Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest

THIS EVENT IS OFFICIALLY CANCELED.

SORRY TO DO THIS BUT 3 BOATS IS NOT GONNA CUT IT.

MARK (Santorelli)

At least 5 boats are required for the qualifier to count with US sailing too.

That is depressing. Do we know why there is no interest?

There's lots of interest in the Finals, but the Qualifiers across the country are drawing fewer and fewer entries. I don't know what the answer is. I'd bet my favorite socks that there will be a flood of petitions for entry to the Championship next June here in California - who doesn't want to race on OPB, brand new F16s? I think we've come to rely too much on petitions, to the detriment of the regional events. A re-think is needed that balances encouragement with maintaining a high level of competition. The fleet was really good again this year...

I hope that re-think is open to the public. It's hard to get people on board with a new idea if they have no part in it.

The closed nature of USS would be my single biggest complaint.

I'd venture to say - overscheduling.

You had the Statue Race, then Rock Hall JO event (that drew a lot of Hobie parents), then the Barnegat Breezer regatta, then the Corsica River event last weekend.

Area C is pretty much Hobie 16 and 17 territory - they're not so much interested about winning a spot to compete in an event on a spin boat that's totally different than what they're used to sailing.

People who are used to racing singlehanded and those that have limited or no experience with spin boats (Hobie 16s).

Care to offer a solution?

Perhaps they should change the area C boundries, to include more fleets than just the H16 and H17 groups? I'm not familiar with Area C, what major cities/sailing areas are there in Area C?


OR...get Hobie to supply a bunch of new H16's or H17's for the next Alter Cup? After all, it IS named after that Hobie Alter guy.

There used to be a map on US Sailings website showing the Area's. I can't find it now....

Anyone care to post the link?

I think there are a bunch of different reasons why...

But, I'm not a US Sailing member, should be, but there are some reasons there also.....


Mike

Add in the decent sized Hobie 18 Fleet... again... a spin class event is not interesting or important to them.

The A cat fleet does not see the two man championship on spin boats as interesting or important.

The F16 fleet is primarily single handed in the region... again the championship is not interesting or important.

The Chesapeake Nacra 20 fleet does not travel, especially to a buoy race. (see NA attendance). Buoy races are not that interesting or important to these guys.

OVERSCHEDULED??? relative to the interest in attending the area championship... ABSOLUTELY....

We also had a conflict with Special Olympics this weekend and Wildwood (Hobie) and Bristol (A cats) the following weekends... (Our most dedicated racers also make the Special Olympics happen.)

Unless the one design classes agree to exchange one of their OD events for the Area Championships, we will be over scheduled.

By design.... each OD class is scheduling the number of events that they believe they (the OD class) can optimally support... Add one more event like the Area qualifier and you are over scheduled!

We need to restructure or punt on the championships in my region

(Area C includes Va Beach, Hampton, Annapolis, Washington DC, Baltimore, Wilmington, Philadelphia and up through North Jersey just south of New York City.)

US Sailing Areas:

The Championship is sailed on whatever boat the manufacturers or dealers are willing to provide at a discounted charter fee. Anyone who thinks "we" get to pick whatever boat "we" want is mistaken on that point... in the case of the last several years, two-up spinnaker boats are what has been available. I conclude that the manufacturers are providing the boats that they know they can sell after the events.

Please don't underestimate the level of support that Hobie USA or any other manufacturer has provided since the Alter Cup's inception. The small charter fee available from the Alter Cup committee does not offset a builder's costs to support the event. Nobody (including Rolex) has done more to support the Championship financially than the builders.

So what changes are you recommending?

Not likely, since the US Sailing Areas are for all sailors, not just multihulls. We've already made adjustments by combining Areas A and B, and splitting Area D - just for this event.


Since Hobie 17s are out of production, that's a moot suggestion.

Hobie 16s have been used (as recently as 2004) and were not well received by the top competitors, as evidenced by many area champions declining to race in the finals. There were a record number of petitions granted that year.

There was a plan to use Hobie 16s in 2009, but the deal fell through for a variety of reasons.

The Hobie 16 will be back as the Alter Cup boat - possibly in association with another major 16 event in 2012.

I have to agree with John .., and this is what I said from the very beginning of expanding to twenty teams, so all the “buds” could get in on the Championship.

Stick with the ladder system that way it started -- 10 areas, 10 qualifiers, and 10 for the duration of the round robin event.


The craze for more teams was created by the Californians who felt they had more high-caliber sailors than Iowa, Kansas, Texas, Florida, etc. However, the ladder was designed to take the BEST sailor for EACH area and compete. They lobbied that CA had 6 great sailors and they should ALL attend.

Hence the new system. I fought it from the very start and still feel it has created a mess.

And no mfg. is going to supply 20 boats, so consequently the convoluted round robin system had to be invented, leaving half the fleet going home early.

And yes, those usually are the Area Reps – they just got outsailed by the Rock Stars.
It is great to sail with the Rock Stars, but one should be from each area.

I think I know what my next editorial will be.., and I bet it won’t be gladly accepted.
Answer to the Problem is build stronger Areas and promote them more. Forget the invitations to the Elite.

We put in measures in the last several years to help promote the qualifiers. We changed the allocation for one of the AC event spots to be available to the largest area qualifier - that qualifier gets to send it's two top teams instead of one.

The event itself also NEEDS 20 teams to be able to afford all of the expenses of the event - maybe the 20 team effort was started so all the "buds" could compete, but today it's necessary to put on a quality event. Even with 20 teams, the entry fee is pretty high...with only 10, it would be higher or the regatta benefits - that we've all become accustomed to at week-long events - would be reduced or eliminated and would probably be to the detriment of the attendance event.

I'm personally in favor of reducing the number of petition slots available...but it's hard to get the people that are nominated or even in some cases, qualify, to attend the championship. To reduce the dedicated petition slots may be pointless as you're going to have to draw from the petition pool to fill the slots that others have left vacant.

PS - we don't use a round robin format anymore...it's promotion relegation and everyone sails to the last round. In the three years I helped with the event, I only heard minor complaints about specific details of the rotation (number of throw-outs, etc.) - my impression (myself included) people like the promo-rele system.

Why can't you just "run what you brung"?

Because then EVERYONE bitches about the ratings, some people will dust off and sail rating beaters, and nobody feels like you had a true championship.

If you run classes, and designate each winner as the "USS Class Champion" there is no handicap. Simultaneously you can designate the "Alter Cup Champion" from a particular class.

Example: registration on Monday, Class races Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Alter cup Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Any of these races could be run on privately owned boats or chartered from the builder.

In my particular case, I'd come for the class racing and stick around to watch THE AC.

The event was named for Hobie Alter because he once promoted the one-design aspect of a regatta. The Alter Cup is based on the premise that a round-robin rotation on provided boats where tuning is restricted is more fair and equal than "run what you brung." I would contend that it is more fair and equal than any other one-design event. Even for the Hobie 16 events where boats are provided, there are those that "know" how to tune a boat. The Alter Cup tries to get at those who "know" how to sail it.

I'm not making any judgement about other events here! I'm just stating what is different about Alter Cup.

OMG, you're not recommending Gerrymandering?

Run the AC just as it is now. Run an expanded format to boost attendance.

Offering USS Class Championships might draw more attendance, particularly if the results were used to establish the Portsmouth number.

As it is now, the Portsmouth handicap has little credibility. IF you run a regatta specifically to establish the handicap numbers, folks might try a little harder.

Attendance and format for the Finals isn't the problem. There are plenty of people that want to go every year. Boosting attendance at the Regional events is the issue... and the Regional ladder events are already "run-what-you-brung."

If the final is not a problem, why does it rely on petitions to fill up?

Membership in USS is a problem. Most cat sailors don't see any value in it. IF you designated class championships, that might change. It is certain that if you don't try no one will ever know for certain.

Maybe people really, realy don't like portsmouth racing and that's why they don't show up for regionals!

Can you start a list of classes that want US SAILING involved in their Class championships? This shouldn't take long.

Pete, in order to "try" something, you first have to have an effective understanding of the problem. The Finals have a big draw of interested participants, the ladder events do not... I think that framing the Finals as the root of the problem is not the best way to approach it. Or are you suggesting that there be 10 ladder events, all designated as Class championships?

It's also worth noting that there are selections that do come from various class championships throughout the country. Both Nacra and Hobie get to send a selected team (who is urged to be a champion of one of their classes) and (I believe) the manufacturer that is supplying boats gets to send a team. In addition to that, a rotating class (which has most recently been the formula classes that don't have a single manufacturer) is selected each year to send it's national champ (or down to 3rd place)...so class championships are represented.

As John said, how do you get people to the qualifier. Why are the qualifiers low in attendance? In area D, we have consistently had pretty good turnout at both the Dn and the Ds and we usually duke it out to be the area with the largest qualifier in the country. What are we doing differently? Personally, I enjoy the event and racing on handicap is a somewhat unusual challenge for me since I mostly race within a class. The guys we sail with are tough too and it's freakin fun working out how far ahead you have to be or behind you can be to beat someone...lots of great conversation. AND the qualifier results help add to the portsmouth results for more accurate ratings.

For you guys that don't go to your qualifiers - why does it get a low priority on your regatta list?

Firstly, I understand the problem very well. The Alter Cup is dying and nothing is being done to prevent it.

A good part of the reason is USS's lack of credibility within the catamaran community. The rank and file do not feel represented. If you don't value the organization, why would you value their championship?

USS's Portsmouth numbers are not respected. The reporting is spotty at best. Why would a serious sailor compete in a system which he does not find credible?

Lastly, not everyone agrees that "no tuning" is the best way to determine a true champion. I am one of them. I would give much greater credence to a champion who brings a boat on which he is thorougly familiar and is set up to his, or her, best advantage.

USS has the opportunity to solve all three of these problems with a single event.

There is an old saying, "If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting." A significant change is in order, imo.

I disagree with just about every bit of that post and I've competed in three and managed three AC Championships. NOTHING is more fair than sailors sailing boats that are setup identically. Nothing pits sailor skill against sailor skill in the same way. It's a different, and IMHO, the most humbling and pure way to compete. How you setup your diamond wires does not make you a better or more deserving sailor. How you use your mind and skill to use the wind, the water, and your competition does.

Interest and participation in the championship is actually up. It's the area qualifiers, as evident by the subject matter of this post, that are suffering.

Disagree all you like but in doing so you must believe there is no problem with the handicap system, there is approval of USS in general, and that no one disagrees with the "no tuning" aspect of the AC.

Does any other class determine it's champion by swapping boats? Or disallowing individual tuning?

Of course there are problems with portsmouth. Of course the rotation system isn't perfect in every way. Of course you can never have 10 boats that are completely identical (although I've run the statistics on the boats for two years and they've empirically been extremely even throughout the results) - but we don't live in Eutopia. Everything is a compromise in some way but I believe we have a great balance with what we have.

I also understand the exacting detail in the Portsmouth system and I'm a big fan of the level headed and incredible thought and energy that went into developing the statistics and math that went into it and the resulting numbers. Again, same deal; the problem here is that the people don't put in the energy to support it by competing in their qualifiers or sending in their portsmouth results on a regular basis. Even considering that, I believe it works pretty well. The only way to improve on it is to find a system that nobody has to do anything with to maintain it or find a way to get people more interested.

Why don't people attend qualifiers in massive numbers? Why was area C less attractive to all of the cat sailors in the area?

Pete, you demonstrate that you don't understand... the Alter Cup is booked out for the next two years. It isn't "dying." There are people who have been at it, year after year, making it better and better. The qualifying events are in decline, however. Keep focused on the topic of the thread... Area C got canned because people didn't sign up. There will be, beyond a doubt, Area C sailors that want to go to the Finals, though. Without being punitive, how do you make the ladder more attractive? Or, do you just do away with the ladder? That is the sort of re-think that is needed.

Yes they do in a moderately similar fashion with provided boats - Hobie 16 worlds. Besides I would argue that the lack of tuning and even boats is what makes this event even more prestigious. NASCAR IROC is a similar example - the championship of champions.

Do as you like. You're selecting a champion from a very small group of legitimate contenders. It will be interesting to see if the "pool" of potential champions has increased in the next two years and if the depth of quality of competition has increased.

Change is certain. The fact that a small number of you have made a prodigous, passionate effort in support of the cup doesn't mean you are right. Time will tell.

(pssst....the championship is not in decline but is growing).

I hope you're right.

I think we are getting wayyy off track here. The "problem" is/was Area C's turn out for their Alter Cup qualifier, right?

Perhaps we should hear from some Area C sailors as to why they didn't sign up?

As for myself, I'd go to the Area D south regatta not to qualify for the Alter Cup, but just to have a good time at a good regatta, if it were -do able- time off wise, kitchen pass wise, etc.

Maybe the guys in are C are just not too motivated to go to the Alter Cup, so they don't feel they need to show up for the qualifier, especaially if they are already 'overscheduled' with many other regattas?

And if the Alter Cup is supposed to be about who is the best sailor, why not sail it on the Vipers as Uni's? There is nothing more challenging than sailing a spin cat solo!

"The "problem" is/was Area C's turn out for their Alter Cup qualifier, right?"

Superficially. Besides, you're late to the party. We already had last call.

Last call?? Already??

"But ossifer...I had to drive, I couldn't walk!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDzcYerwE4s

Step, bump, step bump bump...

"Can you start a list of classes that want US SAILING involved in their Class championships? This shouldn't take long."

Two different regattas. "U.S. F16 Class association Championship" as averse to "USS F16 Championship". It gives the option of attending one or the other, or both.

The idea of a "USS Class Championship" was intended to generate more interest in USS and the AC.

Jake,

BUT boat tuning for crew weight is critical. Is it fair if the lightweights get an overpowered boat; the heavies get an underpowered boat and one team gets a boat that is set up properly?

I think the event is a fine idea; but struggle to see the fairness of tuning the boats to suit only one crew weight.

t,s really sad to see the lack of interest in the multihull championship ( Alter Cup). The main reason for the formation of this event was to show, the multihull sailors and at that time USYRU that we were part of the total sailing community. We use the same rules and race the same as monohulls, but just use another type of craft. So, to not appear that we were different the event was patterned after the existing national ladder championships. 10 boats and 10 area teams with no petitions.

I truly appreciate the sailors, volunteers and suppliers that have kept this event going for 20+ years. I just hope the current apathy doesn't portend it's demise.

It has always been an uphill battle to get multihulls integrated with USSA. Thank goodness for for John's involvment, but it takes more than one.

Gordon

What would it take to get A class Sailors to participate in the handicap qualifier regatta?

Hold an Alter Cup on A cats or some other solo boat.

The two up thing might be what's keeping the A cat guys away.

Has the Alter Cup ever been held on a -one up- type boat?

(H17, Wave, A cat, Nacra 5.5 Uni)

It seems that a lot of regattas now are just having less attendance which can be some of the problem. Both sailors having to be US Sailing members also adds cost and may deter some. If you sail with a lot of sailors in your area, you know which ones come out on top more often and you have never beat so why spend the extra money on US Sailing membership just to go to a regatta. The Alter cup is a week long event and getting time off can be a problem so why go to the qualifier and not just a local regatta that does not need US Sailing membership. I go to the qualifier because it is in an off time of the year and is a lot of fun and the host has kept the costs low. If the qualifier has another regatta as a conflict and the cost to attend is high I don't think I would go. I don't really care to go to the Alter cup but I do like going to a fun local regatta. I sailed in a qualifier before a Hobie 18 nationals to get practice for the Hobie event and was not a US Sailing member and did not get scored because I just did not want to spend another 40.00. I almost did not go to our qualifier last year because my teammate could not come, so I sailed with my super crew (wife) and had to buy her a US sailing membership on the way to the regatta. It is just a waste of money for her to be a member when she sails a few regattas a year and would never go to an Alter cup.
Maybe waive the fee for crew, or both, for the qualifier to see if that gets attendance up.

Golden Anchor Membership thru the Multihull Council, rates are lower for US SAILING membership, Youth 21 or under, or full time students, $20, Individual, $50, and family $75.
Caleb Tarleton, MHC

I also disagree that the event is dying. In my (limited) experience with the finals (I've done the last five) I think that this year's event was by far the most competitive as far as level of competition. It was a great competition.

I view the qualifier as another local event that I like to do (in spite of not being a fan of Portsmouth racing) and I don't really even think about the finals when I schedule it in. For us in D south it is at a great time of the year and without conflicts so it is kind of a no brainer.

I plan on attending our qualifiers, but not the finals. I am not a fan of the new four day format. I think a major championship should be over five days, especially when traveling across the country to attend. I understand that there might be cost issues involved for the hosts, but there are great costs involved for the sailors as well and another day of lodging is a small percentage of the overall costs.

Didn't mean to derail the topic. Which is really about drumming up more interest to the regional events. So are there ways to get people to think about it more as just another great regatta on the schedule instead of an 'added' event?

Didn't sign up due to a last-minute plea to fill in at the Special Olympics (AND tow a double-stacked 16 rig over). Have to say we had some great, fun, mostly one-design racing at SO's last year, with 20-year old 16s duking it out with new boats.

I'm not real interested in going to the finals. That makes the Alter Cup regional just another race, and one that I know will have a low turnout. For better or worse, requiring membership for both skippers and crew keeps people away. I assume the old method of only scoring USS members for the Qualifier while scoring all racers for the regatta is no longer valid?

"not a big fan of Portsmouth Racing"

Well.... I hear that a lot!.... I don't think its particularly about the "rating" system... I suspect you are not a big fan of HANDICAP RACING... period.

Interesting that the Brits, EU's and Aussie's don't have nearly as much of an issue with HANDICAP RACING as us Yanks.

Nevertheless... you put the regatta on your schedule!
You and Lennard both describe the qualifier as a good regional regatta that ranks high on your regatta to do list.

In Area C where we have consolidated into viable one design fleets (see post above for current fleets) with enough OD racing to fill a season.... the Area C regatta has NO constituency.

Personally, I have supported the Area C qualifier because this event was the most competitive event the dead boat society owners could aspire to and the event was the essential mission statement of CRAC. (Disclaimer... I sailed a variety of dead boats... (Darts, Mystere's Tornado's) The Area C events I have organized or coordinated or pimped attempted to put on a first rate regatta to meet the open class niche AND draw in the one design racers. As time marched on... the dead boats no longer race. I know of TWO dead boat owners left....(Supercat 22 and Prindle 19 MX plus some orphan Tigers at Sandy Hook, NJ. CRAC is just a paper organization with a bank account.... Slowly trying to dissolve into the background.

I continue to support the Area Championship for two reasons.
1) Our branch of the sport MUST HAVE a niche within the Sailing Establishment. We must have a first rate presence in ALL ASPECTS of the sport.... That would be Junior Sailing, Junior Olympic Development, Adult One Design Championships, US Sailing Adult Championships, International Event Championships. If we don't play ... we can't expect anyone to waste any of their time on us. I believe that our survival depends on our being full members of the local, regional and national sailing scene. The days of doing everything on our own are history. Multihull racers represent real expertise because our sailors have worked their butt off to become expert Race officers, judges and race officials... Hell at the JO's.. the OA had to scramble to pull together a jury and the Div 11 multihull sailors stepped up and ran the process flawlessly.... (given the hard butts of parents and coaches from SSA and AYC..... this is high praise). We also turn out for the big events... See the F18's at the SF NOODS and at the Newport Regatta this summer. So, This is the real politik reason!

2) I believe that we are NOT a Balkanized collection of children sailing in one design classes... Instead... we are a multihull community. If the community is to have any vitality... then it must have a common interest and goals and I believe that a regional championship between the one design classes has enormous potential. The one design classes should be able to support a Junior program, a Special Olympics program, and a Regional championship in their area. (This is my Squishy Kum Bay Yah reason for supporting Area Championships).

I have made the case to the powers that be that the the future of the Area Championships should be decided by the national Class's. If your national class makes the regional championship participation a priority, The Regional championships can succeed.

Otherwise, we should scrap the Multihull championships altogether. We could simply get in line for a turn at the US Sailing Mens single handed Championships... (Lasers, Finns, Sunfish, A cats, Hobie 17's F16/17, Moths Contenders) etc etc.

I could argue that Gordon Isco's goal of getting mulithull acceptance in 2010 would be best served if the Mens single handed championship was contested on A cats!

Maybe it’s time to turn the Alter Cup into a Championship of Champions type event instead of a ladder event. Portsmouth racing has declined considerably in the last few years and I think there are just not as many people who can get excited about racing Portsmouth these days.
Most of the sailors attending AC qualifiers don’t expect to qualify for the championship. From my limited experience in the past people went to the AC qualifiers because it was just another event on the schedule. But that was back when people were actually going to handicap events. This doesn’t happen all that much any more.

Poop on a stick man! We had a-cats at our qualifier for the last four years.

D south as well.

Seems John and I are thinking similarly -- put more emphasis on the qualifiers, and have 10 teams.
I do not understand the problem of finances Jake brought up. When I was participating our area org. paid for the entry fee, and at the host club they provided housing, i.e., US Sailings Champion of Champions.
Rick

I'm not quite following you. Can you 'splain it a little more?

Rick

Seems like there are three or four options proposed

Do Nothing.... The championship is fine... Area's participate if they want to by holding and racing a qualifier. No worries if the Area's drop out of qualifiers.

Tweak the rules to get into the championship that puts more emphasis on the qualifier... Still a 20 boat regatta with 10 Champions/Petitions and 10 qualifiers.
John Williams proposal.

Turn back the clock... It's a ladder event championship.... Race your qualifier and go to the national championship.
If 20 teams are needed... top two go?. Rick White's Proposal

Champion of Champions The area qualifiers are just another regatta and no one participates to get to the championship. Drop em! Just award the 20 slots to One Design NA winners and petitions and drop the qualifiers all together. Bob Merrick's Proposal.

Shift the emphasis to the One Design Classes to support and nominate the sailors. Each class with a NA's sends a rep. One Design Classes get behind the Area Qualifier as an inter class championship event and exchange a OD regatta for the Qualifier..... Schneider's pie in the sky proposal.

What else?

I think we are fractionalized, Balkanized, whatever. A big party somewhere (I'm thinking New Orleans or Chicago areas) would help develop a sense of community. USS is all we have, so for better or worse, it should be under their banner.

I'd participate (F qualifier) for the fun of it. Ours is typically in Houston. 780 miles one way for a two-day event.

So here's a question from an OD racer. Texas is the only place where much Portsmouth racing is still going on in our Area, I dont own a boat I feel will compete. Seems like you better be sailing a 64 or better DPN boat or the bad air at every start would be a hell of a hole to climb out of...or do the DPN really, truely reflect the difference? I wasn't racing prior to 2005. Were there more than one DPN fleet/start? i.e. fast (w/SPI) & slower fleet, 70 something and up? I assume that era is when most of the "slow boat" DPN's were established. There are a few Hobie sailors that have the skills to beat John Tomko but may not have the boat to do it on? Can't pile on the moniker of Area F qualifier to a Hobie Points regatta any more, so it seems having (10) additional slots for at large is a logical way to go.

FWIW from Mid-West Hobie land.

If you guys want to redesign the event, please consider joining and participating on the Multihull Committee to have the conversation in an open and meaningful manner...I mean that sincerely. You can affect change there. Otherwise, you're just complaining and whining to an already overworked, and small, group of folks who are putting in earnest effort in the event for the betterment of our sport and not personal gain.

The view from within the organization and from within the event is very different than what's being portrayed here. Many of the negative comments and the comments demanding "change" are coming from people that have not only not participated in the championship in years but haven't attended a local qualifier in a very long time. Granted, those that aren't attending the qualifiers are the people that we need to figure out how to fix things for...but, at the same time, there have been a lot of improvements enacted in the last five years - how can you say the system's broken if you haven't tried it?

I challenge you this; participate in the qualifiers - help promote, help organize. Help us figure out how to get people to the qualifiers. Make an effort to understand the challenges and the problems with such an event. Then let's talk seriously about how to make it even better. Otherwise, you're complaining about the way a new car rides by having seen it from the outside when it passed you on freeway.

+1

Why not bring the multihull committee out into the light? Rick could probably arrange something if there was any real interest.

I'm not quite sure what committee your referring to.

I commend the job being done with the Alter Cup. A lot of volunteerism and dedication has resulted in several years of exciting racing. Each year the members behind the scene tweek the event into a better, and better, and even better event. WTG and keep it up!

The area Cs cancellation was best summed up by Mark....plus the economy and ...shortish notice.

Last year's area Cs'qualifier had a strong registration because it piggy-backed on an existing annual event at a club with +40 beachcats. Consequently, there was a core group that were going compete even though it usurped an OD/foruma event. Unfortunately, participation was hampered by "really ugly" weather.

With the growth of formula fleets, we may be approaching a time to revisit the qualifier methodology.....However, that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Pete, they are doing a great job. I am sure they would welcome your comments.
http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult/USMHChampionship/Committee.htm

It might be interesting to read through the minutes to see what ground has been previously covered.

4 out of 7 of those council members have participated in this thread so far. The members of that committee are many of the same people involved in this forum and that we participate in regattas with regularly. You need only to open your eyes to "see the light" {chuckle}

I think the way the current championships is run is top notch. I've had the priviledge of attending a few Alter Cups and they are always really enjoyed by the participants.

I think the only thing that really hurts the area qualifiers is the requirement for the crew to be a member of US Sailing. Many crews just arn't that serious and that causes the skipper to have to buck up an extra 40-50 bucks on top of the regatta fee and his membership. Many skippers wouldn't be members of US Sailing if it were not for the Alter Cup. I still see the Alter Cup as the one true benefit by being a member. (Even though I know US Sailing gives no money to the event but just a name).

My hat's off to the organizers and volunteers for this event. They get nothing but pain from everyone and yet the continue to put on a great event. Also a big thanks to the Manufacturer's who put up the boats.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

You win.

can you take an existing (popular) regatta and piggy back the qualifier on it as well? At least then you'd have the attendees...

Yes, but the current prescription is that those bidding for the AC qualifier should have their own start.

You are missing the problem.

the large majority of racers simply don't care about the Alter Cup qualifier.... its last on the list of events to attend.

In your example.
When given a choice at a popular regatta between a one design class race and a handicap race for the Alter Cup slot the overwhelming majority of sailors will choose the One design Race.

They do not value the Alter Cup Qualifier Slot, a regional interclass championship or the differences in handicap racing. ... So, it's just another local regatta and the strings attached are unacceptable ( don't forget USSA membership)and last on the priority of regattas to attend list.

Basically, they know they will have the most fun racing one design and so WHY should they waste the weekend doing something they don't like?

Either we find a way to make the handicap regatta valuable and interesting to the average racer so that they replace a one design event with the handicap event and show up ... or we dump the qualifiers in areas where we just don't care to play.

Hi,

I'm a "Area C" resident/competitor ..... and the owner of one of the two last "Open" class boats in the area that Mark mentioned .... so why didn't I go????

For me the biggest hurtle is the "US Sailing" membership requirement for the crew .... it's tough enough to find crew ... any crew .... but now I have to find someone who is a US Sailing member also .... now I am a US Sailing member myself but both my boats are two-up ... a TheMightyHobie18 and a P19MX ... so I need crew.

And since I have only very limited employment currently .... $$$$$'s are a issue ....

And one more very personal reason ..... everytime I've gone to the Jersey Shore for pleasure in the recent years .... my friends or I ... or I've witnessed someone being "taxed" by some local police officer in the form of a ch_cken-sh_t ticket .... last year was my turn ... for not wearing my seatbelt ... no NJ license plates were pulled over ...only "out-of state" plates were pulled over and ticketed. It's all about generating revenue for the politions spending ... So personally I have better places to go and spend my $$$$'s then NJ .... added to that fact also is that the only thing cheap in NJ is the gas as the hotels/motels/campsites are too expensive anymore ... (property taxes are very high!!!!)

Harry

So to the residents of NJ .... get your Cops/Polititions under control if you want me to come and play .... w/ my $$$$$'s!!!!!!!

Harry... you have been saving that NJ rant for 10 years....
Feel better now?

Mark,

I don't get to vote in NJ ... so the only way I can have any influence in NJ is to take my $$$'s to Maryland or Delaware or Hatteress ....

Oh by the way I have a "issue" w/ Philadelphia 's Parking Authority you don't even have to go in the city .... they send you tickets in the mail saying pay the fine or else ... my father got one in January when we could prove that he was sitting in the dentists chair having a root canal done ... the PPA said "Just pay the ticket and come in-town for a hearing" .... $$$$$'s and time .... we finally got it squashed by our state rep when he saw the dentists noterized letter ...

I paid that NJ ticket but swore no more NJ for me ...

Past Incidences:
2007- Had Bill Mest pulled over directly in front of me on the way to Shore Acres Regatta for speeding ... we were doing 48-50mph in a 50mph zone ... ask Megan, she was sitting beside me in the truck and witnessed the event
2008/Labor Day- Meet Triple Threat in CapeMay to help bring her home .... Taxi had to go through "Traffic Check-Point Stop/SeatBelt ... 93 tickets issued .... not a single in-state plate ... all tickets to "Out-of State" plates ... whats the statistical probibility of that????
2008/LaborDay: Sitting on Triple Threat in CapeMay Harbor .... Marine Police stopping every boat for "Safety Check" ... lots of tickets written/observed through binoculars ....most boat's had "out-of-state" registrations ....
2009: Given ticket for not wearing my seatbelt while numerous NJ tagged cars went by w/ the drivers not wearing their seatbelts ... only "out-of-state vehicles pulled over ....

Told NJ State Trooper (personal friend) of my observations .... was laughed at ... "that's the way it is in NJ" ....

so ... I DON"T DO NEW JERSEY ANYMORE ......

And how close do I live to NJ???? I even grew up on the NJ Shore spending time every summer at my grandfather's house in Villas NJ .... until my 30's .... started sailing "Cats" at Stone Harbor/122st Beach ... very 1st Hobie event, Wildwood Regatta/"B" Fleet Regatta 1984(?) ....

I refuse to give anymore of my HARDEARNED $$$$'s to a bunch of corrupt NJ cops and Pol's !!!!!

How many Area C Alter Cup Eliminations have I attended?????

How many Div11 Regatta's have I attended in NJ recently????

See any pattern???????

Call me "Hard-Headed" .... but I want fairness and justice for ALL ... not just those w/ NJ license plates when in NJ .....

So I want people to know ... it's not all the Alter Cup format .... but (personally for me) .... location ... location ... location !!!!!!!!

That's just the way it is for me .....

Harry

Mark????

Did you forget about the $32.00 in tolls to get from Maryland to New Jersey on I95 .....

So the next time the Alter Cup Area C Eliminations are in Del or Maryland ... I'll go .... just never, ever, New Jersey !!!!!!

I have found more then enough sailing/racing on the Cheaspeake w/o all the potential hassles .... so who needs to go to New Jersey ..... Snookie???? FYI: She just got arrested today by the way ..... in NewJersey

Ya ... (rightly or wrongly) ... that's great for tourism .....

Harry

Wow, way to kick up the stoke for any regatta. Yea, Jersey sux, I got pulled over here once too- boo hoo. Ummm, don't know where to go with that one. I was signed up for the Alter cup qualifiers, actually wanted to give it a go at the qualifier and potentially go to the finals, but I guess I just gave a donation to US Sailing. Maybe if it was in MD more people would have shown up. Fact of the matter is the venue is one of the best on the East Coast and it's a shame it has been cancelled. This weekend probably isn't going to go off for wind, but Trixies is one hell of a spot, thermal rocked on Wednesday . Too bad it's New Jersey, then maybe some folks would have signed up - get real. I personally know several NJ
State troopers and they are amongst the most upstanding indivduals I've ever met. Perhaps next time you should just wear your seat belt. Hopefully next year they'll pick a spot that works out OK for Harry.

sm

Just to add a note on Mark and Harry. They both did an outstanding job on the Rock Hall Junior Olympics. They got the Multihulls, H-16, into the Junior Olympics for the first time. Got Matt Bounds to be the PRO, who also judged the event, secured Wally Meyers for the Guest Expert seminar, etc. Mark did all the scoring for all sailors, Harry drove over 600 miles one day, bringing Jim Glanden's H-16 down for my grandson to sail, and an RV for Matt to stay in.

They both do a lot for Cat Sailing, but Harry, do wear your seat belt, we want to keep you around.

Caleb

Guys,

Thank You for the compliments ....

But New Jersey's leaders have to learn that their actions are not helping their tourism industry w/ their attitude of "milk the tourists for all they got and then some ...."

And I didn't even mention that after you run the guantlet of over zealous law enforcement officials .... the too expensive hotels/motels/campingsites ... and you do finally get out on the water to race .... then there are the "Power Boaters" .... hundreds and hundreds of them charging all over Barneget Bay .... every which way .... making the bay a "washing machine" .... passing with-in feet of you on their way somewhere .... it's not enjoyable trying to race when all you hear are loud engines and fear getting run over as you try to pound through power boat chop .... imagine +100 Cigarette/Speed boats racing down Barneget Bay ... w/ photo helicopter .... charging straight at you ... going throught your race course ..... that was several years ago ...

.... no more for me .....

Bob Bergsted is a GREAT person and a truely nice guy .... Trixie's in the fall is a lovely spot to sail when all the power boaters go home to watch football .... just not in the summer ....

Harry

HARRY....Put on your SEATBELT!

I will not read your reply, because there is not a reply worth reading...if your life isn't worth it your meatballs are. Are you not important to your niece?

"Last year's area Cs'qualifier had a strong registration because it piggy-backed on an existing annual event at a club with +40 beachcats. Consequently, there was a core group that were going compete even though it usurped an OD/foruma event. Unfortunately, participation was hampered by "really ugly" weather."

One correction if I may...it was not a od/formuma event in the previous two or three years...it was a open class event with one start. It was a perfect fit.

About the whole Alter Cup entrance requirements, do they not already take National Champ. from each class, (F18's, Hobie 16, A Cat, etc.) and add to that list all the Area Qualifier winners?

If so, good. If not, why not? Or are the class champions the ones who are the "petition" entrants?

Seek and ye shall find.

Thanks John. Interesting that only two "rotating class champions..." are chosen yet the Tornado class is named explicitly. Now that the Tornado is not an Olympic class, do they still put on a "Tornado Nationals"?

Most of the former T guys are sailing F18's or something else now, right? No disrespect to the Tornado class, I was all for keeping them in the Olympics, but I have not heard/seen too much T Class racing since they were dropped.

The conditions are up for modification typically once per year - the last time they were edited, I think there was still some hope for the Tornado in the Olympics.

Jake's right - the Conditions change a bit year to year sometime before the first Qualifier is sailed. No mods this year, although several are under discussion for the 2011 sailing season. That's why this sort of discussion is vital. Thanks for the input, Tim.

That's why it should be initiated by USS.

Who do you think "USS" is, Pete?

A very few paid staffers, a larger number of volunteers and lastly the dues paying members.

So of those groups, who do you think should initiate the changes we're discussing?

Guys,

While I will stand by my feelings and actions about New Jersey ... I should apologize to Bob Bergsted, Mark Santorelli and "Rondo" whom all put alot of effort into trying to hold the Area "C" Alter Cup Eliminations at Trixie's .....

And yes I'm being stupid when I don't wear a seat belt which is a bad habit I picked-up from my past Chevy Pick-up's since the shoulder strap would pass directly over my neck and chin ... uncomfortable, unadjustable and very poorly designed (and deadly in my opinion since it could/would crush you trachia in an accident).

But the point was ... out-of-state residents are "profiled" and targeted by local law enforcement .... and you should hear some of the stories my "minority" friends tell about their experiences in NJ at the hands of "law enforcement" ....

Hopefully some NJ businessmen and residents will speak up to their "leaders" and make a point that their behavior is not having a positive effect ... but a hugely negative one ....

Let's move on ....

This debate remined me that my US Sailing membership is up for renewal in August .... today is August 1st .... so I need to call Ms. Kate Daley/Membership Director at US Sailing tomorrow and renew my membership .... through the US Multihull Council!!!!!

Got to run now .... going to Rock Hall Yacht Club in Rock Hall Maryland for the afternoon to relax and do alittle sailing ....

And I'll make sure to wear my seatbelt ... in my F-150 Ford Pick-up .... (I solved Chevy's design problem .... I purchased a Ford ... my first and I really like it ....)

Harry

The only change I'm sure of is the need for better communication. I would hope that could be driven by the multihull committee though I don't see why it shouldn't be welcomed from any corner.

Specifically, I'd like to see the minutes of the meetings or a synopsis. If the general membership was made aware of the difficulties the committee face there might at least be some sympathy and perhaps even a modicum of understanding.

My experience in trying to fill a leadership role is that sailors are like a school of fish: they stick together, they know where they want to go, but not necessarily the best route, and they're startled by the least disturbance. They don't talk much either. That makes them a difficult group to lead.

Seek and ye shall find.

Thank you sir. Any more discussion about H16 since this meeting?

Next meeting:

2010 Annual Meeting
Embassy Suites Hotel
Phoenix / Scottsdale Arizona
October 20 - 23, 2010

Anyone want to be Council chair?

John,

How about getting a yearly report from each Area rep about what the current status of cat racing in the Area is.

What OD classes are active in the area.
What is the status of open class racing.
Do you have many dead boats actively racing.
How active is the racing scene (Schedule)
What percentage of each fleet is turning out for events.
What are the trends for each one design fleet
What is the status of your area qualifier and the racers interest in a National Championship?
What is the status of Junior Sailing? Names and numbers.
What is the status of charity or special sailing activities (Special Olympics).
What is the contact information for the Class leader in each area?

Combined with information from the national class leadership... I would say the MHC could then make informed judgments and recommendations on just what the MHC and each area might focus on.

The contact list of class leaders in each area would allow the MHC to keep the leadership informed and they would be able to get information out to the rank an file.

The reports would be published (See the Hobie Class assn div reports).

I view this as a reality check... For example, in the matter of qualifiers for the USSA championship... Area C has been struggling for years to find the right formula.... If the other Area's have similar issues, a consensus can form to change and then the push to change up the structure can gain some traction forward. If we just react to the predictable crisis ..... nothing positive seems to ever happen.

JW, thanks for the link to the minutes, but now I'm confused (more than usual). I saw this:

Mission Bay and Ocean Springs are interested in submitting a bid for 2011.

Mission Bay will included 20 Waves in their bid

I thought it was already decided that Vipers were going to be used in the next AC?

Youi mean Vipers for the America's Cup???

Now that IS news!

Well Scuttlebutt is running a poll for what should be the next America's Cup boat, Mono or Multi. I said they should race it on A cats.

LOL, I stand corrected....Open class attended by only OD & Formula classes; N20, A-Cats, and F-16s (2008). One start (grudgingly for some), scored overall and by fleet (best of both worlds).

That request sounds more like a census than an "area director's report", but I think that information would be a good idea.

I'm sure it's based on two very crucial points:
- every regatta submit their results to USS
- some poor volunteer (or area person) compile all the data. This mght work if there were some common technology used (spreadsheet, etc)to facilitate

What would be the purpose of this data? Designing future regattas? Area 'marketing' and regatta promotion?

Yes.

I'm trying to discover why there is so little support for Alter Cup.

I'm amazed that we don't have 100+ boats for Area D south!

If you don't buy into the competition it's still a great excuse to go to the beach! Spectatin' is THE great American past time!

My wife and I just drove up to Daytona for Gilligan's. I figured the surf would be too high for me so I left the boat home, paid my registration just as a donation (team "Honda on the Beach" was not scored however), and attended the fish fry. Well, there were more people at the party than there were on the water and everyone had a good time! The point is my wife and I had perfectly nice beach weekend even without a boat.

btw- dollar for dollar I got better value at the fish fry than at most restaurants! Murph and his crew are serious about fish!

Pete, if a person is not interested in actually racing in the Alter Cup, or knows they have little chance of winning the Qualifier, why would they go to the qualifier in the first place? I'll go to any regatta if it's:

1. a short drive (2hr. vs. 10hrs.)
2. I can get the days off
3. there will be a good turnout for my class

But I figure if I have no desire (or chance) to do the Alter Cup, (especially if it's on the west coast) if I show up at the Qualifier, I'm just "in the way" of the those who are real Alter Cup contenders.

Perhpas that's why there was so little turnout for Area C? Maybe the regular guys who race in that area have no intention of doing the Alter Cup, so what's the point of doing the AC Qualifier?

My own personal view is, the Alter Cup should just choose the N/A Champions from every class that runs a N/A's, and then fill up any empty slots with pettitions. The whole "Area Qualifier" concept is lost on me, especially if it's going to be a P number regatta. But I guess for the sailors who sail "dead boats" a P number regatta is the only way to get in?

"May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your...". Clearly you've never eaten Murph's fish.

Timbo,

Personally, I've never had a realistic chance of winning the Area"C" Eliminations .... but if you want to get better at any sport .... you need to compete against competitors better then yourself .....

And I get the chance to race against those that I usually don't get to compete against usually, since they have a different O/D boat then I do ....

Those are the main reasons I have done numerous Area"C" Eliminations over the years ......

Harry

Tim, I was just kidding about the fleas.

You travel so much I can see why you wouldn't want to do a lot of unnecessary driving. But most people don't travel so much and I can't understand why they don't come down to the beach just to see what's going on.

Money is always a problem for the organizers. So even if you didn't want to sail you might buy a hot dog or contribute to some other sort of fund raiser.

There are lots of reasons to hang out with sailors that don't involve getting your feet wet. At Gilligan's it was a hoot attending the fish fry and listening to the war stories from those that fought the surf (a few lost that battle!). And, I had a very nice dinner, as well. Another time I remember hearing about some guy dragging his boat through mangroves at 1:00 in the morning...

Correct... A census is a start... The powers that be probably have an accurate picture of the large and small boat multihull scene...the rank and file... not so much. But running a very public census and information gathering process will get you some buy in and comprehension from the rank and file when they look at the data as well.

Do I expect a vigorous response... NO... it' just the way of the world. (Ask the OD classes how much feedback, etc they get). BUT if the MHC listen's hard enough, the national agenda they set will get broad support from the rank and file... The USSA Membership tax will be worth the money.

The MHC sits above the level of organization of Catamaran One Design classes. The idea is that if the OD classes can form a consensus around a common agenda on issues larger then a OD classes concerns. Then, we can improve the sport in our niche of the sailing world.

For example, Coastal distance racing on beach cats is such an issue. Organizing authorities are concerned about safety and safety gear requirements. All OD class sailors would benefit if the Official USSA gave a good house keeping seal of approval on a set of regulations that the OA could just reference for this kind of racing. Good News... It's in the works.

Answers to questions like.. Do your events use certified race officers and judges? How many etc etc.
At the local level, you could make a difference in Race Management and Judging to get good events. USSA has taken a good old boy network of retired racers who volunteered as judges and replaced it with serious active sailors who stay current on rules and work to improve the conduct of the sport as judges. The MHC needs to encourage and support the regional MHC of OD classes and DBS and support the host YC's in making sure they use the USSA system to the fullest. Bottom Line... USSA has Eric R's around the country.... They may not race Isotopes or any small cat... but your club can use a guy like Eric to make the game fair, fun and run smoothly. (Cats have an old culture of we don't need this official organizational BS... and/or we will do it our selves.)

Answers to how many events and venues and turnout numbers can be used to coordinate and strengthen the racing. Are we overscheduled? Can your region benefit from some coordination between the One Design Classes and the unorganized DBS? Coordination comes about when you get people in the same room looking for good answers to make great regattas.

In my area... the dinghy one design classes have completely given up on coordinating activity years ago. (Hey... they will just worry about their own class activity with each YC).. One of the outcomes however is that the host YC's are looking at small turnouts and so they cut back on the social and the vicious cycle downwards continues. Now the YC are just dropping their regattas. Miles river YC killed their annual event and Severn Sailing Assn is left with running many weekend regattas (which are now just one day regattas) for 10 boats.... Hardly, a memorable regatta experience.

Perhaps some areas can maximize the fun at the local level by fostering strong well run regattas at the right YC's with multiple OD classes or several PN fleets or whatever works.

Well if I'm going to take the time and spend the money, I'm going to bring my boat and race for sure. While you were doing the beach patrol at Gilligans, I was flying to Tel Aviv.

Right now as I type this I am sitting in the Atlanta pilot loung headding to Dubai tonight, so I might get a shot at picking up some Camel Fleas, no doubt! Flying 5 on, 2 off doesn't leave me much time for sailing, I haven't even been out in my back yard in two weeks. I just hope my mast is still up when I get home from this trip! Some big storm we had last night in Sebring! I've got the boat all tied down to trees...so as long as the trees don't fall down on it...

Murph, I agree about racing against better tallent, seems everytime I race I learn something. But us guys who are not -retired- don't have as much time as Pete does to sail, or go to the beach, etc.

All we really need is just two things: More time off and more money!

Well I must be half way there ..... w/ this economy ... I have plenty of time off ..... I just don't have the "money" part ........

Harry

See, that's the problem right there, when you have the time off, you don't have the money, and when you have the money, you don't have the time off! I was out on disability for 9mo. last year (a bug I picked up in Kuwait City)...but couldn't afford to go to a movie, let alone a regatta!