Hobie Class Bylaws Committee shoots down Formula-18 proposal

There was a proposal brought to the Hobie Cat Class Association of North America that would allow Formula 18s to race in Hobie Class regattas. I know it has been talked about many times before so it may not come as a surprise to you that the proposal was shot down by “The Bylaws Committee”.

We, The Bylaws Committee, find unanimously, that the proposal to allow F-18s to race, beyond the currently allowed "three open class regattas" per year, will violate several key points of the Bylaws as currently written. In order to instate the proposal, one or more of the Bylaws will have to be changed.

I guess it never really got to a class vote as “The Bylaws Committee” got a hold of it before that could happen.

I think there are parts of the country that this could have been nice not just for the left out Formula 18s but also to give the Tigers and Wildcats more competition. In certain parts of the country it may be hard to find Yacht Clubs to put on enough races allowing the high performance boats their due. The Hobie Class may have been able to round that out with a couple more if that were the case.

In my area it may be just the reverse. I think that we have plenty of clubs interested in the Formula 18 fleet that we can get way more venues than we could put on the calendar. In some cases there are invitations to the Hobie Class to race even though not many are members of any affiliate club. Maybe it is to lure members when they see what a nice time it is (bar, food, showers). Most of the Formula 18 members in our area are affiliated with an appropriate club which allows us to be part of the Yachting scene. I encourage any who are not to do so…it is only right.

Think about this though: We are now sailing very expensive boats. It is a bit easier to take care of them in Yacht Club environments. I would encourage you to find a club you are comfortable with and check out how many catamaran owners are members. You can also find out if there is a cheaper affiliation club which is allowed to participate in their regattas. If you do not have enough races in your area find out if they are willing to add you to the lineup. Most of them are going to be pleased you asked. They will get more registrations and a cool class to watch.

Later,
Daniel DeLave
NAF18 - West Coast Rep.

Question that I have not seen answered?
How many Hobie only regattas still exist?

Looks like quite a few:

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/hcana/downloads/nors/2009/2009HotlineSchedule2.pdf

It's fine that the Bylaws Committee gives its thoughts on bylaws interpretations but it's not their job (or within their authority) to make definitive rulings on bylaws interpretations. That's the Board of Directors job.

The Committees duties are clearly stated and limited per Article IX.

ARTICLE IX. COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
Section 2. Committee Duties
b. Bylaws Committee: The Bylaws Committee shall:
1. Consist of three (3) members serving a term of one (1) calendar year.
2. Review the Bylaws of the HCA on an annual basis, for consistency with the aims and policies of the HCA.
3. Receive, submit and review all proposed amendments to the HCA Bylaws.
4. Submit recommendations for proposed amendments to the HCA Bylaws to the Board of Directors for approval.
5. The Chairman of the Bylaws committee shall be the 2nd Vice Chairman of the HCA and shall be responsible for receiving the ballots and declaring the results.
6. All amendments to the bylaws shall be announced in the next published edition of the HCA Newsletter after declaration of results.

Nowhere is the Bylaws Committee given the power to make definitive rulings on bylaws interpretations.

So who does make the definitive interpretations? The answer is the HCA Board of Directors.

ARTICLE VI. BOARD OF DIRECTORS
Section 4. Powers and Duties: The general management of the affairs of the HCA shall be vested in the Board of Directors of HCA. The Board of Directors shall:
a. Transact all other business not explicitly vested herein to the general membership, required to carry out the purpose and aims of the HCA;

So long story short is that the Board of Directors still needs to decide this issue.

Bob is absolutely right,our job being on the Bylaws committee is to review the Bylaws and make a recommendation.We are very low on the totem pole.
Dan not really sure why you would want to air this issue out on this forum.Probably in your best interest is to discuss it with your Division chair.

Sigh...

Well... the NAHCA can worry about the proper relationship of boxes on the organizational flow chart... Facts on the ground are usually decisive.

Each local Hobie Fleet is in fact operating as a Yacht Club Organizing Authority. They can choose to drop the title Hobie points regatta, and run the event anyway they wish.

For example, Syracuse 204 can invite the IWCA Waves and the F18's to their Madcatter Regatta... drop the Hobie in the title.. They also invite their standard Hobie 16, 17 18 Classes and run their usual great OD event.

Most YC 's I know would love to add 30 F18's and 10 Waves to their event! It makes the event financially viable.

The Madcatter regatta has drawn enormous numbers of 16's... I assert the Hobie sailors won't give a damn if it's called a Points regatta or not. Evidence...The Gunpowder event in division 11 was a great regatta as a points event and remains a great regatta since they choose to not call it a points regatta... no big changes in support.

The ball then goes back to the Hobie Division who has to decide if they want to screw the Hobie 16 sailors who raced at Syracuse and deny them counting points towards their Hobie 16 High point score in the Division because the YC hosted an F18 class as well.

Usually this is described as cutting off one's nose to spite one's face!

There should be no penalty for the Hobie 16-18 racers because they generate 30 boats in a non sanctioned regatta and want to count those points in the regions High Point ... But if they don't count the points... I bet nobody really cares and support is as strong as ever. Did not matter in my area.

Bottom line...Its a local decision, if the Hobie Yacht club wants Hobie only races that will be branded Hobie Only...no changes forced from on high... Likewise the can choose not to brand it Hobie Points... Each club makes that call.

At the end of the day... you need sailors to show up at your regatta... an invitation from Syracuse to Wave Sailors may NOT be accepted... Why... because they are over scheduled or its too damn cold, or its been known to snow on this event... what ever... ditto the F18's (although those boys would be going south for this event)

Good luck to the reform minded Hobie sailors!

Hmmm......

Problem is - Dan doesn't have a "Division Chair". He doesn't own a Tiger anymore and he's not a 2009 member of the HCA.

This is an internal HCA policy decision which really only affects certain areas of the country, where there are Tiger one-design fleets as well as F18 fleets.

BTW, the language used by the Bylaws Committee - "three open class regattas per year" - is misleading. It's not carte blanche for a Division to have three open class events. An existing HCA event cannot use this policy to re-characterize their event as an "open" event to invite other classes.

It is a method for yacht clubs and other Organizing Authorities to invite Hobie Classes to their event and have the event count towards HCA rankings. The Charlotte Harbor Regatta is a perfect example of this, where the Hobie 16 Class has been invited to share a regatta with Flying Scots, Sunfish, Melges 24s, Viper 640s, Wetas and several other classes.

So long as we’re putting it all out there here I’ll post the facts before they become mischaracterized.

First the proposal:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HCA Points System Proposal

Proposed by: Rob Jerry, North American Tiger Class representative

Proposal:

HCA Points regattas shall be allowed to include a Formula 18 start when it is decided by the areas Division Chair and Fleet Commodores that doing so is

a) necessary to support Tiger and Wildcat sailors and/or
b) necessary for the overall health of the event and therefore in the best interest of the Hobie one-design fleets.

The following conditions shall apply:

1) The fleet hosting the regatta must have local Hobie Tiger or Wildcat owners in its membership.
2) Tigers racing within the Formula 18 fleet shall be scored separately as a Tiger one-design fleet in addition to their Formula 18 fleet score. Only Tiger one-design scores shall be counted in the HCA ranking.
3) At least one competitor on each Hobie Tiger shall be an HCA member. Other Formula 18 sailors shall pay a $10 per boat fee to support the HCA regatta insurance policy.
4) This policy shall be in effect for a two year trial period after which it shall be evaluated by the HCA Board of Directors.

Reasons:

In many areas of the North American region HCA points events have either been canceled or run the risk of being canceled in the future due to low turnout. It is not in the best interest of Hobie one-design classes when these events cease to exist or convert to an open regatta format. Part of this problem stems from the fact that the majority of Tiger sailors prefer to race in the larger Formula 18 fleets than the smaller Tiger fleets. If adopted, this proposal will help to retain viable numbers at Points Regattas by retaining Tiger competitors and boosting numbers with additional F18 competitors.


Now the Bylaws Committee Opinion
I believe the Committee is Dona McIntosh, Mike Madge and Jeremy Leonard
---------------------------------------------------------------
We, The Bylaws Committee, find unanimously, that the proposal to allow F-18s to race, beyond the currently allowed "three open class regattas" per year, will violate several key points of the Bylaws as currently written. In order to instate the proposal, one or more of the Bylaws will have to be changed. Below are our findings.
The Bylaw as written:
ARTICLE II. - PURPOSE AND AIMS
Section 1. Purpose: The purpose of the Hobie Class Association of North America is to establish and promote Hobie Cat sailing and racing in its geographic boundaries...
Violation:
We, The Bylaws Committee, find that by allowing F-18s built by other manufacturers to race, HCA would not necessarily be promoting "Hobie Cat Sailing," we would be promoting F-18 sailing. We don't believe that the spirit of the Bylaws is to support the open class F-18 racing. We feel that it is not the job of HCA to promote or support F-18 racing.
The Bylaw as written:
Section 2. Aims: The aims of the HCA include:
a. To give support and encouragement to the sailors of Hobie Cat sailboats.
Violation:
We, The Bylaws Committee, feel that the proposed change would not be, “…encouraging and supportive of sailors of Hobie Cat Sailboats,” but would be encouraging and supportive to F-18 racers.
The Bylaw as written:
c. To support and maintain the one-design racing features of the Hobie Cat sailboat.
Violation:
We, The Bylaws Committee, believe that this proposal does not support "one-design racing features of the Hobie Cat sailboat." It promotes F-18 racing.


The Bylaw as written:
f. To provide advisory jurisdiction over activities sponsored by members, Fleets and Divisions of the association.
Violation:
We, The Bylaws Committee, feel that due to the vague nature of the proposal, certain items would need to be addressed for compliance. For example, if the proposal were to pass, are we going to require that F-18s built by other manufacturers to join and support their local Hobie Fleets and the HCA in order to allow the class to have, “advisory jurisdiction over activities?”
We feel that a big part of HCA and its Bylaws are to foster HCA’s solid, international infrastructure, Divisions and Fleets, supported by both HCA members and HCC. We feel that the proposal does not address this point enough, and therefore feel that it is in conflict with the Bylaws.
The proposal does not address the fact that the HCC donates a substantial amount of financial support to the class, and there are no provisions to require Performance Catamarans, AHPC and other F-18 manufacturers to support the class as well. We feel that if F-18s built by other manufacturers are not explicitly required to be active in their fleets and divisions, then there will be a gap in the member, fleet, division, class, structure, therefore severing the HCA’s “advisory” role.
The Bylaw as written:
h. To foster and promote public interest in the sport of Hobie Cat sailing.
Violation:
We, The Bylaws committee, feel that the proposal does not, “foster and promote public interest in the sport of Hobie Cat sailing”, it fosters and promotes public interest in F-18 sailing.
The Bylaw as written:
j. To support the manufacturers and dealers in the promotion of Hobie Cat sailing and the quality production of one design class Hobie Cat sailboats.
Violation:
We, the Bylaws Committee, believe that the proposal would completely violate this point. For the Hobie sailboat dealers that only sell the Hobie brand, allowing other manufactured F-18s to race would not support them at all. The entire HCA structure, from Fleet to Division and on up to the international level, receive tremendous amounts of support from their local dealers.
We, The Bylaws Committee feel that the proposal would not, “support the manufacturers and dealers in the promotion of Hobie Cat sailing.”
Recommendation by the Bylaws committee:
We, The Bylaws Committee, believe that due to the fact that the F-18 has a long-standing and very successful history in Europe, Australia, South America, and many other parts of the world, a note should be made, and HCA should address it. The F-18 is definitely a growing fleet here in the US and we should take a proactive approach to get catamaran sailing, in whatever form, back into the mainstream consciousness.

We, The Bylaws Committee recommend that due to the vague nature of the written proposal, and the indisputable violations of the Bylaws, that the board cannot vote on it in good conscience.
We, the Bylaws Committee, realize that there may be a provision already in place to accomplish what the proposal is stating in a less politically charged manner; and which does not violate the Bylaws. The "3 open class regattas per year for new events" rule, which, we cannot find the exact text for, should be explored as a compromise that may allow F-18s to race on our racecourse. We feel that the F-18 class could assemble themselves and approach the organizing authority of any of these “Open Class” regattas and ask for a start, therefore, taking the blanket statement that, 'other F18s can race with us' from burdening those HCA race organizers that don't want F-18s to race with them for whatever reason.
We, The Bylaws Committee, feel that most fleets that are organizing events through yacht clubs would be happy to add an F-18 start to one of their “3 open events” if the F-18 class approached them. This would take the burden away from the HCA sanctioned race organizers and require the F-18 class to do some legwork; therefore, if some local criteria needed to be met, the race organizers would be able to discuss them with the F-18 class. We feel that if F-18s built by other manufacturers want to race, it is up to their class to take organizational responsibility to get out on the water, and not leave it up to the HOBIE Class Association to organize them. We feel that it is not in the spirit of the HCA Bylaws to organize F-18 racing.
We, The Bylaws Committee, feel that this is the best solution to eliminate the upcoming, politically charged vote on this proposal that will surely result in a black eye to the class from one side or the other.


Finally the existing class policy that passed in 2008
---------------------------------------------------------------

HCA Ranking System Proposal

Proposed by Bob Merrick and Chris Wessels

Proposal:

Results from the following types of events shall count towards the HCA Regional Rakings.

1- All events in which the HCA and/or an associated HCA Division and/or HCA fleet is the Organizing Authority. These events shall be HCA One-Design events. An HCA One-Design events is an event that conforms to the HCA One-Design policy. An explanation of this policy is available on the HCA website.

2- Up to three additional events in each HCA Division in which the Organizing Authority is not affiliated with the HCA. These events are subject to the following conditions.
Each Hobie Class (i.e. Hobie 16 or Hobie 20) in which ranking points will be awarded must

a) have at least five boats competing.
b) have a separate, one-design start.
c) compete using Hobie Class rules.

For an event to qualify under option 2 the Division Chair in which the event is to be held shall make a request by contacting the HCA Chair for approval prior to the event. This should be done 3-6 months ahead of time so that all sailors can be properly notified.
Results should be sent to the HCA scorekeeper from an official associated with the event.
All individuals scored in the HCA Regional Ranking must be HCA members.

Reason:
Introducing Option 2 events will help Divisions that don't currently host HCA One-Design regattas pick a few events in which to focus participation as a one-design fleet. It will also give these Divisions an incentive to host a few HCA One-Design events so that sailors can count a full five events in the ranking.

In the more active Divisions this will work to get good turnout at select multi-class events which is good exposure for the Hobie Class.


---------------------------------------------------------

And you can find a copy of the HCA bylaws at

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/default.asp?MenuID=Class_Info/10817/0/

Still not sure how an internal HCA policy recommendation from a volunteer committee makes its way on the forum.Maybe we should have just posted our recommendation here as opposed to replying to the HCA Chair.

I didn't think it would be a problem. I'll take it down if you like. People are just so prone to getting the facts wrong when they don't have them I figured better to just get it out there. Also if Dan has them it's probably going around on e-mail anyway.

Personally I would like to see the whole post disappear(title and all).I know Jeremy and Donna put a lot of thought and effort into the recommendation.Not sure they need there efforts critiqued on this forum.The way I see it is the Bylaws Committee is just a pawn in the overall plan to stall the decision.

So, the ruling should be secret and thereby unable to be criticized (and thereby not responsible to it's constituents)? That exhibits ALL the qualities I look for in a leadership organization who's leadership are elected. People should feel responsible for their decisions and take ownership for them. If it was the right decision, no big deal. If it was the wrong one then it causes strife then it probably should have.

2009 Ditch




j

Whoa, no need to get nasty here by anyone. We have people screaming about the proposal being a bylaws breaker and others saying its not, so the right thing to do according to me, is to have the duly appointed bylaws committee made up of 4 people from geographic diverse parts of the US to review it and give me their assessment. Which they did. I could give a crap who reads this, its what has happened. Now, we'll send this recommendation and the proposal to the board for them to decide if they want to either A. Rewrite the bylaws to accomodate this B. Not rewrite the bylaws and accomodate this C. Say NO thanks to the whole thing. I am glad you're all here, I just don't know how this **** makes it to the street so fast, I haven't even REALLY read the results myself yet!
Lay off the bylaws committee too, they did what was asked of them and did it well.

Long Beach 2009

First of all, the recommendation of the HCA Bylaws Committee was not a secret. Posting it on a public forum by a disgruntled member of the "losing" faction is poor form.

Secondly, this forum's members represent [size:26pt]a very small percentage of the HCA-NA Bylaws Committee and the HCA-NA Board of Directors' constituents.[/size]

I could probably count the number of HCA members that regularly post here on two hands. That would be about 1% of our membership.

First, I'm not interested or affected by the outcome. I'm not even questioning how it was derived or whether it was right or wrong. I'm no longer an HCA member and I no longer sail an F18.

While I agree that the underlying premise of the thread was probably to incite an emotion, I don't see anything that was not factual about it other than perhaps a misunderstanding about the inner workings of the HCA organization and the remote possibility that the findings of the bylaw committee may not be the final word.

I'm NOT taking any stance with regard to the outcome or how it was derived.

What I do find distasteful is the notion that such findings and ruling should be kept private for the sole reason that the people that made them don't have to suffer criticism. That's not how public democratic organizations should work. Publicly chastising the messenger instead of dealing with the message is also poor form.

There's too much emotion in here...Jake out.

I really like that there is a lively discussion. I do not like where it has gone. I am in no way trying to bash the Hobie Class, they have been very good to me. Rather, I am trying to light a fire under the Formula 18s to get our own things happening. I also do not like that I seem to be the bad guy…really not trying to be.

I really appreciate the efforts of those in the Hobie Class trying to make change. I was an officer in the Hobie class and know what it is like to make any kind of waves. This issue would be a big one.

Since getting involved in the Formula 18s I have been trying to promote Formula 18 sailing outside of the Hobie platform. There have been too many F-18 sailors looking for the HCA-NA to help get them on the water. On the West Coast F-18s are sailing with support of Hobie Cat Co. but without asking for too much help from the Hobie Class. On the flip side the F-18s and A-Cats are helping keep alive invitations for other classes in Hobies to sail in a couple of YC regattas to help their cause. Most of us were once H16, H17 or TheMightyHobie18 sailors. Each year at my club there is another discussion about getting increasingly strict with the qualifications.

I am trying to get the Formula 18 sailors in the U.S. to be more active as a class in themselves. Get our own events. I think the best approach is to work with the Yacht Clubs. I see F-18s getting more exposure and interest in the class by mixing it up with other kinds of boats at such events. I take a lot of people for an evening sail that saw us racing on the same regatta as they were on some other boat.

Later,
Dan

I’m not quite sure if the “disgruntled member of the ‘losing’ faction” is me or Dan. Anyway if someone wants me to delete my post just ask. I’ll delete it. I just hate to see these forum discussions spin out of control when no one knows what the heck they are talking about. At least now we all know what’s being discussed. We already have claims of lies and inaccuracies even with it all out in the open. Imagine if it wasn’t. Anyway, like I said, just ask.
So… you didn’t think I could go this long without expressing my opinion did you?
I sent the following to the Board of Directors (of which I am still a member, by the way) last week.


Dear HCA Board of Directors

It was interesting to listen in on the discussion last night and it's great to see that there is a clear line of communication between the class leadership and local sailors. Our class certainly has some work to do going forward and there were lots of good points made about how best to do that.

Personally I think that accepting this proposal will help our organization in the long run as we transform into a smaller class after more than half of our one-design boats have been discontinued. While I think that inviting Formula 18's to some of our events, as a guest fleet, is a good idea I don't think that we should be doing it in such a way as to require a change in our bylaws. By changing our bylaws to accommodate F18's we would be bringing an F18 fleet into the Hobie Class as a part of the class association. Formula 18 sailors already have their own class association as do we and there is no need or desire to combine the two organizations. In fact the IHCA has final approval over any bylaws changes we make and you can be sure that they would not allow such a change.

There is however a benefit to be had by the two organizations working together so that regatta attendance can be maintained at a level that allows the events to remain viable. In fact this is exactly how every Regional Hobie Class outside of North America operates. No part of the HCA or IHCA bylaws prohibits this.

While there is a need for the Hobie Class to keep its regattas viable by increasing the number of participants it is clear that we don't want to go back to the open class problems that we had in the past. I think that inviting the Formula 18 class to events and stopping there is a perfect middle ground opportunity for us to maintain viable events. The fact that the Hobie Cat Company manufactures two boats to the F18 rule makes this a natural partnership.

In my view this partnership would be in the best interest of the Hobie Class and I believe that it already conforms to our current bylaws. I have spent many hours reviewing our bylaws first as a member of the bylaws committee and later as the HCA Chair and most recently with regards to this proposal. I can assure you there is no conflict.

Sincerely,
Bob Merrick
Past HCA Chair

I did not mean any of this to go this way. Please delete it!!! I mean the whole thread!!! Can I do this? I would hate to delete first part and have all the rest hanging out there.

Give it a shot. See what happens. I think if you delete the first post the thread will delete. If not you probably need to delete each one individually and everyone else will have to follow.

I am still watching Transformers 2, so I can't keep up on all this reading.......am I taking it in the shorts again?

Sorry tried to delete and this is what I get:

Same here

PM Mary or Rick White, they should have admin access and can remove threads off the forums.

Mary and Rick,
If your going to exercise censorship to kill this thread, dispose of the Drill Baby Drill thread while your at it!

Is Transformers 2 any good? I was kinda disappointed in the first one. But, then again, transformers were my younger brother's gig...I just missed that.

Transformers 2 - I give it a solid B. The cinematic style was a bit too frenetic for me. A six minute collage of 1/2-second shots... I saw it IMax and it gave me a headache. Rented it so I could give it a fair shake and I liked it better. The mother character was freakin' hysterical.

I prefer Liar, Liar with Jim Carey, or Tombstone, Val Kilmer style. "I'll be your huckleberry". (best line ever)

WTF? Are there billions of dollars or loss of life at stake here? Chill boys..... it is just sailing.

I just got censored for using the acronym for "why turkeys fly"
Next they'll take full syllables.

I really like the first transformers but the second annoyed me

Quite a few on the West Coast.

As a member of both Hca-na and NAF-18 I can see both sides of this argument. As a F-18 sailor I'd like to see more of our regattas count for F-18 points. As a one design sailor I like knowing its a equal playing field.

Speaking only for myself I think if the proposal was better drawn up then it may have passed.

The bylaws commision just did their job. The proposal violated the by-laws and the committee made those points.They are not the bad guys here.

Jeremy is one of the first to help another fleet. A-cats , Monos, Yacht club racing , Even the F-18 class. Just because he voted against the proposal he's not against F-18 racing. He has told me on several occasions if we get a F-18 race in norcal he'll run chase or committee for the event. He ran the Ditch this year following the fleet and bieng our designated safety boat.

I was at the Divisional AGM and the proposal was not well met be alot of the members in attendance. The Tiger fleet was 50/50 split from the members I have talked to in Div 3. We are looking at the 3 regatta policy for open boats. One of which may be the Santa Cruz race. (put on by Jeremy and SCYC)

Dan is doing a wonderful job in socal keeping F-18 fleet going strong. He was also a great resource for me on my tiger when I started this platform.

We shouldn't be arguing over this proposal and who's at fault. We should be looking at how to make it work.

Feel free to contact me via im or e-mail if you want.

Rich

I think you will find that Rob is open to to friendly amendments.

Ya know , Jake, How ironic.

Everything you said in your last two posts, are pretty much exactly what the Demo majority house and senate has done to the the great people of this country recently. Ironic how you can support that, but then post this.


Let me get this straight, it's OK for the house and senate, but not OK for this? Typical warped mind of a liberal.


The tide is changing though

What's the problem Phil?

Point of order here, NO ONE has VOTED on ANYTHING yet.

For the record no one on the bylaws committee has a vote, the bylaws committee itself doesn't even have a vote.

A Proposal was discussed and forwarded to the bylaws committee.

The Bylaws Committee has published an OPINION on the proposal AS WRITTEN.

What happens going forward remains to be seen.

There is no place in this part of the process for blame.

+1

Other than seeing Meagan Fox's boobs bouncing in slo-mo, I would say the movie was pretty dumb. I went and saw Ninja Assassins the other night and that was 1000 times better than we thought it would be. I am a Trek nerd and don't really 'get' transformers so maybe that's it.
Anyway, I don't think this thread is negative, and the more conversation the better for everyone (good bad or otherwise)
Just know that we have a process and this is what we (me, in this case) felt was the way to go by having the bylaws people dig and come up with a recommendation. The group is pretty geographically diverse: Canada, CA, OK, and Florida, so they all have different perspectives and this is what they recommended the board take into consideration.
Back to movies: As far as cowboys movies go, I am going with Rustlers Rhapsody and 3:10 to Yuma as my favorites. Any movie where Andy Griffith is the bad guy is good.

Transformers - two words Meagan Fox, well worth the rental fee especially in hi def.

I don't think the thread is negative either. The level of organization and participation with the Hobie class is nothing short of impressive, kudo's!

I'm always up for good cowboy flick, I'll have to put those two on my short list for movie night.

Megan Fox is definitely hot, and I received a nice call from Rob Jerry last night! It's so nice when people that are actually involved in a situation can sit down and talk man to man. Things get so convoluded on message boards.

Do you think Transformers would scare my 3.5 year old?

j

I really like the texture of the mountains of this pic:



Thread beautification in progress...

Nice trapeze form.

Where was that photo taken?

I agree mmadge. I like how a little tinge of 'drill baby' hit this thread. Here's something for all to ponder from the F18 NAs:



j

I noticed your photos for "thread beautification" on page 1 of this thread. Very soothing. However, I also noticed that you NEVER mix Hobie Tiger photos with other F18 photos. Why is that???? Racist!

As for the 3.5 year old, my 9 year old who is a Transformer nut asked to leave the theater because it was too intense. The rapid fire non-stop scene changes made him too tense (not scared). I agreed and found the best part of the movie (other than jiggle-Fox) was leaving the theater.

Megan Fox, I don't know what it is, but she just doesn't do it for me. Butterface.

Good Question David. We're all racist to some extent. I also notice that working through my biases with lots of on the water therapy that I hardly ever post photos of Capricorns.



I really feel that I need to come clean with all of you here. Below is the pictoral evidence of a race that a friend of mine and I organized and I sponsored where we had 5o5s *GASP* AND cats on the course.



BTW, a Tiger will beat a 5o5 in all wind conditions by 5 minutes a lap +or-.

I think I'll hold off on the Transformers until Tiny's a bit older.

j

Transformers flicks = ADD meds, the need for...

While the subject of scary is up, thanks for the cat pic instead of the pic of a monohull, J. Whew.

BTW, I am putting my Christmas list together. Can you handle it? Are you ready? I keep shaking the catalog under mah famille's nostrils.

David:

Jeremy happened to be at the MegaEvent for that shot, only Hobies sailing.

Take a look at the NAF18 shots he took: NAF18 North Americans

I'm ready JJ!

But first, a little trivia. First right answer gets a Surf City shirt (wash your car with it, I don't care). If you are an F18 rep, sorry you're disqualified. Here goes.

Who were the first two guys to try to push the Formula 18 class here in the states back in 2001-2002?

My answer's right, don't try to argue it either. I'm sick of ****ing arguing.

Post answers below.

I don't have time to play with you guys today, so play nice while I'm gone.

j

I know the first two guys who raced Tigers in the US...

From Jake: "What I do find distasteful is the notion that such findings and ruling should be kept private for the sole reason that the people that made them don't have to suffer criticism"

Laws and sausage... you know the saying...

Matt Miller/Mimi Appel and Rob Jerry/Pauline Codd were the first to race Tigers in the US at Madcatter 2000



Tiger Class Results
skipper/crew city flt 1 2 3 total
--------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
1 Matt Miller/Mimi Appel DNS DNF 1 5.00
2 Rob Jerry/Pauline Codd Fayetteville NY 204 DNS 1 2 5.00

You would get half a shirt, Matt. There were actually kind of 3 guys as I see it. And, I'm right. And I'm talking the concept of the F18, which the first f18 here in the states, to my knowledge, was a Tiger.

j

Would Thomas / Bernier be too obvious?

Mike

I'll give you and MMiller a shirt for those answers as you are both barking up the right tree. Really you're both half right. Both names that I was thinking of that actually attempted to spearhead F18 racing here in the US have been mentioned in this thread. They should get some cred for being the OG.

Put them together and you've won a $25 gift cert and a shirt.

j

I know Rob Jerry was the prime driver on the east coast... He was at Gunpowder with his boat. I will bet that it was Greg Thomas... fresh off his Olympic run and Europe experience and working for Hobie that was the other driver on the West Coast

Mark wins the $25 and a shirt. PM me your address.

Honorable mention for all of the rest of the folks (MMiller, Mimi, Jacques et. al.), but I feel that these two guys were the driving force.

I think all of those guys are reading this thread right now. How about we all be civil? If what you're going to post doesn't do something positive for this thread, then don't post it. How's that?

It is always easy to spot good sailors by how they trapeze,feet are close together toes pointed forward,nice straight legs and back,crew close together and both upper torso's torqued forward.There are not to many North American Hobie 16 teams that do that as well as the top Australians and Europeans.

HA... I never win anything... all those years of raffles.... NADA!

Thanks

Send the shirt to me!
xxx PM'd
I need to post a pic of me proudly wearing it.

Send the 25 to CISA for their multihull High performance training program... or if Hobie Juniors have a Junior Olympic regatta out on the west coast to the OA for the regatta.

Thanks again!

Kudo's again to Rob and Greg who managed to work through the legal begle stuff about the full alu mast AND to get out there and support the F18 as a boat that both mixed and men's and women's teams could race with a full international championship that is balls tough to compete in.

The point that I have not seen followed up on is the opportunity to improve the proposal FROM TIGER SAILORS who have a stake in getting this right ...AND from the HOBIE YACHT CLUBS WHO NEED THIS RESOLVED to keep the racing going strong.

Sunshine and discussion are great ways to move the argument.

I noticed that the Bylaws statement was really very very similar to my very early post (number 3 or so).

How about the Tiger sailors stepping forward and working the proposal from that basis to improve it.

How about the OA's from the two divisions that have lots of Tiger racing sharing what the impact of a new policy would mean to their events.

The process will generate buy in to the final result. The non hobie world... (like me) will see the process and very likely ALSO buy in to the final result.

Good Lucks and thanks for the shirt!

I will gladly donate that $25 to a West Coast Based youth H16 program on your behalf if that's cool?

Shirt's yours though. Keep your dog warm, wash your car, doormat whatever.

j

Lots of stuff here, I'm not going to touch on things that have been answered already.

As for Madcatter being a points regatta or not, it does have an impact. This is an Area Championship, which is a step up a notch for normal points regattas, funds are provided by the HCA to take it up a bit, and points count 1.5 times normal. Under the current rules, these are required to be Hobie-only. Division 16 has strong rivalries for points totals. Not saying people would stop going if the points status went away, but it would certainly upset a lot of folks.

To my knowledge, there was no attempt to hide anything from the HCA membership. Posting here is not the same as giving information to our members, as many of you complaining the loudest here are not even members. The bylaws report was distributed to Division chairs, the real voting power in the HCA. From there, they are free (and expected) to share this info with their members, to decide how to proceed.

As others have noted, this is a subject ripe for emotional discussion, and Chris is really trying to conduct this in a rational manner.

Bob said, "There is however a benefit to be had by the two organizations working together so that regatta attendance can be maintained at a level that allows the events to remain viable. In fact this is exactly how every Regional Hobie Class outside of North America operates. No part of the HCA or IHCA bylaws prohibits this."

I'd like to hear more about this, perhaps this is the way to go with the proposal.

FOR THE RECORD: First, I'm just the membership dude, and have no vote. I don't have a Tiger. I'm from Division 12, which lost lots of Hobie sailors over the years (lots of reasons for this) to the point of now having only one points regatta, in ME. I have quite a few friends that now sail F18s, and only get to see them once or twice a year now.

I think the real long-term solution is to work harder to get more new sailors on Hobies. If having F18s at HCA events will help keep regattas from going away, I'm in favor of finding something that will work within the rules we're governed by, being very careful about what we change. I feel somewhat strongly that we should only open this invitiation to classes in which HCC manufactures a boat (in other words, no monohulls, etc.). BUT, we shouldn't kid ourselves that inviting the F18 class will solve all the problems, we really need new blood.

All of that is me speaking as a strong advocate of HCA. As a Race Officer, I don't care what shows up, if the OA invited you, I'll work like a dog to give you the best racing possible.

Mike

No, Hobie should stop trying to make SMOD classes from succesful formula classes.

The scene is diluted no because "new blood" doesn't find their way to the Tiger design, but because Hobie split the Tiger class off from its proper sailing class (the F18's) and creates so many sub classes.

There are over 20 differnt Hobie classes. What other thing then dilution do you think would have happened ?


The scene didn't leave Hobie, Hobie left the scene.

Sorry

Wouter

Maybe in Europe, but not in the U.S.

There's like 1-3/4 in the US. Whether this is Hobie's fault or not I can not say, but in a sport that is damn near dead this is the reality. We're a minority, within a minority, within a minority, (sailing, then those who actually race). I can't identify what it was that brought 100+ boats to average weekend regatta's, but I know sure as sh!t that those people don't exist any longer. Hell, I'm not sure I'd even participate if regatta's were that big. I'm seriously uncomfortable around that many people, and I'm prone to going hostile. Leave me in a big group for too long, I turn violent. Anybody who knows me will attest to this. Anyway, I don't think Hobie US neccessarily agrees with HCE and many fronts. HCE produces alot of bastard boats, I'm sure there is models that have to have the dust knocked off the molds just so they can build one.

The point is we need to bring in the people by whatever means neccessary, and not turning them away. I'm not sure this applies to inviting or working our way into typical events, but maybe thats a good solution for bringing people back in as well. Hosting a regatta with 10-15 boats is pathetic looking. I didn't realize this until recently. People are generally dumb, and are sheep, they'll do whatever everbody else is doing. Seeing something popular, makes it more so, and vice-versa(sp). This isn't neccessarily along the lines of the F18 debate, but the sport has been on the decline for a long time. Did the Hobie only rule at Hobie regatta's have an effect? And if so, did that change have a negative impact on the sport as a whole? Did that drive down the sales numbers for the very factory that supports those classes?

I really do love this sport, it has been my genisis in life. I've made some good friends. I've started to see the edges of being able to do it well, and that is really gratifying. I hope I don't see the end of it coming as well, because I'm not going to bother when its me and 3 other dopes sitting on an imaginary line waiting for a whistle.


I'm not actually allowed to post in this thread, and I'm sorry for doing so. The person I'm talking to knows who they are.

Damn, Karl. You need to stop taking naps in the afternoon. You're cranky.

A few years back at the US peak we had :

H14
H16
H17
TheMightyHobie18
H18SX
H20
H21
H. trifoiler
Tiger
Fox (although this died rather quickly)
FX-one
Wave
Getaway
Bravo


14 different designs/classes that I could write down in the span of 30 seconds.

Most of them have been terminated now that is true, but that was also sort of necessary.

Wouter

the IHCA classes include

Dragoon (ever raced in US?)
Wave (sparse HCANA racing)
14/14T (count as two, if you will)
16
17
FX-ONE (sparse)
18/18M/18SX/18Formula (18M/18SX sparse, F never)
Tiger
20
21
FOX (very sparse, there were what? five US boats?)

OK, so that's a total of 15 classes, (Dragoon & 18F are definite throw outs) but I'd count the number as six, those actually established as a class. And when exactly is this "peak"? 14 went out of production in what '94?...15 years ago.

All this being history, hopefully we're learning and moving forward? Even though I hope the order for ten sets of 18 hulls becomes a reality, truth is, the Hobie 16 is the US mainstay left standing.

Another couple of boats are needed to compliment the H16. Tiger/Wildcat/F18 and Wave are the only current (and strong) directions for the future. I'm excited to see focus in this direction (however painful) and actual steps being taken. I'll echo what everyone here doesn't want, when all us old farts here get too old to "get it up", that cat racing in the US doesn't just...fade away.

I'll also echo rhodysail, brucat and others sentiments that this F18 proposal will be massaged and re-submitted (and again if necessary) so there is a direction for the future. Can't leave just Karl and three other guys out there, that would be wrong. I'll trust cool heads will prevail.

Many of those came and went before others were introduced.
In North America, there are only these classes presently racing (followed by % of attendance at HCA Events):

Hobie 14 - 4%
Hobie Wave - 1% (does not include IWCA events)
Hobie 16 - 52%
Hobie 17 - 12%
Hobie 18 - 12%
Hobie 20 - 13%
Hobie Tiger OD - 6%

There were approximately 1,750 attendees at HCA sanctioned events in 2009.

Yikes, I hate it when there are statistics. Facts are sometimes hard to take.

How many events? (Just wondering what the average attendance was.)

+1 thanks Matt

So there's an effort in the upper plains states to move from the 14 to the 17? Let's make the 14 0% and the 17 16%? Move to a boat that is no longer in production? Only a band-aid.

Other "campfire" talk...buy up all the 20's and get them to the areas (plains/midwest) where they'll be raced? Another move to a boat that's no longer in production.

Unlike some classes in other parts of the world, and being SMOD, the class asociation is not going to get the molds for these boats. Classes need new boats to survive.

and "campfire" talk...these (future) discussions need to be held on the decks of yatch clubs, there's safety in numbers. The "five boats is a class" is a positive move.

sorry for regurgitating the obvious, that QT columbian supreme-o blend has me pumped

>>>Hobie Tiger OD - 6%


Yes, they are hard to take aren't they ?

Scrap that Tiger class (and Wildcat class) and just go F18.

Wouter

I counted (60) events, including 14 NAC's, 16 NAC's and the HavaMega (Wave, 17, 18, 20, Tiger NAC's)

So average of less than 30 people (attendees) per event? Or are these event w/in events?

Man, our sport is miniscule and getting smaller by the day. Meanwhile, I see fields full of kids playing soccer, baseball, football, etc. and the video game stores full of kids and adults tinkering with games.

Really, it is amazing any catamaran dealers like Jeremy can survive. Same could be said for low volume manufacturers--which is all beach cat makers. (At least Hobie has the rotomolded kayaks to sell.)

John, at the 15 or so campfires I have sat around with you, you are ALWAYS asleep. Maybe you were dreaming all that.
AND, you were the first of the group to get a 17.......so you're the trendsetter.

Wasn't the first Tiger raced in the Worrell 1000 ??

Gerard Loos from the Netherlands raced the first Hobie Tiger in this country. Team Nokia in the 1998 Worrell 1000. They did quite well until a massive storm on the Outer Banks. They lost the boat in the huge shore break (10-14 foot) at Kill Devil Hills.

If I remember correctly (I was ground crew that year) there were many restrictions on them bringing the Tiger to the USA. Since they did not have a Comtip, the boat could not be re-sold in the US, and they had to deliver the boat to a Hobie dealer in upstate NY after the race.

sleeping is a the sign of a "seasoned" (or out-of-shape) sailor On second thought, I have no earthly idea how Bommer and Taha can stay up so late drinking rum and still sail so well, let alone get just get up.
Maybe one of these days I'll actually sail that boat. BTW, the 14 is READY for Ocean Springs

NAF18 sticker Nov. 2, 2001

One of the early NAF18 Newsletter



Feb. 2002

An average in this case is a misleading statistic. Not all classes have the same number of events. There are two or three events that are way above average (for example - Madcatter for 16s, NACs for all classes) that skew the average.

There remain several locations where Tigers are raced OD in significant numbers - upstate NY and the Pacific NW are the biggest two. In those areas, they constitute a much larger percentage of attendees, but when you spread it out over the whole of North America, then they are only 6%.

1,750 unique participants or total added up at all the events (including repeats)? I'm not trying to degrade...I'm a statistic freak.

Total added up at all the events (including repeats).

Statistics usually are.

There are not known under the alternative name "legalized lying" for nothing.

Look at the stock market report for examples.

There are so many tricks one can employ to highlight the situation from a prefer perspective that it isn't even fun anymore.

Wouter

I remember watching that as it happened There was a great webcam that year - it updated every few seconds.

But this tiger /F18 issue involves 21 Tiger sailors in North America in two regions involving at most 6 Hobie Yacht Clubs who would change their policy.

Percentages obscure reality as well.

Mark,

I'm not sure where your numbers are derived from but we've got 21 Tigers known in the Pacific Northwest alone. 5 more in the Northern California Region. And that's just the Tigers!

We have tracked growth for 3 seasons now as we grew from 3 boats to the current 21.

I don't maintain the numbers on the Nacra's in the region. But there have been 10 showing for weekend sessions up in Vancouver, BC, so I'm told. Many more of both in the Southern California.

The Tiger/F18 issues involves the entire Division for us. Not just the Tiger/F18's.

Which is why we are taking great care to make sure we have all available opinions in our area regardless of which way they lean on the proposal. We're also very careful to ensure all of the available facts are presented.

Every member we have contact with has received copies of The Proposal, Hobie Class rules, NAF18 rules, HCA Bylaws, Bylaws Committee recommendations, and statistics in a Pie Chart showing number of data points and percentages for/against.

The only thing being kept private are the names. For obvious reasons.

A persons opinion is not disputed up here. However, the outcome of the proposal has often been disputed with great passion up here, and on that fact we can all agree.

Both sides can, and have looked at the same data and come to different conclusions. Only time will tell.

Respectfully,
Don Atchley
Hobie Division 4 Chairman
NAF18 Treasurer

Hey! I just look at the NAHCA Rankings which list 21 paid members of the Tiger class.... Racing in two regions of country. (See, your class website under rankings.)

The other region, Syracuse.. Rochester etc made the original proposal so you would think they would be in favor of their own proposal. The issue seems small, regional, and separated at opposite ends of the continent.
If nothing else... the vote should drive 2010 membership up!

"The Tiger/F18 issues involves the entire Division for us. Not just the Tiger/F18's."

Now this is the puzzle!... I would love to hear why a hobie 16 or other racer has an interest in the Tiger F18 class policy.



The proposal is really a save the local yacht club request.

The entire cat racing community has an interest in Hobie Yacht Clubs going strong and putting on good events. This is why the proposal is public and draws attention. If your Yacht Club does not need saving... Don't invite the F18 class!... Let those clubs that see themselves in some trouble attempt to recruit more boats.

In politics... it is usually called local control!

EDIT: BTW, this is just my response to Mark's point, I'm not saying that I'm against the proposal...

The F18 is NOT the ultimate answer to saving the events or class. Division 12 proved that several years ago. Bringing in high-end boats has the unintended consquence of taking up-and-coming, and/or advanced sailors off of existing cats.

That is fine, unless new blood is not coming in; in which case, this just delays the inevitable.

Of course, it could also accelerate it, if the classes which give up sailors to the new boats shrink to the point that the remaining sailors don't show up anymore. Ask anyone sailing a TheMightyHobie18, H20 or H21 that went from 5-8 boats at regattas to 3 or less.

EDIT: I know, the Tiger class in and of itself can have the same effect. My point is, the real answer is NEW SAILORS, not newer, faster boats. To get that, you typically need to start with simpler boats (H16, etc.).

We need more Wave and H16 sailors.

Mike

Division 16 is also very open with information on their website. Good to see.

OK Mike
No one argues that we don't need more new sailors... That is why it's crucial ... essential... critical to keep Hobie Yacht Clubs alive and viable. That is the reason for the F18 proposal... It says so!

Juniors and New racers can enter cat racing through Hobie 16 racing without killing themselves.

but linking new sailors, Tiger sailing and existing Hobie Classes...in some fuzzy way... Is this really your argument or your contribution to the discussion?

Do you really want to argue or even suggest that Hobie 16 sailors nationwide should want to shoot down a proposal that Tiger sailors in at least one of only two regions a) WANT and b} their HOBIE yacht club's want since it will keep them financially solid ...Because it will undermine the Hobie 16 fleet in their regions of the country??? W TF !

Hell with this reasoning... Why stop there... Why not just neglect the Hobie 20 class and force those guys backwards to Hobie 18's... or all the way back to Hobie 16's. ...

If you believe that class preservation is achieved by not supporting competing classes... then you would be better off by denying starts to Tigers period... Start with those areas that have none in 2010 ...

Is that the argument you or anyone wants to make?

Really, Mark? "I'll take reading and comprehension for 100, Alex."

Did anyone else read any of this into my post???

Mike

Yeah, I can see where Mark is in the ball park with his response to your post. Even though you say you're not against the proposal the content of your post clearly shows that you don't support it either (IMO).

Nobody is claiming the F18 proposal will save Hobie regattas. It just looks like a way to boost the F18 numbers at some Hobie only regattas making it more enjoyable for the F18 sailors and more financially viable for the hosts.

Also the argument that having X brand F18's at a Hobie regatta will cause the numbers in other Hobie classes to diminish is a red herring.

There is no red herring here, we have seen it happen. Division 12 was one of the first to adopt non-Hobie boats; our regattas no longer exist. This is not the fault of the non-Hobie sailors, but everyone, including the Hobie sailors that chose to stop racing. And, those who kept racing, unfortunately weren't effective in bringing in new sailors. Fleet 448 was doing the best job, but those numbers have been slowly diminishing as well.

That does NOT mean I am against this F18 proposal, BUT, I am not 100% in favor of it, either. We need to be sure that we are looking at the whole, big picture to keep this sport alive in 5-10 years. That means LEARNING FROM OUR MISTAKES.

Read my prior post again. The mistake that I am referring to is expecting that bringing in new boats will solve the whole problem. The answer isn't necessarily to exclude the new classes (although that has worked in some areas), but to really focus on new blood.

Even before the Hobie-only rule, our Division 12 regattas were dwindling to a point of being barely sustainable.

This is really, really hard to discuss over the web without someone taking something totally out of context, but it's not much easier in person. I just want everyone to be sure that they don't expect the F18 (or any other "quick" answer) to solve this problem long-term. It may help in the short term, which is also very important, but efforts need to be made immediately to figure out how to get new sailors onto our boats, not our existing sailors onto new boats.

Mike

Hasn't this conversation, or a variation thereof, been going on for at least 20 years?

Who said F18 IS the ultimate answer?

Personaly I think it's just another tool in the shed.

I agree Bob, but we need to be aware of the unintended consequences so we can proactively work to prevent them. As I said above, if bringing in the F18s helps keeps events alive long enough to allow us to turn the tide on overall Hobie numbers, I'm all for it; but I'm not convinced this will be the case. Again, that doesn't have to mean voting down this proposal; rather, HCA needs to focus our work on bringing in new Hobie sailors and/or bringing back old ones.

If we can pull that off, Mary, it will be the key difference from the past 20 years. Otherwise, the F18 will be just another band-aid as the patient (HCA) slowly dies. EDIT: That is, of course, if you believe the hype that this is the only way to keep regattas afloat in a few places in the country, as several people have mentioned.

Mike

In ten years we will be a Hobie 16 class. The Hobie 16 class is not big enough to play by itself (and it will not grow fast enough). We need friends. Any questions?

democracy is very boring without social discourse

No, just a statement. If we keep approaching this the way we have, we won't even have a Hobie 16 class in 10 years. We need new people to sail Hobies more than we need new (complex) boats for them to sail.

Mike

uhh... you do realize that if you solve the F18 problem... you also solve the WAVE split... Hobie regattas simply host Wave Formula regattas.... (when they can find a critical mass of Wave Racers to attend)

This regatta issue is EASY!

Solve it quickly so you can figure out how a WAVE racing class attracts new sailors... Often claimed... rarely shown to be a self actualizing process.

Because Hobie and the Hobie class are in a conundrum. They have a racing model to maintain, admirably and rightfully so for the benefit of the new sailors, a very tightly controlled and extremely slowly evolving one design racing class.

Their competition (and to some extent, some parts of their own company) do not put as much effort into keeping things the same but they evolve their boat designs and boat offerings much faster. This appeals to the sailor looking for something "newer" or "faster".

The problem is that these two philosophies don't mix well when the available sailor base is limited. It fractures both. The fracture directly impacts the Hobie classes more directly in the short term (sailors jumping to other classes) and the other manufacturers long term (as the influx of new sailors).

That would be just about anybody my age. <30

The solution IMHO are formula classes. With box rules that do not change for years as to not obsolete old boats. And that's the reason why the F18 is such a success.

Do you really think the suggestion is that we stop looking for new sailors?
This proposal has nothing to do with new (complex) boats. F18's have been around for years now. If people want to sail them they will. The F18 class doesn't need the HCA to get itself off the ground.
This is about two classes going to the same place on any given weekend to ensure critical mass, and to give the Tiger sailors a real fleet.
It's that simple.

Yes Bob you are probably right inclusion is the way to go to insure #'s at some regatta's can be increased.Still not sure what the long term solution is for getting new sailors into the fold.Pretty sure going to a regatta with 10-12 Hobie 16's is not the recipe for generating a lot of attention.

We're looking to you for that one Mike

"Do you really think the suggestion is that we stop looking for new sailors?"

No, never said that. Perhaps you need to read through my posts again. All I am saying is that regardless of how many different fleets we bring into this, there will be no one left to sail Hobies if we don't make that the priority.

Mike

Isn't that already the priority?
Isn't that always the priority?

That is the most insightful, accurate and prophetic summation of the situation as it exists today that I have yet read.

Questions are easy, it is solutions that are, and will continue to be, difficult.

Solutions will require "out of the box" thinking, along with old tried and true methods.

The only thing for sure is that doing what we have been doing for the past several years and expecting a different result is sheer folly.

Divisive and combative flame wars on these forums has proven to make the situation worse.

We are all worshiping in the same church, just different pews.

In my opinion, Nigel Pitt was on the right track several years ago.

We NEED to find ways to come together and celebrate the things we have in common as multihull sailors instead of focusing on our differences.

We ALL need to find ways to be more inclusive and less exclusive.

Changing the rules for JUST the F-18 Class is putting a band aid on a bullet wound. While it may be a step in the right direction is not going to materially change the situation as it exists today.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think we should be going back to an open policy. We need to be selective about who we partner with. The fact that Hobie builds two F18 models should make this easy.

Remember Bob I am low on the Totem pole,it will not be myself making any decisions only recommendations.I still think it will require some revised Bylaws (which should be no big deal).

VERY WELL SAID.

So, you want to be selective about WHICH class should be included ?

That is just a modified way of being EXclusive, and dooms us, (enthusiasts of organized catamaran regatta's) to a slow painful death.

If we are to include just one class of boat, it seems rather short sighted to include the ONE Class where there are multiple manufacturers competing for the same customer dollars.

I think in some circles that is called "biting the hand that feeds you"

It is a step, and it increases numbers at events.

When numbers get lower events won't happen.

When you have nowhere, or less "wheres", to invite the new sailor to, then what?

+1 should be easy. Let's get it done.

I'm not hearing an alternative plan/s...???

The key is that we partner only with established classes. The problems we had in the past stemmed from the fact that the invitation was open to every one-off design on the market. This allowed new classes to use the HCA to build their new class from scratch. This made it too easy for a new catamaran class to get started and as a result we had too many classes and not enough sailors to fill most of them.

(You also start to have a bylaws problem when the established classes do not include Hobie built boats. In my opinion this is not a problem with F18's and Waves)

F16. It's just a matter of time until Hobie licenses an existing builder.

Easy fix. Check a box for the boat(s) you own, you can only vote for changes that are either pertinent to your class, or the association as a whole. If you're a member, and crew, tough titty, you don't to get to vote on a class unless you are at least a partial owner.



I don't think so. HC US thinks it'd be competition for the H16 which other than they both float they don't have much in common. He's probably right when it comes to the general public buying a catamaran though.

Mike and Bob,
Division 12 has nothing to offer to any class. The local F-18 class does not even need NENSA. The F-18 class attends most of the top shelf regattas as a standalone class. No paper YC can compete with the American YC, Sail Newport, Hyannis YC and The Buzzard Bay Regatta. The only way a class will survive in the Northeast is to work to get into these Regattas.
Barry

I thought the only successful sustainability model has been attract non-racing sailors by promoting fun (non-racing events) and solicit heavy participation by the racing segments in the form of offering assistance (crew, tuning, boat handling, etc). Then, once "prospective racing" sailors get comfortable, lure them on to the fast boat / racing group. Does this model still work?

What are racing associations doing toward this end?

As far as adding new types/classes... aren't all these "tools" doing the same thing? It's one thing to have a tool box with a saw, hammer, drill, screwdriver, etc. but an entirely different issue if the tool box just has a hundred different types of screwdriver.

I will not argue that Hobie needs to open herself up to SMOD classes of others to allow these to grow at the expense of her own classes/products.

Point in fact, neither is the Nacra 20 OD going to support the Hobie Fox class or the F17 class going to support the FX-one or iCat. Not even when both classes are basically build around identical specifications.

Such a thing would indeed by non-sensical from a Hobie perspective and the larger catamaran scene will also not be helped much by such action.



It will already be a major step when Hobie supports the F18 class as a F18 class and not some OD class of their own (Tiger SMOD; Wildcat SMOD). Similar reasoning with respect to the Wave. Form one single class that includes all and supports all. After all, Rick and his friends made this Wave class when Hobie was not interested in growing it in that direction. One can not just shut them out now when they have worked hard to create this demand for the boat. Same with the Tiger, the F18 sailors founded and grew that class to the premier catamaran class that it is now and there was no reason for the Tiger to go its own way.

I also believe Hobie can live by a simple criterium.

It will be enough when Hobie will support only those classes that in return also support HOBIE products. This implies, true formula classes like a A's, F18 and F16's but not the F17's. There is no reason for Hobie to support the Nacra 20 One-Design as Nacra doesn't support the Hobie Fox. There can be however reasons for hobie to support the F16 class as that class will also fully support any compliant product build by Hobie; either built now (Hobie MAX) or in the future (Shortened Hobie iCat).

Note in this respect that if Hobie can built and market the iCat then Hobie can also build an F16, there is practically no meaningful difference between either product. They only have to produce 250 mm shorter hulls (less then a foot) and the design will be F16 compliant.


Therefore that can be the deal. Hobie supports classes that are supportive of Hobies in return. Promotion for such classes helps everybody (the whole catamaran scene) but also Hobie itself. It is also undeniable that other classes like the F16 class (as the F18 and A-cats) will be supportive of a Hobie Wave entry class. Such a class is missing at the moment and making it a succes will help us all.

We have to get past the narrow thinking of unrelated SMOD's and look for the bigger pictures were indeed competiting products can be mutually supportive.

I see a nexus forming around the Waves (F12), A-cats, F18's, F16's and some intermediate youth boat like the SL16/Nacra500/Hobie16/Dart18. Those last 4 designs should be made to merge into one relatively tightly controlled modern looking formula or OD class around the same specifications that is open to all builder either under license building or the formula concept. It will help the Wave alot when something along the lines of license building can also be set up there.

Wouter

The Waves are certainly welcome at GYC. Our next big regatta is April. Plenty of time to plan.

Do you have a date?

I obviously hope that NAHCA lets those handful of Hobie Yacht Clubs do what they want and offer starts to F18's and Waves... and those clubs that want to only do Hobie Tiger starts keep on with their program. I do HOPE that enough of those F18 and Wave sailors want to come and go racing with Hobie Yacht Clubs, more importantly.... the interest in supporting Hobie Yacht Clubs persists for years to come..

BUT, I won't let Bob's faulty conclusions shape the ongoing debate. Especially when Open Class Racing in 2010 is a RED HERRING.



Otherwise called open class.. This One -off design class provided racing for Hobie 21's, Hobie 20's. Hobie 17 sports and any other Hobie boat found in the USPN table who could no longer .. if ever... make class... These boats are infamous one-off's that no one has ever seen.

By 2010... the inconvenient problem is essentially over! These old boats are now much older and along with other dead boats from Prindle, Nacra, Mystere, are no longer being campaigned in many regions of North America ... At most they stagger out to the starting line for a special race once or twice a year. Open Class racing is a Red Herring.

Open class racing, on the Chesapeake has changed from 9 or 10 events a year... to three. We have two days of Distance Racing. (Race to Oxford) and two Open class starts at summer weekend dinghy regattas. The idea is to get 3 boats each from the surviving One Design classes and get at least 10 boats on the start line... These three Open events give the "one off" or in my words... dead boat society members a few opportunities to go racing on the weekends... The idea is that a new cat sailor is likely to have bought one of these old race boats... when they get the bug to .."see what it would be like to go racing... They will have a couple of weekend races to catch the bug.

Surviving OD classes are Hobie 16, Hobie 17, Hobie 18, A class, F16 class, Nacra 20.... The last two are essentially club One design classes. Oh, and the irony of it all... The major Open Class Race is the AREA C Qualifier for the HOBIE ALTER US SAILING CHAMPIONSHIP!

Hobie had a choice... Properly MANAGE the downsizing (Sounds like what you are trying to do now)... or pretend that good management was to stand on the flying H and yell "STOP... NO MORE..the one off boats are undermining our class and racing and must be tossed". Hobie's management guru's thought that by kicking out non Hobies that their racing and clubs would stop sliding downwards and stabilize on this magical plateau of One design racing. They had the wrong diagnosis and the slow slide to becoming a Hobie 16 only class continues unabated.



REALLY... What new class would that be?

The growing classes are F18's, A class, and F16's. Most of these sailors thought they were HELPING HOBIE FLEETS BY GOING TO THEIR RACES. Hobie mistakenly thought they had a monopoly on catamaran racing ...That sailors, faced with running their own small regattas, would get back on board with Hobie One Design Racing. So..the sailors in the three new classes simply partnered with Yacht clubs who welcomed them as new members and are willing to run more races then we have sailors.

Hobie Paper Yacht Clubs will be competing with Yacht Clubs with facilities for sailor participation.

Bob is asking the wrong question. It's not what other classes should Hobie classes partner with... rather, it's what Yacht Clubs should Hobie Yacht Clubs partner with in their region to have catamaran racing and their own organization survive.

April 10 & 11.

Just a question, in the long history of Hobie sailing, has there ever been another boat that wanted to race against the Hobies?
What about when the P16 came out, or when the N5.2 came around. Who were they racing?
When I bought my 5.2 in 1990 and attended my first race, I never remember being told I couldnt compete, and Im sure I was attending a HCA regatta, I remember all the Hobie swag being given away.
Ive been told at my home club there was a Hobie regatta that had 200 boats, early 1980's, Pam Walker Memorial I believe. Surely there wouldnt have been any need for HCA to allow misfit boats, but where did they all race?

Mark
Wow where to start.
First off you are right that some of the one-offs were Hobie Cats. Some were not. The 18HT got quite a bit of help from the HCA. When the HCA pulled the plug it was clear that the F18 or the 18HT would survive, but not both.
I think that you don't understand what I mean by "the problem". The problem was that Hobie Cat sailors had (in many areas) lost control of the Hobie Class Association (ie: we had a Nacra 20 sailors as the HCA Chairman). Obviously if you are the organization that runs events for everyone then everyone wants to have a say in the organization. That makes perfect sense but that was not what the Hobie Class was meant to be. The result was that a hard line had to be drawn in order for Hobie sailors (one-off Hobie's included, as well as the Wildcat I might add) to get their class back.
The result was predictable and was predicted. Most people (myself included) did not expect the "magical plateau" that you mention.
So, we have our class back and the question is how do we go forward. In my view the hard line is not so necessary anymore. We took the hit we needed to take and now we can moderate.
How do we do that? Well we have a bunch of Tiger sailors who want to race F18. Can we do that by the bylaws? I think so because we are supporting the Hobie Cat sailors (see bylaws).
What's the potential down side? In my opinion the potential downside is that the HCA would turn into the F18 class just like it turned into the North American Catamaran Association.
Do I think this will happen? No I don't. The reason is that the F18 class has reached a point where it is an established class and will stand on it's own. You see when you have two established classes a partnership is possible without one organization being absorbed into the other, that's key.

Now to answer your point about what yacht clubs the HCA should partner with, that is already starting. The first step in moderating the One-Design policy was to start counting open yacht club events as some points regattas. This has been in effect for only a year but preliminary reports are all positive.

Barry is right, in Division 12, the F18s don't "need" the HCA or its regattas.

In and of itself, allowing other cats into Hobie regattas is not the problem. The problem comes when there is no new blood. The F18 proposal is OK, since it uses Hobie-made boats, and will bring in some new sailors already sailing F18s.

I don't have time for a lot of discussion about that right now, but to answer any lingering questions about what my point is in this thread; when we see a substantial plan that can be implemented across the country to get new people sailing Hobie Cats, that will be a great day in the history of the HCA. Yes, I have some ideas, but we really need to get a gathering of the minds across the region.

Mike

I'm sorry... can I see your active catamaran sailor membership card?

And while we are at it... Jay we need to see your paperwork as well.

I am not a member of any group. If EMSA asked for dues I would gladly pay them as they are the only group in my area that provides racing and supports cat racing.
I have been in this sport since the late '70s. I attended regattas were 100's of boats showed up. I remember A,B and C fleets. And interestingly enough I have always owned Hobie product.

In my experience NACRA, Mystere or any brand other than Hobie has ever been active at the local regatta level. If I wanted to race NACRA only or NACRA SMOD where would I go?

Hobie has every right to protect their turf! If not for Hobie would there even be cat racing in the US?

I know NACRA has a race week every year, other than that are there NACRA regattas? I also see the formula classes holding regattas but no manufacturer involvement other than Hobie.

I have said this before, growing cat sailing requires manufacturer involvement. At this time Hobie would rather focus on selling yaks than cats. I participate in several "extreme" sports and have contact with 100s of others in those games. Unless they grew up at the coast or near water they know nothing about cat sailing and see it as something old people or rich people do. They don't see it for what it can be, EXTREME! This is why there is a shortage of new blood.

I am not a fan of light air sailing and have no fun if its not blowing. As a result I wait until right before a race to decide if I am going or not. I have introduced sailing to all my nephews but they have little to no interest in racing due to the common light air on lakes but they love to go hauling butt across the ocean in 15+ kts. I am currently working on a TheMightyHobie18 to give to one of them with the intent of him racing it this upcoming year. I am also teaching my 10yr old nephew to enjoy cat sailing and hope to be crewing for him one day!

Bob

A suitable class to partner with???!... in 2010?

Once again, You and NAHCA are using the wrong model/paradigm to manage the Classes and Hobie Yacht Clubs you micromanage.

Facts on the ground are the only things that matter looking forward (ignoring the past specifically our differences in describing or analyzing it) Consider:

Yacht Clubs own the water access and cat sailors will need to adapt to this world... or be left high, dry and dead! IMO, Your NEW Yacht Club policy is about 10 years LATE and COMPLETELY INADEQUATE for the pressing problem.

In Dan Delave's Original Post.... He was mildly disappointed with what he thought was a final decision on F18's. But in his part of the world..... Tiger /NAHCA stuff is irrelevant. He has too many yacht clubs asking to host F18 regattas then he has sailors. Just like the Chesapeake, New England, and the South. Hobie NAHCA Control of Hobie racing at the Hobie Yacht Club level was and has been irrelevant... ! IMO, It's silly to talk about what is a suitable class to partner with in this 21st century world. ... as Rick White of the IWCA waves said... "Hey we are fat dumb and happy and don't need or care about NAHCA organized racing opportunities". The F18 Class, per John Williams is ambivalent about a change in policy. F16 Class.... They are looking at YC's to host them. A Class?... no chance in hell....

Nevertheless, I am very glad that you (collectively) feel you are back in control and can loosen up on micromanaging Hobie Yacht clubs and what classes they host. (For the record, I think your F18 Bylaw problem is a paperwork problem which is solvable pretty quickly). Getting the F18's to Syracuse, Rochester etc is a good step ( I hope they go). But, PLEASE get the dink back on course and address the most worrisome part of Dan's original post!



Let me guess.... He is talking about the Hobie 16 sailors who are ACTUALLY freeloading on the Yacht Club system in So Cal...

I really want to make this point again! When Hobie Paper Yacht Clubs ARE competing with Yacht Clubs for sailor participation. HOBIE WILL LOSE! (Real bathrooms TRUMP porta potties for women 99.9% of the time).

"Classes to partner with" is a silly paradigm when it comes face to face with the real world issue of a porta potty and my wife!

It's not what other classes should the "Hobie association" partner with... rather, it's what Yacht Clubs should Hobie Yacht Clubs partner with in each region to have catamaran racing and their own organization survive.

Minimally, the NAHCA should REFOCUS and RETHINK their relationship with the existing Yacht clubs in this country. Do you want to compete for participation with them? Do you think that Paper Yacht Clubs that take over public beaches one weekend a year is a program that will attract new catamaran sailors and new catamaran racers in the 21st century? Which is easy to find for a newbie... a Hobie Paper Yacht Club racing for one weekend at Gunpowder St Park in early May or a Yacht Club in Annapolis...called the Annapolis Yacht Club (for example)?

At the very least NAHCA should make it clear that Hobie Fleets and Hobie Class members should join their local Yacht clubs when they use the Yacht Club system to support their racing (eg So Cal). Leadership by NAHCA should guide new partnerships in the future in areas where it can be developed or strengthened ... NAHCA must have a robust philosophy about how to integrate their paper yacht clubs with the existing Yacht Club world... It's not just adult racing... but also junior sailing would be enhanced dramatically as well.

Finding a way to keep what is an essential piece of catamaran racing experience in America... the Hobie Beach Regatta as well as the existing and future partnerships with Yacht clubs is the only future that I can see. Either you put in place policies and directives that makes this happen or you will find your selves on the outside of the Yacht Club system and the Hobie 16 only class will fade to irrelevance.

Tying in with YCs certainly has a lot of benefits. Did you mention showers?

The frustrating thing is, at least around here, we can't get cat sailors willing to commit and pre-register for events. It's embarrassing to keep asking for a spot at an event, only to have only one or two boats make the attempt to pre-register by the deadline.

We also don't want to live in the real world in terms of what it should cost to enter an event. We're too demanding of $40 entry fees per two-person boat, for a two-day event. Yeah, right...

I understand that cat sailors tend to be "rebels" or whatever, but this is one area where it really hurts us. The F18s seem to have realized that they need to accept this, kudos to them.

Mike

I teach you everything I know, raise into a good little sailor, trick into you a racing with me in the Tybee, then you throw me in a nursing home when Im no longer needed. It sux being old.
Im presently in negotiations for another cat, so be prepared to get spanked again by the old guy!

Mark

First of all I don’t manage the class. I am the FORMER chairman. Basically I’m just loud and opinionated, something we both have in common.

Yes our new yacht club policy is late. It may even be inadequate. But it was passed by the HCA Board and only by a hair so I’d say we pushed it just far enough.

Many leaders in the HCA have been pushing the YC thing for a long time (and Barry is right about the North East by the way) but as Mike point out it’s a tough sell in many areas. Some areas are embracing the YC scene and it’s working out great. Talking to Rob (it’s Rob’s proposal we’re talking about) a few nights ago he pointed out that they don’t have much of a YC scene in his area to tap into. This makes his proposal all the more important to Div 16.

BTW: Div 11 (your area) has plenty of YC regattas but they are One-Design events.

So basically I think a balance of things would be good for the class right now.

OK OK OK...now look. You checked yourself into that nursing home. I had nothing to do with that...I did put a sweet looking bling bling fix on your old rudder arm though. ;-)

Tell me it's not a SC20TR.....

Hi Bob

Yes.. we are both opinionated. I think of you as one of the major opinion leaders of the Hobie Class!. Hopefully our sunshine on the debate is useful in getting all sailors on board.

Balance... is a great way to describe what's needed right now. Hopefully, NAHCA will Identify a clear vision for the next ten years and slowly get the rank and file on board working towards the objective.

Sorry to have kept on the sidelines since I started this thread. I did not like the initial direction and tried to make it go away. It did not but has really gotten foothold. I like the discussion and concern of all participating. Thank you all for that!



As of right now, from my perspective, I see three strong classes of catamarans in the US. The A-Cat, Hobie 16, and Formula 18. From these you should be able to pick a pony you would like to compete on. A-Cat for those that like to solo. H16 for the Husband/Wife, Boyfriend/Girlfriend, anyone who would like to sail with their light child. Formula 18 for the mostly Guy/Guy teams (adrenaline junkies). I know there are parts of the country that will embrace other boats, Wave, F16, other Hobies, Nacra I20 for example. Regarding overall racing, I am sorry I could not include any of those in this list. It may not be in the NAHCAs best interest to embrace my list, but it may be in the Yacht Clubs interest to consider it. The boats I mentioned can, in most areas, make a fleet at a regatta. Usually only requires 5 boats. This will increase participation at an event which has some fixed costs associated with it: Mark and committee boats, fuel, marks, lunch for volunteers. It is expensive to run a regatta so the more that show up the better.

The only way a Yacht Club could do it is to have many different classes participate. Do you think that every event has 20 or more of one kind of boat on the line? No. They have invited many types of boats. Each guarantees them at least 5 boats on the line for a start. There are several starts and after the first they usually roll so the sailors on the fast boats are not waiting all day for everyone to finish. I have run regattas. A critical mass is about 25. That is just about the break even for a low key regatta. You will need to have 5 classes if you are only getting 5 boats in each class. Count the number of boats you can get at an all Catamaran regatta in each class in your area and you may see a problem. Include the sailors who have never even thought of a catamaran as an option and you can see it would be easier to get a good number for a regatta.

Catamarans are exciting to watch! Especially, if you are watching them speed around while hanging off the rail of some other type of boat. Since racing cannot be watched very well from the shore how do we promote sailing? By catching other sailors interest enough to get off of those other boats and onto a cat. I know that this does not seem like a fair way to do it but there are sailors and there are non-sailors. We will only get interested parties (sailors) to pay attention to what we have. Imagine what they think when you are racing by them going to the same mark? There may a lot of “rail meat” wondering how they could have their own boat as they watch you slingshot by them.

Numbers make it interesting. If there are 50 boats on the beach and the water it is attention getting. If there are 3 it is just a nice photographic opportunity.

Dan DeLave