New member looking for advice, A-Class?

I sail Lake Winnipeg and Pelican Lake in Manitoba Canada. I grew up on Lake Winnipeg sailing a 16 foot Sea Spray. I still have her but just for sentimental reasons. Not much worth repairing.
I am self taught and love the water. I have nearly no fear and am used to gusty unpredictable wind. Nothing like a prairie tornado to stir up a lake in a hurry.
I want the fastest boat I can set up myself. I thought that would be a tiger but had never looked because it wasn’t time. It is now. I want to spend about 10K. I will never race this boat. If I go that way, I will reinvest in a winner.
Can I trailer an F-18 and set it up myself? I am 6 foot 200 pounds but over 40 and don’t want to put out my back to go for a sail. The more boats I learn about the more confused I get. I need to start with; can I get the boat set up and in the water by myself if I need to.
Is a used A-Class out of my range at 10?K in North America? I will travel to bring home the boat I want. There is a used 2007 Geltek for 17K on USACA. This might be the boat I want if I get obsessed but for now I just want fast, fast fast.
Sorry for the run on and thanks in advance for all advice

I'd actually go for an F16 - since you aren't going to race but you want speed... the F16 offers the spinnaker option for you and is pretty light.

Make sure you look at the Hobie 16 too. You'll be 15 minutes from ignition off to getting wet. Plus they are everywhere, and won't break your back.

I've never heard of anyone suffering a broken back sailing an F16. But, under spinnaker it is a handfull for one person.

On the other hand it's lively and quickly rigged under main alone.

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I was not making any reference to the F16 I was simply stating that the H16 isn't that heavy.

I think there is a Boyer Mk.IV set up with a spinaker in B.C.
Would save the paper work and duty at the border.

Fred Smith
CAN31 A Class

I am used to the dagger boards on the sea spray. Being tight to the wind is important, I like to point. So the Hobie is out of the question, what is the F16 like to point?

I crewed a laze E as a kid, so a spinnaker is definitely a plus. If I have a steady wind I would have no problem. I am really drawn to the 17. Is it too much for one person? Is the 18 out of the question?

BC might be in country but across the mountains is way more of a challenge compared to customs.

But... if it is what I want, I'll do what it takes. Can you PM me the info? I did a search and nothing came up.

Just to clarify, the mast is the only challenge to rigging a boat alone for myself. I know there are rigs for that. So as long as I can rite the boat after I capsize... and I will... often. I want to be fast as possible for 10K with a 1 person at 200 pounds in reasonable physical shape.

Again, thanks for all the feedback! All feedback is good information at this point.

F16 points well but not nearly so well as the A class. No comparison really. F16 is a little bit difficult to take to weather, the wing mast takes some getting used to and you can find yourself in irons easily. Best vmg is not the highest point of sailing.

The bate is set! I am truly focused on an A class now! HA HA, you did that on purpose I bet(kidding).

Now to find one and get it home for 10K... probably need to check with the wife too. Seriously, is an A class a good move. Can they be set up for fun and are they reasonably robust?

Stole this from another forum...

2001 - 2004 platforms - Boyer/AHPC Mark IV, AHPC Mark V/Auscat Flyer, Marstrom
2005 - present platforms - Auscat or Gel Tek Flyer, Bimare or Vectorworks XJ, Melvin A2/A3, Marstrom

I'm an F16 guy but the people I know who sail "A"s love 'em.

http://www.catsailor.com/Tradewinds2010.html

http://www.usaca.info/index.php?option=com_jcalpro&Itemid=76&extmode=view&extid=77

Just so you know, these two events are next week and almost across the street from each other.

If you're interested in beach cats, now would be a good time to visit the Keys.

Choice is pretty simple really.

Want to point upwind => A-cat
Want to be home first on a round trip (fastest allround) => F16

No amount of pointing can undo the speed of the spinnaker on the return legs. Wiping the smile of your face after a good spi run is even harder !

F18's are excellent boat but just not for singlehanded sailors.

Wouter

Thanks again everyone, I have some thinking to do. And allot more research. I can't make it down to the keys but thanks for the invite. I am sure it will be a blast! I was there last Feb, awesome. I will check back for more posts later but I have to go for today.

All the best, Gord

I have an F16 Stealth, and recently parted with a $4000 early 90s Boyer A cat. Both have exceptionally light masts, very easy to step solo. Both are extremely lightweight boats, at the expense of durability. Both are equally easy to right solo. Both are a royal blast to sail solo, I'd have trouble choosing a favorite.
I also have an F18HT which I'll solo up to about 10 to 12 kts of wind, but it's really a 2 person boat. And I use a gin pole to safely raise that carbon mast. I can right it solo with an extended Solo Right, but it can be marginal for me at 160 lbs. Set up time on spinnaker boats is substantially more.

Dave

This board is about as impartial as a discussion of the merits of communism delivered by someone standing atop Lenin's Tomb during the annual May Day Parade.

I'm an a-cat sailor and I say A-cat! The guy wants a fast, slick, singlehander. They just don't get any better. When I first got my a-cat I thought I would have to downshift my attitude to live with the downwind legs without a spinnaker. One trip up and down my home lake with a 12knot breeze and I couldn't quit giggling like a grade school girl. The hulls go through the water like razor blades and, dear GOD, the acceleration! You feel every change in the wind. If you only care to single hand and you want speed and finesse. A-cat. Period.

I sail an 11 year old Boyer MKIV I bought for $7k and I have won regattas with some not-so-shabby competition handicap or straight up against newer a's. I've placed top half of the fleet for the last two years in Islamorada (which is probably where my ability is) with the 3rd oldest a-cat in the fleet. It is possible to sail an older a-cat competitively.

Biased, but you might want to look at the Hobie 17 again. Very rugged, one man boat, and plenty on the market. Lots of upwind speed, and fun out on the rack. Sailed in a
Regatta on Lake Chelan last year with a Seaspray, NACRA 6.0 and two Hobie 18's. Sailing with a main and jib, could beat all on boat for boat. Seaspray won on corrected time.

Caleb Tarleton H-17

Hey Jake,

Good to see you so content with your "new" toy.



Ever tried sailing a lightweight spi-equipped singelhander ?

Wouter

Nothing accelerates or de-accelerates like a A-Cat.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Tables_2010/Multihull_Classes.htm

A's are very nice boats. But not quite as fast as F16s.

Multihull Classes
Multihull Classes Napy D-PN Wind HC For Handicap Range
Code 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
18m2 (Cat.1 Open) 18SM-1 64.2 68.2 65.4 63.4 60.0
18m2 (Cat.2 incl 11' N5.5) 18SM-2 67.2 69.0 67.3 66.5 64.0
A Class Cat A-C 64.5 68.8 65.6 63.8 60.9
Formula 16 spi F16 63.0 66.0 64.5 61.9 60.1

The spinnaker run really does make a difference! But I have to say I still think I will enjoy pointing more. The one thing I hated on all other boats after the seaspray was not being able to go where I wanted.

I'd say you're in good company! The A class sailors are dedicated to their boats and have attracted some of the best sailors in the world.

Spinnaker boats are both a blessing and a curse. They are more complicated but sailing the F16 under spin is the most enjoyable thing I've ever done as a sailor.

Off to run some errands.

Cheers!

If you only ever go out singlehanded the Acat can't be beat.

If you want to take a friend for a sail sometimes you might want to go for the F16.

The spin is fun but if you are setting it up for every sail the A cat is so easy and quick to set up you would probably get out more.

Both are great boats with light masts. The F16 is overpowered for one person in winds over 15 knots. Of course the A is a handful in 20 knots too.

Both great boats and both point very well.

What can be overpowered for some, others are just getting into their stride. Most single handers seem to be able to sail pretty confortably above the 20 knot mark now, once you get to grips with loads of downhaul on, bring the mast rotation in and if you have to drop the travellor a bit.

One of the great things about the modern F16's and A's is the very broad band of wind and conditions they can be sailed in.

You will enjoy either boats but having the freedom of an occassional crew is real bonus, particularly if you have nippers or wives who are sometimes sailors. Enjoy

an A-CLASS cannot be sailed with a passenger?

I doubt that, though I've never seen more than 1 aboard an A. Certainly you cannot reasonably race an A with more than 1 aboard.

Modern A's don't handle weight well. They are very sensitive to weight distribution and have very little volume. They are absolutely brilliant at what they were designed to do - race singlehanded!
The F16 is much more capable when it comes to overall versatility and weight handling. They sail very well for daysailing with just main or amin and jib rigged. For real fun blasting then take the extra time to rig the spin.
As to being overpowered solo - I'm just 70Kgs and have RACED (and finished second on h'cap to a Dart 15) in winds of 25kts + and gusts up to 35. Admittedly I only pulled the spin on one lap of that race and almost scared myself witless but I didn't capsize and had a fantastic battle boat for boat with a Tornado.
Sailing in 20kts plus is a regular hoot and I love it!!!

I do like the idea of being able to take people for a ride every now and then. This is a great thread for this decision. I thought I was "A-class" sold but...

What are the F16 platforms availible in North America? How do they stack up?

Basically, just the Viper and Falcon. If you can find a Taipan 4.9 it would be worth a look.

http://funinthesunweb.com/

http://www.falconmarinellc.com/

http://vimeo.com/4054854

http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=388086060956

I was told not to mess with the A or F16 because they break too easily. And cost too much to repair. But that sounded like sour grapes? Think so? However, incredible sail plans and no back pain mast stepping might tip the balance to owning one. Just don't have kiddies in college...

That is nonsense. I can only speak for the F16's, but feel the A's are less fragile that most think. The F16's however are impressively robust for boats that lightweight. In fact, the data I have seems to put them on a par with heavier boats like the I-17 and Hobie FX-one. None of the modern boats are tanks like the H16 and all suffer occasionally from a deck splitting or something. Most of these boats are hand build and sometimes the workman has had a bad night of sleep. However, the design behind the F16's is good and you will not break them easily during sailing. Rocks and submerged containers are a different matter but no modern racing cat will bump into those and take it in its stride. That is the difference between a 200 kg boat and 100 kg boat. Repair costs are pretty standard too. Summarizing; if you take some care with your boat then you'll be alright. If you neglect it often and throw it about without a care in the world then no modern cat is suitable for you.

We know this as we have had some pretty darn rough condition over a series of F16 events and 8 years of sailing/racing them in all conditions.

And ohh, never leave an Acat or F16 unattended and unmoored to the ground. They are so lightweight and their wingmasts are so powerful that a reasonable gust of wind will flip them over (even if the mainsail is not hoisted).


Wouter

I have a Bimare javelin 16 with carbon mast. In a storm the boat was torn from the ground anchor, flipped over to the side and hit with the chainplate my metal sailing box, leaving a dent in it, finally the tip of the mast was pushed into the ground by the wind pressure on the trampoline. The chainplate was bent, that was all. I have seen boats described as tanks, which had a folded mast after such an accident. I have seen similar with an A-cat and the mast (and the boat) survived as well.
People who tell stories about the fragility of those boats, never owned one. Of course it is not like a Wave or Dart 16, just like other glass or carbon sandwich boats. The decission is fairly easy, A-cat is lighter (75kg) and F16 (107kg-140kg) can sailed by two people, A-cat not. Both are fun, a spinnaker add more fun at light winds, but you can rig a spin on an A-cat fur fun sailing as well.

Cheers,

Klaus

Not sure I understand your emphasis on pointing ability. Sure an A-cat points high and will get to the windward mark faster than just about any similarly sized cat, but it's a matter of degree and something you might not notice if you were recreationally sailing instead of racing.

Maybe more experienced folks can give you an estimate on the difference in VMG to windward between the A-cat and F16. My wild guess would be 5%.

just my point of view, never had to justify it but... I enjoyed beating hobbies up wind on my seaspray. It was all about the ability to get upwind faster. When I go out for recreation, I like to feel like I am beating the wind. I want to be able to do that as much as possible. I guess the wind is my opposition. The coast home with the wind has never been a challenge. The spi looks pretty, but I think it's a cake walk, a time to catch some rays and have a beer after winning the real race of getting up wind. just my opinion

You can't do that under spin on the F16. You'll spend all your time swimming.

The F16 is very responsive. It accelerates very quickly and turns even more quickly. You have to stay on your toes at all times.

ahhh...then the simplicity of one sail and three strings on an a-cat should be your steed.

May even be less then that; the real point is that the A's are pointers while F16's are footers. Both have good VMG to windward but do so through different means. A's point very high with reasonable speed en the F16's go fast with reasonable pointing; the end result is about the same with the edge to the A's. Till the windward mark that is, when the spi leg comes then it is all over. Here the F16's will point deep and go fast where the A's are sort of limited in both aspects.

For distance races and touring the F16's have the edge over the A's (if not more than that). In such sailing there is typically alot of non-pure upwind work and here it pays to go everywhere fast rather then excell in just pointing. Say the mark is upwind but at an angle that other boats like the F16's can make in one leg then the pointing ability of the A's has been rendered useless. It then all comes down to boatspeed and while the A's are certainly fast, other modern designs are too !

This leads back to one of the earlier posts ; The A's are excellent for what they are designed for. Course Racing with preferably an upwind leg to the finish. They have evolved to that suppremecy at the cost of performance during other uses.

Wouter

Then you are in for a real surprise !

Wouter

I have to agree with Wouter, I owned an A class and it was super responsive to any adjustment but it doesn't have that feeling of power. I shadowed a F16, that the new owner was using with spin for the first time 1 up with spin for 13km in 15-17knots, there was spray everywhere and it was exciting to watch, definately a want one moment for me

Racing H16 and 20s et.it was all about getting to weather; the feeling of powering up wind. While it was technically challenging to keep as fast or faster down wind, it was rarely thrilling unless the wind was nuking .

Now add a spin and you are racing downwind. Sailing is a new game, it is not hard to do, but there is a significant learning curve to do it well. The boat is now balanced: if you are trapping up wind then you are down as well – so to speak.

Both the A and the F16 are pretty light and responsive, but the addition of the spin is what, for me, makes the F16 fun to sail not work. I have never yet been sorry for the added time it takes me to rig. Once the chute fills and you feel the boat want to pull out from under you, it’s all good.

Looking forward to it! What I meant was that I enjoyed that part, the coast, a relaxing victory lap per say.

I think you are missing the point, if not I'm sorry. But what I think they are trying to tell you is that with a Spi the cake walk is no more, no more relaxing on the tramp with a beer. Won't happen.

Nope, totally got it. Looking forward to the new challenges and their rewards. Many pitch-poles to come! Hopefully I don't add to the three inch scar in my right side? Never done a full cart wheel but who knows with a lighter boat...

Both the F16 and the A are impressive machines but me thinks you are looking for an F16 as you have implied that you want the option to take others out. The A is not going to like that too much, especially if either of you are big like me.

Either way you will have a great time. A-cat races are often won or lost on downwind speed. Don't discount the enjoyable and challenging experience of sailing downwind on the A either in light air with both hulls down or medium to heavy with a hull flying. It's the ultimate quick to rig single handed machine with the F16 offering much more flexibility. On our lake the A-cat is the fleet that is growing.

I sent him a note, it looks like he is in Trenten Ohio.

So where does the Narcra fit in? Weight, speed, pointing ability...

Formula 16 spi F16 63.0 66.0 64.5 61.9 60.1
A Class Cat A-C 64.5 68.8 65.6 63.8 60.9
Nacra F17 Uni spi NF17 66.7 69.0 68.0 66.6 65.0

I am leaning hard to a Blade or a Falcon if i win the lotto. Heck if I win the lotto i will get the A-cat too!!!

I looked at this set of boats myself a couple of years ago. I decided on the F16 primarily because of the spinnaker. I used to live to sail upwind. Now I go upwind just to get to where I can pop the chute.

I also wanted to learn how to race, so I went with a boat where I thought the class was building. F16 has grown where I sail while F17 has remained about the same.