Request for title denied! Now what?

So here's an update on my quest to secure a title and registration. You can check out post #187834 for a little background but basically, The 1981 H16 I purchased recently, had no title or registration.

I found this out only after the boat was all loaded up and ready to go. I wasn't to concerned about the boat, as I was pretty sure a non motorized sail boat didn't need it, but the trailer was a bit of a concern. Even though the guy told me that small boat trailers no longer needed to be registered, I new that was not correct.

Since it still had the tag from the owner previous to the guy I bought it from, I figured I could contact him or do the homemade trailer deal. Well that took a little work but was fairly easy to accomplish. The boat on the other hand was a totally different story.

While I'm inquiring about the procedure for getting the trailer registered, the girl at the tag office also says that yes the boat (as of just recently) did have to be registered if it was 16' or over.

I had to have a wildlife officer come do an inspection on the boat and apply for a title. The guy felt it wouldn't be an issue and had me get an affidavit from the previous two owners stating that the boat had never been registered. The owner previous to that was from Georgia and the officer couldn't find where it had ever been registered in his name either.

He didn't think I had any cause for concern and he would recommend that a title be issued, but that if it was denied, it would be much more complicated. He also stated that selling the boat without the title was illegal and that the guy who sold it to me could get in some trouble if somebody wanted to press the issue.

Well yesterday (six weeks later) I get a 15 page document from Florida Fish and Wildlife stating that they can not issue a title and I must submit form TL-07 which is an application for certificate of title with alternate proof of ownership and securing a court order awarding ownership.

Can you believe this? What the heck do I do now?

Man, I got this for a stress reliever and so far it has been anything but that.

Five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

Various states have different rules, during different years in the past too! If there is any logic behind all this it is to keep people from selling "hot" boats. If you keep that is mind, it helps you hold on through the process.

An appraisal of the boat might help. Just to show that its value is low and that you are in fact "re-habbing" it. Might cause common sense to kick in...

It will work it out!

Wow, this is exactly what happened to me when I went to register my Capricorn six months back in Cali. I had no pink slip as the boat was bought from a guy who lived in Canada but raced in the USA w/ no domestic title.
I had a bill of sale and the importers Statement of Origin but DMV would not accept this as acceptable proof of ownership. I ended up having to go to the US customs office in Los Angeles and have a secretary comb through a dozen files before she came across the original customs form for the cargo container the cat was shipped in (three years prior). I also had to call the Capricorn dealer who placed the original order with AHPC and have a faxed copy of their invoice attached with the form. 90 days later I finally received Cali tags.
By the way did I mention they had no problem taking my $500 registration fee prior to any of my searching. I'll never understand the government thought process.

Best of luck...

Wow, I will be keeping an eye on this thread. I am pretty much in the same exact position. I just bought a old 1979 Hobie 16 with trailer and found out after getting the boat ready to go that he didnt have a title for the trailer or boat. Let us know what happens.

And we both live in Florida....lets figure this out!

I'm no expert but how about you export it to a friend in Mexico or some Caribbean island and buy it back again?
Dennis

you should be able to title a trailer as a "custom" home made one if needed in fl. You may need to buy some "parts" to prove it is custom. I had no problem doing this 10 years ago, and a friend did recently as well.. but don't look like a punk at the tax office or they may deny you.

I have yet to see anyone get a ticket or even a warning ing fl for no tags on any cat... but... as you said... it is now the law...

See Karl's post "tenn sailors" and see his recent issues... you may end up in his boat (willing to get a few tickets before it equals the trouble/cash" of registration.

I expect to be in the same boat with my canadian mystere that has changed hands many times...

I bought an unregistered boat with untitled trailer in VA. To register the boat in NC I had to have a notarized bill of sale, I also did the same thing for the trailer. The trailer was more complicated but basically just involved filling out lots of forms and taking out an indemnity bond for 1.5x the value of the trailer (of course the smallest indemnity bond an insurance company will sell is $10K but it only costs $50). The biggest hassle was that each person at DMV I talked to (I went there 4 different times) would tell me a different thing and make me fill the forms out again and even go to a different DMV location, which was not simple since the insurance agent had to sign everything again too.

You might try contacting your state congressman, seantors and enlist their help. They gave us this problem. Explain the problems your having in trying to comply with the law.

In the mean time go sailing. No one here has had a problem yet.

Believe it or not you might have better luck trying different tag offices. I bought a used motorcycle trailer once and had problems getting a tag in Pinellas. I went to Pasco and had no problems.

Fla. did this with dirt bikes a few years back and all they wanted to see was the vin# to see if it was stolen.

Unless the law has changed boats under 20 feet without power do not need to be registered. Perhaps they have you confused with a powerboat. Most of the people just assume powerboat rules.

The law has changed.. in aug (supposedly). the law used to read (non powered) boats 16' and up need to be titled and over 20' registered. it is now 16 and above need both. H16's are technically 16and change.

So far in my 10 years sailing cats.. and owning 3 i have met 1 person who actually has a title... and i have seen only 1 cat with FL reg numbers on it

Looks like they will need to grandfather a whole bunch of us in!

So from reading this I guess in the future my first question when buying a used boat is; do you have the title in you hands and is it in your name?

Interesting thread. In Oregon a boat must be registered. Even our old decrepit Sunfish has numbers. I do not know what the minimum length is for registration. I have been stopped on a lake twice in the last 10 years while sailing. Once on my P-16 and once on my P-15. Both times I had a temporary renewal while waiting for my new stickers. I carry my registration in a waterproof plastic container, about the size of a 35mm film canister. I almost got dinged many years ago with the Sunfish sitting on the beach with out of date stickers.

Fortunately the previous Prindle owner had the title when I purchased it. I have seen people without titles try to register a car or trailer, and it was a real hastle. I assume doing a boat would be just as bad.

dan

Actually the trailer was pretty easy. I just had to have the guy (previous to the guy I bought it from) send me a bill of sale for the trailer since he had previously registered it. He was very cooperative.

The boat on the other hand will now apparently require a court order of ownership for issuance of a certificate of title. Even though it appears that this boat has never been registered since 1981 and has been through at least three previous owners.

I understand the whole issue of stolen boats, but this is clearly not even a question in this case.

Even the Game Warden said it was pretty cut and dry, and that he couldn't see me having any trouble considering his background check on the previous ownership and his recommendation that it should be approved.

What a pain in the A**! Wonder what this is going to cost?

Can your class association or sailing authority help? This is the sort of thing your sailing authorities should be lobbying government about.

One way around this puzzle would be to buy a dead boat of the same model that IS registered, then blend the parts together as a hybrid boat, under the registered boat's papers. You may have to re-etch the hull I.D. -That might be considered a type of forgery, but it is probably not provable if you don't blab about what you did. Or you could just resin it over as part of a re-hab and plead dumb, if asked. The only REAL problem is, this kind of stuff works with stolen boats, too. If low-lifers wouldn't steal things, the world would be a lot less complicated.

There is no "clause for grandfathering in", at least not publicly in the Fl boat reg/title websites..
http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html#8

I think some of us will end up in Karl's boat soon .. (Karl, bring extra drinks)

Agreed, as noted above it is actually illegal to sell (or buy) a boat without a title in fl

I am willing to bet they care more about balancing the state budget than their worries about stolen sailboats... in these deficits they are looking to squeeze any penny they can...

YES BIG PITA.. but i was shocked that there was no reg/title requirements to begin with

Is registration fraud a felony or a misdemeanor? I would bet its a felony?

Cut the bow tips so that length becomes slightly under 16. Cover the holes with tape for transport.

Upon arrival, make a new (higher flotation and wave piercing!) foam/epoxy sacrifice bow. Or just glue the old bows back in place.

This makes your transport legal and the cost/work is spent on an improvement instead of red tape.

The problem is that no one has titles for any of the boats in the southeast. My first SC20 was basically given to me, my second SC20 I bought for parts and my third SC20 was to replace the first after Hurricane Wilma destroyed it. None had titles.

If there was no law in place when the item was purchased, there is no crime. They are trying to implement a law after the fact and should grandfather in the old boats or give provisions to make it reasonable to get one.

I hate to say it, but sometimes you just have to lie. I have a "friend" who needed to title a boat after "they" moved to a state that required registration on a beachcat. After much anguish similar to what others in this thread have described, "they" gave in and decided to lie in order to pay the appropriate taxes and get the required registration. "They" had a willing friend fill out a new State Bill of Sale, which "they" took to the DMV - in 15 minutes, "they" cut a check and left with registration numbers. While it bothered "them" to lie, "they" came to the conclusion that it was the only route to compliance with the law.

Good luck.

It’s nothing but another tax in disguise. Any time I have ever had anything stolen the cops just shrugged there shoulders and told me that was what insurance was for. They always have a shell of a reason to justify getting in your pocket.

Not to step on anyone’s toes, but a lot of this type of crap is brought to Florida with the transplants…some of our northern friends are use to paying something for every little thing they do …they move down here, get involved in local politics and when there is need for more government funds they have a whole list from “back home” of ways to add to the coffers.

Did you hear the new law that locals have to have a fishing license now for salt water even if you are fishing from land? Unless you are public assistance, active military (the military deserve every break they get), or over 65. Middle class takes another hit. It never stops. It's just not the same Florida any more.

Have you seen where the forestay bridle fits on a Hobie 16 Luiz?

Their excuse for the fishing from land license is the federal gov. is going to charge a fee to fish that would be around 25.00 bucks in states that don't have licensing in place. I looked but I couldn't tell if I can fish from my own dock without being licensed. The state makes it sound like they are doing us a favor by charging us the 9. Thing is, who would enforce the federal law? The Coast Guard, Border Patrol, or HomeLand Security? No one. Remember when they tried to force us to buy a federal registration sticker. The cost of the sticker was based on the length of your boat. That didn't last long once people started complaining. When you consider what the taxes are on a house on the water here in Florida, it's insulting to think I need a 9 dollar license to fish off my dock. It's an Obamanation!

Well if any one asks, my 18 is now a 16, I can't see the Marine Patrol out there with tape measures.

ME!!!! Using kittens as bait is just wrong!!!

Good luck with that agrument. How do you prove when you bought it? By showing them your title???? (just kidding, i am sure most have some form of "bill of sale")
I doubt the judge will agree with your arguement of how this law should be followed.

Trust me, i am in the same boat.. i know the past 3 owners of my mystere... but i doubt they ever had a title... the first owner that i know of... lives in the philipines...

Ooooops! Forgot about that.

Make that "almost 16" and bring your own tape measure

A 16 still needs title/reg. You need to somehow convince them its a Hobie 15 and 9/10ths.

Is there any provision for people who build their own boats

Fred

Yes, if you live in Canada, and sail in Canada... you are not required to get a title in Florida

just kidding... as far as i know.. these laws do not have any remedy... if you are from out of state.. you must have documents to prove you are legal in that state..

"I will be vacationing in Florida this summer. Do I need to register my vessel there?

Florida recognizes valid registration certificates and numbers issued to visiting boaters for a period of 90 days. An owner who intends to use his vessel in Florida longer than 90 days must register it with a county tax collector. However, he may retain the out-of-state registration number if he plans to return to his home state within a reasonable period of time"

"All vessels, with the exception of non-motor-powered vessels less than 16 feet in length, non-motor-powered canoes, kayaks, racing shells, or rowing sculls, regardless of length, must be registered through your local Tax Collector's Office."

http://myfwc.com/RULESANDREGS/Rules_Boat.htm#registration

Please note: i am not an attorney, nor law enforcement in anyway... but i did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Is the willing co-conspirator...... err I'm sorry the friend of your friend (wink-wink) from out of state?

The F16 class should grow fast in Florida.

I have spent the summer rebuilding a H16 that I "aquired" for nothing from a tow yard that was happy to be rid of it. FHP found it abandoned on the side of the interstate several years ago and had the tow company remove it. (Hence the name Road Kill!) Anyway, no title, no previous registration, no known prior owners. To complicate matters my starboard hull was shot so I bought a pair (before the law took effect) on Craigs List. My boat therefore has two HIN's! Now I'm trying to be a good citizen and get it titled and registered.

I've already decided to forget the whole two HIN issue. That would really short circuit some poor clerk at DMV! A little sanding and a coat of paint, which I'm doing anyway, and I only have one HIN to worry about. A representative from the tax collectors office has assured me that they would accept a "letter of origin" from the tow company stating how they came to have it and would issue me a title since the boat has never had one. I'll let you guys know how it goes...

Thank God I live in Utah. No title requires for boats 1985 or older and no trailer registration required for small boat trailers. Since mine came with neither then it made life easier.

Unless some guy plays smart and realises they are over 16ft!

Cheshirecatman

I've been trying for a week now to call the "for questions about this issue" phone number, that was listed on the paperwork I received. All I get is a busy signal!

Maybe that is a good sign. I hope.

NH doesn't issue titles for anything. I do have to register the boat and trailer each year (revenue enhancement) but the idea that it will slow down or stop thefts is laughable. Have you any idea how many REGISTERED snowmobiles get stolen each year here and either parted out or brought to Canada? The NH Association says hundreds from this state alone. All the border states see it regularly. Trips by friends to Canada with trailers of snowmobiles have lost the entire trailer AND the snowmobiles. Its so bad we don't do our regular trip to Canada any longer. Not worth the risk/hassle. And all of those are registered!

Perhaps we should petition the Governing Council to change the Class name to F15.

Over the years I have come up with a few simple rules for registering boats that were never intended to be registered.

First, these groups are paramilitry, meaning you have to do the paperwork their way or redo it their way. There are no other choices.

Second call up the correct office in your state. Lay out the whole story and ask them what you need to do. WRITE DOWN THE NAME OF THE PERSON WHO TOLD WHAT TO DO.

THIRD, Do whatever they told you to do, even if you think it is silly or worthless. DO NOT SUBSTITUTE. For example, Texas wants a tracing of the hull numbers. On a Marstrom, the hull number is written on a piece of paper, laminated to the inside of the hull with epoxy. A tracing shows nothing. If you bring a picture instead of a tracing, they will make you bring the boat to them so they can make a tracing(see #1)You can have a picture or a drawing in addition.

Four, make up a folder with what they want. Go to the office or branch that you called and try to get the person you talked to. If you can't get the person you talked to tell whoever you are talking to, so and so told me to do this.

Five Give them the stuff they wanted. Hold the extra stuff back. Don't give it to them unless they want it. Don't tell them anyhing they don't want. Be friendly and nice but don't run your mouth. (You don't know all the rules, you may have broken one).

Good Luck you will need it.

Re Marstrom's

I believe that Fun in the Sun (Jill) or Coconut Grove (Carla) were supposed to engrave your Marstrom with a street legal hull number that added to the Marstrom ID number and issue legal paperwork. (Something about their role as importers of the boats).

Carl, great advice!

I think the cure is to call them all home built. Name it yourself. Maybe you could call it a Hobie 16. Engrave your own set of numbers and be done with it.

MORE good advice.

Something similar can be done in Brazil.

There are fishermen and native americans who build traditional boats large enough to require registration. Specific rules for such handcraft boats allow anyone to register a self made vessel, provided that a registered naval engineer fills the papers certifying stability, seaworthiness, tonnage, crew number and the like. The engine's invoice is the only other requirement, when there is an engine, naturally.

Simple and fair requirements like this tend to work well: local engineers are familiar with traditional designs in their area and charge nominal fees for taking a look at the boat and signing the papers.

Boats are registered in the same naval department where stolen boats are reported, where captain licenses are issued and the like, so the system is reasonably safe against frauds.

If I ever bought a boat through normal channels, that would be the case. My Marstroms came striaght from Goran.

Come to think of it, I have only purchased one catamaran through normal channels and it was really easy, I might to try that again.

Isnt there a law stating that if you found a boat at sea adrift you are allowed to keep it?

No

what does "salvage rights" mean? I have no idea. Do you have to be a licensed salvager to obtain these rights?

Without getting into marine law, basically a salvor may retrieve abandon material and hold it. The salvor must then allow the rightful owner a chance to pay reasonable salvage fees to regain the property. Often the fees are greater than the value and then the salvor may sell or use what he has retrieved.


If you find a Hobie adrift and save it, you are entitled to the expense involved in the salvage and a reasonable profit. That could be more than the value of the boat. You would still need a court order to obtain clear title.