Compass/GPS on F-18s ????

Not the Canada f-18 thread, so here it is.
What are the thoughts?
Does the distraction equal the advantage?
I think not on a marks course.
What else?

I guess I better move this over here.

Originally Posted By: David Ingram
[quote=Dlennard I would also like to see the facts on where distance to start line and mark location has made a team better than one that does not have it on beach cats.


Okay Dave just for fun I'll turn it back on you, show me evidence where those types of devices don't improve your starts.

The way the process will work is the technical committee will write up the rule for these devices present it to the WC and then the WC will vote. Hopefully the WC will poll the fleets and vote in such a way the repesents the wishes of the fleet.

[/quote]
Dave,

How can I they are not legal so we can't use them and I don't know any one that has used that feature because it was too much trouble to ping the line and marks. I am fine with not using the line distance kind on stuff I just would like to get the device I like and if it has that feature just not use it. It will just be hard to enforce and write a good rule.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/

Data one way or the other just isn't going to happen.

But, one can make general inferences, and mine is, it really isn't going to matter.

There are (at most) two people on the beach cats we race. There isn't a separate tactician, or any other guys hanging around with nothing to do but ping the boat and pin, then watch the system and try to figure out where to start. Even if there were, there are always boats that are OCS in the big boat fleets that use such devices (they have all the toys you can imagine).

IMHO, the cost issue is the ultimate red herring. Our boats cost $10,000 (H16) to over $20,000 for F18s and such. Unless these devices start to cost at least $1,000, you're not even making a dent. Admittedly, this is a huge pet peeve of mine, especially when the cost argument is used to justify not allowing VHFs to be used while racing (and you can buy one of those for under $100).

Mike

Once we opened the door and went to spinnakers there has been no turning back.


Okay, I'm leaving now.

There was an informal vote taken on this topic at the North Americans in Racine, during the class meeting. A large majority wanted to limit electronics to a watch and a compass.

It was a census not a vote, I was corrected too so I'm just passing it on. :-)

....and it was about 2 to 1.

How was this presented? What pros and cons were considered?

I don't care which way this goes, and am all for doing what the sailors want, but what is the issue?

Do people really think gadgets are going to affect the results? I just don't see it happening. The best sailors will always win.

If nothing else, sailing without instruments actually makes you a better sailor. You focus on what's important: boat speed and keeping your head outside the boat to look at the conditions and your competition.

Doug Baker was one of the best H16 sailors for many years, and never even used a bridle fly. Drove people nuts when he beat them, especially those folks who had 62 tell tales all over their sails.

I say, let them use the gadgets (with class approval, of course). It will just make the spread even larger.

Mike

Unless the marks start carrying locating equipment that the electronics can pick up, I just don't see any advantage in having that stuff on a 2 man boat. You simply can't input enough data into the thing that won't be undone by the first windshift. Perhaps...and just maybe you would have enough time to in a large fleet race to ping the pin and the boat and get a distance to the line reading - but so what? I think it would be an incredible distraction and not so much of an advantage. I really believe that if you are using your electronics for anything other than a quick reference / gut-check in our style of racing that they are actually a disadvantage. There are so many other things you should be looking at.

What's the goal? To keep the rich guys from outspending us regular joes? They still have to sail.

Granted, my dog changed color and species, but I think a honeymoon period for those types of electronics should be considered to see if they do make a difference. If the consensus is that they do...$hit-can 'em. The a-cat class is pretty smooth in the way they watch and slowly consider new developments until it starts to look like it might be detrimental to the class. I think there's something to be learned there.

I did not get to go to the NA's this year and missed the meeting so I don't really know what happened with the new rule that just came up about electronics. It does look like the US changed it to allow speed and compass. Why don't we just do away with the rule unless it starts to become a problem. I don't know of any issues we have had before the new rule. I think it is fun to see how fast you have gone (this actually hurts us as Mike wants to go faster and some time causes a wipe out) and to look at your track after the race on a computer to see where you made mistakes.

Are the Garmin 201s still available? I like them better than the 301s and 401s.

Dave

Have you guys ever heard of the Shadowbox?
Wakeboarders use it to replay their tricks to see how they can improve, with some software modifications I think it could be a very usefull training tool.
http://www.thegadgetguycolumn.com/sports-health-fitness-gadget/shadowbox-wakeboard-analyzer/
http://www.shadowboxlive.com/

It is fascinating for me watching this instrumentation thingee beginning to happen. I remember very clearly the first " flight directors " appearing in the gliders I used to fly and then GPS navigation becoming integrated into that " flight direction ".

It was truely amazing the very short time it took for the users to adopt the technology and an even more amazing,the short time for the instrumentation to become better than the pilot to " direct the flight". One thing for sure guys it is going to happen considering the size of the market and one thing for sure it will enhance our sailing experiance, what it will not do though is make the poorer sailor better than the best sailor, it simply moves the goal posts equally for everyone.

The one odd thing for me has always been why has it taken so long considering the development of big boat instrumentation over the last ten years.

considering the usa aerospace industry still uses 11/64" nuts i wouldn't hold your breath about change...

and every time i carry my waterproof mobile-phone the gov. knows exactly where i am as it is gps enabled

i have to pay extra to know my coordinates but the cell station knows where the phone is whenever it is on to within a few meters

Discontinued but there are 2 listed on eBay right now.

Thanks Kris!

Dave

Why not get the 301? I think it has a magnetic compass.

Disposable batteries compared to built in rechargable.

Yeah, that's my issue.

It will take NiMH batteries but I guess recharging is a little complicated.

the units that take external batteries are not NEARLY as waterproof as the units that have the rechargeable batteries inside. That's multiple experience right there.

well its not so much the batteries themselves - I could care less - its more an issue of the battery door and the ubiquitous "Tawd fix" for the band/pin issues on all the foretrex units. On the 201, we take liquid nails and "glue" the band to the unit so when the pins do pop out of the housing, the unit isn't lost to Neptune. On the 301+, you'd have to glue it to the battery door, which would make taking the batteries out quite ... difficult.

the battery door leaks like a sieve so it doesn't matter if you can keep it connected to the band or not. It will be shot after one day of wet sailing.

Anybody care to list the units readily available on the market that ONLY have speed AND compass? The Discontinued SC-1 has that in limited mode but has pinging and VMG in deluxe mode. How do you make a competitor not use the different features or know they didn't? That would be the only one I know of.

Funny, this thread has turned into a tangent of a tangent (debating gadget models vs. whether they should be allowed at all vs. Canadian champs coverage)...

Eric, I love the 11/64" nuts reference!

Mike

All the Velocitek devices can be run in various degraded mode. From completely blank to just compass, to compass and speedo and then VMG/Start line and other niceties.

same with the Nova Sail unit. It has a "class mode" that disables the gps functions.

and i have impellers on my cat, but i promise only to use them when i am losing a race, and no one will see me

Re. GPS mounting, here's my homemade setup:




Unit self-tacks with mast rotation. Display is easy to read by the helmsman from well back on the hull, even trapped out on the 10 ft beam Tornado. This is the Sail Nauteek SC200 .

On short bouy type courses, I think less is more, get your head out of the boat, look for the next shift, puff, etc. rather than looking at your instruments which will only show you what just happened, not what is about to happen...

On a longer course, where you cannot eyeball the A mark or on an empty horizon where you cannot see the shore to notice a slow headder, a compass is essential, and speed is nice, but you may spend too much time watching the numbers vs. watching for the next shift.

This sport is a lot like flying airplanes, you have to keep your head on a swivel and be scanning everything, all the time, gliders now have an audio Vertical Velocity Indicator so the pilot can hear a tone which changes from low to high pitch as he gets into or out of lift, so he can keep his eyes outside looking for...other gliders!

Sure I would love to have such a system on board but I'm not sure it would make me a whole lot faster, the really fast guys can see the shifts coming and tack before they get there. If you wait for your compass to tell you, well...you're late.

There is a provision in the class rules for distance races and GPS, for the F18 fleet anyway.

Did anything official ever happen with this?

Not yet Bob. I know John submitted the write up for the technical committee but I haven't seen anything from the fleet regarding a ruling. Should be very soon though.

I don't believe there will be a rule change. If there is, it might not be until 2012. The current rule isn't worded the best, but it is what we have for now.