Catsailor.com

Fl tag and title... watch out ,....

Posted By: Anonymous

Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/28/09 02:12 PM

I was racing on sat at the Dunedin marina... rumor has it marine patrol is going to do a sweep at the Dunedin causeway and ticket unregistered boats... this is all hearsay.. but ...
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/28/09 02:14 PM

I heard they were just targeting one boat. But that's just a rumor.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/28/09 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
I heard they were just targeting one boat. But that's just a rumor.
And who is the lucky "one boat" ... i hope not me... smile
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/28/09 02:27 PM

Rumors, they are never rich with details.

Wildcat is jonny law free. Could be a good excuses to test the waters elsewhere.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 01:25 PM

and it just gets worse, after reaching the previous ower of my cat.. he passed on this story about a different boat he sold to someone.. The new owner tried to sell it recently...

"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them. After a few dozen phone calls I learned that to get a HIN you must get inspected by a Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission (FWC) agent. The guy who came to look at the Dart down at Gulfport was stereotypical law enforcement guy - flak jacket with sidearm. He interrogated the seller with intense detail, finally revealing that they were working from the angle that this boat is a stolen boat. He was not hearing that Darts NEVER have HINs nor the historical fact that few cats carry titles. The seller was told that this CRIMINAL investigation would be sent to Tallahassee in 4-6 weeks and perhaps they would offer a HIN but more likely they would pursue old records to identify all owners and the original importer, since the boat came from England long ago. The FWC guy said it could take 4-6 months to work out. The seller is despondent about losing his out-of-state buyer and considers his boat a total loss. The FWC guy also informed DMV and said that action flagged The seller and this boat from any further ownership transfer"
Posted By: walkefmb

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 03:50 PM

I think I'm going to do a homebuild thing present receipts for the new gear etc, west marine receipts for epoxy and such misc. junk and just present it as a new build My tornado has no id other than sail numbers so that should avoid most of these horror stories. I have a Coast Guard station at the foot of the bridge to the island here and the new Homeland Security Nor-tec vessels have been out practicing on us. We've been stopped twice on the same day twice now. Yes, different crews, no, not on the cat but a whaler heavily armed with 9 to 6 year olds and all of their attendant fish slaying gear.
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott


"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them.



Open the inspection ports and look for the numbers written on the inside of the hulls in marker pen!!! These should be traceable.

If you still have problems you could try here: http://www.dart18.com/contacts.htm

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by walkefmb
I think I'm going to do a homebuild thing present receipts for the new gear etc, west marine receipts for epoxy and such misc. junk and just present it as a new build My tornado has no id other than sail numbers so that should avoid most of these horror stories.


i think if you get caught, the repercussions may be severe... i am sure this is gonna be a PITA, but i have to be legal.

i was told by one person, they can seize your boat if you can't prove ownership... and i was just told a story about a local sailor trying to fake numbers and ... it didnt end well for him...

Quote
We've been stopped twice on the same day twice now. Yes, different crews, no, not on the cat but a whaler heavily armed with 9 to 6 year olds and all of their attendant fish slaying gear.


sorry to hear, but happy you haven't been on a cat.
I think the key words above are ... "not on the cat"
Posted By: Quarath

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 06:39 PM

if 1985 or older sellers should list they're boat in Utah where 1985 and older don't need a title. Not sure on HIN as mine had them so I used em. You may have to concede some loss on helping get it to the buyer but better than writing it off.
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 07:29 PM

The real solution to this is to work through a sailor in the legislature. The Fish and Wildlife people are just cogs in the machine. The law needs to be changed. There has to be someone in the state legislature that would understand this and be willing to gain some friends for correcting a law that really makes no sense. If they really need these boats registered then they need to understand that most of the older boats in this class of boats never had a title.

How many stolen boats are out there anyway?
Posted By: walkefmb

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 08:32 PM

This really puts a sand spur in my shorts! Since my irresponsible days are loooonnnng past I 've made every effort to comply fully with ALL of the applicable laws on land and sea. Now I feel as if I have no good options because my boat really has no identifying numbers whatsoever and has never had any papers issued. Reading the bs at myflorida.gov makes it look like my only option is to claim "home build'. One of our local sheriff deputies repeatedly has scared the cr#p out of me when he comes to admire the boat on his occasional rides down our street. He only recently heard about this because he wants an electric motor for a flats skiff he's had for a long time and he too has no HID. He's buying a nice carbon push pole instead to fix his problem. Lee county still claims a title is necessary but yearly registration is not. So the upshot of the whole thing is still stupid. The nice lady at an unnamed local tax office said to 'not bother with it, we haven't done anything like that yet.' This answer really shocked me since in my studies of the county, fwc, and the state guidelines i found out that lee county has the most registered type 1 or whatever 16-26 foot vessels are in the state. I also found out that antique motorcycles are more expensive to register that antique cars. Just baffling.

Since this tornado has no hull id number and has clearly been used for years, I can't see any other way to go
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
The real solution to this is to work through a sailor in the legislature. The Fish and Wildlife people are just cogs in the machine. The law needs to be changed. There has to be someone in the state legislature that would understand this and be willing to gain some friends for correcting a law that really makes no sense. If they really need these boats registered then they need to understand that most of the older boats in this class of boats never had a title.

How many stolen boats are out there anyway?


This is really the only answer. Perhaps we get the e-mail addresses for all the rep's and start bombarding them with our stories. Then call the local news teams to do stories on it. That's the only way your going to get someone to notice. This is the kind of thing we need to communicate to the law makers.

This is really about getting tax dollars on the sale of a boat. They won't give you a title unless the previous owner will sign a notarized bill of sale. Now how do you do that if you bought it 12 years ago and titles were not necessary. A lot of people buy these things with a hand shake. I was told someone who frequents this site sold the above dart and won't sign the bill of sail so this dart owner could sell this boat without much hassle. If that's true, I wish he would explain to us why.


Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cheshirecatman
Originally Posted by andrewscott


"Darts have no Hull Identification Number (HIN), none of them.



Open the inspection ports and look for the numbers written on the inside of the hulls in marker pen!!! These should be traceable.



The Dart 18 in question DOES have numbers hand written on the inside of the hull and the officer was shown these numbers and they matched what was on the Bill of Sale. However, Dart only hand writes a 4 digit number. Since 1972 all boats registered in the US have to have a long specific sequence of numbers etched onto the outside. The 4 digit scribble didn't appease him.

Dart folks from NE U.S., do any of you have hull numbers? How did they ever get Darts into the USA? Smuggled in across the Canadian border? Filled with illegal Canadians?


Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 10:48 PM

Homebuilt idea? The officer investigating the Dart made a very pointed comment that the boat was clearly professionally built and not homebuilt. He was very aware that claiming homebuilt was one way to get a fresh HIN and was not going to allow that. It was never suggested that the Dart was homebuilt.

Etch your own? I was told by Fish and Wildlife that etching your own was a felony and would definitely be prosecuted.
Posted By: ncik

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 11:03 PM

Get in contact with US Sailing, this should be their responsibility to sort out, they are your advocates. It'll be easier for them as a group to put pressure on the powers that be.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/29/09 11:20 PM

The US Dart Importer was a fellow by the name of Brian Kology, Sailsports ltd. I believe his business was in New Hampshire but he has not been involved with Darts for at least 15 years. If he sold a boat out of state (eg me) he just needed a release for his own business tax waiver. It was up to my state to collect it's sales tax. Since there was no reason to title the boat with the state... Never a problem.

Brian might have names of the original owner but that won't help much since no one will want to take ownership temporarily or verify that the boat has never been stolen in it's lifetime. It's a catch 22!

The last class pres sails out of Tampa, ... perhaps he has some thoughts.

Marstrom Tornado's have the same problem, Jill Nickerson Daniel of Fun in the Sun can tell you how Marstrom dealt with this one.


Posted By: mbounds

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by ncik
Get in contact with US Sailing, this should be their responsibility to sort out, they are your advocates. It'll be easier for them as a group to put pressure on the powers that be.


Uh, no. This is a state-by-state problem, not a United States issue. US Sailing doesn't have the resources to be boat registration ombudsmen in 50 different states.
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 12:48 PM

I was talking to a friend about this and I haven't checked into it but I believe it's possible to Document our boats. You are required to display the name and hailing port of the vessel and a federal tax sticker but no state numbers. It removes the state from having jurisdiction over the vessel. Anyone know more about this?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 01:14 PM

Interesting question. I know we have documented cruising boats, but I don't know about small boats.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 01:47 PM

He does raise an interesting point. My cruiser (33' monohull) isn't registered in SC, but instead is registered with the US Coast Guard.
A boat broker should be able to confirm if this is a possibility for a small cat.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 01:51 PM

WHAT VESSELS MAY BE DOCUMENTED?
A vessel must measure at least five net tons and, with the exception of certain oil spill response vessels, must be wholly owned by a citizen of the U.S.


HOW DO I KNOW IF MY VESSEL MEASURES FIVE NET TONS?
Net tonnage is a measure of a vessel's volume. It should not be confused with the vessel's weight, which may also be expressed in tons. Most vessels more than 25 feet in length will measure five net tons or more. For information about how tonnage is determined, including a web-based interactive form that calculates tonnages, visit the U.S. Coast Guard Marine Safety Center's web site.


Posted By: stevefisherkeller

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 02:20 PM

Lets see Dart 20, owned for 8 years, original owner dead, bought for cash and a handshake. Might be hard to register.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 04:03 PM

Didn't he require you a full "adoption screening" with paperwork for your boat? perhaps the dmv will accept those papers as transfer of parental rights ???
Posted By: Headhunter

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by stevefisherkeller
Lets see Dart 20, owned for 8 years, original owner dead, bought for cash and a handshake. Might be hard to register.


Steve, I can come over and scratch some numbers on the transom for ya!
Posted By: c6pipes

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 04:19 PM

That's very intresting on the FL registration. I bought a Tornado from Florida and there was no Florida registration or title on the boat at the time. According to the state of Florida and the seller, sail only powered vessels are not required to be title or registered. Texas on the other hand requires all boats over 14 feet to be registered. We had to have all kinds of letters from the state of Florida to bring the boat to Texas and register it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by c6pipes
That's very intresting on the FL registration. I bought a Tornado from Florida and there was no Florida registration or title on the boat at the time. According to the state of Florida and the seller, sail only powered vessels are not required to be title or registered. Texas on the other hand requires all boats over 14 feet to be registered. We had to have all kinds of letters from the state of Florida to bring the boat to Texas and register it.


It seems the laws changed in FL last month but to be honest the law has been (for at least the past 10 years) 16 and under dont require registration, only title... but few if any ever did a title. 20 and up always needed both... but never enforced (at least where i sail)
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 04:33 PM

When I had my boat shop in Key West (thru 1984) every boat we sold came with an MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin). We sold Sunfish (AMF), Lasers, Hobies, J-Boats, Catalinas and Sailcraft Tornados.

If the boat was not to be financed, we just signed the MSO over to the owner. If the boat was to have a motor or to be financed, then the MSO was turned in to the DMV in return for a title.

So...all boats started out with an MSO. We always told the buyers to hang onto it because if they ever wanted to sell their boat outside of Florida, they might need it.

Now, most of those boats have gone through several owners and the MSOs are probably lost.

I wonder if the manufacturers might be willing to issue replacement MSOs if given the serial numbers?

As a sidebar to this, I had a bunch of blank MSOs printed up which we used for trade-in boats that didn't have any paperwork. DMV always accepted a properly filled out MSO with no questions. I think I still have some of those in a file somewhere. Just an idea..... wink
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 05:57 PM

That explains why a buddy has a title. He financed his.
Posted By: Jeff_Bowers

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 06:06 PM

This is from the Pinellas County tax office
site:http://www.taxcollect.com/Content.aspx?ContentID=63

It looks like we have to title but not register. How are they going to check that when you are out sailing? I don't plan on taking the title with me on the boat.

Exemptions from Titling in Florida

Vessels owned by the United States Government
Non motor-powered vessels less than 16 feet in length
Federally documented vessels
Vessels used exclusively on private lakes and ponds
Vessels already covered by a number(pursuant to the federally approved numbering system) of another state, provided that such vessel shall not be located in the State for a period of 90 consecutive days
Amphibious vessels for which title is issued by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles
Vessels used solely for demonstration, testing or sales by a registered dealer or manufacturer
Vessels owned and operated by the state or a governmental subdivision.



Exemptions from Registering in Florida

Non-motor-powered vessels
Vessels used exclusively on private lakes and ponds
Vessels owned by the United States Government
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 09/30/09 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bowers
This is from the Pinellas County tax office
site:http://www.taxcollect.com/Content.aspx?ContentID=63

It looks like we have to title but not register. How are they going to check that when you are out sailing? I don't plan on taking the title with me on the boat.


Are you sure this data from the website isnot outdated? it sure seems everybody else who has first hand experience agrees the law changed last month...

This is from the "Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor ..."

http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html#7

"Is a non-powered vessel required to be registered and titled?

If the non-motor powered vessel is less than 16 feet in length, it is not required to be registered or titled. However, if the vessel is 16 feet or more in length, it is required to be registered and titled."
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 01:35 AM

There are so many confused opinions here the ONLY way to clear the air is to read the law. Yes, Jeff, the DMV does have the wrong book. So did the FWC when I called them. The lady at FWC and I found the pertinent section is the Florida Statutes, chapter 328. Here is the link.

Florida Statute 328 VESSELS: TITLE CERTIFICATES; LIENS; REGISTRATION

It's easy to use the table of contents to find the NEWEST laws. Don't go by the people with printed guidebooks. Many of these laws will update again tomorrow, Oct.1, 2009. Stay current...ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Jon (Headhunter), etching your own falsified number is a third degree felony, clearly addressed in 328 and pointed out by the FWC people. They are serious folks, those FWC, and they carry guns.

Steve Fisherkeller, you are in a world of hurt with your Dart. With both Smitty and Rocco gone all records of your number-less Dart are gone and the FWC definitely WILL treat it as a stolen boat. This is clearly spelled out in 328 as well. Rich, who bought my old Dart, is working on it and I expect the FWC detective to interrogate me this week as a seller of this "stolen" boat. They consider ANY boat without a number to have had the number obliterated and it's probably a stolen boat. I'd get a written statement from the UK manufacturer swearing that there never were etched hull ID numbers and stating how many Darts were shipped here. They can't put you ALL in jail. Can they?

As for Jack's comment on the MSO document, he's spot on, again detailed in 328. I called Performance to try to get a copy of the MSO for my 1998 Nacre 5.0 and was told it was given to the original dealer who received the boat, the Sailing Shop in Orlando. A visit to Sunbiz.org showed that Saling Shop dissolved it's corporation in 2002. I'll call Performance and grovel a bit tomorrow and beg for a copy of the MSO.

When Sailing Shop sold my boat the buyer got the MSO and "should" have used it to get a title from the DMV. Florida DMV says they will search the Hull Identification Number and see if a title was ever generated in trade for the original buyer's MSO. If they find a title in the record they will contact that person and advise them to pay for a duplicate title and then sign the boat over to the current owner. If there was never a titled then the current "owner" (me) must get a court order. I will figure out how to do that in the morning. I have a lawyer friend in the courthouse.

I spent hours on the phone today talking to the DMV, FWC (Tampa), FWC (Tallahassee), and FL Boating and Waterways (branch of FWC law enforcement). Each person I spoke to had an opinion but are not all in agreement. I explained that I was representative of hundreds and perhaps thousands of unregistered and/or untitled sailboat owners. They really have to prepare a solution that works for most of those honest people so the problems don't have to be solved on a case by case basis involving a criminal investigation (or criminal falsification of records by frustrated sailors.)

What a mess.
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by ncik
Get in contact with US Sailing, this should be their responsibility to sort out, they are your advocates. It'll be easier for them as a group to put pressure on the powers that be.


That's pretty funny.
Posted By: Jeff_Bowers

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 02:19 PM

Dave,
This presents a real problem for me. I have all the original purchase documents but 3 years after I had the boat Mystere replaced the Starboard Hull. Guess where the Boat registration numbers are? I notified my insurance at the time but never updated an other documents or have anything offical from mystere.
This is bound to turn into a mess.
Hope I don't run into problems next weekend.
jeff
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
I will figure out how to do that in the morning. I have a lawyer friend in the courthouse.


When you talk to your lawyer friend, ask if there are any Fla laws that would convince people to move quickly on solving this problem.

When Texas required title and registration they setup a uniform procedure (include a notarized statement that this boat is yours and why it was never titled). They did not do this to be nice but because they wanted the money and they were worried about actions against them. My memory is fuzzy but some of the concerns were: No uniform enforcement. Someone getting jailed or even hurt because of misapplications of a different law (conducting a criminal investigations because you want to comply with the new boat law). Change of status of property. I don't understand this but the example was "I got an aluminum canoe with my house".

Keep pushing and remember at least in Tx they did not care about existing boats. They wanted the sales tax on new boats and they just needed a way to get the old boats into the system, without spending too much money.

Write down how much money the state collects on each old boat, how many hours state employees spend, and multiply by an estimate of the number of unregistered boats. Write up a nice letter. Send a copy to the author of the bill, all the State Rep's in your area and couple of TV stations and newspapers. For $50 you can send out a lot of letters, I know don't ask me how.

Can you file class action in Fla?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 02:37 PM

Quote
Rich, who bought my old Dart, is working on it and I expect the FWC detective to interrogate me this week as a seller of this "stolen" boat. They consider ANY boat without a number to have had the number obliterated and it's probably a stolen boat.


Awesome! Hows that "innocent until proven guilty" thing working out?

Maybe I DON'T want to move to FL.
Posted By: Jennifer

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 03:12 PM

I don't plan to register my Capricorn or A-Cat because I only use them for racing. Per Chapter 328, 328.56 Vessel registration number, (9) an undocumented vessel used exclusively for racing is not required to display a Florida registration number.

Jennifer Lindsay
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 03:34 PM

Quote
Practice.... were talking Practice!!!


The AI school of training

How do you signal that you are racing?
Posted By: Jennifer

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 03:49 PM

Has anyone in Florida actually been issued a ticket or warning for not having their sailboat titled and registered? If not, don't worry about because if you continue, you are just openning a can of worms.

Jennifer
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 03:55 PM

This came up as a result of 2 sailors (one ocalacat on this site) being unable to title thier boat. the other is unable to sell his boat due to no title (to someone from georga).

I know of no one recieving a ticket... but the thought of my cat being siezed until i can proove i own it is enough for me to want to find the remedy....
Posted By: Clayton

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 04:20 PM

I've purchased a boat from Fl before (when they were not required to title boat or trailer. I went to the DMV with the bill of sale and explained that the trailer was not required to be titled in FL. They titled the trailer for LA, took my money and I was on my way (well maybe I had to make two trips...) If he is selling the boat to someone in GA, its interesting why the state of FL is involved at all. They don't even know the boat exists. So sell me the boat, I'll register it here (for a small fee ;-) and then I'll sell it to whom ever you want to.

There that takes care of it! Hmmm, do I need a brokers license now??????

Clayton
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 04:55 PM

Florida didn't know about it.. but GA wouldn't accept nor title it without a out of state title... but it has none..

PS 328.03 Certificate of title required.--
3) A person shall not sell, assign, or transfer a vessel titled by the state without delivering to the purchaser or transferee a valid certificate of title with an assignment on it showing the transfer of title to the purchaser or transferee. A person shall not purchase or otherwise acquire a vessel required to be titled by the state without obtaining a certificate of title for the vessel in his or her name.
Posted By: Clayton

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/01/09 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
Florida didn't know about it.. but GA wouldn't accept nor title it without a out of state title... but it has none..


So unless ALL of the states get their act together someone will get scr$wed. Don't you love politics? Oh, wait, wrong thread!

C
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/02/09 03:09 PM

David,

Thanks for your hard work and investigation into this. I am working on collecting what documentation I can on the history of my H16 to take to the title office.

I am not yet associated with any organized multihull group but I'm sure some of you are. Are those organizations able to do anything to help? HAs anyone contacted or heard from their legislators?

Antony Dalton
Posted By: popeyez7

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/02/09 07:54 PM

I don't think I'll take that road trip outta state... I hate hassles....
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 05:13 PM

Talked to Jill today. She called Tallahassee and found there is no need to register cats. As was said before some boats were given MSO's, boats that were financed received titles. The problem is with trying to get a title for a boat that hasn't had one. You will need to prove ownership and get a court order to obtain a title.
Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Talked to Jill today. She called Tallahassee and found there is no need to register cats.


Any size cat (non-motorized of course)?

Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 05:57 PM

I'm going to be a bit leary of that until it's in writing somewhere.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jennifer
I don't plan to register my Capricorn or A-Cat because I only use them for racing. Per Chapter 328, 328.56 Vessel registration number, (9) an undocumented vessel used exclusively for racing is not required to display a Florida registration number.

Jennifer Lindsay


Thanks Jenn. That will be two of us.
"(9) An undocumented vessel used exclusively for racing", the word "undocumented" is a little worrisome. But, I'll take my chances.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Talked to Jill today. She called Tallahassee and found there is no need to register cats.

I spoke with her too... she sent me a copy of the email that said NO REG needed... This is for boats under 16'.

We still need a reg and title... unless your under 16' and all cats need title

I am not trying to drag this out... but...

Parkers Link
(2) Each vessel operated, used, or stored on the waters of this state must be registered as a commercial vessel or recreational vessel as defined in s. 327.02, unless it is:

(a) A vessel operated, used, and stored exclusively on private lakes and ponds;

(b) A vessel owned by the United States Government;

(c) A vessel used exclusively as a ship's lifeboat; or

(d) A non-motor-powered vessel less than 16 feet in length or a non-motor-powered canoe, kayak, racing shell, or rowing scull, regardless of length.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 08:47 PM

Who's Jill?
Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 08:49 PM

Quote

(b) A vessel owned by the United States Government;



I don't actually "own" my boat ... I lease it from the US Gov't in the form of taxes paid grin

Robi, can you make up some decals that say " Property of the U.S. Government" ?
Posted By: Robi

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 09:01 PM

I work for the US Coast Guard. My paycheck is issued by the Department of Homeland Security, so in essence my boat is owned by the US Government.

lawls on the decal request Terry.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by AV8RSailor
Who's Jill?

Manager of the RED GEAR RACING (Robbie Danniels Wife).

They sell cats and she emailed someone in the tax collectors office...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 09:23 PM

Here is the email:
From: "TaxCollector Internet E-Mail" <taxcollector@taxcollect.com>
> To: "Jill A Nickerson" <funinthesun@XXX.com>
> Cc: "Stephanie Lillico" <slillico@taxcollect.com>
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:55:59 -0400
> Subject: RE: BOAT TITLES
> Message-ID:
> <9FE5962253D06E4E915F8C59F00DE99C0203453D@tcex.taxcollector.com>
>
> Thank you for your recent e-mail. Non motor powered vessels less than
> 16 feet in length are not required to be titled or registered.
> Sailboats 16 feet or more in length are titled but only registered if
> motor powered. Age of the vessel has no bearing on title requirements
> or exemptions.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have further questions via
> e-mail or by calling our customer service center (727) 464-7777.
>
> Thank You,
> Lisa Carpenter, Lead Tax Specialist
> Diane Nelson, Tax Collector
> e-Service Center
> 727.453.3775 office
> 727.453.3778 fax
> "Committed to Citizen-Centered Government"
>
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 09:25 PM

Robi, any info on laws/rules changes? there seems to be a bit of a difference in the data the tax collector provided Jill and what everyone else is saying (the state website).

Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/05/09 10:43 PM

Quote
Talked to Jill today. She called Tallahassee and found there is no need to register cats.


We're going to need a bit more than just Jill's word. I called Tallahassee, too. I was referred to the NEW laws which are found in Florida Statute 328.

FL Statute 328

The new language is in section 328.48(2d) on registration which now includes the 16 foot rule reads

2) Each vessel operated, used, or stored on the waters of this state must be registered as a commercial vessel or recreational vessel as defined in s. 327.02, unless it is:

(a) A vessel operated, used, and stored exclusively on private lakes and ponds;

(b) A vessel owned by the United States Government;

(c) A vessel used exclusively as a ship's lifeboat; or

(d) A non-motor-powered vessel less than 16 feet in length or a non-motor-powered canoe, kayak, racing shell, or rowing scull, regardless of length.


If you can find something here that exempts catamarans, please point it out. The officer will want to know....

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission is the law enforcement branch controls these regulations and the sticky rules concerning hull numbers, titling, and registration.

Try calling Captain Roger Young in the Tampa office of FWC at 813-376-6418. I hope I don't make him mad for publishing his number but if a bunch of us call, perhaps he can get things done.


Try this link to the FWC on boating regulations

Hit "Org Structure" on the left and then find your local rep in the right hand column. Call and whine.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by andrewscott
Robi, any info on laws/rules changes? there seems to be a bit of a difference in the data the tax collector provided Jill and what everyone else is saying (the state website).

Sorry duder, nav rules and regulations, laws etc is not the department I work for.

If its electronic and flies I can tell you a we-bit.
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 12:11 PM

Well I think he needs to talk to Lisa Carpenter to get it straight.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 01:14 PM

I just measured my (unregistered and untitled) Blade, turns out it's only 15'11". Honest Officer!

But I think I need a new DPN.

;^)
Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I just measured my (unregistered and untitled) Blade, turns out it's only 15'11". Honest Officer!

But I think I need a new DPN.

;^)


Yep....I measured mine last night ... 15'11" (of course without the spin pole--which I, of course, RARELY use officer).

I've changed my hull stickers to reflect this measurement oversight by the manufacturer:

Blade F15 grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by tback
I've changed my hull stickers to reflect this measurement oversight by the manufacturer: Blade F15 grin


Should read Blade F15 & 11/12ths
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I just measured my (unregistered and untitled) Blade, turns out it's only 15'11". Honest Officer!

But I think I need a new DPN.

;^)


Agreed, let's drop it a half point.
Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Timbo
I just measured my (unregistered and untitled) Blade, turns out it's only 15'11". Honest Officer!

But I think I need a new DPN.

;^)


Agreed, let's drop it a half point.


I dunno Dave, smaller boat with same crew weight would indicate a HIGHER DPN is required.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Timbo
I just measured my (unregistered and untitled) Blade, turns out it's only 15'11". Honest Officer!

But I think I need a new DPN.

;^)


Agreed, let's drop it a half point.


I dunno Dave, smaller boat with same crew weight would indicate a HIGHER DPN is required.


How does crew weight factor in when there is no min crew weight? Now if the F15 class rules have a min crew weight then you might have a point. A 15 foot must be lighter than a 16 foot boat, right? Half point sounds fair.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 05:25 PM

The point of rules is to generate as large and fair a playing field as possible.

IMO... crew weight adjustments should not be applied to single handed boats. Most of them can have sails built to their weight.

Its better to set a minimum and maximum wind speed for single handed class racing and do away with crew weight mins for single handers.

If you have a crew min of 140 lbs 110% of weight would put you at 154 lbs for a ratings break... Silly!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 05:32 PM

I was just goofing around with Terry. I have no desire to get into a serious discussion about hapdicap racing, it always turns into a giant cluster F!@# and I still see very little value in it.
Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
I was just goofing around with Terry. I have no desire to get into a serious discussion about hapdicap racing, it always turns into a giant cluster F!@# and I still see very little value in it.


Sorry Ding, didn't mean to get you embroiled in an F16 - F15 brew-ha-ha...

... but now that I think of it ... you do seem to find yourself in the middle fairly often. You should get an F15 and be taken seriously! wink
Posted By: pgp

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by David Ingram
I was just goofing around with Terry. I have no desire to get into a serious discussion about hapdicap racing, it always turns into a giant cluster F!@# and I still see very little value in it.


Sorry Ding, didn't mean to get you embroiled in an F16 - F15 brew-ha-ha...

... but now that I think of it ... you do seem to find yourself in the middle fairly often. You should get an F15 and be taken seriously! wink


7. Viper F-16 D So David Ingram
Kathy Ingram Clermont, Fl USA SCCA


http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubm...?regatta_id=2350&custom_report_id=37
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 07:42 PM

Quote
Here is the email:
From: "TaxCollector Internet E-Mail" <taxcollector@taxcollect.com>
> To: "Jill A Nickerson" <funinthesun@XXX.com>
> Cc: "Stephanie Lillico" <slillico@taxcollect.com>
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:55:59 -0400
> Subject: RE: BOAT TITLES
> Message-ID:
>
> Thank you for your recent e-mail. Non motor powered vessels less than
> 16 feet in length are not required to be titled or registered.
> Sailboats 16 feet or more in length are titled but only registered if
> motor powered. Age of the vessel has no bearing on title requirements
> or exemptions.

Originally Posted by catman
Well I think he needs to talk to Lisa Carpenter to get it straight.


I called and left a message for Lisa Carpenter (Clearwater, not Tallahasee). Her boss, Stephanie Lillico, called me back and quoted the same thing. When I suggested that the law seemed to have changed she read the current statute, saw that her DMV book was outdated, and said she will ask Tallahasee for an updated policy based on the current statute and will call me back.

I don't mean to bring Johnny Law down on our heads. The Sheriff and FWC officers seem to know of the new requirement and have threatened to write tickets. Given that our boats are sitting ducks on the beach, maybe we ought to be ready to register rather than get several tickets. We could all just say we are John Doe and get a ticket in that name. Charmin.

The really difficult issue remains unresolved. To get registered you have to have a title. Getting a title on an older (not new) boat is MUCH harder to do. The court order route seems to be the only way and that process is REALLY ugly.

Here's a link to instructions for getting a title via court order.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
The really difficult issue remains unresolved. To get registered you have to have a title. Getting a title on an older (not new) boat is MUCH harder to do. The court order route seems to be the only way and that process is REALLY ugly.

Here's a link to instructions for getting a title via court order.


well that was a fun read.... i still have no clue what to do.

Dave, you sold me a stolen, unregiterable, untitleable boat. the least you could have done was give me a piece of your wife's b-day cake when i saw you at the Japanese restaurant the other night....
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 08:03 PM

Here's a change in the law that REALLY sucks. Once they force us to register with the state and they know where you live, the local county "may impose" an an ADDITIONAL fee. Hopefully nobody at the courthouse is reading the new laws.

FL Statute 328.66

"328.66 County and municipality optional registration fee.--

(1) Any county may impose an annual registration fee on vessels registered, operated, used, or stored on the waters of this state within its jurisdiction. This fee shall be 50 percent of the applicable state registration fee."

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 08:08 PM

and whats the reg fee (state)? at this point.. i dont care if i have to pay, i just want to be legal and not worry about driving home and getting pulled over for not having numbes on my boat, or worse ...


Robi, can you make me some Hobie15 &11/12ths stickers for my 18.5' boat? (kidding)
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 08:38 PM

Quote
Robi, can you make me some Hobie15 &11/12ths stickers for my 18.5' boat? (kidding)


Actually, that would be pretty funny. If they weren't too expensive they might buy us some time. "Hobie 15" Who would know the difference?

I can see that the Sheriff deputies will soon need a new hanger on their utility belts to hold a Glok tape measure. I guess a fixed tape of 16 feet would be enough.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 09:08 PM

Andrew,
Per 328.72:
Class 1--16 feet or more and less than 26 feet in length: $28.75 for each 12-month period registered.

By the time this is done we'll know the statutes better than the legislators!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by AV8RSailor
Andrew,
Per 328.72:
Class 1--16 feet or more and less than 26 feet in length: $28.75 for each 12-month period registered.

Great, thanks... i am soooo willing to pay that... but i know i am in for a huge fight to get a title

Originally Posted by AV8RSailor

By the time this is done we'll know the statutes better than the legislators!

no doubt.. i usually love arm chair lawyering.. but not this time... this is more important than just about everything else in my life to me...
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/06/09 10:54 PM

Quote
i am soooo willing to pay that... but i know i am in for a huge fight to get a title

this is more important than just about everything else in my life to me...


I believe this is simpler than you folks are making it, although it certainly is a PITA.


<<<Section 319.23(3)(a)(2)(c), Florida Statutes, reads: “If the vehicle is an ancient or antique vehicle as defined in s. 320.086, F.S., the application shall be accompanied by a certificate of title; a bill of sale and a registration; or a bill of sale and an affidavit by the owner defending the title from all claims. The bill of sale must contain a complete vehicle description to include the vehicle identification or engine number, year make, color, selling price, and signatures of the seller and purchaser.” >>>


Having spent a lot of time in the DMV line, often with "unusual" paperwork issues, I learned that you never go without having an answer for every question.

All they really want is for you to have some sort of paper trail as to where you got the boat and how much you paid. Obviously, an MSO or title solves that issue along with a bill of sale stating the price and describing the property.

In lieu of these, an affidavit (as stated in the staute) is probably sufficient. In Florida, this should be notarized.

Since you know where you got your boat, the logical first step is to go back to the seller for a statement. He should also know where he got the boat, and so forth.

This is called a verifiable chain of ownership. It should state each owner in succession, back to the selling dealer, along with their last known address and phone number.

Hopefully there weren't too many owners.

If the selling dealer is still in business, he MAY be willing to make a statement for your affidavit.

You can also work the ownership chain from the dealer end if you can get the manufacturer to tell you where the boat was first delivered.

Once you have the chain reconstructed, sign it in front of a notary and that is your affidavit.

The more detail you can provide, the better.

You will have to pay the sales tax in any case, and the title fee.






Posted By: KentHobie

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 01:35 AM

I just want to say thank you, Jack, for having the title and sending it to me!
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 02:20 AM

Quote

I believe this is simpler than you folks are making it, although it certainly is a PITA.


<<<Section 319.23(3)(a)(2)(c), Florida Statutes, reads: “If the vehicle is an ancient or antique vehicle as defined in s. 320.086, F.S.,



Nice try, Jack. However, your citings are from Title XXIII about motor vehicles and do not apply to vessels (Title XXIV). I could find nothing in XXIV about antique vessels.

Since Andrew's boat is a '95 or maybe '98 it would be hard to call it antique, anyway.
Personally, I'm a '53 and don't think of myself as antique (but my kids do).
Posted By: dacarls

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 04:21 AM

OK- Brain trust and Hobie 15.99 foot owners..... Now what do the 18 foot boat racers do? Continue with Jennifer's idea?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 11:47 AM

Change the measurement system so an 18 would instead be called a 15 36/12ths...
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
Nice try, Jack. However, your citings are from Title XXIII about motor vehicles and do not apply to vessels (Title XXIV). I could find nothing in XXIV about antique vessels.


Dave, et al,

That statement is from the form that is used by the DMV to issue titles that have no supporting official documentation.

SUBJECT:
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATE OF TITLE ON A MOTOR VEHICLE WITH ALTERNATE PROOF OF OWNERSHIP AND PROCEDURE FOR SECURING A FLORIDA COURT ORDER AWARDING OWNERSHIP

Apparently there is no watercraft version...you use the motor vehicle form.

The concept still applies IMHO, that's all.

If it were me, I would simply use one of my blank MSO forms and be done with it smile
Posted By: Jeff_Bowers

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 12:36 PM

How do you register boats that have been rebuilt? The only part of my boat is that is original is one hull(the one without the ID number on it). New sails(most older boats have done this), replaced the 10' beams with 8.5' hence new tramp. Broke the mast so that has been replaced. One hull had problems and factory replaced that. I know many H16 sailors that have hulls with 2 different ID numbers. This is the case for many older catamarans. Even if I had titled it when I bought it the title would not match the boat.

But the worst part of this is having to put those UGLY stickers on some really nice looking boats.
And for you F18 sailors I'm sure there is some drag involved so you had better add this to the class rules.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bowers
How do you register boats that have been rebuilt?


http://www3.hsmv.state.fl.us/Intranet/dmv/Forms/BTR/Milpak/82040.pdf
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 01:01 PM

Quote
Now what do the 18 foot boat racers do? Continue with Jennifer's idea?

Quote
Jennifer wrote:
Per Chapter 328.56 Vessel registration number, (9) an undocumented vessel used exclusively for racing is not required to display a Florida registration number.


Section 328.03 says an 18 foot non-powered boat MUST be titled.
Section 328.48 says an 18 foot non-powered boat MUST be registered.
Section 328.56 speaks only of DISPLAYING reg numbers.

If you are undocumented you are illegal by 03 and 48.
328.56 doesn't exempt you from being documented, only from displaying numbers that you don't have anyway!

Try using that arguement with an officer with a gun.

Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 01:06 PM

Quote
If it were me, I would simply use one of my blank MSO forms and be done with it


I asked Performance for an MSO for my Nacra. They said no, it was sent with the boat to the original dealer.

If you posted a blank one, I'd appreciate it! Leave the legality and ethics to the user.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 03:47 PM

Go with Timbo's suggestion. Confuse 'em with Fractions!

I think I'll go get a Corsair F-15'1024/64" sure, it looks about 31', but it's really 15' and a fraction...ossifer
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 04:01 PM

Just tell the L.E.O. and the DMV that it's 5.5 meters...he/she will never be able to do the conversion to feet...problem solved...LOL

Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/07/09 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bowers
How do you register boats that have been rebuilt? The only part of my boat is that is original is one hull(the one without the ID number on it). New sails(most older boats have done this), replaced the 10' beams with 8.5' hence new tramp. Broke the mast so that has been replaced. One hull had problems and factory replaced that. I know many H16 sailors that have hulls with 2 different ID numbers. This is the case for many older catamarans. Even if I had titled it when I bought it the title would not match the boat.

But the worst part of this is having to put those UGLY stickers on some really nice looking boats.
And for you F18 sailors I'm sure there is some drag involved so you had better add this to the class rules.


If you want it I have Yves E-mail. I e-mailed with him and he said if you knew the original sail numbers he would be able to come up with the serial#.
As far as the numbers go I think I would try to put them on the inside of the hulls. They could be air brushed on to avoid drag or put them on the boom and explain ( if hassled ) you put them there so they could be easily seen since the bow spends much time under water.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/08/09 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bowers

But the worst part of this is having to put those UGLY stickers on some really nice looking boats.


The statute mentioned above by Jennifer actually states that numbers are not required on boats without motors... that document seemed old, so i don't know if its still valid, but i am hopeful that is still valid...

http://law.onecle.com/florida/vessels/328.56.html
Posted By: Jeff_Bowers

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/08/09 05:02 PM

Mike,
You sailing Saturday. My plan is to come over early Sat morning. I'd come over Friday afternoon if I knew some other boats would be there.
Jeff
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/08/09 05:50 PM

We'll be there fri,sat and sun so come on.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/08/09 06:32 PM

mike, hows the jib working for you?
Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/08/09 06:58 PM

We'll see tomorrow.
Posted By: deepsees

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/09/09 06:37 PM

I tried to register my used 5.7 G Cat and get a title for it... the state turned me down. I had a bill of sale and hull numbers... same as an unpowered canoe.

Posted By: tback

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/09/09 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by deepsees
I tried to register my used 5.7 G Cat and get a title for it... the state turned me down. I had a bill of sale and hull numbers... same as an unpowered canoe.



Meaning they said you didn't need to register it?

Posted By: catman

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 11:56 AM

This is basically what Jill told me she found out. When she explained the boat was a small cat she was told no need to register or title.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 02:23 PM

The incredible government goes on and on.

If you get the NEW 2009 statutes, the law has clearly changed and all of the old opinions are worth nothing. Just read the law and stop asking for opinions.

All vessels over 16 feet must be titled.
All vessels over 16 feet must be registered, with a short list of exceptions that does not include cats. Kayaks, canoes, and racing shells are exempt.

Recent events:

I called DMV and asked for a Tallahassee ruling. The head person at the Tampa office called me and said Tallahassee says we are exempt from registration. When I asked her to explain why she referred to her "DMV handbook" from 2008, clearly out of date.

On the Dunedin Causeway this week a priest with a 21 foot canoe was told by a Sheriff and then a FWC officer that he definitely MUST have reg numbers or he will be cited. This is absolutely incorrect and I will approach the beach Sheriff today and ask him to quote the statute the canoe is violating.
However, it does point out their intentions. These officers did not dream this up. They were TOLD to do this by their higher-ups.

I called Capt. Roger Young of FWC to tell him of his officers incorrectly hassling canoe people, of the DMV quoting incorrect laws leading people to "violate" new ones, and FWC & Sheriffs threatening tickets. I pleaded for him to offer us a way to get everyone on the same page and to offer us a way to title and register boats that have been undocumented for up to 30 years.

No response. Typical, eh?

Posted By: Mary

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 02:32 PM

I wonder what happened to that reporter in Jacksonville, who used to keep an eye on proposed legislation that was going to adversely affect sailboats. He used to warn us to get the word out so we could all write letters.

It's hard to believe the legislators did not intend to include non-motorized sailboats in the group with the canoes.

But if they operate like our federal Congress, they probably don't even know what the bill says. frown
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 03:42 PM

Thanks for trying to clear it up Dave, and I feel your frustration, and remember you are always guilty until you can prove yourself innocent in court.

And even then, they will find something to fine you for.

Just ask JW about his $500 trailer ticket! Ouch!
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 05:09 PM

Quote

It's hard to believe the legislators did not intend to include non-motorized sailboats in the group with the canoes.


Mary, I was told by Fish and Wildlife that this change was written specifically to address the issue of unregistered sailboats. Apparently the waterways of Florida are littered with abandoned sailboats that need to be removed. Without a registration number the state cannot identify the owner to demand removal. The state does not want to continue to pay for the cleanup.

This seems fair but the unintended consequence is the new registration and titling of THOUSANDS of previously undocumented non-powered boats. I don't like to pay the tax but even worse is that there is no (reasonable) way of complying.

I'll keep calling around....
Posted By: Mary

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/10/09 08:29 PM

Waterways littered with nonmotorized abandoned sailboats? That's ridiculous!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/12/09 01:40 PM

i went to dinner after the races last night with some friends. One gal who didnt race, but was at the causeway and honeymoon island stated she talked with a ranger (or some type of official) and he stated the new law was to handle new boats, not old boat ... and they are talking about some type of "grandfather clause"....

I said i will need that in a video deposition so i can keep it with me when i get pulled over...

seems like there is more confusion within the state....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Fl tag and title... watch out ,.... - 10/12/09 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by deepsees
I tried to register my used 5.7 G Cat and get a title for it... the state turned me down. I had a bill of sale and hull numbers... same as an unpowered canoe.



When was this?
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