Sloop-Rigged A-Class Cat?

Tried earlier to post-unsuccessfully--trying again...

I hear that Randy Smyth is racing a sloop-riged A-Cat in the Keys this weekend and that he was first to the beach after the single race sailed yesterday.

Anyone know about this? Photos? What do you think? Will it be an improvement to a already well-developed rig?

A picture of the rig is in this thread on the SA site:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=117565

Not sure why Randy wanted a couple of goobers in the photo though.

The race they had yesterday got tossed due to a lack of wind and Monday Randy had a jib track issue and had to retire. They have some breeze today so today's report should be a bit more interesting.

Is there a thread or site that has updates on the race where the boat is sailing?

Bob is only updating the forum thread I've referenced in this post. They aren't updating the A-cat site and they haven't posted any results yet.

I'm hearing racing today may be blown out with too much breeze. We'll see.

I'm hearing racing today may be blown out with too much breeze. We'll see.

What?

;^)

looks a lot like this :P

looks like it's blowin' like stink.

...gotta luv the fat head jib...

...wishing all competitors, the RC, and guests, Godspeed from the panhandle - B

Think sloop rig will divide the class like it is in the F16's? Sloop rig kills over 8 knots, uni rules under 8 knots. Think a spinaker fleet is around the corner?

It seems that it looks as though,

there is a small 'bar' so to speak on the top of the jib, to help keep the slot open.

Or is that just me seeing things and dreaming?

Don't think so. Developments are the norm in A's. People are always trying things to see if they are faster and we already have boats set up in many different ways. Sloop rigs have been tried before and dissappeared like the dodo because they weren't faster. This time around who knows. There are new materials and techniques, and very smart people having a go. That's what we do in this class - have a go.

As far as kites go, a small number of people have added kites just for recreation. But as soon as you add a kite it's not an A Class. The sail area limitation for the ISAF category rules that out unless the total sail are remains with 13.94sq metres. There are plenty of great boats around designed for kites for those who prefer to use them. We revel in the challenge of going fast downwind without adding large amounts of sail. It's about efficiency and rig adjustment and technique for us. Each to their own.

Cheers

Sounds like they need some media down there.

Take a look at the video. Randy started paddling the A cat at 7am that morning this video was taken around 3pm at the 45mile mark. He is beating most of the kayakers. Tiller attached to his foot. He is a machine.

J.P.(holdyourcourse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynszNTARLcw

Hardly a worthwhile comparison, f16 sloop is raced two up uni raced solo . A class sloop or uni will only ever race in class solo , f16 sloop has greater sail area overall than uni , A class sloop will have same overall sail area as uni .

would be intresting to see what the SCHRS handicap system would make of the two setups though as its considered a "fair " indication of performance against the reality of on the water results in this champion ship .


spinnaker set ups have been perfected on a class over the last few yeas with no significant take up outside class racing

As we already know the SCHRS handicap penalises heavily the lighter boats. With the F16 Uni, if a blade jib of only 2.0 msq was added, would rate considerably faster than a fully sorted Tornado. Now that just aint goner happen and shows just how far out the SCHRS is as a handicap system.

It looks like there is a small prodder just above the jib - look at the forestay; there is a small change in angle at the prodder.

Also wonder why there is a line from the hounds that then goes out of picture...

Also wonder what is supporting the jib below the point where the bridals meet the forestay; I do not see a second set of bridals lower down!

The line from the hounds is probably the trapeze line.
At Islandmorada , it's advisable to tie your A Class to a tree or someother heavy object.

Fred

On other photo's theres another set of very light bridles at the bottom. Bare in mind that this bridle and forestay does not take the loading of the mast, only the jib, as the normal 2 front stays are as per normal A class " split stay ". The jib is only a "Blade " jib and does not come foward enough to the more normal front shroud mounting point.

We had a very long discussion last year on the F16 forum about these Blade jibs and the benefits they did or did not have to the Uni sailor. My argument that they may not produce max efficiency over a Uni main at top flight level, but will allow lessor ability sailors( the more recreational sailor ) to get their optimum efficiency out of the main ( virtually everyone agreed that running a jib allows much easier setting of the main ), can only help the class to get more level racing, I believe still stands.

It will be interesting to see the likes of this top level sailor and how he gets on with it. The one thing that will kill it off other than class racing, is the handicap hit this setup causes. Getting the likes of the SCHRS to react to these new rigs and light boats will be so slow as to kill off what could be an exciting new direction, before it starts.

It will be interesting to see the likes of this top level sailor and how he gets on with it. The one thing that will kill it off other than class racing, is the handicap hit this setup causes. Getting the likes of the SCHRS to react to these new rigs and light boats will be so slow as to kill off what could be an exciting new direction, before it starts. [/quote]


I'm not sure I understand this. In most handicapping systems an A Class is an A Class no matter what particular setup it uses. If it fits the A Class rules it gets the A Class rating. Also there are no new light boats - the minimum class weight is still 75kg. I've just weighed a number of DNA's and most were right on the weight with no correctors. One was just over and one just under and it was required to add correction for the regatta.

An A class sailing in a A class competition is an a A class , an A class racing in a mixed competition ( like on your local club night where the majority of racing takes place), has to have a handicap rating, at a rough guide I think this is 1.01 under SCHRS

Add a 2.0 blade jib and reduce the main to 10.94 and the handicap drops to 0.883. An all conquering Tornado with probably 2.5 times the sail area is 0.935, so you can see the 2 sail A really does not stand much chance of development outside of the A class.

Now we all know that on the water in top hands the Uni will beat the sloop. Oops the handicap system gets that one sooooooooooooo wrong and that is the problem with light weight boats/jibs/ weight. But this very real problem (m which is stopping boat development in my opinion )is another thread and not what we should be discussing here on this particular thread.

We use a performance based system so it doesn't care whether an A is set up differently such as sloop configuration or different profile foils or curved boards etc.
It must drive you crazy measuring all the different ways an A can be set up. How do you handle curved foils for instance?

Many have tried to setup a performance based handicap system but most have failed due to lack of information. Interestingly the new "Sailwave " scoring program has a feedback system and the likes of the RYA have expressed interest to get better more fair handicap systems.

The problem is though as fast as the Handicap system changes, the speed of development seems to keep one step ahead, but with a little investment and the use of computers, surely we should be in a better position than we really actually are.

No easy answer. The measurement systems seem to struggle with the formula classes like F18 and A's. The performance systems struggle to get timely and relevant feedback - certainly the case in AUS. Although I've seen the yardstick for an A go from 76 to 70.5 over the time I've been sailing them - don't ask how long!

Yes the F18 is a classic, huge development of sail and hulls and yet the handicap has not changed much, mmmmmm

The F18 has not changed as other boats moved around it. The SCHRS management group are currently finalising some changes to the rule for March implementation (subject to ratification); we are also dicussing the areas that Wayne has highlighted; looking at what is actually happening with developments and doing a lot of analysis and thinking; changes may result - we all do have day jobs as well.

So, thats how the capitilist world works.

If the SCHRS wants to be at the forefront of sailing and part of the handicap system, then it is going to have to sharpen its thinking. SCHRS has got behind the loop and now its members will have to put in a few hours to correct this. Take good bold decisions now and you can then step back and enjoy the fruits of your labours, get it wrong and it will become yet another derided system.

Now I like its simplicity and openess as a handicap system, so I'm voting for you guys to get it right but please don't be wimps and let the heavy weight brigade protect their corner, yes by making constructive changes, you will upset some but in the long run, you will do us all a favour.

Oh and thanks and I do mean thanks, to all who are prepared to work on these type of issues, as without you, we would all not be able to race.

stealth f16 sloop --- published schrs 1.075 -- looks like a bandit to me

That's not the Stealth F16, that's a Stealth pre 'R' with a small main and a minuscule blade jib.

I don't believe anyone is racing a Stealth in this configuration anymore.

At this point, the A-Class sloop rig has a window where it is competitive (over 18 knots from my observations). Randy will try an iteration where the main gets a bit bigger and the jib smaller, he'll tweak the trim controls, and he'll get more time on the water with it but it will be a challenge closing the gap we saw with the rig in the 12-15 knots we had on the last day of racing last week. The top four finishers in each of the four races that day were consistently 1/2 to 3/4 of a leg ahead of the sloop rig at the finish. Randy knows this for sure but he's having a lot of fun just seeing what he can do with it. You have to admire him for that.

If you have not figured it out, we kind of set everyone up last week with the online comment that Randy was on the beach before everyone else after Tuesday's light air race(had to have some fun with that). He was there because he saw the wind dying to the point where the race would be abandoned and headed to the beach at the first weather mark (he was actually in the top ten in that race) while the rest of us drifted or paddled in.

actually I think its more of a "faux pas" as REAL Stealth f16 ratings have dissapeared, the rating I quoted was listed against STEALTH F16 which definately aren't the listed dimensions nor rating

just me being mischievous again forgot in a multinational forum my comments can be taken so literally

Wayne, you stepping up to Help?

Now Simon, you do know me better than to level that old chestnut. I can send references from other clubs and groups where I have more than " pulled my weight ".

As you already know, there already has been some dialogue going on between the SCHRS and myself, if they need further help, then they only have to ask.

;-)