TMS-20 update - new from The Man Shed

It has been some time since I’ve posted anything on the TMS-20 and The Man Shed so I’d thought I’d post an update.

Shoulder Repair
I’m back at it but a bit slower pace since my surgery. I’m off pain pills so the shoulder is sore but the Doc gave the go ahead to start lifting and work it out. How better to work out the kinks then to long board. Hold on moon doggie not the long 60’s surfboard type; I can’t even sail yet - but a thin piece of wood with sand paper glued to it. A boat builder’s friend for a fare curve from a noble plan as Jimmy Buffett says. Still going to PT I swear they would be Nazis at a different time in history, but it helps so in PT pain is good.

A-Cat Mast Repair
A-Cat mast came out good. I ended up not vacuum bagging the mast. The vacuum bag had a tendency to wrinkle the cloth on the tight curve. So I did a hand lay-up using peel ply. When sanding out the first break getting ready for lay-up we found a second crack and a little sanding on it put the mast in two sections again. Not the plan but better in the shop. Again right where the inside of the mast stepped down from 5mm to 2.5mm with a hard step. I had to make a double sleeve again. I changed my design some and it was a bit easier. I also picked up a $30 in line laser level from home depot and spotted, at dusk, down the sail slot all the way down the mast when I glued the sleeves together to make sure the tip was straight - that worked really slick. The batteries in the camera were dead so I never got a final picture. My final words – Make sure you paint the mast this time!

TMS-20
I did some pricing to see if I could get the molds for the AMA’s cut on a CNC machine from wood or foam. This is big bucks! I found one local shop that would do it but charge me $3,500 per hull half. We dickered around some and he said he would do both for $3,800 but still seems like too much for a prototype boat. That kind of blows my budget but it is a really cool idea. At work we do small parts but nothing very large. If anybody has any connections in the CNC world let me know. I have not ruled it out but I’d like to half that cost or less. If I was going into production and making molds with a decent budget it is surely the way to go. Sanding even with air sucks.

I’ve been faring out the starboard main hull half and it is starting to take shape. The flair in the hull has been a lot of work but it is finally starting to shape up and fare out. I ended up wrapping sandpaper around a can West Systems powder and it gave me the radius I needed. Some may question why I’m faring out the foam before I glass. It is easier to sand epoxy with powder (bog) then glass and no itchy nights from the bog. Plus the Carbon skins are just 2 layers of 200gram carbon cloth not much to sand there. The bog for you West fans is epoxy with 407 powder. The 407 bog is a little hard to sand but it is slightly structural and has excellent bonding strength.

I’ve also reset the strong back re-leveled it and I’m flipping the stations for the port side. Kurt Hughes has a good trick for this. Do every other one this way you do not have to re-square all the stations as this method keeps the spacing. You just have to check that every thing is level side to side and fore to aft. I have half of the station flipped and perhaps by the end of next weekend I have the other half flipped. Then I’ll be ready to start cutting foam and do this bloody thing all over again.

Later- The Man Shed

A few pics for those interested I'll be updating the website.

Few more pics....

Nice work Mike! Where did you get the pneumatic long board? And when do you use is as opposed to the manual board? Thanks!

Dave

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91773

I was thinking of picking one up for my next bottom job. I think it might be "too much" though for just sanding bottoms.

At $30 I'm guessing it's junk. Those things take a beating and you'll go through more paper than you imagine. Not a good tool for the casual bottom job, imo.

Dave,
The In line air sander is from Harbor Freight Sales. It ranges from $19.95 to $39.95 if you are going to do much sanding definitely buy the $20 two-year free replacement service protection. I'm on my 3rd and 4th sander. The first two blew out in about 10 hours. I'm thinking that if you drop them that is certain death to the sander. The third one was going good then I started to sand the edge without sandpaper (stupid me) on the foot and ripped the rubber up. So I bought another one as a spare. With the service plan they are really good about replacement. At a regular body shop supply store you would pay $200-$300 for a sander so I don't mind going through a few and we have a Harbor Freight in town.

I start with the in line air sander to rough out the surface. The bog gets very hard so I can get away with 40-grit sandpaper and the air sander. That may be good for several applications of bog as you start to shape it out. You can remove a lot of material so you have to keep it moving evenly over your work. I use the pencil to scribble all over the surface. Then switch to the long board. The low spots will still have the pencil carbon so you can see where you need to fill or sand more.

At a point you switch to the long board you can tell when the air tools have reached your maximum effective point. You will be at a point where it is not getting any smoother or you are just adding bog and sanding it off. Some people stop at this point, then some carry it out further. I’ve been around this type of work as a hobby for 30 years so I can get close by air tools. But 20 foot long you need to board it out. You can buy the sandpaper in rolls to save costs then just cut your own strips it is sticky backed so you do not have to mess with the clamps.

Mike

For just a casual bottom job use a palm sander they vary in price the one in the picture was close to $300 but it is top of the line. You can sand all day and your wrist will not burn and I've had it for 5 years.

One note the in line sanders are air hogs you need a good 60 -90 psi constant supply. I still need to give my big system a rest.

I used a regular longboard sander last winter and got great results.... (before brett's boat dragged mine across the parking lot)

Parking lot sanding? ouch!!!!

Yeah....

Before:


After is too graphic for young audiences.

I know both of you know this but the discussion is not giving proper focus on what a long board really does; to properly fair a surface, the long board needs to be slightly flexible to contour to the gentle curve of the hull. Most pneumatic sanders are not flexible.

Like I said the in line air sander is to rough shape. Long boarding, like wet boarding the detainees is torture, but the only way to get a fare surface.

Undecide nice finish on the hull bottom. If they could only stay that way!

tell me about it.

I didn't even get to sail a whole regatta on those bottoms. Not even a single race!

how does 1 boat drag another boat accross a parking lot?

All the boats were lined up in the lower parking lot at spring fever. Since there's nowhere to tie down boats (because its on pavement) we tie all the boats, side by side, to each others trap wires to help keep from flipping over if a storm comes along. We bookend the boats on either side by a trailer.

Well, on the Thursday night before the race, my boat was stuck between Trey's boat and Brett's boat - when a tornado came across the lake.

Apparently Brett's spinnaker came out of its bag and was partially flogging in the breeze and dragged his boat on its attached cushions. I had mine on throwable PFD's... so when his boat dragged, his bottom protection was still in place, but mine came off its pads and was dragged about... 3 feet.

Good way to sand a straight line. But that really sucks all of that hard work.

gad-zukes!!! thats horrible.. at least it wasnt an act of drunken stupidity...

Andrew are you saying that sailors have made errors by acts of drunken stupidity? I've made some stone cold sober.

Hows that song go?, oh yea....

Take a beer, pass it around.. says Barnacle Bill the phlebotomist!!!

haha.. i would never make such an assumption... (as i am usually to drunk to have clear thoughts)

. . . to set the record straight, as I was the one to brave the tornado as everyone else was knocking the bottoms out of all the rum bottles in the county, Brett's spin was flogging 30 feet in the air, attached only to the end of it's 85 foot halyard, over the pine trees, in the mother of all storms. It was I who gave up my position in the grog line to save the boats. :P

Brovo! My G-Cat went through a tornado once in St Pete on the bay during portsmith runs. It faced 90 degrees to the other boats and did not get touched. I remember one boat got hung on the fence. A SuperCat 20 tall rig got the spar bent but we reshaped it. I went out with Randy the next day and had a great sail on the SC20 the mast stayed together. That was quite a few years back.

Excellent Mike, I appreciate all the assistance you've offered. Harbor Freight is here too. I've got a nice DA pneumatic, and I've been laminating belt sander belts to plywood with contact cement for manual longboards. Where do you get the sandpaper in rolls? Width and grits? My painter recommends taking it to 320 before it goes to him, what's your finish grit? Thanks!

Dave

Dave,

That is not bad I usually go to 320 - 400 before I shoot primer. I get the roll sandpaper from Glue Products http://www.glueproducts.com in West Palm Beach. Here is the short cut looks like they have updated the website. I do not see the rolls but call them they are pretty good people. To save on shipping cost check out local professional auto paint, body, or fiberglass supply stores they usually carry a good assortment of sandpaper type products. You want to ask your painter he may know locally who has the best assortment of that type of product. I use to do a lot of car restoration work so I got to know most of the local shops and who has what.

I used 2 sanding belts cut open and glued to my long board. At Home Depot they are like 8-9 bucks for a package of belts. Last night I peeled off the old belts and attached two strips of the 40 grit strip sand paper, sticky backed, to the board and it worked great also it is cheaper overall. That is if you buy it by the roll and use that much. I may go back over it with 80-grit I'll see how it looks. The 40-grit will give good "teeth" so it may be my final sanding before I glass. The width is standard for In-Line air sanders something like 2.75 inches. I'll try to grab some pics.

Mike

Wow. I'm a cabinetmaker, so I use alot of sandpaper.

80grit is like the pulverizer of death when it comes to wood. Harsh. I never would have guessed you work from something more coarse than that doing fibreglass work. Then again one of my poorly repaired daggerboards, (previous owner filleted one), was thicker than the other and I went to town on it with a beltsander and 120g to get it back down to thickness. That was a massive pain in the rear. I only got to sail once this year with fixed daggerboards. One of my boards looked like death, the other was mauled by a mystery pile of rocks in 10ft of water. They both sucked. Scared the crap outta me when the boat started humming in some serious high pitches after they were all fixed up. Apparently I didn't have any decent flow over anything prior to fixing them. Man I hate being lazy.....

For Dave:

Check with your local cabinetmakers and see if they have any old widebelt sander belts they want to get rid of, or haven't thrown away yet. Most are cloth backed and durable, and even in the little sander I have the belts are 37" wide, and 60" long. I burn through quite a few when busy, they get knicked up, or a spot is bad and they're junk, but there's still plenty of abrasive left on them.
Lately my made in Tawain piece O' crap sander has been failing in the tracking duties and ramming the belts off the edge, destroying the edge of some brand new $50 belts.

Mike

After going thru the process to this point…is there anything you would do differently in the female jig/foam strips fabrication to further minimize the un-fairness of the foam hulls?
Would you reduce the distance between frames as John Lindahl did with the LR2/LR3 A cat? Did you have excessive deflection of the foam when glassing the inner surface that caused it to be unfair?

Would you spend more time fairing out the female frames themselves? Trying to get even fairer jig by adding and filling as dictated by an appropriate batten rather than going strictly to the stations as plotted by a computer generated template?

Your insight would be appreciated as I am building an F14 cat using basically the same process and I haven’t started the actual foam strips yet. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Robert

Robert,

Buy one! But if you insist:

On the next side I am going to spend more time in the set-up of the jig. One problem on this hull shape or benefit is the amount of curves concave and convex (compound). The curves are very tight and a bit radical. I cut the foam in what was a medium width for the average for the boat to allow fewer saw and router settings. The cove and bead cut help smooth the curve. But I am rounding square strips. There are several things to consider for the next side. One thing to note the bog in most spots is just a thin skim coat by the time it is sanded out.

Glue
I used West System to glue the strip together, which is very hard and does not sand at the same rate as the foam. I have read about gorilla glue (GG) that dries softer and sands about the same rate as the foam. I will make a test panel to make sure that GG and West System Epoxy play well together. Then I'll be able to do more shaping to bare foam.

Vertical Strips
The Farrier boys use this system now and they raked me over pretty good on Sailing Anarchy even Ian Farrier himself chimed in. Instead of using long horizontal strips (longitudinal) they use Vertical planks up to 24” wide. The station are actually spaced further apart but there are wooden longitudinal runners on the mold. You may have to heat the foam to get it to bend. This is not a bad idea if the curves in the boat are slow. I may use this method for the ama’s. The mold construction is more elaborate so it will take longer. Look at his website he has a small downloadable builders guide that has one page on this then a bunch stuff on his plans. It is like I told Ian my boat has curves in three plans not just two and the curves are tight so this method is not the best for me at this time.

Frame Station
My stations are 12 inches apart so I don’t think you could get much tighter. I used 3/8 inch Divinycel H-60. I’m going to use 3/8 H-80 on the ama’s for several reasons: stronger, stiffer, and the plans call for a mix of H-60 and H-80 so I’m just going with the H-80. Also you go thicker but 3/8 seems pretty good. Let me know if you are looking for a router bit there is a combo bit that makes both cuts.

Sanding
Because of all of the curves it is really hard to sand the frames. I’m going to spend more time faring out the frames before I start to foam it out. Especially now that I know from the first half where the highs and lows are.

CNC
If I had the money and better connections in CNC world I’d have the shapes cut out of wood or foam and make a simple mold. That is big bucks, so far I’m still working that idea out.

One Last Note
It is a ton of work! But if you like to that type of thing it is very rewarding. I think of myself as a sculpture but I work in composite instead of stone. Good Luck let me know if can help with anything. Look at my website my contact for Carbon Fiber also does Eglass, ect… she gets good prices.

Karl wood is much softer then Epoxy with powder mixed in to make a bog. Working with 40-80 grit works pretty good because it is like sanding rocks. Plus it does leave some grooves in the bog but give "teeth" for bonding the cloth. If it was too smooth you would not get a good bond. Bog drys much much harder then say bondo. I agree you never want to chase wood with my long board.

Some more on faring and long boarding….
I shaped the bog with the air in-line sander. Then took a shop pencil and scribbled all over the boat. It looks like I parked in New York City next to the subway. (If I was painting I'd shoot two different color primers to show me "layers" for sanding for highs and lows.) Then I start my long boarding. Some low spots are obvious as the shinny dimples, or slight as the scribbles left on the boat. In know some chemist will correct me but basically graphite and carbon are close enough to the same whereas I can bog over it and it does not matter. Then I start the process all over again. At some point I see all the scratches and dust are even on the surface and will be able to feel the farness with my hand. Personally I can feel surfaces better then sight when checking for farness, especially if there are color variances, but that’s me. Also is a pic of a roll of sanding paper for a in-line air sander 80 grit.

Mike

After long boarding...You can see low spots as the scribbles left. Some of the spots down to foam will be bogged as foam sand a bit faster, just a skim coat.

Mike,

Have you thought about thickening the epoxy with an additive to make it sand easier between the foam joints? I've not worked with it but talc, a primary ingredient in poly based filler / fairing compound, acts as both an adhesion promoter and makes sanding easier. Micro balloons certainly would be another option.

I thought talc was to absorbent for this purpose.

Mike I really appreciate you giving such a detailed response...you confirmed all my suspicions.
Without going thru all your past posts on the subject, did you add a liberal amount of glass bubbles to your epoxy to glue the foam strips together? I have had good luck in the past sanding the glue joints in H80 when you really load up heavy on the glass bubbles.

Thank you again for your generosity in sharing your experience.

Best Regards,
Robert

Mike,
I too would like to thank you for all your details, you're speeding up my learning curve substantially. I really like the scribble idea. Keep educating us!

Dave

Mike go to Wal-Mart and get some kids sidewalk chalk... lay it on its side and pull over the surface...Much faster than scribbling...

Regards,
Robert

I was thinking the same thing, but would that impede the bonding on the next bog?

Not anymore than the dust from sanding if you weren't to clean it with solvent before the next round.

Jay, never had a problem with it impeding the bond...that is how we use to board all the big sport fishing boats...only difference is we used a cake of blue carpenters chalk...the blue is darker and easier to see...any chalk left in the low spots you can wipe away, and you should be wiping the whole surface down with denatured alcohol anyway between coats to get rid of the alamine blush.

Regards,
Robert

you're right. forgot about the prep step before bogging again.

I like the plumber chalk idea.

Talc is not recommended from what I've read, although used by some people. Some one guessed it water adsorbs in the talc. I have a white sheet on faring material from my NA and what he uses. I suppose chalk would work but that seems messy. The pencil is pretty easy and works well for me and does not make a mess. I cut it with a safety blade and expose about 3/8 of the tip and only have to sharpen it once while marking out the hull pretty easy and simple no mess. It would seem the chalk would move around as you sand. You could use glass balloons or bubbles not sure about the load surface or water absorption. I like the bond that the bog with 407 gives and it not that bad to sand. I like the West Products because they have cans of different powders that I can easily grab for specific bogs. I know that they work with West have a proven track record.

Besides the exact materials used and method at least this gives you an idea of how I bog and fare out a surface. From here you can use materials that you feel comfortable working with and develop your own method.

No matter what it’s 1/7 material 6/7 elbow grease!
Sand with a smile!

Cheap can of lacquer instead of chalk or pencil. Black lacquer based auto primer should work. Just dust on a light coat. Sand away, read the contours.

No problem I have not worked with the H-80. I bought a sheeet of 1/2 for the bulkheads but not that far along yet. I started with the tube of west - easy too expensive, then I used 410 bog, 407 bog, then just straight epoxy. All the Farrier guys are using gorilla glue (gg) now. I'm going to check back with West, Ian Farrier, my NA, and DIAB about GG plus do a test panel. With the Cove & Bead most of the glue surface is hidden anyway.

Pete don't think that has not crossed my mind.
I'm worried about mixing lacquer and epoxy on the surface, especially multiple times, and the effect of thinner on the foam. Sometimes I think being a “simple man” is a way to hedge my bets with several thousands of dollars in material and god knows how much time. I’d hate to have any lifting or compromise a secondary bond.

No disrespect intended to the West Systems products, but their fillers are very expensive and identical to the stuff you can get elsewhere in bulk. 2oz of West 410 (microlight), which I believe are the white glass micro balloons, is $16. You can get FIVE QUARTS (160 ounces) of the 3M brand glass microballoons for $9.75. Same with the phenolic microballoons (the redish medium weight filler), and cabosil (the fumed silica).

http://www.uscomposites.com/fillers.html

You're a step ahead of me. . . as usual!

Jake
410 microlight is a thickener without microballoons to give a really lightweight filler.
It spooky stuff, it almost binds together when squeezed in the hand BEFORE any resin is added. So it needs very little resin in the mix.
It actually floats when cured.

I think that it is worth the money and better to keep with one manufacturer when doing a big project. Any advice or warranty would be void if you start mixing and matching.

Either way, I can't believe how much filler Man-shed is using on his foam, you only need to fill the joints because filling and fairing will be necessary after glassing anyhow.

Just a check on input points well taken.

West Systems and other builders do not recommend using 410 as a laminate. I’ve used 410 as a filler before and it does sand easier I also can put my fingernail into the finished work. A study will show that 410 used topside over glass will “bruise” such as rope burns so you may want to consider where to use it as a filler. I purchased a 15lb box of 407 at my discount, which is a considerable savings then compare that over the medium or large can single can price. If I account for my free time available for shopping, which is also money - I feel Ok with what I have. If I shopped it out I’m sure I could save maybe up to $100 if figure my time was worth it. One method to my madness is buying most of my products from one source, which leads to, larger over all discounts. I get 50% off the foam, paint, sandpaper, and other marine supplies so I like to keep my account active. So what I would save on faring compound I easily save on just one sheet of foam or roll of DA pads. In the big picture it is a bust for convenience and over all savings of my total supplies.

Once the faring is complete there will not be as much filler on the boat after sanding with the long board, but you are correct it more then I’d like. Very little faring will be needed after glassing that is why I’m fairing now. Two layers of 198-gram carbon (6.9oz) cloth make up the outer skin, not much if anything to fare before you compromise the strength of the lay-up. More care will be taken in the next side to check for farness before foaming, and a softer glue to allow better shaping of the foam.

To give you an idea on a female production mold the foam usually has horizontal and vertical scores cut about ½ way through it. It comes as a sheet of foam it also has small holes machined through it to pull the resin and vacuum through it. The resin/epoxy/bog saturates all of the holes in the foam. The bedding layer of bog is a layer that sits between the skin and foam “flat” and “upward” to fill the score cuts in the foam that expand as it contours to the curvature of the mold. Comparative to that method I’m probably not using more bog and the foam I’m using is much thicker.

Could there be less bog – ideally and as I learn I certainly hope so. I had a dilemma at one point less farness, and who would really know, or to make it fare as possible with what I had just incase I decide to pop a mold. I can go up to many production boats and even exotic cars and “side view” them and see flaws, wiggles, and wows. I did that recently with a 25-35 foot sized production multihull (this way I’m not picking on them) and I was amazed and by the workmanship it was like rollers on the beach. But most people don’t ”angle” like that perhaps it is a sickness.

Thanks for the comments,

Mike

Second thought would be to cut the frames again = but that won't happen! Part of the what I've read said don't worry get it close you can fare it out later.