Waves without Rick

Dear Rick,

I am posting from the HAVAMEGA. Just wanted you to know how disappointed I was to find out that you were not going to be here:<.

I was hoping to learn tons of stuff from the Main Wave Man. Not to mention, I was looking forward to having a glass of wine with you and Mary.

Sincerely,

Mimi Appel

Not my fault.., as you know, we were uninvited. And that was after I had registered.
Sorry, but have fun anyway. Come on down to the Tradewinds and we can tip a few.
Rick

why were you uninvited?

The be honest... there was not an un-invite on this. It has to do with the Hobie Class Association not accepting "Wave Class" rules. Boats have to sail stock at HavaMega. No custom sails or other alterations which are allowed under Rick's rules..

99% of the wave racers I know do not race their boats stock.

Actually it had more to do with pressure from the Hobie Cat Company than anything else. Let's be honest.

The Wave Class (IWCA) has a well established set of rules that have been in effect for virtually all of the Wave events held so far. These are not "Rick's Rules"...they are the official Wave Class rules.

The Hobie Cat Company (not the HCA-NA) recently dissallowed those rules and mandated that HAVAMEGA follow manufacturer's specs on Wave participation, contrary to the IWCA rules.

Most active Wave racers have chosen to attend the Wave North Americans this weekend in Melboune Florida instead.

We all wish HCA-NA and the Hobie Cat Company well with their new Wave class.

You can re-read the 20 something pages of posts about how this happened (last spring) if you like:

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181470&page=1

The factory's input was related to altering "our" charter boats.

Matt Bounds summed it up pretty well...

We are happy to be picking up two of the Factory Waves after the Event. Looks like there will be no danger of having the sails "blown out".

Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
www.sailsandpoint.org

Yes, we (the Active Wave Class, knows as Intl Wave Class Assn. IWCA) were un-invited. That is honestly the truth and everyone knows it.
The only Active Wave Class in North America was invited to the Mega using the rules the Active Wave Class have been using for a number of years now (at least 10 years, I believe).
And then we were told we had to sail stock everything. Most of us have aftermarket tramps and some have sails, so everyone in the Active Wave Class opted to not buy Hobie Tramps, Hobie Sails, and decided to go elsewhere.

Would have liked to have been there.
Again, Sorry,
Rick

I don't see a issue either way. (And I have read through the posts.)

One group wanted a level playing field for the reasons Matt B states: Nor did I want to deal with measuring sails. Another group opts for tweaks. So both went in different directions.

There is really nothing else that can be added to that that is not begging the question.

All of the recent discussions about regatta problems is simply about problems of communication.

As a new person to racing, nothing turns me off more than having information about the regattas confused and poorly laid out. THIS is what's wrong. If you can't say it succinctly for everyone to get quickly and understand clearly then continue to expect what you are getting for regatta attendance...

Really the end of the story.

No, not really. Keep racing HCA and you'll pretty much only have one event (or less) a year to go to.

Absolutely spot on!

and not just new racers.... even old racers want to know what to expect!

Most racers check out the Who's Coming list and it influences their decision to go race.

Heck... look at the OP... Mimi was surprised and disappointed that Rick White was not attending.

It's all about accurate timely information so that people know what to expect.

(I have always thought that the lists of folks who have expressed some interest in attending the regatta are very poor substitutes for Paid and committed to coming lists.)

Good Morning, from the windless Havamega:<

It was not my intention to stir up the hours of discussions from before. I never read any of it at the time. I'm glad I missed out on the drama, because it breaks my heart when Hobie people don't get along. (I was a Division Chair during the Comptip years)

The Wave is a WONDERFUL little boat.

Two words should be kept in the forefront of this discussion....

ONE DESIGN

It's OK to have after market things; your boat, your choice. It's all good. Pleasure sail and race Portsmouth or PHRF.

But I think a level playing field produces the best winner.

WISH YOU WERE HERE

Frankly I'm all for one design. Laudable goal.

But I'm against manufacturer controlled one design. That's a slippery slope toward monopoly, inflated price and a company control over my sport. Like evolving boats one year over the other, some sail being better than other or sometimes not even the same dimensions.

Formula classes have good things going for them (simple box rules, multiple manufacturers) and bad (This year boats are better than last year, hence an arm race). This is not one design, but if the box rules are good enough, that's a close as it gets.

What Rick and the others IWCA members are doing is a one-design *not* controlled by a manufacturer class. Best of the best. All the power to them. Hobie Cat corp is not happy about it because they lose control. Not to mention that Hobie Cat never gave a **** to the wave as a racer, for them it is a "buy 15 for rental on your beach" kind of boat.

Hi Mimi,

O.K., let's keep those two words, ONE DESIGN, in the forefront. That is a good idea because many people think that if it is supplied by Hobie that it is automatically one design. Not even close! First, the boat started out with two very different kinds of tramps, so what difference did it make if owners developed something that they personally liked when a replacement was necessary? (except they got something they liked better for less $)Second, which HOBIE rudders should the owners have brought to the HAVAMEGA regatta? The ones the boat came with when they purchased it or the cheap plastic ones they are supplying now that also come with a shorter tiller that makes it harder to race the boat? Even with Hobie supplied equipment there would be many possible different versions on the beach! For a while Hobie supplied heavy white rudders that broke easily and then started supplying lighter black rudders that were much better. Now the cheap plastic ones. ONE DESIGN? Not even close. Hobie supplies whatever is good for their needs at the moment without ANY consideration or input or consultation with owners. Does that really sound like such a great idea to you? Owners want a say in their class which is why ICWA works.

Staying on focus; ONE DESIGN. Let's discuss sails. Years ago Rick White worked with Calvert sails in the Keys and I worked in Toledo with Greiner Sails to develop better sails for the Wave. We made good progress and it was important to have sails made by another vendor to your specs to race well as they had a clear advantage over Hobie supplied sails. A few years later, the Hobies supplied for the IWCA Nationals had much fuller sails and were about even with anyone else's sails and there was a competitor there who described how he had worked with Hobie to get a better sail design. Most of the long term successful one design classes open their sail making; besides keeping the boat moving better and getting something that is best for each competitor, you also get many more people interested in the succes of the class.

ONE DESIGN? That seems to mean to Hobie that it is one design ONLY IF THEY SUPPLY it, regardless of the design or shape of the part. Your comptip mast experience is just another example. SO everyone, this whole discussion about ONE DESIGN is a red herring. It is more about ONE SUPPLIER.

I could write a whole lot more about the Hobie NA Wave Class not even being a class but that is not on topic. This was all about ONE SUPPLIER, oops, ONE DESIGN.

Those last two posts are so on point. Hobie wishes to control it all. They wish to dictate and control, giving them the edge when a replacement is needed. Its good for business but not so good for the sport. It should make no difference where replacement parts come from as long as they are approximate duplicates of the original. If Whirlwind builds me a standard sail whats the difference between it and a Hobie made sail, except for the cost? In fact Whirlwind is run by the same person who used to work in the Hobie loft. I just don't get it!
And god forbid the Hobie factory people ever admit they might have made a mistake, their **** doesn't stink and they walk on water!

I was sorry to hear about this thread from Mimi while we were on the beach in AZ. Obviously, there will always be strong feelings on both sides of the issue. For my part, I love the boat and enjoyed my years in the class. I also sincerely enjoyed seeing the boat raced at a Hobie event where some participants were surprised at how sweet the design really is.

I can say unequivocally that efforts to get US SAILING to choose sides between these two classes will fail, and I strongly advise anyone taking a hand in the matter to drop it. The Multihull Council was unanimous on this issue when it first came up years ago; there will be no exclusion of one class association at the request of another.

Hi John, I was GREAT to meet you the last week and you are truley a fantastic PRO and made the event on Charley really fun and we appreciate your working it.
I love the Wave, you all know that, and I think it solves most of the problems we (all of us) have with numbers, crew, age and $$$ and will continue to beat the drum on the 'tupperware' boat. Someone asked my the other day if I have to 'burp' my boat before I take it off the beach.
While I am the class chair this year, I don't necessarily love all the rules for which I am asked to abide by, but I am certainly aware of both sides of the coin in regards to the Wave. In private emails from people I don't know, I have been told in capital letters (I assume yelling!) that we're wrong and they're right and blah blah blah......
I am with Mimi, its too bad we didn't have the IWCA there (I wanted them there, I really did) but maybe sometime down the road a-piece, after we actually put a group of racers together, we can all meet on the course and have a smackdown. The boat is fun, and we should enjoy it and not get hostile about any of it. I think the IWCA is a good deal and I hope they continue to grow, just allow me (us) to do the same. I hope to bring some Waves to Indiana next May, maybe we'll see you there.]
cw

i think all this can be worked out and a solution can be found using the tried and true method... greased watermellon races.. first team with 3 in their basket win!

PS. CW.. great comments.

<<The boat is fun, and we should enjoy it and not get hostile about any of it.>> amen to that, lets work it out and race together :>

Topics like this remind me why I've never been interested in racing my boat.

It's hard to get your nose out-of-joint, as a recreational sailor. My personal whining about the woes of sailing involve: power boats, float planes, personal water craft, blown off hats, and beers lost to Davy Jones Locker.-That's plenty for me. I'll leave the competitive "tempests in a teapot", to others.

Actually, you are missing a world of fun. There is not a better sport in the world, in my opinion.
I once played college football, raced motocross and hare scrambles.., but can't do those anymore. Yet, at 72 years old, I just missed winning the Wave North Americans. Only sport I know where you can be competitive as long as someone can load you on the boat and stick a tiller in your hand.

And, how about knowledge? You have to have a grasp of aerodynamics, aquadynamics, have to be physically able to trim sails to optimum speed, know angles of attack, know the rules of the road, understand all about weather (i.e., sea breezes effects, frontal winds, puffs, shore effects, etc.) and then put them all together in a game of chess on the water.

Sorry, but reaching back and forth dodging PWC is not my cup of tea.

Racing sailboats IS where it is at. What you are seeing in these Forums are folks that are simply wanting to do it the way that is the most fun for them. It takes organization to have regattas. It DOES NOT take organization to reach around a lake.
So, that organization part is what you are witnessing here. There is NO ONE hostile here. We are all working toward a common goal -- having fun and fair racing.
Rick

Organized Racing is the reason you travel with your kids 2000 miles away to exotic locations (relatively speaking). Without Racing, my family would never have had any reason to go to: Upstate New York (twice), Oklahoma City , Panama City, Biloxi, Ventura CA, LHC, Big Marine Lake, Long Beach, Yankton SD and Pensacola. All this while the 2 older ones were in High School. Before we raced, we stayed on Clear Lake. zzzzzzzz.
Rick's right about the perceived bickering, it is just the organizational aspects of any group. We just do it on the net because of geography limitations.

Chris you forgot to mention Spicier Mn.

We've also been to lots of places we wouldn't have otherwise gone. Unfortunately, we never seem to give ourselves enough time to be tourists, we just show up, race and go home (our loss).

Since we're talking about opinions regarding organizational behavior, here are a few of mine...

It's unfortunate that the IWCA racers chose to stay home from the Mega. I think it would have sent a FAR better message if they went to AZ anyway.

Without rehashing the old stuff, there were serious efforts made to allow the IWCA rules, but there were unforeseen complications, and a decision was made as time was perceived to be running out. That doesn't change the fact that we (the HCA officers and Board) really wanted everyone there, and want this to work in the future.

To me, staying home just says, "If I can't have it my way all the time, I'm not playing." That is very a pre-adolescent attitude, and is very hurtful in the long run. You'd get a lot more respect if you showed up and demonstrated through your actions that you're serious about making it work in the future. To me, that's not "giving in," it's making an effort to help the thing evolve.

I see the same sort of issue in respect to ISAF and coming up with all sorts of cute names for events because "Worlds" is forbidden. It would be far more productive to work to meet the ISAF requirements to eventually be able to have a "Worlds" than to "throw it in their face" and have work-arounds. The very problem of multiple NA events for the same class is why ISAF is so serious about Worlds.

Having said all of that, Rick's last post does show that we may be headed in the right direction, let's see how 2010 shakes out. But, unless the planning and discussion starts now, I wouldn't be expecting a different outcome.

Mike

I don't have a cat in this fight, but did y'all have enough class legal charter waves to supply the IWCA folks if they had showed, or were they supposed to buy class legal kit and refit their boats to go to one race?
By the way I think the whole SMOD mindset is just a money grab.I deal with it in the N-20 class. Hopefully, this can all be worked out to the racer's advantage.

Glad to hear you want things to evolve... especially if the outside the class IWCA group would just change... and conform to our way of doing things.

How about addressing an issue that actual HCA class members want changed before addressing the very small number of HCA Wave racers concerns.

How about a report on this motion at the NAHCA meeting that actually comes from class members who WANT to invite the F18's.



My understanding is that it was tabled. It's basically the same issue as the Waves. Formula Waves versus HCA Waves. Formula 18's versus HCA Hobie Tigers.

I wasn't involved in the charter arrangements. I was involved with the HCA discussions that ultimately led to the APPROVAL of use if IWCA rules. It got muddy after that for several valid reasons that didn't get resolved in the time period allowed, but we (HCA) were headed in the right (big picture) direction. There was a decent number of charters available, and I'm confident that if demand were overwhelming early enough in the planning stage, arrangements could have been made for more. HCC is in the business of building and selling boats, and the Wave is their number one seller.

Mark, there's no good way to say this: you have your head completely up your a@@ on the Wave issue. HCA approved the use of IWCA rules for HavaMega, and were prepared to consider incorporating them into points regattas if HavaMega had a huge IWCA turnout.

As for the F18 issue, this is still a hot topic. The HCA AGM is only 2 hours long, and lots of business has to be conducted.

One note of caution: Just because there are a (potentially large) number of people that are vocally in favor, does not meant they are the majority, or that the Division Chairs, who actually do the voting, will decide to go in this direction.

Having said that, the F18 issue was tabled not because the class leadership is against it, but for the complete opposite reason: to be as fair as possible to all sides and to give the issue its own meeting for discussion and ultimately for a vote. You owe Chris (and the entire group) an apology.

How about, join the class, show up at a meeting (or call in), and you'd have a better understanding of what's actually going on.

Mike

You know... I think I did join the HCA class.... at Nigel's Spring Fever Regatta years ago and then I was not allowed to join the following year.... something about not owning a Hobie....

I also have a problem with joining a class where my vote is irrelevant. I have this thing about a democratic process.

Look... you can quietly dither about the formula issue (F18's and Waves) for HCA regattas forever.... I called you out because out of the blue you bashed the IWCA guys and call them "pre adolescent".... I think they were happily doing their thing...thought they would take the HCA offer and partner with NAHCA and keep doing their thing... and then SOMEBODY had issues so they are back to doing their own thing without the HCA "organization".

The F18's are doing their own thing as well.... a motion was made by an HCA division to include the F18's and .... surprise... SOMEBODY had issues so it was tabled.

Now,... if you can't resolve the formal F18 request at your annual meeting... Why in god's name are you asking the IWCA waves to work something out for 2010? They have seen this movie before... they know the ending.

I just asked for a report because it was tabled and applicable to the WAVE issue you brought up..

The only important organizational questions are"

Will catamaran racing be stronger in 2010 if Yacht Clubs, or Hobie Fleet XX, aka Organizing Authorities run Points events for IWCA waves, and Formula 18's?

Will Hobie Racing be stronger if YC's give starts to Hobie 18's and some other catamaran class or dinghies and have Hobie HCA tally their points?

Mark, you hit a raw nerve with the typical blind comments that are made following HCA meetings. Happens year after year, always by people who weren't there, and usually aren't members.

You don't have to own a Hobie to be a member. You shouldn't vote on Hobie issues if your primary intent is to promote Brand X sailing, but that is a different matter.

What I said wasn't out of the blue. Actions and words have not been aligning, and that needs to happen to move forward (again, just my opinion). The case can be made that this is true for all sides, but I was speaking solely for the HCA, because it was approved by HCA (after a lot of discussion).

I do agree with the importance of your two last questions, although what you might believe are the correct answers may not be agreed by the class.

In any organization, ultimately votes are held and decisions are made. If one is not willing to go with the group decisions, maybe one just is not meant to be in any organization. If one's personal opinion doesn't carry the vote, one can go away, but will that really make one any happier, or the class any stronger?

You still owe Chris an apology. He is the one who (wisely) moved to table the F18 discussion so it could be given plenty of time for discussion. No one at HCA is interested in tabling it without a discussion and vote.

Mike

Mark
What Mike L says is true and it was tabled to give it the serious attention it deserves. We could have lost control of the meeting very quickly and as soon as I smelled a riot, I stopped it. We've got a confernce call between interested parties coming up soon and I am sure someone will trascribe the entire thing and post it here for you to tear apart, I mean read.
Waves: Last time. We had boats, good intentions, and hopes to let the little boats all sail (HCA/IWCA). It got **** and all I can say is that I am sorry. Not my plan but it is what it is. I learned a little from HavaMega and plan to use what I learned going forward. No real bad guy here, just a set of circumstances. And if you can honestly say the F18 issue and the Wave situation are the same than I don't have a response to that. The Wave is the answer to dwindling regatta numbers and getting kids on multihulls and keeping our older guys sailing. The F18 is for the expert only, big money cat sailors. They should put the 4 hour erection warning on the side of the boat. Not the same issues, not even close.

Wow, never said better.

Amen. Plus getting more women on the helm.

<<so, that organization part is what you are witnessing here. There is NO ONE hostile here. We are all working toward a common goal -- having fun and fair racing.>>

VERY well said Rick.
Can't wait to work out some stuff and make plans for next WAVE racing season. I am SOOOO excited that we all will be racing against each other! Hopefully Kathy and Dan K too.

Chris W. and I are talking seriously about racing Put-in-Bay (isn't that where singer/comedian John Daily is from?)

Also I will try to put together a Wave start at Madcatter this year. Remember I tried a couple years back after having a blast on a Wave at Tradewinds. If at first you don't succeed....

<<The Wave is the answer to dwindling regatta numbers and getting kids on multihulls and keeping our older guys sailing. >>

I agree!
Kids and older guys, girls, it's all good! You should watch what happens when you put 4 never been sailing kids on a Wave. The way they workout who will drive, who will get fire-hosed on the bow and who will just go along for the ride is absolutely fantastic. Life lessons in getting along that adults can learn from:>

SOOO glad this thread is positive. Life is short and hopefully more often than not...
LIFE'S A REACH

Really????? I was thinking the exact opposite. Someday people will figure out how to promote their own class without putting down others. I sail an F-18 and am not an expert nor do I have big money. I must have missed a memo that told me I should not be sailing in that class.

Are you suggesting if my mast is up for more than 4 hours i need to seek medical attention?

No, why would you want to see your Dr? First find your wife, then go brag to your friends

The F18 is for the expert only, big money cat sailors. They should put the 4 hour erection warning on the side of the boat.

I have to take complete exception to this quote. Our first F18 cost us $500.00 more then we sold our Hobie 20 for. We can after a few times of getting things figured out set up and take down a F18 faster then a Hobie 20, usually 30-35 min. And Kelly who would have spent about 15 driving a boat before we switched on the F18 leaned to sail on a F18 and in less then a year is a very good sailor. All classes have pluses and minus depending on your point of view, but can we not all get along and just enjoy the great sport of sailing.

No one put the F18s down. The F18 class is the by far the best Cat class that has come along and should have a long and viable life. It is dynamic enough to keep the cutting edge folks interested.

However, F18s are not an everyday boat for the rank and file casual, kid, old fart, lazy, laid back, whatever....sailor.

The interesting thing is that Waves are damn fun to race. I would never have guessed such until Rick got us to Put-In-Bay last Summer.

ksurfer2 You're kidding right? Okay, sorry. The F18 is a good boat for novice sailors with a limited budget and should really retain the older sailors and of course attract the kids like flys to honey. Happy now?

DanK: I am not sure what you said to be honest.

Karl, Dan: You guys need to buy F16s! BTW, your ladies rock!!

Karl,
It's all Hobiecentric spew ,look at the source. Discussing anything not in their agenda is like arguing politics online. It's a WASTE of your time.Save your typing fingers and have fun sailing your superfast pro boat. Of course they may be right, if you have an extremely low adrenalin level.
It seems to me it's like apples and oranges.

Now who's talking ****. Jack even said the Wave was suprisingly fun to sail and he sails a bigger boat usually. Adreneline levels low? Good one.

edit: Am I to assume Karl is Ksurfer? So you had a N20 and now sail an F18 and you're trying to tell me you're not into it for some $$ nor have what could be termed 'expert' skills?

you forgot insanely expensive.

You were given special dispensation as a former N20 sailor. ALL HAIL N20

Right from “I have no agenda,” to anti-HCA inflammatory hyperbole, very impressive.




To all: From all the years I’ve been involved, this is where the real issue lies. Generally speaking, HCA leadership truly believes that SMOD is right for the class. Part of this belief lies in the concept that opening the sail rules, etc. ADDS costs and lowers fairness. I know, IWCA (and several others here) feel the direct opposite is true, and this is where the primary issue lies (in my opinion).

Here’s the SMOD argument: It seems very hard to argue that allowing third party sails lowers cost. Maybe for a replacement sail, but definitely not for a new (or like-new) boat. They come with a sail, adding a third party sail to “be more competitive” by definition adds costs, and one could say, turns it into an arms race, not a true test of who’s better on the water.

In any organization, the easiest thing to do is always nothing; keep the status quo. However, the HCA has been recently open to the idea of allowing IWCA rules to see if it will have a positive result on regatta attendance.

One common theme that comes up in discussion is this: Will this help us or hurt us? If we’re going to get ripped apart (verbally, online, etc.) no matter what we do, why should we change our organization to appease the whims of others?

This is what needs to be addressed. Coming out in online rants, refusing to play nicely and attend regattas, etc. does not give the impression that the HCA will be better with you in it.

I really hope no one takes offense to this, because I’m actually trying to help by telling you what the results of your words and actions can be causing.

Mike

Hey Chris, what I was trying to say is that you can get a F18 very reasonable, they are no tougher to set up then a Hobie 20 and that a beginner can easily sail the boat.

Hey Pete, it was great to meet you. We really liked the F16, but we love the F18. And ditto on the gal's!

I really hope no one takes offense to this, because I’m actually trying to help by telling you what the results of your words and actions can be causing.

Hey, Mike,
PASSIVE / AGGRESSIVE

<edit> i need to remove my thoughts from this.. i am not involved</edit>

I suck at passive.

What I posted is all true, at least, truly my opinions and views of the matter.

Mike

Your assumption about who I am is correct. As is your statement about the boats I sail. Does that mean that there is "Big money" involved? Absolutely not!!!!

Yes, I can comptetently get the boat around the course, but continually get taken to school by the experts out there, and I have the results to prove it.

Please stop making broad stroked assumptions about other classes and the people that sail in them.

BTW.....your comment about the 4 hour erection warning is just rediculous and insulting.

Hey Mike

Reality check time.

Year by Year... the SMOD concept becomes less relevant to cat racing in North America.

1) The idea that costs are contained by SMOD is disputed by a majority of the experienced racers in 2009. Back in the day.... is history. (see mike fahles's post)

2) The idea that performance wins in SMOD is disputed by a majority of experienced racers who want sails that match their size to optimize their performance in a class and not the other way around.... Back in the day... "one cut fits all" .... is history. Notice, the hot classes are all formula!

3) The idea that IF we ONLY sanction HOBIE Class One Design racing THEN it will be good for the class and sailors is disputed by .... wait for it... HOBIE RACERS, who at this year's NA's .... quoting you..
"Just because there are a (potentially large) number of people that are vocally in favor, does not meant they are the majority," OR Chris about the guys who forced this response... "as soon as I smelled a riot, I stopped it."

(Perhaps, the needs of 10 or so Hobie 16 racers who may or may not be allowed to compete at Hobie 16 worlds is screwing up the needs of the riotous mob at the NAHCA meeting who have alternate views as to what's good for hobie racing in 2010.)

The IWCA class was not and is not telling NAHCA what to do.
NAHCA asked them to come play...

The F18 class is not telling NAHCA what to do... the request came from the Syracuse region... who lost a regatta this upcoming season and look at the success of the Canadian F18 season and say... Hey... that would be good for us!

I just asked you for a report on the motion.... I can't be any more neutral then that!

You are DREAMING if you think that catamaran world will suck up to the NAHCA and apologize or be grateful for any actions you take.

Should you change your policy and give starts to IWCA Waves and F18's... We will be thrilled and applaud your foresight. The cat racing community will recognize that your actions are serving your sailors and acknowledge your actions as vitally important to keeping the sport alive. We promise to not look backwards and only look forwards and jointly promote Waves and F18's to the sailors looking for that experience.... (I promise Tawd will be gracious and behave as well (grin))

And if your SMOD philosophy is unable to bend a little... Oh well... The world will continue as it's been going... The IWCA class and the F18 Class have their own regattas and NAHCA waves, Tigers and Wildcats are more then welcome to come out and play at these events. The OA's would LOVE to increase their attendance.

Mark

(oh... and to stop the thread... you and chris might stop pissing on other peoples toy boats... they tend to love them and scratch back.)

Different day, so you have a different spin, Mark?

There was nothing neutral about your original posts. You clearly stated (not insinuated) that HCA was trying to delay to make the F18 issue go away. You had similar comments regarding the Waves. Simply untrue.

I'll say it again, just because YOU (and some others) don't like SMOD, doesn't mean lots of HCA people feel the same. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

And, why is it so hard to comrehend that HCA LIKES being part of IHCA?

Don't misunderstand the riotous mob comment. There are strong, equally valid thoughts and feelings on BOTH sides. This may not be a done deal.

No one is asking the "catamaran world [to] suck up to the NAHCA and apologize or be grateful for any actions." I said that you, Mark, owe Chris an apology for talking out of your uninformed little part of the world and accusing him of shutting down the F18 debate for dubious reasons. You, Mark, (not the "catamaran world") still do.

BTW, WTF are you talking about? I never insulted anyone else's boat.

Mike

I dont know when I pissed on anyone's boats. This Karl guy is insulted because I inferred that the F18 is so much fun it will cause the sailors to get a 4 hour erection. Sorry if that offended you. Get a sense of humor or go see a urologist (Call our buddy Herb)
I don't want to be misinterpreted: I was clearing trying to seperate the Wave and F18 issues facing the HCA and of course was attacked for it. I have yet to say one negative thing about anyone's boat, anyone's organization or anyone. I have taken a lot of ****, so has Mike, Matt and anyone else from HCA and I am still thinking this is kinda fun.
So, in summary: We have rules (that none of the current whipping boys have had anything to do with writing BTW) that we are asked to abide by, and will continue to do the will of our Board. You see it as shortsighted and detremental to sailing catamarans, but it is what it is. jWe have made some tweaks (the YC OD start we came up with) and they are working out great. We hope to make more tweaks too, but again, at the mercy of the Board (guys and girls from all over the region) to dictate what we (HCA) can and can't do. You guys beating Mike and Matt and me into the ground are just shooting the messengers.
Live long and prosper.

I enjoy my four hour erections and so do all the ladies who took part of the activities.

F18 is a bad butt boat
Waves are cool to, but kinda to slow for my taste, plus no fleet in my location.

The important thing is the fleets, if there is a fleet of waves have at it, fleet of F18s have at it.

Whatever floats your sails, push it hard.

I just might have that put on my headstone!

I just went back are re read a couple posts and for Karl to get pissed about the 'broad stroke' statements I made about the cost of an F18 and the skill it takes to operate one. I am mystified. I don't care what you say, the cheapest used F18 still costs more than a brand new Wave and most Hobie 16s (not that this statement makes any difference, but just a source of comparison) and so therefore my 'broad statement' about big money (should have said 'relative' big money)pretty much holds true. And as far as inferring that all F18 sailors fall into the 'expert skill' sailing category: I apologize from the bottom of my heart for making that wild and outlandish statement. I am sure that anyone can jump on a Formula 18, and make it go without much experience. The Spin system just looks really simple to operate and doing the WildThing just comes naturally. Whatever.

As for the waves I have no opion as it doesn't affect me in any way. Show up at one of my regattas with an aftermarket sail and we would let you run, but knowing if your competetors protest you will take the hit.

For the F-18 / Wildcat / Tiger argument we had long discussions on this issue. We as Division 3 had 5 Tigers at Havamega and talked as a group. All 5 voted to allow the Wildcat ,and 3 voted to allow other F-18's. Our input was given to our division rep and then on to Chris. Chris told us there was going to be a large meeting / conference call to address more of the class as a whole.
So while it was tabled at the AGM it is not done. Chris wanted a more comprehensive group of the Tiger fleet. This was mainly a West Coast Championship so we wanted to wait till the east coast contingent weighed in. Chris took everything we had to input and listened well to our concerns and wishes. While there may not be a solution that appeases everyone yet I feel one may be coming.

I don't really think there were many of the East Coasters who were planning to go in the first place other than Rick. Its not like 10 or 20 ICWA sailors bailed because the rules changed.

In reality it was a West Coast event. I know there were a few trailers from the Heatland, but how many other classes had much support from outside the West?

The weather was easily predictable. The venue had loads of Hobie sentimental history but not much sailing appeal.

My bet is that if had ICWA rules prevailed, there probably would have been 10 Waves rather than 7.

I agree with that one Jack. BUT, Lake Havasu was one of the most awesome sailing places I have been to yet, we just got crap wind. Happens every NAC I have been to, and that really was a fun regatta.

"...we just got crap wind. Happens every NAC I have been to..."

So YOU'RE the jinx???

Matt, are you reading this?



Mike

Someone move him to the Gulf Coast... at least from June to October...

Chris, there are "Talkers" and "Doers". Thanks for being a "Doer".
Enjoyed our chats at Havasu. Proud of our growing Northwest
Fleet of Tigers in Div. 4, now over 20. Six made the long trip to Lake Havasu, and took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. They are also part of the sailors that should, and will make the decision on the future of the Tiger Fleet.

On the Wave side, happy to take the top two Waves back to Seattle to add to our growing fleet at Sail Sand Point.

Caleb Tarleton

Now Mike,
Who exactly is twisting stuff up. The first post was Wave only topic, and I don't own a wave hence the disclaimer. Then F-18 was dragged into your silliness. My agenda then became to point out the absurdity of that post. I could go back and get posts you've made over the past couple of years and pull your same crap if I wanted to waste the time. You shouldn't post on an open forum if you don't want unsolicited comments.
SMOD promotes mediocrity and overpriced gear. If your serious you replace your sails fairly often if your not ,your not a contender anyway and probably don't care.

So to advance cat sailing we need to dumb it down?



Maybe that keeps happening because y'all incessantly defend the rules you didn't write,and sound as if you did .

See, I think the kiddie's need something cool, and shiny. Like a Playstation controller.







I'll get my coat......

Yes.

Your average Joe doesn't have the $$ or the experience to deal with a spin boat out of the box. Why do you think they use Waves and Getaways at resorts (other than they're indestructible)?

You want more people to play? Keep it simple. Spinnaker boats are not simple.

For rentals maybe for racing, I sure hope not. That's WEAK! I don't have a problem with a wave, I've been thinking of getting one, I just don't think it's the answer to all cat racing. Not even close. It's like saying the Prius is the answer to car racing.

You really don't get it, do you, Todd?

People don't start racing in a Formula 1 car.

You can't see why anyone would want to race anything but the biggest, baddest machine out there. Guess what? A lot of people don't want to deal with the complexity and cost of a F18 / I20 or even an F16.

Why do you think that the Hobie 16 is still the largest catamaran class in North America?

John like Wave. Wave good boat. John like sail Wave with many friend of John. Many pretty girl sail Wave. John like many pretty girl. Wave make pretty girl giggle. More Wave, say John.

How's that for dumbing it down?

But John have wife and she beat John till dumb If she reads that comment.

Does your wife know about this?

I call bullsmoke ! Anyone can join the Hobie Class Association. Boat ownership is not required

Mark, for someone who is not a member, you spend an awful lot of time throwing stones at the HCA and offering opinions about how they ought to be running their organization.

Quite honestly, I cannot imagine that the F-18NAC organization is all that excited about the HCA running open events for the F-18 Class. In the fullness of time it could make them (the F-18NAC)at best less effective, and at worst, rather irrelevant.

Actually, the Wave is a POS compared to what I would call "real" catamarans. I would rank it in the Yugo category if you compare Cats to cars.

In spite of that, even Yugos would be fun to race if everyone had one. Some of the most successful racing series (cars) are for spec cars...like Spec Miata.

However, a Yugo certainly would be no fun at all if it had shitty tires, worn out shocks, badly tuned engine and such.

If you let guys tune them up, adjust a few things and get decent rubber, then bring it on.

The Wave is the same way. Decent sail, rudders that aren't both warped in the same direction (lee helm on one tack/weather helm on the other) etc.

We are only asking to be able to fix some of the flaws that don't present themselves in a rental environment.

Jack I agree,If I got one that's how I'd race it,with the add-ons.
Matt ,maybe I don't get it, it wouldn't be the first time. I race to go fast ,I cruise to relax( and I'm not very good at that).

Hmmm will I have a problem when I introduce a new high tech tri not made by Hobie?

This was the reason I stayed away from Hobies Cats (besides buying faster boats for the time) large fleets but too much "country clubbing" for "bare foot by the butt sailing". When the NACRA 5.2 came out in the 70’s a Hobie sailor holed me on the beach between races because I was winning. I know I can’t just judge all by the actions of a few = but in my Newbie days it left a profound first impression.

Think of your new Hobie Newbies be kind! Next topic - Why can’t we all get along.

Outsider looking in - jus’ sayin’

Mimi like Wave, Wave good boat. Mimi happy to be friend of John. Everyone sail Wave, everyone giggle like girl

Rich like Tiger.
Tiger good boat.
Spin make Rich's wife happy.
Rich's wife happy Rich happy.
Rich's wife not happy, NOBODY'S happy!

Children,

In the event that your father never told you this let me tell it to you now.

Never make fun of another man’s (or woman’s) boat unless you’re looking for a fight.

So, let me get this straight: I say that an F18 will cause a 4 hour erection but you guys call the Wave Dumb and I AM BEING INSULTING?? Shhhiiitttt.

Thats why the wife Likes the F-18.

We love the Waves in Seattle. That is why we still do this three times a year. http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm

Caleb Tarleton

I thought you were making a stab at the time it takes to rig one. I now realize you were describing the enduring pleasure a great spin ride can induce!

Rich-Funny as hell. Let me know when you get that newspaper, I sent it yesterday. 5150 is awesome btw.

Caleb, thanks, it was great meeting you too and I'll get my nephew down to the sailing school in the spring

The Hobie Wave: So easy a Caveman can do it. (or Cavemimi)

Windhill20 Yea, I was trying to say its bitchen, not a pain in the butt.

Hey I finished last but I had fun. I'd rather make a fast boat look slow than a slow boat look fast. But I'm crazy like that.

Nobody said the wave was dumb, Either you don't get it or you guys just love to twist some sh1t up. I said ,in response, to apparently, what was a misinterpretation of your F-18 erectile comment, that if the wave is what catsailing needs to advance, than that is dumbing it(cat racing)down.Looks like JW didn't get me either so I guess I wasn't clear,go figure. There is nothing wrong with the wave, it's just not exactly what I have strived to get better to end up on. But like Matt said I probably don't get it. I want to go as fast as I can afford, and I know that I'm in the lower income bracket on this board, so the money excuse doesn't float. I have an A-cat and a N-20 and didn't break the bank on either one. I truly hate debating this crap on the intarweb ,too much room for misinterpretation. So since I probably will never be at a regatta with you folks,to discuss this in person. I'll leave it at that.

Variety is the spice of life.

There is no -one size fits all- catamaran, thank God!

Each design has it's benefits and drawbacks, so find the one that -fits- your situation at the moment and go sail it. Gnashing teeth here is uesless.

Yea, you're back peddeling so fast I am afraid you're gonna fall down. Thanks for chiming in though.

Bite me,****stick!
Go to the Drill baby thread, you'll fit in perfect there.They love to twist up the topic.

Was that for me? What the Fk are you talking about? Enlighten me, please.

I think some of these guys get wound up and lose focus Tim.

Still...this bantering does more good than bad and it keeps us coming back for more, doesn't it?

BTW, HSR Sebring is Dec 4-6. I'll get you on the VIP list. I won't be there because we will be sailing these wretched Waves at Islamarada.

He called my boat dumb and now he's calling me names. Temper temper. Seems like you can say whatever you want but I can't? I think that's bullshi#.
No timbo, not aimed at you, its for my buddy Team Cat Fever.

Twist,Twist,twist.
I didn't call your boat dumb (use your reading and comprehension skills) but you got the rest right. The self pity thing doesn't work for you.

Xander, sorry for the confusion, tough to tell who's talking to who unless you use the quotes.

Jack, I saw some flyers around town about that Dec. race and they also show GPX Motorcycles on the cover! That would be Great to see! Thanks and please shoot me a PM with what I need to know, thanks again!! My boat is always available for you when you come back to SIR. Have fun at the Wave's!

Jack, Just for your information, we were looking at about 10 people interested in going to the Mega and chartering Waves. I was contemplating driving out and taking a bunch of boats for the guys at PIB.
Whether that number would have followed through or not, I don't know, because as soon as the reversal in rules, I asked all those people and most agreed to just drop the idea.
Actual numbers we will never know for sure, but I feel pretty certain it would have made up a very good sized class.
Rick

FYI: My comment wasn't directed at you

Very, very correct.

Wow, with a number of the comments here, several of you experts have really added to the greater understanding of problem: F18s and hard-ons. Diabolical factory control. Whoooo. Newbies want in!


John, where's the flip side? For whatever reason (looks like many), the two (or more) sides still aren't getting together to come to a solution.

A solution would be some ideas of what will work.

Not going to spend $400 and up for motel, food costs, entry fees to try to figure out regatta instructions.

For seasoned racers in performance boats, I am sure that is no problem. Most of you racing cliches are tight groups who know the game. Newbies are a pain.

What exactly was I twisting up? Mark brought the F18s into this, I corrected him about the issue at hand (the tabling of the discussion at the meeting). There was nothing “silly” about that, it’s what happened at the meeting, period.

And, I’ll say it again, BOTH sides of the SMOD argument have merit. Just because YOU don't agree, doesn't make you right and others wrong.

Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll again point out that I never said anything about the F18 boat or its sailors, other than, don’t expect that the voting members of the HCA necessarily think the same way you do. Doesn’t make them better than you, or vice-versa.

All of this is just part of the overall point I was trying to make about how to move this forward, since it’s going to require an organizational change. There have been too many examples of poor organizational behavior to this point, we need something to change or this will never move forward (status quo, SMOD will remain).

You don’t have to LIKE it, but that is the reality of the situation.

"SMOD promotes mediocrity and overpriced gear." Needless to say, I disagree. I've owned three new Hobie 16s in the past 12 years, and each has had (incremental) improvements over the last. I don't know about your manufacturer, but HCC listens to its customers by actively engaging in our sport at the highest levels (support of points regattas, area champs and NAs; supplying boats for Worlds, etc.), and uses the feedback to improve its product while staying within the confines of the IHCA class rules. I don't think you can ask more from a manufacturer.

And to correct your last point, if you’re actually serious, you replace the WHOLE BOAT often, which gets you new SMOD sails, no matter what manufacturer you use. When HCC starts selling new boats without a sail, the argument for saving money MIGHT have some weight.

Mike

JJ, I don't think there is a requirement for the two sides to come together. Things have been fine with two class associations. Hobie sells boats to both. In that respect, it does parallel the Tiger/F18 - if you buy a Tiger, you get a shot at two national-level events every year. If you can get that sort of time off, that's awesome.



Your premise is that there is something broken. I don't see anything wrong with the status quo. Wave owners can join and race in both associations, and the differences are minor enough and the boat is simple enough that going back and forth between the two is likely as simple as swapping a sail. I see only winners.

JJ, sorry you feel that way. Since you have a Hobie (by the looks of your avatar), come to Madcatter and we'll happily prove you wrong.

Mike

Anyone can sail in both classes with a stock (Hobie) sail. If that makes them uncompetitive at IWCA events, SMOD advocates would say that proves the point that SMOD is the way to an even playing field.

Mike

Hi Mike -

You're correct in your first statement. Your second supposition would be correct if it were born out over the last decade of Wave racing. I've owned and raced both - stock and after-market. I would contend that, depending upon which stock sail you got, things were very even. Keep in mind that the factory never intended the Wave as a racing boat. The IWCA only opened up sails because the factory had produced so many different cuts and materials - Dacron, Mylar, monofilm, flat and full. The class adopted the factory spec and people (including me) saved a lot of money on their second sail after their original sail started showing some age.

Still, I only see winners. Mimi made a great point to me on the beach at Havasu - she said the best boat is the one that gets sailed. For her, the simplicity and fun of the Wave is keeping her on the water. She's wise beyond her years.

Mike - he was being sarcastic. It doesn't translate well into a forum post.

"The IWCA only opened up sails because the factory had produced so many different cuts and materials - Dacron, Mylar, monofilm, flat and full."

Thanks John. That's a side of the story I honestly hadn't heard before. What I kept hearing was that Hobie sails are too expensive, and fat people need specially cut sails (I'm "horizontally challenged," so let's not go there).

Mimi's a NA champ now. Can't mess with that logic!

Mike

Yep, I missed that...

Mike

How about racing all boats in one fleet and when it's over do a Portsmouth calculation as an Open race. If the replacement sails are the same area (within 5%) I think the 0.995 MN modification would apply. The new and improved boats would need to give the stock boats 18 seconds per hour handicap. If the new sails didn't offer that much improvement they weren't worth arguing about.

However, the arguement could be made that only aggressive (better?) sailors would upgrade and so faster sailors would sail faster boats, thus compounding the problem. If you include the rudders, take another 18 seconds. I bet the original race results would not change much.

When you think about it, it's just a boat! You folks are starting to sound like Little League dads. You could just step behind the dugout and settle it with your fists.

I call bullsmoke ! Anyone can join the Hobie Class Association. Boat ownership is not required

Commenting on the Hobie Policy... of we tried to do the right thing but "SOMEBODY" Really... I mean it... no bad guys here ... some well meaning person stopped us.... So give us credit for trying.... we have rules we must follow

I had let the issue drop.... UNTIL this public shot towards the sailors of the IWCA class who did not go to your regatta.



You guys deserve being called out for that shot!

I then asked what happened to the F18 proposal...because I was told it was tabled.

... Hobie18rich wrote:



Why bring F18's up?... because the process for letting the F18's race at Hobie regattas should be about the same as letting the IWCA waves race at Hobie regattas.

So without resolving this similar question...after the cluster called IWCA Waves at Havamega. .. don't you think it's a arrogant to ask the IWCA Waves to show up in 2010... especially when you don't bring up the core issue at your annual meeting?



ding ding ding. RIGHT... unless planning and discussion starts now to invite IWCA Waves to Hobie Class events ... (perhaps at the annual meeting)...

and the IWCA organization decides to put these new Hobie events on their schedule and also promises to support them.


BUT Rich said....

Hmmm... the ball seems to be in the NAHCA's court. (unless you think its a good policy to invite them and promise nobody will protest them).

Will you modify your rules and invite IWCA Waves to Hobie Regattas?...
Will you modify your rules and allow the F18's to race at Hobie regattas?

For 2010?

Will those two classes care to come out and play?

I beleive you wrote


The partnership between a class and a yacht club is critical and the Hobie class's need some flexibility.

Keep in mind about the Wave and F18 invites. ... the key word is INVITE....The invited class might be over scheduled or not interested in the event and just not show or commit to coming...

Presumably, you know that the IWCA waves and the F18's WILL agree to come to some of your Hobie regattas.... or the whole effort is a waste of time. Right now the partnership thing between the NAHCA Yacht Club monopoly and the IWCA and the F18 classes is a little weak.

(Hell John Williams is saying that the F18's Class association could care less about the Hobie F18 policy)

But... if you don't get your house in order... for ****'s sake... don't whack the IWCA Waves for not coming to the havamega or 2010 events moving forward especially after all of the upset.

Truly, Mike - the Wave wasn't made to be a one-design boat, so the principles of SMOD don't really apply.

I got to be there as the IWCA was born, so I got to see how things developed. Honestly, there was no anti-Hobie sentiment involved that I can recall. There isn't much to regulate on the boat, but another example had to do with the main blocks. The class passed a minimum stack height based on the blocks supplied with the boat - it came stock 4:1 without a ratchet and some people were adding one (including me... I know, wimpy, right?). A couple of years later, Hobie Cat switched suppliers on the main blocks and went to something less expensive and with a smaller profile. The class reacted by changing the stack-height rule... which was nice, because you could get a tiny bit more rake with the newer set-up. I see that as another example of a small owners' association embracing the changes made by a manufacturer and adapting to keep things equal on the water.

Ouch. Mark, I've said nothing of the kind. I have said that the proposed policy would be of some benefit to the F18 class, really benefit the local Hobie fleets that have asked to do it, but it would be of little benefit to the Hobie national association unless you subscribe to the idea that the national association is made up of the local fleets. I am listening with interest, but I'm an outside observer. I like that Chris is taking a measured approach that is far more democratic than the class bylaws really require. I saw him in action at the meeting in Havasu - I think he's a good chairman.

Called out??? Who the hell is hiding??? I wrote it, and I stand by it.

In case your parents or friends never let you in on the secret, and you were too thick to figure it out on your own (which, judging by your typical posts, you still haven't): When you don't get your way and run home with the ball, that's probably not going to get you invited to play tomorrow.

Maybe someday your kids can explain it to you.

Mike

Brucat,
On your quote, "Anyone can sail in both classes with a stock (Hobie) sail. If that makes them uncompetitive at IWCA events, SMOD advocates would say that proves the point that SMOD is the way to an even playing field."
I think John explained it very well, with a couple of ommissions.
As everyone knows the boat was designed for beach rentals. As things wear out, no beach rental company is going to stay with all Hobie parts, i.e., tramps, sails, blocks, sheets, etc.
And many owners have bought used boats that have had replaced parts.
So, NO, the owner in the IWCA cannot race in the HCA because of the many possible changes to after market products, not just sails.

But, there are other HCA rules that IWCA can see no reason for. One of the main ones is the minimum weight. And yet at the same time try to push the boat as a Youth Class. That is just a conflict in ideas -- many kids weigh less than that.

The IWCA has done well without minimum weight. Yes the little people did go a lot faster downwind. And then the big people figured out a technique to get their weight extremely far forward and now the little people are only a little bit faster downwind.
Hmm! Then the little people wanted a hiking stick to get further forward. ETC. If the hiking stick were OKed, then we would have to have a minimum weight.

As you can see by this example, we are very much keeping the playing field so damned level it is sickening. At the North Americans last week we had 17 races.
Check this out: Really close races. Look at the bullets. Six different boats took a first place finish, with Woehrle(little guy) taking 5, I (big, fat guy) had 4, Stan Woodruff (old and senile middle sized guy) had 4, Scarpelli (Big Hockey Player) had 2, Sharon Woodruff (tiny little lady) had one, and Wright ( small to medium guy) had one.

I think the IWCA has it wired.
Rick

I would like to know what the heck the ulterior motive of people posting in a topic about a boat that they don't sail is. What's the reason? Have you ever raced a Wave in either class?

And can someone explain why the heck I would want to join a class association of a boat that I don't own. I am not going to go join the Moore 24 class and try to screw with their class rules. It seems like a giant waste of time and energy. Why shouldn't I just act as a POSITIVE force in a class that I sail in or care about, instead of being a dividing, negative force that hurts sailing as a whole?

I believe the motive should be clear, and as I said before in the other Wave thread, it's to cause trouble and should simply be ignored.

I agree with Jdub, the 2 classes can coexist, and I think it's best for all involved (at least right now) if our motivation is simply to get more boats on the water...sometimes I think that message gets shrouded in name calling and misinterpretation of forum posts.

If you're serious, Schneider, about joining the Hobie class, please accept this olive branch. Chris, put his membership on the Surf City account. I'll pay for it with the stipulation that he not act so divisively on the forums.

I wish the negativity in this thread would stop, it's not good for sailing.

J

That is pretty amazing, Rick.

That is what I thought, too.
Forgot to mention, all were Masters except Scarpelli, and he is getting close.
In fact the Masters had been set at 55, but most of the fleet is that old, so at the National Meeting last December we set the age at 60 for 2009, and are trying to get it to 65 for 2010.
Just too many old farts in this class. Yeah! Tawd, you will be ripe for this pretty soon. Ha Ha
Rick

Why can't Hobie just have a seperate iwave class at the regattas?
I personally love the idea that one can get a boat that is built by a reknown manufacturer, alter it to suit themselves, and still race and compete.
After watching American Chopper, I thought the US led the way for "custom" anything. Seems you do unless you purchased a wave.
C'mon Hobie, encourage this, you'll sell more boats and get the younger sailors back into multi's.
It makes no difference to me what you do, being an Aussie Nacra sailor, but to see all of Ricks hard work frowned upon by the "purist" manufacturer is very dissappointing, I bet since Rick has been making the conversion kits for the wave, Hobie has sold more waves.
I even considered buying one in Australia.
Anyway, I hope you can all find a solution, I'm rooting for you Rick,good on you mate.
Chocko

Point of interest: I have been in discussion regarding the Wave youth class and setting up a different min. weight for the youth as well as some potential tweaks to the platform.
I can not argue with Rick White's logic. The fact that a little guy, a not skinny guy and whatever else all ran close and made the event more fun by subtle changes in the sail or rudders is undeniable in this case. Undeniable. Wish there was somthing I could do about, but I can't. I spent more time hiding from people at HavaMega trying to give me their opinion about the Wave, F18, where to have events, how much $$ they should be given, insurance, computer fees, membership online sites, all I wanted to know is where the ****ing keg was (thanks Jeremy!! I still got the Surf City Glass!!)
F18 issue (from our perspective) will be discussed by the board on Tuesday night on a conference call I will be moderating. I am SURE you'll all hear about it by Wed. morning so stay tuned!
JW- you make me blush......

I feel ripe now! This year was rough on me.

Rick, I see your frustration, and I know your intentions are in the right place for what you truly believe is the best way to even the class. Like I said several times, there are strong supporters of SMOD, many in voting positions, that's who needs to be swayed. It does, however, completely escape me as to why you wouldn't have taken the opportunity to "be the better man" and go to Havasu anyway. Win it under "their rules" or whatever. My opinion on this is that going to HavaMega and "working the room" probably would have been far more valuable than trying to explain the position here.

Jeremy, I'm all for stopping the negativity too. I posted here not because I sail a Wave, but because our class association, of which I am an officer, gets bashed here by people who don't know how hard we work to please everyone. Not to mention, they never tire of putting words in our mouths or twisting up what they think our intentions are. It gets old. Very old.

And just so everyone knows where I stand on the Wave sails (not that I have a voting position, or a Wave in my yard): Hobie 21s had a box sail rule (for ProSail), so it's not unprecedented under HCA, and I don't see that it would hurt the attendance of Waves at HCA regattas (since there's really no where to go but up at the moment). There are other issues (sail measurement, etc.), but other sailboat classes handle this, and I'm sure we could too.

Mike

So, as I understand some folks in this thread, If I have a Prindle 16, then I can sail the Hobie 16 Nationals, a NACRA 5.2, then I can sail the Hobie 17 Nationals, NACRA 20, then I can sail the Hobie 20 Nationals, Etc. I'm confused, all of the racing classes I know of have certain rules, NASCAR won't let you bring your F-1 car to run in their events, SCCA Formula Ford won't let you run a Formula Atlantic in their races either. Rules are rules, if you want your own "Different class" cool, but don't expect everyone else to agree to buy all new equipment just because you want to. And BTW, I own a Hobie 14 Turbo that can't race in the class, I have an illegal jib, 6 to 1 Harken low profile blocks and homemade "Anti-Dive planes", all three make me Not Class Legal!!!

I understand and that's legit. My comment was more for the people NOT involved in the Wave any way...other than wanting to cause trouble. I'm not down with that.

j

Sorry, J. Saw that you had replied to my post, thought that first comment was meant for me.

Mike

But you didn't get a heap of people interested in a rental boat, and turn it into something of a cult following similar to that of the VW beetle.

Hmmm, good point, there is (was) a Formula V class!!!

To clarify some misconceptions on the Wave that are floating about in this thread...

The boat was not designed as a rental. Its concept is an entry level cat. It works really well as a rental though. That is why some here are confused about it.

Its primary market is not rental. We sell most to private parties, but we "own" the rental market!

Except for a VERY short offering of a Mylar option in the mid 90's, the factory stock sail has always been Dacron and the same pattern. Some slight production variances are being used as an excuse to claim we keep changing the shape. We have been cutting sails with a digital plotter cutter since the mid 90's, so the sails are very consistent.

The stock replacement sail is not more expensive than most of the "custom" sails being pushed.

The stock sail has shown to be competitive in IWCA racing per Rick's own comments on the subject.

The bigger rental places do use stock sails and recognize the benefit of their durability and Hobie coloring. We do sell a white rental sail, so many of those out there are also factory sails.



Racing classes are not responsible for this boats huge success in the market.

As with all of our cats... owners with racing interests have never exceeded about 10% of our market.

The best thing about a Wave is it's simplicity.

We have never pushed this boat as a racing class due to the many restrictions caused by that route. We have always reserved the right to make the boat better and easier to use. Little has actually changed, but the biggest change ever made and best thing for the recreational user was the change to the EZ Loc rudder system.

Thanks for the revelations Matt.




However, this is exactly why the HCC should just get out of the way and let serious racers take what you offer and allow it to fit their needs and expectations. If you want to evolve the boat to suit the recreation and rental market that makes perfect sense.

We can handle the "rules" side and adopt or reject your production atributes as they effect us, as racers.

JW said "I see only winners".

Hi Matt -

Isn't this a Hobie-made sail?

This was fun...

John likes the Wave because its the only boat he can make minimum weight on. The guy can crew on a 1 meter remote.

John likes the Wave because he smells the future of whats coming for all of us that keep getting a little bit older, a little fatter and a little slower, every single day. We had the discussion the other day that its pretty damn strange to be at a regatta and be one of the young guys when you're 43.

Interesting. Hobie will be in a bind, long term, if they can't find a way to bring in young blood with money.

That fits my description of:



Yeah, that is one of the VERY few Mylar ones ever made by us for the Wave

No need for Hobie Cat step out of the way, we are not "in the way". We have never tried to control what the IWCA is doing with the Wave. The thing we wouldn't allow is modification of a factory supplied charter boat.

One the other hand, we do believe in the basic premise that made the Hobie Class Association what it was, and is. One Design, Class or Brand only style regattas worked very well and still have their place.

Personally, I'll be very, very old before I start racing a plastic boat (this is assuming Hobie only will remain the mainstay in our region, and the H16 class doesn't die off)


Recind the comp-tip rule, allow younger & newbie sailors to race B fleet on the old "starter" (cheap!) 16's. If you want to race A fleet, then you have to play by all the rules (i.e. comp-tip). There needs to be a two-crew entry level racing boat, in addition to the Wave.

Tough liability issue to remove a protection.

Idea though... the Class has a TON of available funds that could go to helping support conversions for entry level racers. There would be restrictions and membership requirememnts I'm sure.

Eaton, you don't even remember being 43.
You talk pretty tough, but I am pretty sure you'd have a good time on starting line with a shitpot of Waves.

Comptip masts are getting easier and easier to buy on the secondary and there just aren't that many boats out there (ebay, beachcats, here, craigslist...) that don't have them.

So why not have an IWCA races in addition to your hobie wave races at HCA regattas? they are Hobies after all yes?
I can't see why, if they have as big a following, and mostly thanks to Ricks work with them, then why aren't they sanctioned at Hobie events?

Allowing a wave to race IWCA rules ie aftermarket sails at a hobie event would be like bringint an Infusion to a Nacra event with Aftermarket sails.

Can I race an N-20 in class with custom sails?

I'd assume there are issues with IHCA class rules, bylaws and such, but this (IWCA) is mostly a south east regional group. Maybe it can be handled on a division level?

I guess you can look at the Wave and the N20 in the same way and argue that the sacrifice that may or not be made may or may not benefit the community as a whole, but I think that would be looking at it (Wave) too hard. The N20 is a fine tuned racing machine, the Wave is not. Kinda like comparing Super Modified Stock Cars and those busses that pull the boats and do the figure 8 track. Sure, they are all still racing, but come on.

[quote]
Interesting. Hobie will be in a bind, long term, if they can't find a way to bring in young blood with money. [/quote

HOBIE!!?

Dude... we are all in this boat together..... it's on fire... the shore is 1000 meters away and the ONLY solution is to paddle in the SAME DIRECTION together.

Sailing catamarans won't go away.... Builders won't go away... The opportunity to race your catamaran is going away bit by bit as we age and attendance drops off.

The goal needs to be... how do you introduce non sailors and sailors to racing and what is the level of racing that gets them into the sport.

The BUILDERS should not be tagged here..

Racing is a social thing and we are in the boat along with builders who also race boats and we need to solve the problem and paddle faster and more efficiently.

I have zero patience for dithering or policies that get in the way of everyone in the boat rowing in the same direction or those that say... "ah... I want my own boat because you other guys are ...... fill in the blank..."

STOP THE ****ing PRESSES!!! I agree with what Mark JUST SAID! I know, I don't believe it either.

The problem is when anyone is left out. It can be for a sail or a brand of boat or what ever. We do not have the numbers to leave any one out.This is the reason division 9 is out of the hobie mix.

Ah... I will have to save this post.... I might come in handy in the future

Well said Mark

It's all about the fun for me. Thats why we still do a monthly fun sail where everyone is welcome.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=830551&id=1017502056

If the youngest competitor at a regatta is 43 then the current paddling effort is not working.

If the young blood, with money, is not found and developed then the builders will go away. If the builders want to sell boats then the have to be involved. Otherwise, they will be tagged as in game over.

An example of a growing class is the Open Bic. They offer significant discounts to junior sailing programs. It can be almost a third off of retail depending on quantity purchased. That's pretty good builder support.

Couple things: This has little to do with our manufacturer and you have to believe me when I say that they are not impeding the HCA and any way. They have their interest and I think we (HCA-NA) is respectful of that. Discount from the manufacturer are not necessary when there is so much on the secondary you couldn't possible buy it all up.

Hobie 1616: Did you know that John Hanson's son lives 3 blocks from me on Clear Lake?

Now you get the problem..

Paddling faster? ... here's an idea

do they have any Wave Rental places on Maui or any of the resort beaches?

First race anyone ever does is chase a boat just like yours off the beach out to the marker etc.

How about getting a group to charter those waves for three hours and chase each other... soon it will be organized racing...

I believe that is certainly in order. You own the boats...you say what can or can't be done with them. Makes perfect sense. But that aside, are you saying if I had brought my own boat and ICWA sail, I would have been welcome at HavaMega?

That apparently wasn't made clear Matt.



I agree with that too. However, the KEY WORD here is WAS.

As expressed in the preceeding love fest, times they are a changin'.

I believe the ideal solution for the Wave "problem" is for HCA sanctioned events to have an IWCA class within the overall fleet and for IWCA sanctioned events to have an HCA class within their fleet. It would be the same as the Seniors (which is actually a redundant class ), Juniors, Ladies, Gerbils, whatever. All would race together and awards would be made accordingly. I think we can afford a few more trophies.

I believe there's a few Waves and one beater Getaway in West Maui. The only problem is the rental guys want $150 an hour. Some won't let a boat go out without one of their people on board.

So... what's it cost to store a boat on the islands?

Make the guy a deal... you will charter the lot on an afternoon when they almost certainly don't rent boats for 25% of retail for 6 weeks.... get the newbies and go chasing.

As I said...it's a paddle and the boat is getting warm. If you pull it off with 6 people under 30... I will send you a case of your favorite!

It depends and I don't mean the diaper.

Big enough garage - Free
Big enough yard that isn't overseen by a Nazi homeowners association - Free
Keep on the beach - Risk having it stripped by locals who think anything without the owner around is ripe for "salvage."
Keep on the beach II - Either dragged off or fire bombed by irate home/condo owner who claims you're blocking his view.
Boat yard at downwind launch ramp - $400/month, risk having meth users that live in the grave yard next door strip boat for next fix.

There is a slim possibility of getting a beach sailing center at a new park at Airport Beach (formerly Prindle Beach). Problem is the wind mostly blows like stink which limits use by noobs.



I can, and do do that now with the Sabots and Bics. If the tide is up and the wave action is mild, we'll take the kids over the reef off the Lahaina Town front and race around the moored boats.

Does 30 kids under 15 count? We fill up two classes every June and July and have a waiting list. I like Bailey's.

Confirm comments by Hobie1616. West Maui is not a place to have people sail without good supervision. Rented a wind surfer years ago, and was lucky to have a jet ski get me back to shore, when I was trapped by an offshore breeze, and in trouble. The local rental at the resort did not help, as I was not on one of their board. Last year a guy with kayak rental was going to have cat rentals at "Prindle Beach" but could not get a permit to expand his program to catamarans. Similar problems all over Maui. Not enough business to have adequate support, and weather can come up quickly. kayak and standup boards do a good business, and can be controlled.

Caleb

Mark, with all due respect, it is not up to Hobie Cat Co. or any Association. It is up to us. We must each work with what we have to grow the sailing programs. Some examples. Check the results for our Wave Class at www.sailsandpoint.org All Wave sailors were under 20. At the HAVAMEGA at Lake Havasu, twenty two Div 4. sailors from the Northwest made the 1,400 mile trip down to race. Six sailors were in their early 20's or younger. Our teams took 2nd in H-17, and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the Tigers. We brought back two of the Event Waves to add to our fleet at Sail Sand Point. Tomorrow, we will have our Div. 4 AGM at the Sand Point Board room. The discussion on the Tiger, F-18 and Wild Cat has been an extensive Email exchange with over 30 messages to guide our Division on this critical issue.

We all need to step up and take part to grow our sport.

Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point Board
Hobie Fleet 95, Div. 4
US SAILING Multihull Council, and Youth Multihull Championship Comm.
H-17 # 6446

John, if this "issue...came up years ago" then there was an apparent issue. The problem was not with two classes but with hostile separation of the classes; it appears that there must have been two potential strong opinions. Solution might have been proactive attempts by US Sailing to get cooperation or, better, some coordination.


Conversions, sounds interesting.

I would love to live 15 minutes from the water where the wind blows a constant 10 knots or more. I would love to spend all my spare time on the water sharpening my sailing skills... I don't, I can't. IF the wind were always good, I imagine the waters around here would be constantly overloaded with sailing AND the number of friendly locations for sailing would be higher in number. Lucky if you do live there. Most don't. In addition, I -- as are many who own boats -- am just average income bracket.

Because of all this, many look around for a group to sail with who own similar boats. (I have a Wave.) What is available are classes of racers in some confusing argument. My suggestion is NOT JUST to sponsor more B level racing, distance races, or big social events if that's your thing. It is to decide what you want to communicate before it happens.

Come to West Maui brah. The wind is consistent at 23 knots. If you get in trouble it'll blow you to Lanai where the friendly natives will transport you to one of the two Four Seasons Hotels to recuperate and wait for the ferry back to Maui.

This would be a fantastic way to use our available funds!

Thanks Bob

I ain't buying the it's a regional thing Chris...we didn't have a local Hobie dealer for 15 years! Consequently, the majority of boats (in this area) are pre-'86 models and I rarely see a boat newer than that. Still a ton of post '79 boats around here that are just built like tanks, and will never die. At best, I see about one-third of these usable boats have been retro-fitted.

Get with your Division Chair and put together a proposal then get it to Commodore Wessels and see what he thinks. My personal opinion is that something like this would work great if it was done right.

So you want the class association to buy comptips for everyone? Is that it? How about mast bobs too?
John (Mr Ebay lurker) you know damn well there has been at least 5 Hobie 16 comptip mast for sale in the last month.

I have two. Drop me a PM.

Is there really a shortage of comptip masts out there? Is that why youth aren't racing, the cost of a comptip?

I have a hard time believing that.

I have 2 extra comptip masts sitting in the yard, that I would gladly donate to a youth sailor. I have a complete 1984 redline that I will donate to any youth sailor in my division that wants to race. And for any youth in the country that wants to race a 16 and absolutely can not find a comptip mast, I've got an extra comptip that got a little banged up during shipping that I will donate, you pay shipping. Have your division chair write a letter of necessity to me and it's yours. Youth only. For racing only.

jeremy at surfcitycatamarans.com

I've been wrong before, but I don't think there is a shortage of race legal masts. If it is truly an issue, I'm sure the factory and your local dealer would offer a substantial discount to a youth sailor that wants to purchase an comptip outright.

j

If there are people who are not racing because they don't want to cough up the money for a comptip, I say hell yea let's help them pay for it or find one for them. It's classic drug dealer marketing. Get them hooked first worry about making them pay for it later.

OK, how about this...

My son can't race because I can't afford the time off work to take him to regattas. How about if the class sends me money equivalent to 2 days work every month and I will make sure he races regularly!

I don't need a comptip but why should it matter what the money is spent on as long as the outcome is the same?

Obviously a tongue in cheek arguement. However, maybe Obama would give me stimulus money to heat up the slowing sailing market? All of this seems foolish, no?

Hey, Sailing is a Green Sport, add to that the fact that it promotes enviromental education to our young people, and creates American Jobs, there must be a Multi Billion Dollar Grant in there somewhere, all we have to do is "sell it". I'd much rather see my tax dollars spent on that than the AIG CEO's Bonus!

Cough, cough, good one. Sorry to burst your bubble, but sailing is far from green. Building the boat and maintaining it cost a lot. Resin, carbon fiber, glass fiber, mylar, aluminium, dyneema, polyester, even dacron and your trampoline are all costing quite a lot in fossil fuels.

It is not a direct use like jet skis or motorboats, but it is far from being neutral impact.

It's depressing really.

Add to that the sailors behavior: I'm doing safety at my sailing club regularly and you won't believe how many water bottle, pieces of line and other rubbish we find on the side of our reservoir all thrown away by sailors as there is no other user of the space...

I know the CompTip issue pops up every now and then and I respect all the verbiage expounded in previous threads over the years.

However, from a strict liability side, I can't believe that HCC lawyers still think that they are less exposed to litigation from literally thousands of third, fourth and fifth generation metal mast Hobie owners, than those who might race.

They apparently felt that they had done diligence in their responsibility to owners of the older boats years ago when they cancelled the gratis upgrade program. Since there haven't been a multitude of those boat owners frying themselves, not to mention the same scenario for owners of other brands of sailboats, it really seems that HCC should step up and provide CompTips to wannabe racers who don't have the "golden" part if they want to cling to their ban.

Otherwise, drop the exclusion and add to the rules that only boats delivered without a CompTip may use a metal one. That would prevent someone with a newer boat from fitting an old mast for a perceived advantage. And...God knows that those old boats will be hopelessly uncompetive anyway.

Of course this goes against the Hobie Doctrine which is virtually cast in stone.

It doesn't make sense for HCA-NA to have to pay for this, even if they have all this money to spend.

In fact, I don't think Hobies from outside North America have to have CompTips, do they?

Also, I think if you want the old boats to come out (doubt if HCC would be thrilled about that either) then they might need separate class or a class within the fleet to make it interesting. Not unlike the Wave option of two classes within one fleet, if we were to get to that point.

Still, this is a worthy discussion. Just my point of view though.

Hey Pepin, shhhh! Don't tell anyone about the -nasty- stuff that goes on in the factory! Most Americans (especially those in our Government)are beyond stupid especially in the sciences, they have no idea what goes into making a sailboat, so don't you go telling them!

They think Green means no gasoline, don't go and spoil it for them and the rest of us!

;^)

Well if you’re going to take that attitude then why bother with youth grants. Those little turds should pay their own way. (Obviously tong in cheek as well.)

Anyway maybe it’s a solution to a non-problem but we do need more people working on real solutions to our present challenges.

Are you a Goth?

OK, how about this. At Sail Sand Point in Seattle www.sailsandpoint.org we have six Waves, and six H-16's, with comptips, all available for Youths to sail in local regatta's at no charge.
Caleb Tarleton

[quote=Timbo
Hey Pepin, shhhh! Don't tell anyone about the -nasty- stuff that goes on in the factory! Most Americans (especially those in our Government)are beyond stupid especially in the sciences, they have no idea what goes into making a sailboat, so don't you go telling them!

They think Green means no gasoline, don't go and spoil it for them and the rest of us!

;^) [/quote]

Oh! Yes the Government does know what's going on at the factory!

As a former environmental regulator of RCRA Rules (the federal hazardous waste regulations), the fiberglass industry produces all sorts of hazardous waste. Examples: Codes D001-Ignitable waste; D001-Oxidizing wastes,such as MEKP; F003-Acetone solvent wastes; F005-Methyl Ethyl Ketone solvent wastes; F003 & F005-hazardous stillbottoms from the distillation of hazardous solvents; D007 & D008-paint booth filters and other paint wastes containing TCLP heavy metals; D008-Metallic Lead, not being recycled as scrap metal, If they are doing anodizing or other metal treatment, there is more I could list. Carbon composite pre-cursers are even more to list.-That's what was making the employees sick, at the factory that makes the plastic Stealth aircraft.

So is that why the manufacturing is being sent to China? No EPA rules? Or is it their cheaper labor, or both?

Oh, and in my quote about Americans being stupid on the the sciences, I should have been more specific, I should have said "American Politicians".

All those laws/rules explain why Clark Foam shut down.

A random collection of thoughts on the posts over the weekend:

As for the notion that the main reason for IWCA sails becoming open was to standardize the quality of the sails, that doesn’t jive with the concept of adapting the cuts for crew weight. Those are two VERY different goals.

So, are those Hobie-made Mylar sails worth more money now as collector’s items? Matt B, do you have one buried in your pile of other obscure Hobie objects of days gone by?

For those of you who keep asking, we really don’t want to fragment the boats. Having two separate Wave classes at a regatta is like having Hobie 18 and Hobie 18 Magnums. Just dwindles the class sizes, and fewer people show up after a while.

Jack, no one answered your HavaMega question here, but if you search through the other post, it's been answered. The OA decided to not allow IWCA sails. I don't know whether stock sails would have been available for rent, but my sense is that it wouldn't have changed the end result once that decision was made.

H16 comptips and Youth: Let’s make this even easier. If a Youth team wants to race with a pre-comptip boat, let’s let them do it for a year. If they want to stick with it, let’s find them a newer boat that might actually be competitive, and maybe have a grant program to help them buy the newer boat.

I don't think we'd be doing anyone a favor by getting a comptip on an early 80s boat. They’ll most likely be needing to buy a tramp, sails and probably rudders anyway. By the time you add all of that to the cost of one of those boats, you could have something that’s less than 10 years old, with a comptip and in much better overall shape.

Mike

Those are indeed too different goals, and as a Wave newbee I may be wrong but there was not an attempt to standardize quality so much as the ability to choose a sail that fits your need and to have recourse against the maker if something is wrong with the quality. That way you don't have to buy 2 or 3 sails before you get a good one (hopefully).




My plan would have both classes racing in one race, with all boats eligible for overall rankings and a separate set of awards for the lesser boats. That shouldn't "fragment the boats".



I have a perfectly good Hobie sail that is brand new. My question was retorical. BTW, I do intend to race at MWE as a legal Wave, should the IWCA deal not materialize. Ditto for the Mega in MS next year.

You have both sails, you're an HCA member, but your name isn't in the HavaMega results.

What point were you trying to make with the rhetorical questions about this event?

Mike

<<<Originally Posted By: mmillerThe thing we wouldn't allow is modification of a factory supplied charter boat.>>>

My response:

I believe that is certainly in order. You own the boats...you say what can or can't be done with them. Makes perfect sense. But that aside, are you saying if I had brought my own boat and ICWA sail, I would have been welcome at HavaMega?>>>

Matt stated that the factory supplied boats could not be modified. I asked whether personal boats meeting IWCA standards would have been allowed to race.

My belief is that my North sail would not have been permitted, even though Matt seems to imply that only the rental boats needed to comply with HCA Wave rules.

Just looking for clarity Mike.

Well, it's all here.

HCA said let's allow IWCA sails. HCC said OK, but not on the chartered boats. OA said, OK this is too much to manage, so no IWCA sails at all.

So, at the time HCC said no IWCA sails on the charter boats, IWCA would have been allowed on BYOB boats.

Not sure how it matters, am I still missing something?

Mike

We were going to use (adapt) IWCA rules for HavaMega (as we DID for MWE) and it was all good until the International Rules committee got wind and it got to be a stinkfest of redtaped BS so Gordo (at my suggestion) pulled the plug on it so that we didnt use up our 'Get out of Jail Free Card' on a Wave regatta that might have attracted 3-4 IWCA boats(as pre-registration indicated). We hope to find another time to play the card when there will be some serious support from the IWCA. THEN it would be worth the red tape (from my perspcetive)
Hope that clears it up a little.
Jack, see you in Mississippi, looking forward to getting my little girl out again and bumping heads with some Wave guys/girls.

Yeah, I knew there was more BS in the middle, wasn't trying to hang Gordo out there, just tried to give the Reader's Digest version.

I still want to know where Jack is digging, all of this has been discussed ad nauseum here...

Mike

That sounds great. I plan to make the event. I would use my stock sail if everyone else did, but my preference would be to have Waves of all colors invited. I still feel strongly that the stock boats should be given recognition and will push for that at IWCA events.

Gordo and I talked for a long time on this and we knew we'd create a huge shitstorm when we did this, but at least we feel we can make this arangment for an adoption of IWCA rules possibly at another date if it works into their schedule and we'd be able to pull some serious numbers. Gordo was not at all to blame, as I was the one yanking his chains on this. Jack is not digging, he's just making sure he knows the score.

Mike,

Why do you think I am "digging"?

You seem to be the one that won't let it go. I am simply asking a question for clarity.

No need to respond.

Believe me, I'm not hanging onto anything. I think I may have confused you with someone else, sorry about that. Since a lot of this info was already covered here, it seemed suspicious to have it brought up again. Seems whenever we provide info, especially on this topic, we get ripped apart by a hidden agenda.

Bygones...

Mike

Has anyone read this? Saving Sailing

Unless of course those youth happen to accidentally drag their boat into a powerline, then there might be some value in requiring the comptip.

sm

You might want to talk to Rob Whittington, who at the age of 6 lost his mother, a very experienced Hobie 16 crew, to a mast hitting a power line in a Texas parking lot. I think he might find some value in a Comptip.

How many serious numbers need to be pulled for Miss. next June??? to "TRY" and adaption to run the IWCA sails??? Patrick BlackCat Racing Hobie Wave #11 IWCA

I am hearing the sarcasm in your post, but I am also hearing you loud and clear.
I would think it would be easier to get our rules committee to bend a bit if there were a substantial number of boats. What can you round up? BTW: I like that name BlackCat Racing. Pretty cool.

The main reason the internet will never replace face to face meetings. I am a bad speller, even worse writer , but not being sarcastic at all.
I am truely sorry to have missed Havemega and was planning on making it. If I remember right about 6 that I talked to were wanting to go. I personally would like to learn from Havemega and see if it could happen again. Not sure of the proper regatta name, but Miss. in June is something I was hoping to go to and would if I could. Maybe another try from both sides and with any luck we could have a win win situation.
I like my Hobie Wave, I like my North sail and I love the competion the combination produces.
Thanks about the name. I like it also.

Patrick, Hobie Wave Racer.

Sorry, Would shoot for a goal of 8 to 10 boats.. Possibly a couple more for inexpensive charter (With aftermarket sails if someone wanted to see the difference?) Whatever would work.

Chris, meet Patrick Green. One of the fastest guys alive on a Wave. Patrick, meet Chris Wessels, the Chair of the Hobie Class Association of North America. You guys have something in common that forms an excellent foundation for future discussion.

Now that Patrick has climbed on board, maybe we can get somewhere. It seems we are all dedicated cat sailors separated by a quirkey little Clorox bottle with a rag attached to it.

See ya next week Patrick.

My point exactly. The whole reason for the comptip is to provide an added SAFETY feature. Now we're going to say that it's ok to recind that safety requirement to YOUTH sailors? Hey, while we're at it, why not delete the lifejacket requirement for youth too since lifejackets are another added expense.

sm

Point well taken, that's not at all what I meant.

I don't have a problem with the comptip rule, and don't want to see anyone in MORE danger, but let's face it, Hobies are not the only beach cats, but are the only ones with comptips (oh yeah, before someone else brings it up, except for Tigers).

If the point is simply to lower the bar to get more Youths sailing, we may need to be creative.

I don't like the idea of spending money to upgrade old boats, if for no other reason than you're upgrading someone's personal property, and you may never see them again.

How's this for an idea: Create a pool of Youth boats within each Division, get some double-stack trailers and have fleet commodores, youth leaders, etc. bring them to the regattas with their boats. Any youth that we can get to the water will then have a boat to use.

Mike

Hi Patrick! I am a HUGE fan of yours and enjoy reading about the regular beatdown you throw on all the other Wave guys.
Lets see if I can survive this F18 issue tonight then I'll figure out a new way to piss off the other half of the sailing world.

Thank you so much. I would just like to see the boat numbers at wave regattas grow. It is such a diverse boat and very accepting from beginner to advanced. Not the fastest or most advanced but one with many advantages. One of the great things about it is the close racing. Last year at Nationals there were 14 boats fighting to get around C mark at the same time. That is three legs into a five leg race. I know this because I was boat #14 The Masters bring so much knowledge and you cannot help but learn how to be a better sailor. This is why I think it would be an excellent boat for beginners.
Looking forward to seeing what will happen in the future, enjoying the present, and would like to use this platform to personally thank Rick White for starting this class. No matter what happens between IWCA and HCA he took a boat, made a class, brought it to my back door and got me into racing catamarans. I will always be grateful for that because it is my passion. I know sailors from IWCA, HCA, and even Hobie Corp. share this passion. My hope is that we can all sail together somehow and you have my support and help to make it happen.
Patrick.. BlackCat Racing. Hobie wave #11

Patrick wasn't present when the IWCA was started. And believe me, it was not Rick White that started the class.
Actually, it was more like Dan and Kathy Kulkoski, Chip and Barb Short, Bob Curry, and several others.
They just asked if I would be the "Puppet" and they would do everything.
That group is still very active in the class, but I guess I outgrew my puppethood, took the strings and started running on my own.., sort of like Pinochio, except I try not to tell lies. My nose has not grown much over the past years.
And now I really believe we have the most active class in the country.., and growing.
Thanks to folks like Patrick and Skip Kaub, Stan Woodruff, Jack Woehrle, Steve Abbey, Mark Scarpelli, Scot Hubel, Jon Britt, and whole host of others that have stepped up and have helped the class grow.

At any rate, I wanted to be sure you understood that this is not "Rick's Class" as Matt Bounds like to profess. I am merely a puppet for a group that really loves to sail competitively and inexpensively.
Rick

"Patrick wasn't present when the IWCA was started. And believe me, it was not Rick White that started the class.
Actually, it was more like Dan and Kathy Kulkoski, Chip and Barb Short, Bob Curry, and several others.
Thanks to folks like Patrick and Skip Kaub, Stan Woodruff, Jack Woehrle, Steve Abbey, Mark Scarpelli, Scot Hubel, Jon Britt, Betty and Dick Bliss, and whole host of others that have stepped up and have helped the class grow".

Sorry for misunderstanding Rick and did not mean to mud things up. I was not there when it started and do not know the full history of how it began. I am no less thankful for all the people listed and the many who are not. It was Rick and Mary whom I raced with for the very first time on that hot windless day in the Bay and afterward drinking a cold beer with them I thought this is what I want to pursue. I then talk a friend into it (was not hard) and he invited a friend and so on. Which brings me back to the point of, if we can find a way in which to bring the IWCA and HCA and Hobie Corp. together all of the aft mention people and many new will benefit.
I am going to shut up now and go enjoy and be thankful with my family this weekend.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone. Eat lots so I can have a weight advantage.

This is why the Wave is the perfect boat or second boat.

Patrick started without any baggage and shortly was kickn' butt. The wiley old timers struggle in spite of "age and trechery".

It is the perfect "first" boat and the perfect "last" boat at the same time.

Amen, and another thing to be thankful for tomorrow.
Rick

I have heard people mention rudders before, but I don't know of any Waves that do not use stock Hobie rudders and rudder systems.

I was referring to the use of the racing rudders or EPO2s instead of the stock ones.

Aren't those made by Hobie Cat Company??

They are, but they aren't "stock". They also cannot be used with the newer EZ-Loc rudder system that comes on the current Waves.

Right, but most Wave racers use the original rudder system; and I assume that if Hobie Cat Company makes and sells EPO rudders, they intend for people to buy and use them. Or is that something that HCA does not allow?

The inconsistant part of this is that HCA/HCC allow the EPOs on all of the Hobie racing classes except the Waves.

The EPOs fit perfectly in the older housings which are the same as H17, 18, 20. In fact, I think they could be notched to fit the easy-lock system without too much trouble.

The reason I converted was that both of the plastic rudders that came with my Wave were hooked to the right. The boat had weather helm on one tack and lee helm on the other. EPOs corrected that.

It defies logic that there is a different rule for Waves than the other Hobies.

The language in the IHCA rules for all the boats (with the exception of the 14 and 16) states:


So . . . technically, EPO's are not allowed on the 17 and 18, either, although every racer I know uses them.

And modifying them to fit the EZ-Loc system isn't legal either.

(The 14 and 16 have allowed aftermarket rudders since the early '70s, when racers demanded a better blade than the ABS ones originally produced for the 14.)

The EPO rudders I am presently using were sold to me "stock" on my old Hobie 18. The 18 is gone, but the EPO rudders stayed and are proudly on my Wave. So, my Wave must be STOCK since they were sold with a Hobie boat.

Considering these crazy rules that favor the 16 (and one might note that all the rules for all the classes are determined at the National Meeting, held during the H16 Nationals -- perhaps the reason for the demise of the TheMightyHobie18, once my favorite boat) you are referring to Matt, good heavens, isn't it obvious why the IWCA is where it is.

Matt,

Let's make sure we are comparing "apples to apples" ... "oranges to oranges".

My 1984' H18SE was purchased from the factory and sold to me by my local dealer w/ "black" "EPO" rudders .... so I believe my rudder blades are "class legal".

Are you refering to the new "EPOV2" blades that are currently availible from Hobie???

Also note the origonal date of my TheMightyHobie18's manufacture ... that means my boat came from the factory w/ the "old" TheMightyHobie18 Rudder Assmblies. The rudder assemblies where "updated" under the Hobie Cat Co's program of installing a "new" H17/TheMightyHobie18 retro-fit kit in 1987-88 ..... and that is considered "class legal". And how about the H16 Rudder Assemblies and guegeons ...... they are not the same as origonally supplied in the 1970's are they?????

After the stock of "origonal" EPO's was depleted, the rudders next supplied as origonal equipment/replacement parts were ..... (there is no "polite" way to say this) PURE JUNK!!!! the white ones ... the black plastic ones .... JUNK, JUNK, JUNK!!!!!

Let's review the language in Rules 1.1 and 1.2 as you maybe defining the rule alittle to tightly .... IMHO

1.1: Rudder Blades and assemblies shall be stock as supplied by Hobie Cat Co. Hmmmmmmmmm ..... Are not the rudder casings and rudder blades purchsed through and supplied by "Hobie Cat Co"???? There is no mention in the rule: of as supplied "origonally" on the boat when sold by Hobie Cat Co.

1.2: Hobie Cat Co rudder assemblies and blades shall not be modified except minimum filing to improve fit and function. .... Hmmmmmmm .... Who gets to define "minimum" ... are there any "minimum" measurements/dimensions defined????? As I read that rule I'm allowed to fit or improve function of any blade or assembly (as supplied by Hobie Cat Co) w/ a minimum of filing. I would additionally argue that each installation is unique due to the variations due to "Mass-Production" techniques used by the Hobie Cat Co, therefore the "Minimum" filing requiered varies from boat to boat.

So what course of action would you recommend since: the origonal EPO's are no longer availible, the plastic rudder blades are un-acceptable because of performance issues, and class rules effectively outlaw the use of "EPOV2's on H17's, TheMightyHobie18's and Waves in your opinion ..... but are OK for use on H16'???

Harry Murphey

PS: You have an E-Mail in your Inbox from Div11 Yahoo Group ..... Key Words are: ... Div11 Youth Sailors ... RHYC ... invited ... Junior Olympics ... July 9-11th, 2010. !!!!!PLEASE READ!!!!!

It should also be in Chris's Inbox ....

We have some work to do .....

Rick,

The National HCA Meeting is not always held at the H16NA's .... the large majority over the years have been ... but not always. For example, this year it was just held at the "HavaMega" two weeks ago. .... where they tried to discuss the issue of all F18's being allowed to attend "Hobie Regatta's" as proposed by Rob Jerry to compete w/ the Tigers and Wildcats thereby increasing the number of F18 competitors .... I believe it's still under discussion ...


Harry Murphey

The Hobie Class rules are not determined by the HCA-NA at all - certainly not at our AGM.

The 14, 16, 17, 18 and Tiger are ISAF International Classes. ISAF has the final say on any rule changes.

The HCA-NA may recommend a rule change.
It then goes to the IHCA Rules Committee (made up of 1 representative of HCC-USA, 1 from Hobie Cat Europe, 1 Alter Family rep (currently Jeff Alter), and two at-large members (Mal Gray from AUS and Erik Olsen from DEN)

The Rules Committee will publish the proposed wording for comment. After receiving comments, the Rules Committee will pass their recommendation (approve / disapprove) to the IHCA Council.

The IHCA Council will vote on the proposed change.

If approved, the change will be recommended to ISAF, who has final say on the International Classes.

As I mentioned before, the 14 and 16 have different rudder rules than all the other classes.

It was not "preferential treatment" for the 14 and 16. It was because the original ABS rudders, made for the 14, proved inadequate for the stress of the 16's platform. Therefore, the rules were changed in the early '70s (before any of the other Hobie Cats were introduced) to allow aftermarket rudders:


If you look at the any of the 30 or so definitions of "stock", none of them really covers what the word means in the context of the rules for all the other boats.

Does it mean "supplied originally with the boat"? or "supplied by Hobie Cat Company [out of their stock]"?

It's a poorly worded rule.

The question wasn't directed to me but the answer is simple. Send a request for a rule change to the HCA Chair. Make sure you have the support of your class first. If it's on the up and up (fairly simple in this case) the Chair will forward your request to the IHCA rules committee who will deal with your request.

The Hobie 20 guys did it a few years ago and can now choose between the stock Hobie 20 rudder and an EPO 2.

I’m sure the intent for all the rules has always been that parts and equipment are class specific. You can’t put an 18 rig on a 16, even though they are both factory supplied items. In fact, there are certain items that they factory supplies for a particular class as a option that are not class legal for racing, such as jib batten hinges.

So…I agree with Matt that in the strictest sense, unless the class rules specifically address an item, it is not permitted. In the case of the H14 and H16 rudders, there is a written rule.

The H17, 18, 20 and Wave would not, in my mind be permitted to use any rudder that was never supplied by the factory for that particular model. The H20s have that letter but I think it is only an opinion, not actually a rule.

However, at this point in time, if the H17, 18 and 20s have been using the EPOs without protest, then you can make the assumption that there has been de facto acceptance without a written rule.

Carrying this to the same conclusion, I think we are on solid ground to do the same with the Waves.

We all agree that the rule is poorly written.

To deny Waves the same treatment as the H17, 18 and 20 might bring down a house of cards that I’m sure no one wants to see happen.

Clearly, an across the board written rule revision to address this oversight is the best long range solution. The 14/16 definition would make the most sense since all these boats use the exact same rudder shape and size. Only the materials are different. In the meantime actual precedent says that racers of all stripes are using the EPOs and we should agree to leave it at that until such a change comes to be.

I think it was cw (last Winter) that brought up the idea of a proposal to "allow" glass rudders on the Wave.

Here's my take on this proposal. We talk to a newbie sailor, invite him to a regatta, he shows up with his spanking new boat and EZ Lock rudders. He rolls around the course for the weekend and finishes last. To be expected say you? Just needs more experience, a few more races under the belt? Here's the rub (and I'd almost GUARANTEE it will happen), somebody's going to walk up to him and say
"You know...If you want to be competitive on that boat...you're going to need 18 rudder castings and some EPO's"
"Yeah? How much that gonna cost?"
"New? 'bout $800"

True or not, this guy may never come back.

Same frickin' thing that will happen to the newbie with his '85 H16 he just picked up for $900. After he rolls around finishing last some joker's going to make a point of walking up and saying
"You know, the rules require you to have a comp-tip on your mast"
"Yeah? How much that gonna cost?"

I don't disagree but the rudders are not why he was last.

I think that is a reasonable risk we take whenever we get new folks to participate in any sport. Some will go away saying it isn't worth the extra effort and others will take the challenge like Patrick Green did. I would prefer to race (and get my butt kicked) with Patrick Green on a boat that handles nicely, than beat 20 wankers on "stock" boats, none of which are exactly the same.

I don't think it is healthy to dumb the fleet to the lowest denominator. An optimized platform within reach of the new guy, and that is very ridgidly administered makes more sense.

Some of you keep bringing up the fact that HCC never intended the Wave to be a racer. That is an absolute truth. As such, why is there any resistance to the IWCA version , as the official "Race Wave"? I'm not sure why we are even debating this.

No offense intended toward the "wankers", BTW.

Hello all Wave/Hobie sailors and racers,

I have read most of this post and I see both sides. I grew up racing Prindle 16 and such from a very young age. The class was a semi open class. Open to any sail and sail maker as long as it measured in and any tramp maker/design as long as the boat weighed in. It did bring in professional sailors like Rick and the other professional sail makers. That always leads to a higher caliber of racing as each pro trys to win and sell more stuff.

It also has the possibility of turning off new sailors, but that was always addressed with "B" fleet, "C" fleet... Everyone has a chance to go home a "winner".

The bigger issue is that the Prindle class is dead and gone, but the Hobie class and many of the original boats live on. A big part of that is strict one design racing. All boats, new or old are in theory are equal. All of these classes have allowed changes over the years, but the changes are slow evolution, not lock stock and barrel changes.

The problem as I see it starts with the fact that the Wave was never intended to be a "racing" class boat. Changes at the factory either held cost, or made the boat better for the recreational sailor. That you all have made it such is cool. That you have also agreed to a set of rules and some open changes is understandable. What you may not see is that without your direct support (read this as money and purchases) there is no reason for the producing factory to support your efforts. It has to go both ways. Just as supporting your local dealer is key to keeping the local source open, supporting your manufacturing facility is also key.



I used to race Aqua Cats. They had really terrible dagger boards and rudders. We all used them. Some tried making better boards and blades. That was ruled and unfair advantage so we all sailed the ineffective blades. There were better options, but we all thought the level playing field was more important than pointing or speed.

I hope next time Hobie steps up to support the class by providing charter boats, that the class steps up to support that effort. It will be good for both sides in both the short and long term.

I did sail at HavaMega and dispite the no wind venue I had a great time. I am sure that you would have had a great time too.

Mike Hammond

While all this may or may not be true, no matter what class you are in you are going to need good equipment to be at the top. If everyone is using a comp tip you might need one also. But the fact of the matter is even if it is a stock sail you will probably need a new one and not the blown out one you received with the boat. I am willing to guess by the number of slightly used sails out there that most of the successful sailors are using crisp sails for there attempt to win big regattas, stock or custom.
The nice thing about the Wave is I can see no other part besides the sail and the rudders that will help this simple boat go faster. Weight seems to be no factor as races are won with 100 pound differences with the drivers.
When all is said and done I have around 2200 dollars into my boat which is as competitive as any out there and I am sure I could sell it for more tomorrow. You could spend more than that on a pair of skis per season. Its all relative. Sports cost money and the Wave class is pretty inexspensive.

Patrick Green

Wow, This thread has gotten surreal.. especially in context of the ISAF meeting report on the fate of catamaran racing. After reading this thread I expect that .. ISAF will want their fee for each individual boat plaque for the ISAF Wave sailor.

It's been my observation that in the last 15 years of regattas on the Chesapeake... Close proximity to Washington DC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Annapolis and the Tidewater area... Maybe 10 million people? Regatta organizers have fielded about 3 inquires about Wave Racing... I haven't seen one show up yet... much less three to race.

The recreational sailing beaches of old are empty. Even if a Wave sailor trailer in to rig and go sailing... they are unlikely to see another Wave on the water...

So... HOW are you going to get a racing class when you can't even get the basics of one boat chasing another off the beach?

I think you need a very different model of how to grow this class other then invitations to major weekend regattas using a IWCA or NAHCA rule set). IMO... it is irrelevant whether it's a Hobie points or Open regatta... To the guy who bought a Wave for family fun at their beach property... this is just white noise. EVEN if you got his attention... never having sailed with another Wave... He simply won't get interested in the notion of a race.

So, before you divide up the handful of wave racers on what rules to follow.

Is the Wave Class about getting cat racers from other classes who now want a cheap very simple boat?

Or is the Wave Class about ID and attracting Wave owners who are attracted to the social aspects of a fleet of catamaran sailors and bring the boat out to play but have never raced before and get talked into giving it a spin... Just like the good ol days of Hobie, Prindle, etc etc?

Is there another model that the class is going about?

Mark, are you asking HCA or IWCA?

I first started racing in the largest, most active class of cats in the USA.., the Shark Catamaran. My buddy and I picked up the boat at the backyard dealer, who asked if we wanted to race with their Shark Fleet at Mentor Harbor YC, in Mentor, OHIO that weekend. We, of course, did.
We were DEAD LAST.
Had a great time, however, and vowed to get better. I followed around the Wells Family (father, Bill, daughters Mary and Betty), for two years and always kept my eye on how and why they did things. Then at the keg kept asking questions.
In a little over a year, they won the NAs and I took 3rd with my son, Dave (who is a top sailor in the Nacra 6.0 and Wave).
No, I did not quit just because I was last, and probably didn't have the best equipment. I was last because this was all new to me, and I had a helluva lot to learn.

Mark, sorry you don't see us anywhere near you, but Waves are thriving, with new fleets popping up all over the place. And once in the class, it seems sailors really fall in love with the boat and the class.

Who makes it up? Well, a good many of the sailors were once teams on Hobie 16, 18, 20, Prindles of all sorts. Now the guy and gal each have their own boat and race against each other.., and both usually with a lot of success.
Lots of older people: We started out with the Masters at age 55, but most of the fleet was there or better, so we raised it to 60 and are looking to go to 65.
We have made tremendous attempts at getting youth involved, as it is a great training boat. We cannot claim much success along that line, however.

Again, IWCA is the ONLY ACTIVE Wave class. We are not dividing anyone. Anyone from HCA is welcome with open arms. Unfortunately, that feeling is not reciprocal and there is where this thread began.

How about this. Invite the Waves. If they show up, give them a start. That is what we do. www.sailsandpoint.org
Caleb

I agree, but if Lasers can get Radial, 4.7, and full rig, why can't hobie say std one design, and IWCA rigs?
It seems no-one wants to help IWCA that started on their own, so they have to stay on their own?????

My name is Eddie Moran. I am a novice racer and a Wave fan. I have had the opportunity to sail my wife's Wave for six months now. I raced in the Nationals a few weeks ago just 10 miles south of my home in Merritt Island, Fl.

The race was put on by Scott and Dior of Performance Sail and Sport in Melbourne, Fl.

WHAT A FRIGGIN BLAST! I have raced cars, landed on carriers and crashed airplanes and I can say that the Wave racing was right up there. Getting my butt kicked by 72 year old sailors is ok with me. They were more than happy to give advice.

I have a standard Wave. How did I do? Well, on the races that I competed I had a few legs that I was right in there. Had I been smarter and knew what I was doing I would have done much better. I had fun.

The wind was gusting to 25 the first day and the waves were an issue but I hung in there. The beer and BBQ were excellent and the friendships made were a bonus.

So after reading this thread I would say that you guys need to do whatever you think is right to bring out more people like me. We have a chance to be right in the mix with stock boats as proven by Scott who raced a stock boat and did very well.

Jack, I hope Flika and you are doing well!

Eddie Moran

I have ALWAYS said sailing a Wave is exactly like crashing a plane on an aircraft carrier. Now I have been proved right.(of course I am joking to all those that take everyting totally literal)

First, Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

Second, I can't believe the number of posts on this thread.

Third, I can't wait to race against you guys and gales.

<< Unfortunately, that feeling is not reciprocal>>
There's been lots of miscommunication. How can we fix it? Where do we start?


[size:17pt]How about a new thread....Wave of the Future. [/size]

Mimi Appel

Hey Eddie. Will we see you at the Nats? Flicka is a real trooper.

BTW, anyone who says the Wave is a POS kids boat, Eddie not only flew Phantoms and Hornets onto carriers, he did it as a Marine!

Semper Fi

Eddie and Mimi, Hope to see you both next weekend for the Nationals in the Florida Keys. The usual 10-15 + Tradewinds, flat seas, and kick-butt sailing.
Chris, you ought to get your butt down here as well and see what it is all about. There are charter boats available. just email Barb Short <barb (at) the-helm.com>

Rick

Eddie,
Just so nobody gets confused, the regatta you went to in Melbourne was the Wave North Americans. The Wave Nationals is this coming weekend, Dec. 5, 6, 7, in the Florida Keys, as always. Hope you can make it, because it is the class' major event of the year, and the annual class meeting and election of officers is also held during the Nationals. Here is a link to all the information: http://www.catsailor.com/waves/wave_nationals.html


For any questions, contact me, mary@catsailor.com, or 305-433-0840 (cell).