Catsailor.com

See the F20c in person

Posted By: mikekrantz

See the F20c in person - 10/11/10 03:27 PM

Sorry for such short notice, but we'll be in Annapolis this Wed - Oct 13, doing sea trials and evaluation for Sailing World magazine.

If you are interested in checking it out in person - pm me and I'll try to work you into the schedule.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/11/10 04:51 PM

Where are you launching from Mike?


Hell... if you stick around for the weekend... West River is hosting the Pumpin Patch regatta... Should be 20 cats or so. With F18's N20's F16's A cats and perhaps a few Hobies.

Mark

Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/11/10 05:10 PM

I'm launching from a private residence. I don't have the location yet...

Wish I could stick around for the weekend, but already have a commitment to be somewhere else.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/13/10 04:40 PM

We're launching off the beach at River Drive, just south of Back Creek.

We'll be here until sunset.

-Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/13/10 05:50 PM

Hope there's wind (enough to get to 16 knots anyways) :P
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/13/10 07:21 PM

Thomas Point Light NOAA Station

5-10 this afternoon and evening. Tomorrow, Friday, & Saturday are suppose to rock, 15-20.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/14/10 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
We're launching off the beach at River Drive, just south of Back Creek.

We'll be here until sunset.

-Mike

UUHHHHH,The SAILboat show was last week.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/14/10 02:01 PM

Hey Einstein,

He's demo-ing the boat for the BOTY awards. Not the boat show :P
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 12:28 AM

Tad,
This is a sailing site for catamaran sailors please post somewhere else. Try "SA brown noser.com" or "look at my post count . com" they might fit you better.
As usual, you still need a taller glove.

Where's my rum and my harness?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 11:58 AM

Quote
Where's my rum and my harness?


Being held until further notice.

Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 06:12 PM

Dave and I had a great time in Annapolis with the boat, too bad it was only a day trip.

We set up and went out about noon, the breeze was a steady 15, sun was out, and temps were in the 60's.
We chased down and passed the Gunboat 66, a few Farr 40's, and various other boats on the bay.
About 4:00 we met up with the Sailing World judges, and the plan was to take them each out for about 20 mins, then spend an hour or so going over the boat and debriefing afterwards.

I got the first judge on the boat, we went sailing and after a while the support RIB comes roaring up and tells the judge that it's been an hour, his time is over, and let someone else come sail the boat. It went on this way for the rest of the day, and we ended up sailing until the sun set. The most common comment of the day, was "I used to sail a Hobie 16, and this ain't no Hobie 16!!!"

Needless to say it was a great outing, and think we'll get some good press out of it for catamaran sailing in general.

Also, while we setting up and tearing down the boat, I lost count of the number of passerbys, neighbors, and people that were driving down the street that stopped to check out the boat, ask questions, and were very curious what kind of catamaran it was. It generated a huge amount of interest in general.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 07:17 PM

Sounds like you had a great day Mike! I can't wait to read the write up from Sailing World. BTW, did you drive each and every judge or did two of them take it out? I only ask because I would think they wouldn't have the knowledge to max perform the boat without an experienced driver/crew on board, and unless the boat is being maxed out, well...they could poo-poo it.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 07:25 PM

They were all very experienced sailors. I went out them one at a time, gave them the helm, pulled the strings, and gave them some feedback on sailing the boat.

Dave stayed on the beach and answered all of the tech questions, etc.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 07:39 PM

Sooo...any of them ready to come over to the...Dark Side?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 07:56 PM

i don't think any of them would turn down an invitation to go sailing on a cat with spin
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 08:54 PM

I dont know what all the fuss is about smile

F20C test session
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by macca
I dont know what all the fuss is about smile

F20C test session


Looks like a lot of fun.

So what happens when you put your weight way forward and try to stuff it?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 10:22 PM

AH-OOO-GAH

Dive, dive, dive....
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/15/10 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
AH-OOO-GAH

Dive, dive, dive....


lol. So the curved boards go from rising planes, to dive planes....

Boat looks like an absolute hoot to sail. I'd be screwing around waaaaayyyy too often just to get it to lift clear.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by macca
I dont know what all the fuss is about smile

F20C test session


OH DAMN.

I gotta get me one of these. With my heft I could make the whole thing stand on its sterns :P
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 05:44 AM

if you can't see the youtube video (some countries are not able to ...)

try this link:- F20C Rib video (Vimeo)

Posted By: wildtsail

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 12:19 PM

Mike.. did you get Chuck Allen from North Sails out? He's usually one of the BOTY judges.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 12:23 PM

yes, Chuck was one of the judges. He had a blast.
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 10:51 PM

looks like quite an awesome boat. I want one. replacement board has to be at least 800$ though. that would suck.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/16/10 11:52 PM

Replacement board I heard was $1300
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/17/10 12:02 AM

I paid that for my first Hobie 16.
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/17/10 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Replacement board I heard was $1300

are you friggin kidding? I was thinking 1k, but wanted to give them the benefit of doubt.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/17/10 02:51 AM

Macca said the boards are same as the infusion boards price wize.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/17/10 06:32 AM

I said:- it's comparable to an F18 board in price/size ratio

The F18 board is smaller and hence cheaper. The F20 boards are doing a lot more than a normal daggerboard, so don't underestimate the complexity of their job!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/17/10 08:41 AM


Quote

I said:- it's comparable to an F18 board in price/size ratio

The F18 board is smaller and hence cheaper. The F20 boards are doing a lot more than a normal daggerboard, so don't underestimate the complexity of their job!



Remember this when Macca makes another (broad) statement in the future guys !

With him there is always a catch !

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 07:48 AM

Wouter, you are without a doubt a world class clown.

I don't think i could have made it any clearer in my statement: the price/size ratio is comparable to the F18... pretty freaking simple really! The F20 boards are clearly bigger so they are more expensive but not 4 times the cost etc..

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 09:12 AM

I have to side with Wouter on this, Macca you do have such a subtle way of avoiding direct dialogue, with words which direct sideways any real meaning. You should be a politician, mind you there is a problem, no one any longer believes a politician. wink
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 09:20 AM

Wayne, I am not going to quote spare parts prices in here for the simple fact that there are different prices in each country due to local variations and taxes etc. So I think its pretty reasonable to make a comparison between the F18 board costs and the F20 to point out that the board is not stupidly expensive compared to a "normal board"
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 10:52 AM

So where did the personal attack on Wouter come into it.

Macca you always have a smoke and mirrors message with everything you write, we have simply become used to it. When people are asking you straight questions, give a straight answer and we would all be better off.

If Nacra design the board correctly, there is little in extra cost in materials and time to produce it over a normal board ( the surface area is not unsimilar ), in theory then it should be a similar price to a normal F18 ? My bet is that won't be the case.

Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 11:04 AM

Wayne, again you simply just don't understand how stuff is built. The material costs in building the curved boards correctly is more than a straight board, the time is more also. The internal structure is very hard to build. Consider this: to have a high density stringer inside an F18 board is pretty easy, you just insert a straight spar in the build process. Now how do you do that for the curved f20? You have to make the stringer pre curved and the loads (as you can see from onboard video) are very high. So you need to make the board suitably strong.

keeping that in mind, the price of a F20 Carbon board is not drastically different from a F18 board, especially when you consider that the board is larger as well.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Wayne, again you simply just don't understand how stuff is built.


Macca you come straight back with the above statment, you know full well that I know more than most about this sort of thing and yet you still put it in writing. This is typical, time you put a bit of thought into things before putting it out on the net.

A curved spar is no more costly nor time consuming to make in mould than a straight spar. May I also remind you that a curved structure is always stronger in one direction than a straight structure which is inherantly weak in both directions, I think the Romans proved that a good few years ago.

As I said earlier you are all smoke and mirrors.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 11:40 AM

Wayne, I have no idea how much you do or don't know about the subject. But your statements on the matter to date have led me to believe that you have little knowledge. and it has been said that there is nothing more dangerous than someone with a little knowledge of a subject... If you can build curved foils for the same cost as a set of straight boards then please tell us all how to do it. But remember they have to be strong enough...
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 12:54 PM

Macca like yourself, compared to some on this forum I know very little, what I do know is that a dagger board is simply built in a process which is no different whether it is curved or not.

Yes you are correct, there will be additional loads requiring additional layers of strengthening fibres, but those fibres will cost little in the comparison to the materials over all costs. I'm talking 10's of dollars rather than 100's.

The highest cost of these type of products is the R & D but over a volume product then most of these costs can be absorbed into quite small numbers per item produced.

Its time we took the ohhhh factor out of curved boards, they have been around a very long time ( the very early Farriers had them way back in the 80's ) and got on with the job of learning how to sail with them as one thing for certain, the marketing boys and girls have them in their sights as the next holy grail and will push them hard in the next few years, what ever their worth.

As I have said before, I will reserve judgement on their worth until classes such as the A class, where the light weight of the platform should enhance this type of structures useage, have firmly come on side.
Posted By: Acat230

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 12:58 PM

Macca,

I'll put a break in the exchange between you and Wayne. In the test video, it looks like it's a bit too easy to get a "wheelie" with the boat which while cool to watch, does not seem fast in a straight line. Our experience with the curved boards in the A-Class is to fine tune to get just enough lift to keep the bows up but not much more. Some of the A-Cats are using trunks that allow adjustment of the daggerboard fore and aft rake for different conditions.

It looks like you are always sailing with the windward board at least half up both upwind and downwind. Towards the end of the video, there is a shot of the boat sailing upwind on port tack with the leeward board up about 4-6 inches. Do you think the boards may have too much lift potential (like they experienced with the first iteration for the M-20)? Just curious if there might be more fine tuning.

There is still a lot to be learned about curved daggerboards for sure.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca like yourself, compared to some on this forum I know very little, what I do know is that a dagger board is simply built in a process which is no different whether it is curved or not.

Yes you are correct, there will be additional loads requiring additional layers of strengthening fibres, but those fibres will cost little in the comparison to the materials over all costs. I'm talking 10's of dollars rather than 100's.

The highest cost of these type of products is the R & D but over a volume product then most of these costs can be absorbed into quite small numbers per item produced.

Its time we took the ohhhh factor out of curved boards, they have been around a very long time ( the very early Farriers had them way back in the 80's ) and got on with the job of learning how to sail with them as one thing for certain, the marketing boys and girls have them in their sights as the next holy grail and will push them hard in the next few years, what ever their worth.

As I have said before, I will reserve judgement on their worth until classes such as the A class, where the light weight of the platform should enhance this type of structures useage, have firmly come on side.


Wayne, you can think what you like, but its pretty stupid to try and tell me the component cost breakdown of developing and building these things. I know because I have been involved from concept to production. You are making assumptions without any practical application or first hand knowledge.

And to use the A class as a measure of the boards viability is a fallacy as I have pointed out in another thread. But if thats the measure you want to use then go ahead...
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Acat230
Macca,

I'll put a break in the exchange between you and Wayne. In the test video, it looks like it's a bit too easy to get a "wheelie" with the boat which while cool to watch, does not seem fast in a straight line. Our experience with the curved boards in the A-Class is to fine tune to get just enough lift to keep the bows up but not much more. Some of the A-Cats are using trunks that allow adjustment of the daggerboard fore and aft rake for different conditions.

It looks like you are always sailing with the windward board at least half up both upwind and downwind. Towards the end of the video, there is a shot of the boat sailing upwind on port tack with the leeward board up about 4-6 inches. Do you think the boards may have too much lift potential (like they experienced with the first iteration for the M-20)? Just curious if there might be more fine tuning.

There is still a lot to be learned about curved daggerboards for sure.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230


Bob,

Its not too easy to get the boat to foil in the extreme, it takes a specific set of circumstances controlled by the sailors in order to make the boat do that trick. In racing conditions the crew have total control over the behaviour and the boat just simply goes faster than you could expect a boat to go.

The windward board will generate lift on the windward side and aid hull flying, so its good to have it down when you want to get the hull up, but after that its quicker to have the board up a little to reduce the windward hull lift.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:14 PM

are the dagger trunks on the new Nacra curved, or are they a big empty box that allows for the curvature of the board?
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:17 PM

Curved
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by macca

Wayne, you can think what you like, but its pretty stupid to try and tell me the component cost breakdown of developing and building these things. I know because I have been involved from concept to production. You are making assumptions without any practical application or first hand knowledge.

Now thats another rash statement, without knowing my history I might just have a bit more knowledge than what you think, have a look at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212505&page=1
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:29 PM

Oh, ok then. Its clear to me now that you are very experienced in curved foil development and production.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:33 PM

I might be very experianced, then again in your words " But your statements on the matter to date have led me to believe that you have little knowledge. and it has been said that there is nothing more dangerous than someone with a little knowledge of a subject..."
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:36 PM

And by showing me that link you are displaying your knowledge of foil development and production? I thought they looked like Stealth foils in the photo's. So I am yet to see anywhere that you have knowledge of foil design, development or production.

correct me if i'm wrong though...
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Acat230
Macca,

I'll put a break in the exchange between you and Wayne. In the test video, it looks like it's a bit too easy to get a "wheelie" with the boat which while cool to watch, does not seem fast in a straight line. Our experience with the curved boards in the A-Class is to fine tune to get just enough lift to keep the bows up but not much more. Some of the A-Cats are using trunks that allow adjustment of the daggerboard fore and aft rake for different conditions.

It looks like you are always sailing with the windward board at least half up both upwind and downwind. Towards the end of the video, there is a shot of the boat sailing upwind on port tack with the leeward board up about 4-6 inches. Do you think the boards may have too much lift potential (like they experienced with the first iteration for the M-20)? Just curious if there might be more fine tuning.

There is still a lot to be learned about curved daggerboards for sure.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230


Bob,

The F20 boards can go under the boat more than the A providing more lift than the A boards. You have to get pretty far back on the boat to make it wheelie.

Wayne,

You know they make a PM button so you and Andrew can have your disagreement offline and the rest of us don't have to wade through all your post to see what is going on in this thread.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 01:41 PM

Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:05 PM

whats the warranty like for the boards?
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.


Macca didn't start this thread, Mike Krantz did.
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda? Ye doth protest too much.
I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop, sales spiel or not.
Wayne,
By your comment about Pm's ,it rather appears you want this in the public eye ,not Macca.

Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:47 PM

If you break a board in normal sailing then its covered. If you run into a whale, beach, rock or other object etc then its not covered!
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:49 PM

Oh, and the F20C dagger board is approx 20% more expensive to buy (retail) than a new F18 dagger board.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.


Macca didn't start this thread, Mike Krantz did.
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda? Ye doth protest too much.
I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop, sales spiel or not.
Wayne,
By your comment about Pm's ,it rather appears you want this in the public eye ,not Macca.



Thanks Todd

That was the same as I was thinking. If you don't have a positive comment to make just keep it to yourself. Andrew has been very helpful with the setup and learning to sail the new boat for us.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Macca didn't start this thread...

I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop...


Absolutely.

Macca interjected here to set the record straight, and to just give some information. I'm glad when any industry rep does that, it raises the quality of the discussion.

If the reps and industry folks don't get out here on the forums, every single freaking time the thread turns into a bunch of garage speculators, whose boat design and industry experience was attained from a gutter boat that they drunkenly built and raced at some regatta.


I'd rather hear Macca.


j
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda?
Macca has a well documented history of relentlessly (understatement) pissing off many on the F16 forum. What goes around, comes around I guess. Nacra should take note that if anyone else was delivering the message, there probably would not be the animosity as a result of Macca alienating so many.
Posted By: Acat230

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 04:31 PM

Many in the A-Class believe most of our boats in the future will either have curved daggerboards or straight boards that have canted trunks within the hulls (like the Flyer II). A straight board in a canted trunk produces a lift component similar to a curved board. Then there is a fast boat like the A3 with straight boards and non-canted trunks.

Curved boards are not necessarily faster, they just allow you to continue to push the boat in conditions where you might be backing off with straight boards. In light air, straight boards are probably better.

Any manufacturer would be wise to not overhype (the new DNA A-Class builder has a promising boat but is big on marketing spin). The curved boards are sexy and cool looking but if not executed properly, could be slower. There is no Nacra F-20C with straight boards or straight canted boards to compare to my knowledge. The only curved boards at the LAC were on the ill fated Aethon and while they felt there was an edge in breeze, they were not sure if they would have the same pace in lighter air.

Fun stuff.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 04:33 PM

Catsailing Anarchy anyone? grin

Mike, Dave, macca - cool boat, deserves to be BOTY. It's a shame that this thread has degenerated. As Kris said, it's probably a direct result of previous posts by macca elsewhere. Personally, I'd just like us all to pull in the same direction for the benefit of catsailing and not piss on each others choices of boat. There are a lot of monoslug sailors out there to convert!
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 05:24 PM

Here's some pics that Walter Cooper took last Wed. I'm sure some of these will make into print at Sailing World.

http://www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?userid=wcphoto&gallery_id=2302735
Posted By: orphan

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 05:56 PM

Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk

can hardly tell who's sponsering... smile

the pictures are great btw
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time.


Really?
Posted By: pgp

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 06:42 PM

"Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time."

Pay back.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 08:01 PM

Sorry, I hadn't been on the f-16 forum and didn't realize he had all of y'all's panties in a bunch. I hope it stays over there from here on out, but I doubt it.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
"Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time."

Pay back.


Maybe it's time they grew up...
Posted By: Jake

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 08:13 PM

I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time. The foils on the F20c are truly a piece of art. They're very very light (they float!) and they're obviously very strong. I've not yet seen an early generation a-cat with curved boards that doesn't have some sort of issues with the fit/function of the curved boards in the trunks either. These boards fit very well in their trunks. They come up so easily (and float), you have to watch that you don't hit your forehead when raising the board because of the radius that it travels!

The fact that they can make these boards available within 20% the price of an F18 straight board is pretty good.
Posted By: pgp

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 08:18 PM

"They"?
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 08:44 PM

Macca didn't you say that there is a twist in the foils as well? Can you post some close up shots of them?
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 09:01 PM

Its a secret smile

But I will see what I can find, there is nothing on my laptop but maybe, just maybe I can take a photo next time i have a board in my hands.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 09:36 PM

Has there been any on the water research of how boards actually behave during sailing in terms of twist and curve?
I saw a wildcat board a while ago which got a permanent curve after a few months of sailing (board was always used on one side).
What about making a small peekhole just in front of the daggerboard well and mount a gopro-like camera?
Could give some interesting information.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 10:27 PM

'There is no Nacra F-20C with straight boards or straight canted boards to compare to my knowledge.'

I remember reading a thread and post by Macca that they built two prototypes, straight and curved boards. He had stated that in all the conditions the curved boards were faster. Right?

Anyways, cool boat, continuing to 'push the envelope'.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/18/10 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by orphan
Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk

can hardly tell who's sponsering... smile

the pictures are great btw


Note that Mike (the owner of said F20C) is also the Zhik NA distributor. So he's sponsoring himself - and does a damn fine job of it I may add.
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 12:07 AM

No doubt. Gets to write the expense of the boat off too I think.

Who did the graphics?
Posted By: Luiz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
...making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time. The foils on the F20c are truly a piece of art. They're very very light (they float!) and they're obviously very strong...


From my limited experience:

- An asymetrical foil is slightly more difficult/expensive to make than a symetrical one. The same goes for its trunk.
- A curved foil is a little more difficult/expensive to make than a straight one, if built from female molds. The same goes for the trunk. Making the plugs and molds is obviously more expensive, though.
- A curved foil built over CNC machined foam can be extremely expensive, although easier to laminate, if the reinforcements are smartly designed.
- The number of localized reinforcement layers in a lifting foil increase as the vertical load grows as % of displacement.

Each of my boat's straight assymetric boards was designed to lift 50% of displacement, which is probably close enough to the F20c foils, from what I saw on the video.

My foils were built about eight years ago in a small Brazilian shipyard in foam/glass/estervinylic - and they also float. In view of that, the fact that the F20c carbon boards can float is meaningless.

If they are building the F20c foils from female molds as we did, its price depends on the materials, weight and number of layers, labour following the number of layers.

It seems reasonable to charge 20% over the price of a straight symetric foil of similar build (female moulds, same materials, same technique).

However, if they are not building over CNC machined foam, the prices should be a lot lower. I hope this is what is going on, for the quoted prices are outrageous.

Just my opinion, of course.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 12:51 AM

The graphic "design" was done by the design staff at Zhik working from a line drawing of the boat.

Fellow catsailor Jake at Green Room Graphics supplied the vinyls for the main and jib, I used a local source for the hull wrap, and the spin was done at Performance Sails.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time.


I don't understand this. Yeah you'll have a bit more aluminum(or whatever metal they make molds out of), and a bit more time into drawing it, but 4 axis machining is nothing new. The actual laminating tools themselves can't be that different. You will pay a premium for the machining as not every hick machine shop with cnc capacity can do it.

I realize you're covering the cost of all the R+D to come up with a final product with all of subsequent parts that come out that mold as well.

What could be more complicated about laying up material in a curve, vs in a straight line?

I honestly know next to nothing about boat construction, so there's my disclaimer.
Posted By: Jake

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Jake
I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time.


I don't understand this. Yeah you'll have a bit more aluminum(or whatever metal they make molds out of), and a bit more time into drawing it, but 4 axis machining is nothing new. The actual laminating tools themselves can't be that different. You will pay a premium for the machining as not every hick machine shop with cnc capacity can do it.

I realize you're covering the cost of all the R+D to come up with a final product with all of subsequent parts that come out that mold as well.

What could be more complicated about laying up material in a curve, vs in a straight line?

I honestly know next to nothing about boat construction, so there's my disclaimer.


Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid. The plugs are quite large this way. The molds will be much larger in comparison to a flat board so they have a flat surface on which to sit while being worked on. Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk.

These boards are also quite long. Considering how heavy the I20 boards are and the different kinds of loads the F20c boards are under, I think they're pretty marvelous.

OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.
Posted By: catman

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 01:14 AM

Wow. I ask a little question about the price of a board and......

How many of the people that are arguing with Macca are considering buying a F20c? If your not then.........

The reality is if I bought this boat I would get a second set of sails and a spare set of boards and rudders. That's the reality of racing a boat like this.

I think the boat from what I've seen and read is awesome. Nacra (and that means everyone involved) should be proud of what they created and I'm glad to be able to learn about it here.

It would be better without the background noise though.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid.


No it doesn't! dowel it, bolt it together in parts. If machined well, it would need zero touch up work at the seams beyond the polishing that would have to be done regardless. If Uncle Larry can have a Cobra chassis built out of billet aluminum, something simple like a dagger mold can't be that bad, (size wise). And have a billet aluminum chassis that can hole up to a 600hp side oiler.

Quote
Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk.


The loads can't be that bad. When I bend up laminations for curved parts I do them on particle board molds and I'm putting a huge load on the mold when its getting clamped up. I'm not sure what it actually would be, but 20 pipe clamps cranked on hard is a whole mess of pressure. If particleboard can handle the loads, something stiff like aluminum, not being loaded up at all during layup should be fine. And if it is an issue, bolt or weld some bracing to it then bolt or weld it to a stand.

Quote
OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.


That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jake

OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.


Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built).

My not-post-cured glass/estervinylic/foam foils lift a boat that is over 2000 lb (approaching 3000 lb fully loaded) at less than $1300 each. I don't think their density is remarkable, if anything I would bragg about their price smile smile smile
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Jake
Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid.


No it doesn't! dowel it, bolt it together in parts. If machined well, it would need zero touch up work at the seams beyond the polishing that would have to be done regardless. If Uncle Larry can have a Cobra chassis built out of billet aluminum, something simple like a dagger mold can't be that bad, (size wise). And have a billet aluminum chassis that can hole up to a 600hp side oiler.

Quote
Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk.


The loads can't be that bad. When I bend up laminations for curved parts I do them on particle board molds and I'm putting a huge load on the mold when its getting clamped up. I'm not sure what it actually would be, but 20 pipe clamps cranked on hard is a whole mess of pressure. If particleboard can handle the loads, something stiff like aluminum, not being loaded up at all during layup should be fine. And if it is an issue, bolt or weld some bracing to it then bolt or weld it to a stand.

Quote
OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.


That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking.


Karl, I dont understand why a ferrari costs more than a hyundai, I mean they both have 4 wheels and an engine...

And let me assure you that its not possible to have a flat pack mould that bolts together... next we will have Ikea doing them!

Sure, its possible to build a curved board in your backyard, but to do a production quality run with repeatability, control and warranty is not such an easy task.

Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it?
Posted By: engineer

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 10:04 AM

What?? Is it gang up on Macca Week???
Did I miss something???;)
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by macca

Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it?


Go faster goodies without a light weight boat = witchcraft.

Must be why the F16 deity won't allow themselves near them.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 12:43 PM

Quote
Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built).


At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided


At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?


I really really hope Nacra will stick with that bit of marketing by Macca, my guess there must be a few bean counters running over profit margins and thinking someone really screwed that one up.

At the sort of cost being promoted, a number of the bigger boats ( think Nacra F20 for one ) must be thinking about buying and converting to this style as the performance gain being advertised would be a huge gain for not a lot of cost.

Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance.

I have no problem with Nacra producing a boat like this as my feelings are why buy a F18 which is over weight and out of date in a couple of years.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Undecided


At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?


I really really hope Nacra will stick with that bit of marketing by Macca, my guess there must be a few bean counters running over profit margins and thinking someone really screwed that one up.

At the sort of cost being promoted, a number of the bigger boats ( think Nacra F20 for one ) must be thinking about buying and converting to this style as the performance gain being advertised would be a huge gain for not a lot of cost.

Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance.

I have no problem with Nacra producing a boat like this as my feelings are why buy a F18 which is over weight and out of date in a couple of years.


Originally Posted by waynemarlow
[quote=Undecided ]

At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?


Wayne, I said the board was 20% more than a new F18 board, and that's correct. Bean counters did their job and thats the price.
Posted By: pepin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 02:32 PM

A top of the line autoclaved carbon daggerboard for the WildCat made by Reverie UK cost €1000/£880/$1400 plus tax.

Add the 20% greater cost quoted by Macca to that and the target price for a curved board on the Nacra 20 should be around €1200/£1060/$1660 plus tax.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by pepin
A pair of top of the line autoclaved carbon daggerboards for the WildCat made by Reverie UK cost €3500/£3100/$4850 plus tax. Note that those are a bit longer than the regular boards at 192cms.

A set of Reverie boards costs a bit less then that at £1906 (€2168) per set incl.VAT
http://reverie.ltd.uk/Downloads/ReveriePriceList-Retail-11-09-2009.pdf
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow


Hey all the knockers of F16 boat owners being on an open forum, this is an open forum after all and we might be just interested in the F20 to take more than a passing glance.


Keep that in mind while you're bitchin' about Macca commenting on F-16s in an "Open Forum". You sound like you're quite the hypocrite.
Personally, I like knockers.(.)(.)
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking.


Karl, You're becoming so PC. grin

So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built).


At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?



If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is:

a) amortization of the more expensive plug
b) a few extra layers of carbon
c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...)

20% might be more than enough.
Posted By: pgp

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
[/quote]

So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.


From the outset. There are two mind sets: 1) the world isn't big enough for another boat; 2) the more the merrier.


Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing

So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.


Not aware there was a start, I think you maybe are reading more into this, than there really is.
Posted By: Jake

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
Sorry Jake, but a density below 1 is not really a feat, especially if it is achieved using carbon/epoxy/honeycomb cured in an autoclave (supposing that this is how they are built).


At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?



If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is:

a) amortization of the more expensive plug
b) a few extra layers of carbon
c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...)

20% might be more than enough.



Look, the quality of that F20c daggerboard is, bar none, one of the highest quality foils I have encountered and in line with the customer stuff I've seen on some of the hot shot F18s and A-cats. I've designed and built composite tooling, used it, visited the Nacra Factory, sailed a **** load of Nacras and Hobies, etc. It is a deal to be able to purchase that daggerboard within 20% of the standard F18 straight boards. It is extremely well made, light, and finished. It doesn't just "barely" float either. It floats by a lot.

If you guys have some sort of other "short boat" issue, take it elsewhere. It's becoming tiresome and you're starting to repeat yourselves.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 04:56 PM

And wait till you see the new F18 boards, same level of finish and toughness.

Our teams have been sailing with them since before the worlds and despite being longer than any other board we have not broken any, despite some pretty serious thrashings of pre-production boards by our teams in conditions that have seen a lot of other boards fail..

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 05:13 PM

Macca: Do you know if you can retrofit the new boards to existing boats? (upgrade kits?).
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 05:41 PM

Tony, I'm sure nacra will sell a pair of boards to you sight unseen.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 05:45 PM

It will be possible, we have an insert for the existing case that you glue in place and then the new board fits perfect.

New boards are not yet available, but will let you know when they come in production. Alternatively you can get a free set with every 2011 model Infusion smile

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

If you guys have some sort of other "short boat" issue, take it elsewhere. It's becoming tiresome and you're starting to repeat yourselves.


Check out the posters boat who you were having a pop at, you maybe surprised, certainly no " short boat " there laugh
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by macca
It will be possible, we have an insert for the existing case that you glue in place and then the new board fits perfect.

New boards are not yet available, but will let you know when they come in production. Alternatively you can get a free set with every 2011 model Infusion smile



Figures. My two new boards just came in from Performance and they are already outdated. Just my luck I guess.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/19/10 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Karl, I dont understand why a ferrari costs more than a hyundai, I mean they both have 4 wheels and an engine...


We ain't comparing Hyundai's and Ferrari's. We're comparing Hyundai's to Hyundai's. Its a slight variation, not a whole new frickin' breed of animal. I said it before, I don't know much about boat building. As far as I know you're laying a pliable material into a mold, whether its got a curve or not, I don't see the difference, but I would like too.



Originally Posted by Macca
And let me assure you that its not possible to have a flat pack mould that bolts together... next we will have Ikea doing them!


Okay if you say so, plenty of things are bolted together that hold up just dandy under some very extreme loads. But I still would like to know why. I like to learn things, and just saying "no" wrapped up in your ****/kunt like attitude isn't enough info for me. What Jake was getting at is that a giant block of material can get expensive, especially when most of it is going into the recycling bin. Furthermore if it is really big then there are issues of finding people that can deal with it, which if you're in a niche market you get to charge pretty much what you want and tell people to go screw themselves with a smile while they pay you knowing they'll be back because there just isn't any other options. Like I said, if a billet aluminum race car chassis can be machined and assembled and hold up to what a track and a whole mess of hp can throw at it, I don't see why something simple like this can't be done that way as well. Or, perhaps its something that hasn't been explored yet in this application and should be? There's always a better mousetrap to be built, or a better way to build it(whether it improves the product or the production), regardless of what you manufacture.


Originally Posted by macca
Sure, its possible to build a curved board in your backyard, but to do a production quality run with repeatability, control and warranty is not such an easy task.


Never said anything different. I'm just curious why you say the boards are soooo inexpensive, yet say production is soooo costly. That business model doesn't hold up for too long.



Originally Posted by macca
Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it?


Give it time and it probably will be, right now its still in the voodoo magic category. Sailing has been around for how many thousands of years? How long did it take to just be able to go to weather? How far has it come in the past 50-25-10-5 years? I'm in the camp where I'd like to see the A-cats, F18's, and F16's (or whatever) take advantage of everything they can in both material and design.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:26 AM

Hi Macca

How are the boards layed up?

Are Nacra using male foam (with stringers) with Carbon over the top or carbon skin with epoxy foam that is then clamped? I assume the former, Just wonderin' !
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:53 AM

Would you like the full laminate spec published?? smile

Lets just say that there is an internal structure, not only foam.

As we currently build trouble free foils and others are not, I'd like to keep it that way!!
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:56 AM

OK we have the price of the boards now nailed down, in writing, and explored the where with all of their build quality, by the way the price Macca is quoting seems a bargain to me considering the speciality and the numbers that will be sold.

Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future.

Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view that the foil has to be balanced in just the optimum angle of attack to gain best speed benefit, now that optimum AOA on a boat as short as 20ft is going to be difficult for the average sailor, shorten it further to say a 16ft boat and is that going to be ubber difficult.

On the other hand when things are right, the boat in theory will be faster, one only has to look at the Moths to convince ourselves of that.

Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion.
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
OK we have the price of the boards now nailed down, in writing, and explored the where with all of their build quality, by the way the price Macca is quoting seems a bargain to me considering the speciality and the numbers that will be sold.

Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future.

Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view that the foil has to be balanced in just the optimum angle of attack to gain best speed benefit, now that optimum AOA on a boat as short as 20ft is going to be difficult for the average sailor, shorten it further to say a 16ft boat and is that going to be ubber difficult.

On the other hand when things are right, the boat in theory will be faster, one only has to look at the Moths to convince ourselves of that.

Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion.


Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 09:12 AM

I think anyone who wants to make comments on the advantages or otherwise of the curved foils on a boat like the F20, Should sail the boat before they put strong opinions out there.

As I am one person with time on such boats and also completed a lot of testing between identical platforms with only the foils changed. I can tell you that the curved foils are better. Sure you have to learn how to sail with them. Same as we had to learn how to sail with kites on cats... but would you go back to a non kite boat now??? For me the foils are as big a step as adding the kite was. Its seriously that much of a difference in the way you sail the boat.

But for Wayne to say that curved foils on a 20ft boat will make it difficult to sail is a rash and unjustified statement with no basis of fact or experience. We have some very "normal" customers sailing the F20 and its no problem for them to get the best out of the boat.

Its not theory, its tested and proven.


Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 09:45 AM

<**** and it will fail just like so many other good products that has been and gone because the product couldn't live up to expectations.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 10:17 AM

<**** and it will fail just like so many other good products that has been and gone because the product couldn't live up to expectations.

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

now that optimum AOA on a boat as short as 20ft is going to be difficult for the average sailor, shorten it further to say a 16ft boat and is that going to be ubber difficult.


Wayne, you did make the statement above... so where have I misquoted you?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 11:03 AM


Any one can cut sentences about to mean anything you want it to, people are not stupid and will have read the whole sentence in the context meant, grow up a bit please.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 12:37 PM

Clarify for me then: are you saying that it will be difficult to sail with optimum AOA with curved boards on a 20ft boat and to directly quote you "ubber difficult" on a 16ft boat?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 12:54 PM

I think its important to consider that not all c-boarded cats are created equal. Whereas most of the C-board cats thus far have been A-class and C-class cats and some marstrom 20's, its difficult to call the platforms even and comment on the performance of the boards alone.

I'm wagering that the F20C behaves much differently than an A-cat with curved boards. Sure they may share some similar behaviors, but I'm willing to bet that the differences in platforms account for a significant change in behavior.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by macca
I think anyone who wants to make comments on the advantages or otherwise of the curved foils on a boat like the F20, Should sail the boat before they put strong opinions out there.

Amen. Nothing worse than being opinionated about something you don't have experience with. Too bad the F20c was not able to hang out for the weekend in Annapolis/West River. Next time!
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 01:33 PM

Macca can you talk a bit about the development process? On boats that were built prior with curved foils, what didn't work and how are these foils a step forward from prior attempts?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 01:37 PM

Having sailed a gazillion miles (give or take a couple) on A-cats, F-18's, N-20's, and the infamous 18HT. I think I'm somewhat qualified to compare the various platforms and the difficulty it takes to extract maximum performance.
The F20c is no more difficult to get up to speed than any of the others. There are some nuances that you need to be aware of, fore/aft weight placement and board height are significant adjustments. However the boat provides lots of feedback to help you make those corrections. Anyone that has spent enough time most other cats will recognize this, and pick up on it right away.

Just my .02 cents worth...
Posted By: tshan

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 03:22 PM

Mike and Macca -

I realize the answer to this question has many variables, but I'd appreciate any info/suggestions/beliefs you may have.

What crew weight do you think is best suited to this boat? Assuming a steady crew that wants to be competitive in light air, but is also heavy enough to depower when it gets nasty. Not being a N20 sailor, how does that compare to the N20 crew weight?

Awesome machine. I appreciate the effort taken to develop, test and market it.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 03:58 PM

I don't have enough time on the boat in heavy air to comment just yet. However, Macca should chime in with some real time experience in those conditions and comparisons.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 04:38 PM

"Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future."

"Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view..."

"Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion."

I thought that was a great attempt by Wayne to change course here and get some real substance out of this discussion. Apparently mecca is not interested in that.


I can't speak for anyone else but the credibility of the NACRA 20 CF for me comes from the involvement of Morrelli & Melvin....(including Nate Shaver of their firm) in the design and engineering behind this boat...not mecca...

Maybe macca is not answering the questions because he doesn't have more than a superficial knowledge of what went into designing/engineering/and building these foils.

It would be great to get Morrelli/Melvin or Shaver on this forum to give us the real 411. Someone who can give real insight to the curved board debate and the science behind it.

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 04:44 PM

If you go over to the SA forums and look at the multihull forum for "Fred is in SOOO much trouble..." - you can check out a lot of discussion from steve clark about all facets of boat design, including, IIRC banana board theory.
Posted By: bvining

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 05:39 PM

Whats it weigh all up?

Width is 8'6"?

Is the mast carbon or aluminum?

Sorry for being lazy and not looking this up.

Bill

Posted By: bvining

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 05:45 PM

Mike,

The boat looks sweet, but the sail looks like the graphic on a designer pocketbook, its awful, I threw up in my mouth a little.

Bill
Posted By: Jake

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by bvining
Whats it weigh all up?

Width is 8'6"?

Is the mast carbon or aluminum?

Sorry for being lazy and not looking this up.

Bill



360lbs (give or take)
carbon stick (narrow wing section ala scaled up F16/F18)
10.5 foot beam


and, for the record, I'm going to end this post lightly insulted on the sail comment!
Posted By: PTP

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 06:17 PM

who makes the mast?
Posted By: Seeker

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 06:55 PM

Funny how wider than 8'-6" beam is suddenly acceptable...somewhere behind the scenes, Bill Roberts is probably saying something like "Welcome to the party...I have been trying to tell you this for the last 40 years"...
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by macca
Karl, I dont understand why a ferrari costs more than a hyundai, I mean they both have 4 wheels and an engine...


We ain't comparing Hyundai's and Ferrari's. We're comparing Hyundai's to Hyundai's. Its a slight variation, not a whole new frickin' breed of animal. I said it before, I don't know much about boat building. As far as I know you're laying a pliable material into a mold, whether its got a curve or not, I don't see the difference, but I would like too.



Originally Posted by Macca
And let me assure you that its not possible to have a flat pack mould that bolts together... next we will have Ikea doing them!


Okay if you say so, plenty of things are bolted together that hold up just dandy under some very extreme loads. But I still would like to know why. I like to learn things, and just saying "no" wrapped up in your ****/kunt like attitude isn't enough info for me. What Jake was getting at is that a giant block of material can get expensive, especially when most of it is going into the recycling bin. Furthermore if it is really big then there are issues of finding people that can deal with it, which if you're in a niche market you get to charge pretty much what you want and tell people to go screw themselves with a smile while they pay you knowing they'll be back because there just isn't any other options. Like I said, if a billet aluminum race car chassis can be machined and assembled and hold up to what a track and a whole mess of hp can throw at it, I don't see why something simple like this can't be done that way as well. Or, perhaps its something that hasn't been explored yet in this application and should be? There's always a better mousetrap to be built, or a better way to build it(whether it improves the product or the production), regardless of what you manufacture.


Originally Posted by macca
Sure, its possible to build a curved board in your backyard, but to do a production quality run with repeatability, control and warranty is not such an easy task.


Never said anything different. I'm just curious why you say the boards are soooo inexpensive, yet say production is soooo costly. That business model doesn't hold up for too long.



Originally Posted by macca
Look at it this way: If it was so easy then why isn't everyone out there doing it?


Give it time and it probably will be, right now its still in the voodoo magic category. Sailing has been around for how many thousands of years? How long did it take to just be able to go to weather? How far has it come in the past 50-25-10-5 years? I'm in the camp where I'd like to see the A-cats, F18's, and F16's (or whatever) take advantage of everything they can in both material and design.


You know,

Not that you wouldn't think so, but Karl is actually a nice guy when you meet him in person; ;-).
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Seeker
Funny how wider than 8'-6" beam is suddenly acceptable...somewhere behind the scenes, Bill Roberts is probably saying something like "Welcome to the party...I have been trying to tell you this for the last 40 years"...


Well Bill Roberts should probably get that chip off his shoulder. The only reason that its "suddenly become acceptable" is because the dealer in North America is offering a turn-key tilt trailer that literally adds 30 seconds to setup and breakdown time over your traditional-width cats.

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Having sailed a gazillion miles (give or take a couple) on A-cats, F-18's, N-20's, and the infamous 18HT. I think I'm somewhat qualified to compare the various platforms and the difficulty it takes to extract maximum performance.
The F20c is no more difficult to get up to speed than any of the others. There are some nuances that you need to be aware of, fore/aft weight placement and board height are significant adjustments. However the boat provides lots of feedback to help you make those corrections. Anyone that has spent enough time most other cats will recognize this, and pick up on it right away.

Just my .02 cents worth...


So, in your opinion, would you say the "peak performance envelope" is more narrow than an identical platform (pick one) with straight boards?

For the purpose of this side discussion, we'll presume that while operating within this "envelope" the curved boards are faster...


Posted By: Seeker

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:18 PM

Undecided....make sure you understand that I was saying what "I thought his reaction would be"....not anything that Bill Roberts actually said...don't attribute anything I said on the subject to him...to my knowledge he hasn't said a word about it.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:41 PM

Some boats are just more sensitive to weight placement. The 18HT was extremely sensitive to fore/aft weight position. We used to joke about needing running shoes to help our feet for all the miles we walked up and down that hull during the T500.
Posted By: bvining

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:44 PM

Sorry Jake, I wont make fun of the graphics any more today.

two more questions - how tall is the mast? Is it $30k all up?

I like it. Except for the ugly graphics - (ooops forgot my promise)

And nice video Macca, made me want one. The sailing one, not the one in the dark showing off one hull, that sucked.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 07:55 PM

34 ft mast (10.5m upper measurement band to beam)
$26.5k ready to sail - FOB Buford, GA

Posted By: Jake

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by bvining
Sorry Jake, I wont make fun of the graphics any more today.

two more questions - how tall is the mast? Is it $30k all up?

I like it. Except for the ugly graphics - (ooops forgot my promise)

And nice video Macca, made me want one. The sailing one, not the one in the dark showing off one hull, that sucked.


Well, aren't you in a brutally honest mood today! ;-)

Posted By: tshan

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I don't have enough time on the boat in heavy air to comment just yet. However, Macca should chime in with some real time experience in those conditions and comparisons.


Thx Mike. I'd assume it depowers pretty effectively, so a wide range of weights could be accomodated. Time will tell where the sweet spot lies.

Do you see similarities with the Infusion sail cut and the F20c sail cut? That is a big update from the N20, I'd guess.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:11 PM

To be fair, Jake just cut the vinyl, he didn't design the graphics :P
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:21 PM

Both sets of sails come from Performance Sails. We have always been happy with their quality and design. The main on the F20c really looks similar to a big A-cat main. It's 8ft across at the foot, and 4ft across at the head.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.


Eh? The leeward board is pushing the hull up, thus increasing RM!!!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/20/10 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by Undecided

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.


Eh? The leeward board is pushing the hull up, thus increasing RM!!!


Yeah but since the board is also curved - some of that force directed upwards at the tip end of the board is going to result in a "torquing" of the hull, meaning that its effectively going to rotate the leward hull outboards.. increasing the amount of capsize moment.

You might be right though that the effect of the board lifting overall would equalize the effect of the boat spinning the leward hull outwards.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 03:47 AM

Those interested in the construction process of curved boards should go look at the DNA A-cat web site. While NACRA may be using an entirely different process, it does give one possible way of building state of the art pre-preg curved carbon boards using autoclave technology. Their molds are made of high temperature composites and appear to be much less complex than those which have been speculated about, on this thread, and others touching on the subject.

DNA is refreshing transparent about their building process. Rather than dodging questions and shrouding their design/construction in ambiguity and mystery, they lay it all out on the table for everyone to see and give their reasoning behind their design decisions.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by Undecided

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.




Eh? The leeward board is pushing the hull up, thus increasing RM!!!


reduced RM... look where the COE of the board is in relation to the hull centerline.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Seeker
Those interested in the construction process of curved boards should go look at the DNA A-cat web site. While NACRA may be using an entirely different process, it does give one possible way of building state of the art pre-preg curved carbon boards using autoclave technology. Their molds are made of high temperature composites and appear to be much less complex than those which have been speculated about, on this thread, and others touching on the subject.

DNA is refreshing transparent about their building process. Rather than dodging questions and shrouding their design/construction in ambiguity and mystery, they lay it all out on the table for everyone to see and give their reasoning behind their design decisions.


A lot of builders don't even care to grace this forum, and its entirely up to them if they wish to share information at all. I am more than happy to update and give info from my point of view. but if you don't like it I can stop?
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
Macca can you talk a bit about the development process? On boats that were built prior with curved foils, what didn't work and how are these foils a step forward from prior attempts?


I will put a story on the development together in the next day or so. I am on my way to Australia today and i'm sure to have time to write it up on the trip...
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I don't have enough time on the boat in heavy air to comment just yet. However, Macca should chime in with some real time experience in those conditions and comparisons.


At the moment we have a lot of heavier crews sailing the boat, but Fergie and I are just on 150kg combined and have been sailing a lot on the boat in all sorts of weather. Recently we sailed in Hyeres in full mistal conditions (30-40kts) and despite the terrifying ride we were really happy with the control we had over the boat.

As for competitive weight ranges I think in time we will see the weights come down to just above the ideal F18 weight. The hulls can for sure carry more volume than an F18 and the rig is massive when you compare them, but the 3.2m beam is a lot of RM to play with and as such the lighter teams can keep the boat moving even in the big wind.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 12:23 PM

macca,

how about 200kg crews?
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 12:33 PM

For sure it will handle 200kg crew better than an F18, or I20. Simply due to the larger volume hulls, lifting foils and bigger rig.

As to the best crew weight once we have all worked out how to sail these things at full pace all the time.... We have to wait and see.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by Undecided

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.


Eh? The leeward board is pushing the hull up, thus increasing RM!!!


Yeah but since the board is also curved - some of that force directed upwards at the tip end of the board is going to result in a "torquing" of the hull, meaning that its effectively going to rotate the leward hull outboards.. increasing the amount of capsize moment.

You might be right though that the effect of the board lifting overall would equalize the effect of the boat spinning the leward hull outwards.


AFAIK, the issue here is the balance between transversal and longitudinal stability.

Suppose we start with a traditional 2/1 L/B ratio catamaran, that reaches both stability limits simultaneously at a given wind speed.

We can increase its righting moment by making it wider and then it will be able to carry more sail area. However, since its longitudinal stability remained the same, the extra sail area will make it pitchpole earlier then before, so it will not reach the full speed potential of the enlarged sailplan.

Lifting foils placed forward of the CG increase the longitudinal stability at speed, solving the problem - granted, at the expense of a fraction of the extra righting moment.

Conclusion: keeping hull shapes unchanged, curved foils allow a cat to be wider and to carry more sail area, so it becomes faster then before.

Check: the new AC cats have curved foils and their L/B is 1.5:1

Check: the tris with even smaller L/B (1:1) are where curved foils were developed, for they need them badly. Without those foils they reach their longitudinal stability limit a lot earlier than their capsize limit. You certainly remember how the first 1:1 tris were pitchpole prone.

Cheers,
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/21/10 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by Undecided

The extra width is also needed for the curved boards since the lift forces on the curved boards decrease righting moment via the leward board.






Eh? The leeward board is pushing the hull up, thus increasing RM!!!


reduced RM... look where the COE of the board is in relation to the hull centerline.


OK: can understand that once the foils are starting to lift the boat will pivot about (or roughly about) the COE of the board; but is this still true in "non flying modes" as the boat is then pivoting about the leeward hull.

I'm no boat builder, just keen to understand this bit that I do not appear to....
Posted By: orphan

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/22/10 01:02 PM

Macca,
You said Nacra tested with straight and curved. Did they ever test with curved being moved foward of the center of effort? The idea to provide lift without the balance issues.
Posted By: macca

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/22/10 02:31 PM

There are no "balance issues" you simply have to sail the boat and not just stand anywhere you like. Its the same as any other cat with the exception that when you get it wrong on the F20 its clearly wrong.

The Board position was decided from the testing on the original test platforms and also calculating the effect of the wider beam from what was tested.

As for Simon's question: as soon as there is load on the foil then the COE is part of the RM equation. Load is on the foil very early, even on straight foils.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/22/10 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon


OK: can understand that once the foils are starting to lift the boat will pivot about (or roughly about) the COE of the board; but is this still true in "non flying modes" as the boat is then pivoting about the leeward hull.

I'm no boat builder, just keen to understand this bit that I do not appear to....


Erase all this.
Lift from the foil replaces part of hull flotation at speed, so righting moment drops with speed simply because the foil's center of lift is more inboard (closer to the mast) than the float.

Cheers,
Luiz
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: See the F20c in person - 10/27/10 01:12 PM

Macca, (Kevin)

What's the latest?

YOu still 'down under'?

Speaking for myself, It would be cool if you posted your latest excursion, events, etc. on a regular basis. It would be nice if some of the other 'Rock Stars' would as well.

For me, being in WI now, winter is beginning to set in. I did get to do some excellent one design racing in Milwaukee harbor last Sunday. It was nice, even though it was on a Pearson Ensign!

http://www.ensignclass.com/images/stories/pdf/EnsignBrochure.pdf

Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: See the F20c in person - 11/04/10 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz


Erase all this.
Lift from the foil replaces part of hull flotation at speed, so righting moment drops with speed simply because the foil's center of lift is more inboard (closer to the mast) than the float.

Cheers,
Luiz


This may be a dumb question, but why not have the boards bend the other way (i.e. the tip extending outboard when down)? In other classes there's a max width, but that shouldn't be a problem here.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: See the F20c in person - 11/06/10 08:49 PM

Having not sailed the F20c or any other curved foiled boat, I won't speak to why they placed the boards under the boat from a performance aspect.

I will speak of one good maintenance reason however. If you have a 10.5 ft wide boat sailing along at 25 kts in 20 kts of breeze up the Florida keys, hugging the coast as that is minimum distance, you likely can't see the water very clearly under the leeward hull. Now the keys have lots of these things called shoals, usually made of rock hard coral that will take your boat from 25 kts to 0 kts in about 3 seconds if you hit one. Imagine your curved foil hits one. Now imagine your curved foil sticking outside the boat hitting one. You now have a situation where:

a) you can't even see your foil moving in the water b/c its 11 feet away from you
b) your foil hits first as usual, but instead of a blunt impact, which is generally survivable, the entire boat is torquing around a 3 foot moment arm...snap is usually what happens when that kind of load is applied to a thin airfoiled surface.

With the foils under the boat, moments like that are a non-issue, its far far easier to know your full boat width so you can avoid hitting shoals, and more importantly your not worried about touching some F18's $1500 carbon daggerboard with your $1800 curved carbon daggerboard while on the start line. That would just get confusing and dangerous.
© 2024 Catsailor.com Forums