Too young to sail?

I've just heard on the radio that 13 year old Laura Dekker has been taken into care by Dutch authorities to stop her sailing around the world and becoming the youngest to do so!
Is this the right thing to do?

Cheshirecatman

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/08/28/dutch-dekker-world-sail-voyage-court482.html

We are all different. If she is mature enough and have the skills, let her go. Only the parents know her well enought to make the evaluation. The social workers probably dont understand anything about the ocean or sailing so now she will never be allowed to go before she is 18.

We are all different..

You could not be more wrong about that statement... Only SOME parents would have the wisdom to know. And seriously W.T.F. does a 13 year know about life and death??? She can't drink, get married or join the armed services but she can sail around the world??? What am I missing here?

When the parents are idiots the government has to step in. It's unfortunate but it happens and the sad thing is it's often too late. This is simply a desperate plea for attention by the parents nothing more.

Happy Friday.

Aren't 13 year olds supposed to be in school?

Hence, "It takes a village to raise a child." Parenting is viewed as right but should be treated as a privilege. The father should be the one ordered to have therapy.

Guiness Book of Records should also be ashamed for establishing "Youngest Teen" category for solo circumnavigating the globe by sail.

No, I am not wrong, but have an opinion differing from yours.

And that my friend is why we have child services in the states.

Randy Smyth probably could have done it at that age. He was younger than that, wasn't he, when he sailed an Aqua Cat to Catalina Island in some race?

I don't think the "village" can or will do a better job of raising children. Thats a catastrophe waiting to happen. Have any of you ever been on a board or head of a group? (I know, most of you have, its to make a point...) Most of these groups have tough times making difficult decisions. They are always trying to avoid confrontations, of course you won't see that here! My point is the "group" will never send a "child" out to play without sanitizing the areas to make sure they won't get hurt. Sure a 13 year old is normally not able to do this task, physically and mentally. But as a person that does not even remotely know about the girl, as most people providing input, how can I/we decide what she can do? Also, I read that she will be sailing with a group of boats, so theoretically she won't be alone, just by herself on the boat.

JMO FWIW

Clayton

Okay Mary, lets say the kid does it and dies... what's your position then?

I dont think I am your friend, at least not in the context you use the word now.

By the article and little information there is, she seems competent. Only the parents knows. It dont look like a case of neglect or bad intentions. It does not say anything about what the plan was.

And here I thought you were all for personal freedom and responsibility, but not when you disagree in the parents conclusions?

I dont have a problem with anybody disagreeing with me, but you piss me off with your attitude.

I hadn't heard about that. I'd love to know the details. I can see it now... Set adrift on an Aquacat as a baby and raised by dolphins and seahorses to come back to civilization, open a sail loft, and dominate US multihull sailing. That would go a long ways in explaining his prowess.

Ding an attitude ...NAAAHHHH ,come on. Be careful Rolf, he cries easy.

The "village" is not in lue of parenting, just to prevent the extremes. The article link provided said nothing about a floatila. In that case, there is a "village" to ensure the minor's safety.

Ok, so who will define the extremes? Someone in the village? I may be wrong in the statement about a floatila (I won't go back to look for it) but, "IF" there was that might be the parents safety net.

IN MY OPINION, its not a good idea, but thats just me.

Peace,
Clayton

To compare a sail of 26 miles to Catalina and an around the world solo sail, just doesn't seem right.

13 yr old female is going to be more capable of this task than a 13 yr old male. I think Rolf is right, the parents and the child know what is possible. We in the US cannot compare our children to a dutch child. The social and economic situations are very different. The dutch as I understand really respect the family unit and embrace it. Parents and children interact far more than US families.

Its too easy to say she should be protected for her own safety, its her life and her dream. If she dies its her own decision. Live and let live!!!

Is Randy Aquaman?

Oh yea.. back to the topic.. IMHO...
i think its crazy to let a teenager circumnavigate. they do not have the ability (in most cases) to comprehend the finality of a poor decision out there. If an adult makes a "sound decision" that puts their life in jeopardy.. they have made a choice. if a minor dies because they made a bad choice, the parents are and should be responsible.

I am almost ALWAYS bothered when i see children charged as adults.. regardless in the crime. The reason their are child courts is because it is believed children do not have the capacity to act as "reasonable adult" would and should.

I know when i was a kid (only a year ago or so) i had a very skewed idea of life and death and mostly my own immortality.

PS i am not a parent.. but i did stay at a Holiday Inn last night

Just curious, if you follow the thread on the 2 guys on a cat going across the Atlantic, how would a 13 year old handle that kind of $#%^. Especially in a boat that will probably have a tough time getting out of its own way!

Call me a wuss, I'll stick to my "safe" stuff. I don't need no village to tell me so!

Clayton

Would it be better if there had been no pre launch publicity and she had just gone and done it. How many detractors would there then be? She would already have proven them wrong. I do feel there is too much cosetting goes on these days. My parents were after all both working at 13, and for this girl she knows sailing as a way of life and has already more experience than many on this site.

Cheshirecatman

You are right on that point,

"Its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!"

Not mine, but its right!

Clayton

Actually, I spent the last few weeks in the Netherlands, and there is a bit more to this than what the headlines say...the family unit here might be a contributing factor, because as I understand it the parents are recently divorced or are in the process of doing so....the authorities think that this might have played a role in the girl's decision, maybe as a coping mechanism....not exactly a good reason for a solo circumnnavigation! BTW, the decision is not final, there is another hearing in 2 months.

Just to scale it down a bit, do you think 2, 13 year olds could handle the Tybee 500?

I wasn't looking to win friends here Rolf the stakes are too high! Any parent that is willing to risk their childs life for what amounts to nothing more than a STUNT pisses me the F!@# OFF!

So you have the whole story and are ready to jugde.
Whatever you write here have no influence what so ever on how the situation develops in the Netherlands. The question posted was rhetoric and most adults are able to understand that.

I am out of here.

I take it you mean 'sail the course' on an 8.3m leaner. It's not can she race a beach cat around the world it's can she navigate around the world in approximately two years. Zac Sunderland at 17 did it in 13 months. Quadriplegic Hilary Lister (see BBC1 tonight) has just sailed around Britain!

Cheshirecatman

Well if Tad can do it ,I don't see why not!:P

Todd, Damn you I just spit coffee all over the monitor. . .

Hahaha... tuff crowd

What's it rate???

8 Meter boat seemed a bit small to me. Anybody know what kind of boat that is?

FRom the front page of Yahoo.com:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090828/ap_on_re_eu/eu_netherlands_young_sailor

Having seen (or rather cleaned up) the remains of what happens when youngsters drive cars, I can imagine that the maturity level of anyone attempting such a feat as a global circumnavigation must be extremely high. Just don't see that kind of thing happening (especially in USA where we tend to coddle children to such an extent we shield them from consequences of immature action).

I liked the earlier post about the other teen that circumnavigated with his parents in a boat behind him. That seems to offer a slightly increased level of safety (repeat SLIGHTLY).

Is there some way the courts are deciding her ability to complete the undertaking safely? Would "proving" herself in some shorter singlehand event (in the same boat) be enough (something like trans-pac)?

I would estimate there is a reason teenagers don't regularly cross the ocean by themselves... Reading those posts from team ROXY during her journey almost made that type of sailing 'pleasant'. If I wasn't such a crumudgeon I'd actually believe that!

I think an argument could be made that it would be hard to find a better classroom.

I agree with you on the classroom part, I look for opportunities to take my kids OUT of class and actually DO things...

13 yr old part . . thats a streach, I see a lot of kids doing things their parents want them to do. I see a lot of parents who think their kids are ready, I have fallen into that trap...

Have any of you read the book Maiden Voyage. It is about an eighteen year old girl sailing a 26 foot boat around the world 27,000 miles. Tania (the sailor) spent 2 years sailing the trip and learned things she would have never learned if she had not gone on the trip. It is a great read.

5 years make one hell of a difference, especially at that young.

Not making judgements on them, just saying my kids won't be doing that!

C

I saw Ellen Mc Aurthur cry in a storm, can you imagine a 13yo girl? Hell, I would have been crying more than Ellen, as she is a BADASS!
Mosleyout!

That is a Hurley 800, my sister and brother in-law have one actually, A very simple boat but very seaworthy.

I have been following the discussion about the girl quite closely, one thing I noticed that a lot of people
(including sailors) don't actually know what a cruising circumnavigation is about.
They might hear about it on the news and see the occasional V70 with gorillas-type guys grinding the winches or whatever.
The truth is that there are thousands of people doing it. The media and the judge have the idea that she will be by
herself for 2 years living in some sort of isolation, which is far besides the truth.
I did a circumnavigation with my parents when I was young so talk from personal experience.
I don't really have an opinion on whether she should go or not, but if the has the skills, proper preparation, and planning I think it should be possible.
She certainly sounds very bright in interviews.

I think the courts made an excellent decision. They will allow childcare and an as yet unnamed "neutral party" to run their assessments of her capabilities and then decide. The father who apparently has legal custody retains this (proof to me were not quite living in a police state..yet).
I think this will become an excellent learning experience for a lot more people than foreseen... Just hope this legal tangle will not "damage" (a term almost impossible to define) the girl more than any circumnav probably would...
My take: the girl is absolutely my hero for trying, the dad the baddy for actually letting her ;-)

Forget about too young, how about too small a boat?

Anyone know the record for the smallest sailboat to cross the Atlantic? (and by whom, and when)


Hey, remember that 11 yr. old girl who was going to be "The youngest girl to ever fly an airplane across the country..." ?? How'd that turn out?

The boat is definitely not the smallest, there are a lot of 25ft boats sailing around (Vancouver 25 for example).
About irresponsible parenting, what about the Vendee and V70 sailors who all have families?

I know a circumnavigation in an 8ft boat is recorded and I also recall some ocean journey (possibly a circumnavigation) in a 6'10" boat.

My son first took the controls of an aircraft when aged 6. By the time he was 14 he was happily performing stunts. At the age of 10 my daughter after 20 minutes instruction was happily helming a KL13.5 in Quiberon bay. So much so I set her off just her and her mother(qualified sailor but very uneasy about it). My daughter was calming her mother down! When exposed to challenging situations children can be incredibly adaptable when the fears of others are not imposed upon them. My fears are that the beaurocratic processes will crush the spirit in this girl. What we have not heard about is the backup and planning support for the trip. It is not two years 'alone' but a travelling experience by boat taking up to two years. Remember careful planning (timing, weather routing etc.) can be used to minimise risks. Psycological assessment!!!!! It would be interesting to learn what the psycologists would have said about Ellen MacArthur before she started her teenage adventures.

Cheshirecatman

Personally, I would feel safer in a small boat, like no bigger than 24-25 foot.

And about sailing around the world: Many people do it, including elderly people and disabled people. When you are not racing, you can pick your weather time carefully for each passage, and spend as much time as you want or need to do it safely.

For a 13-year-old girl, I would worry more about her safety when she is in port than when she is out on the water.

http://www.amazon.com/April-Fool-Ca...mp;s=books&qid=1251503649&sr=1-1



Come on Mary, I threw you a softball!

Way back in about 1969, Hugo Vihlen, of Homestead, FL, sailed a homebuilt 6' plywood boat across the Atlantic Ocean, from Casablanca to Ft. Lauderdale and then they named the Killer Whale at the Miami Seaquarium after him, HUGO, the Killer Whale. Mary, were you living up north back then? I thought for sure you would know this one.

OK, once is bad enough, but twice would be crazy, right? Well, shortly after some crazy butt Brit broke Hugo's 6' record by sailing a 5'10" boat across the Atlantic, Hugo did it AGAIN, in a 5'6" boat! YES, he spent about $60,000 and a couple years building the boat, this one was of composite materials vs. the first one which was simple plywood. But he still holds the record for smallest sailboat across the Atlantic.

It took him about 90 days the first time, only 60 days the second, but the second time he went east, from Nova Scotia to England.

How do I know all this? Because his son, Dana, was in my USAF pilot training class and told me all about his Dad. In later years, I was hired to fly at Delta Air Lines, where by the way, Hugo also flew, as a very senior L10-11 Captain!

It took him about 7 hours to cross the Atlantic in the L10-11 and 60 days in the 5'6" boat.

http://www.amazon.com/Stormy-Voyage-Fathers-Day/dp/0943400910/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

Look closely at the picture, he is standing on the boat!

Oh, BTW Rick and Mary, Hugo now lives on a 58' Hatteras tied to the dock behind his son Dana's house, which is in Tavanier. You might run into one of them sometime. And Dana's wife is a nurse at that big hospital down there, ask for Nancy Vihlen if you have to go. ;^)

Oh, allmost forgot, the 11 yr. old girl that was going to fly across the country? She died when she crashed just after takeoff in Montana, flying into a snowstorm. The airplane was overloaded with video equipment and her jackass of a dad in the back seat...they both died.

I think ABC news was partly to blame, they asked her to cary all that extra weight in video equipment, and they also pushed her to take off that morning instead of waiting out the storm, because they (ABC) were running late and didn't want any more delays lest they miss the 6pm news of her arrival at the next stop...

I guess they got their story.

Brilliant.

Timbo, we weren't in Florida until 1983. In 1965 I was working for a newspaper in Lake County, Ohio and interviewed the wife of Robert Manry while he was sailing the smallest boat ever (at that point) across the Atlantic. Back at that time I don't think he was doing it to set a record -- it was just some kind of personal challenge. Here's a little blurb from Wikipedia:

Robert Manry (June 2, 1918 – February 21, 1971) was a copy editor of the Cleveland Plain Dealer who in 1965 sailed from Falmouth, Massachusetts to Falmouth, Cornwall, England in a tiny 13.5 foot (4 m) sailboat (an Old Town "Whitecap" built by the Old Town Canoe Co. of Old Town, Maine, which he had extensively modified for the voyage) named Tinkerbelle. Beginning on June 1, 1965 and ending on August 17, the voyage lasted 78 days.

At the time, the Tinkerbelle was the smallest boat to make a non-stop trip across the Atlantic Ocean. Manry later wrote about the voyage and its preparation in his book Tinkerbelle, in which the sailor expressed shock and surprise at the huge crowds and armada of small boats that greeted his arrival in Cornwall.

Seriously! Have any of you storm talkers been out in the open ocean where you look around and there is NO land in sight?

The open ocean waves are NOTHING compared to what you see close to shore.

Oh and big ocean cruiseliners do not count. Anything smaller than 300ft in big swells takes some serious cojones and a bullet proof digestive system that can hold food back.

Been there done that got the shirt and wont be back!

13 yrs old in a 25ft boat is freaking stupid! what is the point? To fulfill a dream? she has an entire life in front of her to do it why so young? There is definitely a hidden agenda with the father.

Did you mean the opposite, that the waves you see close to shore are NOTHING compared to the open ocean waves?

Anyway, I'm all for letting her do the trip. She is going to be 14, and I think I would have been capable of doing that when I was 14. I STILL think so, even in hindsight.

If she freaks out early in the voyage, she will still be close to shore and can turn around and come home. Just like kids who run away from home and suddenly realize, "This isn't fun."

I would feel a lot better about her safety, though, if she were doing the voyage on a Wharram catamaran than on a monohull that can sink.

P.S. It is not like she is going to be alone at sea for two years. People who spend that kind of time (two years) circumnavigating are spending more time ashore than they are on the water. Sounds like a GREAT education.

As a parent of 6 children I believe it is utterly ridiculous to even consider letting a 13 year old (or 14 or 15) sail around the world alone.

Sure, traveling with her parents around the world would be a great education. But that's a whole different scenario.

Why would a parent want to miss out on and cheat their kid out of that wonderful period of parenting?

You're kidding, right?

So, providing the the guidance and support required for such a trip is not good parenting? If such a positive attitude was shown to other children I am sure a number of 'social problems' would not be so prevalent. Two tears alone? I think not. A circumnavigation made up of numerous short hops. This is not Sir Robin Knox Johnston battling non-stop against the prevailing winds! What an education, learning practically about how to overcome numerous issues. She obviously has a degree of competence and determination to put such a challenge in front of her. Modern communication means support is readily available. I'm with Mary on this one. Let it happen.

Cheshirecatman

Right on Robi! I have been on the North Atlantic on 100 ft fishing vessels in BFT 11-12, and there is no way I would let my 13 year old (actually mine is 12...) take the chance of experiencing that! Even Bft 6-7 on the open ocean is very hairy in a 24 ft boat...
It will be an education allright!

And it sounds to me like she would be a LOT more competent than these guys in midlife crisis who have always had a dream about sailing around the world, even though they have never sailed before, and they take an A.S.A. sailing course and buy a boat and go for it. Now, THAT is SCARY!

Why would she have to experience that? Lots and lots of people are sailing around the world all the time, and they have absolutely no problem, because they can pick their weather and have no deadlines.

It's not like racing or commercial fishing or charters or boat deliveries, where you have deadlines and end up getting into trouble as a result.

Local long time Hobie racer, Peter Nelson is living the dream, with son Will. Ruth will join them shortly.
Follow their adventure at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/timewarp1/

Caleb Tarleton

Obviously you have never been out in the open ocean in a vessel small enough to really scare the crap out of you.

A 13 year old? Mary come on you honestly think a 13 year old child has the maturity of a mid-life crisis adult? How will a 5kt sh!t box outrun a hurricane that is trucking along at 15 to 20kts? Or a typhoon? How about when the cold fronts coming roaring down from the north and bring massive swells? Seriously think about it, the risks out number the gains.

Its a STUPID idea. Because of people like her parents we the folks who saves lives have to risk our own to make sure they are safe when crap hits the fan.

Lots of people are sky-diving all the time as well without problems, but that doesn't mean we should let parents strap their young children to parachutes and throw them out of an airplane. Regardless that she has no deadlines and can choose her times to sail, there's no doubt that her parents are placing an extraordinary risk on this young girls life, and I fail to see how anyone can support a parental decision to put their 13 year old childs life at such a risk. For three years I was a camp counselor for kids this age, and it's absurd if anyone thinks a 13 year old can fully understand or appreciate this journey, or for that matter truly desire it for themselves in lieu of parental pressure.

Here's the thing, is she truly going "alone" or is there going to be a flotilla escourt or a one boat escourt, or what?

If there is going to be any escourt, what's the friggn' point? All she would be doing is taking directions from the escourts anyway. Are they just trying to get into the Guinness book of stupid ideas?

Now, if instead she is truly going -alone- as in zero escourt or outside help, well, that's just stupid. Forget about the weather, how is she going to deal with pirates for example? What is she Annie Oakley? And can she physically pull herself back aboard if washed, or just trips and falls overboard? Even if she is wearing a harness and teather it's a tough haul if the boat is moving.

And when (not if) she turns up missing, who will be held accountable?

And Robi, you can appreciate this, in that story about the shortest boat I mentioned above, the reason Hugo had to leave from Nova Scotia on his second crossing was, the US Coast Guard sent him a letter which said his vessel was unseaworthy and if he was found in US Waters, he would be towed in, arrested, and his boat would be confiscated. So he went up north to launch.

I love my job, we keep idiots from voluntarily killing themselves in the ocean.

Here's my take on that, you (the US Coast Guard) send them a warning, such as they did with Hugo, then you say Adios, fair winds, hope you have a nice trip.

If things go to sh!t and she capsizes and her daddy wants the USCG to fly 300 miles out into a storm to help...TFB. I think this is the general feeling with the solo round the world racing too, right?

Still you can never underestimate the stupidity of some people, didn't we just have a couple people killed in TS Danny? And the poor little girl (and her idiot dad) up on the cliff in Acadia Nat. Park in Maine when Hurricane Bill came by.

Gee, why weren't they warned?? Oh, that's right, they were, and they went ahead and did it anyway...brilliant.

I would hope that one would do some planning for contingencies when prepraring for a trip like this, and not just hope for the best....I think it is irresponsible to assume or plan that someone can get around without running into a single storm system. While a significant part of the trip can be completed by harbor-hopping, there are some large chunks of ocean to cross in order to get around...Planning for the weather on one of these larger crossings is impossible, since big weather systems can spin up in a matter of days, and in that boat there is no chance to outrun them!

http://www.lauradekker.nl

English site not up yet but google www.lauradekker and get google to translate it.

Cheshirecatman

That's a tough question. As somebody else said on this thread, everyone is different.

Actually, I'm 100% serious.

It appears I have a different take on the situation. I feel to much focus is placed on the individual aspect of Laura's journey.

First, can Laura do it ? Well, young persons have done more challenging things in times of war or over the past ages. Some even made it to the position of leading massive armies into battle at a very young age like Joan of Arc. Alexander conquered the known world at 16 I believe. But this is simply not the point in my opinion.

I also believe that "She can learn more on the trip then in school" is BS also. I don't share the view that the world is one big playground that is designed for us human beings to have a good time. Or that having kids grow up in well defined structures (school) instead of wandering about freely is a bad thing. School is just as much about learning to live inside a human society (laws, regulations, etc) as it is about gaining knowlegde.

I also think Laura is learning a valuable lesson right now and that is that it is smart not pick a public fight with authorities. This lesson appears to be overdue with respect to the father.

Fact of the matter is that our current societies are simply not designed to allow persons of such a young age to make journeys like that solo. There are little obstacles like "not being regarded as legally capable", "not being allowed to leave school before you are 16" and the fact that they sought publicity too soon and tried to give the finger to the authorities (of multiple nations I might add).

At this point the authorities can simply not let her go anymore as then they will be faced with 1000's of inner city kids with questionable futures that all believe they can make it to the top of the basketball league and want to train 24/7 for it (meaning skip school). Of course when they fail it will be societies responsibility to care of them or they'll smash up bus cabins out of fustration or become criminals. Laura is threatening to create a precedent that will make enforcing the law alot harder in the future. Maybe this is unfair to Laura, but hey life is unfair ! That is lesson number two that she (or they) is learning right now.

Another aspect is what happens when she causes an accident instead of being involved in a accident herself. She is legally not regarded as being capable of handling on her own (even if in reality she may be). Nobody is looking forward to untangling such a legal mess that may indeed fall on anybodies doorstep. What if the other party sues the Dutch government for knowingly letting her go and pay for the costs/fine ? This is also the reason why New Zealand has release the press communique that they are expecting to treat her the same way as the Dutch government is. They too are not looking forward to handling this hot case with ample potential for legal problems and damaged public prestige. New Zealand doesn't want to be on record as being a safe-haven for kids looking to get out of school.

Potential for Record-breaking ? Nations simply do not care when responsibilities and legality of it all aren't well defined. That is one of the more important lessons in your life that you won't we learning by wandering alone over the oceans.

People think they are totally free entities but nobody really is. We are social animals and ever since we existed we have lived in social structures that limit our freedoms. Lets not pretent that this has changes in the last 50 years because it really didn't.

Personally, I believe a trip around the world can be very educational but I don't really see why it needs to happen at 13. The worlds will still be there at 18 and even at that age Laura will be very capable at learning about it. So I don't share the sense of urgency to letting her go now. I feel she shold just finish her secondary education and only then leave on this solo trip. Of course, she won't be in the race for the record then but I really don't understand why a nation should be breakig its own laws for acquiring such a questionable symbol of prestige. The damage of (publically) handling two standards is just too large in relation to the (symbolic) benefit.

I predict that Laura will not leave shore legally and that she won't be moving to New Zealand either. When sailing in UK waters she will be arrested (because of that little incident when she crossed the north sea last time) and I'm sure the pirates of Somalia, Niger, Sumatra or whatever can't wait to capture her and ask the Dutch government for rantsom or sell her off to the harem of same obscure sultan requiring several million bucks to send in the marines. I'm not sure how safe a flotilla is in this respect. Hell we can't even protect large ocean cruisers at this moment.

Wouter

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.

http://www.mtv.com/lyrics/judy_collins/joan_of_arc/316533/lyrics.jhtml

Excellent points, Wouter.

Their mistake was in publicizing the trip and the fact that the parents had approved it.

And having the attitude that they know best and that other people/organisations should just accept their individualistic (selfish) viewpoint.

The laws aren't here to cater to the individual but to advance the greater common good. In that scheme of things posponing the trip to when she is 17 or 18 and after having completed her schooling is sufficient (individual) freedom. Overhauling these laws, and risk greater abuses down the line, to suit one personal extreme case is not.

I also think that the way they handled the English incident was the point where they sealed their fate. Laura was detained in England as the authorities didn't approve her skippering a sail boat singlehandedly at that young age. The father was summoned to pick her up, he refused. Then she was placed in a child care home and her father eventually did come to pick here up and take her home he put her on the boat and allowed her to sail away singlehandedly against the strict orders of the English authorities.

They had their warning and they chose to stick the finger in the eyes of the authorities. If you do that then you shouldn't be surprised that the authorities "make work" of you and even make an example out of you. The Brits then informed the Dutch child care organisations and by that time everything had become official and we all know that then the letter of the law is stricktly applied.

I can't shake the feeling that the father failed to learn an important lesson on his past adventures. This is western Europe and not some banana republic were you can arrange for anything with enough cash and determination.

Maybe Laura can take on the nationality of say Somalia; we all know they are pretty relaxed about applying law and order; especially of the maritime kind !

Wouter

This would happen in an ideal world, where all laws would be created through an evolutionary process that already converged to an equilibrium. New laws voted by legislators frequently fail to pass simple common sense tests, so they aren't always good for the community.

If we accept that the current laws regarding minimum age for civil responsability are adequatedly fine tuned by evolution, it is correct to deny permission for a minor to go around the world alone.

To justify breaking this law, one has to believe that the minimum age should be adjusted to 13 years old as a consequence of new circumstances introduced. Although this might be the case with many laws, it is not true on this one, for the minimum age for civil responsibility has been increasing in the last 5000 years.

Before biblical times, one was deemed responsible for his acts when able to diferentiate the left hand from the right one (4 y.o.). Then we started to use puberty (13 y.o.), which is easily verifiable and makes sense for reproduction.

More recently, since the total volume of knowledge increased due to science and press, the age increased to 16 to 21 years old, more or less coinciding with the age when formal education is completed. This timing is reasonable because one can not obey laws that he can not understand, so learning should precede responsability.

Since the knowledge database, the technologies available and the minimum required level of personal sophistication are in expansion, and since people have more access to education, it is quite obvious that the minimum age tends to increase and not decrease. The existing law is complacent, if anything.

The girl's parents accepted to expose her to risks and responsabilities that were acceptable at her age in the past, but not nowadays. If they fail to understand this situation, the state's intervention is justified.

On the other hand, if my daughter wanted to do the same and I knew she was up to the task (which she isn't), I would move to a country in an earlier development stage, where the law would be older and the minimum age lower. Then all could be done legally. And I would have to accept that my education and sophistication was in its "early development stages" too...

It is state intervention that will undoubtably mean she will never be allowed to do this as a minor, regardless of skill and abiity. By intervening in the first place the authorities will now have two choices. To deny permisssion or to allow her to go. If they now allow her to go they are giving their approval with associated liability for their decision.
The result will be they will not allow her to go just to cover their backsides.

Cheshirecatman

How will they prevent her from going? It's like, how do you prevent a child from running away from home? I guess in this case the authorities could confiscate the boat and eliminate that particular means of escape.

A good can of a$$whooping

Obviously, money is part of the problem here. If her father were not enabling her by providing her with a boat, as well as his consent, she would not be able to even consider doing this venture unless she worked to raise the money herself to buy a boat and fit it out and provision it, or could find a sponsor (doubtful on the latter). The father should just have said, "Go for it, if you can pay for it."

I also agree that the World Records-whatever-it-is should NOT include official records for the youngest person to circumnavigate solo. It's ridiculous. Are we going to end up with an 8-year-old going around the world on an Opti?

P.S. This has nothing at all to do with whether or not Laura would be CAPABLE of doing it.

Despite my inapropriate wording, while there is just the INTENTION to break the law, authorities can not take legal action. All they can do is explain that the parent's plan would breach certain laws and that there would be legal consequences.

Only after she actually sets sail can the relevant authorities fine and/or punish the parents for the illegal acts and, depending on the gravity, send a report to another branch of justice to decide if the situation justifies turning her custody to someone else.

In normal countries it is quite difficult to convince a judge that a child should be taken from normal parent's custody, even when their public statements are in support for illegal acts. I believe there is some bluffing going on, probably linked to politics.

Of course there is the issue of clearing into other countries. Places that she would stop might have an issue with such a young person being un-attended. Then what about the unscrupulus out there (pirates notwithstanding)?

Clayton

Precisely. Being the first to eat more than 100 hot dogs in x minutes and other freak records are isolated problems. However, fostering the competition for such claims poses an evolutionary threat to the species, for the popularization of those conducts would clearly have a negative effect on survival.

If sailing around the world alone at 13 had any potential to become a positive trait for future human survival, we would all support it.

IMHO it's not Guinness World of Records responsibility. if there is a record.. they make money promoting / printing it... they are not in the business of promoting responsibility or good decisions.

this is where parenting and responsibility take over.

i don't agree nothing can be done until and illegal act is done... look what was done.. she was put into the courts control.. and "conspiracy" is the charge of talking and planning to do something illegal.. not the act of doing it.

I would not feel comfortable leaving my 13 year old at mall alone for an evening let alone on the open ocean.

I am not so sure about that. If she has a proper license (a non-professional captain license) issued by the authority of her country of origin, she can probably enter and leave any port.

In Brazil, for instance, one doesn't need an official license to sail small recreational boats without an engine up to certain limits.
At sixteen one is allowed to apply for the first official license, good for recreational boats in an enclosed body of water.
Two years after receiving the first license (meaning more than 18), one can apply for a recreational coastal permit.
Another two years after receiving the second license (meaning at least 20, but usually 21) one can apply for a recreational worldwide permit, boats up to 20 tons.

This means that it is impossible for a Brazilian to obtain the license required to sail around the world before he is 20 years old. However, a foreigner with an equivalent worldwide permit should be allowed to stop and leave, regardless of age. The foreign boat is foreign territory and the laws and regulations regarding its captain's license are those of the foreign country.

Social Responsability is important for any busines. It is even more important for ISAF or WRSSC, that are not for profit organizations.

IMHO
I wish more companies were "more ethical" but it is not business's role to impose mores.. it is societies. If society doesn't agree.. they vote with thier wallet.

I agree it is different for ISAF or WRSSC. these are not "businesses" these are regulators responsible for lives and safety of the public

an

Different 15 year old girl atempting to sail the world, Jessica Watson, hit a 63,000 ton cargo ship with her S+S 34 foot sailboat. Delaying the start of her around the world adventure. Guess she didn't see the little boat. Maybe she was texting

Middle of the night, she was in her bunk and it came from behind, she's pretty lucky and still keen to go on.

ISAF have products and charge for services. They are not for profit but operate much like businesses except that they dont have to fear loosing customers or going out of business.

It's a very good debate. I've enjoyed reading all of it. Personal responsibility vs. The Nanny State. Rolf hit the nail on the head early on.... I thought this country (The U.S.) was founded and relied on individual responsibilities. "The right to swing my fist ends at your nose" type of reasoning.

Where does the right for The Government to step in and make a predetermination of danger eminate from?

Great debate. Thanks. Wish we could converse like this always......

Greg

I cut and pasted this out of my latest UK-Halsey Newsletter. Abby is the 15-year-old (almost 16) younger sister of Zac Sunderland, who just completed his circumnavigation. She is preparing to do it solo, but also nonstop.

From Abby Sunderland
I have wanted to sail around the world alone since I was 13-years-old. At 13 I had been single-handing boats on a regular basis, but my parents weren’t ready to let me go. As disappointing as it was to be
told that I was too young, I did understand their reasoning, and so, I kept on working towards my goal.
When I was 14, Zac launched his campaign to sail around the world alone. It was a bit of a shock at first to hear that he was now doing it, but it was great being able to help out with his campaign. Watching Zac’s trip, we have all learned loads, and now after almost three years of dreaming and planning I’m finally pulling together my own campaign.
What am I going to do? Sail solo, non-stop and unassisted around the world alone. The plans, if every thing goes according to plan, (how often does that happen!) are to leave this November from Marina del Rey and to return in April, six months later.
My route will take me down around all the major capes. Yes, it’s a scary thought, alone in some of the roughest places there are, but I have been doing this sort of thing my whole life. Right now I’m in training. I’m also trying to keep up with my classes that have started. Sponsorships have been coming in and we are searching for just the right boat to make my dream a reality.

And the UK authorities have not taken her into care yet?

I suppose doing it non-stop she will not face the potential bureaucratic issues surrounding Laura Dekker's planned multi-stop trip.

Cheshirecatman

If you are talking about the Sunderlands, they live in California.

Whoops! Wires crossed with Mike Perham.

We are too frightened of the attrition rate that real living brings. Everyone needs to be saved all of the time...nonsense.
Let her go. She will go on to be one of mankind's very special or very dead.
Stop and think...how does it affect you if this young person dies at sea?...not at all....it is just people being busybodies in the lives of people who want to get on with real living.
Don't worry for me if I find the sailors grave. Do not stop others taking risks because I drown at sea, celebrate my death.
Let the living dead hide in their homes and with all of their insurance. Why do they want to stop others taking risks?!
Others of us understand that if we do not risk our lives, we do not deserve life.
There are six billion of us for God's sake, the more gone, the better.

Good post. And I agree.

Nice to hear from you again, Warbird.

Most agree with that once or even a few times. It is the repetition of the pattern that brings us concerns.

While safety rules might not be essential for one or a few individual out of billions, for society as a whole - and for its evolution - compliance with wise rules is essential.

What is right in particular is not necessarily right as a rule.

Interesting debate on radio today regarding the Muslim girl in Florida asking not to be sent back to her family in Ohio because she feared for her life. Made me think about this case of the girl sailing and whether the "Government" follows the law or the families wishes. The similarities of the two cases are eerie.

I wonder how many of those people who say that the Government should stop the girl from sailing would also say the girl should be sent back to her family and vice versa....

My feeling is to NOT send the Muslim girl back home but I think the sailing girl should be allowed to go if she (and her family) wishes to risk her own life.

Your logic is the same in both cases: you want each government to respect the individual's decision, you favor freedom.

How much a government should be allowed to interfere with each one's life is difficult to determine. The failed comunist experience in the Soviet Union drew the line too close to the individual. The US used to go to the other extreme, but changed.

I believe that evolution solves this type of problem for people regardless their beliefs and preferences.
If you want to spend time on this problem, the real challenges are how to accelerate convergence at the equilibrium and how to choose between equilibria when more than one is available.

All the best,
Luiz

Very true Luiz. Does this logic ultimately end at the suicide question? Does the individual control their own life? Does this girl (or by extension her parents) control her own destiny? Is it the right of the Government to determine if the risk of harm coming to the girl is sufficient to stop her sailing quest?

It seems to me you can't ASSUME she will be in harms way by sailing singlehanded around the world. Especially if she is within a flotilla the whole way.

Very interesting.
Greg

my feeling this is getting away from the sailing topic and now asking what your political opinions are..and mine are "not posted here"

I can understand your opinion but the question still comes down to "Is sailing so dangerous that a 13 year old girl should not be allowed to follow her dream?" It's not really relevent, I guess, who stops her (or if they stop her).

What you are saying is it is a very hard thing these days to completely eliminate politics from any of the hard decisions of the day. Is that right? From fees (leevied against us by governments) to register the boat, to whether our pulling the boats up the dunes ruins the environment, all the way to whether this girl needs to be stopped from following her goal. It's all got some connection to Politics does it not?

With all due respect, what i am saying is i HATE political discussions here... i respect the right to debate politics and parties and agendas, but i loath it. I have friends that all they do is bash the govt. and are conspiracy theorist.. and i find it all negative, and detrimental to the public well being.

i don't care to hear people's opinion on whether it is negative, or needed, despite the fact that it may be needed and educational... It has been overblown, is hot air, and over kill.

i come here to learn about sailing and sailing topics.. not to debate if Obama is a socialist or Bush was idiot...

I can respect that.

So here is the question..... Do you think it is dangerous to sail a small boat around the world regardless if you are 13 or 19 or 40 IF you are surrounded by a flotilla? I think I would have LOVED the challenge when I was younger but now...... not so much. Would you consider it if you didn't have all the "stuff" (family, job etc) to consider?

We can't assume that she will be in harms way, but we know for sure that her behaviour is not conductive to better survival rates if practiced by people in general. We know for sure that it is a bad precedent.

Evolutionary forces tend to eliminate from the gene pool those who tend to expose themselves to high risks at young age. This means nature will take care of things if she is allowed to sail.

I tend to believe that it makes sense to restrain her instead of expose her to evolutionary elimination of her genes/conduct (meaning herself or most of those who follow her behavior pattern). It is faster and less painful. Naturally, I will change my mind if convinced that her behaviour is conductive to better survival rates.

I do, however, agree that governments in general are poorly prepared to handle this type of situation and that their decisions are deviated by politics, with a history of failure when it comes to decisions conductive to better survival rates.

Thank you, as i respect your right to freedom of speech and opinion..


Yes... but so is driving to the store...


I was invincible as a kid and loved to sail sunfish and lasers at camp. I never once thought about sailing around the world.. let alone around the lake more than 1 or 2 times...


hell no.. i have no desire to be stuck on a boat for more than a few days... i prefer a hot shower and a bed.. 4 years in the navy was enough for me... (and i have less than 2 weeks "sea time")