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Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12)

Posted By: drbinkle

Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 03:15 PM

Here's the link to the regatta site:

http://www.catfest.net/catfest_2010.htm

If you're planning on attending, please pre-register. This is a great venue with plenty of campsites and top notch facilities. It will also be an opportunity to get out and practice at the same location as this year's D North Alter Cup Qualifier.

Hope to see everyone there!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 03:20 PM

For you out of townies:

CatFest 2010 ,120 Ruby Lane, Gastonia, NC 28054
Posted By: drbinkle

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 03:32 PM

Thanks Timbo. That address is Scott Smith's (regatta organizer) home address in case you wanted to send the entry fee with your pre-registration, but it's not required.

The closest address I could find for the club is:

297 Yacht Road
Mooresville, NC 28117

It's about 10-15 minutes from I-77, about 45 minutes north of Charlotte NC.
Posted By: MarkW_F18

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 03:59 PM

I'm there..
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 06:08 PM

Dave and I will be there, launching the new F20c - "Alpha Cat"
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 06:50 PM

watchout for the rating on that one :P
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 07:15 PM

provisional numbers issued

D-PN = 57.9

BN-HC
0-1 = 61.8
2-3 = 58.2
4 = 58.0
5-9 = 57.3
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 07:37 PM

I'm there on the A
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


Bring the N20, pansy.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


Bring the N20, pansy.


yeah yeah....I may not make it until Saturday morning and the 20 minute boat setup is much more attractive than is another opportunity to whoop up on you guys at the moment. grin
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 09:19 PM

I wish I could make it but Joleen signed us up to run the Force 5 Nationals this week(end). Sigh - Catfest is always fun.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 09:24 PM

Hmmm

ARC 22 ODR spi (SC22) ARC22 57.0 60.4 57.8 56.7 55.3


Marstrom 20 carbon spi M20 58.0 61.0 59.0 57.5 55.0

Nacra F20 NF20 57.9 61.8 58.2 58.0 57.3

I am a bit surprised that the F20 is slower then the ARC 22! Having the rating a microsecond faster then the M20 is just politics. (it's an insignificant difference)

Texel ratings for 20 footers'

Nacra 20... 96
Tornado... 94
Eagle 20.... 89-96 (multiple configs)
Marstrom 20... 85 to 91 (multiple configs)
Nacra F20... 89
Hobie Fox Concept 89

So... on average.. the new carbon boats are 5 to 6 minutes per 100 minutes faster then standard fiberglass cored boats.

The fatal problem for USPN is this... from USSA PN site.
* That each boat placing first in each class was sailed to its true potential by a perfect crew according to flawless strategy;

Translated... this means that when you sail the any boat to its number you win. So... when you are the only boat... you sailed it perfectly...and given the numbers of US boats.
F20 1
M20 2
Arc 22.... 10?

The finish times of the single F20 will represent a perfectly sailed boat against the rest of the fleet.... By definition! pretty soon.... the F20 rating database is simply the owners personal handicap data ...It is not a measure of the boats performance... (unless you think Mike always sails perfect races)

The Portsmouth math simply won't work to generate an accurate rating for the F20 with so few boats out there racing in the US.

We should just use Texel or SCHRS measurement handicaps and stop pretending that PN will work for these new designs in the current environment.

Alternatively... just bracket the boats that use a guesstimate of the USPN rating (based on Texel or SCHRS) and freeze the USPN rating until a fleet materializes and the statistics have some meaning. I would say that a class needs a One design schedule and sufficient multiple boat data points in PN races before it's rating can be unfrozen and the bracket removed.

The world is unkind to boats that don't sail to their measurement rating... (especially if they don't get enough support to form a One Design class)
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 09:41 PM

Mark,

The provisional rating was derived by looking at the SCHRS ratings and associated boats. It wasn't just a wild butt guess on the portsmouth committee's part. Whether or not it accurately reflects our performance remains to be seen. Until we hit the water, it's all speculation...

-Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 09:51 PM

Have you been on the water enough to get a feel for the boat?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 09:58 PM

still in the assembly stage. Friday should be the first splash
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/07/10 10:10 PM

Mike

I am sure the USPN guestimated interpolated, calculated... what ever ... the rating from SCHRS or Texel.... but that's not the point. The accuracy of the rating is not the issue.

After 5 races... the provisional status changes... after 15 races ... *not regattas just races) the brackets are removed.... The USPN committee can run the numbers and adjust the F20 DPN rating...

If they do this... the rating will simply reflect your performance. The PN system is just not designed to work well this way...

My solution is just to leave the brackets on the F20 rating until a US Fleet develops and generates enough data from enough different helms for the portsmouth math to work.... Likewise for the M20's and other one of a kind boats.. (CFR 20).

Remember... it was a political decision that brackets around a rating prevented an owner from racing it in the Area Championships. That is the only practical importance of brackets around a rating.

Just let the bracketed ratings represent classes that are not yet statistically averaged (but the PN committee is collecting wind speed data)


Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 12:04 AM

But what if he wants to race it in an area championship?

You buyin' one Mark? I didn't think so. MYOFB, bud.
That'd be A cat, in case ya forgot.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 12:44 AM

Todd

Fair ratings are every one's business... The F16 FUBAR is proof that the issue should be dealt with at the very beginning....

Racing the F20 in an area championship is only a problem if the process that generates the rating is unfair or formed in a smoke filled room someplace. Remember, It was an area championship that precipitated the F16 FUBAR in the first place. It was an area championship that caused the bracket rule to be enforced in the qualifiers.

If you are using a PN measurement rating that is derived from a SCHRS or Texel measurement rating and interpolated for USPN... so long as the boat in question measures in... aka is a stock boat in the case of the OD F20... What is the problem?

The M20's and CFR 20's can get measured under SCHRS or Texel... get a firm measurement cert and rating ... and translate it to portsmouth and race a qualifier if they want... My proposal is to keep the rating anchored (put brackets around the ratings) until fleets materialize with data.

The rating will be fair to all of the competitors at a qualifier... It will be fair to the F20 owner. The USPN system won't be corrupted anymore then it already is. The process is strait forward and clear. It eliminates much of the politics and BS around ratings (See past history of F16 and to a lesser extent the F18HT, F18, N20 ratings development).

However, you only get the benefit when you publicly announce the policy and put it in writing.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


Bring the N20, pansy.


yeah yeah....I may not make it until Saturday morning and the 20 minute boat setup is much more attractive than is another opportunity to whoop up on you guys at the moment. grin


Sh*t's weak, old man.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


Bring the N20, pansy.


yeah yeah....I may not make it until Saturday morning and the 20 minute boat setup is much more attractive than is another opportunity to whoop up on you guys at the moment. grin


Sh*t's weak, old man.


hah....soon. The General needs to stretch his legs soon though.


Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 12:56 PM

First; the F16 rating debocle was not the failure of Portsmouth. It was a failure of the people running it at the time. The launch of the F16 coincided at the time the management of the Portsmouth Handicap numbers transitioned to new management. Very few people understood the software, it was old and difficult (nearly impossible) to run on a modern computer, and the new management was not able to respond quickly. Ergo, the F16 existed with an unadjusted number for an extended period before Ms. Hobock reclaimed the role and immediately started updating Portsmouth which saw a quick and steady correction on the F16 number. Now that she has passed on (God bless her), there is new management in place that looks like they're getting a good (and very responsive) handle on things.

Some of you guys think a handicap system should be perfect - fact is that it is not possible to make a handicap system perfect in sailing or any other sport. The world just doesn't work that way. It's not the nature of any handicap system. We have two basic types of handicap systems available; Portsmouth - based on performance data and Texel - which is based upon strict math using boat design parameters. Both have strengths, both have weaknesses. With Portsmouth, the weakness is establishing a rating on a new boat with no performance data and rating creep for boats that age and don't have top sailors on them (although there is some statistical math in the formula to reduce this effect). With Texel, the weakness is a rigid formula that can't account for small differences between boat designs and the potential that manufacturers can start designing boats to leverage weaknesses in the formula (like monohulls do with all their measurement based rating systems). Both have strengths; for Portsmouth, it's potentially a more accurate system as it is flexible and accommodates small design differences between similar boats and is designed to change over time. For Texel, it is easy to establish a rating for a new boat. Both systems are quite accurate as far as handicap systems go.

Which is better? It's a personal preference. I personally feel like they both are good systems and take no issue with either. When I race under handicap I expect there to be differences in the ratings that I need to overcome. It's part of the program...hell, it is in the brochure.

Do I have a problem with the Portsmouth Rating on the F20? No. It will shake itself out - it's how the system works. It's how it was designed to work. Is it an accurate rating? Hell if I know - the design has barely even hit the water in Europe. I just want to see the sucker fly and if it beats me it won't be any different than when Mike beat me out of 1st place by two points two weeks ago on A-cats.


Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 01:36 PM

Sh*t's weak and MYOFB, geeze guys way to think it through.

Put your personal feelings for Mark aside for 2 minutes and read what he's saying. All he's saying is the brackets (provisional number) need to stay on until there is supporting data for the number and all that means is the F20 cannot be used at the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. I for one am in 100% agreement with Mark on that point. The Area Qualifiers have their own issues and allowing boats to be used at a qualifier that have unsupported numbers is a bad idea.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Sh*t's weak and MYOFB, geeze guys way to think it through.

Put your personal feelings for Mark aside for 2 minutes and read what he's saying. All he's saying is the brackets (provisional number) needs to stay on until there is supporting data for the number and all that means is the F20 cannot be used at the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. I for one am in 100% agreement with Mark on that point. The Area Qualifiers have their own issues and allowing boats to be used at a qualifier that have unsupported numbers is a bad idea.


Correct me if I'm wrong - but nobody said anything about using the boat in a qualifier except Mark. The boat does have a provisional number which does not currently allow it to compete in the Alter Cup Qualifier. Is 5 events enough information to establish a non-provisional number? If that non-provisional set point was increased from 5 to, say, 10 we are probably going to lose 1/3rd of the existing Portmouth non-provisional numbers to provisional status since so few regattas submit results.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:07 PM

Leadership! He can't wait for a new boat to show up and then just tell them no! I can't wait to see this boat on the water, but not at a qualifier without the proper number.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:12 PM

Since when did Mike say he was going to use it in the qualifier?

I'm pretty sure he's got at least 8 other boats he could use for that event smile
Posted By: pgp

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:16 PM

That isn't the point, imo. It is still a question of leadership and being proactive; making sure policy and procedure is well understood before problems arise.


Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:17 PM

You are correct Jake, nobody but Mark and I said anything about using the boat at the Area Qualifier, but in my opinion the only place this is an issue is at an Area Qualifier so that's the context I used. In fact, based on Marks comments it appears he believes anything outside an Area Qualifier is also a lesser issue but, I could be wrong which has been known to happen from time to time, you know cause I'm old.

Posted By: tshan

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The F16 FUBAR is proof that the issue should be dealt with at the very beginning....


From my perspective, the F16 original handicap number was derived from Taipan 4.9 numbers with an adjustment for spi and other factors (there has been a lot of discussion on the how's of this). As soon as there was enough critical mass for a F16 US Class Association, the Association lobbied for D-PN changes (rightly or wrongly dropping the 1-up number) and actively pursued results to submit to the Portsmouth Committee - which contributed to changes in the rating.

I only point this out because your post could be misconstrued, by the uninformed, that F16 sailors were intentionally misleading the Portsmouth Committee. The actuality is the lack of results (and/or the in-action upon available results - numerous reasons and not placing blame) and rapid optimization of the F16 platform led to a "slow to correct rating". The only thing F16 sailors didn't do is request a lower handicap number at local regattas - which I have never seen done by a H17 or a F17 or any other suppsoed "cherry handicap" boat.

I, too, wish there was a way to get to the "proper" rating quicker - but I think singling out the F16 as a FUBAR does an injustice to the F16 Class. It may be the latest example, but that does not mean any more than the systematic approach to zeroing in on a number may need to be reviewed (as you alluded to lower in your post).
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:33 PM

About the regatta...

There is a local N20 sailor that is looking for crew - we need to find the guy somebody so he can play with us (and hopefully get him to put that boat on the trailer and head down the road occasionally). Anybody up for crewing on a 20 this weekend just outside of Charlotte, NC?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Sh*t's weak and MYOFB, geeze guys way to think it through.

Put your personal feelings for Mark aside for 2 minutes and read what he's saying. All he's saying is the brackets (provisional number) needs to stay on until there is supporting data for the number and all that means is the F20 cannot be used at the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. I for one am in 100% agreement with Mark on that point. The Area Qualifiers have their own issues and allowing boats to be used at a qualifier that have unsupported numbers is a bad idea.


Correct me if I'm wrong - but nobody said anything about using the boat in a qualifier except Mark. The boat does have a provisional number which does not currently allow it to compete in the Alter Cup Qualifier. Is 5 events enough information to establish a non-provisional number? If that non-provisional set point was increased from 5 to, say, 10 we are probably going to lose 1/3rd of the existing Portmouth non-provisional numbers to provisional status since so few regattas submit results.


Ah you edited your post...

No, 5 events as described is not enough to remove the brackets in my opinion. And Yes, there are a LOT of boats that currently don't have provisional numbers but by all rights should (SC22, SC20 (tall rig) and M20 all come to mind)! If I were the supreme ruler of the DPN universe there would be a truckload of boats with brackets! Heck, I'd even take it a step further and use SCHRS as a base then allow the number to move as supporting data dictated. But on the flip side, as the talent moved out of the class the boat would not be allowed to get slower. Yes I know... I'm a dick.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:46 PM

I don't read my post well enough before I hit submit and end up editing them a lot after the first one goes up....apparently I'm getting old too.

I don't disagree with what you said - but I'm not sure about what impact changing the quantity of results required for provisional/non-provisional might have on the qualifiers and who can attend. It would take some investigation and historical scenario math.

Regardless, I think everyone gets too worked up over handicap racing. It's not perfect nor will it ever be.

Posted By: pgp

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
[quote=Jake][quote=David Ingram]... If I were the supreme ruler of the DPN universe there would be a truckload of boats with brackets! Heck, I'd even take it a step further and use SCHRS as a base then allow the number to move as supporting data dictated. But on the flip side, as the talent moved out of the class the boat would not be allowed to get slower. Yes I know... I'm a dick.



+1 So move your suggetion up the line and see how it is received. Imo, it is a perfectly reasonable way to modernize the numbers.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


I don't disagree with what you said - but I'm not sure about what impact changing the quantity of results required for provisional/non-provisional might have on the qualifiers and who can attend. It would take some investigation and historical scenario math.



And Jake my friend that is the tough nut to crack! When looking at the data you can't ignore the talent on the boats contained in the data. We both know how difficult it can be to rank sailors nationally even when they are sailing the same boat. Then when you throw in the different boat variable... holy headache batman.

Yes I know we aren't ranking teams and boats but the thought process must be very similar when you are determining if a number should be adjusted.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake


I don't disagree with what you said - but I'm not sure about what impact changing the quantity of results required for provisional/non-provisional might have on the qualifiers and who can attend. It would take some investigation and historical scenario math.



And Jake my friend that is the tough nut to crack! When looking at the data you can't ignore the talent on the boats contained in the data. We both know how difficult it can be to rank sailors nationally even when they are sailing the same boat. Then when you throw in the different boat variable... holy headache batman.

Yes I know we aren't ranking teams and boats but the thought process must be very similar when you are determining if a number should be adjusted.


I was only talking about the boats that might drop to provisional status due to changing the requirement from 5 data references to 10....they would no longer be eligible to compete in a qualifier - so was wondering how many boats that might cost the events. That wouldn't be so tough....and it's probably a pretty small number but it still is going in the wrong direction toward boosting attendance.
Posted By: drbinkle

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
About the regatta...

There is a local N20 sailor that is looking for crew - we need to find the guy somebody so he can play with us (and hopefully get him to put that boat on the trailer and head down the road occasionally). Anybody up for crewing on a 20 this weekend just outside of Charlotte, NC?



Help a fellow cat sailor out. Tad, fly in like the rock star that you are. I'll come pick you up at the airport. laugh
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 05:45 PM

I'm a grossly overweight and fat Suck Star right now.

The plane couldn't take off with me in it. Much less a boat float with me on it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm a grossly overweight and fat Suck Star right now.

The plane couldn't take off with me in it. Much less a boat float with me on it.


Put down the bon-bons and take the dog for a jog!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake


I don't disagree with what you said - but I'm not sure about what impact changing the quantity of results required for provisional/non-provisional might have on the qualifiers and who can attend. It would take some investigation and historical scenario math.



And Jake my friend that is the tough nut to crack! When looking at the data you can't ignore the talent on the boats contained in the data. We both know how difficult it can be to rank sailors nationally even when they are sailing the same boat. Then when you throw in the different boat variable... holy headache batman.

Yes I know we aren't ranking teams and boats but the thought process must be very similar when you are determining if a number should be adjusted.


I was only talking about the boats that might drop to provisional status due to changing the requirement from 5 data references to 10....they would no longer be eligible to compete in a qualifier - so was wondering how many boats that might cost the events. That wouldn't be so tough....and it's probably a pretty small number but it still is going in the wrong direction toward boosting attendance.


I knew that's what you meant but chose to talk about the tougher nut. The debate about tightening up the handicap system at the cost of reducing attendance would probably turn into a circular argument anyway because I'd take the position that if the system was tighten up the potential loss of participation might be offset by those long disenchanted by the current system. I know there are DPN haters out there and many have simply buried themselves in their own OD and formula classes, so I yeah I might be reaching a bit.

I also do not want anyone to think that I have in anyway soften my position on open handicap racing. I'm still a hater.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 06:46 PM

JC and I are stating P90X like... tomorrow.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
JC and I are stating P90X like... tomorrow.


Be sure to post pictures here of the progress. Banana hammock optional.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Undecided
JC and I are stating P90X like... tomorrow.


Be sure to post pictures here of the progress. Banana hammock optional.


So, you're saying, I can either wear the bananna hammock, or NOT?

Wow Brett... never knew you would appreciate that view :P
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 07:49 PM

I dare you
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 08:19 PM

i UNdare you...
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
i UNdare you...


Hush. You're ruining the experiment.
Posted By: MarkW_F18

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/08/10 08:58 PM

This tread is getting Offtrack and Disturbing.. between being high jacked with discussion of F16/F20 ratings... and the image of Tad in a Banana Hammock.... EEEhhhhUUUUU!!! Hope you are not chasing anyone away from CatFest...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Sh*t's weak and MYOFB, geeze guys way to think it through.

Put your personal feelings for Mark aside for 2 minutes and read what he's saying. All he's saying is the brackets (provisional number) need to stay on until there is supporting data for the number and all that means is the F20 cannot be used at the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. I for one am in 100% agreement with Mark on that point. The Area Qualifiers have their own issues and allowing boats to be used at a qualifier that have unsupported numbers is a bad idea.


Hey Ding,
Mark's my bud. I was just pushing his buttons.I realized a long time ago ,it's no sense arguing about ratings systems,except to have a few laughs.It's just like the make-up/ pig thing.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Sh*t's weak and MYOFB, geeze guys way to think it through.

Put your personal feelings for Mark aside for 2 minutes and read what he's saying. All he's saying is the brackets (provisional number) need to stay on until there is supporting data for the number and all that means is the F20 cannot be used at the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. I for one am in 100% agreement with Mark on that point. The Area Qualifiers have their own issues and allowing boats to be used at a qualifier that have unsupported numbers is a bad idea.


Hey Ding,
Mark's my bud. I was just pushing his buttons.I realized a long time ago ,it's no sense arguing about ratings systems,except to have a few laughs.It's just like the make-up/ pig thing.


Yep, the ratings argument will be a neverending debate, and almost always spirals downhill.
"It's like putting makeup on a Todd Hart."
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by MarkW_F18
This tread is getting Offtrack and Disturbing.. between being high jacked with discussion of F16/F20 ratings... and the image of Tad in a Banana Hammock.... EEEhhhhUUUUU!!! Hope you are not chasing anyone away from CatFest...


This place has been lacking drama for some time anyway! ;-)
Posted By: Acat230

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


But you should be at North Cape Yacht Club at the A-Class North Americans dude smirk!
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Acat230
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm there on the A


But you should be at North Cape Yacht Club at the A-Class North Americans dude smirk!


I know...but I'm building a garage and needed to save my last week of vacation to knock out the wiring and plumbing before I can sub out the finish work.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 03:35 PM

The area qualifier eligibility issue is simply a red herring.

By decree it's a handicap regatta. Why? because it needs to include all of the active racers in the region to award slots.

So, .... to include ALL classes... you need a FAIR handicap system that includes ALL Classes... even those with just one or two active boats.

By tradition, we us the USPN system. The current USPN system... fails the fairness for all test!... If you have brackets around your class... you can't play.... more importantly... the fairness of the rating, once you have removed the brackets is suspect as well.

The solution for qualifiers... is to simply decree that the qualifiers will use SHCRS or TEXEL, two widely used measurement rating systems. My reading of the Area Championship requirements would allow you to do this by simply declaring your pick of the handicap system in the NOR.

The F20 has a fair measurement rating right now and if Mike wins a qualifier... it will be because he sailed his new boat close to it's rating more often then the rest of the fleet sailed their boat to their rating. End of discussion.

My previous comments are simple attempts to patch up the old USPN system by plugging the holes and putting some duct tape over the BS. Personally, times have changed... I believe that we should move on and adopt SCHRS or TEXEL. (Where is Carl Roberts in this discussion giving me **** for changing my position)

Posted By: drbinkle

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by MarkW_F18
This tread is getting Offtrack and Disturbing.. between being high jacked with discussion of F16/F20 ratings... and the image of Tad in a Banana Hammock.... EEEhhhhUUUUU!!! Hope you are not chasing anyone away from CatFest...


All of this commotion and not a single additional participant on the entry list.

For all of those that have pre-registered, Tad has promised there will be no banana hammocks. Unfortunately, Brett and Trey have made no promises.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 04:10 PM

The network I'm on won't let me open the links. Not pre-registered, but I'll be there.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by dbncsu



For all of those that have pre-registered, Tad has promised there will be no banana hammocks.


He lies.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 04:16 PM

gotcha.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by dbncsu
Originally Posted by MarkW_F18
This tread is getting Offtrack and Disturbing.. between being high jacked with discussion of F16/F20 ratings... and the image of Tad in a Banana Hammock.... EEEhhhhUUUUU!!! Hope you are not chasing anyone away from CatFest...


All of this commotion and not a single additional participant on the entry list.

For all of those that have pre-registered, Tad has promised there will be no banana hammocks. Unfortunately, Brett and Trey have made no promises.


It's been a while since the participation list was updated. I let them know at the first part of the week I was coming but my name isn't on there. Expect more people than the list shows at the moment.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 07:10 PM

First peek of the boat on the trailer.

Only took two of us to lift and pin it in place.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 07:11 PM

SWEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!
Posted By: MarkW_F18

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 07:22 PM

Very NIIIIICE!!!! Hate to fall on top of one of those bows. It might just cut you in half.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 07:35 PM

they're actually bigger than they look in the photo. The graphic wrap he has on there distorts the optics a bit.

The sail is going to make you go into a trance when you see it :P
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 07:43 PM

Dear Santa, i will be a good boy (i promise) if i can have one of those for x-mas!
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/09/10 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided


The sail is going to make you go into a trance when you see it :P


+1
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/15/10 04:06 PM

Chris Zander took some pics of the new F20c last weekend

For the first outing in 0-10 knots of breeze, it had no problem sailing to it's rating in the 0-5, and 5-10 wind ranges we saw. It absolutely outperformed my expectations...



Zander Pics - click here

-Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/15/10 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz


WOWza - THATS HOT!
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/15/10 07:38 PM

Well (since I couldn't make it), how was CatFest?

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: MarkW_F18

Re: Catfest - LNYC this weekend (Sept. 11-12) - 09/16/10 01:57 PM

We got off 3 1/2 races on Sat and a 1/2 race on Sunday... you noticed the 1/2 races... both days races were abandoned due to lack of wind. The 3 races on Sat were probably 4 to 8 knots... Actually double trapped for one leg in the first race, but that didn't last long. Wind was oscillating a good 15-20 degrees so it made it challenging, but also made it interesting and fun.. Even though the wind wasn't that great, still a fun regatta.. Catered by Moe's Southwest and the raffle prizes were awesome. Thanks Scott, Claude, Allison and the rest of the LNYC crew.
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