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Sail graphics

Posted By: Headhunter

Sail graphics - 09/16/10 07:53 PM

Iím considering having some large graphics done over a laminate main. So question for some of you sponsored guys Ė any pitfalls with large vinyl graphics I should watch out for? Company recommendations (Iím in Tampa/St Pete, FL)? Any insight is helpful.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:04 PM

I've always liked what they do for the Hobies and F18s in Europe. They basically cover the sails with stuff (check out the H16 European championships sites).

Anyone Euro guys here know what they use over there?

When I had sponsors, I had a sailmaker do the graphics for my H16, but they were small, and the sail was Dacron, so I'm not sure if my experience will help you.

Having said that, I would think that a good sailmaker would be able to help. There are plenty of big boats here with graphics on their huge spinnakers, etc.

Mike
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:09 PM

The graphics that I have had done for my sails have been done at Fastsigns in Tampa. They have done great work! It's a chain, so you'll probably be able to find one closer you you.

PM Robi, on this site....he does graphics too. I think that Jake may do them too.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Headhunter
Iím considering having some large graphics done over a laminate main. So question for some of you sponsored guys Ė any pitfalls with large vinyl graphics I should watch out for? Company recommendations (Iím in Tampa/St Pete, FL)? Any insight is helpful.


Any vinyl/sign shop can make graphics for a mylar main. The dacron fabrics sometimes are tricky to apply but mylar receives vinyl graphics very well. In addition to my day job, I own a graphics/sublimation business and we do our own team sails for Team Seacats (we don't normally do big graphics for other teams because our equipment and the resulting graphics are on the small side resulting in longer installation by having to panel large graphics).

So...go to anybody - Fast Signs, etc. I know Robi from this forum isn't too far away from you and he's done a lot of boat work.

Keep in mind that the more information and the better the file you hand to them will result in lower cost and a better result. Also keep in mind that if you pay the extra for a high quality (5+ year (9 year recommended) rating) and it will remove more cleanly from the sail should you need to remove it in the future. Cheaper vinyls will hold up well but will leave a lot of residue when you remove them that will be nearly impossible to clean off.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
The graphics that I have had done for my sails have been done at Fastsigns in Tampa. They have done great work! It's a chain, so you'll probably be able to find one closer you you.

PM Robi, on this site....he does graphics too. I think that Jake may do them too.


I believe most of the Hobie commemorative sails are actually sewn that way.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:17 PM

Chris Green/Flumpmaster did his F18 sails using the same techniques as the Euro teams, maybe he can share some of his experiences.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Chris Green/Flumpmaster did his F18 sails using the same techniques as the Euro teams, maybe he can share some of his experiences.


That was paint with special flex additives and quite an undertaking! I'm not sure Chris' held up that well but it looked great.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 08:48 PM

Talk to Mike Krantz he just put a couple ZHIK logos on his F-20.
Posted By: BoK

Re: Sail graphics - 09/16/10 09:58 PM

Here's the link to the pictures of Mike's Boat Some Stickers

Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by BoK
Here's the link to the pictures of Mike's Boat Some Stickers



I did the decals for the sail. The hulls were done by a fella that does car and boat wraps.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 02:41 AM

I helped Chris do the Texas flag mainsail with the automotive paint. It had a flexible bumper additive. It has held up well and the new owner has that sail. When he sold it, it was still in great shape. I don't think longevity is an issue.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 03:19 AM

Jake- Is there a specific brand of vinyl that a person should ask for?

I ordered both mains for my new boat with no logos or sail numbers and will have to have them cut is why I ask.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Jake- Is there a specific brand of vinyl that a person should ask for?

I ordered both mains for my new boat with no logos or sail numbers and will have to have them cut is why I ask.


There are several brands and they're kinda regional - my vendor changes brands about every three years (arggg...the colors shift slightly). But, to answer that question, there's really very little difference between one vinyl to the other - all manufacturers offer three or more varying degrees of quality. Low quality vinyls are usually thicker with "goey'er" adhesive. High quality vinyls are very thin with very thin high-tack adhesive layers (that happen to remove more cleanly). The different levels vinyls have some different types of manufacturing processes - but they're all pretty much the same process from manufacturer to manufacturer. They rate the vinyl in expected longevity with outdoor exposure from 3 year to 9 year. Only in the last couple of years has 3M come out with a 9 year vinyl.

When I'm doing sails, I usually use one of the following (depending on color availability which varies for me locally);

Oracal 951 series
3M 7725 series (8 year...but they have a 9 year that works great too)
FDC is a good vinyl (think they're affiliated with 3M).


All of these high end product lines are commonly referred to as "premium"...so if you went into a sign shop and asked for premium vinyl, they'll know what you mean.


All of this assumes that your graphic is only a few colors. If you're getting into something that is full color printed, it's a little different ball game.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 01:55 PM

I no longer do graphics.
Posted By: Headhunter

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 02:49 PM

Awesome info guys, much appreciated!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 03:13 PM

I've only found one 3M product that I was disappointed in and that was a foam polishing pad for a buffer. Being they're a MN based company, (3M stands for Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing), I try to use their products whenever possible.

So that's good to know!
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I've only found one 3M product that I was disappointed in and that was a foam polishing pad for a buffer. Being they're a MN based company, (3M stands for Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing), I try to use their products whenever possible.

So that's good to know!


When you get to the point of applying them to the sail, ask here - I have some hints and tricks for you.

I expect to upgrade to some wide format (larger than 48") printing and cutting equipment in the spring/early summer of next year so we'll have full size graphic capability to do boat wraps and large sail graphics. That's part of the motivation behind the new garage and workspace I've been working on.
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 06:55 PM

Jake is the man with Graphics, no need to shop anywhere else. He's done Tybee boats for 6 years, all the local boats, and many other things including trophies.
Support a fellow catsailor!
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Chris Green/Flumpmaster did his F18 sails using the same techniques as the Euro teams, maybe he can share some of his experiences.

I painted a Hobie STX main in 2009 in advance of the Tybee 500 with a Texas Flag design. I used Martin Senour Auto paint with a Urethane flex additive used on Car Bumpers. The paint has held up very well on the sail cloth - no flaking off at all - despite over 1000 miles of hard sailing between the Tybee, GT300 and other races.

I applied the paint using Preval spray cans - because I did not have an HVLP rig at that time. I used approx 15 preval power units and 4-5 glass bowls. I wore a tyvek suit, Nitrile gloves taped up and an air fed mask because of the toxicity of 2 pack paint while it is curing. I started out with a brand new sail fresh out the wrapper.

I prepped, masked, sprayed, each section of the design at a time - 3 per side, 6 total. The star was a vinyl graphic - in 2 pieces because of it's size vs. my friends vinyl plotters max width.

Prep:

1. Large smooth floor area, well dusted room. I used a large canvas floor cloth over my garage floor to lay the sail on.

2. Wash sail with warm soapy water and a sponge to remove any dirt/dust. Dry off (I use a hair drier)

3. Key sail with a scotch brite pad - enough to remove the high gloss when looking at the reflection of a flash light. Don't scrub the stitching.

4. Wipe sail with Acetone to remove dust and any residue not removed by the soapy water.

5. Mask area of sail to spray. I used 3M Blue tape.

4. Spray adhesion promoter - this is almost like contact adhesive. It is part of the paint system and is used to promote adhesion to plastic components.

5. Mix paint, catalyst, thinner per manufacturer - and flex additive. I used twice as much as recommended - not sure if this was necessary but it worked fine on a test section of cloth I did during my R&D.

6. Spray a coat, No tack coat necessary (because of the adhesion promoter). Let the solvent flash and re-coat - about 10-15 mins.

7. Leave a day before removing masking and moving on to the next area. It took me 6 nights of work (actually 7 because I changed my mind on the size of the blue panel when I started the job).

We used the sail within 4 days of painting it. I did have the advantage of Texas heat to aid curing.

The result is stunning - the colors 'pop' a lot more than a vinyl graphic stuck to a sail. If I do one again I will experiment using my HVLP turbine sprayer - as the prevals don't have much capacity and quite a narrow fan.

Chris.

Attached picture Tybee 500 2009.jpg
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 07:43 PM

+1

Jake does a great job with the graphics. He has done a lot of boats for us and they all look awesome. Go greenroom graphics !
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 08:02 PM

Chris,

The sail did look incredible! You could have bought a decent HPLV gun by the time you bought all those preval sprayers!
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 08:14 PM

I just updated my spray equipment with this kit which I think is a really good deal. link http://www.tooltopia.com/sharpe-24a434.aspx You can spray all kinds of stuff and mix and match the guns and cups.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 08:19 PM

Another happy Green Room customer!
[Linked Image]
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Sail graphics - 09/17/10 10:40 PM

G'day Jake do you do the graphic design as well I'm trying to organise signs for my new sails to advertise my business. I want a caricature of a rams head with a happy look over a ewes head with a surprised look. I also want it on my spin any ideas there?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/19/10 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by JeffS
G'day Jake do you do the graphic design as well I'm trying to organise signs for my new sails to advertise my business. I want a caricature of a rams head with a happy look over a ewes head with a surprised look. I also want it on my spin any ideas there?


I do some graphic design and logos (just finished a book cover for the ASME) but they're mostly a hobby for me outside of my day job (sales engineer) when I have time. My wife does some as well (she designed John's Capricorn "Angry Waitress" logo. Currently we're pretty busy building a new garage and office space and getting ready to relocate the business. However, if you want to send me what you have I can take a look at it...I'm hoping you have a clean idea of the logos with most of it put together. I'll be glad to clean it up and get it vinyl ready if it's close. We haven't even had time to do anything with our website in the last year (www.greenroomgraphics.com).

As far as spinnakers go, that's a tricky thing to carry out well and I don't know what kind of paint holds up well on the spinnaker. I have seem some that are applied with a "sharpie" permanent ink marker where you can use an old projector to project the image on the spinnaker and color it in...takes a while though!
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
As far as spinnakers go, that's a tricky thing to carry out well and I don't know what kind of paint holds up well on the spinnaker. I have seem some that are applied with a "sharpie" permanent ink marker where you can use an old projector to project the image on the spinnaker and color it in...takes a while though!

I think Mike Krantz has this figured out. They ran a giant Zhik logo on their spinnaker in the '09 Tybee. When I asked how it was done he said they spray painted it - And when I looked closely there was some bleed. I'm interested in experimenting with this, but need a spin that is not preimpregnated with silicon, and has not had the seal and glide treatment (or sail kote).
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 10:43 AM

Thanks guys I'm getting my new spin from Greg Goodall and he says after the spin is made you do what ever graphics you want then apply the silicon, after the silicons on it's too late.
As for having an idea, I think I'm really good at my job because I don't have to be creative I know your flat out, I thought my 50ft x 25ft project was a garage mahal until I saw yours then I realised I'm just building a shed. If you havn't got time to design I've got someone happy to do the designing could you cut a F18 size sail design? If you can perhaps you could PM me with a price to cut and ship it to me. I'm all for keeping it in the cat family.
Flumpmaster I wondered about getting one of those artists with the small paint spray pen to do a free style but I can see how your idea would work, I'm gonna do some research.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 01:45 PM

Jeff,

At 50 feet, I'm not sure my garage compares!

The sail graphics and such would probably be prohibitively expensive to ship from the US. Especially if it is large logos (which I am challenged with dimensionally with my current equipment). They do not roll very tightly making it a very large box. You will be much better off locating a local source for the vinyl production.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 01:48 PM

I thought you could do screen printing or some similar process on spinnakers?

Considering the short life of a chute, I'm not sure I'd bother unless somebody else was footing the bill.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:04 PM

The spin definitely needs printed graphics.

My spins were printed during production at Performance Sails - Netherlands.

The vinyls for the main and jib were printed by Jake

The hull graphics were supplied locally by a company that specializes in hull and vehicle wraps.

The overall design concept was done by our internal design department at Zhik.

FWIW, the pics taken of our boat were before all of the graphics have been applied. The jib now matches the main ZK pattern, and the inside of the hulls has a reverse graphic of the outside of the hulls...
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:10 PM

That's really cool Mike. Congrats on your new boat. Fun to see someone doing it up right.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:15 PM

Quote
The hull graphics were supplied locally by a company that specializes in hull and vehicle wraps


Mike,
I've looked closely at vehicle wraps/graphics and noticed there is a texture to them. Do yours have this texture? Do you think it will impede the boat speed?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
The hull graphics were supplied locally by a company that specializes in hull and vehicle wraps


Mike,
I've looked closely at vehicle wraps/graphics and noticed there is a texture to them. Do yours have this texture? Do you think it will impede the boat speed?


I don't remember Mike's having that texture...but what you're seeing on those is small hollow channels that are manufactured in the adhesive on the back of the vinyl. Those channels leave a small square pattern visible on the outside. The purpose behind those channels is to allow an avenue for air bubbles to escape which makes applying very large seamless panels to complex surfaces much easier. Otherwise you have to use tons of application gel. I'm sure you can specify either way.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
The spin definitely needs printed graphics.

My spins were printed during production at Performance Sails - Netherlands.

The vinyls for the main and jib were printed by Jake

The hull graphics were supplied locally by a company that specializes in hull and vehicle wraps.

The overall design concept was done by our internal design department at Zhik.

FWIW, the pics taken of our boat were before all of the graphics have been applied. The jib now matches the main ZK pattern, and the inside of the hulls has a reverse graphic of the outside of the hulls...



Does it make your eyes crossed when you look at it? :P
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 02:51 PM

The surface of my graphics is as smooth as any others I've run across. It has a slight matte finish initially, but it was explained that was from being rolled up and the texture from the backing material. After exposure to the sun, it has assumed a shiny/gloss finish

The surface was prepped with a type of primer to increase adhesion around the edges. The leading edges were also overlaid with a clear tape layer to resist peelback from water pressure or grounding.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz

The overall design concept was done by our internal design department at Zhik.


Is it true that the design was created to hypnotize and confuse the competition into sailing slow?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 04:57 PM

Dave and I wear special glasses that filter out the graphics and make us immune to it's effects. Special top secret Zhik stuff...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 05:14 PM

hahah... as i thought!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 05:21 PM

I think that those "special glasses" have something to do with rum.


...if Mike's involved :P
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Sail graphics - 09/20/10 05:42 PM

I think a lot of teams stopped printing their spinnakers because it becomes a bit
costly if you have to do it twice a year or more.
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: Sail graphics - 09/21/10 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think a lot of teams stopped printing their spinnakers because it becomes a bit
costly if you have to do it twice a year or more.

Tony,

Have you heard of a cheaper method? I'm interested in doing some experiments on spinnaker graphics - so any ideas (like the initial pointers you gave me for sail painting) would be useful.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Sail graphics - 09/21/10 03:39 AM

You want cheap. Buy a set of Sharpie's. No I'm not kidding. You can do some really cool stuff.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Sail graphics - 09/21/10 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by flumpmaster
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think a lot of teams stopped printing their spinnakers because it becomes a bit
costly if you have to do it twice a year or more.

Tony,

Have you heard of a cheaper method? I'm interested in doing some experiments on spinnaker graphics - so any ideas (like the initial pointers you gave me for sail painting) would be useful.

What I meant was that they stopped putting graphics on them altogether (cant get cheaper then that!) smile
They pick a cloth color which closely matches the theme of the hull and mainsail graphics and just go with that (spins are expensive enough as they are).

Have you put any graphics on your Wildcat yet?
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Sail graphics - 06/14/11 12:55 AM

I've finally got around to getting some sail graphics done in Australia on my new to me Nacra 5.8 dacron sail. Robbie Nixon based in Melbourne that owns Catsailor.net cut the sticky back design and Nick Woon in South Aus did the design by phone and e-mail.

Attached picture Advertising on sail.jpg
Posted By: erice

Re: Sail graphics - 06/14/11 07:16 AM

bog standard black, blue and red enamel paints hand painted over many hours on to glass, alloy and dacron 3 years ago

at 1.20" and 2.24"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j55lMDEBmP8
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Sail graphics - 06/14/11 01:33 PM

Palm tree is colored sail cloth with adhesive backing. Sun is vinyl numbers are sail cloth. I have problems with vinyl but never with sail cloth. But these sails are more than 6 months to a year old.

Attached picture P1010028_001[1].JPG
Posted By: Quarath

Re: Sail graphics - 06/20/11 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by erice
bog standard black, blue and red enamel paints hand painted over many hours on to glass, alloy and dacron 3 years ago

at 1.20" and 2.24"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j55lMDEBmP8


I had always wondered how you had done yours but I had thought it was vinyl cutout. Can you give more info on the paint used. Has the paint on the sail stayed flexible enough to not have problems. Dis you mix anything into it for flexibility?
Posted By: erice

Re: Sail graphics - 06/20/11 10:24 PM

cheap japanese paint bought from my local japanese home-center, brushes wash out turpentine, so i assume it is a bog standard enamel. it's soft enought that thick paint on the hulls can be gouged with a thumbnail

it's not "2-pack" hard, my is that understanding that hard setting 2-pack urethane car? paints need flex additives when sprayed on to plastics and frp rather than metals

but standard enamels are soft enough from the can

the sail dacron weave just sucked it up and it looks like it will be in there forever!

http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=72046

Attached picture ccsm.jpg
Posted By: Pete from Tn

Re: Sail graphics - 07/28/11 03:19 PM

Wow guys,
Those are some gorgeous looking cats. Mikes is especially nice with all the wicked graphics. I love the diamond pattern on the hulls. Just out of curiosity how much would it cost to coat a hull with a graphic like that? I have a good friend who is in the sign business who might be able to do it for me. We shall see.. Eric's is also awesome as is the one with the rams head and sheeps head. NIce work. Anyone else done interesting designs with their cats? Peace

Pete

Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 09:04 AM

Working sails - vinyl
Spinnaker - coloured material sewn in during build.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 09:06 AM

Working sails also vinyl
Spinnaker screen printed before silicone applied by us

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 09:11 AM

Also cut into the kite

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 12:13 PM

it was about $600 to do the hulls. I used a guy who makes his living applying custom graphics for race boats. He prepped the hulls with a primer, and then came back and taped the edges with a clear tape to ensure that the vinyl doesn't peel back on the leading edges.
Posted By: Pete from Tn

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 12:46 PM

I have a close friend who does vehicle wraps and large commercial signs with the wrap, he also does large building marquis as well as all sorts of other signs. He told me the price would be about what you quoted here so that is apparently a good price. I also have another friend who does vinyl signs who said he could do it. He is gonna send me some banner ideas for the hulls. I am hoping for some sort of stars and stripes theme for the hulls... Not sure about the mainsail tho and I am probably gonna either paint the jib a solid color or leave it white. I just want to add some nice color to the totally white boat with blue trampoline.. First things first tho, I want to repaint the hulls a gleaming white and I called west marine to ask them about it but they were not much help. What do you guys think is the best reasonably priced way to redo the hulls. I have pro-spray equipment here and have sprayed many things including motorcycles, furniture, cabinetry, even a car once. Just want to get it back to gleaming white and have something that the graphics will adhere to easily and last awhile. What is best for a cat that will eventually see the ocean a bit...peace

Pete

Posted By: pgp

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 01:54 PM

I suppose the technology is obsolete but a 35mm slide and a projector would make the process very simple.
Posted By: erice

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 09:12 PM

did think that if i had been able to borrow my friends LCD projector it would have been easier to simply project the image on the computer screen direct to the hull and sails and then go over the outline with a sharpie

would have saved a couple of hours i guess
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Sail graphics - 07/29/11 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by erice
did think that if i had been able to borrow my friends LCD projector it would have been easier to simply project the image on the computer screen direct to the hull and sails and then go over the outline with a sharpie

would have saved a couple of hours i guess

Plus, many LCD projectors allow you to adjust for keystoning.
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