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Multihulls and the Olympics

Posted By: John Williams

Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/22/10 05:39 PM

Hi Folks -

For those in the US who are still interested, I'd like to give a preview of one of the topics we're discussing at the US SAILING meeting next month in Phoenix. First, a brief summary:
  • The Council voted and passed a motion in March of 2007 that multihull sailing needed to be re-introduced to the Olympic Games, and that the Council's representatives should pursue that goal. This has been included as "old business" on all subsequent meeting agendas, and will remain so until resolution.
  • Volunteers on the Council have been working on this ever since, with emphasis on creating new relationships with US SAILING committees and councils that are stakeholders in the Games.
  • Like the tide, international support for various submissions from classes and MNAs to ISAF regarding equipment and events has ebbed and flowed.
  • The ISAF Olympic Commission published its report and recommendations for the Games in May. Many portions of the report support the inclusion of fast, exciting and athletic sailing like that found in multihull racing.
  • The submissions for the November ISAF Conference have been published. Of note, it has been proposed that action on Events and Equipment be moved up, such that a decision to include a multihull Event in the 2016 Games in Rio could come this year.
So what does it all mean, and where do we stand?

I know that many Catsailor readers feel passionately about this topic. Since 2007, interest in participating in US SAILING has (very understandably) waned among our community. The result has been an overall contraction among our population to concern ourselves with smaller, class-level issues, growth and management. The national issues have suffered somewhat during this period, and the burden was shouldered by a shrinking pool of volunteers. This is simply an observation - while I'm grateful for those that have continued to put time and effort into representing multihulls to US SAILING, I absolutely and completely empathize with anyone who either has no interest, time or ability to volunteer, or consciously chose to not volunteer in protest. If I had not been Chair of the Council when we lost the Olympic multihull, I'm pretty sure I would have quit, too. Regardless, the net result has been that our position is hopeful but precarious, and the outlook is good but vulnerable.

In the past, I have arranged for conference call access to US SAILING meetings. This is expensive ($100), and only a handful of representatives have participated. I did not reserve the conference call equipment or line for the meeting in Phoenix - even with a call arranged last year, we didn't have a quorum and couldn't conduct business for want of representatives. As word spreads about the multihull's prospects for Rio, I expect interest in what US SAILING is doing will again peak. I would encourage anyone who has an interest to peruse the submissions to ISAF, and contact your Area or Class Representative if you have something to say. You can also contact me directly, but I'd prefer that you work with your rep - they try hard to distill and represent class and regional positions to the Council.

The Council meetings are never closed - anyone who would like is encouraged to join us in Phoenix. I posted the meeting details in another thread.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/22/10 06:00 PM

See Multihulls 2016 on facebook http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/multihull2016
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/22/10 06:10 PM

John,
Thanks!

If you read the laserforum.org stuff about the sail issues, this would be a good time for the cats to bump a single person dinghy. Laser Performance is folding, and so may the class if action doesnt happen quick. The Finn is a great alternative for a single person dinghy, the ILCA knows it, but is not scrambling to protect its future.
So multihulls need to act, quick!
Posted By: Arsailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/23/10 01:12 AM

John-

Thanks for all you do for all of us! Would you mind posting a link to the details of the Council meeting? I have sat in on one before, many years ago when Gordon was Chair. I know I may end up with a "job" like I did last time but would like to come if possible.
Thanks!
Kirt
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/23/10 01:42 AM

Kirt, you'd be most welcome.

Here's the meeting website, and here's the draft MHC agenda.

And folks, please keep in mind that there are several people that work hard on this stuff - I'm just the one that posts here.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/30/10 04:58 PM

The Olympic shakeup by the world governing body.. looks set to continue
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 09/30/10 09:18 PM

I'm sure I've read somewhere before that the IOC doesn't like "mixed events". Is this another case of ISAF ignoring what they have been asked to achieve?
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/01/10 03:11 PM

One design Tornado for men, F18 for women.
(or F18 for men, F16 for women)

Done and done

Next iteration, replace the F18 with a carbon F20 like the new nacra

(only real issue is does the F18 fleet want this? right low, lots of boat builders, lots of club sailing all the way to pro, olympics might kill that)

The the dev path for juniors is easy, start in Opti, instead of going Laser Radial or 420, go:
F16 (maybe club sails, smaller sail plan, see Viper Club for example)
F16 full sails
F18
Olympics
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/01/10 03:45 PM

The International F18 Class has made a submission for the meeting in Athens; the Class supports a multihull event, but does not support the selection of any existing F18 design. The Council was unanimous on this wording, but it was contentious getting there - some wanted to make it crystal clear to the current builders that the Class feels strongly the selection of an F18 for the Games would be bad for the Class. Stronger wording was considered. Letters to the manufacturers were considered. In the end, a point of view that I agree with prevailed; the Class can't stop a builder from submitting their boat, and the relationship between the Class and the builders needs to remain positive and cooperative.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 02:21 PM

John,
The 'inside' persons representing the MH community at ISAF in Athens this go will need to be persuasive, firm, credible and convincing, and prepare Pederson appriopriate to the expectations of the IOC EC. Who are our inside champions? What is the plan? The IOC reaction to the Athens meeting and its conclusions/summary need to be prepared to react to a ten year equipment mandate from the IOC EC as the IOC EC may have reached the bitter end wrt equipment politics. An 'ISAF vision' is now required that is at once concise, powerful and exciting as there are other sports that desire a place at the Olympic table. Is there to be an ISAF white paper at some point? One logically thinks 'excitement, youth and future' includes Cats, 49ers, and largely accessible youth platforms such as the Laser. I want to see this in ISAF writing somewhere.

In the past, ISAF was not resolute in reacting to IOC EC suggestions and allowed the agenda to be manipulated. The IOC EC is now very aware of this behavior. Estoril was, for want of another word, a 'failure', and I actually feel that if ISAF repeats itself and ISAF does not deign to the terse language of the IOC 'suggestions', (and spin cats are not included the Olympics, in whatever form), Olympic sailing, collectively, will become a footnote of historical record.

Suggestion: The ISAF, including any MH champions, need to offer G. Pederson, and ultimately the IOC executive committee a very cohesive, fair and sustainable plan, absolutely free of the historical tactics of neer-do wells of the past. They also need to be transparent to all members of the sailing community. Finally, stating what the 'MH platform should not be' is far less powerful than advocating a precisely defined plan for what platform it 'should be'.

I really feel that the IOC EC is now at the edge of tanking sailing completely in 2016. The ISAF must present itself with an organized unified vision, required to sustain the sport. It's do or die this time, not only for the MH, but for Olympic sailing altogether, and there had better be a good vision moving forward.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 04:42 PM

Take any boat building company in the world and give them a ten year exclusive contract to provide boats for the Olympics.... You will have a forceful plan that will be good for the winning company and the official that picks them. Will that plan be good for the sport? or Class?

That is the argument the F18' s are debating. Their answer is NO.. but there is not much we can do about it.

This is a cart before the horse problem though.
I don't see how you solve the gender equity issue. I have to think that mixed multihull or pairs multihull is a loser! ... ISAF continues to think that they kill two birds with this stone and pacify the IOC while keeping the "traditions" of sailing.

Just count the number of unique women competing in Hobie 16, F18's and Tornado Worlds over the last cycle. ... not even those on serious campaigning... just competing. Narrow the filter to those sailors under 30.... Narrow the pool even more to those that scored in the top 20 at their worlds....
If you can come up with 18 sailors... I will be amazed. The IOC is just not going to be impressed with this outcome.. They hate mixed sports teams... They want young athletic looking olympians.



Posted By: JeffS

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 09:49 PM

We need to have a long term plan for sailing in general, when my kids took up sailing I bought them 2 x 420's and said if your good enough you can go to the Olympics, they had posters up etc. On Multihulls it's different, sailing bodies around the world have votes and lobby behind the scene's to get the event they percieve they will win a medal in. USA and NZ felt they didn't have medal potential that year so canned multis with a blindside to give them an edge on whatever got in. The USA has 3 votes plus an effective lobby which will see whatever the USA sailing body wants, in if they want it enough. I think multi's in or out comes down to USA's medal chances which is short term poor sportsmanship on behalf of the sailing bodies and a whole new system needs to be in place before kids have something to aim for. Give them certainty and watch the mixed crews appear
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
They want young athletic looking olympians.


Yeah, just look at the Star guys.......lol
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 11:03 PM

Right... yes... look at the Star class... ISAF loves em... IOC takes a look at 55 + year old "athletes" and asks... Is it a sport???

Not to worry.... we then throw up for public enjoyment... Women's Match Racing.... ... again... Old salty ladies wiggling the stick for god and country.... (quick... name a sailor and ask... do you care to watch them compete in match racing?)

ISAF shot themselves in their brainless head the last time.... IOC will simply put sailing out of it's misery... and so... without IOC funding... ISAF will go away.

ISAF has one last shot at getting this right....

So assuming the best... Why does catamaran racing need an Olympic focus?

Fact of the matter... the America's Cup and various Ocean Races will dominate the public debate for the next several years. The notion that we required Olympics to challenge the young sailors is not so compelling anymore.

How much do we really need an Olympic spotlight?
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 11:29 PM

We do need a olympic spotlight, the younger kids wanting to go to the olympics in a sailing boat cant pick a multihull, and thats a big loss to the development of multis. Look who is in charge of IOC, he sails a finn, he has decided not to compete for the AC, would seem he hates multihulls, there lies the problem, its a pity the WMC dosent go it alone, at the moment with the AC multihull interest they would romp it in, rather than allow the 10 olympic ISAF events to continue to paracite off them, and continue to take our money! There dosent appear to be any real choise of a multihull for the olympics, the T`s wont be allowed back in, F18`s dont want to destroy their class nor do the F16`s the A class is a 1 up, i really cant see any multi that can make the grave for the next olympics atm with what the ISAF are ruling, so perhaps its best to just let the olympic sailing die
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/04/10 11:47 PM

Here's something else I had not considered until this weekend. My young crew this past weekend (age 15) wants to sail at the colegiate level. He'll be a catamaran ace by then if he sticks with it, but guess what....no multihull racing at college. He'll have to "learn" to race Lasers and 420's sometime between now and then.

Now, I think college age kids are the perfect demographic for racing small, fast, catamarans. But why have the college sailing teams continued to use 1960's era designs, rather than keep up with technology? They are looking at the Olympic pipeline, which is choked up with 40+ year old technology.

Maybe rather than focus on getting a multihull back into the Olympics, we should be taking our "show" to the Orange Bowl regatta in Miami, when all the colleges are there for their big mid-winter regatta. I'll bet if we could get some of their top skippers out on fast spinnaker cats in a good breeze, they would think twice about getting back on a 420, Lark, or what ever other dinghy they are used to. Then, years from now, when these tech savy kids get to be adults and Yacht Club board members, their minds might be a bit more open to cats...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 12:16 AM

Quote
continue to take our money!


What Money?

We have the ISAF structure ONLY because it gets most of it's funding from the IOC.

What money do you pay ISAF other then your building fee for your ISAF class boat.

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 11:13 AM

http://www.sailing.org/contactisaf.php click this link and get it straight from the ducks bum, cant be any contreversy that way, u will be surprised!
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 02:49 PM

Excerpted from ISAF submission 097-10, IOC recommends interesting changes supporting that a mixed gender multihull event for 2016.:

2-person Mixed Multi-hull Event

• The Commission supports the inclusion of multi-hull as Olympic Equipment as a Mixed Event. Mixed would reflect much of current global participation, and would provide a single-step pathway from the open multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds to the Olympics. The Commission recommends Equipment trials to select an inexpensive, modern, one-design multihull suitable for elite Mixed sailing that can be expected to become globally available in one to two years. The following paragraphs provide additional commentary on the recommendation for Mixed.
• Gender-based Olympic sailing Events have been introduced gradually, starting 1988, as sailing’s Open Events were being almost exclusively competed for by men due to the men’s strength-to-weight advantage. 2012 will be the first Olympics at which sailing has no Open
Events.
• The gender-based Events introduced were Men and Women, not Mixed. However outside Olympic sailing, a lot of 2-person sailing is Mixed – especially 2-person dinghies and 2-person multi-hull. The Olympic Commission believes that Mixed offers sailing some significant advantages and should be included in the Olympic programme for selected two 2-person Events:

a. it allows sailing to include more types of equipment in its 10 Events;
b. it better reflects sailing as it is practised globally in many parts of the world;
c. it highlights and promotes a key media-appealing differentiator of the sport;
d. it ensures not only gender equality on number of Events, but also number of athletes.

• Including Mixed Multi-hull is seen as the most advantageous way to re-introduce multi-hull into the Olympic Sailing Competition. It provides a natural pathway from the Open Multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds, and can be expected to increase the proportion of that fleet that sails Mixed at that event. Examining the other options:

a. no multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that 2-person multi-hull racing should be included
in the Olympic Sailing Competition. It is an inexpensive and exciting branch of the sport that is accessible to most nations and a relatively wide range of sailor physiques, and tests a particular sailing skill;

b. men-only multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes it would be wrong, as sailing seeks to move towards gender equality, to introduce a new Event as
men-only, especially when the event is Open at the ISAF Youth Worlds;

c. men and women multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that there is not currently sufficient Women-only multi-hull racing taking place globally to merit one of sailing’s 10 Olympic Events. It might also fail to meet the IOC requirement (practised in 35 countries on 3 continents). The Commission believes that new Olympic
Events should reflect sailing that is already an established part of the sport.

• The Commission does not support the view that Mixed is “not a discipline” or “not elite”. Sailing already has a Mixed Event (the 2-Person event in the Paralympics), and the IOC has added mixed tennis for 2012. Multi-hull is currently sailed Mixed by many sailors in many elite competitions – for instance the 2010 Tornado Class World Championships was won by a Mixed crew, as was the 2009 ISAF Youth Worlds multi-hull event. Furthermore, if multi-hull is only Mixed in the Olympics, this Mixed competition will become the premier, elite multi-hull dinghy event, and will provide additional value and differentiation to multi-hull sailing.

• In its 10th December 2009 press release on mixed tennis, the IOC stated: “The inclusion of tennis mixed doubles event ... will bring an added value to the Olympic programme by
providing another opportunity for men and women to compete together on the same field of play.” Mixed sailing will offer similar added value to the IOC.

• The Commission acknowledges that Mixed sailing is not currently common in some countries’ 2-person dinghy sailing – but Olympic decisions influence grass-roots sailing, and the Commission believes that this would change if Mixed is adopted. The Commission has not identified any nations that are today strong in multi-hull sailing that do not have Mixed sailing.

Mixed is also popular in other sports. For instance Badminton supports Mixed Doubles at all age levels, with Eastern Asia dominant. Badminton’s 2010 World Junior Championships had
Mixed Doubles entrants from every continent, and the number of entrants for Mixed Doubles was significantly more than for Boy’s or Girl’s Doubles.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 03:16 PM

Stupid question, would this be a "mandatory mixed" or "can be mixed"? I really don't know for sure, but in mixed tennis (listed in the ISAF submission as an example) can the team be all guys even though the event is mixed? Wondering how they envision "mixed" in a sailing event, if it HAS to be mixed, their will be huge hunt for skilled female crews and skippers.... and a lot of established all male teams would have to break up... not saying this is good or bad, just wondering.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Stupid question, would this be a "mandatory mixed" or "can be mixed"? I really don't know for sure, but in mixed tennis (listed in the ISAF submission as an example) can the team be all guys even though the event is mixed? Wondering how they envision "mixed" in a sailing event, if it HAS to be mixed, their will be huge hunt for skilled female crews and skippers.... and a lot of established all male teams would have to break up... not saying this is good or bad, just wondering.


"Open" means just that; 2 F, 2 M or 1 F and 1 F

Mixed means 1 M and one F.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I'll bet if we could get some of their top skippers out on fast spinnaker cats in a good breeze, they would think twice about getting back on a 420, Lark, or what ever other dinghy they are used to.


It wouldn't even take a good breeze, Timbo. And you're right... but collegiate sailing programs lack a major piece of the puzzle - money. Switching (or adding) multihulls takes a good bit of $$$ I would suspect, because more than one college has to adopt this at the same time... or else you'd have no one to race against, right?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 05:38 PM

All those Ivy League schools up north, and the Navy Academy, have plenty of money, start with them and the others can buy cats instead of more (slow) dinghys as they replenish their fleets.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
He'll have to "learn" to race Lasers and 420's sometime between now and then.


When Caroline Brouwer switched to a Laser she said it was easy because there's a lot of time to think smile smile smile
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 07:47 PM

Wow!!! Based on what Rex posted above, the IOC actually GETS it! Everything in that post reflects discussions that have been ongoing on this forum (and elsewhere) forever.

What a breath of fresh air. Hopefully, USSA and ISAF have the brains to act appropriately before it's too late.

Mike
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/05/10 10:26 PM

This is all great but can some one suggest a type of multihull that will fit not only the ISAF agenda but will also meet the needs of the IOC...And please no hobie 16`s, the aim is to go forward and increase audience numbers to do this the cat has to be modern in looks and performance, also be aware that the good old US of A isnt the only country on the planet and the choise must be available to many other countries etc.
Posted By: windswept

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 12:24 AM

I do not know what boat they will pick, but it does seem that it will go back to being the only open class if it get reinstated. There is definately strong resistance from the F-18 fleet for it being chosen. Hobie wants the Tiger to be the boat of choice which would give it a market for the now somewhat obsolete platform. While there are many Tigers still racing in the F-18 class, the platform has been surpassed by many other newer platforms. Maybe that is the way to go or maybe the Tornado is the way. You all know my preference, but powers much greater than I will make this choice. If it is a choice between having the Tiger as the boat in the Olympics or no multihull in the games, then I am for the Tiger as hard as it is to state that.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 12:53 AM

Tom

I would think a F16 type boat or a hobie 16 with chute would be optimal choice for a mixed team. You want the fig leaf of flexibility to have woman on the front of the boat and a male driving.... if you go with an F18... it will be strictly female helms...
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 06:22 AM

The American NA loves stars! I doubt if there are many stars in the pacific or African nations..

Fact is NAs are dominated by old super blobs.. What do blobs sail?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 07:28 AM

The F16 is a great solution for a womens boat, but as a mixed class I see one very big issue: crew weight.

An Olympic level team could be competitive on a tornado at 140kg and as we have seen in all classes that get Olympic status, the optimum weight gets lower as teams work out how to sail the boats better.

The 49er, laser, laser radial and yngling all saw considerable weight drops once the classes became Olympic. The same will happen with a multihull.

So if Carolijn and Liz are competitive now at 119kg, what will be the optimum team weight for a mixed crew F16 Olympic class??
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 08:32 AM

Probably quite a lot higher as the F16 platforms carry weight very well ( Viper for example ) and I would suspect the male crew will be exactly that, ie doing all the work on the boat like launching chutes etc where male strength and speed will be needed + that extra weight out on the wire will give extra righting moment.

My guess around the 130- 140 kilos which is exactly the perceived average weight for humans 60 - 65 Female and 75 - 80 male. The F16 boats tick more than a few boxes.

Macca for far tooooo long you have been obsessed with boat weight and crew weight.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Probably quite a lot higher as the F16 platforms carry weight very well ( Viper for example ) and I would suspect the male crew will be exactly that, ie doing all the work on the boat like launching chutes etc where male strength and speed will be needed + that extra weight out on the wire will give extra righting moment.

My guess around the 130- 140 kilos which is exactly the perceived average weight for humans 60 - 65 Female and 75 - 80 male. The F16 boats tick more than a few boxes.

Macca for far tooooo long you have been obsessed with boat weight and crew weight.


Hey genius: Carolijn and Liz are competitive on a VIPER now at 119kg and if the boat goes Olympic you will only see that weight go LOWER, and for sure not 20kg higher!!

If a team on a 20ft Tornado was competitive at 140kg, its simply not going to happen that the same weight will be suitable on a 16ft boat.

Like I said: F16 is a great boat for a Womens class at the games, but as a mixed boat its simply not going to work. Thats not the boats fault, its just not the right boat for a mixed team at that level. (unless you want midgets sailing...)
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 11:45 AM

Macca, I think the F16 could at a pinch be a Female and or mixed at a pinch.. But its not a class the ISAF would want. They fell for mantra sold to them by monkey. SMODS are the only true path..

But I do recall Elvstom and his daughter were competitive on the pinhead T.


Better would be IOC makes a ruling all classes need to be able to be picked up and carried by the sailors.

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 12:01 PM

The F16 is more than capable of supporting mixed, anyhow all the teams would be mixed but yes they would all be midgets, or asians . no offence to the asians but they are a smaller race and would dominate those events. 16 ft is way way too small a cat and would be less spectator and exiting than the Tornado, it has no foiling capabilities, and the current number of manufacturers and the class development will halt! Just like it did in the T`s for decades, forget the F16.. The real problem here is multihulls and sailing need a real jolt and it must be done using a boat with those capabilities EG bigger and better than the tornado and at the moment the only cat that i can see that meets those requirments is the carbon nacra! And it should be a all male boat, sorry girls but F16`s would suit a all girl team better. At this stage i believe that the ISAF is ****ing up badly again by making cats mixed
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
They fell for mantra sold to them by monkey. SMODS are the only true path..

AHPC Viper, Hobie Wildcat, and Nacra Infusion have applications on the November ISAF annual meeting agenda for class recognition. Hobie Tiger and Nacra SL (16) are already recognized by them.

F16 is also on the agenda for class recognition. F18 & A-Cats are already recognized formula classes but I agree that a formula class is an unlikely candidate for the Olympics. The SMOD idea is to reduce equipment variables.

So if it was an F16 and the selection had to be made during the next year, the platform would be the Viper. However, that does not preclude another existing or new (there is a rumor) F16 manufacturer from seeking its own ISAF class approval at next year's annual meeting.
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 12:44 PM

No matter what cat is selected for the olympics the platform will dictate the competitive weight range.

Using one of the Formula rule is a bad idea as it will have the effect of increasing the cost by a huge factor as each team/manufacturer will spend a fortune developing olympic proto boats

Using a one design from a formula class is also a bad idea: this has the possible effect of having the selected model take over the whole class, I believe that what happened with the Tornado in the past.

So what do you want in an olympic platform? Two crew, three sails, modern design, fast and spectacular. One design, ideally with boats provided for the event. So, what platform could fit these requirements?

16':

The venerable H16 with a spi is a possibility. Everyone knows what a H16 is, you can find one everywhere in the world, they are cheap and the class is used to provided boats for events. Downside: the NA class don't like the spi, the weight range is light light light, and albeit spectacular sometimes the H16 is technically a slow dinosaur.

Viper: As I said I don't like the idea, as the Viper is a F16

Spitfire: Nice boat, still evolving, but the weight range is too low IMHO.

18':

As I said before, bad idea to select a F18, even an older design. There are not a lot of 18 footer that are not F18 these days...

20':

Tornado one design: Known quantity, spectacular boat. But it looks dated with its pointy bows and centerboards. The best bet really to stay olympic.

Go to something new and exciting (Macca will like me know) like the Nacra F20. This boat is spectacular, extremely quick, highly technical and one design. Probably the same cost envelope as a Tornado.

Posted By: Matt M

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:17 PM

It’s ISAF and our own hang ups that are the issue here. We are killing ourselves with this drivel.
The IOC does not place restrictions on what can compete etc. Do you think all the bob sleds, or rowing shells , or even shoes are 1 design.

We are in danger of losing all sailing from the Olympics because it has no viewership and is expensive to produce.

Any properly constructed box rule can limit to some extent the expense. Even in a completely open environment the boat is only a small portion of the cost of a campaign anyway if you want to be competitive.

Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course. (leaves me out but that is not all unfortunately)
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:35 PM

Matt, the Tornado was a very tight rule that effectively limited the development costs to gear and sails. The platform for all intents was one design and one manufacturer.

Yet the development costs to run a Tornado at a top level were in excess of 100k EURO a year, its totally insane but its also the reality.

We need a one design boat for the games, simple as that. With a box rule you will always have massive costs and to be honest: does the racing get better because one team was able to develop a better boat than the rest??
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Matt M
Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course.
Give them all Falcon t-Shirts and you have the flashy bit covered smile
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Matt M
It’s ISAF and our own hang ups that are the issue here. We are killing ourselves with this drivel.
The IOC does not place restrictions on what can compete etc. Do you think all the bob sleds, or rowing shells , or even shoes are 1 design.

We are in danger of losing all sailing from the Olympics because it has no viewership and is expensive to produce.

Any properly constructed box rule can limit to some extent the expense. Even in a completely open environment the boat is only a small portion of the cost of a campaign anyway if you want to be competitive.

Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course. (leaves me out but that is not all unfortunately)


And cost and competition is the real rub here. IOC wants an inexpensive, widely available platform that is exciting. Without taking a position, this language logically means the F18 or H16. The F16 seems logical too, but the world fleets are rather small, at least from what I can see around here. F16, like the H16 may also favor small crew/skipper combos.

For the F18, then, it sort of fits. The box manufacturing model of aluminum and fiberglass (mostly) was put together to minimize cost. The question is whether or not IAF18 governance is appropriately thoughtful and empowered to protect the box rule such that F18 could fares more like the laser and less like the Tornado class if it is ultimately selected. (i.e. what can IAF18 [or any selected box class]do to prevent a mfr 'arms race' to protect themselves.) This is what IAF18/F16 should be discussing with ISAF and consider internally, rather than reacting to what happened to the Tornado as a part of the history of the boat. Let's be proactive as well as practical when discussing these options.

There are a 2 plausible options for any F18 selection (again, I am not advocating anything here):
1)Go with Tiger as the one-design. I have seen some fast Tigers beat more modern boats. Ask Mischa Heemskirk about the Canadian Nationals.
2)Go with an Alter Cup style bid by the manufacturers.

IMHO the N20 at $35-40K, and with all that carbon tweaking and foils, etc. is an IOC non-starter, because the IOC hates equipment being exploited as a factor in the competition.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:48 PM

****-up of the equipment selection.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton
[
IMHO the N20 at $35-40K, and with all that carbon tweaking and foils, etc. is an IOC non-starter, because the IOC hates equipment being exploited as a factor in the competition.


The F20 Carbon is a one design, one manufacturer boat that pretty much limits changes to where you put shock cords... So the development costs are simply not an issue there. and the retail price is around 32k USD complete and ready to race Ex tax (and no Olympic teams pay tax in my experience)

Also, who the hell wants to see Tigers racing when you can have a cool boat like the F20???
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
Cost to be honest is a total a red herring.. What is the cost of a star? Soling? yngling? Even the Laser guys have racks of tubs..



To the IOC, it is just as much about the dream, vision and accessibility and future growth of the platform and participants to the public. In the past, difficulty with this concept has been a major sticking point.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:03 PM

<****-up of the equipment selection.


The development cost of a Laser campaign is not $1, sure you buy equipment, masts, sails, hulls. but you are not developing new stuff. Simply consuming it in the course of training and competing.

The Cost to run a Laser campaign is a lot lower than a Finn for example, simply because you do not have the option to throw money at special bending masts and new design sails.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by rexdenton
[
IMHO the N20 at $35-40K, and with all that carbon tweaking and foils, etc. is an IOC non-starter, because the IOC hates equipment being exploited as a factor in the competition.


The F20 Carbon is a one design, one manufacturer boat that pretty much limits changes to where you put shock cords... So the development costs are simply not an issue there. and the retail price is around 32k USD complete and ready to race Ex tax (and no Olympic teams pay tax in my experience)

Also, who the hell wants to see Tigers racing when you can have a cool boat like the F20???


Great boat, would love to have one, but as an Olympic MH, I fear that it is not broadly visible enough, nor cheap enough, in the discipline to be viable and sustain the IOC EC's 'Olympic Dream' thing they find so important as an overarching principle. BTW, I think the ISAF needs to work on understanding this concept, too.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:24 PM

Honestly there is no good answer for equipment. I personally would hate to see a formula class become the next Olympic class.

I wonder if the Women's teams would mess up the F16 class to bad if they chose a Viper for the Women's boat.

The Men's boat is tough. Man I'd hate to see one of the F18 designs picked. That would throw a wrench in the F18 class for sure.

I think the Carbon 20 is the future but it's probably got a lot more refinement to go through before it goes mainstream. Also Nacra would have to work really hard to get the boat in multiple countries and apply for ISAF status quickly.

I think any F18 design would be a poor choice and really mess up the F18 class. If an F18 is picked, that design would become the defacto standard F18 and all other F18's would slowly disappear.

I think we have to go with a womens and a mens boat. I don't think a mixed team boat is a good solution. Open is fine but probably would not find any women in the Olympics with an Open boat.

Is there a minimum crew wieght for the new Nacra F20? With the lifting boards I would think crew weight would become much more important because the boat would foil sooner with less weight.

Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:28 PM

Mike,

IOC is pretty clear on what it wants to see, and that is a Mixed gender boat. So men's and women's equipment is probably non-viable. Keeping this in mind is helpful to moving the discussion forward.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:29 PM

I think it should be run just like our Alter Cup. Put it out for bid by any of the big SMOD's, personally I would think any of the F18 platforms would work for a mixed crew. Rotate the boats throughout the regatta, maybe have each country have it's own custom flag colored spinnaker which stays with the team, but otherwise, the sails and hulls stay together and are rotated. When it's all over, you sell the boats.

I don't know the economics, as far as what that would cost a manufacurer to provide XX amount of new boats, but I would think once the announcement was made, of exactly which boat it will be, they would see lots of new boat sales to many prospective Olympic teams who would want to get on one and practice.

But when it comes to the regatta, they must use only the brand new boats and sails provided for the Olympic regatta, and then rotate them after every race, or after every day, or something like that, but that will take a lot of the development cost out of the picture and keep the focus on the sailors.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:43 PM

I agree, it is tough on a formula fleet if one design becomes the Olympic boat... makes you wonder if the Olympics is worth it...

That said, my half thought out idea for dealing with an F18 as an Olympic boat is similar to Timbo's with taking the Alter cup model.

Basically say "F18 is the Olympic class Multi". For three years leading up to the Olympics, don't pick any specific model. One year before the Olympics have a competition from the manufacturers, select one to be the Olympic Boat. The manufacturer then HAS to lock the design down at that point, and supply new boats at the Olympics for each team (and brand new identical sails / foils / etc, exactly what the laser class does).

Advantages, no picked boat for most of the cycle, lets all the manufacturers develop their boats / models, top teams with funding will buy what they want / can, lost of used good boats on the market. Yes, could drive cost up for olympic teams, but does not need to, as the F18 fleet is solid enough you don't HAVE to have the top boat to win.

For the qualifying year, everyone is on the same "olympic" boat, no need for an arms race in equipment, truly comes down to the sailors. Yes, the chosen boat (company) has an advantage, but for all the hundreds of sailors who aren't going to the olympics, all the olympic teams will be selling off their older boats and we can all just keep sailing whatever boat we like.

After the Olympics, go through the same cycle as before, allowing other manufacturers a chance to get the Olympic bid again.

I know, lots of problems, but if we have to have an Olympic Multi Hull that is mixed, the F18 makes the most sense as a design. So we have to come up with solutions to make sure that doesn't kill one of the best fleets (IMO) going at the moment. So some variation of a bidding process that both selects a specific boat for the olympics without killing off all the other designs at the same time needs to be found. I think my idea is a good starting point. How a company would bid, the exact "open" time versus "just one boat time" should coincide with Olympic qualifying times, etc etc.

Just my 3 cents
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Basically say "F18 is the Olympic class Multi". For three years leading up to the Olympics, don't pick any specific model. One year before the Olympics have a competition from the manufacturers, select one to be the Olympic Boat. The manufacturer then HAS to lock the design down at that point, and supply new boats at the Olympics for each team (and brand new identical sails / foils / etc, exactly what the laser class does).


Sounds good except they just told us they want to pick a boat for the next 10 years. No changing equipment. Your idea is counter to their requirement.

So once again some burecrats put requirements down that screw up what could be a good outcome. But then again look at the Laser class and how much they pay for a little shell and some sails. I don't want that for our cats.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 03:19 PM

What do they do with the 49'rs? Are they all SMOD? Maybe they could pick the Tiger, lock it in for 10 years, as is, no developments, and leave the F18 calss alone to continue on it's merry way.

I could see where some Olympic hopefuls might want both a Tiger, and a new Wildcat for F18 racing, or say an Infusion for F18 and a Tiger for Olym. practice, but really, if you know how to sail any F18, it's not much of a learning curve to go to/from the Tiger, right? The Tigers are still pretty quick and as long as everyone is on the same type boat, provided by a SMOD, it should take a lot of the "development cost" out of the equation.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 03:29 PM

replace the lasers with some one-design A-cat style. Then you could have mens and women's divisions and a lot more action...

Designed right, a singlehander uni should cost about the same as a laser, and with mens/womens divisions, the weight wouldn't be too much of an issue...

Too bad the lasers are pretty much stuck in the Olympics forever...
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 04:19 PM

go look at the laser forums, that boat is having major issues, Laser Performance, the company that makes them (was Vanguard, was Laser, etc etc) is rumoured to be on the brink....No one seems to be able to get sails, etc etc. Laser is not necessarily the exact model to follow.

I agree with Timbo, what does the 49er do? I was under the impression they are all exactly the same boats... more then one manufacturer.

I go back to my initial question... will being in the Olympics be good for multihulls... the F18 fleet seems to be doing something not many other boats can claim right now, be a growing fleet!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 05:02 PM

Quote
IOC is pretty clear on what it wants to see, and that is a Mixed gender boat. So men's and women's equipment is probably non-viable. Keeping this in mind is helpful to moving the discussion forward.


redexton

I disagree... I think the IOC wants men's only and women's only sports and is very clear that they are focused on the elite level of performance. They do not want compromises.

They also want photogenic and exciting action.

Mixed events are NOT the right way forward. They are a political compromise and mix a social/polticial policy into the elite performance game. (Name one top mixed doubles tennis team.... versus name a top men's or women's tennis player...
The country club sports, Golf, Tennis, Sailing Swimming can only work when they are Open or M/F... Setting a sport up as Mixed is a craven compromise on the Olympic ideal of excellence )

ISAF floated the mixed events in order to keep as much of the vested interests happy. (Male - female opportunity and the good old boy network)

Catamarans...get back in the games... Not as open.. but as mixed... 470's don't get totally screwed... they become mixed... (not open). ISAF makes the best case possible but they throw elite performance out the window and they make lousy compromises. They preserve slots for the major factions of sailing Finns and STars still have a remote shot at staying in the games.

I would not buy this ISAF compromise in the slow walk to being eliminated. ... our sailing championships are OPEN... (Can you imagine if the F18 worlds were forced to be mixed!)
We should stay with OPEN for the olympics... The only compromise would be to accept Men's.

The winning move is to demand a men's (or open) high performance multihull. The women should get a women's High performance class.... probably a skiff like the 29ner X

My guess is that the IOC will not be impressed with this plan and they flush sailing.

Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
IOC is pretty clear on what it wants to see, and that is a Mixed gender boat. So men's and women's equipment is probably non-viable. Keeping this in mind is helpful to moving the discussion forward.


redexton

I disagree... I think the IOC wants men's only and women's only sports and is very clear that they are focused on the elite level of performance. They do not want compromises.



I urge you to read for yourself,Event and Equipment Decisions for the 2016 Olympic Sailing Competition
Option to Make Provisional Decisions, Subject to Confirmation or Amendment in May 2011

"A submission from the Executive Committee based on the recommendation of the Olympic Commission"

ISAF 097-10

supporting that a mixed gender multihull event for 2016:

2-person Mixed Multi-hull Event
• The Commission supports the inclusion of multi-hull as Olympic Equipment as a Mixed Event.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 06:45 PM

<****-up of the equipment selection.


The development cost of a Laser campaign is not $1, sure you buy equipment, masts, sails, hulls. but you are not developing new stuff. Simply consuming it in the course of training and competing.

The Cost to run a Laser campaign is a lot lower than a Finn for example, simply because you do not have the option to throw money at special bending masts and new design sails.

Macca,

You need to spend more time around Laser sailors; When I was in the UK development squad the laser guys used a hull for a few big events and then got rid; Ditto masts (Esp top sections). I hear it is even worse now and Hull gets changed after each big event.

Stories of hours at laser dealers picking the best Hull; Mast section, tiller bits and sails.

Cost of the hardware is almost not an issue. It is the travelling that costs (as I am sure you know).
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 06:49 PM

Yes, I did read the report, I don't think you are interpreting this properly.

I agree that an ISAF commission reports to ISAF excutive committee that ISAF include a mixed multihull in the second stage of voting on events.

My point is that THIS IS NOT what the IOC has been on record as asking ISAF for. IOC wants:
10 events.
M/F balance
Gender specific events.. not open or mixed.
Exciting and ATHLETIC and visually exciting so that costs are covered.
Greater participation by the entire world of nations.

ISAF ignored or poo poo'd the IOC the last time. The list of requirements has not changed. Since the huge bulk of ISAF money comes from the IOC,...ISAF damn well better listen this time... or bye bye.

This proposal is not good for multihulls and probably won't appease the IOC.

I can't even tag some secret cabal at ISAF... The last time, the women's ISAF committee VOTED to give up their 5th event ... voted to give up the women's skiff.... just to make sure they got their match racing event.....plus lasers, boards and 470's.

The Olympic committee report is an honest effort to manage the ISAF chaos of the past ...

BUT.... the final result Mixed Catamaran is not good for the sport of Multihulls.... We don't have ANY events that are billed as MIXED... Hell... when the USA sent a Mixed team to the ISAF worlds on F18's... they sent HER HOME.... (classic Gary Bodie/ISAF screw up)

I agree with Maritime's fundamental question.
What is the compelling reason that Multihulls should take this offer to be in the Olympics?...

There is a reason that no established class wants to be run by ISAF.... They don't want to give up their world championships to ISAF... They don't want to have to politic in 7 dimensional chess with ISAF old goats.... the class BS is plenty thank you.

With the America's Cup now on catamarans... We should re-think this long term strategy of getting back into the Olympics and consider all of our options.

I think America's Cup buzz will be year long and much much more known then once every 4 years of Olympic Sailing.... I would rather tag into this structure then the ISAF Olympics.

What do you find appealing about a mixed multihull event? I just don't see it?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 06:52 PM

I spend too much time with Laser sailors, usually Laser Radial sailors... much better looking than the full rig sailors!

Having crappy quality in the laser is not related to development costs, its simply a build issue.

Imagine if they created a rule that allowed you build your own Laser hulls, mast sections and sails.... then you have real development costs!

Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Yes, I did read the report, I don't
What do you find appealing about a mixed multihull event? I just don't see it?


I don't have a position on this. I do have a desire for a MH event in the Olympics. With that, one hopes/presumes that ISAF Olympic Cmte has some competent interaction with the IOC EC as the basis for offering up this proposal. If that is true, getting a foot in the door with the cat is better than IOC canning the sailing events altogether, which I think is a very real possibility.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What is the compelling reason that Multihulls should take this offer to be in the Olympics?...

There is a reason that no established class wants to be run by ISAF.... They don't want to give up their world championships to ISAF...

I do not understand. F18 & A-Cats are established ISAF classes. What classes are you referring to?
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 07:38 PM

Here's my prediction;

The 'Olympic 18'

A simple 18' cat built with cost effective materials [Polyester/aluminium]

One design licensed to various builders around the world

Stupid amount of sail area - tricky to sail in a blow [Crash and burn]


Remember where you read it first folks!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 07:46 PM

Quote
A foot in the door


ah... I think this is where we differ.... I believe that there is no next step into the room.... no move to men's and women's multihull. We will be consigned to this backwater of a social sport... just like mixed doubles. even worse... our junior events would also have to go to a mixed doubles format.

I could accept Open Multihull and Open 470... (and just pick cat equipment that is biased to light teams).

Men's Cats and Women's 470's also works
to go along with
M and W Keelboats, Boards, Lasers and Skiffs
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 08:01 PM

Kris... ISAF international class is not the same as Olympic Class

ISAF approval means that your class rules, measurement rules and standards, Championship rules are approved and mandated by ISAF and can't be changed by a local organization. (Carbon Tornado masts had to meet some ISO 2000 standard coming out of the factory) Your class pays a builders fee for this seal of approval. You get to host a world championship since they own the trademark and you buy into the program with your boat button.

The latest proposal is for ISAF to take over the world championships of the Olympic classes and package them into enormous mega regattas that they (ISAF) can promote.

Obviously, a successful international class would not want to hand the keys over to ISAF. In particular, a catamran class will be the red headed step child in this unholy mix.... For example... in Miami... the Tornado's had to sail 14 miles out to their race course for the OCR regatta ... sometimes... they got a 9 mile away race course... Would things be better under the NEW ISAF..... yeah... right......

Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/07/10 08:36 PM

Seems to me, the causal observer. The prefect platform, at least for the men exists already. Tornado. It's developed which means we'll have a skill race not a equipment race or the BS involved with picking another boat. And isn't that what it's all about really.......or it should be.

I think you will all agree that when it was racing no one was complaining about it except for one or two SMOD manufacturers that wanted their boat in. IOC politics aside.

Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/08/10 12:29 AM

The new Olympic multihull will be the Moth with larger floats on the wings smile smile smile

I'm with Paul: if choosing one of the existing classes is complicated, a new one design multihull could be the answer.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/08/10 05:11 AM

49er is a multi-smod design. Monkey owns the master plug. He then has a few molds popped from the master.. One is shipped to a few "partner" companies. These then follow a script to make hulls.
All sails are cut in one factory. Then shipped to the partner companies and sold.. Masts are also made as a batch.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/08/10 06:45 AM

So like i was saying we really havent got a sutiable cat that will suffice for the next olympics the way that the ISAF is wanting, and they dam well know this, what i propose is that the multihull association dictate to the ISAF what they are prepared to allow them to have as a cat for the olympics, and the ISAF will have NO choise but to go with that or the IOC will remove more of their 10 events, or is the WMO going to do to the multihull sailers what the ISAF have done already! I really hope the WMC dont allow the ISAF to again nail multihullers by us compremising our existing fleets sailed and built up by sailers and families like yours and mine! As cat sailers we know what will happen to a good fleet such as the F18 F16 etc
and I cant believe that anyone will abandon weekend nationals, fleet racing, etc day in day out to sail a cat that was not designed and built such as the tornado was for the olympics, and sail an olympic class of cat that will be out matched by that same class developing further outside of the olympics, for instance the F16/18 class will continue to develop and grow but what about the F16/18 olympic class, truly like the tornado a new type of cat has to be designed and built specificaly for the olympics to be sucessful not try to adapt what we already have, and I would suggest that the nacra C20 fits this bill and there is no reason why even 2 makers can not build to same box rule such as hobie allowing for minor class developments or facelifts with agreeance, this will build other smaller class cats as stepping stones to the 20 footers, starting with cats like the windrush etc for younger sailers...
There I feel better now..
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/16/10 10:22 PM

I personally think the hobie 16 will be the next Olympic cat......
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by engineer
I personally think the hobie 16 will be the next Olympic cat......


Let me get my beer and popcorn. This is going to be good . . .
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 07:50 AM

Well....... The Laser got selected LOL
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 10:47 AM

What about the Nacra Inter 17Nacra
Sniggers at Engi wink


DESIGNER: Ross Guinea
BUILDERS: Brisbane Catamaran Centre
LENGTH: 5.3m (17’3”)
BEAM: 2.45m (8’)
DRAFT: n/a
DISPLACEMENT: 125kg (275lb)
SAIL AREA: 21sqm (226sqft)
SPINNAKER: 16sqm (172sqft) and 20sqm (215sqft) The Nacra 17 is by far the most advanced sports
catamaran in today's market. Its advanced hull
design and high aspect boards and rudders make it
a pleasure to sail. With a range of standard features
including: Self Tacking Jib, Mid Pole Snuffer System,
Square Top Mainsail and Kevlar/Carbon lay up. The
Nacra 17 has the ability to match the performance
of much larger cats. The Nacra 17 has been
designed for mid weight crews (120 - 155kg) and
with its pointing and tacking ability as well as ease of
spinnaker use, the Nacra 17 will be the spinnaker
catamaran of the future.

Mobile: +61 400 701 878 Fax: +61 (2) 9953 6697 Email: james@nacraxtreme.com Web: www.nacraxtreme.com
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 11:11 AM

Now I know you that haven't really looked closely at the specs of boats or the gained experience with each so far.

First your write :

Quote

The F16 is more than capable of supporting mixed, ... all the teams would be mixed but yes they would all be midgets, or asians . ... 16 ft is way way too small a cat and would be less spectator and exiting than the Tornado, it has no foiling capabilities, ... ... And it should be a all male boat, sorry girls but F16`s would suit a all girl team better.


And then make a complete 180 and write :

Quote

What about the Nacra Inter 17Nacra
...

The Nacra 17 is by far the most advanced sports
catamaran in today's market. Its advanced hull
design and high aspect boards and rudders make it
a pleasure to sail. ... The Nacra 17 has been
designed for mid weight crews (120 - 155kg) and
with its pointing and tacking ability as well as ease of
spinnaker use, the Nacra 17 will be the spinnaker
catamaran of the future.



So you really believe that 0.25 mtr or 10 inches hull length makes a world of difference (never mind the F16 rating is much lower/faster then the F17 even when sailed heavy)

Then the (overweight) 17 footer (measured to be 150 kg despite what the brochures claims) can easily carry 155 kg of crewweight but the 110 kg 16 footer is only suited to all (petite) girl teams and Asians. Seems to me that the difference in platform weight alone would already account for 40 kg heavier crews on the F16's in comparison. Last time I checked the F17 wasn't foiling either (and has much strickter rules on such things as well)

Then to top it off you implicetly claim that the 17 footer could be an all male boat where the (much lighter but with same sail area and faster) F16's could not provide an exiting platform for spectacular racing.

Have you ever sailed on (modern) F16 ?

I think it is high time you did; you will instantly understand that your opinions of it are incredibally far of the mark. And no the Taipan 4.9/F16 is no longer state of the art (and I have one myself)

Personally I favour the Volvo extreme 20 over the foiling Nacra20 and please leave all the carbon BS aside. The VE20, A-cats, F16's and what not have been running with carbon for many years now and therefore the New Nacra is not something special.

Wouter
Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 06:09 PM

It makes perfect sense. He works for NACRA.
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/17/10 09:06 PM

If the tornado can get booted, Finns AND Lasers get selected, the next thing to do is bring the H16 in.
It ticks all the boxes, can easily do mixed crews, nice and colourful on the water for camera appeal and like the Finn and Laser, has been around for aeons....
plus it'll get hobie backing, there are already 150000 of them been sold around the world.
I don't really agree with it, but it seems like what they want to do.
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/18/10 06:35 AM

boring...
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/18/10 08:36 AM

wouter, the Nacra Inter 17 is not the same boat as the Nacra F17, the F17 has simular shape hulls, but not carbon kevlar and a totally different platform. the specs that I put up are from the Nacra website, I didnt write them, they were copy and paste...and yes due to the lighter weight of women on average they will be faster on a F16 platform than 2 heavier guys of same experience, but thats just logic,but i cant see lightweight women handling a larger sail plan as well as men can, so making the larger sailplans will be more sutiable for men, the Inter 17 has a 20sq mtr spinaker the F16 has 17.5 sq mtr / the Inter main and jib totalls 21sq mts not including winged mast the F16 is 18.7 including mast, Im not saying that F16`s are girlie boats I am making facts, so according to the experts, designers etc the extra 10inches does make a difference along with the different hull shape, to clear my point i dont believe that a F16 footer mixed is the way to go at the next olympics, as i posted previously it is a development class, the Inter 17 isnt, it wouldnt interfere with any other classes, just like the tornado, the reason i higlighted the carbon kevlar was because of the huge weight reduction and extra stiffness of the I17 over the F17, are you suggesting that the F16 should be put up to the ISAF as the next mixed olympic catamaran? Do you feel that the F16 will be more spectacular to the general public than a tornado?
I gotta say I also prefer the x40 `s but thats not going to happen (sigh)
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/18/10 08:41 AM

No i dont work for nacra, but i give them shitloads of my hard earnt money
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/18/10 09:08 AM

****-up of the selection....
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 10:01 AM

Do you sail a T Stewart?
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 10:24 AM

How can a Tornado be much more expensive to campaign than a Hobie 16? Have you seen what they charge for a sail? How long a hull stays competative? Is it a modern look? Is it suitable for lighter weight nationalities? The T is perfect two lighter Asians have the leveredge to hold down the T what are they going to do on a Hobie 16. Wait a minute that means the Hobie 16 will definately get in with the USA's sportsmanlike 3 votes
Posted By: Brian P

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 11:16 AM

if the hobie 16 gets selected as the new olympiuc catamaran, im going to the next ISAF meeting and im going to climb the clocktower........... youve been warned you old pompous so and so's.....

DONT DO IT!!!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 03:30 PM

no dont sail a Tornado these days.. Too old slow and fat..
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 04:51 PM

here we go! Seatbelts on.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 06:07 PM

What happened to, "any multihull, as long as we have an event?"
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 06:13 PM

any multihull is great as long as its not "slow and fat".

daughter, "nobody likes me".
mother,"johnny next door likes you"
daughter,"nobody good likes me"
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 06:16 PM

Did we go to high school together??
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Brian P
if the hobie 16 gets selected as the new olympiuc catamaran, im going to the next ISAF meeting and im going to climb the clocktower...........


You gonna jump?
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 09:24 PM

Did you know.......
The Hobie 16 is sailed competetively in more countries around the world than any other catamaran....
I had my suspicions, but I only just found that out.
It just may get over the line after all!!!!!
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 10:26 PM

Hopefully the Hobie Class would decline the offer if the 16 was selected.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by Brian P
if the hobie 16 gets selected as the new olympiuc catamaran, im going to the next ISAF meeting and im going to climb the clocktower...........


You gonna jump?


To both comments: I pissed my pants a little bit. Thanks for that. That's just funny!
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/19/10 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
Hopefully the Hobie Class would decline the offer if the 16 was selected.


The IHCA has declined in the past.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by rhodysail
Hopefully the Hobie Class would decline the offer if the 16 was selected.


The IHCA has declined in the past.


as did the A Class (IACA)
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 02:42 AM

The sleek modern lines of a hobie remind me of a banana.Get in line Brian!
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 12:05 PM

I find it interesting that everyone (here) wants multihulls back in the olympics......as long as it's not their class.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 12:34 PM

The Olympics used to drive the elite levels of cat racing. It was the primary mechanism that generated sailing stars. When these sailors dropped down to F18's or A class or Hobie 16's, Everyone took notice and tried to raise their game.

Loosing the Olympics and not having a gran prix circuit is a problem for the elite level of our sport. Nevertheless, As you point out... We need Olympics.... but not on the boat that I sail is a common theme... The Olympic class will be run to satisfy the small number of olympic sailors and not the larger class.

The great news is that the AC magically moved our way. Hopefully the beach cat world can find a way to use this ultimate stage to strengthen and grow the sport at the elite level. The Olympics would then diminish in importance.

Till we figure it out... The Olympics is still important.... We hope they figure it out.
Posted By: orphan

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:15 PM

Why does the olympic multi have to be a current class? Many times before a boat has been designed just for the olympics. ISAF could come up with design parameters and let the builders submit prototypes and commitments. Let ISAF select the best boat. Lock that boat in for the next 3 olympics. This may not be the best solution for 2016 but may be the best for long term.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:16 PM

Dear Cat Fans,

There is now a serious risk that Sailing could be dropped from the Olympics
in the new era of competition between sports for limited slots. The ISAF
Annual Conference in Athens between 5th and 13th November is a good
opportunity to improve Sailing's chances by introducing more
high-performance events including multi-hulls once more for 2016.

This is on its agenda because the Executive proposes that the decision be
brought forward to this year and the Events Committee recommends that the
Olympic Regatta includes a Mixed Multihull Event - a solution that we first
suggested in our 2008 Report.

However it also has many 5x2 submissions for one Event each for Men and one
for Women in five distinct disciplines - One Person Dinghy, Two Person
Dinghy. Keelboat, Multihull and Windsurfer.

These maximise telegenic high-performance boats and therefore TV revenues,
which may prove to be the decisive factor. They are also the most logical and
comprehensible for non-sailors.

Here is our new Report on this crucial issue. See http://www.catamaran.co.uk for
background information on the last campaign and http://www.multihull2016.com for
progress of this one.

Please express your views politely to your national representative(s) at the
Conference.



He is Phil Jones and can be emailed at phil.jones@yachting.org.au


Nick Dewhirst
Chairman
United Kingdom Catamaran Racing Association

http://www.catamaran.co.uk

http://www.multihull2016.com



--------



The Multihull 2016 website was built and is hosted by Design & Post (http://www.designandpost.co.uk/)



Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:18 PM

Why does everyone see it as such a detriment to their class? I think it's clear that if they were to go with an F18 or an A-cat that it would be a SMOD from within that Formula rule that if it didn't evolve might become sort-of irrelevant, or at least semi-distant, to the class as hull shapes and foils evolve elsewhere.

With the Hobie 16 - I don't understand the hesitation...if the class was controlled within the existing (and very unchanging) ruleset as a SMOD - what's the drawback? More high-end competition?

Is it fear of an arms race? How many times have we heard threat of that issue that never came to fruition?

Is it a deep seated fear of fierce competition?

Is it a fear of more formality within the class?

What is it?
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:20 PM

I have submitted the inter 17 as a proposed mixed olympic class catamaran as it fits closest the niche required for a new olympic mixed cat without taking away from any other classes, would love your feed back on this Australian made carbon/kevlar cat
Nacra 17
DESIGNER: Ross Guinea
BUILDERS: Brisbane Catamaran Centre
LENGTH: 5.3m (17’3”)
BEAM: 2.45m (8’)
DRAFT: n/a
DISPLACEMENT: 125kg (275lb)
SAIL AREA: 21sqm (226sqft)
SPINNAKER: 16sqm (172sqft) and 20sqm (215sqft) The Nacra 17 is by far the most advanced sports
catamaran in today's market. Its advanced hull
design and high aspect boards and rudders make it
a pleasure to sail. With a range of standard features
including: Self Tacking Jib, Mid Pole Snuffer System,
Square Top Mainsail and Kevlar/Carbon lay up. The
Nacra 17 has the ability to match the performance
of much larger cats. The Nacra 17 has been
designed for mid weight crews (120 - 155kg) and
with its pointing and tacking ability as well as ease of
spinnaker use, the Nacra 17 will be the spinnaker
catamaran of the future.

Mobile: +61 400 701 878 Fax: +61 (2) 9953 6697 Email: james@nacraxtreme.com Web: www.nacraxtreme.com

Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:28 PM

How many of these kevlar I17s have been built?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Why does everyone see it as such a detriment to their class? I think it's clear that if they were to go with an F18 or an A-cat that it would be a SMOD from within that Formula rule that if it didn't evolve might become sort-of irrelevant, or at least semi-distant, to the class as hull shapes and foils evolve elsewhere.

With the Hobie 16 - I don't understand the hesitation...if the class was controlled within the existing (and very unchanging) ruleset as a SMOD - what's the drawback? More high-end competition?

Is it fear of an arms race? How many times have we heard threat of that issue that never came to fruition?

Is it a deep seated fear of fierce competition?

Is it a fear of more formality within the class?

What is it?


In the US it would be the intense fear of putting a spinnaker on the H16.

I'd like to see it on a formula boat, but not OD or SMOD. I'd like to see the development that comes out of it.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:34 PM

$$$$
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 01:40 PM

This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).

The T class has worked hard to eliminate this stuff and is now a strict OD (AFAIK), with OD sails now as well. I think they have possitioned themselves well to be the next Olympic boat again.

Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)

(I would suspect in places like NA where their never was a huge Tornado fleet even with Olympic status teams would have an F18 here to get into bigger regattas, but maybe not)
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Why does everyone see it as such a detriment to their class? I think it's clear that if they were to go with an F18 or an A-cat that it would be a SMOD from within that Formula rule that if it didn't evolve might become sort-of irrelevant, or at least semi-distant, to the class as hull shapes and foils evolve elsewhere.

With the Hobie 16 - I don't understand the hesitation...if the class was controlled within the existing (and very unchanging) ruleset as a SMOD - what's the drawback? More high-end competition?

Is it fear of an arms race? How many times have we heard threat of that issue that never came to fruition?

Is it a deep seated fear of fierce competition?

Is it a fear of more formality within the class?

What is it?


It's the culture.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 02:29 PM

I'd do an Olympic "fantasy camp".
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).

The T class has worked hard to eliminate this stuff and is now a strict OD (AFAIK), with OD sails now as well. I think they have possitioned themselves well to be the next Olympic boat again.

Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)

(I would suspect in places like NA where their never was a huge Tornado fleet even with Olympic status teams would have an F18 here to get into bigger regattas, but maybe not)


Sorry; do you mean Optimists for up to 15 year olds? I was breaking Toppers and lasers at that age and helming a Dart 18. Most kids in the UK leave the oppie fleet way before 15.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 04:36 PM

as I stated example ages, class rules are that you age out of the opti at 15. yes, some kids size out before that (from your comments, you are an example).

My experience coaching Optis State side is a lot of the top opti kids stay with the class until 14 or 15 (basically if they qualify for the Nat team or not), even if they could handle a laser 4.7, as the quality of the events / fleet warrants staying in the Opti. I would also argue that a kid who doesn't size out of an Opti implies a smaller person, and would not be an ideal candidate for Olympic Laser or Finn, but perhaps ideal for skipping a Multihull. Right now in the States and Canada (the only places I have experience with) those 'smaller' kids tend to have a hard time finding a home in sailing, usually going the route of skipping a 420 or a 29er (if they are lucky) and end up getting bored with sailing and leaving (hence, why I proposed the development track above, get them hooked with Multis). This is just my 2 cents, and I doubt it is even worth that much wink

This is neither here nor there though, and is a bit tangent to the discussion in this thread, so I'll leave at that smile
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 04:45 PM

Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)
Opti until 15? My 15yo is 1.80m and hasn't been able to fit in an opti for years! He's been sailing cats for the last two years, rotomolded relatively slow ones (but with spi). The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:11 PM

Just think, if the boat chosen is a single manufacturer, one-design, the manufacturer will have to make sure that their boat is really 'one-design'.

That means every main, jib, spinnaker, rig, laminate schedule etc, etc down to the last ring ding will have to be exactly the same. Could be good for quality. As it sits right now, there's a lot of variation...everywhere.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:17 PM

see above... example ages, just listed class rules

Originally Posted by pepin
Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Nice development track for juniors as well (one example):
Opti (under 15)-> F16 (15 - 18/19) -> F18 (18+)-> Tornado
(example ages and boats)
Opti until 15? My 15yo is 1.80m and hasn't been able to fit in an opti for years! He's been sailing cats for the last two years, rotomolded relatively slow ones (but with spi). The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:19 PM

Quote
it's the culture!


Exactly. Only one team wins your country's slot.... it's a zero sum game. Bad things happening to a countryman are good for you. Training with a US Team is bad for your chances... Consequently you train with an international team who faces similar circumstances. The culture is corrosively competitive and more like a pro sport... (without the big pay checks)

I bet if you asked every US Cat Class they uniformly will tell you... Oh... the class is very friendly.... People are very willing to share information and help you out.. So, If that's the case... Why is high ligting "sharing" and "Friendly" even an issue?.... answer... they are in stark contrast to Olympic Classes.

2) The Olympics dominates your schedule. Grade I regattas are locked in a regatta circuit. The only window for the US to host a grade I event is January in the Keys... or perhaps Dec. Boats have to be shipped to the next big event.

3) Last point... when you have your signature regatta... you expect your US Olympic sailors to participate.... But they are racing in the EU... and sorry... they are not going to make it.. Since people are closer to sheep then they admit and ... they want to follow the fleet leaders... Regattas crater when they fail to get critical mass of the top sailors.

All in all...It's better for a sailor to choose to opt into an Olympic flavor of your kind of sailing. Let the popular classes develop their own culture and traditions minus the attitudes needed to survive Olympics.

I have no idea why people are so content with the proposal of a mixed Catamaran (versus Open or M/F).

Quick Test... who won the US Open Mixed Doubles Tennis Tournament?


Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:20 PM

Good luck "screwing the opti", biggest junior fleet in the world, one of the biggest OD in the world, all the top worlds sailors started in them. They may not be the sexiest things out there (or at all), but I wouldn't try to replace the Opti, I would simply work with it.

besides, its hard to argue that kids who learn how to drive an in an opti don't know how to drive anything else... I digress.... beauty of sailing, you can find a boat / role for almost all personality and fitness / physical types, the key is finding it early enough that you don't leave the sport.

Now, back to Multihulls in the Olympics....

Originally Posted by hobie18rich
Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 05:53 PM

Do we REALLY think that 10 or so (US based) teams that would put forth a serious Olympic campaign will have a negative affect on one of these classes? Really? I don't think that is sound thinking.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by pepin
The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK, all his regattas so far have been on RS Feva, a two man hiking asymmetric mono because there are no kids regatta on cats in the UK...


Blimey! where have you been?

There are quite a lot of people doing quite a lot for junior and youth cat sailing in the UK. It might mean a departure from what you want to be doing, but its worth the effort

Attached picture Various 2009 054 (Small).jpg
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
as I stated example ages, class rules are that you age out of the opti at 15. yes, some kids size out before that (from your comments, you are an example).


Naa; I'm a microlight; I was about 60 kg until I was about 18! went up to about 65 / 68 while sailing the Hurri and T ; now about 75-80 (lard is good for ski racing!!!!).
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/20/10 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Originally Posted by pepin
The problem is the lack of cat regatta for kids in the UK
Blimey! where have you been?
Sorry, didn't want to offend anyone, I know about the cat youth squad, they train at Datchet quite often. I'm saying that the inter-club youth regattas are not on multi: You have toppers, vibes and lasers and not one cat anywhere. See the youth open last week at queen mary. Cats were not invited (but them, queen mary people are racists, they do not allow catamarans with spi...)
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by hobie18rich
Screw the opti if you want to develope cat sailors Bravo,wave, 450 , dragoon ect.


As Russell Coutts says, "You don't have to be a good Opti sailor to be a good sailor."
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I find it interesting that everyone (here) wants multihulls back in the olympics......as long as it's not their class.


Not true (I sail a Tornado) grin
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor
This was one of the knocks against the Tornado in the last Olympic appearance of Multis, that they were NOT one design, specifically in the sail inventory. A lot of time and money was spent by teams developing sails. This led to some crazy out of the box thinking, but wasn't that good from a press perspective (lets not forget the US team's 'code zero' esq kite and how well that worked....).


Unfortunatly it was the change in the Tornado Class rules for those Games only that generated the development of the Code Zero. The Tornado Class does not race in 5 knots or less however some feared that in Beijing we would not have seen any racing due to the history of light wind there. Sadly, Beijing ended up being the windiest Olympics the Games have seen for a very long time and the Code Zero did not make the impact it was intended to do, however made quiet a negative impact in the press.

So, moral to the story.... Don't F#$k with the class rules for such an event.

Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 07:10 AM

If cats get back in, I have a gut feeling it will be the Carbon Narcra F20.

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 09:13 AM

Dave, the feedback I got today from my proposal to put forward the Inter17 from the people who are in touch with the ISAF...It is up to the individual manafacturers to put forward their boat EG Hobie Mastrom Nacra AHPC etc. have to go sit with the ISAF and put forward their preferred boat, the specific numbers in existence dosent matter, the manafacturer can build them, as any one competing in the future olympics will want a new boat ny how, so it will go to a larger boat builder that is capable of constructing enough fast enough, this would be Hobie Nacra and Mastron, i dont believe any one else has this ability or funds to do so, therefore it is becoming clearer what will be put forward >>>perhaps the new nacra F16 lol it will be up to these 3 manufacturers unless you guys can think of another, sorry bout the spelling im tired...
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 09:39 AM

Why on earth would you want the Inter 17 to get selected for the Olympics!?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 09:53 AM

Dudes... I have to be honest here:- I wouldn't consider putting the 17 up as an Olympic class. But if ISAF ask for it to be supplied then its fine with me!
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:12 AM

actually i would prefer something else, but it dosent suit mixed
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:17 AM

Ok macca i gotta ask your leading reply, Why wouldnt you put the 17 up? Now be honest, is it because everyone sailing a F18 will want one...
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:50 AM

It's just that there are much better options for a games boat.

It would be a terrible shame to select a boat for the next 20 years of Olympic competition if it's not at the forefront of current thinking. Otherwise we will end up with yet another star class situation with an irrelevant boat and discipline, no media attraction or desire from youngsters to one day sail that boat.
Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by macca
It's just that there are much better options for a games boat.

It would be a terrible shame to select a boat for the next 20 years of Olympic competition if it's not at the forefront of current thinking. Otherwise we will end up with yet another star class situation with an irrelevant boat and discipline, no media attraction or desire from youngsters to one day sail that boat.


Here's where I disagree with you. It's not the boat that's wins the medals, IT'S THE PEOPLE!!!!

Frankly I would love to see Coutts, Baird,etc race opti's against each other. Who here wouldn't want to see that. The truth is the Tornado was way ahead of it's time. Look at what it does with a modern sail plan. How many boats rate significantly faster in the 20 ft range?

Maybe what's needed is a new bow on the T so that some of the people that are watching can feel better about it.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 01:22 PM

Well here's the thing, is the Olympics supposed to be for the atheletes or for the spectators? And when it comes to Sailing...well...few -non sailor- spectators understand the rules, strategy or tactics, and being out on the water, of course it's expensive to add TV coverage. So, if the OC isn't going to spend the money to put on good TV coverage, who cares -what- boats they are racing?

Don't get me wrong, I care, and I cannot understand how the OC can allow a Laser AND a Fin, a 470 AND a 49'er, and an old design like a Star, yet NO MULTIHULL??!! WTF?? But if they aren't going to televise it anyway...what do I care which boats they are sailing, I (and 99% of you) am not going to ever race in the Olympics anyway.

It would be nice to see "State of the Art" boats in the Olympics, but I guess we will have to watch the C Class and America's Cup for that.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 01:24 PM

Ok, but if we want to see guys like Coutts and Baird racing shitty boats against each other we just have to watch the star, Finn, laser etc.

If the boat makes no difference then why not put everyone in lasers and let them go for it!

How the

Posted By: orphan

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 01:24 PM

They televise it. Just not in the US.
Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Well here's the thing, is the Olympics supposed to be for the atheletes or for the spectators? And when it comes to Sailing...well...few -non sailor- spectators understand the rules, strategy or tactics, and being out on the water, of course it's expensive to add TV coverage. So, if the OC isn't going to spend the money to put on good TV coverage, who cares -what- boats they are racing?


I think it's about medal count. I think I remember reading that our T teams were getting old and there wasn't any new blood moving up. Wasn't this one if not the reason the US voted against the multi?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well here's the thing, is the Olympics supposed to be for the atheletes or for the spectators? And when it comes to Sailing...well...few -non sailor- spectators understand the rules, strategy or tactics, and being out on the water, of course it's expensive to add TV coverage. So, if the OC isn't going to spend the money to put on good TV coverage, who cares -what- boats they are racing?


I think it's about medal count. I think I remember reading that our T teams were getting old and there wasn't any new blood moving up. Wasn't this one if not the reason the US voted against the multi?


It was one of the excuses but there really wasn't any merit to it.
Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by macca
OK, but if we want to see guys like Coutts and Baird racing shitty boats against each other we just have to watch the star, Finn, laser etc.

If the boat makes no difference then why not put everyone in lasers and let them go for it!

How the



I think it would be entertaining.

If Nacra built this boat to be accepted as the next Olympic cat then I think you should state that. Perhaps you have, but I think that may have an effect on some peoples decision to buy this boat good or bad.



And as a Rep. for Nacra you should temper your attitude towards other boats. Especially one that taught thousands to sail and probably exists in greater numbers than than all cats put together.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by macca
OK, but if we want to see guys like Coutts and Baird racing shitty boats against each other we just have to watch the star, Finn, laser etc.

If the boat makes no difference then why not put everyone in lasers and let them go for it!

How the



I think it would be entertaining.

If Nacra built this boat to be accepted as the next Olympic cat then I think you should state that. Perhaps you have, but I think that may have an effect on some peoples decision to buy this boat good or bad.



And as a Rep. for Nacra you should temper your attitude towards other boats. Especially one that taught thousands to sail and probably exists in greater numbers than than all cats put together.



I still don't understand why having an amateur campaign on a popular, also Olympic boat, is such a bad idea. If it's that bad, why are there so many damn lasers everywhere?
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 03:11 PM

"I still don't understand why having an amateur campaign on a popular, also Olympic boat, is such a bad idea."

+1

I like the potential of thousands of amateurs trying to work their way through the trials process to the "big dance". An expensive, highly specialized boat like the Tornado insures that only a very few will even try.

I'd be thrilled if the F16 was chosen.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
"I still don't understand why having an amateur campaign on a popular, also Olympic boat, is such a bad idea."

+1

I like the potential of thousands of amateurs trying to work their way through the trials process to the "big dance". An expensive, highly specialized boat like the Tornado insures that only a very few will even try.

I'd be thrilled if the F16 was chosen.


Well...that's not quite what I meant. If the Olympic multihull was a boat I was sailing, I wouldn't have any delusions or plans about qualifying for the Olympics but I wouldn't feel slighted in any way if I raced the likes of Johnny and Charlie on a weekend from time to time.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 03:29 PM

What's delusional about it? Lot's of people run marathons with no thought of qualifying for the Olympics.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 04:01 PM

Ok Macca the pressure is on, what are Nacra going to put forward to the ISAF? Any hints! How about the new 430 seems you dont like the I17 as an olympic cat...

PGP it cant be a F16 for the olympics, firstly the current fleet will have to change to mixed, and then you will have some chick telling you to slow down im real scared! can you please not let the other hull come out of the water, you know stuff like that, then if it is a f16 chosen the class will become dorment and no further development can occur so all the other F16 makers who havent been selected to produce for the olympics will quickly make a faster F16 and then this non olympic F16 raced at club levels will totally smoke an olympic F16, and you will hear comments like nah nah get a real cat as they pass you..then your shela crew will complain that its all your fault that you got pwned...
Macca has the answer he`s just not saying....
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 04:14 PM

"...firstly the current fleet will have to change to mixed, and then you will have some chick telling you to slow down im real scared! can you please not let the other hull come out of the water, you know stuff like that..."

Hopefully, that was meant to be satirical. Otherwise, you need to come to a Hobie 16 regatta (you've been sailing with the wrong girls)...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
What's delusional about it? Lot's of people run marathons with no thought of qualifying for the Olympics.


Delusional that I might consider myself in contention for the Olympic spot without quitting my job (or taking a partial sabbatical). Your post said something about how it would be great to see regular joes duking it out for the Olympic spot. I'm a decent sailor but without a significantly more time on the water and an honest dedicated training / coaching effort, I'm not going to be skilled enough to be competitive with that crowd.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 04:58 PM

+1, plus some serious $$$. The boat is the cheap part of that exercise.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 05:52 PM

Quote
Delusional that I might consider myself in contention for the Olympic spot without quitting my job (or taking a partial sabbatical). Your post said something about how it would be great to see regular joes duking it out for the Olympic spot. I'm a decent sailor but without a significantly more time on the water and an honest dedicated training / coaching effort, I'm not going to be skilled enough to be competitive with that crowd.


THAT CROWD .... see! you do understand why Class's don't want to be Olympic... you automatically split the class into THAT CROWD and the rank and file Joes ...

So... do you want to turn your class over to THAT CROWD to operate in THEIR best interest? ...(Their interest is in What is the angle i can use to gain a jump on my competitors) or do you want your class to reflect the interests of the rank and file... Which is more like... how can I have fun sailing competitively in this class.

THAT CROWD is in the business of finding EVERY ANGLE for an advantage.

Just take a look at equipment rules.. ISAF required the use of a 100,000 dollar machine to laser scan each yingling hull to match the class approved hull form....PRICEY!!! Why you ask?... ... cause people were pushing the rules to get an edge... So... that means the class has to measure that edge and say... Pass... or No Pass... BUT IT COSTS THE CLASS Time and Money to do this and they have no choice if they want a "fair" competition to remain Olympic .... The average Joe may not want to deal with this culture of push every edge!!!.

This is the culture problem that we point to.

Having said that.... you can always compete in an Olympic class and join the fray or not. This is your personal choice...

However, If your class get's nailed as Olympic or your Class leadership decides to put you into the chaos by choice against your vote... You were screwed!

The Tornado Class has adapted to the Olympic chaos.... It's constantly changed to accommodate Olympics and it's popularity has been crushed..... those that stay with the class and boat... know what the game's about. They WANT to be Olympic.


Mark
(Mixed Sailing.... a reality tv show in the making just pretending to be the pinnacle of athletic competition. ...
Open Sailing... a gender blind pinnacle of athletic competition.
M/F Sailing... a gender sorted pinnacle of athletic competition)

WHY DO WE GO ALONG WITH MIXED DOUBLES????
What do you do with XXY sailors.... hmmm inquiring minds want to know?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:07 PM

Dude, seriously. Because I said "that crowd" does not mean I don't want to sail with them or consider them any differently than I do Randy Smyth, Woody Cope, Ben Hall, Ian Lindall, Phil Kinder, Lars Guck, etc or feel like they would have a negative impact on the fleet. I look forward to sailing against high level competition and this is part of the reason I sail an a-cat. If I was that freaked out by someone that paid some outfit to refare their hull straight from the factory or re-rig the entire boat to their liking I would have quit racing in a fleet with Alex Shafer or David Lennard a long time ago. I sure as hell would be freaked out by campaigning an 11 year old A-cat.

If someone spent 30 hours a week training on the water for a year I wouldn't get bent out of shape that they spent $5,000 or $10,000 working on their hull if they beat me. You act like you are all bidding for a national title and this will affect your income and standard of living. I race because it is challenging and it does not become less so when the level of competition increases.

Hypothetically, if the Hobie 16 were to become an Olympic class, what kind of changes would you expect to see to the class? I would expect that the build quality and consistency would improve on new stuff and who would complain about that? (I'm not saying anything bad about Hobie - all manufacturers have areas they can improve quality and consistency). OK, so cost would increase...what else? So what would change in your class?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:16 PM

Oh, and by the way, the Yngling is built by many different builders making it very difficult to control legal hull shapes. That wouldn't be the case with a strict SMOD class.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by pgp
What's delusional about it? Lot's of people run marathons with no thought of qualifying for the Olympics.


Delusional that I might consider myself in contention for the Olympic spot without quitting my job (or taking a partial sabbatical). Your post said something about how it would be great to see regular joes duking it out for the Olympic spot. I'm a decent sailor but without a significantly more time on the water and an honest dedicated training / coaching effort, I'm not going to be skilled enough to be competitive with that crowd.


I think we're experiencing the short comings of inter net chats. Without seeing facial expressions and hearing inflexion much communication is lost.

IF there were a series of qualifying events it might be fun to see how far one might progress. In my case it wouldn't be very far and I wouldn't spend much time or money.

For me it's just sailing, I don't place nearly the importance on it that some of you do.

Currently, it's a moot point. There is no spot for us in the Olympics.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:25 PM

You are missing the point... YOU, personally, can certainly make those CHOICES... What ever floats your boat.

Take the F18 Class... the leadership reflecting, the rank and file perspective want NO PART of Olympic Class. They considered the issue and voiced their strong point of view.
They said.. NO... because their class members would have NO CHOICE but to play the Olympic game and bend to the Olympic Culture...eg "THAT CROWD". They strongly felt it would ruin their very strong class and it's culture.

Ditto the A class....

It's not about competition... it's about the culture (see above). Any F18 or A class sailor is more then welcome to jump into the Tornado Class (old Olympic). It won't change the Class culture of either the F18's/A Class... or the Tornado Class.

When Tornado Olympic Sailors jumped into the F18 Class for fun or profit .... They were expected to play like all of the other kids in the sand box... So... they raced Stock boats and kicked butt... The class grew quite well.

Now you see... pricey custom boards, etc etc... The F18 Culture is under some pressure. Time will tell if the culture takes a hit.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 06:32 PM

Whoa, Mark, be careful not to mix the issues. The F18s are a development class, and sooner or later, dudes with cash will appear and push the envelope (custom boards, etc.); Olympic guys or not has nothing to do with it, it's just a mindset and an open set of rules.

To answer Jake's question, the H16 class is already highly tightly controlled (class rules changes take forever), so other than MAYBE making that even harder, I doubt much would change. Then again, H16 sailors see the strict SMOD and tight class rules as an appealing part of the class. YMMV...

EDIT: I spend some time around Lasers. From what I can tell, other than "those guys" buying new boats and/or sails more frequently, the class rules are super-tight, and there are no boat development escalation wars. Rank and file sailors seem to be pretty happy with this setup, and the opportunity to sail against "those guys." The H16 class and the Laser class are very, very simliar in terms of class rule culture.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 07:50 PM

Mike

I suspect that Laser had sold 100,000 boats before they became Olympic.... that class culture is established and 100 Laser Olympic hopefuls can do their own thing, shop boats and masts and not affect the class culture much. Hobie has sold more then that in H16's. Even if they force a spin on the 16 for Olympics... I doubt you could change the culture much in the US.... Probably just let the spin fleet go it's merry Olympic way.

But... 40 to 50 Olympic Tornado's... certainly dominated the much smaller Tornado Class (couple hundred class members) and the Olympic guys controlled the class.... (Olympics are the reason the class exists)

Re F18's... Sure, the very top of the class was busy mixing and matching parts from different builders from the very beginning ... But it has taken many a year for third party foil makers to convince some class members to upgrade. I assert the Class Culture did a pretty good job of delivering the message... Sail the damn boat that you bought and stop trying to get an equipment edge.... we are about racing skill... not high tech development, the boats are pretty equal. (See A class for more of that mindset)

Again... the whole point of the thread was to offer an explanation for WHY you don't want to be an Olympic Class.... (It's not about the competition or competitors)
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Again... the whole point of the thread was to offer an explanation for WHY you don't want to be an Olympic Class.... (It's not about the competition or competitors)


But we still haven't received one solid reason WHY other than "we don't want to be part of that culture" (someone said something like that). What are the specific drawbacks? I think we're assuming that a lot of things would change without really understanding the issues. I suggest that that boat class's quality will get better at some expense to cost and that the quality of the competition will increase.

People are really starting to spend money on custom F18 pieces parts but we've all sort-a agreed that those guys probably would have beaten us on any other boat anyway. It's what I call the "Nth degree" - buying all that stuff helps you less with your boat speed than your mindset so you quit worrying about who has the best stuff....but back to the point....

What damage would be done to a class to have it be an Olympic class? So the culture might shift but to what and by how much? We're not talking about 200 teams infiltrating your class ranks. We're talking about, at most, 10 to 15 Olympic hopefuls in any given country.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 08:35 PM

10 or 15 Teams?

Probably depends on if the slot is open in a country. When Randy Retired.. 3 Major teams worked for three cycles.. I think 5 or 6 teams really gave it a shot for Atlanta with a completely open field..... Olympic Hopefuls raced and trained in the EU.


Issues for the Class.
Culture. winning by exploiting an equipment edge in the rules is part of the game. Evidence,... Tornado masts build program. Proprietary Sail material program, a perpetual game of whack a mole until the class philosophy is forced to SMOD... just to cut the BS.

Culture. Only one slot available.... Means training programs must be multinational. Undercuts the ideal of building a strong racing class.

ISAF Grade I Circuit. Most of USA racing season is spent in the EU.

Of course for the individual
Costs. Training and competing on a circuit world wide is very expensive.

Sponsors: Limited number of sponsors in any one country means that one team locks out all of the others in the fund raising game.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 08:49 PM

Why don't we have more Grade I events in the USA? Is it just because the EU countries are smaller and closer to one another (reducing/easing travel)?

I see your point about the development vs. SMOD issue, though, and can see where that would upset the F18 guys.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
10 or 15 Teams?

Probably depends on if the slot is open in a country. When Randy Retired.. 3 Major teams worked for three cycles.. I think 5 or 6 teams really gave it a shot for Atlanta with a completely open field..... Olympic Hopefuls raced and trained in the EU.



I simply find it harder to believe that 5 teams are going to have such a negative impact to an existing class.

Quote

Issues for the Class.
Culture. winning by exploiting an equipment edge in the rules is part of the game. Evidence,... Tornado masts build program. Proprietary Sail material program, a perpetual game of whack a mole until the class philosophy is forced to SMOD... just to cut the BS.


Make it SMOD like the Laser - problem is then 98% solved even if the class falls within a subcategory of an existing formula class. The higher the quality and repeatability of the manufacturing, this factor becomes even less.

Quote

Culture. Only one slot available.... Means training programs must be multinational. Undercuts the ideal of building a strong racing class.


Again, if it's just 5 teams that are dealing with this - will it affect the class in any way?

Quote

ISAF Grade I Circuit. Most of USA racing season is spent in the EU.


I'm not familiary with this although I am a "P.R.O." type sailor (Parties Really Obnoxiously)

Quote

Of course for the individual
Costs. Training and competing on a circuit world wide is very expensive.

Sponsors: Limited number of sponsors in any one country means that one team locks out all of the others in the fund raising game.


That is a problem for the Olympic hopefuls and the countries that intend to win medals in the Olympics - not the class.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 09:33 PM

Grade I events.

Well they are held where the competitors are.

The northern hemisphere schedule breaks down so that the OCR must be held in Jan/Feb... so the boats can get to the US after the EU season... and then to the Southern hemisphere if needed... and then back to the EU for the season over there for the next cycle.

Worlds are scheduled with the grade I events in mind. The elite circuit is controlled by the Grade I events.


Hell... the proposal is for ISAF to actually take over the Olympic class's actual World Championship.... It just eliminates the amateur class leadership this way....

At the end of the day... I listened to an old guard Olympic sailor who would always advise.... trust me... you don't want your class to be Olympic. I joined the class... watched the BS... THEN I understood what she meant. It was a great experience... BUT... there are just issues.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:06 PM

Quote


Again, if it's just 5 teams that are dealing with this - will it affect the class in any way?


Yes it will

If you took the top 5 competitors out of the F18 NA's because their boats were not back to the US in time... Your event will suffer your class will suffer.

if the studs are not racing... then... eh.. well it can't be much of an event.....
Childish .. sure! but it's human nature.

If you are required to schedule your NA's in Nov or Dec in the US to avoid the Grade I circuit and accommodate the 5 guys. ... your class can not move around the country to grow and support fleets.

You are locked into just a few Southern venues to host your NA's.... (Miami, Houston or San Diego)
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:15 PM

people seem very confused about the difference between OLYMPIC EVENTS and OLYMPIc EQUIPEMENT

We have to put up a united front to get the EVENTS committee to notice and accept multihulls first.

Once we get past them, we can start worrying about submissions to the EQUIPEMENT committee
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/21/10 10:33 PM

Paul.

Events and equipment are always tied together.

The politics have convinced you guys that MIXED is the optimal solution. It sounds like it's a done deal..

I disagree and want the cat powers that be to hold on principle. One event is fine... Open it should be.... THEN you can sort through the equipment choices.

I think that Open or Two events M/F are far better for defining the pinnacle of the sport.
Moreover, we have an AC event on cats.... our standing has never been higher.... We should not play small here.... We should not compromise

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 02:15 AM

Pics please laugh
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 02:24 AM

Mike

I suspect that Laser had sold 100,000 boats before they became Olympic.... that class culture is established and 100 Laser Olympic hopefuls can do their own thing, shop boats and masts and not affect the class culture much. Hobie has sold more then that in H16's. Even if they force a spin on the 16 for Olympics... I doubt you could change the culture much in the US.... Probably just let the spin fleet go it's merry Olympic way.

Hmmmm a spin on the hobie 16 huh, spose you could attatch those hobie fins to the bow of it, so it wont pitch pole in anything over 5 knots...I can see full use of the rocker there, they did say make it spectacular, imagine the sideways slip lol cmon... its gotta be a Inter 17 mixed..as I hear no other takers here..
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Pics please laugh


When EXACTLY did this become SA? At least you're not asking to see their... nevermind.


One other thing, you guys claiming that there is a "gentleman's agreement" or class culture pushing F18 sailors to sail stock boats. Is that an NA thing, or is that truly global? Or would anyone here even know for sure?

Also, when did this start? I distinctly recall the "growing pains" of the early (US) Tiger sailors, as the boat went from pinhead to squaretop, got a self-tacker, etc. This was after the boat had been available and (presumably) developing in Europe for many years.

Seems to me that since F18 is a developmental class, this would be an unfair thing to assume people to accept. Simply put, the rules allow changes. Not allowing changes only accomplishes forcing people to trade boats every few years, and makes the older designs lose value more quickly.

Mike
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Ok Macca the pressure is on, what are Nacra going to put forward to the ISAF? Any hints! How about the new 430 seems you dont like the I17 as an olympic cat...

PGP it cant be a F16 for the olympics, firstly the current fleet will have to change to mixed, and then you will have some chick telling you to slow down im real scared! can you please not let the other hull come out of the water, you know stuff like that, then if it is a f16 chosen the class will become dorment and no further development can occur so all the other F16 makers who havent been selected to produce for the olympics will quickly make a faster F16 and then this non olympic F16 raced at club levels will totally smoke an olympic F16, and you will hear comments like nah nah get a real cat as they pass you..then your shela crew will complain that its all your fault that you got pwned...
Macca has the answer he`s just not saying....


I have not spoken to Macca about weather they will submit a boat for selection........ But I would be willing to bet it will be full steam ahead with their new 20.

As for the Tornado being an old boat, sail one and it will feel as adavced and sweet to sail as the majority of modern boats on the market. I have not sailed a Carbon N20 but would imagine it would be one of the few boats, if not the only that would potentialy make a T feel a little dated.

Now I am going to jump back on a T tomorrow and enjoy the 'Dated' ride in some good breeze.
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
One other thing, you guys claiming that there is a "gentleman's agreement" or class culture pushing F18 sailors to sail stock boats.
Ahahaha, good one. A lot of the F18 are not stock. Appendices are the most commonly changed bits, sail development is huge so new sails are coming up all the time, I've seen F18 with non stock beams, Infusion with wildcat rudders, top boats do change all their blocks to match exactly what they want...
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Devon
Mike

I suspect that Laser had sold 100,000 boats before they became Olympic.... that class culture is established and 100 Laser Olympic hopefuls can do their own thing, shop boats and masts and not affect the class culture much. Hobie has sold more then that in H16's. Even if they force a spin on the 16 for Olympics... I doubt you could change the culture much in the US.... Probably just let the spin fleet go it's merry Olympic way.

Hmmmm a spin on the hobie 16 huh, spose you could attatch those hobie fins to the bow of it, so it wont pitch pole in anything over 5 knots...I can see full use of the rocker there, they did say make it spectacular, imagine the sideways slip lol cmon... its gotta be a Inter 17 mixed..as I hear no other takers here..


A H16 with curved foils and spi would be interesting, even if not my preferred choice for the Olympics.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Devon
Mike



Hmmmm a spin on the hobie 16 huh, spose you could attatch those hobie fins to the bow of it, so it wont pitch pole in anything over 5 knots...I can see full use of the rocker there, they did say make it spectacular, imagine the sideways slip lol cmon... its gotta be a Inter 17 mixed..as I hear no other takers here..


I thought that the spinny on a Hobie 16 was a really bad idea - until my team started sailing one!

the pole is really long and the sail gives a huge amount of lift to the bows. this means that teams [especially the lighter ones] can sail the boat downwind in more breeze with the kite than WITHOUT!
Its a really well done piece of kit and makes the H16 very exciting downwind and it sails just like an F18! Try it and you will see.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 04:14 PM

I shot a video from a H16 training session a few years ago, it shows that it really sails quite nicely with the spi.(2:40).
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/22/10 04:48 PM

Tangent:

I wonder how many impressions Nissan got from sponsoring the Hobie Europe teams. Anyone seen the 'Tiger Pitchpole'?

too bad its so difficult to get companies in the US to pony up.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/23/10 08:07 AM

the mosquito cats also added a spinaker, and I guess it would give the h16 a run for its money, but from the u tubes available nose diving is more noticable than say a F16
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/23/10 01:14 PM

Im sorry.. isnt the Olympic motto "Citius, Altius, Fortius.".. These three Latin words mean "Swifter, Higher, Stronger." NOT "fatter, heavier, slower"..

If the F20C is faster lighter stronger than the T then choose that if not.. I however doubt if the F20C would see any less cost in the kitty to campaign than a T.. And the cost is a red herring put there by ISAF..
But watch ISAF screw up the selection..



Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 03:09 AM

More soon, but I'm pleased to convey that the Board approved an OSC recommendation to vote for a Mixed Multihull event in Athens in a few days. Great meeting in AZ this weekend. Big Multihull presence. Dave Ingram is the new MHC chair with Mike L. (brucat) as his Vice.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 04:05 AM

John, Sorry I cant share your pleasure, firstly sailing is a extremly male dominated sport and the number of female interest is very small compared, so obviously a mixed event will = EPIC FAIL, it will have to be done on a much smaller platform because a female member isnt going to be as strong as a male member, and simply this wont achieve any where near as much interest to the spectator as would 2 male crew on a 20 footer, this is yet again going against what the IOC have insisted we dont do! Make it more viable interesting to the general public, no ones girlfriend wife or mother gives a dam to watch a mixed couple racing on a pissy 16 foot cat, nor will most blokes, at least try to put forward a class that may work, and have a chancce to save olympic sailing, is amuses me John how you think a mixed multi will appease the ioc, much less increase viewers, i would love to hear what type of mixed cat would please you!!!!!!!!
Actually i think everyone here would like to know whay type of mixed cat you would suggest and give us a chance to analyize your suggestion before a mixed team is proposed foolishly, and if people here cant explain why your choise wont work then sure go for it!!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 09:03 AM

get the girls in bikinis and guys in speedos.. watch the spectators take notice!! Worked for beach volley ball

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 09:24 AM

I dont think that is what John has in mind, as racing is generally done away from spectators and with very poor TV coverage due to the disinterest in sailing in the olympics created by the poor choise of monohull events we currently have and still continue to have, and just making a mixed event in a small cat wont fix the problem, please explain to me and the others here, along with the rest of the world, how we are wrong and you and the ISAF is right! This time you and the ISAF WONT get a second chance the IOC will wipe sailing once and for all! From their words YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 10:03 AM

devon ISAF wont get it right.. Based on past history there have only been two times that ISAF has chosen well.. The T and the 49er..

Saying this there have been women sailing the T at the pointy end of the Olympic fleets...


Posted By: Baltic

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Actually i think everyone here would like to know whay type of mixed cat you would suggest and give us a chance to analyize your suggestion before a mixed team is proposed foolishly, and if people here cant explain why your choise wont work then sure go for it!!


I'm not voting for the Tornado - but the current world champions are: a mixed team (Roland & Nahid Gäbler)! So it has not to be a "pissy 16 foot cat".
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 11:39 AM

Carolijn was 2nd at the T worlds and went to the Games on a Tornado, so I guess she will be pushing for the same sized boat for a mixed class..
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 11:59 AM

MIXED proposal = FAIL

Not because the girls can't do it, they can.

Because you are excluding MUSLIMS from a 'New' Olympic sport. IOC won't wear it. Badly thought out proposal.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
MIXED proposal = FAIL

Not because the girls can't do it, they can.

Because you are excluding MUSLIMS from a 'New' Olympic sport. IOC won't wear it. Badly thought out proposal.


Last time I checked, there were no Islamic catamaran teams at the 2008 Olympics:

1 ESP Fernando Echavarri, Anton Paz Blanco
2 GRE Iordanis Paschalidis, Konstantinos Trigonis
3 NED Mitch Booth, Pim Nieuwenhuis
4 UKR Pavel Kalinchev, Andriy Shafranyuk
5 AUS Darren Bundock, Glenn Ashby
6 GBR Leigh McMillan, Will Howden
7 FRA Xavier Revil, Christophe Espagnon
8 CAN Oskar Johansson, Kevin Stittle
9 CHN Youjia Luo, Xiuke Chen
10 GER Johannes Polgar, Florian Spalteholz
11 BEL Carolijn Brouwer, Sebastien Godefroid
12 AUT Roman Hagara, Hans Peter Steinacher
13 ARG Santiago Lange, Carlos Espínola
14 USA John Lovell, Charles Ogletree
15 ITA Francesco Marcolini, Edoardo Bianchi

That argument is a red herring.
Posted By: NacraKid

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
devon ISAF wont get it right.. Based on past history there have only been two times that ISAF has chosen well.. The T and the 49er..

Saying this there have been women sailing the T at the pointy end of the Olympic fleets...



Actually they've done three things right, women's match racing, the most spectator friendly bit of olympic sailing there is. Short sharp racing, close action, only two boats to have to film, lots of manoeuvers..
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 04:53 PM

So Olympic participation is a closed club is it? no more new sailors. Nice one!

I think that you need to have a think about what wavelength the IOC might be on.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/24/10 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
Im sorry.. isnt the Olympic motto "Citius, Altius, Fortius.".. These three Latin words mean "Swifter, Higher, Stronger."


That's three pretty awesome boat names right there....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 01:27 AM

Why is match racing a good solution for Olympics?

This is such a narrow niche of the sport. I agree it's easy to follow two boats... BUT... is anyone following these ladies?

I agree.. Mixed is a bad call for Cat racing... Our hand is strong right now... Nothing less then Open on a 20 footer of some sort.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:37 AM

Well, Mark, you guys had better get crackin'.

I'll remind you of your words three years ago - "any multihull."
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 03:26 AM

I would take any multihull... I just think the MIXED idea is terrible. Open or Mens or Womens would be better. I get the politics... Hell, make it OPEN and pick a 16 footer... I bet you would even get some all women teams competing.

Devon asked... WHY is mixed good for the sport of Cat Racing.... Somebody should offer at least a fig leaf of explanation...

Or, come out and say, it's the best we could get...

Mixed Doubles belongs at the country club.... not the Olympics. I just don't see it...and I have a suspicion that IOC won't like the deal either.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 04:14 AM

It was first proposed by the IOC for sailing in 1995. I brought up "open" at the table and I wasn't sure who was going to slap me first, Dawn Riley or Cory Sertl. Poll the other MNAs, espesh you Aussies and Brits. The people who know people are insisting that mixed is the way back into the Games. Open is code for "men's."

Mark - tell me what your suspicion is based upon.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 04:27 AM

I think its pretty poor for us to have to accept such a compromised situation to get the multihull back in the games. What about mixed match racing?? or mixed 2 person dinghy? Mixed 2 person keel boat?

Surely there is more mixed 2 person dinghy sailing going on around the world than mixed multihull sailing??

The ISAF horror show could see a mixed multihull on Hobie 16's..... welcome to the future!

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 05:11 AM

Better get on your MNA then, Macca.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 05:42 AM

My MNA are on the right page, PJ wrote the 5 and 5 plan.... but it appears that other MNA's are going down the half arsed route, that will see the old school approach retained whilst they appease the multihull crowd with this mixed multihull option... hence reducing the chances of sailing remaining an Olympic sport.

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:22 AM

And what submission number is that, specifically?

The 5/5 plan sounded great but has lost traction over the last two years. There was the ever-present problem of the women's multihull. The mixed event was introduced partly to better balance the gender question while acknowledging the unlikelihood of a stand-alone women's cat.

Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:47 AM

YA have no submission on the position, but they are supportive of the 5/5. More of interest is this:-
US Sailing submission 087-08 for the Athens meeting actually gives the position of US Sailing supporting 5/5.... so why has that changed??

You seems really proud that you achieved a vote for mixed multihull, yet the submission from US Sailing supports both a Mens and Womens multi... seems the position has changed against the multihull.

If we have to have a mixed multihull to ensure gender equality, then where is the mixed 2 person dinghy? and the mixed 2 person high performance dinghy, or the mixed 2 person keel boat etc... Or is it restricted to the multihull because its not a real event anyhow??

forced equality is not equal at all!!!

Make the event open and let those women who wish to compete enter, but to force it upon us is not the right way to go.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:20 AM

Poll this then, will mixed cat create more attraction to a greater spectater audience than an open cat, and Im speaking in general here as there is always an example, if so what happens when she falls pregnant, paid sailing maternity leave lolz, or I cant sail today I got my thingies, FFS you cant pull the wool over our eyes that easy John... IOC have stated what must happen, if you truly believe that a mixed event will overshadow an open event, and anyhow an open event will still allow mixed wouldnt it???? Im not sure on that one..If it does then why narrow it down
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:23 AM

And how can you put forward any event without a class, thats just dumb, lol i replied to my own post
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Poll this then, will mixed cat create more attraction to a greater spectater audience than an open cat, and Im speaking in general here as there is always an example, if so what happens when she falls pregnant, paid sailing maternity leave lolz, or I cant sail today I got my thingies, FFS you cant pull the wool over our eyes that easy John... IOC have stated what must happen, if you truly believe that a mixed event will overshadow an open event, and anyhow an open event will still allow mixed wouldnt it???? Im not sure on that one..If it does then why narrow it down


Congratulations, that was incredibly sexist. Glad you are not representing Multihulls at the games.

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
MIXED proposal = FAIL

Not because the girls can't do it, they can.

Because you are excluding MUSLIMS from a 'New' Olympic sport. IOC won't wear it. Badly thought out proposal.


The “excluding Muslims” comment makes for a very good argument against.

If there is only 1 discipline, then I am strongly in favour of it being open. Preferred Platform would be the Tornado, followed by the Nacra F20c. One up Vipers would be pretty cool.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
[quote=Devon]
The “excluding Muslims” comment makes for a very good argument against.



No, it doesn't. There are Christian Faiths that urge women to stay home just as there are Muslims who believe women should have full liberty. You've just pigeon-holed an entire religion with a stereotype applied universally.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:59 AM

Sorry didnt mean to be sexist, but if i had represented the T`s for multihull games then I would had bitch slapped all the ISAF members that voted the T out, instead i sold my T and bought a nacra, a sfor your preferance the F20C is bigger better and faster, so I pick it first, but wouldnt be adverse to seeing the T`s come back, I still do miss mine sooooo much, as for the 1 up viper, Id put it 2nd to the A class but only if the A`s use a spinaker, also we should see foiling winged moths, and the 18ft skiffs replacing the other classes, what is it with the ISAF
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
[quote=Devon]
The “excluding Muslims” comment makes for a very good argument against.



No, it doesn't. There are Christian Faiths that urge women to stay home just as there are Muslims who believe women should have full liberty. You've just pigeon-holed an entire religion with a stereotype applied universally.


Yes, I have and it is a mistake many of us often make. How about it excludes those who wish to practice that side of their chosen religion...... Also applies to some Christian Faiths as well.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 12:14 PM

OK Jake, i don't want to argue on this matter, I just think that we should get into the mindset of the IOC a bit more rather than just spout off what we want. It seems that the likes of the Finns and Womens match Racing contingent are better than the multihull sailors at politics.

Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG

Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.


While that may be true, it opens a ginormous can of worms to put it on the table...the suggestion to consider this aspect of a mixed class proposal is to asking the ISAF and the Olympics to support the oppression of women. That will be a hard sell.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG

Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.


While that may be true, it opens a ginormous can of worms to put it on the table...the suggestion to consider this aspect of a mixed class proposal is to asking the ISAF and the Olympics to support the oppression of women. That will be a hard sell.


I sincerely hope that the IOC and ISAF is as forward thinking as you are Mr. Kohl. It would be a real shame if they are not.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 01:49 PM

I thought participation in the Olympics was based on what country you were from, not which religion you practiced...?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 01:57 PM

Let's make sure this stays on topic and does not degrade into something that belongs in a political thread.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I thought participation in the Olympics was basded on what country you were from, not which religion you practiced...?


Yes - which is why religion shouldn't be part of the discussion. It's best to keep the topic completely off the table because the entire issue becomes highly politicized no matter which way it goes after that.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:10 PM

fine then some one tell me can open include mixed but mixed can not include open
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
[...]Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.
Oman sail? They are throwing quite a lot of money on the table to hire teams at the highest levels of the sport as well as funding a sailing school. They are still far from qualifying for the Olympics however, but anything is possible in 4 years when you throw money at it... Having them building an AC boat is more likely IMHO as they can hire the team internationally with a couple of token Omanis on board. I expect to hear about Loïc Peyron AC plans soon and I'm not sure he is going to helm Alinghi this time smile
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Let's make sure this stays on topic and does not degrade into something that belongs in a political thread.



Yeah, we already have a political thread, let's start a religious thread! (Kidding!!)

BTW, I'm a Pagan, what are you, big stone face boy? ;^)
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Devon
...an example, if so what happens when she falls pregnant, paid sailing maternity leave lolz, or I cant sail today I got my thingies...


As Mischa and Carrie sail over top all y'all...

That is the stupidest argument that I've ever heard on this board (other than in the Drill Baby thread).

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 03:33 PM

I'm glad you looked into it, Macca - while true that two years ago, YA supported the 5/5 approach (as did the US and a number of other countries), just about all of those deferred submissions have been withdrawn. My point is, do you know what YA is supporting next week?

It is essential to understand that you can dislike process and politics, yet still work effectively without losing your soul. You might not like that events are determined before equipment, but that is how it is done. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that equipment is a fractious topic that divides us, but a much lower hurdle than the event since nearly all cat sailors who feel an event is important are united in that sentiment. Unfortunately, we see those familiar cracks before we have even succeeded at regaining the event.

Keep in mind that, no matter what is selected as equipment, there will be factions that celebrate it and factions that vilify; inevitable. To the viewing public, there is virtually no distinction drawn between a race of 16-foot spinnaker boats and 20-foot spinnaker boats. If we get the medal, I anticipate an evaluation event where many cats will vie for the position - it isn't required to even be a currently existing design or class.

If I sound frustrated, you can bet I am. I miss the days of "any multihull." I knew they would end, just not so soon. Regardless, you have a few days left to make your voice heard, though by and large, the delegations have been working toward their positions for far longer than there has been discussion here. I am in an elected position. US sailors gave me a task and over a long period of consultation as positions evolved, I feel good about our chances to achieve a goal - a multihull event in 2016. As ever, if you are a member of US SAILING or a member of a fleet or club that is a member of the Multihull Council, you can help steer the ship by making your desires known. Contact your Area Rep or class officers. One good outcome from this sort of dissension is the possibility of more oars in the water.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 05:45 PM

John, I looked into it because I will be in Athens.... And I believe that we as multihull sailors should still pursue the correct solution for sailing, not the PC solution to satisfy the old guard...

And for sure the public will see the difference between a 16ft class and a 20ft class!! The 16ft mixed class will consist of 2 very small people (max crew weight of 120kg) so I expect pygmies and anorexics to do well.... And the public will see that!!! besides whatever the public sees, its important to do the right thing for sailing, and for sure a class of midgets is not in the best interest of our sport.

So if there is opposition to a 20ft boat (unfounded based on recent mixed crew performances in 20ft boats) then we will have an 18ft boat selected.... pure genius! and total screwup for the F18 class. Thanks ISAF...

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:25 PM

None of the possible equipment is ruled out under the proposed event. Midgets? Insensitive and incorrect. The best F16 teams in the US are F18 teams in the 150kg range. But again, you're caught up in the equipment - classic cart before horse.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:34 PM

i'm not caught up the equipment side of things beyond what I can foresee being issues with the muted event details.

And there is a reason the best current F16 teams are F18 teams, but I won't go into that for fear of yet another F16 attack smile

But seriously, if such a class was selected for the games you would see optimum crew weights drop to the 120kg level. As soon as top level teams get on the boats we will see that transition occur and then we will be stuck with an event for vertically challenged, little people and other not large people...

For me the big issue is the event, why the hell do we as multihull sailors have to be forced into a mixed discipline whilst the rest of the events maintain their gender status?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:42 PM


Just keep pushing that nonsense Mac !

Wouter
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by macca
<snip> . . . will be stuck with an event for vertically challenged, little people and other not large people...

You do realize who you're talking to here, don't you? He's like a founding member of Team Short.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:44 PM

"Attack?" Not from me! If you can recruit a world class 120 kg team for the F16 please do so, and the sooner the better.

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:49 PM

But Matt, you know that I have no Olympic aspirations and further I am quite capable of disconnecting my personal preferences from the issue. I wish everyone could.

I have seen every 120kg team regret their decision to go light on every 16-foot spin boat except the Hobie 16. First to de-power loses. It takes 140-150kg to make the high-aspect and grunty main/spin combo work.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 06:53 PM

"140-150"

+1
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:09 PM

And the 49er guys thought the same when the class started.... now look at the crew weight trends since the class' inception and now.

Same for Laser/Laser radial (once they became olympic)

Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:17 PM

I wouldn't know about 49ers and Lasers. Like I said, if you can recruit a 120 kg team please do.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:19 PM

There is one already, and very successful at that.

Won class at Carnac etc.

Only 119kg though

Oh, and its 2 girls so therefore not eligible for the mixed multihull event smile
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:22 PM

I've nothing against girls! If they can sail the boat good for them.

I consider that to be a strong point of the F16, that can be handled by a women's team.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:31 PM

Its perfect for a womens team, and not so perfect for a mixed team...Thats my point!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:38 PM

Why not so perfect for a mixed team? Weights?
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:39 PM

Fair enough.
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:45 PM

I'm with Macca on that one. I get the gist of his argument and I agree with him.

Mixed is not good for the IOC. Some countries just reject mixed sports. Don't get me started on that. So the IOC is not going to be happy with another mixed sport. Heck mixed was one of the reasons the Tornado was pushed out!

Open doesn't work either. I'm sorry but how many women participated in the "Open" tornado olympics? Forget it.

Olympics are sexists. As such multihulls need two events.

Note that I haven't mentioned anything about equipment yet.




So here you go, my ideal sailing olympics (10 events, one can dream):

Men single hander: RS600 foiler (trapeze + foils)
Women single hander: Flying Moth
Men double hander: 49er
Women double hander: Viper or similar cat
Men team event: X40 or AC 45. One nationality per boat.
Women team event: Match racing in 4knots **** box but with mandatory bikinis in team colors.
Men boards: Anything that sink if not moving
Women boards: Idem
Men kite: Freestyle
Women kite: freestyle


All boats one design and provided. Bring it on!
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Why not so perfect for a mixed team? Weights?


Weight is same for boys and girls, its just that its hard to find a mixed crew at 120kg..
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:00 PM

John

I take the IOC at their word. 10 events. equal males and females. Visually exciting and viewer friendly. This proposal does not deliver the goods to IOC.

There are many ways to balance the male/female ratio. Two mixed events is a CRAP solution that works for ISAF but probably won't appeal to the IOC. They are on record as not liking mixed events.

The IOC does not care what boats are used... they want visually exciting and viewer friendly.... They also demand events which are the pinnacle of the sport. They never had reason to question this before... now they do. I DEFY YOU to point to a major World or National championship that is required to be mixed. The IOC will see through this mixed proposal BS as more ISAF politics that fails to deliver events that the IOC will pay for. They are NOT going to fund a Country Club Social Sport mixed doubles sailing.......
That's my opinion (and I agree with the IOC on this one)


ISAF said 5 and 5.... the MNA's come back with this bastard proposal to play the same game as the last time with modifications. They are each trying to preserve their competitive angle. The MNA's COULD have balanced genders in this proposal... men's Catamaran... women's 470's..... BUT... they opted for mixed in both for purely political reasons. ISAF political groups might not like OPEN because they read men... BUT THIS ISSUE can be managed with the choice of equipment. Moreover, the women's group thew skiffs and multihulls and the 5th event under the bus last time so that they could get match racing. I question their upset with Open events.

The MNA's are playing the boat and event game... The Olympic class's are playing the boat and event game. The Women's committee is playing the boat and event game. The multihull contingent played poker thinking they had a weak hand....and HAD to take the mixed option to get a multi into the mix.
(I would have walked at that point... you can't compromise the core value of Olympic Sailing... which is ... “this is the pinnacle of the sport”) An event without integrity is a non event. Will mixed multihull sailing be viewed as the peak of the sport???

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.

I would not be surprised if the IOC drops sailing.... and ISAF and the MNA's will completely own this outcome.

Your mileage may vary... I hope I am wrong.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:05 PM

Well said Mark.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
But Matt, you know that I have no Olympic aspirations and further I am quite capable of disconnecting my personal preferences from the issue. I wish everyone could.

I have seen every 120kg team regret their decision to go light on every 16-foot spin boat except the Hobie 16. First to de-power loses. It takes 140-150kg to make the high-aspect and grunty main/spin combo work.


I distinctly recall that Tradewinds several years ago when you and I sailed together at the weight where we could legally run either the big or small sails on the F18. I lobbied for the big sails thinking we could man-it-up. I have no doubt that we would have fared better with the small jib and spin that weekend. The weight issue is usually made a bigger deal than it truly is on any platform and I see examples of it all the time when racing A-cats....a boat that should be more weight sensitive than any others - but isn't.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:21 PM

Am I the only one who thinks mixed sports have a place in the Olympics? Don't they have mixed ice skating? I don't see that as making them "lesser" events.

EDIT: Jake, you're right, except on H14 and H16. Those boats have a pretty narrow weight range to be at the pinnacle (unless you're Carleton Tucker, I suppose).

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 08:46 PM

Mark, you have some inaccuracies in there. First, IOC has said "mixed" AND said "not mixed." Find for me what they really want this time. Second, ISAF has never said 5/5 - those proposals never got a vote, were deferred, and almost every one of them withdrawn.

Why is a mixed team on some high-performance boat yet to be determined NOT the pinnacle of the beach cat niche?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:01 PM

John, The fact is this: there is a greater percentage of mixed dinghy sailing taking place than there is mixed multihull. So why not have the same % of representation at the games?

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:02 PM

Exactly why two gender-specific multihull events are impossible to achieve.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:09 PM

Ok, so how about a mixed dinghy event?

Most keel boat racing even at top level has mixed participation, so lets do that too.

The reality is that there is not one example of forced mixed participation classes in the real world, so how does forcing such a situation for the Olympics represent the actuality of the multihull sailing or any other class for that matter?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:15 PM

Quote
Why is a mixed team on some high-performance boat yet to be determined NOT the pinnacle of the beach cat niche?


Answer: Because we have NO World championships that mandate MIXED. Our current pinnacle are OPEN WORLDS... pick your class.

Singing Kumbaya and inventing a new Mount Olympus called MiXED MULTIHULL RACING is a new one that ONLY ISAF believes they can sell to the IOC.

ISAF and votes.... err... right... the back room works it's magic again. 5 and 5 was the ideal initial proposal. Everyone recognized that women's multihull had no constituency so that would be a problem. (I know I wrote about the problem at the time). BUT... Who would have thought they would come up with MIXED as a solution? As an interested bystander... I heard of mixed just a month or so ago...

Bottom line.... Booo!... (It's Halloween)

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:23 PM

Leaving aside that there are many reasons to have gender-specific dinghy events, if we focus instead on what is achievable, and we agree that one multihull event is probable, and you want to have men and women participate out of a gender-equity approach, then what conclusion do you come to? Open is code for "men's." There were some women in the Tornado "open" fleet, but as Devon pointed out for us, it was male dominated. What do you think the women in catamaran sailing want if there is only one event? I know quite clearly what the women in US SAILING want - when I said "open" at the table, I wasn't sure who was going to slap me first, Dawn Riley or Cory Sertl.

Haven't heard much from women catsailors today... care to chime in?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:30 PM

John, to assume that a Mixed multihull event is suitable then you have to assume that there is at least close to 50% participation in multihull sailing, otherwise this "mixed" event is not representative of multihull sailing.

F18, Tornado, F16 etc are all "open" events and there are women competing, so that would appear to be the best representation of our "niche" as you put it.

So, there should be 50% of these posts from women, and at the F18 worlds we should have around 90 women competing..... neither of which are happening so why the kiss do we have the potential for this to be an Olympic event?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:35 PM

You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope, Andrew. And when was the last time you went to a Hobie 16 event?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:35 PM

Yes... but the ISAF women s committee of all women VOTED the last time AGAINST the many younger women who wanted a 5th event in 29ner skiffs.

They voted against the few women who wanted a Women's cat.

They EVEN voted against a 5th women's event.

THEY ONLY WANT A MATCH RACE Event .... I firmly believe they play the game to make sure they keep women's match race because it furthers their personal professional careers. Just my evaluation of their voting record.

My advice... tell em to show up the selection trials for OPEN MULTIHULL and make their case on equipment they can race.... Since, they are more interested in wiggling the stick at the back of a farr bazzilion for a fee... I doubt they show up.

Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope, Andrew. And when was the last time you went to a Hobie 16 event?


I'm looking to the future of multihull sailing, not the past....
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:39 PM

So you're choosing to ignore the biggest one design multihull class in the world...
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:41 PM

nope, I just want to see the event/class for the Olympics to represent multihull sailing going forward rather than the past.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:42 PM

Or the present. Sorry, but you just can't be selective about what classes you'll consider when trying to get your arms around what is happening in multihull sailing.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:47 PM

Why not? ISAF are....

Is there anyone who seriously thinks that the H16 is the right boat for the games????

Do you want multihull sailing to be represented at the Olympic games by a H16??

Oh, and remember: the H16 is an OPEN class!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:53 PM

John

Here's a different question.
Should the Olympic Equipment and be challenging enough to sort out the best sailors in the world?

Or should the Olympic Equipment simply reflect what's popular world wide?

My answer is drawn from mandates to the equipment committee will consider boats that are NOT EVEN DESIGNED OR BUILT YET.... therefore, the answer cannot be the latter!

In reality... they politics of ISAF and MNAs are looking at disciplines, classes, boats and their own interests STILL! Clean and simple guidelines are irrelevant in this muddy muddy quagmire.

Bill Roberts made the first point on this forum many many moons ago.... he was right then and now! (He used the Formula I analogy... you don't sort the best drivers in the world out using stock minivans.)
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 09:54 PM

We're not discussing the equipment for the Games, though. We're discussing mixed multihull sailing, of which there is plenty. As long as you consider the largest one design fleet in the world.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:05 PM

Actually, we are discussing multihulls and the Olympics. And none of us wants to have multihull sailing represented at the Olympics by a H16..

Posted By: F18_VB

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Why not? ISAF are....

Is there anyone who seriously thinks that the H16 is the right boat for the games????

Do you want multihull sailing to be represented at the Olympic games by a H16??

Oh, and remember: the H16 is an OPEN class!
I think the H16 is the perfect Womens catamaran for the Olympics.

It is one of the few classes in the world that actually has a women's championship since at least 1989:
http://www.hobieclass.com/default.asp?Page=1913
It is cheap to own. It is SMOD. It is the largest catamaran class anywhere. Many teams sail it mixed. Youth can sail it. Its not that slow.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:08 PM

And how long would a H16 remain competitive if used by Olympic teams for training and competition?

how many regatta's would you get from a set of sails?

What would the impact be on a 4 year campaign cost?

I know the answers, and they are not so good....
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:23 PM

Who in the world is proposing the Hobie 16 as an Olympic boat?

I was half in the "open" camp, but these posts are actually clearing things up for me. When you make the arguments for keeping Olympic women out of multihull sailing "out loud," it gets easier to understand why there is a push for "mixed."

Cast off the anchor of specific boats and consider how best to present an exciting and engaging multihull event that is truly "open" to women's participation.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:31 PM

Well... you might ask Pease and Carolijn what the constraints are.... they seem to do well in the OPEN era. Their experience is very much counter to the Betsy Allison Old Fart point of view.

I don't hear the comments as negative to women participating in the Olympic Multihull at all. Make it open and pick suitable equipment... Open Multihull and OPen 470 events have integrity... Mixed do not.

Yes... most of the women racing catamarans are on Hobie 16's but opposing the H16 as a boat for this MiXED event is not equivalent to dissing women.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:37 PM

Ok, lets make it open:-

we need a boat that has an optimum crew weight of between 135 and 150kg. to ensure we dont have tiny teams..

That rules out the F16, like it or not. The F16 crew weight will go down to around 120kg if it goes Olympic.

F18 actually works pretty well, top level teams will be competitive in that weight range. Not so good for the class though.... plus the boats are restricted in build material so they will go soft before an Olympic team gets full value from them.

I am all for women sailing cats in the Games, my Girlfriend would be a solid chance at going to the games on a cat but even she thinks the mixed event is a stupid idea.

There are a few agenda's at play here, ISAF claim to want equal participation. So if that the case lets go with 5/5. it ensures equality and also integrity of the events.

Just because there isn't much Womens only multihull sailing going on isn't an excuse. Just build the discipline and they will come!

Show me where I can find a 2 man keel boat class other than the Star? So its clearly not about what is actually happening in the world of sailing....
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:42 PM

Are we not trying to fix something that wasnt broken in the first place?
What is wrong with just keeping it an open event? The girls can participate and have as much of a chance of winning as the boys.
With the Tornado there where very few teams, I think turning it into a mixed event could reduce the number of teams even further.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 10:58 PM

Tony.... er... read faster... eek
the train on the tracks supported by a growing number of MNA's is Mixed Multhull blancing Mixed dinghy

...Equipment to follow (except that it will be the 470 since everyone has at least two of these boats and the winks have been exchanged).

If it were OPEN Multihull and Open dinghy we would be singing Hosanna's to our multihull reps for doing a spectacular job negotiating the swamp!

Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:17 PM

Just thinking aloud:

If ISAF brings a multihull back to the Olympics, there are three things they can do:

a) Reinstate the Tornado, because it is simple and there is a precendent with the Star, that also was reinstated after it left.
b) Adopt a new class through trials, like when the Tornado became an Olympic class.
c) Choose an existing class, that is extremely unlikely, for any choice they make is guaranteed to displease the majority of multihullers.

This very thread demonstrates how difficult it is to please everyone's wishes when it comes to existing classes, and if ISAF brings a multihull back, they will certainly want all the political credit they can get. A new class chosen by trials is a politically wiser choice in this regards.

As a consequence, it is fair to conclude that the direct choice of an existing class (option c) is extremely unlikely - unless it can win the trials (option b). In view of that, we are left with two rational lines of action:

a) Lobby for the Tornados.
b) Lobby for trials.


Everything else is a waste of work, time and money.

Proposals to choose an existing class for the Olympics must exclude those unable to win the trials, but don't waste your time thinking about it, for it is impossible to forecast anything without knowing the set of criteria (like weight, performance, cost, media atractiveness, etc.) and their respective weights.

An interesting alternative is to discuss the best criteria for the trials. It might actually be useful if ISAF goes this way.

Cheers,
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:20 PM

There will for sure be a trial event.

What we want to do is define the event, and make sure that event is in the best interests of sailing and not just satisfying a PC requirement..
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:24 PM

Or make sure a 20-footer for 180kg teams isn't right out...
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:32 PM

Well, the last 20ft boat in the games was sailed by teams from 135-160kg
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:51 PM

That is true.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:57 PM

If popularity with non-sailors, numbers, price and tactical complexity (read: slow speed) are overweighted, the Wave could be the thing...

I'd like to know what set of criteria/weights are best to keep the IOC, media, public, ISAF, sailors and multihullers happy?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/25/10 11:59 PM

ME TOO!!! laugh
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:02 AM

One design
modern features
spectacular to watch (read: over powered)
quality build
longevity of components
quality, long lasting sails
availability
accessibility


If womens only: 115-130kg
If Mens only : 145-160kg
if mixed: 130-150kg

thats my point of view..
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:43 AM

F-20 C for the Olympics.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by hobie18rich
F-20 C for the Olympics.


But is it built well enough? A Tornado could and would last multiple campaigns, that's what is so great about the T. Sure you've got some cost up front, but you aren't junking a boat twice a year, (or once a year, whatever), and really its the cheapest in the long run. Maybe that matter's maybe it doesn't.

I definitely agree with Andrew about it has to be overpowered and exciting to watch, yet sailable even if it is more or less out of control.


(edit)- I never watched any of the C-Class videos until this past year's Little America's Cup. Those things are awesome to watch. To be honest, even as a catsailor, short of watching some crashes, or really gnarly conditions, this is pretty boring as a spectator. Probably more so if you have no idea what is really going on.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by macca

One design
modern features
spectacular to watch (read: over powered)
quality build
longevity of components
quality, long lasting sails
availability
accessibility

If womens only: 115-130kg
If Mens only : 145-160kg
if mixed: 130-150kg

thats my point of view..


An excellent start! I'll try to improve on it:

- Smart, strict one design.
- Modern features.
- Media friendly: spectacular to watch (over powered), easy to attach cameras everywhere, etc.
- Spectator friendly: high level competition from 4 to 30 knots of wind, smart race format.
- High quality/price ratio.
- Very good longevity at Olympic level racing (8-10 years), extremely high longevity in normal racing conditions.
- Quality, long lasting, decent cost sails, with replacement frequency limits.
- Worldwide availability
- Ease of assembly/disassembly for transport (logistics are an important issue for the games).

- Weights, double handed:

If Women only: 120-140kg
If Men only : 150-190kg
If Mixed : 130-150kg

(higher weight allows for older/more experienced sailors - this is what kept the Finn as an Olympic class for decades. If they drop the Finn, maybe the heavy/experienced sailors will switch to the multihull, especially with the AC focused on cats)

- Weights, singlehanded: half of the above figures.


After looking at all this, I like the F20c for the Olympics, even if it might loose against an ARC 22.

Now, imagine if Bill Roberts decides to add lifting foils and adjusts its other features accordingly. I guess he could do that. He also has experience with foils placed forward of the main beam, that would provide the same pitchpole resistance with less vertical lift = less drag...

Ok, dream over. Anyone else will give it a try?

Cheers,
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 01:34 AM

I don’t think multihull sailors should accept anything short of the 5/5 proposal. The landscape has changed drastically over the last year and the Olympics now needs multihulls more than multihulls need the Olympics.

PS: Get rid of the damn 470 and you can quote me on that.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Actually, we are discussing multihulls and the Olympics. And none of us wants to have multihull sailing represented at the Olympics by a H16..



Whoaaa there. Don't speak for me. My mind isn't made up on this but I haven't excluded the H16 from my thinking. What rings more familiar with the general population than a Hobie 16? If speed and performance were the highest achievements of Olympic sport, the Laser would never have made the cut.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG

Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.


While that may be true, it opens a ginormous can of worms to put it on the table...the suggestion to consider this aspect of a mixed class proposal is to asking the ISAF and the Olympics to support the oppression of women. That will be a hard sell.


Or should ISAF support the discrimination of people’s religious beliefs. Your view on this matter (which I share) is in line with the majority of the Western World's view. However in my country it is also illegal to discriminate against someone’s religious belief. Can of worms goes both ways. ISAF could just as easily avoid it by deciding that Mixed is not in line with general Multihull sailing.

As for equipment, I agree. Get the Multihull over the line as either Men’s and Woman’s or Open. Not just a men’s event and not mixed if you can help it. Then worry about equipment. If it is the H16 then it is better than nothing, however would prefer to see the T or F20c.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
John

I take the IOC at their word. 10 events. equal males and females. Visually exciting and viewer friendly. This proposal does not deliver the goods to IOC.

There are many ways to balance the male/female ratio. Two mixed events is a CRAP solution that works for ISAF but probably won't appeal to the IOC. They are on record as not liking mixed events.

The IOC does not care what boats are used... they want visually exciting and viewer friendly.... They also demand events which are the pinnacle of the sport. They never had reason to question this before... now they do. I DEFY YOU to point to a major World or National championship that is required to be mixed. The IOC will see through this mixed proposal BS as more ISAF politics that fails to deliver events that the IOC will pay for. They are NOT going to fund a Country Club Social Sport mixed doubles sailing.......
That's my opinion (and I agree with the IOC on this one)


ISAF said 5 and 5.... the MNA's come back with this bastard proposal to play the same game as the last time with modifications. They are each trying to preserve their competitive angle. The MNA's COULD have balanced genders in this proposal... men's Catamaran... women's 470's..... BUT... they opted for mixed in both for purely political reasons. ISAF political groups might not like OPEN because they read men... BUT THIS ISSUE can be managed with the choice of equipment. Moreover, the women's group thew skiffs and multihulls and the 5th event under the bus last time so that they could get match racing. I question their upset with Open events.

The MNA's are playing the boat and event game... The Olympic class's are playing the boat and event game. The Women's committee is playing the boat and event game. The multihull contingent played poker thinking they had a weak hand....and HAD to take the mixed option to get a multi into the mix.
(I would have walked at that point... you can't compromise the core value of Olympic Sailing... which is ... “this is the pinnacle of the sport”) An event without integrity is a non event. Will mixed multihull sailing be viewed as the peak of the sport???

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.

I would not be surprised if the IOC drops sailing.... and ISAF and the MNA's will completely own this outcome.

Your mileage may vary... I hope I am wrong.


Great response. If ISAF have any spine, then perhaps they should tell the MNA’s to STFU and consider what is best for sailing. I am sure every MNA would strongly support Multihulls if they had a Bundy / Ashby in their squad. This is where the decision is flawed. MNA’s opinion based on their medal chances should take a flying leap.

BTW, strongly agree with Macca on the weight issue.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
[The weight issue is usually made a bigger deal than it truly is on any platform and I see examples of it all the time when racing A-cats....a boat that should be more weight sensitive than any others - but isn't.


Because the mast and sails are not OD. The rig can be tailored to someones weight.
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:10 AM

I still think the H16 would be a decent choice for the Olympics, shoot me in the head if you want.
They are competitively sailed by more countries than ANY other boat, we don't even have an F20C in Australia!!!
This is the Olympics, not a tech race, More countries could send more competitors with H16 experience and have a genuine shot of coming back with a medal, They do require skill to keep them upright in a decent blow, and you can sail them in a decent blow.
What is so wrong about that? Who cares if they aren't the fastest boat around.... they use lasers in the olympics, and they get heaps of competitors, don't they????
Don't get me wrong, I love the T, and the F20C, but for a truely international representation of cat sailors with good racing skills (mixed, open...... whatever) I think the H16 hits the target.
We have all sailed a H16 at some point in our lives after all.......
(Chocko hides under desk)
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:34 AM

Quote

There is one already, and very successful at that.

Won class at Carnac etc.

Only 119kg though

Oh, and its 2 girls so therefore not eligible for the mixed multihull event



Yep, but Liz and Carolijn are on record (several times already) stating that they feel "light" on the (overweight = + 20 kg) Viper and are fighting in the breezes. They wished that they had a little more lard on the wire. Scores of sailors, as John says, have come to the same conclusion. From Matt/Gina to JC.

And that is why you are so full of it Macca.

You twist and turn everything to suit your own distorted world view and then truth has no longer anything to do with it. We all know that here and it seems high time that you yourself realize that.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:45 AM


Quote

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.


+ 1

Play from the card that they need us more then we need them.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:11 AM

Now I'm convinced that one of the F16 builders is making great inroads as a potential olympic class as the representatives of some well know cat-builder are doing their very best to diss this particular class in public at every chance they get !

Not long before we'll start to see claims that the F16's are best sailed by an all-child team below 12 years of age (where foiling boats and F17's are not ?). Or how these are overpriced carbon wonders (where the F20C/F17 are not ?). Not to mentioned the usual canard that the F16's has no international fleets of large numbers like the F18 (where the F20c/F17 have ?)

What a joke !

Some people apparently have a huge blind spot and are totally biased as a result.

If that is the way some particular SMOD (prototype) design must be advanced in the greater scheme of things then I really don't fancy its chances.

Personally I think the F20C is unlikely to be selected because it ticks none of these boxes and is as of yet still an unkown rarity with a relatively large potential for teething problems like the wild bull ride that Macca himself displayed in his video.

When faced with a choice between the T and the F20C I favour the chances of the first by 100 to 1

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:21 AM


Other then that I'm with Jake and John here.

The discussion is first about the events and the main goal is to get a multihull discipline included in the big O.

While I do not favour the H16 as the equipment choice; I will support it with everything I have if that is the only option on the table. I think every multihull sailor, builder and builder representative should do the same. Failing to do so weakens our negociating hand as a community and will most likely result in disselecting the multihull from the big O.

When we have the first Multi O. event then we must continue to expand the selection to include more high performamce events hopefully cooperating with the skiff and foiling moth crowd. Force the hand of ISAF by leveraging them in any way we can.

Personally I feel that anybody engaged in "in-fighting" is part of the problem.

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

There is one already, and very successful at that.

Won class at Carnac etc.

Only 119kg though

Oh, and its 2 girls so therefore not eligible for the mixed multihull event



Yep, but Liz and Carolijn are on record (several times already) stating that they feel "light" on the (overweight = + 20 kg) Viper and are fighting in the breezes. They wished that they had a little more lard on the wire. Scores of sailors, as John says, have come to the same conclusion. From Matt/Gina to JC.

And that is why you are so full of it Macca.

You twist and turn everything to suit your own distorted world view and then truth has no longer anything to do with it. We all know that here and it seems high time that you yourself realize that.

Wouter



Wouter, You have no idea how happy it makes me to see that you are not on my team.

You constantly display an uncanny ability to turn any discussion into an attack on a person, however unwarranted it may be.

Now, let me pull your comments apart so its clear to all concerned that you are the one thats full of it:-

in the Carnac interview, Carnac interview
It was "quite windy" but they settled in quite quickly
It was the first time Carolijn and Liz had sailed together
Liz had not sailed a small catamaran for 5-6 years
Carolijn says the boat is quite easy to handle in choppy conditions
Carolijn says she was very happy with the performance of the boat through the whole wind range.


Now, in the interview there is no mention at all of the team feeling that they are too light for the boat.

And as you so proudly pointed out at the time, they won the regatta, so I guess being 119kg is not so bad (scored1,1,1,1,2,1,3) and all this was achieved with a fresh team with no training time at all prior to the event. Now imaging how an Olympic level team would perform after countless hours training?


As for the rest of your comments relating to the F20... You need to pull your head in on that subject until you can come in here and say that you have sailed (or at least attempted to) on the boat. Claiming that the boat has teething problems and is a prototype???? WTF!! there have been more than 70 boats built since march 2010!!!. And do you think AC teams would be buying them to train on and race if it didn't meet their high standards? in 2011 there will be more F20's competing as a class than F16 have ever had at events, all this within 12 months of release....

Posted By: Steve_Kwiksilver

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 11:17 AM

What I see here are people arguing over what classes, and what categories (gender) should be sailed which are representative of catsailing worldwide.
If the IOC has asked that equipment be affordable and easily accessed to all participating countries, then that dictates a SMOD approach like the laser. If that is the deciding criteria then ISAF would do well to choose off-the shelf classes like Laser, H16, 49er, etc. This is not my preference, but we should put our preferences aside if we`d like sailing to stay an Olympic sport. Perhaps H16 with spinnaker is not the worst possible choice and will satisfy IOC requirements in this regard.
Macca and others who are afraid that the H16 or F16 will drive the weight down to 120-130kg are only seeing it from their own perspectives. Why does the pinnacle of sailing have to have big burly competitors ? Sailing is not weight-lifting - countries who do well at table-tennis (ie small-built eastern people)may become the new Olympic sailing heroes. It has happened in windsurfing already.
If countries with bigger people on average want to compete then maybe they have to change their perspectives, and send teenagers or mixed crews to meet the desired weight targets. Teenagers such as those who won the F16 Europeans would be well-suited to the "new" Olympic sailing criteria, which is a good way to keep sailing in the Olympics - you don`t see 45year old gymnasts in most Olympic sports, so why do we keep them in sailing ? This is part of the reason sailing has no appeal to the viewing public.
If heavyweights want to compete then they will have to choose women or teenage crewmembers.
SO perhaps the 2-person boat selection should cater for a lightweight crew, which will in itself dictate that it be open to men, women and youth, with no false rules dictating that mixed crews are a requirement. This will happen as a result of the boat choice.
There is a reason the F16 & H16 have more mixed and teenage crews than the F18 - the ideal crew weight for the F18 does not promote mixed crews, and teenage crews must carry weights, and become uncompetitive in strong breeze. So choosing an 18-20ft boat dictates that an all-male crew is preferred. In my head this would not be an ideal situation for ISAF to present to IOC.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:02 PM

ok lets sort some things out
The IOC will end olympic sailing if bla bla bla and amongst the failing yes thats right failing fleet is the laser, the most common sailed boat just like the hobie 16, are you guys getting this. Even the laser isnt doing for sailing what the ioc need to continue keeping events, so please stop saying just because the hobie is the most common, means that it will appeal the public, because the laser isnt! The laser is on the same IOC condemmed list with the rest of the ISAF IOC current boats.
Next... John you could not be more wrong in regard to stating that you must first get an event then choose a weapon, you dont buy a plane ticket with out knowing where you are going do u? By narrowing down the parameters by not allowing the possibilitie to choose open or mixed etc is plane foolish, definately by making the event mixed will restrict what type of cat we can put forward, instead shouldnt we first choose a vessel that will meet what the IOC are warning us we have to have, it wont be the event eg mixed which will spurr on the spectators it will be the vessel. Once the correct type of cat has been chosen, one that will draw spectators, then marry a crew to it, not before. The T association recently did just like what the x40`s did and sailed in close right next to the crowds, imagine the carbon20 Nacra doing the same, up close, big, fast, and able to show off infront of the crowd doing wheelies etc, or inagine a 16 footer trying this,just wouldnt have the same WOW factor so lets first choose a vessel that the public would prefer and worry about who or what sex gets to sail it last.. Tell me this, if you watch weightlifting in the olympics, whats the main event womens or mens, that is what the IOC are saying! give the general public a main event! Not what you find on the beach for hire..
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:07 PM

What do the x-Olympic Tornado sailors think?
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:08 PM

The issue maybe the better sailors are fitter (thus lighter) than the average sailor of same height.

Hypothetical question.. Say an "A" subclass was selected.. How many kgs do you consider the guys would drop at the pointy end of the fleet? Think Ashbey would need to lose 10Kg to go for gold?
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:16 PM

They know that they are now no longer the fastest and most spectacular 20 footers in the water, their time has passed, I am an ex T club sailer, not olympic, but i felt for a young lad that trained every day so hard for years to aspire to sail his fathers tornado in the olympics only to have all his dreams wiped. The ISAF have a lot of ground to make up and are thus far failing to do so!!!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:27 PM

Macca I took your example of Carnac at face value but imo, it doesn't hold up as proof of very much. We knew the ladies in question were good sailors before the event took place.

"so I guess being 119kg is not so bad (scored1,1,1,1,2,1,3)" No disresect to any of the participants but it doesn't sound like a very strong fleet. JC and Dalton beat me, last weekend, by quite a large margin but that doesn't make them world champions or even speak to their (considerable) prowess.

Did any team ever win the Olympics by such a margin, on Torando or any other boat?

Let's consider how "a fresh team with no training time at all prior to the event" would fare against an Olympic fleet. I'm guessing their score would be considerably less impressive than the one posted above.

"Now imaging how an Olympic level team would perform after countless hours training?"

Why? Against whom? A fleet of club racers? What would the result prove? Do you expect that these ladies would repeat their Carnac score against an Olympic fleet?

I think a result must be repeatable in order to be varified as fact. For me to accept your 120 kg premise you'll need to present more results.



Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:38 PM

Eurocat results

Not exactly muppets behind them..
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 12:50 PM

Guys at 65 - 75 kilos are pretty common in an awful lot of countries, they also have a lot more physical strength than ladies of the same weight, whats the problem.

I for one would definately vote against the F16's entering the Olympics, the Viper as a SMOD would be another matter. The Viper being selected would leave the semi development class as it is and allow all the development in sails and hulls to those who want to do just that, develop the class whilst the Viper class would remain the Viper. Best of all worlds for all concerned.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Eurocat results

Not exactly muppets behind them..


Something very odd happened to the F16 handicap for that event! the other boats in the fleet weren't very happy and Ms Broujer didn't do herself any favours that week, let alone sell anything!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 02:21 PM

If I remember... they did not declare the boat as an F16... they used their measurement rating certificate...(which is slower). That's an F16 class issue (oft debated... never resolved but not really an issue in an Open class regatta.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Eurocat results

Not exactly muppets behind them..


Thank you. Now at least there is a little more data to consider.

Can anyone provide accurate weights for any of these other crews?

I'd like to compare JW's 140-150 premise to Macca's 120.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 02:57 PM

2nd was a mixed team on a Viper at about 130kg
3rd was a mixed/youth team on a spitfire at 125kg
4 and 5th were youth teams on sl 16s

not very accurate but gives some idea
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 03:06 PM

I'm on record as thinking the T will be the Olympic boat, if only because it is arguably at the forefront (still) of being one of the coolest cats out there, and, as is obvious, the fleet knows how to be an Olympic class and has been there for a while.

Now, that said, I can see why the n20c would be a great boat for the Olympics (clearly it is bleeding edge cat design), but from a non cat sailor perspective, it is so new that maybe it is seen as too risky compare to the T (again, my opinion / hunch, I know you can poke holes in this).

Now, the Viper, hmmm, never even thought of that. If it came down to a H16 with spin or Viper, I would hope the entire cat world would get behind the Viper as IMO it would at least appeal to both non sailors and sailors as being a respectible boat. An H16? Maybe to non sailors, but any racing sailor knows that boat, as friendly as it is, is simply out dated (again IMO).

For me the real question comes down to Mixed vs Open vs Men / Women boats. I think mixed is an awful idea, open could work and maybe should focus on a boat like an F16 as to at least make it more likely you will have female teams, male teams, mixed teams. 50/50 split would mean two different boats, challenging to find two that would work I think.

My rant, hope we can keep this discussion as a discussion and not as some sort of cat fight (pardon the pun, couldn't help myself). As any infighting would certainly hurt cat sailing in the long run.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
2nd was a mixed team on a Viper at about 130kg
3rd was a mixed/youth team on a spitfire at 125kg
4 and 5th were youth teams on sl 16s

not very accurate but gives some idea


That's beginning to sound like a professional team sailing against amateurs. Is this the case? I don't object to pro/am events but I would like the case to be made clear.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 03:12 PM

Devon, you've put a lot out there as though it were fact. I'm not trying to single you out here, but if you think you've correctly summarized the Tornado Class' position with "they know they're not the fastest," you're continuing to illustrate the sort of limited view that helped create the atmosphere wherein we lost the event in the first place. Like as not, it is a fact that the event must be chosen first. Further, nowhere does it say that the fastest multihull must be chosen as the equipment. Under the "mixed" designation, the Tornado Class still feels good about their chances of being selected, so you're not arguing for "any 20-footer," you want one specific boat. I'm sorry, but that approach simply doesn't earn a seat at the table for a discussion about what the event should be.

The submission (097-10) we're discussing is from the Exec and based upon the Olympic Commission's report, which was vetted through the IOC. This thing has pedigree and the significant thing from our perspective is that a multihull event is expressed to be important to include. Those are facts.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
What do the x-Olympic Tornado sailors think?


Nice question Jake.

I asked 2 past Olympic T sailors and one guy that campaigned and the answer was:
1) Hobie 16, maybe an F18
2) Hobie 16
3) F18


And if you're going to call the 16 'outdated'(etc,etc), then to be fair you'd better then describe why it's the largest actively raced catamaran class in the world.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 03:20 PM

This discussion is quickly becoming as relevant and interesting as the Drill baby thread.
Multi’s are not even back in the picture yet and sailing general looks to tentative at best.

No matter the boat (or sport) there will be some optimum body weight/shape that eventually becomes gospel. The result is due as much from the actual physics as it is from the competitor psychology.

The reality is on any given day with the conditions the very top level guys may have an extremely small advantage over the other top level teams due to fitting the environment that day. If it changes one of the other teams may better fit the next day. This may, at the highest level, help determine some pecking order. Once you move down in the ranks from the very top, any small advantage from being at the optimal weight is completely over powered by the skill level of the team. The skilled team light or heavy will win.

What is frustrating is for 99.99% of the sailors I know weight has nothing to do with their performance. 1 Tiny mistake on the course completely outweighs any weight based gains or losses they may ever be able to realize. (When was the last time anyone reading this ran the perfect race – I’m lucky if I can keep it in the groove for 10 boat lengths at a time.) Yet the discussions on this board and on the beach constantly revolve around weight. “What is optimum, oh, I’m too big to be competitive, I cannot get that boat because I’m 5kg over some number somebody posted on a forum etc…..

We as cat sailors really do ourselves a disservice with discussions like this. It definitely hurts trying to sell our sport to the world, sell to the converts from the sport boat world and it definitely does the new sailor no good to try and learn when he is constantly being brainwashed into believing his performance is limited due to some 10kg weight window.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
2nd was a mixed team on a Viper at about 130kg
3rd was a mixed/youth team on a spitfire at 125kg
4 and 5th were youth teams on sl 16s


not very accurate but gives some idea


That's beginning to sound like a professional team sailing against amateurs. Is this the case? I don't object to pro/am events but I would like the case to be made clear.


Yes, one pro team on a mission against 50 amateurs [Some with sponsorship but not pro]

Loday and Henry White work for Loday/White but are probably not paid to sail
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 04:10 PM

Quote

If I remember... they did not declare the boat as an F16... they used their measurement rating certificate...(which is slower). That's an F16 class issue (oft debated... never resolved but not really an issue in an Open class regatta.


This is not a class issue; any boat participating in a race as an F16 must sail off the official F16 rating (that is based on the class rules and not actual measurements). Any boat declared otherwise may and must request an individual rating based on actual measurements of that particular boat. This rating will then have nothing to do with the F16 class and the F16 class will not accept any such measurements or certificates as valid for F16 racing.

F16 class rules only govern F16 racing and boats explicetly declared as such in open class races. Other situations are not the F16 class responsibility. Identical situations arise with respect to the F18 and A-cat classes. Therefor it is not a (F16) class issue.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 04:17 PM


What Matt McDonald said

+1
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 04:52 PM

OK, no one wanted to repsond when I pointed out that mixed events are already successfully in the Olympics (mixed ice skating).

Here's another fake issue: old people don't bring in Olympic spectators. One of the fastest growing sports (in terms of TV time, at least) is curling. Lots of old people there, it's a game where skill can outweigh athletic prowess (not unlike sailing, BTW)...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 05:13 PM

Wouter

You can't expect the rest of the open fleet to follow the ins' and outs of the F16 pool of boats....In their world... you don't have the same boats that are sometime F18's and sometimes not F18's on any given weekend.

when Viper sailors choose to not play as F16's as is their right when they don't make class in an open event and have a measurement certificate.... it does cause some amount of indigestion in the rest of the fleet when the ratings are quite different. Your mileage will vary as to whether this is an issue for the F16 class or not.

From the fleet's point of view... if the boat carries an F16 sticker on it. (no matter how the owner wants to register it that day with or without a ratings certificate.) ... then it's an F16.... if the owner wants to be something other then F16... he should remove the F16 stickers from the sail, boat etc. It's in the class's interest to preserve their branding, tradmark and rating and they should require the sailors to abide by the rule and register as F16 if they have the stickers..

Bottom line, Even if that's what the vipers did... it will STILL be confusing/annoying to the fleet because few will notice the absence of the F16 labels on the boat. That's just the way it will be.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 05:26 PM

I KNEW Curling would come up...

I certainly watched the hot danish team.... too bad the teams figured out the camera angles as the contest went on... BUT thankfully ... IT WAS NOT MIXED!

Pairs Figure skating and Ice Dancing are simply different ... I doubt pairs men's ice dancing is going to be popular... I don't want to opine about women's ice dancing... (grin) But... I believe Will Farrell explored this issue with one of his fine documentaries.

Bottom line.. the nature of MIXED sailing... is completely different then the nature of MIXED Ice dancing.

When coed (Mixed) volleyball makes the olympics... I will drop my objection to coed Mixed sailing.

Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
I don’t think multihull sailors should accept anything short of the 5/5 proposal. The landscape has changed drastically over the last year and the Olympics now needs multihulls more than multihulls need the Olympics.

PS: Get rid of the damn 470 and you can quote me on that.


Amen... (and you are certainly qualified in every regard as to render an opinion on this matter).
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Matt M
This discussion is quickly becoming as relevant
What is frustrating is for 99.99% of the sailors I know weight has nothing to do with their performance.


I'm guessing you don't sail much in very light air, with chop, against teams that are disparately lighter in combined weight...if they are good, they can absolutely kill the heavy teams downwind.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams


The submission (097-10) we're discussing is from the Exec and based upon the Olympic Commission's report, which was vetted through the IOC. This thing has pedigree and the significant thing from our perspective is that a multihull event is expressed to be important to include. Those are facts.


Exactly. 097-10 was vetted through the IOC through the ISAF EC. Therefore, to buck that consensus could logically imperil the process and possibly entire event of Olympic sailing. If I were the IOC, I would have just about had enough with the sailing MNA's equipment agendas. At this point, a unanimous consensus solution should be advanced to the IOC, rather than continue acrimonious discussions over equipment and team composition. This may be the only path capable of both preserving the catamaran 'voice' in the discussion (and possibly the entirity of Olympic Sailing). As a community, some compromise in team composition for a mixed event seems a logical way to grow popularity, preserve the catamaran and salvage the event. I think Olympic Sailing needs the catamaran, and they need something to draw people into the spectacle. I don't think mixed teams are such a bad expedient in this regard. I am more vexed by what should be the boat selected.

For me, the question should be more about 'which cat do you think we should sail', and not about bucking the IOC and ISAF EC's recommendations.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Matt M

What is frustrating is for 99.99% of the sailors I know weight has nothing to do with their performance. 1 Tiny mistake on the course completely outweighs any weight based gains or losses they may ever be able to realize. (When was the last time anyone reading this ran the perfect race – I’m lucky if I can keep it in the groove for 10 boat lengths at a time.) Yet the discussions on this board and on the beach constantly revolve around weight. “What is optimum, oh, I’m too big to be competitive, I cannot get that boat because I’m 5kg over some number somebody posted on a forum etc…..



Matt, we are not discussing an event that will see 99.99% of the sailing public take part, we are talking about an event and hence a class for the OLYMPIC GAMES.... and at that level weights do make a big difference. Ask the T fleet from Beijing if any of them went to the games at their normal weight? Or if they think 10kg makes a difference to performance?

Consider that 10kg weight difference makes a difference at the Games level whilst sailing on a 20ft boat with its associated displacement, now have a think about the impact of 10kg on a boat that's 4ft shorter! the % is massive. Now before you go an tell me it makes no difference to 99.99% of the sailors, remember: this is the OLYMPIC GAMES.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton
I'm guessing you don't sail much in very light air, with chop, against teams that are disparately lighter in combined weight...if they are good, they can absolutely kill the heavy teams downwind.


To the contrary, I have quite a bit of experience in light stuff and chop.
I usually sail light (about 123kg) and now with my daughter 105, but I have also raced in the 160 range with no difference in finish position relative to normal.
If there is chop or especially in gusty conditions, the more weight the faster and harder you can drive the boat. Once you both hit the trap and 1 team has to depower, light weight does not mean squat. The light team has to work twice as hard to keep pace. This is downwind too, the boat is a lot better behaved and easier to drive with added weight.

My point was even with swings of 60 kg we are talking a “potential” of at most a second or 2. When I win in light stuff or lose in big stuff it is because I got beat, not because of my weight. Sailing is a big mental thing and light stuff especially. I would be willing to bet the heavy team who got their butt kicked in the light stuff was sitting still and bitching the whole time about being too heavy, where the light team was moving around and driving the boat.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Matt, we are not discussing an event that will see 99.99% of the sailing public take part, we are talking about an event and hence a class for the OLYMPIC GAMES.... and at that level weights do make a big difference. Ask the T fleet from Beijing if any of them went to the games at their normal weight? Or if they think 10kg makes a difference to performance?

Consider that 10kg weight difference makes a difference at the Games level whilst sailing on a 20ft boat with its associated displacement, now have a think about the impact of 10kg on a boat that's 4ft shorter! the % is massive. Now before you go an tell me it makes no difference to 99.99% of the sailors, remember: this is the OLYMPIC GAMES.


Macca, you're talking about the Olympics, but by inference carrying over to represent a whole class,

By your posts you seem to be promoting a boat choice based on some team weight, and that is as dumb as US sail and the other NOAs who tried to base their decision on medal count and look where that got us?
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:16 PM

We are all talking about the Olympics here, its actually the thread topic...

if we don't take the competitive team weight into account when considering a suitable boat for the games then we could end up with a situation that develops teams on the extreme end of the weight scale. That isn't good for the sport at all. Nobody wants to see emaciated teams sailing on a hobie 14 turbo, nor do we want to see 2 fat dudes try to sail an Extreme 40 (that could be funny though..)

And if you can state that your F16 is only affected by 1-2 seconds with a 60kg weight difference is just silly. We know from a lot of straight line testing and crew swapping (with top level teams) that weight does make a difference to boat speed. And that is with a whole lot less difference than 60kgs between teams!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:19 PM

Matt, seriously when was the last time you sailed at 160 kg? You act like you sail at 160kg all time, when in reality you don't sail anywhere near that heavy, ever.

Besides the one time in the states you sailed that heavy was the Mug Race which was 4 years ago and it was a drifter! Plus it was a pursuit race and your rating was nowhere near what it is now.

Come on Matt pull back the weight doesn't matter hype just a little bit.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:33 PM

I've raced the Viper at 385lbs, 175kgs, so long as there was wind we weren't punished too badly by our weight. When the wind was up, we were untouchable going to weather, and not too bad off downwind.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I KNEW Curling would come up...

I certainly watched the hot danish team.... too bad the teams figured out the camera angles as the contest went on... BUT thankfully ... IT WAS NOT MIXED!

Pairs Figure skating and Ice Dancing are simply different ... I doubt pairs men's ice dancing is going to be popular... I don't want to opine about women's ice dancing... (grin) But... I believe Will Farrell explored this issue with one of his fine documentaries.

Bottom line.. the nature of MIXED sailing... is completely different then the nature of MIXED Ice dancing.

When coed (Mixed) volleyball makes the olympics... I will drop my objection to coed Mixed sailing.



I just like to bring up these events every now and again to keep people honest. As JW has mentioned (several times), there are lots of "restrictions" and "requirements" being floated here that just aren't accurate; rather, they are personal preferences of the posters (some may be the preferences of a majority of people on this forum, but they are still not IOC requirements).

Ice Dancing (MIXED is OK)
Curling (OLD and/or FAT is OK)
Laser Sailing (OLD EQUIPMENT is OK)

Mike
Posted By: Matt M

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Matt, seriously when was the last time you sailed at 160 kg? You act like you sail at 160kg all time, when in reality you don't sail anywhere near that heavy, ever.

Besides the one time in the states you sailed that heavy was the Mug Race which was 4 years ago and it was a drifter! Plus it was a pursuit race and your rating was nowhere near what it is now.

Come on Matt pull back the weight doesn't matter hype just a little bit.


Hey, I can be the sole voice of counter reason. wink

My point is weight plays a role, but it is way overblown.

Min on a H16 is more critical. Weight on a fat hull spin boat is not nearly so much and for the majority of us non-olympians skill and luck outplays the effect of weight.

Yes I sail most events with Gina. I did the floater Mug with Dan, but a couple of others too. I did an SCCA local on the Blade with my friend Jeff who goes about 215 , You and kathy were there and I finished right about normal. I have done several GYC locals with Seth.

My experience sailing heavy is much less than light, but i can vouch that the boat drives easier with a little more weight, and this becomes even more true as the conditions get choppy or gusty.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:09 PM



Mark,

The F16 class has no power to enforce anything outside of its own events (or ones sanctioned by this class). It can not prevent boat owners from getting a separate measurement and rating and submitting that at open events (= not organised under the F16 class banner).

That is a fact of life that all Formula classes including the F18's and A's have to live with. I for one know of several Tigers that race of a different rating as the F18's. Some F18's forget to use the small suit of sails when participating in open events. For some reason nobody seems to care there, but when some Viper owner does it ... ... then the sky is falling.

You are smart enough to realize that you are asking the impossible in your earlier posting.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:21 PM

Quote

Consider that 10kg weight difference makes a difference at the Games level whilst sailing on a 20ft boat with its associated displacement, now have a think about the impact of 10kg on a boat that's 4ft shorter! the % is massive. Now before you go an tell me it makes no difference to 99.99% of the sailors, remember: this is the OLYMPIC GAMES.



Weight is very important for downhill skiing as well but no-one is campaining for 20 foot skis with corrector weights that favour 7 foot high competitors either, are they?

The event is downhill skiing and the choice of equipment is open; if you are not of the right make-up then tough luck and do something else. (by the way, are they using SMOD skis with corrector weights there ?)

So explain to me again why the equipment should actively favour "all male lardy teams" instead of lighter mixed crews ? Don't they have a right to be represented at the big O. ? Or is it that some builder doesn't have a viable boat in that particular segment ?

Life is hard and not always fair; period.

All your other spinning is just that, spinning. Whether the Tornado boat is weight sensitive or not has absolutely no predictive power with respect to the F16's. They are noticeably different designs with different overall behaviour. They don't even feel the same when sailing either of them. The experience with the F16's is however clear: the optimal weight for them is NOT 120 kg or less, no matter how many times you keep peddling that misconception.

But I'm sure you won't be deterred by this in anyway. Sure enough you are brewing on another angle to stick it to the short hulled guys; truth be damned !

Now can we get back to getting a multi back into the O. instead of restating the F20C (or F17) advertisement brochure over and over again ? Or stacking the set of requirements to favour either of these as the selection ?

Like I said earlier; if the H16 is our best ticket then by God I'll support it wholeheartedly (and that boat truly is weight sensitive grin = joke !). Of course the same should apply for other persons when for example the Viper is selected or, God forbid, the (untested) F20C.

Lets work together and try to work together as a scene and get that multi slot back !

Thanks,

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

Consider that 10kg weight difference makes a difference at the Games level whilst sailing on a 20ft boat with its associated displacement, now have a think about the impact of 10kg on a boat that's 4ft shorter! the % is massive. Now before you go an tell me it makes no difference to 99.99% of the sailors, remember: this is the OLYMPIC GAMES.



Weight is very important for downhill skiing as well but no-one is campaining for 20 foot skis that favour 7 foot high competitors either, are they?

The event is downhill skiing and the choice of equipment is open; if you are not of the right make-up then tough luck and do something else. (by the way, are they using SMOD skis with corrector weights there ?)

So explain to me again why the equipment should actively favour "all male lardy teams" instead of lighter mixed crews ? Don't they have a right to be represented at the big O. ? Or is it that some builder doesn't have a viable boat in that particular segment ?

Life is hard and not always fair; period.

All your other spinning is just that, spinning. Whether the Tornado boat is weight sensitive or not has absolutely no predictive power with respect to the F16's. They are noticeably different designs with different overall behaviour. They don't even feel the same when sailing either of them. The experience with the F16's is however clear: the optimal weight for them is NOT 120 kg or less, no matter how many times you keep peddling that misconception.

But I'm sure you won't be deterred by this in anyway. Sure enough you are brewing on another angle to stick it to the short hulled guys; truth be damned !

Now can we get back to getting a multi back into the O. instead of restating the F20C (or F17) advertisement brochure over and over again ?

Thanks,

Wouter


Wouter, you make it too easy!!!

There is a mens and womens division for downhill ski races, and its not because women's breasts give them an unfair advantage.....

To expand on your ski related example, Ski jumping has the following rule:-

"Ski jumpers below the minimum safe body mass index are penalized with a shorter maximum ski length, reducing the aerodynamic lift they can achieve. These rules have been credited with stopping the most severe cases of underweight athletes"

mmmm, thats citing a clear advantage to a weight based competitor.....

Next you will be telling me that you can be competitive at a top level on an F16 with a weight range of 120kg up to 200kg.....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:41 PM

Quote
Laser Sailing (OLD EQUIPMENT is OK)


I believe the Europe dinghy was replaced by the laser radial for women... What a downgrade that was... The Europe looked like a proper high tech boat with great foils, well made, with appropriate sail controls etc etc. I loved the way they moved through the water.

If memory serves... the ISAF wanted a POPULAR single hander... ergo the laser.

This fact makes your point. ISAF does not place a premium on a high performance boat for a particular event.

In fact... they can compromise quite a bit on performance to get mass appeal or familiarity to the world community.

I personally think the Olympic boats should be extremely high performance to make the work the sailor puts into the sport developing just a bit better sailing skill pay off with gold... ISAF and other groups would be OK if it's just a grunt contest or even a luck of the race contest when using lesser tech equipment.

Bottom line... I am very worried that the Olympic ideals that I value will be last on the list of priorities in deciding events and boats. ... But if the IOC says... bye bye to the ISAF... It will be a non issue.

Time will tell
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Ice Dancing (MIXED is OK)
Curling (OLD and/or FAT is OK)
Laser Sailing (OLD EQUIPMENT is OK)
Your first two examples are rubbish. They are part of the Winter Olympics, not the Summer ones. The two don't have the same aim in term of audience: there is not a lot of winter sport in muslim countries...
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:48 PM


Like I said in my earlier posting :

"Sure enough you are brewing on another angle to stick it to the short hulled guys; truth be damned !"

Wouter
Posted By: pepin

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 09:49 PM

I love how any discussion with Macca involved do end up in a rant about weight.

I there a psy in the room? I'm sure we could do a quick analysis of Macca's psyche to figure out which event in his youth did trigger his obsession about minimum weight.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by pepin
I love how any discussion with Macca involved do end up in a rant about weight.

I there a psy in the room? I'm sure we could do a quick analysis of Macca's psyche to figure out which event in his youth did trigger his obsession about minimum weight.


Im not the only one who understands that weights are an important part of the equation when it comes to performance at a high level. If it made no difference then why do we have a Laser and a Finn class???
Sailjuice weight analysis
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 10:30 PM

Weight is always an important issue in every Olympic sailing class. For someone who has never competed at this level it may be hard to believe but none the less it is a big issue.
Posted By: Steve_Kwiksilver

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/26/10 11:08 PM

&**** things up for sailing, and I will cheer when sailing is removed from the Olympic stage. Not because I don`t want to see sailing as an Olympic sport (I do), but because it will be the catalyst that gets all sailors behind the very necessary action of removing ISAF as the governing body of our sport.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 01:24 AM

Steve, that has to be the best post here and I agree with you completly, earlier John suggested i have a limited view, ask yourself who got it wrong in the first place, not me it was the ISAF, who canned the cats in the olympics, not me it was the ISAF, is a mixed event going to provide the greatest possible audience in the next games? definately not, the f16 and h16 are no doubt popular classes but to the general public, are these classes what they want to see, remembering the laser is the most popular class alive and as i said before it is also on the condemmed list of events from the IOC. As for the fact that the event must be chosen first is total bullocks, why select an event not knowing if you have a sutiable vessel to carry that event, i never heard so much rubbish..common sense would state that first choose a cat that will do the most to lift olympic sailing to attract the general public then choose who you want to sail it. It is the boat, how it looks, how it performs, how spetacular it is, how fast it goes, the country it represents, etc, what the general viewer looks at first, last is the persons that are sailing it, because if the crew on it isnt in the top 3 leaders from your country then they are from another country, so therefore it will be the vessel that keeps audience interested, not sailers from some other country. Vessel comes first event comes after, get it right for once!
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Vessel comes first event comes after, get it right for once!


Its nice that you feel that way, but you understand that isn't what is going to happen, right?
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Devon
Vessel comes first event comes after, get it right for once!


Its nice that you feel that way, but you understand that isn't what is going to happen, right?


Right

Some good common sense is being posted. But, as I keep saying, we have a system in place [Event committee THEN Equipment Committee] and we have to learn to manipulate it in our favour.

Maybe in years to come we will have the 'Nike size 12 100m final' or the 'Janousek coxed fours' . That commercial heaven will have to wait -for now its about the athletes!
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 03:14 AM

The most important thing about sailing at the Olympics is that we get a multihull in it. Any bloody multihull - just get it there, then the NMAs will get the OK to spend funding on our sport at our level.

After all. How great is the actual Olympic race? If we heard that the Hobie 16 world champs was duked out by a dozen boats in some backwater because it was tagged onto some big conference or other, we would say that the class had died!


That said, Weymouth and Portland is one of my favourite places to sail
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 04:25 AM

Yep i do understand, but sometimes you just gotta try, aim for gold and settle for bronze... smirk
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 02:11 PM

Paul

ANY MIXED Multihull discipline is a minimal strategy....

Have you considered the potential long term consequences?

What happens when the AC operation sucks all of the oxygen out of the room. The prestige of the Olympic multihull event is undercut by AC racing and Big multihull Distance racing. ... The sailors will never be able to raise a buck. So..

The top old multihull sailors take ANY AC opportunity over competing for one slot in the Olympics...
What happens when the junior elite sailors choose anything AC cup related over Olympic path because of funding and sex appeal..
Do you think a Mixed multihull team will be able to raise funding?...
will the public care to support what will quickly be a tiny backwater of sailing because nobody can see MIXED DOUBLES as the pinnacle of anything or a pathway to anywhere?
What happens when the MNA only spends money on Junior Mixed teams.... All events have to be Mixed..

I realize how you look at this issue depends on how much money your MNA can push to the sport.... The Brits have it pretty good... In the USA... the numbers are minimal. If Olympic Multihull sailing is viewed as trivial because MIXED is just is wrong headed, We will take a step backwards.

What we need are TWO events.. Men's and Women's These events would be the Pinnacle of the sport for one and two man teams... No question! IF you have to compromise... One Open event is workable.

Of course.. you believe the IOC will be so thrilled with Weymouth... that they will keep funding the ISAF to keep sailing in the games...

What do you know that we don't!
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 02:49 PM

Do you think the female public will be more likely to checkout/watch mixed Multihull vs male team?
Do you think the public can tell the difference between the modern Tornado, F18, or F16 from a distance, or on the tube?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 03:59 PM

While I too see the 5 and 5 proposal as the best path for the future, it sounds like the MNAs (and therefore ISAF) aren't going to support this.

So, the potential is there for a mixed event to be a real contender. I don't see mixed as being a step backwards, a poor compromise, or anything else like that. It is a REAL part of REAL sailing, not just in cats. For example, the junior 420 programs are full of mixed teams (it's one of the carrots that gets teen boys off of Optis and away from Lasers).

I could be wrong, but I just don't see MNAs looking at the AC as justification to add more multihull events to the Olympics. In their minds, they're probably still thinking (or at least hoping) that this will be a temporary hiccup in the AC history (just a little longer than one DoG cycle), and that eventually, BMWO will lose, or the match racing will not be spectacular enough, and the next cycle will return to monohulls.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 04:06 PM


Quote
Do you think the female public will be more likely to checkout/watch mixed Multihull vs male team?


Not particularly..

Watching sailing is the big issue. Selling tickets to the events is a problem.. it's hard to watch a sailboat race sitting on a spectator boat .... Finding a way to video the action is a problem.... Not to mention doing this in a way that does not chop up the water with powerboat slop.

This is the eight ball that all of Olympic sailing is behind.... Minimally, everyone recognizes that cats' and skiffs look more action packed then stars and lasers. Hopefully they solve the video and spectator problem by England's games with the 49ner... otherwise... I bet the IOC says... see ya! It's expensive and few people seem to care.

Quote

Do you think the public can tell the difference between the modern Tornado, F18, or F16 from a distance, or on the tube?


Nope...

But what they do understand is the nature of the team and the flag on the sails and the action they see.

You tune in to the Olympics to watch whatever sport is on... to see the best there is for two weeks ... You don't want an explanation to go along with the event. ... So... you tune in to watch the best multihull sailors in the world... OPEN or MEN's and Women's Events hit the mark... Mixed Events.... requires an explanation...This is even clearer WHEN OTHER OLYMPIC SAILING EVENTS are Men's and Women's.

If you think back to the IOC accepting Tennis as an Olympic sport... One of the big issues for the Pro tennis circuit was... Would the top pro's compete.. If MIXED Sailing does not get the top Multihull sailors in the world...The sport will be pitched.

You can SELL OPEN.. you can't sell MIXED.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 04:15 PM

Mike

They play mixed doubles at the USTA Open ... They don't play mixed doubles at the Olympics... WHY?

When you undercut the fundamental ideal of the Olympics ... eg... THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD>.. for political reasons of your governing body... WHY should the IOC keep your sport?

Mixed Multihulls could turn out to be the largest Pyrrhic victory since the Greeks.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 05:31 PM

You've been in the Doom Bunker with Colbert too long, Mark.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 06:06 PM

He he...

Just saving all of this for my... I TOLD YOU.. rant.

But... I will be very happy to be proven wrong....

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole in the arugment... hey.. it's politial season and I am addled with all of the noise on TV.

So I have given 20 reasons why this Mixed idea is a disaster..

Best I have from the pro mixed side ... IS... we are probably back in.... and it's what we could do.... lots of women race on Hobie 16's..... lots of sailing is actually mixed.

Weak tea... and in the Tea Party Era... you should have something a bit more inspiring..... SELL ME ON MIXED!
Convince me to drink the koolaid!
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 06:11 PM

<**** things up for sailing, and I will cheer when sailing is removed from the Olympic stage. Not because I don`t want to see sailing as an Olympic sport (I do), but because it will be the catalyst that gets all sailors behind the very necessary action of removing ISAF as the governing body of our sport.


Your urine test came back tainted with malaise and cynicism. laugh Recalling the past, it is easy to blame ISAF. However, if I can get a little sanctimonious, nothing is ever gained by expecting the worst from people and organizations. In fact, some of the fairest and learned behavior may be expected from people who made recent mistakes. I feel this may be one of those cases and we probably should be building consensus rather than re-hashing bygones.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
He he...
Best I have from the pro mixed side ... IS... we are probably back in.... and it's what we could do s SELL ME ON MIXED!


How's this:

IOC may possibly eliminate all sailing events unless these events make up some popular ground on capturing a youthful spectacle of athleticism for the sailing event. Making ground on these goals should include the IOC/ISAF recommendation of a mixed catamaran event as specified in ISAF 097-10.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
You've been in the Doom Bunker with Colbert too long, Mark.


Bwwwaaahhh hahahahah. Man, I wish I could make it to DC this weekend.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 07:38 PM

Are you kidding me?

ISAF better solve the video and attendance problem at Weymouth for this cycle 2012. the 49ner guys better be good looking and talkative on TV. Hopefully the Brits are making money and can afford tickets to Olympic Sailing.

THEN ISAF better have a portfolio of events and boats that leverage the boards and 49nr's success at Weymouth... and the big sell for ISAF .. This is what's planned for 2016.... keep us in the games.

The headwinds are.. 35 year old babes in Elliots . 55 year old guys on Stars.. .. I don't think so.
mixed doubles sailing on a small cat.... I REALLY don't think so.

Otherwise... there is no 2016! Take a look at the budgets... IOC will and for what they spend on sailing... they will try other sports in the games.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 07:48 PM

I bet we could agree if the teams consisted of two beautiful ladies. The equipment choice becomes moot at that point.

Simple. Problem solved.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
I bet we could agree if the teams consisted of two beautiful ladies. The equipment choice becomes moot at that point.

Simple. Problem solved.


Absolutely not!!!!!!!! Bikinis will be mandatory equipment! grin
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 08:57 PM

Is there any particular reason why we are only debating male or female and one or two-handed?

If we want to show the world exciting sailing with the opportunity for mounting lots of cameras and audio links..
How about VX40???

Or come up with a Quad trapeze 30 footer that is wildly over-canvased and can be simply made under license anywhere in the world.

Proper national teams of sailors sailing powerful boats.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 09:10 PM

too lazy to read all this diatribe. Did we settle on individual men's/women's A-cat fleet sailing for the IOC?

The olympics want young, cute kids breaking records. I would figure almost all of the people posting about this do not qualify under these criteria.

Since when did sailing become a spectator sport? The ratings for curling were higher (I think I just threw up a little...)
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/27/10 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
I bet we could agree if the teams consisted of two beautiful ladies. The equipment choice becomes moot at that point.

Simple. Problem solved.




Absolutely not!!!!!!!! Bikinis will be mandatory equipment! grin


Just like beach volleyball!
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 01:27 AM

Well, Least Not Forget..So far John you have NOT been able to come up with a shred of evidence that what the ISAF propose is the right way to go...Where as we have been barraged by an enormous amount of common sense and good understandable reasoning as to why the current path the ISAF is on, will not be what the IOC need to keep sailing in the olympics, you have not even been able to propose what multihull the ISAF wish to select, because clearly you and the ISAF dont have a clue if there is even a sutiable one there..OMG! you have to be kidding us...I honestly respect your responses and understand where you are coming from, but please take a moment and remove the formal attire put on a spray vest and see it from a cat sailers perspective..Is there any way we can get you to convince the ISAF that they are going in the wrong direction befor it is too late?
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Steve_Kwiksilver

the IOC asked ISAF not to have heavy and lightweight divisions of similar events, ie the finn and laser are both single-handed mens dinghy events, the only difference being the weight categories these two classes promote.

Yet ISAF chose to lose the multihull (high speed and excitement that IOC asked for) so they could keep both Finn & Laser


Precisely, and those facts must be used wisely.

Multihull equipment can be "sold" as a viable solution for typical Finn sailors to participate in the games, with the goal to change the way ISAF sees multihulls.

Now we are a nuisance, an issue, but we could be seen as a way to comply with IOC requirements, while at the same time circumventing their aversion for weight differentiated events.

A multihull event can be seen as a solution to keep the door opened for the best dinghy sailors in the games - and Finn sailors are the most experienced, older and heavier dinghy sailors (or so they say).

How? Very easy.
Spread the word that, if a multihull event is included, a criteria will be supported for the trials specifying "adequacy to a crew weight between XX and YY", XX and YY being the Finn's ideal crew weight range - make it slightly less than double that range for a double handed cat.

If trials are held with this criteria, the "ideal" boat would probably be more powerful than an A Cat or Tornado, "with the purpose of increasing speed, atractiveness as well as technical skill and athletic requirements".

As most (or all) here, I couldn't care less if it favors or excludes any existing, proposed or dreamed boat - provided it helps bring multihulls back in Rio 2016.

Cheers,
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 02:58 AM

Devon, I've asserted several times that the mixed multihull event was part of the ISAF Olympic Commission's strategy that was vetted through the IOC, who began supporting mixed sports in 1995. If the insiders are telling us that this is the path to an Olympic multihull event, and we want to play in their reindeer games, then we ought to listen.

I made the case to the Council for focusing on other events in multihull sailing shortly after the Estoril vote, but the sailors want the Olympics. Nobody could have foreseen how things would change in the few years since, culminating in Ellison's declaration of revolution. If we don't get an event, we have lots else to occupy ourselves - while Weymouth showcases dinghies, we'll be enjoying three major World Championships here in the US.

But the die is cast for next week. After this thread, I am personally more convinced that a mixed multihull will showcase our niche of the sport very nicely. The arguments against mixed focus on red herrings, advocacy for specific equipment, straw man misdirection, and outright sexism. If anyone thinks that a mixed team can't sail a high performance cat at the pinnacle of the sport, I'd say they need to get out more, try some different classes, and not make it about themselves and the sailing they do or have done. Ask yourself why you want an Olympic multihull, and if it truly is an altruistic motivation, then what should it matter which boat as long as the "exciting, telegenic, high-performance" criteria are met?

We told the OSC that we wanted them to vote in the interest of the sport, not in the interest of the medal count. I think they followed through. We have more two-man, heavy teams than most countries - if OSC wanted to stack the deck, they'd only push for a men's multihull. That's where our medals are! Two dudes! Instead, I think OSC has taken the Olympic Commission's lead.

Looking back through this thread, I still don't see the women's perspective offered. Maybe they think the debate is silly, or maybe they don't pore over this site like the men do. I know what some Olympic women think... I know what my daughter's sailing coach thinks.

It is fine to disagree and I'm not sitting here at my desk with the objective of changing anyone's mind. My mission and my hope is to see a multihull event reinstated - if the wind blows us toward a mixed event, then that's where my advocacy will go. If the political wrangling moves us toward open, I'll do what I can to keep the scales tipped our way. If 5/5 makes some sort of zombie comeback, I'll do my best to convince the OSC that we can compete.

I get accused of being naïve all the time, and I'm often described as a hopeless optimist. This thread's turned into a bummer, but I'm trying hard to see the glass half-full; we have a good shot, and while the evaluation of equipment may be divisive and difficult, if nothing else, it will be exciting. It is a good time to be a cat sailor.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 04:44 AM

Recommend we support John William's position.
Caleb Tarleton
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I've raced the Viper at 385lbs, 175kgs, so long as there was wind we weren't punished too badly by our weight. When the wind was up, we were untouchable going to weather, and not too bad off downwind.


I sailed my Capricorn at 186kg initially before getting down to 164kg. The heavier we were, the more it hurt us even in a blow. Upwind we saw minimal loss when fully powered up but we were still displacing more water. Our main was cut with a bit more depth to give us extra power, something an OD class does not have the luxury of. Downwind, windy or light, we could not get the same depth as the guys running close to the 150kg min weight.

When it is close racing and equal skill level, weight DOES play a big role.

Originally Posted by Wouter

So explain to me again why the equipment should actively favour "all male lardy teams" instead of lighter mixed crews ? .........................
The experience with the F16's is however clear: the optimal weight for them is NOT 120 kg or less, no matter how many times you keep peddling that misconception.


I personally believe the F16s ideal weight would be more around the 130kg mark. 150kg is not “Lardy”, that is 2 x 75kg men. I would imagine a target combined weight for mixed would be about 135kg (75kg male, 60kg female) and for all female, 120kg (2 x 60kg)

If mixed is the go, then the Viper would be the perfect choice.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
If anyone thinks that a mixed team can't sail a high performance cat at the pinnacle of the sport, I'd say they need to get out more, try some different classes, and not make it about themselves and the sailing they do or have done.


I have no doubt a mixed Multihull team could sail a HP cat, but I do doubt the depth of talent. I guess if the discipline is created, then we may see more female involvement including some class jumping from monos, which would not be a bad thing

Another option may be to create male and female disciplines on one man/woman boats. This will not increase the athlete quota.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 12:46 PM

Guys / John, did the IOC state that the mixed event has to be in a multihull or did they just state that the ISAF had to include a mixed event and it was the ISAF that decided that it will be in a multihull? John personally I dont think this thread has turned into a bummer, It has given club cat sailers the oppertunity to express themselves and their opinions, to share others thoughts and ideas, it certainly hasnt degenerated into a slinging match, although we may have different opinions it dosent mean either of us is wrong, and I for one have valued your imput, along with others here..
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Devon, I've asserted several times that the mixed multihull event was part of the ISAF Olympic Commission's strategy that was vetted through the IOC, who began supporting mixed sports in 1995. If the insiders are telling us that this is the path to an Olympic multihull event, and we want to play in their reindeer games, then we ought to listen.

I made the case to the Council for focusing on other events in multihull sailing shortly after the Estoril vote, but the sailors want the Olympics. Nobody could have foreseen how things would change in the few years since, culminating in Ellison's declaration of revolution. If we don't get an event, we have lots else to occupy ourselves - while Weymouth showcases dinghies, we'll be enjoying three major World Championships here in the US.

But the die is cast for next week. After this thread, I am personally more convinced that a mixed multihull will showcase our niche of the sport very nicely. The arguments against mixed focus on red herrings, advocacy for specific equipment, straw man misdirection, and outright sexism. If anyone thinks that a mixed team can't sail a high performance cat at the pinnacle of the sport, I'd say they need to get out more, try some different classes, and not make it about themselves and the sailing they do or have done. Ask yourself why you want an Olympic multihull, and if it truly is an altruistic motivation, then what should it matter which boat as long as the "exciting, telegenic, high-performance" criteria are met?

We told the OSC that we wanted them to vote in the interest of the sport, not in the interest of the medal count. I think they followed through. We have more two-man, heavy teams than most countries - if OSC wanted to stack the deck, they'd only push for a men's multihull. That's where our medals are! Two dudes! Instead, I think OSC has taken the Olympic Commission's lead.

Looking back through this thread, I still don't see the women's perspective offered. Maybe they think the debate is silly, or maybe they don't pore over this site like the men do. I know what some Olympic women think... I know what my daughter's sailing coach thinks.

It is fine to disagree and I'm not sitting here at my desk with the objective of changing anyone's mind. My mission and my hope is to see a multihull event reinstated - if the wind blows us toward a mixed event, then that's where my advocacy will go. If the political wrangling moves us toward open, I'll do what I can to keep the scales tipped our way. If 5/5 makes some sort of zombie comeback, I'll do my best to convince the OSC that we can compete.

I get accused of being naïve all the time, and I'm often described as a hopeless optimist. This thread's turned into a bummer, but I'm trying hard to see the glass half-full; we have a good shot, and while the evaluation of equipment may be divisive and difficult, if nothing else, it will be exciting. It is a good time to be a cat sailor.


+1
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 01:33 PM

"This thread's turned into a bummer"

Nonsense! It's some of the best work you,JW and Mark have produced.

ALL this chatter is good stuff, absolutely essential to the democratic process.

The next step is to follow-up on Caleb's suggestion. Put your thoughts together in a formalized motion and call for a vote. Even if it is the most informal of straw ballots, you will have a sampling of opinion to take to USS, IOC or anyone else.

At the very least you'd have something to counter the arguments of any late comers to the debate.

Perhaps Mr. White could be prevailed upon to conduct a straw ballot?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 01:53 PM

There is a big machine in place that determines what events and classes are in the Olympics (ISAF). It is a heavy machine that is hard to move. It has many moving parts. We (multihull sailors) are a small part of that old machine - we certainly don't own it and we have control over very little of it right, wrong, or indifferent.

The machine has provided a square hole, a round hole, a star shaped hole, a triangle hole, and a rectangular hole for the Olympics. The machine has identified that it/we need a rectangle hole (mixed class) and they don't currently have an event that fits it. All the other holes already have events in them. We have a choice to A) beat out one of the other pegs that is already in a hole or B) shape our peg to fit the open hole.

We have about a 5% chance (or less) to beat out one of the other pegs and gain that opening (Option A) or an 80% chance if we form our own peg to fit that open rectangular hole (Option B)....which is a mixed Olympic event. John is right to ask us to help shape the rectangular peg - otherwise, we're not going to get a slot again.

PS - quit arguing about the color of the peg. We're working on getting an event in the slot and get back in the show. We'll worry about the color of the peg later.

Yes, all I've had is coffee this morning.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
There is a big machine in place that determines what events and classes are in the Olympics (ISAF). It is a heavy machine that is hard to move. It has many moving parts. We (multihull sailors) are a small part of that old machine - we certainly don't own it and we have control over very little of it right, wrong, or indifferent.

The machine has provided a square hole, a round hole, a star shaped hole, a triangle hole, and a rectangular hole for the Olympics. The machine has identified that it/we need a rectangle hole (mixed class) and they don't currently have an event that fits it. All the other holes already have events in them. We have a choice to A) beat out one of the other pegs that is already in a hole or B) shape our peg to fit the open hole.

We have about a 5% chance (or less) to beat out one of the other pegs and gain that opening (Option A) or an 80% chance if we form our own peg to fit that open rectangular hole (Option B)....which is a mixed Olympic event. John is right to ask us to help shape the rectangular peg - otherwise, we're not going to get a slot again.

PS - quit arguing about the color of the peg. We're working on getting an event in the slot and get back in the show. We'll worry about the color of the peg later.

Yes, all I've had is coffee this morning.


Gibberish and condescending gibberish at that. Have some breakfast. Take a deep breath...

How do you propose we "help" John?
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by H17cat
Recommend we support John William's position.
Caleb Tarleton


I support John William's position. Keep up the good work. (Given the history of this issue, looking for the bad guy hiding in the drapes with the blunt object should be expected. Don't let the cynicism get to you.)
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Devon
Guys / John, did the IOC state that the mixed event has to be in a multihull or did they just state that the ISAF had to include a mixed event and it was the ISAF that decided that it will be in a multihull?


Excerpted from ISAF submission 097-10, ISAF changes supporting that a mixed gender multihull event for 2016.:

2-person Mixed Multi-hull Event
• The Commission supports the inclusion of multi-hull as Olympic Equipment as a Mixed Event. Mixed would reflect much of current global participation, and would provide a single-step pathway from the open multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds to the Olympics. The Commission recommends Equipment trials to select an inexpensive, modern, one-design multihull suitable for elite Mixed sailing that can be expected to become globally available in one to two years. The following paragraphs provide additional commentary on the recommendation for Mixed.
• Gender-based Olympic sailing Events have been introduced gradually, starting 1988, as sailing’s Open Events were being almost exclusively competed for by men due to the men’s strength-to-weight advantage. 2012 will be the first Olympics at which sailing has no Open
Events.
• The gender-based Events introduced were Men and Women, not Mixed. However outside Olympic sailing, a lot of 2-person sailing is Mixed – especially 2-person dinghies and 2-person multi-hull. The Olympic Commission believes that Mixed offers sailing some significant advantages and should be included in the Olympic programme for selected two 2-person Events:

a. it allows sailing to include more types of equipment in its 10 Events;
b. it better reflects sailing as it is practised globally in many parts of the world;
c. it highlights and promotes a key media-appealing differentiator of the sport;
d. it ensures not only gender equality on number of Events, but also number of athletes.

• Including Mixed Multi-hull is seen as the most advantageous way to re-introduce multi-hull into the Olympic Sailing Competition. It provides a natural pathway from the Open Multi-hull event at the ISAF Youth Worlds, and can be expected to increase the proportion of that fleet that sails Mixed at that event. Examining the other options:

a. no multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that 2-person multi-hull racing should be included
in the Olympic Sailing Competition. It is an inexpensive and exciting branch of the sport that is accessible to most nations and a relatively wide range of sailor physiques, and tests a particular sailing skill;

b. men-only multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes it would be wrong, as sailing seeks to move towards gender equality, to introduce a new Event as
men-only, especially when the event is Open at the ISAF Youth Worlds;

c. men and women multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that there is not currently sufficient Women-only multi-hull racing taking place globally to merit one of sailing’s 10 Olympic Events. It might also fail to meet the IOC requirement (practised in 35 countries on 3 continents). The Commission believes that new Olympic
Events should reflect sailing that is already an established part of the sport.

• The Commission does not support the view that Mixed is “not a discipline” or “not elite”. Sailing already has a Mixed Event (the 2-Person event in the Paralympics), and the IOC has added mixed tennis for 2012. Multi-hull is currently sailed Mixed by many sailors in many elite competitions – for instance the 2010 Tornado Class World Championships was won by a Mixed crew, as was the 2009 ISAF Youth Worlds multi-hull event. Furthermore, if multi-hull is only Mixed in the Olympics, this Mixed competition will become the premier, elite multi-hull dinghy event, and will provide additional value and differentiation to multi-hull sailing.

• In its 10th December 2009 press release on mixed tennis, the IOC stated: “The inclusion of tennis mixed doubles event ... will bring an added value to the Olympic programme by
providing another opportunity for men and women to compete together on the same field of play.” Mixed sailing will offer similar added value to the IOC.

• The Commission acknowledges that Mixed sailing is not currently common in some countries’ 2-person dinghy sailing – but Olympic decisions influence grass-roots sailing, and the Commission believes that this would change if Mixed is adopted. The Commission has not identified any nations that are today strong in multi-hull sailing that do not have Mixed sailing.

Mixed is also popular in other sports. For instance Badminton supports Mixed Doubles at all age levels, with Eastern Asia dominant. Badminton’s 2010 World Junior Championships had
Mixed Doubles entrants from every continent, and the number of entrants for Mixed Doubles was significantly more than for Boy’s or Girl’s Doubles.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton
Originally Posted by H17cat
Recommend we support John William's position.
Caleb Tarleton


I support John William's position. Keep up the good work. (Given the history of this issue, looking for the bad guy hiding in the drapes with the blunt object should be expected. Don't let the cynicism get to you.)


+1
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 03:10 PM

Roger on the blunt object.

Devon and Pete, the "bummer" is that the equipment side of the issue drives us apart, and the proposal of a mixed event has pushed the equipment to the forefront. I understand it and I anticipated it, but was surprised at its vehemence.

In addition to Submission 097-10 that Rex posted above, the inclusion of a mixed multihull event in the second round of voting was discussed with IOC prior to the August deadline, and was part of a meeting agenda back in September - Bob Merrick posted a link to a good Sail World article back at the beginning of this thread. That meeting is well above my pay grade, so I don't know what specifically was discussed, but the scuttlebutt is that the IOC and ISAF left the table with an understanding and agreement on approach and methodology. In the US Delegation meeting, I raised the concern that the mixed designation was potentially a poison pill and asked why we thought mixed would fly. I got assurances from six different directions that it was the way to go, with one of the lead reasons being that "open" is code for "men's" and "mixed" fit better the US position of increasing women's participation. The OSC, with input from cat sailors and Olympians, believes now that we can be competitive in the proposed event, which is the criterion for them to recommend to the Delegation and the Board to support it. Remember, the OSC's job is to determine events where we can medal, and develop the overall Olympic sailing program (and yes, that is the order that they do it, maddening as it is). The Delegation is tasked by ISAF to do what is best for the sport, though it surely seems that MNAs vote their medal interests over the "good of the sport" to me... or we'd not be looking for a way back into the Games.

So that is how the stage is currently set. Pete, a straw poll would be interesting, but won't sample a large enough portion of the relevant population - how many distinct sailors are represented in this thread? Ten? A dozen? I'm happy to participate in a poll, but it should be understood that the resulting data would be limited in use and might not be actionable. But still interesting.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Jake
There is a big machine in place that determines what events and classes are in the Olympics (ISAF). It is a heavy machine that is hard to move. It has many moving parts. We (multihull sailors) are a small part of that old machine - we certainly don't own it and we have control over very little of it right, wrong, or indifferent.

The machine has provided a square hole, a round hole, a star shaped hole, a triangle hole, and a rectangular hole for the Olympics. The machine has identified that it/we need a rectangle hole (mixed class) and they don't currently have an event that fits it. All the other holes already have events in them. We have a choice to A) beat out one of the other pegs that is already in a hole or B) shape our peg to fit the open hole.

We have about a 5% chance (or less) to beat out one of the other pegs and gain that opening (Option A) or an 80% chance if we form our own peg to fit that open rectangular hole (Option B)....which is a mixed Olympic event. John is right to ask us to help shape the rectangular peg - otherwise, we're not going to get a slot again.

PS - quit arguing about the color of the peg. We're working on getting an event in the slot and get back in the show. We'll worry about the color of the peg later.

Yes, all I've had is coffee this morning.


Gibberish and condescending gibberish at that. Have some breakfast. Take a deep breath...

How do you propose we "help" John?


Well, if that isn't the pot....

We help John by supporting the mixed fleet proposal since he is our voice in the matter. The point I was trying to make is that with the size and complexity of this issue, if we insist on doing it "our way" by either choosing the class before the event or not utilizing the opportunity of the identified ISAF need for a mixed class as leverage, we greatly reduce our opportunity to get a multihull back into the Olympics.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 03:42 PM

John,

I know it's probably too late for a change, and thoroughly agree with what you posted. But, I just had an interesting thought.

It's clear that, maybe because of the 5 and 5 plan, some thought went into two multihull events, one for men, one for women. Besides the reasons given in the submission above, it is pretty clear that women did not want a multihull discipline, as the female Olympic sailors (or at least their reps) were looking for match racing, etc. So, we've been dwindled to one multihull event.

Can you tell us if anyone considered this approach?

Two multihull events, one singlehanded (men or open) and one doublehanded mixed.

If this was discussed, were they just afraid that they'd only get one, and wanted to be in the position to present the one they favored?

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 03:44 PM

JW/Jake I don't which of you two is more exasperating!?

JW- I doubt there is as much vehemance as you imagine. The straw ballot gives you a chance to judge.

A straw ballot costs you nothing, obliges you to nothing but forces the opposing parties to take a stand. In any of our politcal conventions there are multiple ballots before a candidate is selected.

What you are trying to do is establish a platform (pun intended). That would normally be done in committee but can be done just as well here.

You're on the right track, you're almost there. Just push a little harder for a committment.

Jake- everytime you get frustrated you retreat into the world of engineering. This is not an engineering problem, mechanical analogies will not suffice. This is NOT a contraption. It is a socio/political debate. You, hopefully, are trying to move others to your point of view. You need to bring out the salesman in you and send the engineer home for a nap.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 03:54 PM

I just re-read the Sail World article. Remind me why Team Racing isn't one of the paths forward? If properly produced, nothing is more compelling to watch, even if they use slow boats.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
JW/Jake I don't which of you two is more exasperating!?

JW- I doubt there is as much vehemance as you imagine. The straw ballot gives you a chance to judge.

A straw ballot costs you nothing, obliges you to nothing but forces the opposing parties to take a stand. In any of our politcal conventions there are multiple ballots before a candidate is selected.

What you are trying to do is establish a platform (pun intended). That would normally be done in committee but can be done just as well here.

You're on the right track, you're almost there. Just push a little harder for a committment.

Jake- everytime you get frustrated you retreat into the world of engineering. This is not an engineering problem, mechanical analogoies will not suffice. This is NOT a contraption. It is a socio/political debate. You, hopefully, are trying to move others to your point of view. You need to bring out the salesman in you and send the engineer home for a nap.


Many here are having difficulty grasping the situation so I tried to put it in mechanical terms. Reason and explanation weren't cutting it already.

...And I think JW was pretty clear that he didn't think a poll would hurt anything. I'll be glad to take part....but the poll ignores the political situation of the issue. Personally, I would like to see a big double handed "open" spin boat as the Olympic boat but I don't think we have much chance of getting ANY spot if that's what we try to push right now. Make a poll. I'll vote in it...but we don't have visibility of all the people and organizations that are pushing elsewhere. Even in the off chance we could agree here on what we want to see in the Olympics, significant compromises would most certainly have to be made in order to increase our overall chances of getting an Olympic spot. I trust JW and the few souls helping to do that in the best interest of our sport.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 05:23 PM

yes its called a D class.. hell even a C would work..
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
[quote=pgp] I trust JW and the few souls helping to do that in the best interest of our sport.


+1

We already have Caleb, Rex, myself and you in support of JW's position.

All we need do is have JW restate his position, just so everyone is on the same page, and ask for those willing to support him. The vote is already 4-0.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 06:29 PM

I support JW too. (if that means anything)

Wouter
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 06:42 PM

having a really dull evening so I looked through the submissions for the ISAF meeting next month

http://www.sailing.org/2010-conference.php

The big document,as has been highlighted is 097-10 from the events committee, which is very much in favour of the MIXED multihull.
There is also provision for this meeting to make decisions on Events AND equipement for 2016.

Looking at the other submissions...

the following are still proposing the 5x2 plan
French sailing Fed
US sailing
F18, Dart 18 and Tornado assocs

The following strongly recommend multihull inclusion...
Sail Oman
RSA sailing

the F18 class want a mens 20 footer and womens 16 footer

The RYA [GBR] are only worried about womens skiffs



I stand corrected on a lot of my previous postings!
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/28/10 10:43 PM

From Sail World http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?Nid=76271&refre=y&ntid=20&rid=4
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 12:28 AM



I liked that one as well. The whole "core event" thing really smells like BS.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
I liked that one as well.


Just perfect:

Quote

The logical consequence to the Olympic Commissions report can only be to select:

  • 1 Person Dinghy Men and Women
  • 2 Person Skiff Men and Women
  • Windsurfer Men and Women
  • Kiteboard Men and Women
  • Multihull (Men and Women)



Trials to choose the equipment would probably result in:

- Devotti One (too bad the Moth is not one design)
- 49er
- RSX (or another formula)
- IODK (International One Design Kite - to be invented)
- Supercat 22 OD
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 04:25 AM

I think the Moth can work as a One Design, just put it to tender and select a builder for a set period.

49er, perfect. for both Men and Women (maybe a smaller rig for the girls)

RSX... jury is still out on the RSX, maybe another trial to select suitable equipment?

Kite... I'm just not sure what the event is meant to be, is it racing or doing tricks?

Supercat 22, ummm.... I really dont understand this one at all! Its not OD, not modern at all, and freaking massive for 2 Women!
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by macca


I'm just not sure what the event is meant to be, is it racing or doing tricks?


Yeah, what kind of tosser takes a racing bit of kit and goes out and does tricks on it??? crazy

I don't think that you get Luiz's sense of humour either!
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 05:46 AM

Maybe we should have F20 as a event, but score the tricks?? smile

Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 06:35 AM


Some one has been reading my posts, sorry John but you have my respect but not my support, by the time we get to 2016 olympics the tornado will be pushing 40 years old..
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 07:06 AM

Correcting myself: Tornado designed in 1967 if it enters the 2016 olympics it will be 49 years old. Hate to say it but it is looking its age, sewing a square top on a pinhead just dosent cop it!
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 09:44 AM

Have you sailed a modern carbon rig Marstrom. I will tell you now there are VERY few boats on the water that feel as refined and efficient to sail as one. Even by todays standards, they rate as close to the best beach cat around. It opened my eyed up when I went from a Reg White to a Marstrom. Chalk and cheese.

33 years old and WAY ahead of it's time. Few have caught up.

There is a reason why the worlds best cat sailors ejoy going back to the Tornado.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/29/10 12:33 PM

Sadly No I have not had the good fortune to sail a mastron, mine was also a reg white, saw a picture of it 2 days ago competing in the around dunk island race at mission beach, You can bet Mastron are talking to the ISAF at the moment, but who knows if they are still keen to push the Tornado or the M20 now that it (seems) that a vessel may also be selected along with the event, how interesting..I gotta say although i am more than happy sailing my Aussie Inter 17 one up, I felt way more in control in the Tornado in the heavy airs..often i would sail out over the horizon, cruise with the dolphins and turn around only to just make out the mountain range from where i had come. Next month I will go in a charity fundraiser sail4palsy 6 days sailing fron Cairns to Townsville, cant wait!
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 04:16 AM

The IOC has proposed the Hobie 16 become the youth worlds preffered cat, to be used as a leeder to the Olympic mixed cat, all the chat is the Tornado will be reserected, now is the time to buy a cheap Tornado, the price will go up real fast if it is selected..
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 06:45 AM

which proposal is that?
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 11:17 AM

http://www.multihull2016.com/downloads/09710EventandEquipment2016Olympics-[9390].pdf

3rd page it has the hobie highlighted, but no olympic cat, it is the only section not with a selection yet, but if they want a 16 footer as a leeder to the olympics then its gotta be a f18 or bigger for the olympics
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 12:41 PM

Thats the 097-10 submission. Its been made by the ISAF executive committee for consideration of their events and equipment committees BASED on their interpretation of the IOC guidelines. IOC won't recommend to ISAF what they should recommend back to the IOC

The sL16 is highlighted as much as the Hobie 16, because they are the current youth boat[s]
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 03:17 PM

Then it dosent appear that the ISAF will change that or it would have been left blank also, unless they are planning on changing the current youth boats, i cant imagine a change in youth cats but who knows, its a good hint of what is coming
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG

The sL16 is highlighted as much as the Hobie 16, because they are the current youth boat[s]


While in Istambul, I asked the head of the SL16 factory team if they could guaranty that the SL16 will remain the youth cat. He said yes, at least for the next two Youth Worlds.
Posted By: macca

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/30/10 07:49 PM

One observation from 097-10:-

"men and women multi-hull: this is not supported as the Commission believes that there is not currently sufficient Women-only multi-hull racing taking place globally to merit one of sailing’s 10 Olympic Events. It might also fail to meet the IOC requirement (practised in 35 countries on 3 continents). The Commission believes that new Olympic Events should reflect sailing that is already an established part of the sport.
• The Commission does not support the view that Mixed is “not a discipline” or “not elite”. Sailing already has a Mixed Event (the 2-Person event in the Paralympics), and the IOC has added mixed tennis for 2012. Multi-hull is currently sailed Mixed by many sailors in many elite competitions – for instance the 2010 Tornado Class World Championships was won by a Mixed crew, as was the 2009 ISAF Youth Worlds multi-hull event. Furthermore, if multi-hull is only Mixed in the Olympics, this Mixed competition will become the premier, elite multi-hull dinghy event, and will provide additional value and differentiation to multi-hull sailing."




So, they state that there isn't enough Women's only multihull sailing around the world to meet the IOC criteria of 35 countries on 3 continents, so they are clearly ignoring the H16 womens champs???

But can anyone tell me if there is ONE country in the world that has a mixed multihull champs??

They even state here that if they create mixed multihull as an even then it will become the premier category of multihull sailing, yet as per the IOC criteria its not even a valid category at the moment!!
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 10/31/10 03:20 AM

Kinda contradicts what the IOC are wanting, I say open event for the best chance of sucess, and that is the only event that meets the IOC requirments then, what are your thoughts John
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/05/10 07:02 PM

Interesting tweet from an Olympic sailor, catsailor, and if I remember correctly a member of the ISAF (IOC?) athletes-commitee.

http://twitter.com/#!/marcelien/status/581878172094464

"Still debating @ISAF AC meeting: so we are not okay on mixed teams.
Long talk but in the end it's not suitable for 'professional' sailing."
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/05/10 07:28 PM

Wow. Just, wow...

I mean, really? Wow...

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/06/10 06:03 AM

That's from someone on the Athlete's Council... this is coming from the 470 contingient which is solidly not in favor of getting a 'mixed' designation - interesting to note that it is led by older men. The women on the AC are NOT in lock-step.

Discussion of mixed in the Multihull meeting yesterday was much more positive. While mixed is certainly seen as a compromise, and we're still much more supportive of a men's and a women's event, the majority feel that by achieving mixed for 2016 we address the criticism against a women's event for the future; namely that there are few women skippers. Once a mixed multihull is in the Games, we are likely to predominantly see the men on the front of the boat.
Posted By: catman

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/06/10 07:13 AM

I think I have found a way to to make the mixed boat idea work. We just incorporate this "sport" with sailing.

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2010/02/25/should-pole-dancing-be-an-olympic-sport/

There's a pole (mast). This would solve the viewing problem. What could better to watch than a cat screaming downwind in 20kts with some girl doing moves on the mast.

Just curious, are we going to have a mixed 100 yard dash, basketball, etc.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/06/10 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
That's from someone on the Athlete's Council... this is coming from the 470 contingient which is solidly not in favor of getting a 'mixed' designation - interesting to note that it is led by older men. The women on the AC are NOT in lock-step.

Are we talking about the same commitee? I dont see a lot of older men on that board:
http://www.sailing.org/committees/2009-2012/athletes-commission.php

Not sure where u get the "470 contingient" info from, there is only one 470 sailor on that board.
Marcelien is listed as a 470 sailor (silver medal winner) but now runs a RS:X compaing,
but what makes it relevent to me is that she is also a very successful F18 skipper.

Anyway, the AC is having a vote on it and they are voting against 'mixed'.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/06/10 11:51 AM

Some more info from the conference blog: http://isafconference.wordpress.com/

http://isafconference.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/multihull-musings/
"If multihulls are selected to be back in the Olympics the Multihull Commission believe that it should be:
3 sails; twin trapeze; centreboard and a manufactures class. Size should be 16, 18 or 20ft.
If a mixed multihull were selected they think in most case it would be female helm and male crew on something like a Formula 16."

http://isafconference.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/mixed-on-mixed/
"One of the options on the table for future Olympic classes is mixed multihull and mixed 470 class.
The Athletes Commission, made up current Olympic class sailors, are mixed on mixed.
Some like the idea some don’t. These are the views of the sailors themselves.
Goes to show how hard it is to make the right decisions."
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/06/10 05:50 PM

it would be daft if they specified a female helm.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/07/10 06:39 AM

Nobody is 'specifying' female helm - the long-term plan among the multihull crowd is that we're likely to see new female helms under a mixed designation which paves the way for a women's Event in the future.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/07/10 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18

"If multihulls are selected to be back in the Olympics the Multihull Commission believe that it should be:
3 sails; twin trapeze; centreboard and a manufactures class. Size should be 16, 18 or 20ft.
If a mixed multihull were selected they think in most case it would be female helm and male crew on something like a Formula 16."


The word "centreboard" indicates two things: british author and Tornado bias, one of the few cats not using daggerboards.

Depending on the context and other relevant details (I read only the post here) it could mean support for the Tornado in general, except for a mixed event, where an F16 or similar would be preferred.

Makes sense to me.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/07/10 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Nobody is 'specifying' female helm - the long-term plan among the multihull crowd is that we're likely to see new female helms under a mixed designation which paves the way for a women's Event in the future.


In other words, if a mixed event is chosen, boats with a female helm will probably be faster than those with men helm.
Since fame and popularity tends to be associated to the skipper and not the crew, female skippers will become the sport´s heroes - and this will certainly help get a women´s multihull event.
Makes perfect sense.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/07/10 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz
The word "centreboard" indicates two things: british author and Tornado bias, one of the few cats not using daggerboards.


Now you're just guessing... and wrong. Written by an AUS and presented with a Dutchie. grin
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/08/10 09:52 AM

I thought a daggerboard was a type of centerboard...... But not all centerboards are daggerboards.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/08/10 11:31 AM

Oh my Tornado had a (pivoting) centerboard, my Nacra has a daggerboard as it slides in a casing. But on my Laser they are called foils lol the middle board slides and the rudder pivots, but I think they are refering to their resistance being transferred upwards as they provide lift but arent a wing..
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/08/10 01:01 PM

As an unofficial update from Athens; there continues to be significant support for a multihull event, and discussion still about the 5/5 approach in the hallways and in meetings. There is potential for submissions 096 and 097 to be deferred to the May meeting, which is a little discouraging. Some MNAs are concerned that things might be moving too quickly, and others that feel the wording is difficult to transform into Regulation. But even with all that, it seems that the overall desire to move the Olympic agenda forward is unflagging and inevitable. There will be official updates from the Multihull Commission at some point in the next few days.

The stage is set for the Council debate and voting on Saturday.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/08/10 01:15 PM

Thanks for the update
Let us know any more that you get

Keep up the good work
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/09/10 04:20 PM

The lightbulb just went on for me over the weekend...

The reason mixed sailing will be unpopular at these meetings is that there are so many Olympic hopeful teams that are two men. One of them would have to go to get a woman in place.

Has nothing to do with whether or not there is mixed sailing happening in the world (forced or otherwise). And, as JW mentioned, if it's open (not forced mixed), women won't likely participate in large numbers, so the IOC will be pissed.

Great conundrum...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/09/10 04:58 PM

Quote
if it's open (not forced mixed), women won't likely participate in large numbers,


Since when did the Olympics become an affirmative action/ Title IX victim? This ain't Tball where everyone plays!

Moreover, the athletes that we talk with will be all for a men's event.... It's in their personal best interest as well. Look they are committed pro's looking to move up in the sport. Now with an AC Cup on the scene... they aspire to hook on with a campaign (See gasby) post Olympics. Of course they want a mens multihull event... it means nothing!

If the Multihull is Men (or Open)... and the women want a 470 event and not a multihull event... So be it! ... The IOC is happy that there is equal opportunity... Men's cat.. women's 470 .... The IOC is unhappy about having to watch and market 470 racing on TV.... THAT IS SAILING"S PROBLEM...

How long do you think the Olympic 470 women's teams would take to figure out a cat and be top 10 in the amateur ranks of ANY multihull class. ... a month.. tops.

The MNAs are just protecting their perceived edge and their existing athletes investments and trying to cover up this harsh fact with a flim flam. The IOC will see through the smoke an mirrors... What they do with the sport that won't get with the program... ... HMMMM.

This battle is strictly about politics of trying to get an edge for your country at the MNA level.... NOT AT ALL about WHAT IS GOOD FOR OLYMPIC SAILING or the integrity of Olympic Sailing.

Good news that some of the participants see through this lame proposal.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Luiz
The word "centreboard" indicates two things: british author and Tornado bias, one of the few cats not using daggerboards.


Now you're just guessing... and wrong. Written by an AUS and presented with a Dutchie. grin


I should have guessed that UK accent is mandatory... grin
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 03:18 PM

We're over a major hurdle; Events Committee recommends to Council to include a Mixed Multihull Event. We got 84% of the vote.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 03:24 PM

Hmm.... isn't this A BIT OF deja vu? Did not the events committee proposed Multihull's the last time only to be overturned at the council level?

Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 03:29 PM

What do you think our chances would have been if we'd been voted out today?
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 04:13 PM

I'm not keen on forcing mixed crews for both 470 and Multi, and why the choice between board and kites... drop the fin and let both be in!

From valencia sailing:
[Source: IASF] It was the most packed session we have had this week to hear the Events Committee’s recommendation on the provisional Olympic events and equipment for 2016.

This is how the voting went. The Events Committee recommends:

- Board or kite-board for men and women – equipment evaluation
- One person dinghy men – Laser Standard
- One person dinghy women – Laser Radial
- Two person dinghy (skiff) men – 49er
- Two person dinghy (skiff) women – equipment evaluation
- Second one person dinghy men – Finn
- Two person mixed multihull – equipment evaluation
- Two person mixed dinghy with spinnaker – 470
- Women’s keelboat – Elliott 6m

In so doing the committee’s voting recommends taking out the men’s keelboat. The second one person dinghy for women was the other option not to be selected.

The Committee’s recommendations are of course just that. They will go to the ISAF Council for consideration this weekend. After Council vote they are then subject to confirmation at the ISAF Mid-Year meeting in May 2011.

Posted By: Twister

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 04:19 PM

I wonder why the keelboat for women and not men? That is an event that could be mixed, on something like a Viper.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 04:22 PM

I just think the idea of mixed is wrong, should be open, or one for each... how many teams out there (in 470 as well) are now broken up.... Maybe it will work.. who knows.

It does open up the possibility of a Viper (F16) becoming the cat for the olympics though....

Maybe I'm wrong on this... so much of this seems wrong (mixed 470, mixed cat, board OR kites, still has Fin, has a women's keelboat but no mens....) I predict this won't get voted through unchanged.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 05:55 PM

Quote
What do you think our chances would have been if we'd been voted out today?


Actually... much better had this vote not come out this way!

Had we held firm... not accepted a mixed multihull... The Committees and Councils would have faced going to the IOC without a Multihull again... IMO... they would not have done this suicidal move.

NOW... the Council has cover... they can say.. well the athletes have approved a MIXED Mulit and a MIXED 470... We keep the Finn and dump a keel boat.

The athletes input and the committees have (as usual) been self serving...

WHY women's keel boat? ... answer... because the old women want to find a way to Professional sailing ... It's their priority.... has been for years.

Why Finn.... answer.. Olympic political clout!.... the fig leaf... is they tell the IOC that they are supporting individual athlete events.... (The women's committe wanted NO PART of this Hiking BS... so they get their wish... a women's Keel boat for match racing.)

These people act like sailing a catamaran is like piloting an alien space ship... Tell the old broads to get in shape and hike or trapeeze! ITS A FEAKING ATHLETIC COMPETITION.

The Olympic ideal SHOULD have been
Boards
Skiffs
CATS
Laser/Laser
Finn/Europe

This gives you gender equity... (IOC CHECK) shifts the majority of the sport to individual events (6 of 10) (IOC CHECK) NO Keel Boats... (IOC CHECK). Visually exciting.. Skiffs and Cats. (IOC CHECK)

As always John... Your milage may vary. I would not have compromised... the cost /benefit ratio is not good.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 06:43 PM

If it does go mixed, there are still 2 different way it could be [depending on the equipement]

Mixed on a performance cat - Something like an F16 would make Olympic sailing a specialist sport that requires a special boat and training squads. This would dilute the sailing that we do

Mixed on a 'Popular' cat - Something like a Hobie 16 would mean that classes like F18 and A class would still flourish and sailors would jump onto the H16 as a sideline for Olympic selection. This would ADD to the sailing that we do at the moment.


Olympic sailing will never be a sideline, there will always be pro sailors taking it very seriously. What I am trying to consider, is how it will effect overall [rank and file] cat sailing across the board

My vote would be for Hobie 16
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 06:57 PM

Uh oh! Now you've done it!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:08 PM

At least he didn't say Hobie 16 with a spinnaker...

Mike
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:13 PM

But that was what he meant....... grin
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:15 PM

Quote
Olympic sailing will never be a sideline, there will always be pro sailors taking it very seriously. What I am trying to consider, is how it will effect overall [rank and file] cat sailing across the board


Correct!... Fact of life... the Olympic sailors will not be competing in many regional regattas. they have no time.

So for a popular class like the Hobie 16... no spin!
That means.. they show up for your NA's... When you have 60 to 70 boats on the line for NA's... do 2 Olympic team boats make a difference...
IMO... No.

For a small performance class...eg the Tornado, does it make a difference... IMO Yes... you will never grow the class beyond the Olympic Sailors.

The problem with being the pinnacle of the sport... is that pinnacles are small... IF you have a large pyramid... to support the pinnacle.... great! If you have a narrow cylinder of a class... it is hard to grow this fleet.

I think that with mixed multihull... you take the Laser philosophy (Simple boat) and pick a Hobie 16 no chute.... You value popularity over performance.
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jalani
But that was what he meant....... grin


or a prindle 16; maybe a solcat?
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by Jalani
But that was what he meant....... grin


or a prindle 16; maybe a solcat?


found it..




Attached picture olympic  mixed.jpg
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by Jalani
But that was what he meant....... grin


or a prindle 16; maybe a solcat?


found it..




anyway- happy that first step is done to get multihulls back into the olympics
Posted By: Aido

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 08:13 PM

Im not trying to blame anyone here but, there still seems to be a lot of shitty boats recomended by the commitee IMO. Nothing really seems to have changed...what a shame. Isaf has a chance to do something good and its just the same old ****.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/10/10 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by maritimesailor


- Board or kite-board for men and women – equipment evaluation
- One person dinghy men – Laser Standard
- One person dinghy women – Laser Radial
- Two person dinghy (skiff) men – 49er
- Two person dinghy (skiff) women – equipment evaluation
- Second one person dinghy men – Finn
- Two person mixed multihull – equipment evaluation
- Two person mixed dinghy with spinnaker – 470
- Women’s keelboat – Elliott 6m



This could be interesting if the Star lobby started to push the 5&5 proposals as a way to survive.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/11/10 07:56 AM

The Hobie 16 is the introduction cat to the olympics eg youth worlds so I really dont think it will be chosen, anyhow the decision to go mixed cat is just as bad as dropping the tornado, If we summerise the pros and cons mixed = epic fail!
ISAF = bunch of monohull dinasours and the multihull council that is allowing the ISAF to dictate to them = piss weak
And that isnt because it isnt what I want, it is because its true! Any how if it happens to be in mixed hobie 16 I will get the chance to smash any olympic gold medalist team in my 10 yr old 17 ft nacra 1 up or 2 up or even if im drunk as a skunk and fall overboard, no challenge!
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/11/10 06:31 PM

John Willams, thanks for all you do for Multihull Sailing World wide. Remember,John is there fighting for our cause, and deserves all our support.
Caleb Tarleton
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/11/10 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
Originally Posted by maritimesailor


- Board or kite-board for men and women – equipment evaluation
- One person dinghy men – Laser Standard
- One person dinghy women – Laser Radial
- Two person dinghy (skiff) men – 49er
- Two person dinghy (skiff) women – equipment evaluation
- Second one person dinghy men – Finn
- Two person mixed multihull – equipment evaluation
- Two person mixed dinghy with spinnaker – 470
- Women’s keelboat – Elliott 6m



This could be interesting if the Star lobby started to push the 5&5 proposals as a way to survive.


I was thinking the same thing!
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 02:54 PM

From Ben Barger: "Voted on submission 96 passed for new event selection procedure. Now to 97 and the vote."
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
As always John... Your milage may vary. I would not have compromised... the cost /benefit ratio is not good.


Mark, your input is, of course, appreciated. But I think you're just wrong. We tried the "no compromise" approach and it was an abject failure. When there was still a chance of getting to Weymouth, we ruined it by allowing naïveté and bullish behaviour to guide our effort. For Christ's sake, we threatened to sue!

It is too easy in righteous indignation to dig in your heels and refuse to budge. Is 5/5 the right way to go for sailing as a sport? Of course it is. And we are on record in a positive and constructive way as saying so, steadfastly and consistently; but not to the exclusion of all else anymore. Watching the classes struggle to stay alive in the Olympic arena was, for me, a tremendously humbling experience. The truth is that they are all, every one, in the same state as us. There are no rock-solid alliances, lobbying juggernauts, or perfect strategies. We have had equal presence at ISAF meetings for the last three years, and THAT is what did the trick. We just have to show up to stay topical and visible, smile and start conversations, and keep a positive outlook.

For now and through 2015, we are the mixed multihull event. The groundwork for a men's and a women's event in 2020 is laid, and mixed is a part of that strategy. I'm sorry you don't like the plan, but your way of doing it wasn't working. Varying mileage? Your no-compromise approach kept us at the ramp, looking on. By playing the game, we got all the way to Rio.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 03:27 PM

http://isafconference.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/multihulls-mixed-sailing-and-more/

The vote is in.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 03:50 PM

Thanks Dub!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 03:56 PM

I need to start looking for a small girlfriend laugh
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 04:41 PM

Don't get her too small, Rolf. Macca and I enjoyed continuing the debate in Athens over a pint or five, but I still think the proof is in the pudding; IF (and it is a big IF) an F16-type boat is selected as equipment, it is worth noting that in all F16 events in the US, F18-sized teams have performed very well. All of the F16 platforms I have lain hands on needed much more that the Macca-predicted 120kgs to land the podium.

And I can't stress enough - the Evaluation will be detailed and open; I'm sure there will be 16, 18 and 20-foot designs in the running. The outcome is not at all assured to be one over the other.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 04:48 PM

John, I am a featherweight at 100kgs and dont have much bodyfat to loose.

This will be the second multihull evaluation event in 10 years. Hopefully the Tornado will come out on top at its third evaluation event.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 05:04 PM

NO... I will not let this characterization of the past stand.

Quote
we ruined it by allowing naïveté and bullish behaviour to guide our effort. For Christ's sake, we threatened to sue!


Quote
We have had equal presence at ISAF meetings for the last three years, and THAT is what did the trick.



Fact... Before the Tornado was eliminated, the Tornado Class and the rest of the mulithull community played games with each other at cross purposes with ISAF. The T class was represented by ONE volunteer while manufacturer reps/ other multihull class reps pushed a different agenda at ISAF meetings. Our discipline was always outnumbered by many more ADULTS who focused and represented their discipline and managed their niche pretty well.

So, the Olympic Multihull representation fell on one ONE GUY who battled both the other multihull voices AND the other Olympic class interests. Even worse, He battled T class Olympic sailors who pushed and pushed the rules to the brink, not once but TWICE for two Olympic cycles. The end result was a dramatic demonstration that Olympic Multihull sailing was not about athlete performance when the Silver medalists show up with a BRAND NEW Sail design ... forcing the ISAF to blubber lamely about one design sailing and the athletes who compete at the games.

As they say... MISTAKES WERE MADE!

naïveté ... NOT A CHANCE... even I KNEW how much trouble multihull sailing was in BEFORE the ISAF descion.

Don't confuse typical mulithull sailor apathy or our chippy FU attitiude with naivete!
The messages were delivered and they were ignored by the T class Sailors... by the multihull Class reps... and certainly by the multihull rank and file.

naïveté... NO!... Apathy? Absolutely! Righteous Indignation... Typical self serving BS.

Bullish Behavior.... Yeah well when you have ONE GUY on his personal dime trying to literally manage cats/children on his side... it's possible to characterize his efforts as bullish... IF WE HAD BEEN ADULTS AND PLAYED BALL WITH A VARIETY OF VOICES AT THE MEETINGS AND AT THE TABLES... we would not have been characterized as BULLISH.... (I absolutely agree with your point that for three years we have had multiple representatives at the meetings and at the tables... Sadly, this is about 12 years too late!)

After this FUBAR... the world scape goated Mike... Oh he sued.. oh he screwed up, oh he was an AHole..... Much easier then taking responsibility.

I view his efforts as desperately trying to represent our interests BY HIMSELF and the back biting among the MULTIHULL advocates and bad behaviiour was a huge factor leading to the ISAF descion of... WHO NEEDS THESE GUYS. Your milage may vary of course... But this is a closer description and interpretation of the past.

Now the present and future....
Your point... EVERY CLASS has their own agenda to remain or become Olympic.... Understandable... and always true.

Your point... the committees... also have their own agenda... Understandable and always true.

Each MNA has an agenda... the Brits need multihulls in the games to keep their funding stream alive... The USA has strength in some disciplines and not others... blah blah blah.

Quote
We have had equal presence at ISAF meetings for the last three years, and THAT is what did the trick.


This is where we disagree.... I ASSERT that from the IOC to the ISAF to the MNA's to the Rank and File.... There was widespread agreement that Multihull's MUST be represented at the games...
THEN the AMERICA's Cup happened.... THEN the NEXT CUP happened...

Yes we need to be there...We need a diverse representation. Yes the schmmoozing is important. but... do you REALLY THINK that this level of politics will be dis-positive.... Not me!

So... Politics and compromises must be made.... I get that and agree. BUT... you can't compromise on the principles.. It's the Olympics... so the game is about the pinnacle of the sport... Until somebody can tell me why the world at large would view a BRAND NEW MIXED event ... with has no history as the pinnacle of anything... AT any level of competition... I dissent.

Compromise involves everyone giving up something for the good of the whole... Logrolling is fine so long as you maintain the integrity of your principals. IMO, the politics swamped the big picture.

Since the Board on Saturday is NOT bound to honor these rec's... This could all be irrelevant... the committee output was irrelevant to the final decision the last time.

So... two more hurdles... the spring ISAF vote... You sound like you don't expect any surprises at this level (unlike the last time).

The IOC... will they keep Sailing???... given the proposed changes ISAF has put forth.

From my point of view... The Problems for the IOC:
Still a Keel boat in the games... = big cost.
unbalanced events: men's heavy weight single hander... women's heavy weight keel boat.

Novel creation of MIXED events. (requires some splainin..)

on the plus side..
Add two additional visually exciting events. W skiffs and Mixed Multihulls.

Is this enough??

Respectfully
Mark
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 05:19 PM

Good job.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 05:57 PM



ISAF: "This is a provisional list of event and subject to final confirmation in the ISAF mid year meeting next May"

Provisional is such a powerful word.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 06:45 PM

Provisional is also a HOPEFUL word... One last chance to get it right.

What do you think... they run this by the IOC and get a thumbs down... (Roman... not Greek symbol ... meaning off with their heads)

What then?
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 07:17 PM

[Linked Image]

WTG John! Better to have your foot in the door than not at all!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 09:16 PM

Great job John (et al)...

Now to keep the irons hot through to the spring meeting!

Mark, I appreciate your enthusiasm (and truly wish more people had it), but I don't see ANYTHING in that last rant that could POSSIBLY move us forward. True, we don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, but we also don't need to dwell and can't turn back the clock. We need to move forward in the current environment and change it over time.

IMHO, ISAF will never let keelboats go, and will continue to leverage Paralympic sailing if need be. They are on record for this.

Mike
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 10:19 PM

yes, well done to all the multihull reps at the meeting.

The final list of events is a mess.

Imagine you are a member of the IOC. You love sport, but you are not that familiar with sailing... ISAF flop this list on the desk in front of you and you get someone that is more familiar with the sport to explain it to you...you are gonna have some questions...
Men and women each have a board, a skiff and a single-hander - fine. Why do men need an extra single-hander?
Why don't men sail in keel boats?
Why do only mixed teams sail dinghies and multihulls
We have 3 single hander classes and only one keelboat - do 3 times as many people sail singlehanders?
We have 2 sailboard classes and only one dinghy class - do 2 times as many people sail boards as sail dinghies?


OK some of the answers to these questions could make sense, but my point is that it seems to be a mish-mass list with no real pattern or system, it therefore leaves itself open to questions

I can't see ISAF having the bottle to submit it after the May meeting. Its all still up in the air in my mind.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
yes, well done to all the multihull reps at the meeting.

The final list of events is a mess.

Imagine you are a member of the IOC. You love sport, but you are not that familiar with sailing... ISAF flop this list on the desk in front of you and you get someone that is more familiar with the sport to explain it to you...you are gonna have some questions...
Men and women each have a board, a skiff and a single-hander - fine. Why do men need an extra single-hander?
Why don't men sail in keel boats?
Why do only mixed teams sail dinghies and multihulls
We have 3 single hander classes and only one keelboat - do 3 times as many people sail singlehanders?
We have 2 sailboard classes and only one dinghy class - do 2 times as many people sail boards as sail dinghies?


OK some of the answers to these questions could make sense, but my point is that it seems to be a mish-mass list with no real pattern or system, it therefore leaves itself open to questions

I can't see ISAF having the bottle to submit it after the May meeting. Its all still up in the air in my mind.




I’m so happy to see a cat back in there (thanks to all who made that happen) but I agree with your sentiment.
The problem is that the process takes place in a piecemeal fashion. The entire slate needs to be voted on to ensure that there is proper balance. To my mind the end result is just so simple when you take all the class preferences out of the equation.

Single Handed Dinghy (classic) Women & Men
Double Handed Dinghy (modern) Women & Men
Boards (modern) Women & Men
Multihull (modern) Women & Men
Keel Boat (classic) Women & Men
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/12/10 11:22 PM

This whole "Olympic Sailing" situation has become a load of crap. I think we all agree on that. It has more to do about PC, personal platform prejudice and gender equity than sailing.

Do the other Olympic disiplines have the same issues that we "yachters" have?

I used to root for the "home team" regardless of what the selected classes were. Being a two hull guy, I was especially energized when the "T" made the cut for '76.

That was 35 years ago. We are into a new generation both in society and the olympics where it is all about media, $$$$, and PC.

We had 5 classes and they changed slightly from year to year...5.5 to Dragon to Soling, FD to 470, Star to Tempest to Star, Finn to Finn to Finn, etc. TORNADO!!!!

It all went down hill from there...I can accept a few women's classes, they deseve it for sure. Throw in a sailboard or two, I'm OK with that.

Now they are trying to fit all the special interests into 10 disiplines. Even that makes sense if you have to limit it at some number.

One would think that you would just pick a variety of classes that are popular in a lot of places and if someone wants to be an "Olympian", they would migrate to one of those classes.

I know this is simplistic thinking and on this forum we all want a cat (note: not just a multihull).

So now we might have to settle for a "mixed" team? Why us rather than the 49er? And whose bright idea is it to have both the Finn and Laser? It's the Olympics for crissakes, man up.. Paul Elvstrom did.

I would almost rather have the multihull be an Aqua Cat. Wouldn't our Rock Stars still decide the issue of who is the best Catsailor?

You guys are fighting the good fight. Keep it up JW, et al. Mark is way over abused by short thinking posters. He may say things that sound like ranting, but there is a lot of wisdom in his posts...as there was with Wouter until y'all ran him off. Or did Rick cut him off because he went over the posting limit? grin







Posted By: windswept

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 12:36 AM

I am happy to see the multihull back in the mix. It is not final so I will not hold my breath until it is. I do not understand the remaining list though. Some I agree with and others I do not. I wonder how the IOC is going to view this list. Still think there is much politics at play here. I was not there so that is just a supposition.
Posted By: Paul Pascoe

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 01:47 AM

The following is not an official report from the ISAF Multihull Commission, but an unofficial account including a number of personal opinions on the subject of multihulls and the process of getting them back into the 2016 Olympic Games from one of the "insiders".


As everyone will be aware, the ISAF Council voted 19 - 16 to support the recommendations of the Events Committee for a slate of 10 events for the 2016 Olympic Games, including a mixed multihull. This slate is a recommendation only with the aim to provide direction and allow people to plan further ahead than in previous Olympic cycles. The final decision on events will be made at the May 2011 Mid-year meeting to be held at St Petersburg in Russia. Unfortunately a 19 - 16 vote is not an overwhelming vote of support and it would only require a re-think by 2 Council members to overturn this decision in May, so there is still a lot of work to do between now and May.

So to recap the events that lead to this decision:

Following the vote to drop the multihull in 2007 ISAF decided that a piecemeal approach to event/class selection for the Olympic Games was not in the best interests of the sport and formed the Olympic Commission to provide an overall strategy not just for event selection, but also for World Cup and World Championship events. This Commission generated a lot of interest and with their report submitted last May, people began dissecting their report in great detail. While everyone felt that it was an excellent piece of work, each particular group found one or another piece that disadvantaged their particular self interest. For the multihull community the recommendation for the re-introduction of a multihull was most welcome, however, one other aspect of the report was the aim to achieve gender equity with equal medals available to men and women. To achieve this, there either needed to be a men's and women's multihull, no multihull, or a mixed multihull with a male/female on each team. With the Commission recommending a single mixed multihull, to achieve gender balance across the ten events there then needed to be another mixed event and the mixed 470 was proposed, effectively pairing it with the multihull.

The Commission also proposed a slate of six core events of men's and women's board/kite, single hander and skiff. Given that everyone was of the opinion that the multihull "must be returned to the Olympics", one has to ask why the multihull was not part of this set of core events, and this remains an unresolved issue.

At the Multihull Commission meeting, the overwhelming view was that we should pursue a separate men's and women's event, but that a mixed multihull was an acceptable though less preferred alternative.

As part of the Olympic Commission report, they also offered up a voting procedure which was followed by the Events Committee who voted in the slate of six core events, and then proceeded to a vote to narrow the remaining six recommended events for the four remaining slots. The encouraging support of 84% of voting members put the multihull in front of the Finn, Star, 470, Women's keelboat and a 2nd women's single hander. At this vote the last two remaining boats were the Finn vs Star with the Finn coming out comfortably in front and the Star being eliminated.

This recommendation then went to the Council which voted 19 - 16 to support the recommendations. This vote is non-binding and the final decision is to be made at the mid-year meeting in May in St Petersburg, Russia. Given that the vote was close, one can expect a significant amount of lobbying in the ensuing months from those who feel that the recommendations do not meet the needs of the sailing community or that their particular interests are not well represented.

So for multihullers the issues/messages out of the meeting are:

• The issue of mixed gender is still undecided. While no-one has put forward any concrete reasons against mixed gender, it is still an issue with unknown consequences. In sailing outside of the Olympics, mixed sailing by choice is extremely common, but enforced mixed gender is not. And the reverse can be said for men's and women's sailing - it is one of the few places where sailing split by gender is enforced and is not almost unheard of in club sailing.

• With mixed gender brings up the issue of "who would be driving". The general consensus was that for a 470, probably the female would drive and the male would be crew, simply based on weight considerations. In the multihull it would be dependant on what boat was chosen. If a smaller boat was chosen then either could be helm/crew whereas if a bigger boat were chosen it would probably be a women helming due to the high loads on the mainsheet.

• With the mixed gender being somewhat divisive, the previous submissions about a 5/5 split of boats has again begun to gain favour in some quarters. This proposal, originally from the US, called for a men's and women's board, single hander, double hander, multihull and keelboat. This has significant advantages with pairings at each level of the sport. However, once you then start looking at specifics, this would mean the removal of either the 470 men and women or the 49er and the women's skiff, as well as pitting the Laser against the Finn. It would also mean changing a lot of classes all in one shot, and changing classes causes major upheavals for sailors, MNAs, etc. In the past, it has been typical to change only one or two classes per cycle.

• The May meeting could see the issue of events again opened up for debate. So for multihullers, the outcomes could be that we end up with a men's and women's multihull, a mixed multihull, or heaven forbid, no multihull.

So while the vote at the Events Committee in Athens is very positive for multihullers, the job is not done yet with 16 Council members effectively saying that they are not happy with the current slate, and we will all have to reconvene again in six months time in St Petersburg to ensure we end up with at least one multihull sailing in the waters off Copacabana beach in 2016.

And finally, a big thank you to all those who attended the meeting and help promote the message of mulithulls.

Members at the Multihull Commission meeting:
Carolijn Brouwer
David Brookes
John Williams

Other multihuller supporters at the meetings
Darren Bundock
Nahid Gaebler
Olivier Bovyn
Roland Gaebler
Edwin Lodder
Trigonis Konstantinos
Rob White
Mark Pryke
Hugh Styles
Gunnar Larsen
Andrew McPherson
Yves Loday
Arnaud Gautier
Richard Slater

ISAF Staff Member:
Simon Forbes


And to the offsite crew of Nick Dewhurst, Will Sunnocks and Simon Morgan for all their support and with special congratulations to Simon who also managed to have a son during the meeting.

Regards,

Paul Pascoe
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 01:50 AM

Quote

as there was with Wouter until y'all ran him off. Or did Rick cut him off because he went over the posting limit?


I'm still here !

I'm just more taken up by other pursuits in life.
I'm spreading my wisedom elsewhere ! grin

I do check back regulary though.

Kind regards,

Wouter
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 04:31 AM

Nothing could run that dude off! haha
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 09:06 AM

John Gender balance! Is that what you really think will apease to the viewers, if that were true then we would have a mixed super bowl wouldnt we, I say to you John getting a multihull in using a mixed event will not be enought to lift viewer interest to a level where the olympic sailing can survive, I say better we have NO mixed multihull event because that will not be enough to save olympic sailing anyhow...Do the general non sailing spectators really care about Gender Balance, definately not! They will tune in to watch the best of the best sail in the fastest and most spectacular cat on the market, that is definately not a 16 footer and isnt a hubby and wifey team, your proposal to support an mixed event is unaceptable, to the future of olympic cat sailing, as you will be condemming it, by its failure to really deliver what the non sailer wants to see..We need to go all the way, or not at all, I thank you for your support I just wish I could steer you in the right direction. Remember in order to make the olympic sailing survive it has to really appeal to the houshold viewer or its over, and in your previous post you already admitted that a male will need to hold the main sheet on the bigger platform, in that case then it isnt fair to choose a larger platform as the women wont get to sheet the main and compete as equal, thats not gender equal now is it? So make the event on a smaller cat 14 to 16 foot! wake up to yourself please, that is not what is needed to lift viewer numbers and you know it! The general viewer must and want to watch 20 foot cats that wont be over weighted in light conditions. Just how exiting will a 2 up 16footer with your argued heavy weights on it perform in 5 knots of breeze, like a piece of boring ****! Yet a 20 foot cat can still lift a hull and power up under spinaker, I really dont think that the ISAF have considered that! Light winds versed spectator interest in a small 16 footer verses a 20 footer, Can you garuntee 15 to 20 knots at the next venue John? Can olympic sailing take the chance? I ask you in all fairness Please do not condem olympic cat sailing to a mixed event in a 16 foot cat in very light breezes its not worth the risk, is it? Just my thoughts and i am always open to other opinions and ideas, and now is the time to put them forward..
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 10:59 AM

Personally I'm more of the side "why not" then "why" in this respect and agree with John here. Lets make mixed multi sailing the most exiting sailing event in the Olympics ! It's gotta beat heavy men dinghy sailing with ease as a spectator sport !

I say this is an opportunity that we must leverage with all our might. Perferable to a final result where both men and women have a multi event. I feel that alot of other posters are just vinegar pissers because their preferred setup is not high on the equipment listing. Tough luck guys, you should have worked harder on the design or on building a viable class.

Personally, I feel nothing fundamentally wrong with mixed teams, hell, I would even liked to see that ! Seriously. I think it can introduce a new dimension to sports in general. Don't we have mixed doubles in tennis for example ? Also, it increases the pool of potential sailors by theoretically 2 ! Not in the beginning of course but after a several years of good promo ? Aren't we complianing about the decline of sailing ? Well, opening up the sport to the other half of the populus can't really be a bad thing, can it ?

Of course then we get the usual BS about a 16 footer being a toy compared to the manly man 20 footers, bla, bla, bla. How a 16 footer will sink with two heavy weights on it, but the Olympics aren't really about beer belly overweights are they ? They are about trimmed-down athletic young people right ? How many 90kg version will there be of those ? Or are we putting Mike Tyson kind of persons on sail craft now ? Of course, we also get the "slow as hell" argument when for example the F16's are ONLY 15% slower around the course then the overhyped Nacra carbon 20. Yep, you got that right, a full 15% (5 min per race)! Never mind that (even) the 16's beat the 49-er skiff (another overhyped class) by a 20% margin already. My point being here that pretty much any catamaran design (including the H16's) will beat ALL OTHER SAILING OLYMPIC CLASSES hands down anyway. In fact, the F16's beat ALL OTHER types of sailboats (incl. moth foilers, 14 and 16 foot skiffs, with 18's being equal at best) around the course, save a handful of larger cats (M20, Tornado (only 10% faster), Nacra 20C, plus a few one-offs or prototypes). And that most definately includes light winds. How can that ever be bad ? You yourself, celebrated the Nacra 17 (gets beaten by F16) as a good option a short while ago ? I'm sure you also know the meaning of the expression "Double standard".


No I say that some of us here are focussing to much on the negative and don't see the opportunities that John tries to explain to us.

Start out mixed and make that work then work to get a second (mens) multi included while keeping the current choice as the womens multi. Like a two-stage rocket. Seems like the best approach given the situation to me. The 5/5 directly would be better but that is simply not in the cards at this time.

So we've got to use what we've got and get some results first.

Regards,

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 11:15 AM


Quote

Nothing could run that dude off! haha


Got that right !

(ask yourself, who do you want besides you when the **** hits the fan ?) you may not like my character but you know where you can depend on grin

Wouter
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 12:02 PM

nice reply wouter, the F16 sounds awsome, tell me what is the yardstick of a foiling moth in under 5 knots? those yardsticks are taken in various wind strength etc, it may be that a F16 with equal crew weight to a C20 sailed in under 5 knots or a heavier crew on the c20 sailed in 25 to 30 knots with its wider beam the difference may be way more than you have said, that i am not sure of. Dont mean to throw mud but that is what the forum is about, thats how we learn...thanks
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 03:51 PM

Thanks, Paul, for providing this summary. I'm sure folks will find it helpful. For my part, I'm grateful for your leadership and steadfast dedication to the goal of returning a multihull event to the Olympic Games.

I would have bet as my plane took off from Athens that 097 would go down in flames, leaving us with lots of pieces to pick up in the coming months. Instead, a majority in Council sought to move forward. While I agree that the margin is slim, I expect the margin will be much wider in May... there could be slight movement in the slate, but I agree with those who feel balance is important; big changes will upset the apple cart. This development already signals a tectonic change in how the Olympic Events are decided. Though there are still elements of the old, unhappy way of doing things piecemeal, I think the Olympic Commission set in motion a better method for the future.

On to the equipment evaluation!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 05:19 PM


Interestingly enough; I made the best results in very light winds on my F16 (with Nacra 20's present). Being small doesn't necessarily mean that you must be slow in light winds. There are alot of factors at play and I'm no lover of light conditions, it is just that my boat tracks very well in that stuff. Don't really understand why either. Interestingly enough, I used to push through the leesides of Nacra 20s in the big stuff and overtake them as they are depowering too much. Weaker points are in fact the middle wind ranges but difference to F18's is pretty small even there.

Lessons learned : alot of stuff may indeed be counterintuitive and we must listen to guys like John W. and John Casey who raced these boats in earnest. F16's pack alot more punch then is apparent from the specs. (and that is what I call good designing)

But other points stand ; even the H16 will be a quantum leap up in performance from anything currently in the Olympics with possible the sole exception being the 49-er (about as fast). So this bickering between fast multi's (F16's) compared to even faster multi's (Nacra 20C) is pretty meaningless in the grant scheme of things.

I have no love for the H16's, but will support it wholeheartedly and on record if that is our way back in.

Wouter

Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 05:30 PM

So how did Irish Cook and Sertl vote?
I'm sure that US Sailing members would like to know.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 06:01 PM

The US members at Council voted for the slate as proposed by the Events Committee. The US members of the Events Committee voted for the men's and women's keelboats and the mixed multihull in the second round.
Posted By: RCG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 08:17 PM

glad to see Multihull back again. I think mixed is a mistake and does not represent the sector of multihull sailing properly. The Gender balance is really out of wack. Based on the slate they have just approved there will be 9 girls and 7 guys across the 10 sailing classes . 5 + 5 is the only way forward . Star may fight for this now and multihull may have a chance to help overturn by May. hope so
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/13/10 09:43 PM

I am worried about two things:

1) The fact that the list of events is difficult to explain gives the council a good excuse to change everything.

2) The exclusion of the Star will activate a strong lobby of old, rich and famous professional sailors.

I'd feel more comfortable with the rational, symetrical and easy to understand US submission of male/female board, singlehander, doublehander, multihull and keelboat.
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 06:25 AM

Ha... like that'll happen Luiz, Isn't the head of ISAF an Ex-finn or something, that would spell the end of the Finn for the Laser would get preference!!!

I still think the H16 is a good choice, they can crash just as spectacular as most, if not better. Heaps of people (countries) sail (race) them and they look cool on camera.

Perfect as a mixed multi as well. Fire away Devon....
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by engineer
Ha... like that'll happen Luiz, Isn't the head of ISAF an Ex-finn or something, that would spell the end of the Finn for the Laser would get preference!!!

I still think the H16 is a good choice, they can crash just as spectacular as most, if not better. Heaps of people (countries) sail (race) them and they look cool on camera.

Perfect as a mixed multi as well. Fire away Devon....


I hear HOBIE also have great sales back up! Trying very hard to contain myself here..
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 09:08 AM

Yes, they couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery

Attached picture Hobie2.jpg
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 10:01 AM

I still don't get it, what is soooo bad about the H16???
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 10:42 AM

of course the H16 looks much more modern than a Tornado with spin and will be a great advertisment for the modern sport of cat sailing. Ho Ho Ho
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 11:16 AM

Engineer
Irony is difficult to communicate in writing
The pic shows that Hobie would do a very good job
Posted By: ACE11

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Devon
Originally Posted by engineer
Ha... like that'll happen Luiz, Isn't the head of ISAF an Ex-finn or something, that would spell the end of the Finn for the Laser would get preference!!!

I still think the H16 is a good choice, they can crash just as spectacular as most, if not better. Heaps of people (countries) sail (race) them and they look cool on camera.

Perfect as a mixed multi as well. Fire away Devon....


I hear HOBIE also have great sales back up! Trying very hard to contain myself here..


Devon

You're dreaming - the Hobie dealer in your State provides service second to none and has done so for many years. Mal also is a very generous sponsor of general regattas - only a week ago Sunstate Hobie sponsored the biggest cat regatta in Queensland. I'm not a Hobie owner or sailor but believe in giving credit where it is due. You are also lucky to have a very good Nacra dealer. Quit ya bitchin'.

Cheers
Posted By: engineer

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 12:58 PM

Trust me Ace, I know Devon was giving Mal praise, it was me he was referring to about containment!!
Sorry Paul, my comment was for Devon, I clicked 45 and missed 46.... my bad.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by ACE11
Originally Posted by Devon
Originally Posted by engineer
Ha... like that'll happen Luiz, Isn't the head of ISAF an Ex-finn or something, that would spell the end of the Finn for the Laser would get preference!!!

I still think the H16 is a good choice, they can crash just as spectacular as most, if not better. Heaps of people (countries) sail (race) them and they look cool on camera.

Perfect as a mixed multi as well. Fire away Devon....


I hear HOBIE also have great sales back up! Trying very hard to contain myself here..


Devon

You're dreaming - the Hobie dealer in your State provides service second to none and has done so for many years. Mal also is a very generous sponsor of general regattas - only a week ago Sunstate Hobie sponsored the biggest cat regatta in Queensland. I'm not a Hobie owner or sailor but believe in giving credit where it is due. You are also lucky to have a very good Nacra dealer. Quit ya bitchin'.

Cheers

Actually i really meant that HOBIE has great sales backup! Their whole operation is well organised, it wasnt meant to be sinical, cant always type what you mean..typing wink lacks expression..sorry..
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/14/10 02:34 PM

So... after defining the event... Mixed Multihull

Now comes the fun part... What do you think is important for an Olympic boat.

Back in the day, when sailboat racing was more popular in the controlling big nations, the notion was that you wanted a technically demanding and physically challenging boat that would only reward the total sailor. We got the Tornado!

As sailing popularity declined and the Olympic movement made enormous efforts to make each event inclusive of all nations... the powers that be changed their philosophy.... we got the laser. Cheap, simple, used world wide and familiar to every one. Technical, highly refined and technically demanding dinghies were out.

So... for Mixed Multihull. What will the IOC want to see. What will the Olympic Sailors want to see... What will we get from an ISAF trial ( a boat designed by committee).

Popular world wide... Simple to use, familiar to the people of the world.
or
Technical and tweaky boat that is a real challenge to sail?

Equally important to the rank and file... Will the choice of an Olympic Mixed Mulithull grow racing for the rank and file cat racer, be irrelevant or actually harm an existing class.

If it helps or hurts sailing... How do you think this works?
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 12:23 AM

If it's still a mixed multihull after the May meeting I think it will be a Viper.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
If it's still a mixed multihull after the May meeting I think it will be a Viper.


Only the H16 makes sense under the apparent scheme. That makes you a potential Olympian Bob. In the big picture, without prejudice, it makes perfect sense to me. I loved the "T" until they got nuts and lost focus. The Viper is a great boat, as are all the F16s and F18s, but they really don't meet the Olympic profile.

Start training guy!
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
So... after defining the event... Mixed Multihull

Now comes the fun part... What do you think is important for an Olympic boat.

Back in the day, when sailboat racing was more popular in the controlling big nations, the notion was that you wanted a technically demanding and physically challenging boat that would only reward the total sailor. We got the Tornado!

As sailing popularity declined and the Olympic movement made enormous efforts to make each event inclusive of all nations... the powers that be changed their philosophy.... we got the laser. Cheap, simple, used world wide and familiar to every one. Technical, highly refined and technically demanding dinghies were out.

So... for Mixed Multihull. What will the IOC want to see. What will the Olympic Sailors want to see... What will we get from an ISAF trial ( a boat designed by committee).

Popular world wide... Simple to use, familiar to the people of the world.
or
Technical and tweaky boat that is a real challenge to sail?

Equally important to the rank and file... Will the choice of an Olympic Mixed Mulithull grow racing for the rank and file cat racer, be irrelevant or actually harm an existing class.

If it helps or hurts sailing... How do you think this works?

Thats really a lot to chew on, Im gunna be really brave now and just throw this out there, lets copy the sucess of the laser but in a cat, how about the hobie wave, this will really open the market up not just to the adults but to the younger teens as well, it can be sailed 2 up with spin kit, cheap to buy and run, easy to transport, and way faster than the laser, heck most of the laser sailers will probably want to jump ship as well, is sold worldwide, easy to learn, would be a great match racer, I really dont think they will want high tech, i think they want it to look like a coke a cola add where every one in the add is having a great time, lasers arent cutting edge but are sumwhat simular to the wave, simple and fun. Is a class where father and daughter could win gold.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 03:59 AM

Ok I have had another thought, what about the weta tri? These are faster than most mono hulls also. Who sais it has to be a CAT? It sais mixed multi hull..
Posted By: ACE11

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 04:23 AM

A common thread running through all olympic sports is that they use the best and most advanced equipment. Can you imagine Tiger Woods or Roger Federer using clubs or racquets from the 1960's or 1970's. We have been criticising the decision to drop multis as a step away from spectacular performance sailing and a move to dreary outdated slugs. Anything other than choosing a modern, fast and challenging boat would be a retrograde step. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of sailing being showcased to the world. I don't buy the argument that it has to be a boat currently sailed in a lot of countries and cheaply available. Buying a boat is a minor part of running an olympic campaign. Travel to major regattas, specialised training, loss of employment, accommodation etc are way more. Can you imagine top tennis players rejecting an advance in racquet technology because there are a lot of the old ones around the world and some countires may not be able to afford the new ones?

I say run a selection shootout and choose the fastest most spectacular boat that can be sailed effectively by the slated crew configuration.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 05:06 AM

Viper F-16
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by ACE11
A common thread running through all olympic sports is that they use the best and most advanced equipment. Can you imagine Tiger Woods or Roger Federer using clubs or racquets from the 1960's or 1970's. We have been criticising the decision to drop multis as a step away from spectacular performance sailing and a move to dreary outdated slugs. Anything other than choosing a modern, fast and challenging boat would be a retrograde step. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of sailing being showcased to the world. I don't buy the argument that it has to be a boat currently sailed in a lot of countries and cheaply available. Buying a boat is a minor part of running an olympic campaign. Travel to major regattas, specialised training, loss of employment, accommodation etc are way more. Can you imagine top tennis players rejecting an advance in racquet technology because there are a lot of the old ones around the world and some countires may not be able to afford the new ones?

I say run a selection shootout and choose the fastest most spectacular boat that can be sailed effectively by the slated crew configuration.

I feel the same way as you do, but tennis isnt about to be dropped by the IOC, for this time round all we need is to attract more viewers, if that can be done using high tech then fine if it can be done using a popular laser style of multihull then we need to go that way, simply viewer numbers have to increase or we have nothing, high tech or not! Once we re-establish an interest in multihull sailing then we can promote the elite in modern high tech multis that will only ever be sailed in smaller numbers
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 06:20 AM

Aren't f16 sailors worried about their class if the viper is selected?
Posted By: ACE11

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 06:40 AM

Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.
Posted By: Devon

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by ACE11
Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.

I know where you are coming from ace, and I have argued your point on several occasions, and I still prefer to no compromise, it should be pinnacle but at the moment we just dont have the following, its like what LE is trying to do with the AC he is trying to create new heroes, bedroom posters, build the interest back, so I can see how just putting an extreme multi up there may not work, only we will watch, not Mrs Jones..Something like a weta which is still faster than any current olympic monos and close to the 49er may provide that opening for youth as well as adults, Because Mrs Jones will watch her teenagers and so will all of her friends, I hate that concept because the olympics wont be showcasing the pinnacle, but I have come to learn from people in this forum that is where we need to start in order to get to a pinnacle event in the future. Unless they give multis 2 spots. I have expressed my views openy to people like John and have come to realise that he is really leading us down the right path, and I am a stubborn sob and a ex Tornado sailer..Cheers big ears
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mugrace72
the "T" until they got nuts and lost focus.


Could you please explain how the T Class "got nus and lost focus" ??????

Originally Posted by Mugrace72
The Viper is a great boat..... but they really don't meet the Olympic profile.


And please elaborate on this further. The Viper is now an ISAF recognised class. Something the Tornado and 49er were not when introduced to the games. And, I beleive also the RSX. Also note the Viper may fit within the F16 (and 104) class rules, however it is far from an optimal F16. It is more a 104 than an F16.

If it is a mixed class, I beleive the Viper would be a great selection. the Tornado is more than capable of being a mixed class alsoo but feel the smaller boat woud be better suited.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 09:31 AM

Anyone know what the procedure is for the selection of equipment?
Is it by invitation? Or can any manufacturer submit a boat?
I think the Viper or other F16 is a nice boat, but I do think a bigger boat would be better, to prevent the risk of the proverbial midget sailors.
Maybe we will see an F18 design after all?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by ACE11
Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.
Devon


The Viper is a cracking good boat and has demonstrated it can carry a range of weights and retain its speed and performance, it does tick a lot of boxes and also is modestly priced compared to say the new F20C, that it has to be a contender if we can get a mixed class in multihulls ( about the only way in my opinion ).

Will it hurt the F16 class, it is sufficiently outside of the F16 rules that it will make its own SMOD class and the more experimental sailors or the solo sailor will continue to develop the F16 class until the Viper starts to fall back a little as the Viper design cannot be updated if selected.

The F16 boat designs at the moment are sufficiently equal in speed in dual handed mode that my guess that both Viper and F16 boats will continue to race together to build numbers on the start line and also help clubs gather big enough fleets to put on top class events. Perhaps in the long term then we may see the Viper go SMOD events as per Hobie has done, if numbers build enough for AHPC to splash the cash on event sponsorship.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 10:37 AM


Quote

The Viper is a great boat, as are all the F16s and F18s, but they really don't meet the Olympic profile.


Isn't that exactly what the IOC and we are trying to change ?

Wouter


Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 10:47 AM

Quote

Aren't f16 sailors worried about their class if the viper is selected?


To be quite frank, I'm more worried about our ISAF membership / recognised status then the Viper F16 becoming an Olympic class. Afterall, the Viper will do so as a SMOD class and formula classes is where the future is. Maybe this is the best of boths worlds. Development in the F16 class, then every 5 or 10 years or so a trickle-down to the SMOD Viper. That is basically what happened to the Taipans 4.9 too and avoids another chupahooka disaster like the last Olympics. Also the Viper is pretty close to where our scene is with respect to design. It is today's cat technology and I'm sure the carbon mast will be fitted when it is selected as all olympic sailors really want that (Viper F16 => 120-125 kg and allowed under F16 class rules thus no problems). Of course, there is already experience with carbon masts in the class so it won't be a dud either. As such the Viper F16 will be a good showcase to the larger public. It will be a viable cat design for many years to come, worthy of replacing the Tornado (less then 10% slower and on a par with modern F18's). It will also be the better of all dinghies by a huge margin, all without the issues of an perceived open class unequalness and it will allow female sailors to shine. As people say; it simply checks alot of boxes.

Other then that, we have weathered heavier storms then that over the last 8 years (think, selling luxury goods during 3 credit crunches 911 (2001), dot.com bust (2003) and world recession (2008-2010) + going heads on with the competing products of other bigger builders (F17 FX-one F18-HT etc).

Besides the F16 class doesn't have a full developped scene yet that may be disrupted like the F18 or the A's. Sure we'll see some effects, but nothing to fret over. Current owners have the boats for the love of them not because of any long term plans.

We'll be alright.

As far as I know (but correct me if I'm wrong) the F16 class and boat owners are also not of the mind to (officially or publically) vote against the Viper F16 as an Olympic class or spinnaker class (as the H16 class might). Unlike what the F18 and A-cat class and owners have done.

All the lines seem to link-up quite nicely in the case of the Viper F16.

However, with ISAF one never knows !

Wouter
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by ACE11
Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.


I disagree. The B-class/Tornado boats have other features that made them impractical to most - most of which is the beam that is outside legal trailering width. Every other 8.5'+ boat has gone the way of the dodo bird although I admit to being hopeful and enthusiastic about the F20c. I hope it is the Viper if nothing else so I can be proven right when the Olympic class boat choice will actually be a boon to the class.
Posted By: ACE11

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by ACE11
Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.


I disagree. The B-class/Tornado boats have other features that made them impractical to most - most of which is the beam that is outside legal trailering width. Every other 8.5'+ boat has gone the way of the dodo bird although I admit to being hopeful and enthusiastic about the F20c. I hope it is the Viper if nothing else so I can be proven right when the Olympic class boat choice will actually be a boon to the class.


I'm not sure about that Jake - F18's are wider than legal trailer width in AUS - and many are trailed on the tilt. The rest take the risk of not getting caught. They are still sailed to some extent here although numbers seem to be declining.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by ACE11
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by ACE11
Paul

I think you are right. If the Viper were selected all the other F16's would soon wither on the vine just as the other B Classes did when the Tornado was selected.

Devon

My point was that the boat and sailing needs to be exciting and spectacular to get the public interest. Otherwise we are just serving up the same boring stuff as the slugs which has caused the IOC to rethink the involvement of sailing in the Olympics.


I disagree. The B-class/Tornado boats have other features that made them impractical to most - most of which is the beam that is outside legal trailering width. Every other 8.5'+ boat has gone the way of the dodo bird although I admit to being hopeful and enthusiastic about the F20c. I hope it is the Viper if nothing else so I can be proven right when the Olympic class boat choice will actually be a boon to the class.


I'm not sure about that Jake - F18's are wider than legal trailer width in AUS - and many are trailed on the tilt. The rest take the risk of not getting caught. They are still sailed to some extent here although numbers seem to be declining.


6 inches difference is one thing (our legal width in SC, USA is 8 feet as well - it varies from state to state in the US)...but we're talking about an 18" or 24" difference. You're not going to sneak by with that.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 02:04 PM

Quote
Aren't f16 sailors worried about their class if the viper is selected?


I attribute it to a difference in "class" culture. Sure, many of the issues that apply to the other formula classes are applicable to the F16 class and the whole uncertainty of "what will happen" can be painful. However, my observation has been that most F16ers are comfortable with the box rules defining the class and not any single builder. The latest ISAF designation as the International Formula 16 class grants an additional layer of confidence in the box rule's stability.

AHPC builds a great F16 and does a admirable job of marketing, including leveraging one boat competitively across two classes (104 & F16). Achieving Olympic class status would be another feather in the cap. Should AHPC elect to pursue Olympic status for the Viper, I believe most F16ers will support them so long it is not at the expense of the F16 rule set. There are a lot of pro's and con's for AHPC to consider, and I am confident that they have looked at it from every possible angle.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Or are we putting Mike Tyson kind of persons on sail craft now ?


Yes we do. But that is OK. The genetic lottery decides for you what sports you are best suited for. Fact of life in all sports.


Olympic status for the Viper or any other F16 design is a risk to the F16 class. The B-class did not die becouse of the width but becouse all the talent choose to sail the T.
The choice between buying a Viper and sailing world cups at Hyeres or Kiel + F16 regattas, or exclusively F16 regattas is pretty easy for most. Media attention will be on the olympic design, the "hot-shots" will be there etc. There lies the obvious risk, and it is a huge risk.

Evaluation events have been arranged two times previously for multihulls. In the 70s leading to the selection of the Tornado and in 2000 where the Tornado with spi and double trapeze was selected. There have also been evaluation of other gear like skiffs for females. In all these evaluation events any manufacturer have been welcome if they filled a pretty wide set of criteria. At least as far as I know.

In the 2000 evaluation event the M20 with uni rig was a favourite of the sailors. There were also other cats present but I dont remember exactly which. Tiger and a NACRA design? Anyway, the evaluation event have had the sailors score each craft and then there are scores for somewhat more unsubstantial values in each craft.
I expect the one-design Tornado to be present. The M20, NACRA20banana, Viper, Tiger, Infusion, WildCat, Spitfire, Falcon, Hobie 16 with spi etc.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 03:03 PM

Personally (i.e., not an official position), I view the Tiger and the Viper as good candidates for the same reason; because they are both slight outliers (Tiger due to design age, Viper due to weight), the selection of either would do little damage to the respective classes, yet still allow Olympic teams to compete in larger fleet events in addition to the Olympic Classes events. The B-side to that hit record is that the members of the F16 and F18 fleets would continue to get top-notch sailors at their events. We'll see what happens.

As far as the evaluation process goes, that is in motion now. Criteria will be established, boats will be submitted, and it appears there will be an on-the-water evaluation as before. First, the people that set the criteria will be selected - not sure exactly how that is going down, but that starts the ball rolling.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 03:27 PM



... F18's are wider than legal trailer width in AUS ...

Another box checked with the Viper F16, at 8.2 feet width is it legally trailerable the world over. (and boy, do I remember the heated debates we had about that when the class rules were formed)

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Personally (i.e., not an official position), I view the Tiger and the Viper as good candidates for the same reason; because they are both slight outliers (Tiger due to design age, Viper due to weight), the selection of either would do little damage to the respective classes, yet still allow Olympic teams to compete in larger fleet events in addition to the Olympic Classes events.


I would say that is the positive asessment on the risk. The negative is death of a formula class. The only precedent is the B-class and the selection of the Tornado.
This really is a question on psychology and manufacturer spin. Will the percieved advantages of owning a olympic one-design in a formula fleet outweight the disadvantage of being locked in to one-design rules? Only way to find out is to actually see what happens if one of those designs are selected. Personally I think the possibility of participation in the world cup events, olympic status and mingling with the rock stars will be more than enough to do damage to a formula fleet if choosen.
On the other hand, there might be something completely different like a M20 with banana boards that ends up as the olympic multihull. Or the Tornado gets another go (that is a fantastic boat, also for mixed sailors)
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 05:58 PM

You have forgotten the versatility of the F16 class unlike the T's and B Class, not all sailors want to sail with the rockstars, not everyone wants to sail always with a crew, an awful lot though want to be able to launch a light weight cat either as a single hander or with a crew and compete at the front, at their local club race.

The boat that would pose a problem to the F16 class would be if a fully compliant boat became the Olympic boat and some of the new designs such as the Falcon and Raptor are good enough for that role.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 06:05 PM

I see your point but consider what the backbone of an ISAF international class is made of, and how that backbone is created.

I dont want to contribute to creating a problem where there is no problem currently so I'll keep it quiet.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/15/10 11:08 PM

There is another precedent. The Europe is/was a one design spin off of the moth. The difference however was the Europe was already 30 years old and out dated with respect to moths when it went Olympic in 92. I guess it would be like picking the Tiger.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/16/10 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mugrace72

Only the H16 makes sense under the apparent scheme. That makes you a potential Olympian Bob.


already got that t-shirt.
Posted By: claus

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 11/16/10 08:46 PM

I see it difficult for a 18" or even 20" design to be a mixed boat. Mean weight for a man in Europe is about 75 kg? For a woman 55? This would give a combined weight of 130 kg. From my experience on both boats, for a H16 this is perfect, on a Tiger/F18 with the big sails this is not enough (for 15 knots+). Eastern countries even will have difficulties getting up to 130 kg. How can a Tornado or other 20" cats be an option for a mixed crew? If I remember right, optimal weight for the T was around 145? I think it should be easy to get close to ideal weight for a lot of teams, especially young ones!
Posted By: Luiz

ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz
I am worried about two things:

2) The exclusion of the Star will activate a strong lobby of old, rich and famous professional sailors.



The lobby stats, as expected. Follow the link to the Star website or read the transcription (the blue text and bold were added):

ISAF Excludes Men's Keelboat for 2016
By Bill Allen , ISCYRA President
Nov 15, 2010, 21:58

At the recent International Sailing Federation Annual Conference in Athens, Council voted to accept a slate of events that does not include a men’s keelboat. In a 19-16 vote, a 10 event slate was tentatively approved encompassing:
• Men’s and women’s sail boards or kite boards
• Men’s and women’s 1-person dinghy
• Men’s and women’s 2-person skiffs
• Mixed 2-person dinghy
• Mixed 2-person multihull
• Men’s heavyweight dinghy
• Women’s keelboat

A final vote to confirm these events will be taken in May, 2011 at the ISAF mid-year meeting. The Laser, Laser Radial, Finn, mixed 470, and Elliott 6m were approved as equipment for their respective events. The remaining equipment (classes) will be selected based on “evaluation trials”.

This slate of events was recommended by the Events Committee, which considered a list of events, including keelboats, developed by the ISAF Olympic Commission. From the discussion during the week in Athens, it was clear that the Olympic Commission and many Council representatives wanted to move toward increasing the number of high speed sport boats for better television and Internet coverage.

The Star class fully supports the ISAF decision-making process and the eventual outcome. We understand and appreciate many of the challenges ISAF faces in making our sport more attractive to the media and we believe the Star can make unique and valuable contributions in this area.

The Class had a strong delegation in Athens to argue the benefits of keelboats as athletic sport boats and their value to media presentation. Star Class Vice Commodore Harry Adler from 2016 Olympic host Brazil (and also first sponsor of the Grael brothers, father of two olympic medalists in Star and Soling, former council member, etc.), International Vice President Claude Bonanni, Executive Director Barbara Vosbury, Athletes representative Mark Reynolds, and Class measurer John Koopman spent long hours discussing our great class with ISAF attendees.

There are two arguments that seem most compelling. First and foremost, keelboats are where many of the heroes of our sport compete. Star Class champions are among the most recognizable names, and excluding them from Olympic competition is denying the media the established stars of the sport. Second, one of the objectives of the Olympic Commission is to have “diversity of physiques;” yet all of the other boats have very narrow weight ranges. Other than the Finn, all male competitors need to be less than 85 kilos.

Over the next several months we'll continue to work closely with ISAF in a positive and constructive manner as we continue to attempt to convince ISAF Council members that keelboats should be represented in the 2016 Olympic Games. Members are also encouraged to contact their Member National Authority (MNA) officials or ISAF Council members to argue the benefits of including keelboats.

Regardless of the final outcome of the 2016 Olympic event selection process, we will continue to thrive as a class and move forward. The Star is the premier one-design racing keel boat in the world and for 100 years Star sailors have led the way in advancing the sport of competitive sailing. Our 2010 European Championship set a class attendance record with 140 entrants. We possess more talent, resources, and commitment than ever before in our history.

Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 05:13 PM

Bill is a class act and represents his constituents very well. I enjoyed meeting him and look forward to seeing him again in May.
Posted By: Twister

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 05:27 PM

Yes he is. I have met him while I competed in many star regattas. I am probably a very rare active Cat sailor and Star sailor. I would love to see them both in the games!
Posted By: brucat

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 06:30 PM

JW, for the next meeting, we need to get you guys some T-shirts, hats or something:

5 and 5

I can even hear a chant...

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 07:15 PM

May sound silly, but US Sailing actually made up lapel buttons for "5/5" and wore them, passed them out, etc. Bill is (of course) a big fan, too.
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 08:01 PM

Would someone 'argue the benefits of including keel boats', in particular 'woman's keel boat match racing'?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/17/10 09:16 PM

The biggest benefit in including male keel boat is it makes a better case for split male and female cats. Multihullers should support the Star over the finn for this reason.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Scarecrow
The biggest benefit in including male keel boat is it makes a better case for split male and female cats. Multihullers should support the Star over the finn for this reason.


+1
Posted By: Jake

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 12:51 PM

An apparent Paul Henderson leak posted on the front page of Sailing Anarchy this morning:

Quote
like he sees 'em

Paul Henderson was asked by the ISAF to give his thoughts on their Olympic decisions. We got 'em...

Olympic Events: (On request of the President) CONFIDENTIAL

Assumptions:
Sailing will continue with 10 Events and 380 athletes for 2016.
Olympic Sailing should err on side of “Talent over Technology”.
Encourage inclusivity not exclusivity.
The vote on the Events takes place in November 2011.
The Equipment (Classes) are picked in 2012.
Format, Fleet or Match, to be done 3 years before but should be done also in 2012 with exceptions.
Experience with 2012 Women’s Match Racing will put this in place. Match is exclusive. Fleet inclusive.
(Council made error by deciding Women’s Match Racing in 2007 as that is Format.
Women's’ Keelboat is the Event.)

Solid Classes:
Men’s Singlehanded: Laser Standard
2) Women’s Singlehanded: Laser Radial
3) Men’s Keelboat:
4) Women’s Keelboat:
5) Open Doublehander: Skiff: 49er (no reason to change)
6) Men’s Heavyweight Singlehander: Olympics must not become a Junior small peoples event.
The Finn has served sailing well and should be retained until something better comes along.

Comments: There should be Keelboats because of facilities required for the Paralympics.
Also it is where the best names in Sailing show up which is what the media likes.
The media likes personalities more than they like equipment.

Tough Decisions:

History:
It has been done before that an event is held out of the Games for a period and then brought back. It has usually been done to change equipment as was done with the FD and Tornado.
Windsurfing was originally brought in to show the cutting edge of our sport as distinct from the traditional aspects as shown above. Windsurfing 40 years ago was the new “Extreme Sailing”.
For the next decade every other car going down the highway had one on their roof.
Now it is in strong decline and should be dropped for 2016. 40 years was a good run.
Skiing is a good example as they have replaced events with Snow Boarding disciplines. Speed skating has also met the challenge with Short Track.

Kite Boarding is the new “Extreme Sailing”

Must make the decision to drop the 470 and Windsurfing Men and Women.

Bring Cats Back: (Kinetics are minimized)

It was right to drop the Tornado as it had become very expensive and exclusive succumbing to technology.

7) Men’s Cat: (model to be a modern Hobie 16 with their same “Laser” mentality)
8) Women’s Cat:

Kite Boarding: “Extreme Sailing”

Take a leap of faith and put Kite Boarding in for 2016 as we did with the 49er and Windsurfing so many years ago. Format does not need to be decided till 2013. ISAF will have two year to massage the format to have a sensible equipment and competition.

9) Men’s Kite Boarding
10) Women’s Kite Boarding

“Fools go in where Angels fear to tread”

Respectfully submitted,
Paul Henderson


10/18/10
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 01:31 PM

Hope that someone listens

5 / 5 might well happen yet
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 01:52 PM

Quote
7) Men’s Cat: (model to be a modern Hobie 16 with their same “Laser” mentality)
8) Women’s Cat:


Leaving open the question.... What is the modern Hobie 16?

IMO, everyone's boat favorite boat selection choice is dismissing this major factor... the simple minded boat.

What would the world look like if the Hobie Wave is selected for the Olympics AND we get men's and women's single handed cats?

Gender equity... check.
Individual athlete focus.... check
Multihull Check
Affordable, Popular, Low entry barrier for non sailing nations. Check.
instantly recognizable by the world... Check... More people have probably sailed a wave at a resort over the past 5 years then have sailed a performance cat... Hobie 16 on up.

hmmm... down load Beatles tune... revolution from itunes.... hmmm.




Posted By: Jake

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


hmmm... down load Beatles tune... revolution from itunes.... hmmm.



I just want my iOS 4.2 dammit. I'm done with Apple as soon as someone builds a reasonably competitive/functioning products (and when I'm up for a new phone). I'm tired of stuff not working and nobody addressing it and this "mysterious" marketing crap they have going on. I've got a $1500 head unit in my truck and an iPhone 4 that won't automatically connect or stay connected after a manual connection through a simple bluetooth connection - the previous iOS system worked just fine.

Sorry, now back to your regularly scheduled program....
Posted By: P.M.

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

I'm done with Apple as soon as someone builds a reasonably competitive/functioning products (and when I'm up for a new phone). I'm tired of stuff not working....

Jake, give this a read
Newsweek October 11, 2010
Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 02:47 PM

I'd heard that he wrote this before the meeting in Athens. It isn't very surprising; he's been pretty consistent. I'm glad he concludes there should be two multihull events, but he really doesn't have much reasoning behind it, other than to say again that he likes cats because there are "no kinetics," which is an incorrect assertion. So, yay! He agrees with us! And, Boo! He doesn't understand why...
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
[quote]What would the world look like if the Hobie Wave is selected for the Olympics AND we get men's and women's single handed cats?

Gender equity... check.
Individual athlete focus.... check
Multihull Check
Affordable, Popular, Low entry barrier for non sailing nations. Check.
instantly recognizable by the world... Check... More people have probably sailed a wave at a resort over the past 5 years then have sailed a performance cat... Hobie 16 on up.


What ....and risk our class being ruined? grin
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 05:32 PM


[/quote]

What ....and risk our class being ruined? grin [/quote]


Your class has no class now. I guess you did not here what Reggie was wearing a couple weeks ago. I hope the A class can straighten him out.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 05:41 PM

Fantastic read over at the Daily Sail.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 06:25 PM

Thanks John.
Posted By: Mugrace72

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dlennard


What ....and risk our class being ruined? grin



Quote
Your class has no class now. I guess you did not here what Reggie was wearing a couple weeks ago. I hope the A class can straighten him out.


Yeah...I know Dave. I would love to do the A-Cat thing (without Spandex) but I am so hard on boats, I'm sure I would destroy one in short order, or worse, someone elses.

I guess I will just have to battle Rick for the Olympic berth.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 10:53 PM

The more I think about this, the more the keelboat thing concerns me. I'm not worried that they'll be stupid enough to kill cats, but something has to go. There's just no way in the world that they'll be able to sell the IOC on building facilities for women's keelboats and not have a men's keelboat. And, as I mentioned before, and as was just verified, the keelboat guys (ISAF) will use the Paralympics as a tactic all the way to the bank.

What amazes me is that no one seems to be calling BS on the Finns. If you're too heavy to sail a Laser, nothing is stopping you from sailing any of the crewed boats, so there is no great "conspiracy" to keep heavy people out of sailing. What am I missing here (other than the obvious hidden agendas)???

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 10:59 PM

I think you'll find that the Stars view the Finns as the soft target. I would not want to be in that knife fight.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/18/10 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
I think you'll find that the Stars view the Finns as the soft target. I would not want to be in that knife fight.


Agreed and the way they may go about is via the "why 2 S/h mono's and no mens leadmine; They MIGHT just push the 5/5 approach....

Or are we all being double-talked and that the current state of play is designed to be replaced at the next meeting to 5/5 !
Posted By: John Williams

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 12:29 AM

Stars firmly want the 5/5. In that we have an ally. It is the 470s and Finns that are opposed, for understandable reasons.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 12:34 PM

In reply to guys like Henderson; I'm in full support for the following line-up of 10 Olympic events


Mens and Womens doublehander - F18's and F16's
Mens and Womens singlehander - A-class
Mens and Womens singlehander Heavy skippers - F16's
Mens and womens Match racing - Extreme 40's (use the same facilities as the paralimpics)
Mens and Womens (figleaf) monohull - laser dinghy. (But could be replaced in backroom deals by kite-surfers or foiling moth)

I guess we fully see eye-to-eye in that respect.

With kind regards,

Wouter
Posted By: pgp

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 12:43 PM

I was on SA yesterday and it seems a number of Laser sailors are not happy with that boat. There is some criticism of it being antiquated.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 02:15 PM

best response so far ;-)

I love how no one has ever thought, or at least spoken allowed, about putting in Kite surfing and windsurfing freestyle competition.

Skiing and Snowboarding have done it (snowboard cross, half pipe, skicross), I think it is time sailing gets with it and puts similar stuff in (kites could have big air, speed runs, or different style of racing, boards could have slalom like races, trick stuff, whatever they currently have).

Come on, lets make this fun. Heck, lets have slalom style cat racing, just pure speed with basic reaching like legs and lots of marks. I can imagine a race course that is a bunch of "slightly higher then a reach" upwind legs, then one kick butt downwind run, one loop, winner takes all.

Lets have some imagination....

Originally Posted by Wouter
In reply to guys like Henderson; I'm in full support for the following line-up of 10 Olympic events


Mens and Womens doublehander - F18's and F16's
Mens and Womens singlehander - A-class
Mens and Womens singlehander Heavy skippers - F16's
Mens and womens Match racing - Extreme 40's (use the same facilities as the paralimpics)
Mens and Womens (figleaf) monohull - laser dinghy. (But could be replaced in backroom deals by kite-surfers or foiling moth)

I guess we fully see eye-to-eye in that respect.

With kind regards,

Wouter
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 05:47 PM

Moth would be a cool singlehander. Checkout this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRNfx317oLU
Posted By: pgp

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 06:07 PM

Wow! What is the antenna thingey on the bow for?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Wow! What is the antenna thingey on the bow for?

The spring loaded wand at the bow works like a sensor, when it reaches a certain speed it extends and
changes the pitch of the horizontal foil at the end of the centerboard thereby lifting the whole thing out of the water.

IMHO the IOC will never allow the Moth as it is today though, to much development going on (like wings!):
Posted By: Timbo

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 06:14 PM

That "thing" is a feeler which adjusts the picth of the foil so the boat doesn't jump up out of the water.

OK, here's what we need to "develop", a flying Catamaran! All we need to do is figure out how to scale up the wings these guys made for their windsurfers and put them up on half a mast, and bingo, it's "up up and Away!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CODHj3GrQes&feature=related
Posted By: dacarls

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/19/10 06:36 PM

Hey.... no poaching by kibitzers...
Timbo was invited to come to Gainesville to sail one of these that actually works (<--- see my avatar thumbnail).
Ain't seed Hide nor Hair of the Ol' Boy.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/20/10 12:07 PM

I'll get up there one of these days Dave! Just before Christmas I have to drive up I 75 to Auburn to pick up the kids...and 3 horses...so if I have some time and the weather's good, I could drop in on my way up. If not that trip, then maybe two weeks after Xmas when I return them.
Posted By: dacarls

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/21/10 06:43 AM

Deal- lemme know.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/22/10 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
...it seems a number of Laser sailors are not happy with that boat. There is some criticism of it being antiquated.


Quoting Julian Bethwaite: "the Laser was not designed for races".
Posted By: Stewart

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/22/10 04:51 AM

The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..
Posted By: windswept

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/22/10 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..

In public that is what they say. I think that some of the developmental issues that played a part in the last Olympics did not bode well for the Tornado. Sail development has been a part of the last 2-3 Olympics, from materials to design. That is why the class is promoting SMOD for the class.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/23/10 04:50 AM

Tom that is another red herring.. "development". 470s, stars fins all develop each year.

Fact is its a political game. Trying to gain advantage for the relevant "NA" to get another medal at Olympic level. Thus the outright lying and Machiavellia behavior of the USA NA during the vote on Ts.. Then they and the NZ NA got upset when caught pulling themselves.


Still a class has a optimum range of crew weights. The tighter the rules the tighter the window of crew weights. Only a formula open or development rules allow enough latitude to give a wide crew weight ability.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/23/10 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
The challenge is Ts were dropped due to their cost and not "technology". Stars are much more expensive and thus exclusive..
So based on this all keelboats should be dropped from the Olympics..

As for the "legends" aruments.. I guess we could ask Mohammen Ali to fight Jo Frazier for an Olympic gold medal.. They are "legends"..


Something I hadn't thought of, which I think is a valid reason for keeping keelboats, is that the keelboat infrastructure is required for Paralympics. If you remove the requirement for this stuff at the Olympics, it could affect venues not wanting to invest for the Paralympics; Sad, but probably true.
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/23/10 04:12 PM

>Something I hadn't thought of, which I think is a valid reason for keeping keelboats, is that the keelboat infrastructure is required for Paralympics. <

Would the the Hobie Trapseat/program work for the Paralympics?
Posted By: windswept

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/26/10 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
Tom that is another red herring.. "development". 470s, stars fins all develop each year.

Fact is its a political game. Trying to gain advantage for the relevant "NA" to get another medal at Olympic level. Thus the outright lying and Machiavellia behavior of the USA NA during the vote on Ts.. Then they and the NZ NA got upset when caught pulling themselves.


Still a class has a optimum range of crew weights. The tighter the rules the tighter the window of crew weights. Only a formula open or development rules allow enough latitude to give a wide crew weight ability.

Oh I believe that it is a red-hearing, but it was definately used as a reason. I may be the only one out here that thinks that the Tornado for many reasons is still the best boat and class for a 2016 multihull. I do not think that changing from open to mixed changes it all that much.
Posted By: Gav F18

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/30/10 03:31 AM

Hi guys. I've been lurking for a while and finally thought I'd put in my 2 cents (feel free to ask for a refund). If we look ahead to mixed crews and the boats available there's a few options avaiable:

T: Proven track record in Olympics. Bit big for mixed crews worldwide (yes, the current world champs are mixed but this is the exception rather than the norm). This is the turnkey solution.

Hobie Tiger: Proven manufacturer. Can be sailed with mixed crews. Boat sits within F18 class rules but also has "the blue sticker". So, if someone decides to campaign for the olympics they have the best of both worlds. One design racing for Olympic qualifying spots and an incredibly strong F18 fleet to participate and train in. F18 association don't get their nose out of joint because it's a dated design that top F18 sailors won't go back to thereby offering protection to the ideals of the class, while still promoting it.

16 foot high performance: Probably the Viper as it's a great boat with a track record and production capacity. It's size will mean the sailors will have to be lighter.

H16: Great as the "Laser" of the multihull world. Global participation. But, it's a H16.

Custom Design: Not likely as there's enough manufacturers out there with an option already.

Any others? Is one of the above a stand out against the rest?
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/30/10 04:21 AM

That's a well informed and fair summary

I wonder anyone at Isaf thinks the same!
Posted By: brucat

Re: ISAF Excludes Men's KEELBOAT for 2016 - 11/30/10 05:58 PM

Agreed, that was quite possibly the best post in this thread. Mostly factual (let's face it, all of this is subjective), and right to the point.

As for ISAF's "thinking," the only thing (that's currently in contention) that I'd put money on for Rio, is that in one way or another, we will see keelboats for men.

Mike
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 12/04/10 06:20 PM

-1
Posted By: Gav F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 05:15 AM

....bump

I think I remember the decision on this being in May. If so then someone, somewhere knows the answer already....
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 08:02 PM

I vote for the Formula 16 Class. The future of the F 16 builders and owners would be best served by having the 2016 Games as a goal. I bet the Class would enjoy great prosperity.

The US Formula 18 Class Association passed on the invite to my understanding. Did the F 18 International governing body lobby for inclusion?

I have heard from an ISAF Race Officer that cats are in as a mixed team. Which platform is best suited for this honor?

We should know by May.

Viper 2010
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 08:13 PM

Duck and cover!
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 08:48 PM

I think the Viper One-Design would be the best mixed team platform. I assume they will probably have an evaluation event before they decide. Of course the way ISAF goes I'd say we are not yet guaranteed to have any multihull. You just never know until the end. The meeting is early May.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:05 PM

Bert:
Originally Posted by catandahalf
Did the F 18 International governing body lobby for inclusion?


Previously address:
Originally Posted by John Williams
The International F18 Class has made a submission for the meeting in Athens; the Class supports a multihull event, but does not support the selection of any existing F18 design. The Council was unanimous on this wording, but it was contentious getting there - some wanted to make it crystal clear to the current builders that the Class feels strongly the selection of an F18 for the Games would be bad for the Class. Stronger wording was considered. Letters to the manufacturers were considered. In the end, a point of view that I agree with prevailed; the Class can't stop a builder from submitting their boat, and the relationship between the Class and the builders needs to remain positive and cooperative.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:16 PM

Whatever boat that is selected, it would great if they can replicate the fairness achieved with the Hobie Alter Cup. All teams rotating on identically manufacture supplied boats.

Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
I vote for the Formula 16 Class. The future of the F 16 builders and owners would be best served by having the 2016 Games as a goal. I bet the Class would enjoy great prosperity


It would be neat if they allowed it to be a class but it will never happen. Arms race and the concern that the boat, not sailors, won the medal. However, I always point to bobsledding and ask how is it different.

Choosing a boat that is part of formula class will test the class and manufacture's resolve but it can work if everyone remains civil.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
but it can work if everyone remains civil.


kiss YOU!!!!!!!




































sarcasm there. not serious in the slightest.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rooPPLtK9pg&feature=related
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/09/11 09:59 PM

Washington's 110 Rules of Civility & Decent Behavior

So much for #49. LOL!
Posted By: Gav F18

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 05:05 AM

I wonder if it will stay mixed...I heard murmers last week that it may go back to open from one of the national multihull team coaches. (Asian nation)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 07:30 AM

Oh PLEASE.... let this be true!

When somebody can point to an elite World Class MIXED Sailing competition .... I will change my opinion... Until then... MIXED is a political bastardization of all that is sport and sticking this red letter on multihulls is just wrong!

Open works in multi's... Open can work in a 470 (I think).... We should tell the women's lobby to go to hell.... they sold their soul for match racing... (hmm.... not sure how sailing an Elliot gets them into the AC45 series... but I am just .....errr.... what's the word from the past... ... oh yeah... a pig shocked for relating these observations)
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 03:24 PM

Mark, don't be a troglodyte. Not all women in sailing want a keelboat. Few women in multihull sailing want a Tornado (i.e., most don't). But they do want into the Olympics. "Open" effectively closes the door in their face. Look ahead, not back.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 03:57 PM

If we know anything it's that open = men.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 05:39 PM

John

you have made this argument before

Quote
Open" effectively closes the door in their face. Look ahead, not back.


This "close the door: is BS and is ONLY True when you couple it with the equipment choice.... Pick an F16 boat for open and I BET the Olympic participation will match the number of women pursuing an Olympic dream world wide.....

Realize... If women don't want to play... should you generate an Olympic discipline for them?..... Woman's multihull does not fly in 2010 BECAUSE THERE ARE VERY FEW WOMEN who want to play!... at ANY level of the sport, much less Olympic.

Second point ... our debate is based on our interpretation of the politics of olympic and MNA Sailing world wide ... I have no inside information.... you have a bit more... After the decisions are made... I hope somebody will dish the actual politics and at least attempt to explain why mixed is good for our sport. So far... the ISAF women organization is playing the game BETTER then the Mulithull organization.

Finally, You say..."look forward" and you see a path forward... You have argued... its a start (err BACK in in the show actually), and it's a slippery slope that favors us to increase our Olympic participation in the future.... The problem is that Slippery slope argiments are a numbers game...(not a logical outcome). If we don't generate sufficient women racing mulits world wide... there will be NO drive to increase the sport to Men's and Women's Olympic classes. Consider the total number of Tornado Olympic Teams world wide at the end of the last multi quad .... Perhaps 40... Can you make an argument that with 20 elite women Olympic Mixed team sailors... and No rank and file participation world wide that the IOC would approve this sport?.. ... ... Do your really believe that these numbers warrant two cat disciplines? The women's multi competition simply won't be viable ... Can you make the argument that Olympic mixed will be so popular that participation goes through the roof at all levels.. .... Grade I regattas are closed out ... Hmmm ... Count all the mixed teams at NA's World wide and you don't get enough interest... much less international interest. I just don't see your path forward.

I look forward and see a cul de sac... I see that when you accept that your sport is a country club social sport... (mixed)...never before contested in the world... you have surrendered credibility and you will never recover....

With the AC45s now sailing... WHY would we take the ISAF offer and make this deal....

Bob
"Open = Men...." Correlation is not causality.

Nevertheless we probably agree that this is a physics problem... ANY class chosen will have a size and weight optimum... the olympic guys and gals will figure it out in about 2 months.. Will it be biased towards men.... upper body mass, strength etc... Perhaps.. IF you restrict the tweaking within the class.... you narrow the competitive window.. (but increase the cost).... Pick your poison. I agree that men's and women's disciplines is the proper way to go (if there is interest).... Open is a compromise.... Pick a boat that works for small people, big people, what ever ... ... Mixed doubles is a cul de sac with no good outcomes.

John, RE... cut the women some slack... NO!
If somebody can come up with some data that shows that elite women sailors are underrepresented at the Olympics... We could actually debate the issue from a common starting point... Fact of life... we have had a 6-4 or 6-4 + OPEN split since the modern games began.... the "women are underrepresented" argument is rarely the major issue or even a strong point ... IN FACT... the women s ISAF committee don't even make that argument... THEY Voted to take a 6-4 split so long as they got match racing... greasing the Tornado's exit from the games. I do sympathize with the elite women currently in the game and recognize that their Olympic careers will time out and a long term solution is NO Solution for them. Looking forwards to the big picture, assuming sailing remains Olympic... we should not compromise and wind up in a cul de sac side show.

ps... I was going for Neanderthal.... the Geico Cave man look works for me!
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 06:38 PM

Kris - Since teams represent their separate nations a rotation plan is no joy. They are supported by coaches. The Israeli team had a seventy foot tender and coach boats for their athletes in Miami - charter, I'm sure. Nice big flag...the Greeks were not far behind in style points.

If the Formula 16 is selected in May the onus will fall on US Sailing to begin funding the medal Class by 2012 and supporting its invitation to the 2012 Miami OCR.

John has the best weather forcast from his inside awareness. If anyone can get money, from US Sailing/Alpha Graphics, for the cats, it is John.

Let's keep the faith.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/10/11 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
Kris - Since teams represent their separate nations a rotation plan is no joy.


Huh? frown Teams still represent their separate nations but instead of bringing a tweeked boat and sails of their own, they would compete on a supplied fleet and rotate through each boat to eliminate any perceived biases. Code 0 anyone!
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics - 03/11/11 02:28 AM

Mark
This argument was settled 23 years ago.
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