Let the debate begin...

Well, what was it?

1. Better skipper/crew? (starts, tactics, penalties, etc.)
2. Better boat? (Cat vs. Tri, curved daggers vs. straight)
3. Better rig? (wing vs. soft sails)
4. All of the above?

Totally and completely, it was a design contest in the spirit of Cap'n Nat. Truest America's Cup in 60 or 80 years, in my opinion.

It was:
1) A better engineered boat
2) A better engineered sail plan (wing and soft sails)
3) A better team effort to understand how to sail their boat in various conditions and points of sail and transitions

A5 failed on those points, came closest on #1, their sail plan, even given the soft sails was not well though out.

And, like John says, truly back to the roots of the Cup IMO.

All of the above in my opinion. Not that I have any room to judge but Erenesto should never have driven either day. I can't help but wonder that if A5 had a better start (without a penalty) if they would not have led around the first mark and could have defended the position the whole way down. I hope these two boats will live to race another day. They are truely magnificant beast in their own right. While I was rooting for BMW the whole time I must tip my hat to the boys on Alingi. Also classy was dropping their protest, whatever it was about after recognizing that at the end of the day they were beaten.

OK Match Racer wannabee's, in today's race, on the beat, when Alingi was ahead on starboard approaching the port layline with BMWO coming in on port;

Why didn't Alingi slow down, or bear off, or do -something- to cause BMWO to tack to starboard, thus slowing BMWO, forcing them into 2 more tacks, while rolling over them, then 1 tack onto the layline and lead BMWO in?

Why did they let them duck and just let them go?

It was clear to me the tri was faster when they just ran away from AL going downwind, the speed readouts always showed BMWO about 2-3 knots faster, just about all the time on the reaches, upwind they seemed about even.

I never saw the cat "Powered Up". To me it always looked like they needed more wind, less weight, I was surprised they were using any water balast at all. But they were constantly snake-waking trying to fly the hull, which is slow!

Both crews performed well on the course and both made mistakes in pre start (maybe Alinghi one more).

BMWO was most of the time the faster boat. What made the boat better?
BMWO has a longer true waterline: 130ft vs 101ft according to yachting world.
BMWO uses the full allowable width. (Why does Alinghi not?)

The wing. I think most will say that the wing was the key element. It is just so visible. But after the second race, I am not that sure anymore. The smaller platform could go more or less the same vmg upwind. Of course with stronger winds the picture would be different, but Alinghi showed a huge improvement and one might think where they would be, if they would have more boat to boat tuning, maybe even reviewed sail cuts. I account much of the advantage downwind due to the faster trimming of the wing. BMWO was more stable (I rate the helmsmen as comparable). On the reach leg, the longer and wider boat will always be faster, go on a reach with a T and you know what I mean.
There are also some other aspects in the rig: Uni vs sloop (on Friday), genaker with or without overlap, etc.

Curved vs. straight boards: Alinghis straight boards are canted. I guess there is little difference. ALinghi has both types, and we can assume that they selected the right one.

So in my conclusion the big difference came from the larger platform (on the reach BMWO was 5kts faster), the faster trimming downwind and the better prepared boat/team of BMWO.
Alinghi probably hadn't have the time to design and build a wing. But they must asked themselves why they selected a shorter and slimmer platform.
Behind each technology, there are men, which need to have the right understanding and ideas to make it. Hence: 3) "better team effort and understanding of sailing" which in consequence lead to 1) "better boat".

Cheers,

Klaus

I suspect A5's beam was limited by structural integrity. If you go wider and taller you must beef it up to handle the loads. I think that may have been why BMW went with a tri design. If it didn't have the center pod could it have handled the loads? Probably not.

All of the above plus they were just plan out sailed.

A Wingie killed Alinghi. The power and controlability of the wing won this event.

I was thinking the same thing when watching it.

However, during the A5 presser, BB said that they had wind that BWMO didn't have during that long starboard tack.

As they got in the same breeze you saw the situation change.

OK, back to my question about tactics; why did Alinghi not stick it to BMWO when they had the chance, at the cross going up to the pin? I would have made them tack, then pushed them waaayyy out past the layline, then tacked and ran away to the pin. It's worked for me many times in fleet racing, why would you let the only other boat in the race get by you, on port?? What were they thinking?

If you listened to Randy's comments at one point he was explaining the difference in BMWO's wing and A's soft sail. Noe I don't understand the math but he said that a soft sail had a ? Coefficient of 1.2 where the coefficient of The wing was closer to 2.0. And eluded to those numbers meaning that the wing is nearly twice as efficient. If that is indeed the case the wing played a huge part.

Aeroplanes stopped using "soft wings" wayyy back after WW1, about 1920 or so because the CL is greater with a solid wing vs. a one layer thick "soft sail" type ragwing WW1 biplane. Even hang gliders and windsurfers have switched over to the sails with cambered battens and a "fat" wing.

The tradeoff is supposed to be that you cannot adjust the amount of camber over a wide wind range with a rigid wing sail vs. a soft sail, but as you saw, BMWO had a fix for that with the midwing slot and the adjustable flap. And then there is weight, the wing sail weighs more and has lots more moving parts, so reliability is always an issue.

The wing was more efficient as we saw, but again, why, when there is only -one- other boat in the race, and you are in front of them, would you allow them to duck you on a starboard cross??

That's Match Racing 101.

There's only one other boat in the race. Your job is to hammer them, and then hammer them again, whenever possible, moreso if you know they are faster than you and you are one race down in a 3 race series.

So why didn't Alinghi take the shot when they had it?

That's a good question. I'm not sure Alinghi could have forced BMWO to tack, but she could have tried to ride close and attmpted to draw an offsetting penalty.

I'm not a match racing expert, but it sure seemed like BMWO had a much better understanding of match racing tactics than Alinghi.

Regards,
Eric

The certainly could have forced them to tack, just slow down a click and they would not have been able to duck and stay on the layline. BMWO would have had to either tack early, tack back, or duck way low, below the layline, then tack twice more to get back to it.

Either way, Alinghi let them off easy, without a fight, in a do or die race. Why?

I agree...not only did they let BMWO majorly off the hook, but they also massively overstood their own layline, as evidenced by their course coming into the mark. That coupled with the mess they made of the start makes you wonder who was calling their tactics....

Watch the replay(2:13:00 to 2:17:10). It was close. Maybe they didn't have the room. They were closing at 18-20 knots. It took Alinghi 20 seconds to tack, and longer to get up to speed (their fastest tack of the two races btw), they had a 104 meter lead when they crossed. Comments suggested at least 3 boat lengths to tack. I don't know Timbo, I don't do alot of match racing. . .

OK, there is one other boat, you don't care about anything but sticking it to that guy, especially if he is ON THE LAYLINE, ON PORT. I would have borne off and aimed right at them, yelling Starboard! all the way. They tack, you tack, you are now on the layline, you round, they have to tack twice to round. You just cost them two tacks and you might be able to hold them off downwind, but in this case, I think even if Alinghi had done that, BMWO was so much faster, they would have caught and passed them downwind. But Alinghy didn't even put up a fight, why not?

I think nobody on Alinghi knew anything about match racing...

I certainly don't know much about match racing. Just wondering though, BMWO fell off (borne off) early enough to establish his new course, to clear Alinghi's sterns (2:15:29), so Alinghi can now borne off and hunt BMWO? Really? Aren't rules in place to address this? Maybe we should give Spithill some credit here.

They kept on talking about how Ed baird should have been on A and driving but wasn't. whats the story with that?

Hunting is legal (to a point) in match racing.

Can make things a bit more interesting.

You've got to know your rules and ump calls - but when you've never seen anything like these two boats race before, how do you make the call?

Personally I think BMWO was the better boat BUT I think Alinghy lost the cup mostly on

-1- bad handling and tactics.

It wouldn't be the first time a slower boat won the AC by employing superior tacktics. Unnecessary pre-start penalties REALLY don't help and can have a huge effect on moral. Low speed tacks are also stupid to attempt on a cat this size (if not at any size). And what about the slow reacher set after rounding the mark in race 1 ? Rule of thumb in F18/F16 racing is that each additional second required to set the spi and make it draw costs you 10 mtr. It took A. about a minute to get that reacher drawing = 600 mtr out the door. BMWO's set was right on the mark.

-2- bad sail choice

Flying the genoa upwind against the wingmast. That just aggrevates the pointing disadvantage of a sloop soft sail setup. (overlapping) Genoa's always point lower then a blade jib. That much we know from lots of beach cat racing. Size of the jib is NOT that important as long as it is sufficiently large to achieve the positive interaction between mainsail and jib. Main is less likely to stall (boat settles down) and jib develops full drive at a much smaller angle of attack to apparent wind due to updraft of the mainsail.

-3- Having the disadvantaged design

There is no arguing that the Wing sail is superior on the downwind legs. The advantage upwind seems to be smaller as I think the A-cat wingmast experiment of Bob Hall in one of the recent A-cat worlds also indicated. The ability of the wing to operate efficiently (and not stall) at large angles of attack favour it especially on the offwind courses. Having said that A. could in my opinion have been more competitive with better handling and tactical choices. I saw a huge improvement of A. when comparing the 2nd race with the 1st. Was that the result of Loick Peyron at the helm (and also helped by some lucky windshifts) ?


End conclusion;

Alinghy was soundly beaten by BMWO on all fronts; tactics, handling and boat design

I also do think the AC is inherently unfair. The USA is afterall a collection of 50 (independent) states under a single name whereas all other nations must find the resources and technology inside a much smaller area with much smaller industrial bases. I think it was a great achievement of team Alinghy to even have build A5 in the mountainous region of Zwitserland. This nation is not known for their shipbuilding credentials or access to proper (offshore) testing grounds! Point in case; it was argued that they couldn't use 3D sails because the only sailmaker capable of making these at this size was located in the USA. I like team BMWO better for their presentations and willingness to provide proper online coverage and credit to the other team but Ernesto may have a point when he refers to the AC setup as favouring the USA.

Nevertheless A. was soundly beaten.

Personally I see no reason to favour the tri over the cat or to attribute the loss of A. to 10 feet less overall width. A. is also lighter and as we know the smaller F16's are as fast as the wider and heavier F18's. It is all in the ratio's and NOT in the absolute sizes.

I love BMWO wing and have alwasy had a thing for large tri's but I also think Alinghy has build an absolutely beautyful boat. I would have loved to have seen more tight racing between the two.

If only the two of them can now agree on BMWO putting their soft sail rig on, take E. of the helm in favour of Peyron and do a demo race series of 7 races as a promo. Let Alinghy get some experience in wit handling and then go head to head to show large multihulls can result in exciting sailboat match racing. Afterall both have sunk enormous amounts of money in these projects and it seems such a waste to have done so for only 2 races.

Wouter

Ohh, there is one thing I don't like about the sites like sailing anarchy.


Every gain made by BMWO is attributed to the design of DOGZILLA of the superiority of the BMWO crew and never to any favourable windshift.

while

Every gain by Alinghy is invariable "explained away" by refering to favourable differences in pressure or a "lucky" windshift.

They bitch endlessly about E. and A. but act themselves as a bunch of the greatest vinegar pissers I have ever met.

Do I like the personality of Ernesto ? I don't know, but I'm beginning to understand why he is giving the cold shoulder to any reporter from such fan bases.


I think the BMWO team themselves are alot more respectful of their opponents and the varying conditions then their fan base.

Point in case. When BMWO rolled up their jib in race 1 team A. won back alot of ground over the next 10 minutes. Spithill simply explained that such a sail change is always followed by a period of dialing in the rig to the new settings; obviously a thing team A. also had to content with when they switched over from the genoa to the solent jib (blade jib) and BMWO made great gains. On Sailing Anarchy this 10 minute stretch of losing ground by BMWO is simple ignored alltogether and they make it sound like removing the BMWO jib was like hitting the turbo boost button, when it REALLY wasn't. Of course they make a great point of saying the wing just motored over A. when A. made their sail change. Could it be that E. and fan bases like Sailing Anarchy deserve eachother ? I don't really see the latter occupying the high ground here (where team BMWO itself does)


Tell it like it is guys !

Wouter

You don't have to bear off and drive at them, you can also hold your course and ease sheets, slow down so they cannot duck so easily, to make them tack or go way below the layline. Either way, Alinghi did nothing to stop them.

And remember how BMWO ended up behind Alinghi in the first place, after having won the start? The also viloated Rule #1: Stay between you competition and the mark.

After having won the start they went way out to the left instead of tacking back to cover Alinghi. Alinghi got a good lift and BMWO missed out, ending up behind.

I dont know if this is a fact, but if A5 was as unprepared, not knowing what gave best VMG in all and any condition as it looked like, what have they been doing while sailing the boat?

I'm pretty sure that the only match racing rules that applied were the starts and the penalty system (and the last minute decision by the PRO to have starboard roundings). Fleet racing rules applied in all other areas - done so apparently out of concern for safety and handling. Alinghi couldn't hunt BMWO on that crossing because fleet racing rules applied there.

The other problem is that both boats tacked so slowly and when you are tacking, you have no rights until the new tack is established.

BMWO nailed the layline which kept Alinghi from being able to tack underneath them. They were too close to BMWO to be able to tack on their line because they wouldn't have get through the tack without incurring a penalty. Lastly, if they tacked too close above BMWO's line, BMWO could have (potentially) gotten a lift and/or steered more to weather also incurring a penalty to Alinghi. Alinghi had to get far enough away from BMWO to do her tack.

So you're saying that was the best possible move for A.?

It was all they had without standing a substantial risk of another penalty.

Hmm, rules again. If BMW/O was already on the layline, would they be allowed to sail above it?

I thought A. could have tacked sooner.

Oh come on, that implies that BB knows a little something about getting around a race course, that can't be can it? (yes that's my flavor of sarcasm)

Butterworth was on the boat? My questions are more about understanding the rules than second guessing the tactics.

Crew List

Bow 1: Piet van Nieuwenhuijzen (NED)
Bow 2: Curtis Blewett (CAN)
Bow 3: Jan Dekker (RSA/FRA)
Pitman: Rodney Ardern (NZL)
Trimmer upwind: Simon Daubney (NZL)
Trimmer downwind: Nils Frei (SUI)
Mainsail trimmer: Warwick Fleury (NZL)
Traveller: Pierre-Yves Jorand (SUI)
Helmsman: Ernesto Bertarelli (SUI)
Tactician: Brad Butterworth (NZL)
Strategist: Murray Jones (NZL)
Navigator: Juan Vila (ESP)
Floater: Loïck Peyron (FRA)
Pre-start: Peter Evans (NZL)


http://www.cupinfo.com/en/alinghi33-press054-race-two-crew-feb-14-list.php

They would if it was their proper course...they could have been anticipating a header and were trying to get as much height as possible to ensure they could fetch the mark. Proving otherwise would be very difficult.

Wisely, like most here, I'm not going to pretend to be a match racing expert. And, I didn't get to see the races, so all I know is what I've read here.

But, it's very possible that on an open course at full speed, they were not comfortable getting into match racing maneuvers or tactics. Regardless of whether the match racing rules applied, the mindset (tactics and strategy) of racing just one other boat could have led them to try things that would force a penalty rather than get them around the course faster. But, they chose to go for speed.

To a person (and yes, they're all monohull sailors), I've talked to a number of folks at the high end of USSA, and if you listen between the lines, the main reason the next cup is likely to be on monohulls is that they don't consider fast boats (as fast as multis) to provide good match racing, and they believe that at its core, that's what the AC is supposed to be.

From what I've read and heard elsewhere, the best match racing boats are boats that are well matched (to one another), and go roughly the same speed upwind and downwind. This is to prevent a boat from getting so far out front that it becomes a horse race. They want to see a knife fight from beginning to end.

The other reason the next cup will be on monohulls is that no one at that end of the game really has an interest in multihulls going forward. Several months ago, there was a press conference with Alinghi, BMWO, and several other folks. One of them (I forget exactly who now) was asked about using multihulls in a future cup, he started to explain why he thought it would be a good idea, and the facial expressions, body language and groans from everyone else in the room was incredible. They all looked like they wanted to puke and leave the room.

As for this cup, I agree with the others who have said it was all about boatspeed. Especially in race 1, when BMWO simply ran past them. Yes, this was primarily due to design, but from the accounts given on this forum, my sense is that they also had better boat handling to keep the speed going on all points of sail.

Mike

Calls to bring back the mono's to the AC. Mostly due to the fact that the 2 multi's we just saw were so slow in maneuvering....


Our days in the sun are over I'm afraid. Its become blatantly clear to me that we've made very few converts and even made some hate us even more for some reason.

Just my casual observation.

Not that surprising is it? When I told my dad the 33rd AC was going to be sailed in giant 90'+ multihulls he literally sneered at me ( I grew up crewing for him on 4kt sh!@ boxes, had a blast too ). Tad I'm afraid is spot on here, and there is still only a minority of mono sailors that are even open to the idea of another AC on multihulls, and the rally cry will be they can't tack. Larry has made it clear that the cup race will be mono's again.

If you are directing this at my article, Swiss Miss on Sailling Anarchy (scroll down, no link yet), I'm gonna tell it to you like it is right now, just like I've done to you for years.

You do one post above explaining how USA 17 worked over Alinghi, then you start cry-babying right after that. Sounds like you should have come to the show here so you can throw EB some softballs. I did say it was a windshift. Listen to the broadcast. The gain Alinghi did make was because of a pressure patch. In your childish rant above, you even said that USA pulled away from Alinghi during that time. Don't put words in my mouth, like "turbo boost." I never said that, only that they pulled away......AND THEY DID! I had a nice talk with the wing desingers and they gave me some insight about the move and MORE, which I'll do a piece soon.

I have never taken the high ground and SA has never claimed that either. You obviously have no idea how this all works.

Wouter, if you're going to call out someone, just come out with it and don't say "like" in front of it. There are no other sites like SA.

We did tell it like it is this week. You know your buddy EB banned us and any other media who ask him the tough questions, right? To me, if he wanted to set it straight they would invite all media, not just the ones that help boost his Stalinist grip of the Cup, but he got owned in every way, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

What am I thinking, you are the absolute expert on multihulls that nobody has heard of in Holland. Keep bringing it! I get so much joy every time I decide to waste my time replying to you.

JC, what did you think of "the cross" coming up to A mark? It's very tough to judge speed and distance from my little computer screen, did it look like Alinghi could have put a lee bow on BMWO, or slowed down and forced BMWO to 2 tack in?

As soon as they let them go by, still on the layline, I knew that race was over. What did it look like out on the water? Was there anything they could have done to prevent that?

They would have gotten rolled. I only saw a 20 meter lead on Virtual Eye.

"I had a nice talk with the wing desingers and they gave me some insight about the move and MORE, which I'll do a piece soon. "

When and where? Do you see wings on small cats? 20' and less?

Although the Americas Cup is raced in the match racing format, it is not (and never has been) a "match race". Match racing is meant to be run with identical boats. It is a test of boathandling and tactics, not boatspeed. The Americas Cup is a technology race, intended to award the fastest boat.

Good afternoon Mr. Isotope:

Do you feel up to having a go at the rules again? I have a question, more suited to a new thread.

No. Among of many practical reasons, it will not be beneficial. We had this discussion a couple of days ago (search for wingsail)
You can also ask Ben Hall. He sailed a wing on a A-cat in 2008, and wasn't superior to soft sails.

Cheers,

Klaus

I wouldn't consider that experiment "final". Just because the first one of it's kind didn't prove superiority, I'm sure that's not the last rigid wing sail we'll see on an a-cat.

Build a small version of the BMWO wing, with a taper towards the top and several adjustable flaps, with a mid slot to adjust for even more camber, there you go...
Now, who's going to trim it for you on an A cat? Too many strings for that I think. It might work on a 2 up boat, and since a new mast for an I 20 is about $10K, why not start there? I'm sure Ben could build something suitable for about that amount!

You could ask Ben to build you one for your blade.

Normally in match racing, "hunting" is legal. That is, RRS 16.2 (the "anti-hunting" rule) is deleted by rule C2.5. Match racing is intedend to be a game of tactics, so closer interactions are permitted than in fleet racing.

However, I heard one of the commentators say something about rule 16 changes in the sailing instructions to give a port-tack boat more room to avoid a starboard boat, so I presume that "other restrictions apply". It may be that Alinghi would not be permitted to bear down on BMWO in a crossing. Not knowing all the rules in place, I can't say.

I understand that James Spithill is an experienced match racer. Russell Coutts was also on board for race 2. Alinghi had Brad Butterworth as tactician. Those guys presumably understand match racing far better than we do. Nevertheless, both teams made some pretty basic mistakes. BMWO, after charging down Alinghi in the first start, and masterfully drawing a foul, stalled and got stuck in irons. BMWO also didn't cover Alinghi in race 2. When the wind shifted and filled in on the right, BMWO saw her lead evaporate. Alinghi made serious errors in both prestart sequences. There's simply no excuse for her being out of the box in the second start. She messed up her first finish as well. I also believe Alinghi could have tried to draw an offsetting penalty at the close crossing in race 2.

All Alinghi needed to do was slow down a bit so that the boats were on a collision course (which is legal even under fleet racing rules). BMWO would need to either tack, slow down herself, or take a big duck. If she tacked, Alinghi could drive her off the course. If she slowed, Alinghi could simply pace her. If BMWO ducked, she risked missing the layline. If BMWO didn't keep clear, at least Alinghi's penalty would be cancelled.

I suspect BMWO could have slowed, ducked Alinghi, and still made the windward mark. From the Virtual Eye track, James Spithill appeared able to steer a course several boatlengths above the weather mark after the cross. Had he done so, then Alinghi would have been left having to tack when moving slow. That would have been even worse than crossing was for Alinghi, but I still think she should have tried.

My overall impression of both races was that the BMWO crew sailed their boat nearer to its potential than Alinghi's team did. In some situations, BMWO's boat was simply faster, but in others, I think the race could have been a lot closer.

Those are just my observations from the armchair - worth what you paid for them. It was fantastic to watch those amazing boats sail and I wish I could do half as well.

Regards,
Eric

Sure - in a new thread.

Certainly not the last one, and Ben Halls attempt was not the first one as well. A wing sail is much easier to build for a homebuilder than making a good soft sail, so yes, good opportunity to see more of them. But it doesn't mean they are faster nor they will be mainstream. Even the fast tri foiler never made it to mainstream...

The next question would be, at which size a wing sail has the opportunity to be better. 20ft, 25ft? I guess rather 25ft, maybe a foiling platform could help to go to smaller size.

Theres an ancillary rumor going around on top of the shenaniganas that the SNG people tried to pull on the RC boat, Lucien was on the radio with A5 telling them that there would be no race that day and thus A5 was out of position.

well, we don't know how difficult the boats are to sail. Sitting on the canape in front of a tv and judge that Spithill or EB made some stupid mistakes... If I just see that they have to helm the boats with a steering wheel instead of a tiller, how can thez have the right feedback from the boat with that. The traveller and sheets have servo assisted winches. What wind to you feel on deck, what is the wind 150ft above your head. It is totally different to what we are used with from our boats.

The guy helming for the new CoR is an employee of BMWO, and the President of that team is the owners wife.
Different people, same BS?

All rumor is suspect. I don't want to draw conclusions based on hearsay. If that story is true, it might explain Alinghi's flying the red flag. Still, at that level, boats should be prepared to race (not leave the racing area) until abandonment is signalled.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that Alinghi was out of position because the crew couldn't handle the boat? They are far, far better sailors than we.

What would you call going into irons one minute before the start? What would you call being out of the starting area during the sequence? I'd call them mistakes - ones that the world's top sailors shouldn't be making.


Wheels give feedback too. So do the 250 onboard sensors (supposedly how many BMWO has). I'm sure both crews had vastly better understanding of the wind conditions onboard (and above) their boats than any of us sailing by feel.

DUH,

I'm guessing your are JC.

No I did not intent to blame anyone personally, but rather the general drift that had developed over time where E. and A. were almost described invariably as the devil incarnate. Now I respect team BMWO more then E. and A. for their ability to remain respectful of the other team during the event and providing coverage of A. via their own promo channels.

Neither am I refering to any specific article or report. I did indeed withnessed both the official AC feed as the SA version. I do not pretent to have seen all articles or to be completely on a par with all the developments over the last 2.5 years. Maybe E. is truly a swine I don't know, but I doubt whether whether everyone in team A. is and these other person deserve some credit and positive coverage. All I'm saying is that I became disinterested in the BMWO - fan base coverage (during the event and before) because it practically came down to "look what an **** E. is" and "see what the bastard child team A. has done now"

I think telling it like it is does not necessarily mean doing character assasination on both the leader and a whole team.

Point in case; I thought the claim by BMWO that RAK was in danger of being invaded by the Iranians to be completely unhinged as well. Additionally, I thought the claim that A. couldn't use the 3D sails because the basic components were made in USA to be an inherently unfair stance unworthy of the spirit of a fair race.

As a defense, you seem to paint me squarely in the corner of E. and team A. Apparently, the concept of "with us or against us" has founds its way to the sport of sailing and the AC as well. I've kept the choice of my favourite team of the airwaves; but I can say that I don't recognize myself in your assumption.




Indeed, in this case you sound just like E. in the final press conference. I didn't like it when E. did and neither do I now that you (or SA) does it.

Note, that doesn't mean that I'm an enemy of either now !

I feel you can dislike a part of someone and still respect another part of the same person (organisation). Life is a painted with a palet of greyscales afterall and I'm sure you guys feel the same about my person.

Coming to that point (as you introduce this into the discussion). Maybe I do symphatize (spelling ?) with E. because I too was subject to a similar vitrol at one time. Neither I did have concrete plans to "conquer and rule the world" like some evil mastermind from a James Bond movie. Some things are fun in movies but not in real life. I can accept that E. or I did things that warranted a sound rebuke but I don't think either of us deserved the full "evil empire" treatment. In case of E. he stepped up to the plate, defending the cup, when based from obviously a disadvantaged position. Hell, they had to helikopter out their boat to open water by virtue of the DOG rule that it had to be build in the home nation of the team. Who is not to say that this necessasity alone limited the A5 design in profound ways ? They used the largest Soviet era helikopter for the job.

I think E. could be alot more open and well mannered but that doesn't take away that A5 is a great boat and an inspiring design; JUST AS MUCH AS USA-17 IS.

I feel 2 races was to short to see the best performance out of A5 ; I would have loved a 7 race format and see team A. getting dialed in as much as team BMWO appeared to be. Sure BMWO is the better design, I think that much is clear, but I think the more conventional (soft sail) A5 did show great potential indeed. 5 min lead over what, a 140 min race, is not that large a difference. Like I said it wouldn't be the first time that the slower design won the race.

I think everybody has got to respect the fact that Team A. succesfully completed their AC multihull project. It didn't break, it was in the same ball park performancewise to BMWO (although obviously disadvantaged) and they didn't cheat on BMWO on the water. Maybe that is less what L. and BMWO did, but it is not nothing either. We've got to respect that. We also got to respect the way the whole coverage comes across on the larger (not well informed) public (like myself ?) ; the eternal dissing of A. (deserved or not deserved) grew stale and turned me off. Again, I"m not in any way saying you did this; I'm just refering to the large fan base behind BMWO who seemed to have condensated around a site like SA.

Actually, all this reminds me of some valued American saying :

Don't wrestle with E. ehhh pigs; you both get dirty and pigs like it.



You conclude your post by the following unrelated (To the AC33) statement




This is a form of character assassination that has absolutely no valuable content what so ever. If cat sailing people never heard of me in NL then that says more about them then me. Am I a great cat racer ? No, and I never said I was. Am I a person that everybody loves from the get go ? Not likely. Am I the founder and initial main force behind the only NEW international catamaran class to have achieved success in the last 15 years ? A class that shows that some of the more mainstream products to be overpriced, "under state of the art" or overly selfcongratulory about their own performance ? Hell yes. Now if any self respecting cat sailor is unaware of that then I don't know about his or her personal credentials in this field.

I can assure everyone here that the (commercial) boys that matter in this field of small beach cats know who I am. They don't understand me or whatever happened in this 16 foot range in general, that is true. Many even do not respect the situation or me personally, but they sure as hell know about the F16's and that some wildcats out of nowhere stood them up and successfully implemented a superior product on a "shoe string" budget. Despite much redicule in the early years; I might add. Remember the midgets ?

If they are smart then they should consider what these wildcats could have achieved if they had the possession and support of a large established builder. They just might discover some valuable lessons here.


But indeed, this isn't about you or me personally, but rather about the AC33.

Personally, I'm thrilled to look at the solutions A5 implemented to make a basic cat design this big. I respect their work. I deeply respect the choice to go with the wing on BMWO and the way this team handled herself both on and off the water (despite some court choices). I was never before really interested in the AC; this time I truly was.

Other then that I personally respect you JC and my earlier post was definately NOT a hidden personal attack on you.

Regards,

Wouter

Jake,



Hall's mast wasn't the first try; not even inside the A-cat class.

Wouter

Sorta like this post from you. I actually thought you were changing into a semi rational person, growing up a little bit, but it appears you are still the NARROW MINDED BLOW HARD you always were. Oh Well.

Todd

Hey Todd,




You are right about one thing. I don't believe in false modesty.

Creating and establishing the truly lightweight and fast F16 class on a shoe-string budget together with Phill Brander does earn me some bragging rights, mate.

I'm sorry if you can't handle that.

Can we get back to the AC33 now ?

Wouter

I think you guys are missing my point...while I don't know of other rigid wing attempts in the a-cat class, my point is that it hasn't seen much development on an a-cat platform. Given the fact that it's working quite well for the c-class catamarans, I can't imagine that it won't scale to a similar advantage on the A-cat if the design is perfected.

I guess that cost would be an issue? How much for a wingsail? $10-15K?
Wingsails are also very impractical and fragile when pitchpoling, could also be a factor.

USA17 is without a doubt the most impractical boat on the planet, it is not able to go into any port that doesn't have breakwaters and 2 monster cranes.

I can think of 2 partial wing designs that were tried in N.A. In 1988 John Lindahl tried a partial wing i.e. large leading edge made of composites and a soft trailing edge (sail material) and in the late sixties there were 2 early A,s with the same arrangement in Canada. Don't know about Europe.

Fred Smith

Anyone have any pictures of the wings the C Class cats are using? I'm wondering if they have a slot like BMWO?

Am I the only one who thought the A5 had a major design flaw by virtue of its "undercarriage" structural design? It often created substantial drag when the boat came down off flying a hull to tack or jibe ... unless the water was flat calm. Just one of many elements that put her at a disadvantage.

As to the wingsail, curved dagger boards and other elements of the BMWO tri...do you have to get hit in the head with a brick before you realize what you just witnessed?...the boat characteristics you cling so tenaciously to were just thoroughly crushed by the future of multihull design...doesn't matter whether you acknowledge it or not...its here.

I think the C-class wings are more complicated in some ways, and less in others, than BMWO`s wing. The C-class have 3-part wings with 2 slots, as they need to be more efficient as they have no headsails.
BMWO has the 9 or so adjustable flaps all the way up the wing - this is actually not a very aerodynamic solution as there must be tip or edge vortices off each top & bottom end of each flap when they are opened to simulate a twisted mainsail.
I believe Cogito had a way of inducing twist up the trailing edge of the rear flap of the entire wing, without having any gaps between the sections, which would seem like a more refined solution, probably why they won the LAC several times with the same mostly unaltered design.
BMWO designers probably took this all into account and chose the simplest solution which they could, knowing that a headsail would assist the wing develop power, something missing from C-class cats. They also know that they were up against a soft sail, so ultimate efficiency was not a priority, as long as it was more efficient and versatile than a soft sail they knew they had a winner.
Stop me now if I`m talking rubbish.

Couldn't say it better.

What I wanted to say is that we see only the result but never the reason of what happend on TV. We don't know about wind, waves, other boats around, black out of systems, whatever. We just see the boat is in irons or Alinghi is in the no go zone. And without knowing any details, I will not judge about the crews.


I haved sailed boots with wheels and tiller. I always prefer to have a tiller. Go sailing in the night and you know what I mean. You can have sensors and indicators but the information you get through your hands ears and eyes is the fastest and easiest to understand. My personal opinion, but I think many will agree.

One special thing on both boats is that the boards are very forward (in front of the front beam). A normal boat would have inacepatble strong weather helm and might even be directional instable, if not compensated by special means. Maybe the rudder control is an irreversible servo control system, maybe with an artificial feel system. I know that's quite nerdy what I am speaking about and I will not go into detail, but it gives you an idea that these boats are much more than just big beach cats.

Cheers,

Klaus

Dig through this. I think there a couple of links with pix.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=101656&hl=fred

Wouter-
Dude, I wasted my time beating you down in this forum years and years ago and I'm not going to anymore. It all started eight year ago when I schooled you on the Marshall plan and the US rebuilding Europe. I was just starting back racing catamarans then. If I didn't love the sport so much, I would have never returned to this forum after reading your posts. I guarantee you drive more people away from this forum and catsailing than anything productive you have ever done in your life.

With that being said, goodbye.

JC:
For the last year or so SA has been on the warpath against anything related to Alinghi and EB.
IMO some of this stuff has turned into a personal vendetta between Scott, Clean and Alinghi, this has made their reporting very biased to BMWO and any outcome not resulting in a win would not be acceptable to them.

I just hope you dont get pulled into their anger to much. :-)

Anyway, the ice is thawing next week so we can get some sailing in!
Cheers.

Ben didn't do much sailing with that wing before the worlds or after it. I guarantee you if he built another it would be different and better. I think it all boils down to a point of practicality. The C classes don't race regularly, therefore the hassle of the wing is justifiable,and the venues are spaced(physically) accordingly. If someone wanted to deal with all the inconveniences it could be a dominating force,but it would take a lot of time,money and care.

"Although the Americas Cup is raced in the match racing format, it is not (and never has been) a "match race". Match racing is meant to be run with identical boats. It is a test of boathandling and tactics, not boatspeed. The Americas Cup is a technology race, intended to award the fastest boat."

I know, and agree. But, that is the line that a lot of these folks like to take to make their case to return to monohulls. They, of course, will then spend all sorts of money to get the fastest boat that they can buy (technology).

Mike

I've raced against Ben at Lake Hopatcong with his wing upwind, and my 50lbs of leverage advantage was about the same as his wing, and we were equal at times, and he (in my opinion) was afraid to put the bows down and use the wing to its full advantage, if he got it right, he was way faster. Downwind the wing was way faster and with practice he would have had a bigger advantage. BMWO proved that wings are faster than soft sails. On a small boat, making it work it is difficult, but with a crew of 10 BWMO absolutely had an advantage.

This cup was won by 1. the wing, 2 sailing mistakes made by A.

Wouter - where have you been hiding?



Wouter you are a socialist idiot. This had nothing to do with 50 states, this was 2 billionaires spending 100M each on a boat race.

I've missed your point of view, ever though you are dope.

Bill

I'd quit sailing if I had to deal with a wing that doesn't keep me airborne.

Karl, if you got it going fast enough and then leaned it sideways, (cant it to windward) or just before you crashed, it would get you ariborne. Keeping yourself airborne is a skill you would then have to learn, kind of like the Moth sailors have to learn how to stay up on the foils. I think the wing concept has a lot of potential, it just needs more development time.

Time and Money that is...If I had unlimited time and money, I'd be on the phone to Mr. Hall right now, talking about a new wing for my new fully foiling, canting wing, 100% carbon A cat. Maybe I could add a kite-board type sail for the downwind work? ;^)

There was a windsurfer type thing called a wind weapon, that had the sail mounted on a central pivot. You'd turn it vertically to get speed ,then rotate it horizontally and take off and hang from under it. I've still got some VHS tapes(yes Jake, tapes) of them using them in the Gorge.

Another thing a lot of folks aren't thinking about with the wing fever that's going around is that when you flip generally it's catastrophic.Smaller cats tend to flip more than bigger ones so add that into your budget.

What Budget??

Performance potential yes. Worth it, er, um......eek! I'm pissy when I have to take the boat apart anyway. Having to deal with and transport a 30' wing sail would probably end with a click, pop and then the back of my head exploding.

I watched Ben mount his wing, he had it in a box on the trailer, in two sections. It didn't take him too long (less than an hour) and actually it looked much easier than me rigging my spin cat by myself. Now, on the crash thing, yeah, you don't want to land on it! That would slow you down and be expensive, I don't know how hard it would be to right it either, might be easier as it would float quite high and the wind would help you much more than with a conventional sail.

Just finished reading the thread and someone asked for photos of C Class wings, maybe you? Anyway, the best pictures were posted here, or at least the link to their site, for I have them on file. Just send me a PM with the email and I'll send them. They exceed the 100Kb size allowed for attachments here.

Ever since the schooner America turned this thing into the Americas Cup it's been about showing up with something your design team thought of that the other guy's didn't. The only time people get weepy about it and starting talking about a "match" is when they find out they missed the mark. Yacht America was sufficiently different in its day. We've had long overhangs, winged keels, twisting rigs, odd shaped underhull appendages that aren't really part of the hull, etc, etc, etc. If people really wanted a pure match race to determine the best sailors it would gone pure OD along time ago. But it's not what is truly the essence of the Cup.

There have been lopsided, no tactics, horizon fest, speed decided races in the monos. For the mono crowd to blame this solely on the multis is living in denial.

I think A5 lost their one opportunity in race 2 by letting BMWO go at the crossing. I also wonder if they misjudged where the layline was. Initially it didn't look like BMWO was on the line, but it looked a shift and there they were - they just seemed to read the conditions better. But if A5 had adjusted a little they maybe could have forced a situation to their benefit. Armchair sailing on my part for sure...

Comments made by the designer from A5 during the A5 post race 1 conference made me start to think that they thought they had it all figured out based on their Lake Geneva experience. I think they failed to do their design homework. The boat is beautiful, but some things were just off enough. After seeing different elements of the undercarriage bits striking waves I think I know where the call for restrictions on wave states came from. Where did they think they would be sailing?

No pity for them being a small landlocked nation, they played that getting into the AC in the first place, and it worked through two ACs.

I was impressed with the sportsmanship of BMWO. I was initially impressed with the A5 sportsmanship, a few points off in the end for blaming biased court decisions.

For the most part I enjoyed the SA coverage, but I also liked the coverage on ESPN360 with Jobson and Smyth. I've not been the biggest fan of Jobson for his take on multihulls, but this was a good combo. In the end he said he needed to get to West River to try an A-Cat! We shall invite him and await his visit... The SA commentary was great, but degenerated around the last mark rounding (recordings of how EB had no "secret weapon"), but hey, that's SA.

I'm not sure I can get too excited about an AC that turns back the techno clock (I want one of Spithill's backpacks with head up display sunglasses!), but hey, it will be sailing, so I'll probably watch anyway, and grumble about how the monos have destroyed the cup...

I hope that BMWO gets donated to the new Sailing Hall of Fame in Annapolis and they give folks rides for a fee. I'll spend many weekends getting back in line.

In the end, cheers to both teams for bringing what they had and laying it on the line. Cheers to the folks that presented it us on the interweb - it was disappointing that it wasn't on TV, but honestly, in the end, the coverage was far better this way than it could have been on TV. The only thing missing was onboard cameras (why ban that EB?).

Is this a growing Dutchie trend?

I'll be nice, so check your PM. Goodbye

Just a small observation about putting wingsails on small cats. Seems like it would take up a lot more room on shore, because the wings would have to be laid down, wouldn't they?

Jake,

Potential problem points that I remember of my head are :

BMWO could use a single slotted wingsail because they can fly a reacher on the downwind legs. Classes not allowing that typically use the more complex 2 slotted wingsails.

Upwind the advantage of the wing compared to the soft rig is not that much according to Bob last time.

Main benefit was the drive off the wind (as BMWO also appears to confirm) but the advantage was to some extent lost in fleet racing. I can't remember exactly why, have to look over the comments by Bob on this forum.

On the A's the wing just weights more and incurs drawbacks that way. These boats are already very lightweight and the heavier wing may lead to additional pitching.

I also seem to remember Bob commenting something like the wing is more sensitive to disturbed air.

Main point that stuck in my mind was that fleet racing negated much of the advantages of the wing. I immediately recognized that these issues are not encountered in C-class racing or the current AC.

Again, all this from the top of my head.

Wouter

So now you think it is in our genes ?

Yes we Europeans are all degenerates. Or socialists, whatever you Yanks think is worse.

Can I get some love as well ?


Wouter

What I want to know is how a German funded New Zealand run Australian skipperd Yacht won the cup for the Americans!!??

What I want to know is how much $ BMW put in? I'm guessing very little and they were kept on board for their expertise and possibly as a show of good faith for future events.

now the boats will go back to being boring

Those 13 mile reaches were friggin' boring on a 90' multihull, hope they don't try them with 10KSBs!

Look at this opportunity differently and you and I could be on every ride. They will need someone with multihull experience take others out for those rides I wouldn't mind being the one to be the first to pitch-pole that thingy...with helmet, shoulder pads, video camera, and parachute. Well maybe not.

During the 32nd AC, BMW had a significant amount more money into the team than Oracle did. I would think this campaign would have been similar or they wouldn't have taken them on as a sponsor again.

what really sucked? My bro went to have his car worked on at a BMW dealer, and THEY DID NOT HAVE THE RACE BEING BROADCAST ON THIER COMPUTER.

THEY DID NOT EVEN KNOW THAT THERE WAS AN AC MATCH. I mean, %&^, they're charging $300 for a spark plug to pay for the DoGzilla, at least they should SHOW the dang race in the waiting lounge....

Who was driving in 2007 when Alinghi won the cup??

These are professional sailors.

I'll give you all of that but the German funded. I'll bet they put in a pitance of what this thing cost. My guess would be well under 10%. Possibly more like 1% of the cost. My guess is that Ellison used his wallet to fund this one.

I think they should have a few more races just for kicks. I'll bet that some of each crew would love to sail the "other" boat... What other sea-miles do these boats expect to see? Use 'em! generate some PR about multis. Take them on the VX40 circut (even as static displays) or ORMA series.

I say that any sailboat capable of going 3x windspeed is worth seeing up close. I'd even pay a little money to see it up close, or a lot more to sail on it!

Bring it to a boat show and watch your attendance double...

The helmsman was Ed Baird (American) the skipper was Butterworth (Kiwi).

I have had the pleasure of sailing with Ed once. Laid back, nice guy. As Randy said during their coverage Ed should have been on board..... I like to think he didn't care for the crap that was going on and is happy he wasn't a public part of it.

Good point. We can sail it around giving the tourons rides! Get 'em to hang off the back of the windward ama just like the BOR crew! Think it'll fit under the bridge? We can be the first multi on a Tuesday in Galesville with a mast taller than Roger's!

I thought James Spithill an Australian was skippering BMW Orical, which is great good luck to them all.
A little sad though, Its a long time since it was just the name of the country on the side of the boat and they all had to be real cidizens of the country

I have been thinking about this and some other odd manuvers in terms of BMWO's laser wind mapping system(Dopler LIDOR). A dopler LIDOR should be able to read windshifts and predict when they will arrive. Alinghi may have tacked on the Layline but BMWO may have tacked on where the layline would be. When BMWO first tacked the birds eye view anaimation showed BMWO below the layline. It was only after Alinghi tacked that the animation showed BMWO on and then later above the layline.

When I first heard about the dopler LIDOR, I thought mapping a square or a circle up to a mile away would be nice not a killer. As watched the race I started thinking instead of just mapping square on the course, I would map a narrow rectangle in front of me to see what is coming at me or an arc to see what it looks like ahead and to the sides in order to see what my alternatives look like. With this information and the right software you could predict whether tacking to cover would pay off. OR you could just use it to predict puffs and lulls and be ready for them. BMWO was always real smooth almost never getting caught by a puff. A huge advantage with a wing on a reach (or downwind?) PLUS a LIDR in this mode would see shifts ahead and when they would reach you.

All of these things depend on the right software and some way to display it so that it is meaningful. I think I would rather have this and a smart navigator to interpret it and ask smart questions than a slightly faster boat.

Good point. I think that BMWO will keep silence about this technology, since it is applicabale to any future AC boat.
The combination of LIDAR wind shear measurement and a hydraulic actuated computer controlled fast trimming wing mast opens a new horizon to sailing. Although I am not fully clear, if this is legal.

Cheers,

Klaus

It looked like Jimmy was using a tactic where the layline boat points below the layline so the crossing boat thinks they are not on the perfect layline, so they cross instead of lee bow. If A would have been able to lee bow (too close I think) we would have had a great race on the reaches with the faster boat trying to find a lane to pass and Alinghi looking like Jean Gerard in Talladega....slingshot engage

The LIDAR is really interesting. I got to talk to them while they were here and I'll probably do a piece on it.

Cool, two possible explanations (or maybe a combo of both) for what we saw. Of course, if it was a classic trick A5 should have at least been thinking it was, we'll never know that answer. In the end they failed to keep themselves between their opponent and the next mark, layline or no...