Boat recommendation for new 400lb team to Cat Racing

I am looking at the various cat classes with the hope of racing with my daughter. I have sailed finns in international competition and raced cats in my youth. I think if I work hard I can get down to 225lbs. My daughter is a strong 6'0" and weighs about 165 lbs. I think as a team we will weigh in at 400lbs. I want to sail in the most popular class possible that will allow us to be competitive. I would also want a starter boat in the class that is less exotic and will take some punishment. Any suggestions on a class and a specific type of boat? I do want to race a class of boat that utilizes full sails. I live in Oregon which is a 5 hour drive to San Francisco. I can also race in LA and Seattle. Any help in choosing a class and a starter boat would be appreciated.

That area Tiger. 15 racing in division 4 and 7 racing in division 3. Your going to be heavy at 400 but a good sailor can make it work. I'm in Humboldt county with my tiger and race all the division 3 events as well as a few outside the hobie scene.Feel free to contact me via im or e mail if you have any other questions.

Tiger. Up there, best choice. No bias from me. Trust me. Tiger.

Thank you. Where do I find a good used boat? Is there a preference to what year Tiger you buy? Is there a year to stay away from?

This website has a classified section
there is http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/index.php
craigslist, ebay, peoples back yards

there is a hobie forum (hobie.com) that is a good place to look

my friend just sent out a notice to a Mystere's group on yahoo and got a sweet deal on a 6.0.. and was driven down from michagain to him.. maybe you could get lucky too with an email to the tiger groups online

The boats are all pretty equal. Main difference is the 2008 had a new rudder system. I'll check local and see if any are available. Also the classifieds here or Jeremy at Surf City Catamarans can usually find a boat. Also the Hobie forums sometimes has used boats.

New Tigers are around $17,500 (est)
Used with STX sails are about $9000
If you want the newest and latest
The Wild Cat is about $22,500 (est) no real class yet other than F-18.

From the Catsailor classifieds.

2003 Tiger -- w/ trailer in good shape always covered, SNU, New Boom, 2 chutes, Heavy Duty trailer with large Catbox & separate sail tube $8000 714-791-9437 SO.CA. (CA)(Nov)
2006 Hobie Tiger -- excellent condition, SNU Spinnaker , Custom Sunbrella covers, race upgrades! - MBYC, San Diego, California, Don Ross (949) 547-2859. $10,995. rossmail at cox.net (CA)(Nov)

400lbs - c'mon guys that's 30kg overweight for F18! Are you taking the piss out of him?

i20

He is right, I20 is the boat for you...problem is there is no racing in Oregon for that boat (except 2 handicap races).
If you go with Tiger (one design Hobie racing), you will have to use Hobie one design sails (correct me if I am wrong). If you look at F18, you can order sail to more match your weight (although you are still too heavy to seriously compete). You could race MOST races in So Cal, ? in No Cal, and SOME races in NW as a F18. More boat options open up to you if you go F18.
If you daughter can skipper, you could double your pleasure-double your fun by going 2 "A" cats. Great racing in So Cal (Long Beach), No Cal (Santa Cruz), and Pacific Northwest. Avoid all the political BS as to what races you can attend with which F18 boat.

There are a couple of things to consider - he mentions wanting to sail in a popular class. Broadening on Rich and Chris' suggestion of the Tiger, I think he would find newer F18 designs more weight-tolerant, both in buoyancy and power. Some platforms carry weight better than others and the racing is equal; 400 is a little much for any F18, though. The problem is that there aren't other options for a popular double-handed multihull with a competitive fleet that will carry 400-pounds in his area. There are some Nacra 20s in the San Diego area, but they don't travel.

I'd recommend F18 (not just the Tiger) to meet his stated needs.

....


You've tried to convince me otherwise JDub

I tried to convince you that a good team can sail an F18 very well at 400-pounds. I even named names. But I never argued that it was optimal weight. The latest boat and sail designs penalize teams at minimum weight and make it possible for bigger teams to be competitive. Once a hull is out of the water and the lighter teams start depowering, the big boys start going to work in a big way. Look at the Tradewinds results for F18s. None of the top three are under minimum - I'd bet they're all around 345 or so. In the conditions you had, an accomplished 400-pound team would have really done well, I imagine. The problem for a bigger team comes when the breeze is around eight or nine instead of 15 knots - lighter teams start flying a hull sooner.

The only reason I suggested the tiger was he said most popular racing. The pnw f-18 fleet is mostly tigers 20 to 5 I believe. Nor cal is all tigers 7-8 with 1 local nacra. No west coast F-20 / I-20 in the north. His question was the most competitive fleet with a more durable boat.
The tiger fits these requirements. If he wants the best most tricked out I'd say Wildcat or the C2. If there was a Nacra-20 class here I'd recomend that.
We can usually run mid pack at 385. If I don't screw up driving.

Chick Parsons:

You mentioned that you are looking for a starter boat to get into a competitive racing fleet. I don't care what boat you buy, if you are look at a competitive fleet it will probably take you a year to get up to speed in any new class. Pick a catamaran or Laser: a competitive fleet will be hard to break into the top.

If you are looking for a starter boat then you are probably looking at used. In your first year: Will you be competitive at 400lbs on a Formula 18? no. Will you be competitive on a Formula 18 at minimum weight of 330 (big sail plan)? no. My only guarantee is that you will have FUN! You will have some good legs and some bad legs during your racing. Get this, you will always be sailing faster than you ever have in the conditions you are in.

You will have a year or so to figure out the fleet and decide what boat will be your next step. If you find a boat of the right price you will not lose to much on the resale and it will give you valuable incite. Just get a boat and come out sailing. The group in your area does sail mostly Tigers but not only Tigers. They are a great group of guys and I would encourage you to contact them.

I look forward to meeting you at the regattas. I sail with Eileen and it will be nice to get more women on the race course. You are very lucky that you will be able to sail with your daughter.

Later,
Dan DeLave
NAF18 West Coast Rep

They should get two Waves and sail on separate boats. That would solve the whole problem.

Haha...you have to be joking. Not knocking the Wave per se, but it is not a race boat, although the race fleet is pretty decent. If you want a fun single hander, go A-Cat. Otherwise, get a spin boat. In that weight range, it's F-18 or N20. Given the popularity of the Tiger in your area and the lowish cost to entry, I would go that route. Are you going to be competitive on that boat in that weight range at World's? No, but you can definitely sail the boat and do fairly well locally if you learn how to sail. To prove my point, I got my butt kicked sailing a N20 at 400lbs vs. another two N20's with crew weights below 380 lbs, in a consistent 25 kts of breeze. This really showed me its the guys/gals sailing the boat, not weight per se. That being said, in under 10kts, the lighter guys really take off (usually me, my normal crew and I weigh in at ~365 lbs on the N20).

as a heavy weight cat sailor I can confirm , extra weight aint good , lightweights with umpteen million to one downhauls , modern cut sails and rigs can hang in upwind and then dissapear offwind , any minor advantage of weight upwind is more than offset by the MAJOR disadvantage offwind .
Heavyweights can win , but you have to sail a flawless race , hit every shift up and down ,catch every gust , boat handling spot on and rely on the lightweights making a mistake , at top level this aint going to happen , but possible at club and area racing

or curiously in drifters I've never found weight a handicap at all.

How often do you tack on one windward leg, since you say: "hit every shift up and down" (seriously)

200lbs is 200lbs. Use it or loose it

irrelevant really either 1 or 3 in course racing upwind , praps same down wind point was that fattys have to get these spot on to gain any advantage over lightweights going faster and hoping the tack gybe in wrong places ,times or badly executed.

I weigh 118kgs , average cat sailor is 75kgs (according to schrs ) try carrying that difference down wind in any wind SCHRS roughly equates 10kgs of "boat weight" to a performance advantage/disadvantage of 1% approx , schrs formula is considered to be pretty good at assessing these differences .

118kgs = 260 llbs
75 kgs = 165 llbs
10 kgs = 22 llbs

Chick,
I've sent you a PM.

Contact me for information on Tiger/F18's in the Pacific Northwest.
I am weighing in myself at 220# and race the Tiger very competitively when I practice.

Tigers are the predominate F18 and have a strong OD program in the Pacific Northwest. We have over 20 Tigers racing in this region, and several Nacras out of Vancouver, BC.

You've got plenty of Dealer support for the Tiger in this area, and more racing than your schedule will probably allow.

Give us a call.

*KABOOM*

I just wanted to know how many tacks you made while going to windward on a "standard" W/L course

I weight in at 98-100kgs these days. In very light conditions I agree the lightweights have an advantage. In other conditions I dont care. The differences are not that large and in strong conditions the heavies gain on the featherweights. It all evens out over time and a making poor start is probably worse than carrying 10-20 kilos more than the other boat.
If one obsesses over weight in light conditions the race is already lost. Sailing is mostly a mental game (skill/knowlegde/attitude) so it is easy to lay the foundation for a poor race or even a poor season on the beach or while typing on a keyboard

I think we have had this discussion before so I'll leave it from here

(I am loosing weight these days but not becouse I want to improve on my sailing)

Thank you for all the input. The beauty of the Finn was that it ultimately came down to time on the water and a keen understanding of mast/sail combination to get to the first mark. The huge speed differences came off the wind, in the mid wind range, where everyone is a rock-star. Or rocking-star. It seems more ballast in the butt is concealed until you go off wind in the Mid wind range. I would always take limping upwind if I could hold my own downwind. I felt there may be an older boat design, with fuller hulls and larger sail plan, that has been dismissed by 85% of the crowd. It would have been a boat designed in a light wind area, that just was not controllable by the majority of smaller people that dominate the sport. I once owned a Super Cat that had huge hulls but the rig was poor. I dissagree with the one gentelman that talked about the length of time to become competitive. Some of my best races are when I know no one and they don't know me. Pecking order ruins many of race for the majority. I appreciate the input and will be looking for a boat. I have a picture of Paul Elvstrom in the Olympics with his daughter Trine sailing a Tornado. That is a priceless photo and I will want the same picture with my daughter Trine.

All the best to you.

His point was finding the boat that you can be comfortable with and its fleet takes about year. Sounds about right.