rope clutch issue

Ok men, more advice needed to keep Flight Risk operating. This boat has a 36'wing mast that uses a 5/16" V100 (vectran core) halyard that enters the mast at the head, and exits the base of the mast thu an Easylock Mini (never heard of this brand) rope clutch, then to a Schaefer Series 3 fairlead blk on hinged base plate, which allows raising the main by pulling the hlyd upwards from the base while feeding the slugs into the track. The clutch not only secures the hldy with the main full hoisted, but also holds the hlyd each time I insert another slug. But this sucker is chewing up my $100 hlyds with too great a frequency, 3 times in the last 4 yrs. The clutch is always under load with the same section of line in its grippers, the mainsail fully hoisted( I guess I could cut of 6" at the shackle regularly), and it finally chews thru the cover, allowing the main to drop 6" before it sort grabs the core. The hlyd is then wasted, and I never see the wear area because it immediately enters the mast when it exits the clutch as the main is lowered.
So one thought is to blow off the clutch entirely and install a horn cleat. All the tensioning is done with the dnhl. But this solution has me holding the full weight of the main as I raise it, which is pretty substantial with this sail. And I'm rasing it solo most of the time.
Another avenue is to replace the clutch with something else, based on someone's reccomendation. Hopefully clutch technology has improved since this one was designed. But an issue there is the mounting hole dimensions. These are 3.5" on center(the body is 4.5" overall), and the nuts are buried deep within the mast base, and I'm doubtful of the holding power of the mast for lag bolts or drill and tap. So I need a quality piece of equipment that matches my mounting holes. Big request?
Are there other lines for this application that might have a tougher cover or a better bond between the cover and the core? Are there problems with V100, or is it the clutch that's the culprit? Seems like the cover was pretty loaded when it gave way, there was a noticable bang when she let loose.
Thank you gentlemen!

Dave

I don't recall exactly what kind of boat Flight Risk is - but you can cut mast compression loads in 1/2 by using a beach-cat style hook and ring at the top of the mast. You can probably adapt any of the regularly available bigger cat systems; the Nacra 20, the 6.0 (I think they're the same...or were) or have something fabricated - it's not a complicated system. Leave your clutch or put in a spin-lock style clutch that will still permit you to hoist as needed, but use the ring to carry the sailing loads saving not only the wear on the halyard but the need for an exotic line for the halyard as well.

Thanks Jake, I thought about that, and was going to mention my reasons for not considering it. FR is a 24' x 14', 800 lb boat on a BIG mountain lake, known for big stuff blowing in fast, and not always with shelter near at hand. My big concern with masthead hooks is the potential for not being able to quickly and reliably release the main, and get it down fast should conditions warrant. I'm often sailing solo, and in gnarly conditions I can't be away from the helm for more than about30 seconds before very bad things begin to happen. I have masthead hooks on the 3 other cats, and lots before as well, and I still have occasions where I can struggle to get a quick release.
So that's my reservation about hooks as a solution to this problem. Appreciate your input, as always!
Asking beachcat sailors about rope clutches may no be my most promising avenue for advice. Thoughts on other venues?

Dave

Dave

Attach a horn cleat below the jammer - jammer can be used whilst raising the sail, once up lock it off on the horn cleat and unlock the jammer!

I have sailed a Sprint 750 with this system and it had it for the same reason... chewing up halyards gets expensive!

Yeah that would be a great solution if I had the room. There's the clutch right up against the opening in the mast where the hlyd exits, and immediately below it is the swivel turning blk, and then no more mast. Maybe I can figure a way to move the tuning blk to the main beam, then I could mount the horn cleat where the turning blk is. Although I'm not sure how solid the mast is there for holding. There's a LOT of load.... Guess I could try...


Dave

Sort of off topic, but do you have any pictures of the boat? Sounds like a fun ride!

If it's a turning block, couldn't you put the cleat above the clutch and rout the halyard back up the mast from turning block {this assumes that the block will take full halyard/downhaul loading tho]

I believe Spinlock claims not to damage line. How is the current clutch mounted to the mast? How are the backing nuts held in place? You may find that they drop off when to remove the current clutch. If that is the case it does not matter where the new holes need to go. If the nuts are secure you can build a face plate that mounts in the current holes then mount a new clutch to that.
If space is a problem you could move the exit hole for the halyard further up the mast.
Ever consider a small mast mounted winch. Solves the rope problem and eases the raising of the sail.
Other option is to devise something like a H16 that uses a wire rope combination that hooks in place.

I wouldn't put a spinlock on that halyard. Granted, the ones I was using were smaller, but I've gone through several on spinnaker halyards - the failure mode is complete and instantaneous.

I think he means a spinlock clutch as opposed to the crappy spinlock cleats that are supposed to be better than Harken camcleats.

I have heard many stories about spinlock clutches just letting go - kite halyards in particular!

You might check if the clutch has an adjustment for the diameter of the halyard. If you are too small diameter you max out your holding power but you can seperate the cover and core due to the pressure at the clutch point. If you can back up to the proper diameter the clutch should hold without blowing up the line.
I know Spinlock jammers have this adjustment (don't ask how I know)

Somewhat different solution we used the large harken cam cleats for the spin halyard on Tornado's and had this problem. (Same problem as you experience... the cover and core would blow up) We would use two cam cleats inline. especially when we doubled the loads with a 1 to 2 halyard system. Perhaps this is a solution.

Ok, I'm really remiss for not taking pics while I was at the boat. This is an unconventional wing mast, built using Gougeon Bros construction details, the clutch and swivel blk are nestled into a small enclave at the bottom of the mast, on the aft side, just enough room for these two pieces of hardware. The current clutch is secured with tow 1/4" machine screws, maybe 2.5" long, to T nuts embedded deep within the base, no access.
I'm currently leaning towards some method of securing the hlyd that doesn't rely on a clutch. With all this input, and a phone call this evening to Malcom, the builder, I'm contemplating a s.s. plate that can be drilled to use the existing mounting holes/hardware for the clutch, and attach the horn cleat to the plate. For raising the main, the hlyd can pass by the cleat to a stand up blk mounted to the main beam just below the mast, then athwartship to the clutch now also mounted to the main beam. This can hold the line as the main is going up, and when fully hoisted, release the clutch and secure the hlyd to the horn cleat.
But that's today's thinking, keep it coming boys! There may be better ideas out there! Thanks!

Dave

I'll try to post some pics of the boat.

I recently had a look at a VX 40 /extreme40 cat mast. there the halyard is secured in the top of mast with a rather big clutch/cleat. This was only the top 30 cm/1ft of rope was under load [and therfore was some high tech line] the rest of the line was pretty std line, The release was done by a small rope which was attached to the release of the clutch/cleat and from there to the mast base

I could not see which brand it was [it was dark inside the mast....]

Is that a standard rope clutch? I have some trouble envisioning how a line is attached to do the release. Anyone else got info on this option?

Dave

See page 13 of <http://assets.spinlock.co.uk/documents/hi_load08_4_148.pdf> for an example of remote controlled jammer.

Pepin,
I get the Spinlock file, where in there is the remote release unit? Thanks!

Dave

Pics

more

Page 13, it's called the "ZS Remote Lock Back Switch". See the table of contents.

Excellent, many thanks!

D

Wow really cool looking boat! Who makes it?

Let us know how you end up doing it I'm curious.

I like the extreme 40 system described by Kennethsf:

* it's elegant,
* it reduces the compression on your mast by half
* You can inspect the state of the halyard where the jammer grabs it every time you raise the sail and fix the issue by cutting an inch of it
* you can buy a cheap halyard and just splice in a short length of expensive high-tech no stretch halyard. Or just live with the cheap halyard, after all it is only going to stretch over a feet or so...

There are downsides:

* you will need two lines inside your mast. The small control line and the halyard. With all the fouling risks it involves between the two.
* you will need to setup a way to lock the control line under tension to lower the main.
* the jammer is all the way up there at the top of the mast, preventive maintenance is your friend!

Also, your halyard with the cover destroyed is not wasted yet. From the break in the cover to the main head just remove the cover; Milk the cover at the bottom of the halyard back in place then bury it inside the vectran (taper it well, and I'd probably lockstich it as well, just to be safe), cut 5 to 10cms from the top so the easylock grabs on the cover when the sail is all the way up.



Nice looking boat BTW.

The boat was designed and built by Malcom Davy, a Kiwi in Kelseyville, CA, whose buisness if primarily boat restoration. But he's had some offshore experience on multihulls, and the kind of guy alway intrigued by a great idea. He built this boat to try out a bunch of construction technique and design concepts. He built a 24'cylinder mold, created 4 hull halves, joined them deck and keel, and tortured the bows and sterns into appropriate shapes. The boat has assymetrical daggerbds, one side dead flat, that need to be switched each tack/jibe. A rotating wing mast constucted out of wood/epoxy(and now a carbon wrap, long story!). A unique pod that runs down the center of the tramp between the main and rear beam that provide great storage. It continues fwd of the main beam and gracefully tapers into the spin pole. Deck launch assym spin and a furling screacher that make the boat a light air monster. When first completed the boat weighed 600 lbs, but then Malcom added the pods, and added material to the sterns to reduce their dragging. And I've probably added 50 to 75 lbs in repairs/reinforcements. Might be at 800 lbs now, still mighty light for a 24' boat. He built it light knowing that he'd find the weak points in time. Although he didn't sail it much, and that job has fallen to me. Amazingly balanced for a boat designed by the seat of the pants, the dggbds and rudders work beautifully together, light helm. I sail the boat solo most of the time, a true rush flying a hull on a boat this size.
Pepin, I too like the elegance of the clutch at the top of the mast. But I don't think I have the room up there. The mast tapers near the top, and the main hlyd exits maybe 3" from the top. I'd have to re engineer the top of the mast to get the room and solid anchoring for a clutch, maybe a future project.
I hope to return to Flathead this weekend and rig something, sailing season is drawing to a close for me, and every weekend is precious. I'll take some pics for futher consultation. I truly enjoy getting to benefit from all the input you guys offer!

dave,
first => nice boat
2nd=> in/on the VX40/Extreme40 the clutch is attached to the "back" of the mast, It is bolted trough the mast and the mast track - very simple and strong solution - [the VX40 has a track and car type of system for the main]
The mast at the VX40 is open at the top so "easy" access. I think the vx40 mast are not tappered and I could get my hand inside to get the lines out [I helped the crew to swap the damaged mast - and got a ride in return- very cool]

Thanks Kenneth.
My mast track stops just below the exit blk, and the mast above the exit blk is only about 3" tall, and a few inches front to back. I could reconstruct the whole masthead I guess, and move the exit blk down a bit, and make sure there was sufficient holding for the clutch. How is the trip line routed on the 40s? I share Pepin's concern for the potential for the trip line and the hlyd to foul each other inside the mast. Maybe the trip line could be run thru some plastic tubing that would run the length of the mast.
I'm envious, I'd love a ride on one of those!

Dave

I'll take pics of the masthead as well as the mast base, I'm headed there tomorrow afternoon.

I think the trip line is routed via a small block on the inside front of the mast - not 100% sure - but seems logical

I was thinking "cheap guy" solution:

Install masthead hook like smaller beach cats

Install snap shackle to main. Run emergency release line attached to shackle down mast.

Tie red "Emergency Pull" handle to release line. Sail will come down.

Probably not good for reefing, but maybe add a second shackle on a short strap (3') to lower main to reef point? Don't know how you'd hook both shackles to the masthead hook, but ....

Jay,
That's a great idea, I think that would work. Even reefing could be arranged. One downside is the release line messin' with the airflow over the mast/sail, although it might be hard to determine how significant that is. There's also the possible complication of not being able to see up 36' easily. And I'll post a pic of the mast tip, there's just not a lot of material up there, and its not clear how solid/strong it is. The mast construction is a bit of a mystery.
Plus, I've moved the Easylock to the main beam, and installed a horn cleat in it's place on the mast. I'll try this for a while, although your suggestion is more elegant. Thanks!

Dave

Maybe run the release line inside the mast?

Yeah, thanks Luiz. Possible, but it might foul with the main hlyd, as Pepin mentioned. Maybe I could run the release line in a long pc of plastic tubing.
Maybe not, seems like the trip line needs to pull downward on the snap shkl to get it to release. And if the trip line ran inside the mast, I'd need to be pulling on the trip line as I hoisted the main. Sounds complicated.....

Dave

okay, so the snap shackle needs a downward pull, and you can't realistically route it through the mast.

Would having a sleeve sewn in to the bolt rope or luff of the sail work? Even strong fishing line should be able to do the trick if the downhaul is released before pulling the snap shackle...

I can't imagine that the release line needs to be that big

Yeah, a sleeve is a good idea. And you're right, not much of a line needed, maybe leech line, or 1/12" Exel Pro or something similiar. I'll chat with my sailmaker. Thanks Jay!

dave

you're welcome. I hope it (or something similar) works out for you! Whatever gets you out sailing more....

your pretty sharp for a land lubber...

go figgr...

Once the kids are old enough to swim when I flip the dang thing, I won't be a lubber for long!

So here's the current(temporary?) solution. The rope clutch has been replaced with a Schaefer jam horn cleat mounted in it's place at the base of the mast. When raising the main, it runs alongside the cleat to the turning blk mounted to the main beam below the mast, then to the rope clutch now also mounted on the main beam, then to another turning blk that allows me to stand at the mast feeding the slugs into the track while pulling on the hlyd. I'm currently using the core of the destroyed hlyd, which doesn't hold all that well in the clutch. I'll replace it with a new T900 line in the spring when the boat budget will (hopefully) be in better shape.
When the main is at full hoist, I have to release the rope clutch and transfer the hlyd to the horn cleat, which is a bit of a bear in the tight space, but doable. I lose and inch or two of hoist in the process, but there's sufficient downhaul range to accomodate.
Thanks for all the advice boys! She'll finish out the season in this trim, and I'll contemplate improvements over the winter.

Dave