fouled, but clearly the guy has come away with a bad taste in his mouth and has lain that at the feet of our fleet, not the RC. I think we'll need to look at how to better handle this in the future and let this episode be a lesson-learned - there is no "win" in this case, IMO. I had no clue, having been there, that this issue would become a topic - the weather, racing, club and companionship at the event in every direction I looked seemed a success. It took over a week for someone to speak up about a dissatisfying element. Best part is, it is something that can be addressed.

Darryn - sorry for the tangential hijack. I agree with others who have recommended you move on from that club and quickly. I would document your reason for leaving, complete with the love notes, and write your regional sailing association and the Board of the club. Here in the US, that sort of letter does get read and taken seriously. Don't treat it as a parting shot, but think of it as building the case for the next guy who might be treated in an even more harsh manner or in the case real damage or injury is done. Good luck at your next venue, and here's hoping you find a fresh barrel of apples.

I don't think he said that here, and I didn't hear him say that at the event. In any case, who wasn't fouled. ;-)

Good topic. Nice advice to Darryn regarding the letter. However, I would not be so quick to suggest he leave the club before exploring option with the RC for better organization of the racing. A 10 boat one design fleet to race regularly with is pretty good incentive to look for other solutions first. I'm not saying that the Sharpie fleet is right in ignoring the rules, just that the RC - with a few suggestions - could be more proactive in insuring less fleet/fleet convergence on the course - specifically at mark roundings. After all that's part of doing a good job as an RC, and this approach potentially offers the most expedient solution.

I wasn't at this event, and only know a few of the people involved, but the RC-bashing really needs to stop.

While there are some things an RC can do, the reality is that once everyone is on the water, classes will get mixed on the course and need to sail per the RRS.

Yes, it is nice to be courteous to someone in a different fleet (and this often helps your own game), but to beat the dead horse about this being the RC's fault is really getting old.

Congrats to the organizers for running a great event and making lots of money for charity.

Mike

John



Usually, these words are never spoken.... the tough issues are never addressed and the upset festers and is rarely resolved.

Usually the individuals just move on, sell their boat and leave the catamaran scene.

Haven't you noticed?

ps... anyone talk to the Hobie 20 guy... maybe his expectations were met... maybe not. but chances are... he is not back next year.

Depending on what the regions sailors want.. that is either a good thing or a bad thing.

The only thing the RC is being "bashed" for is for moving a Portsmouth boat out of the Portsmouth fleet and into the F-18 start.

Whose decision was that? Only the RC can make/made that decision, and it was a bad decision. It's a fair criticism.





No one is arguing that the RRS's don't need to be followed - and interestingly, only Pepin and Scooby-Simon, a couple of fellow cat sailors who were not at this regatta, are claiming that there was intentional violation of the RRS against Mike.

While the RC cannot keep boats from different classes from encountering each other on the water - they can act to minimize these encounters by working with course selection, starts and division breaks. In the case of the Santa Barbara regatta the RC could have avoided many of these issues simply by not taking the T out of it's fleet and putting in the same start as the F-18s.

I don't see this thread or my posts as RC bashing. I see it merely as a discussion of a situation best taken under consideration next time a similar decision is being made. In the Santa Barbara case, the decision to move the T to the F-18 start was made by the RC at the skippers meeting before racing started.

Mark raises an interesting question about the H20. I was concerned when the T was taken out of the Portsmouth fleet leaving the 20 with no one to sail against. However, I didn't have the opportunity to ask him directly if this affected his perception of the regatta.

I did talk with them and they are a really nice couple of guys that came down from the Bay area to sail. They knew that we did not have many 20s in the area and fully expected to sail in the Portsmouth fleet.

They knew that I sailed 20s for many years and asked me questions about tuning and rigging to help their cause, as they go back North to sail against other 20s. I was happy to help and we talked for close to an hour. They would have benefited if the Tornado was sailing with them so they could gauge their speed difference from day to day as they made some slight changes to the boat. I asked if they could tell any difference on Sunday and they thought they could but could not confirm it.

My feeling is they were more pleased about coming than not. I would expect (only my view, not from them) that to get them to participate next year would involve calling friends to make sure they had a class or at least some interesting Portsmouth boats.

It was a good regatta and really nice to have 12 Formula 18s on the line. I did not witness or hear about anyone not giving ROW on our fleet. I suspect that some may have asked Mike not to hurt their position if he could avoid it. I know and witnessed that Mike was very considerate on Sunday.

Dan

Chris,

My reply wasn't specifically directed at you, that's just how it shows up when you do a quick reply.

Your opinion is noted, you didn't like the setup. There may have been mitigating factors that "helped" the RC decide what to do.

My advice, let it go or step up and run it your way next year...

Mike

Just to clarify...I never "asked" to be in the F18 fleet...I asked the RC what fleet I would be in....and was prepared to go with the H20 and the 3 or 4 TheMightyHobie18's...then there was a suggestion thrown out from the crowd to have the T race in the F18 fleet and seconded by several voices at the meeting (I presume F18 skips). As I've said, I was appreciative of that as it meant we'd be with the most similar performance boats.

At no point in the meeting was I asked/told to not actually race other boats. And it wasn't exactly clear what the scoring was going to be...I pointed out to the RC if they were thinking of handicapping the races, they'd need to time all the boats in the race and that would be a lot of effort..."just do what's easiest" I said. Then I heard someone suggesting to take my time & a boat or two ahead and behind me to work out the handicap. That's about where the meeting broke up and it was never spelled out precisely how it was going to work. After seeing the score sheet the next day it was clear I was separately scored.

This didn't change our approach...we were in the race, so we raced.

Well, there you have it. A simple misunderstanding. We really should talk more at events.

Funny you say that Jake

Just to remind everyone of the last time this kind of issue came up was this year's Spring Fever regatta.

The NOR was equally uninformative....So, I started the How do you split the fleets discussion... How do you score it.
BEFORE THE REGATTA and BEFORE YOU STARTED DRIVING

Lots of spears were tossed in my direction ... the deal was.. Racing was left up to the PRO/RC... cause we trust him to support the OD fleet racing. ...

The final outcome.
The RC started the F18's racing their Southern Championship with the 10 boat Nacra 20 fleet around the same course.

The only real difference between the two events (SF and W&R) was people's expectations and whether those expectations were met or not.

Bottom Line.... Set the expectation level with the NOR and SI... Deliver the goods = no upset.

Take on really finding out if expectations were met. It's tough to get the real scoop... just the usual happy talk.

Also... you need some idea region wide of what to do with the odd ball boats. It's too late to decide it at the skippers meeting.

Protest them under rule 12 (port startboard) when u have a p/s incident. They are pretty hard to get out of if they are wrong, they should hopefully lose that.
Numbers dont mean anything, there should only be one of thier crew in the protest room. Protest the rc and protest comitee if theyre leeting more in.

And if they threaten you any more or tell you to gte lost protest them under rule 69 and get them banned from sailin

http://www.adelaidesailingclub.com.au/
Club name and website above for those who asked.

Who do you protest when you receive anonymous threats?

I talked to the race committee several times, change is not on their agenda. At one of the meetings I participated in, some very simple changes were put forward to simplify Sailing Instructions so that visitors and new members wouldn't waste there first few races at the club trying to find their way around the course. The nay sayers argument was, "we cant change because we have never done it that way" proposal was almost unanimously defeated.

I'm not interested in a "parting shot" in my experience while they may agree to fix the problem the reality is they actually wont. Besides, I'm told they are reading this thread so going back there now just isn't an option.

Anyway, I think we have flogged my situation to death so tangent away.

Darryn

Darryn,


I understand your issues.

If the club you ARE leaving have any guts they might try and defend them selves; however, it does not sound like they can.

If I was a member of that club; I would be leaving. It sounds to me like the management have lost control of the whole situation.

Threats and intimidation is not part of the game....

Good luck with your new club.

Usage of [censored] language and verbal intimidation are foul. Read rule 2 again. And that took place:

A few more clarifications:

1. weeks prior to the event the OA encouraged me to attend, thinking that 2 or possibly 3 I20's were likely to attend. I was also in communication with two I20's that expressed interest...but none of these ultimately materialized...the "herding cats" image springs to mind.

2. In all the incidents I have referred to, I was not a victim of blatant on the water fouls like had happened to the OP with the mono fleet. At issue here is the verbal swearing and intimidation that occurred by SOME teams in the F18 fleet. Yes, this is technically a sportsmanship foul.

I believe over the course of the 7 races I started in, there was one actual foul against me shortly after the start. We had (another) lousy start, getting stuck behind 2 or 3 F18's, one of which was over early and created a parking lot off the line. By the time the jam cleared and we crossed, a port tacker was coming at us and there was no way he'd clear us. It was too late for him to do much, I luffed hard head to wind and loudly expressed my frustration with "Come on guys!"...They were quite apologetic was they went by, saying something like "Sorry, we'll buy you a beer later". While it would have been nice to see him take a penalty to be "Fair" to me and even his other competitors, at least the attitude he presented smoothed out my feelings. Had his attitude been indifferent or worse, I might have resorted to a protest.

At the Commodre's Classic Regatta put on by MHRA MHRA at Huntington Lake a few months back, there was one start for all classes (12 H20's, 2 Tornado's, 1 I20, 3/4 N5.8, 5.2's, 4 A-class plus other random cats). All but the 20's were Portsmouth-scored together...all started together and sailed the same course. Racing was tight with lots of crossings up & down wind on the multiple zig-zag course up the somewhat narrow lake. There was even hundreds of dollars worth of sponsor prizes on the line (MauiJim Sunglasses to the winners)...so it wasn't a beer can event. All boats, regardless of fleets and scoring implications, kept it civil and it was a wonderful event...best I have been to in many years. Maybe it was the spectacular scenary and 7000ft elevation that helped?