Square top sails

I am getting a new mainsail for my I17 it currently has a very small square top, Nacra have said that bigger is better,They have mentioned pentax as a material, which will match my jib. Why just go square why not go up and out ? Like the 18ft skiffs do. Any suggestions please..

I would definately say go with Square top it gives a lot more drive up top, I've only had mine on the 5.7 Taipan for 6 sails and swum 4 times but I was going faster each time. Your mast section is important if its too light you won't be able to rotate much or it will bend over backwards when you pull the main on and sideways if you dont have the main on enough. The design is really limited by your class rules on size and shape. Does your class include the mast in the sail area? If not you can get a stiffer section like an F18 which gives you the stiff mast and technically extra sail area. I know the Stingray sailors pick up about .4m2 doing that.
Put a camera on your boat when you first put the big head on and post it on you tube, I've kept my mates laughing for hours with my videos

Were those capsizes done whilst bearing off around the windward mark by any chance

Don't worry Jeff, I'll have the camera ready.....

If you want a laugh have a look at this from last Saturday we had a big reach, I was crew on my boat with the traveller and didnt let go quick enough ended up slamming into the spin pole and hanging there stunned for a while. Very funny
http://beachcatsaustralia.ning.com/video/taipan-57-pitchpole-22nd-jan

This is behind a registration wall. Can you put it on YouTube or dailymotion, aka some place we could look at it without registration?

Sorry I didn't know you had to register
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiznaTG2AY

Jeff you need to get your crew working for his ride. Make him trim the main, the rapidly moving back ground suggests you're using the tiller a lot.

G'day Scarecrow they were just off shore puffs officially measured on land at 56km/hr throwing us around, if you watch Fergs on the tiller he's pretty steady. Now I know you guys are there and you guys have heaps more knowlege of boat design, sails and masts. I would say that if Devon's mast has about 50-60mm pre bend he could carry a bigger head main and lessen his prebend to 20-30mm or less. How do you work out how big the head can go, how much prebend? You need the camera on the spin pole to share the pain Chocko

Working out how big a head can go is easy. You keep making it bigger until the mast breaks.

Jeff,

The crew in the video (I presume you) didn't let the main out ONCE in the upwing footage. In a non race scenario, driving up obviously worked out in keeping the boat upright. In a race situation, however, this is slow as molasses. The crew should be working the main in conjunction with the skipper to keep the boat at an optimal angle of heel at all times (windward hull just kissing the water), which generally equates to best VMG upwind.

A skiff rig needs to be a LOT more automatic than a cat.

I think Devon wants to avoid breaking the mast, I found the mast tuning is unbelievably critical, I was keeping up with Fergs with my small head main, even beat him in our distance race when he had the new Goodall Bighead with new mast supposedly tuned for the sail, he lessened his prebend by 30mm and softened the diamond wires a couple of weeks ago and smoked me. I havn't heard of a Nacra dealer doing different sail design, I thought it was all class stuff, did he say he's done it for other I17's. Sorry Sam my bad,I don't want to hijack the thread but to save my already ragged reputation, I'll give one last link to me sailing in a blow when another 5.7 pitchpoled, it shows me and my wife mucking around keeping the boat flat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmzwEhc_83w
or
http://beachcatsaustralia.ning.com/video/sailing-10410rain-and-30kt

Im very attatched to my mast as it is only 3 mths old, we just launched another I17 and we put a F18 spinaker on it, had to go a little higher up the mast but it worked ok in light breezes, lot of sail for 1 up and the mast had a lot of bend but it is a wing shape and was rotated, I would like to have a bigger head LOL wouldnt we all but also go up higher as the 18ft skiff do, will talk to nacra about this as they are the ones to give the ok and so far they seem to want to go that way...Thanks for the advice

Devon which mast extrusion do you have? Is it the infusion one? Given you have less righting moment, you could hang just about any main off it that you could make fit.

Devon's boat and Alex's with F18 spinnaker

OK, speaking of squaretop sails - in looking at the Tradewinds pics I noticed that one of the N-20s (red, sail #11) had a main with much more of a square top than the others. Unless I'm not seeing things correctly. What's up there? New Nacra cut stock sails? Calvert? How did the compare? Curious I am...

It was a sail Mark Smith had made from an aftermarket sailmaker. I thought Trey Brown was supposedly spearheading new sails for the class. Last word was they were planning on a new spinn first. I heard he had two new ones at a recent regatta but not sure what the details are. I'm going with another maker soon myself. One guy in the GT last year had a new design main that he had C and C sailmakers do for him and he was pretty fast in the light air. Unfortunately the squall on day one ruined it for the rest of the race.

I believe Kirk at Key Sailing now has the two test kites for new development. Trey and I had them at an event at Nigel's in the late fall but they were rigged for end pole snuffer so that we couldn't try them. We put one up in the parking lot and noticed the luff was significantly shorter. Hard to see a lot else without any wind. Should be a lot easier on the spin poles though by not requiring as much pre-bend.

I believe the new kite is coming out soon but don't know the dates. I've asked Trey to give an update.

Interesting. At what time will this information about these two new design spinns be made available to the class? Are they available for some of us to try or just for a select few? I hope Trey will chime in here sometime, being that he is the Class President and all.

"Rumor" has it that the "test kites" were simply NOS spins sent out, hence the patches for end pole. Why would an updated spin under development be patched for end pole?

The kite, main, jib that Kirk has is for the aluminum rig, which has a spin hound lower than the carbon rigs. They are beautiful sails. The aluminum rig provided jib was used at Tradewinds on a carbon rig with the aftermarket main.

In my experience you can get a significantly shorter (or longer) luff just buying one of the old sails.

In my uneducated sail making knowledge, I had always believed that in modern spins a longer luff gave you more power (even if sail area was equal or slightly less). Will they come up with two spins, one for the aluminum rig and one for the carbon?

The mast extrusion is a wing profile not round

Talking about pitch poles, here`s mine as close as you can get last week Australia day..That tested the mast...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4DDilL4SNY
Didnt mean to laugh at the crew so much but this was really funny, thanks to Alex on a jet ski and a steady hand..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4DDilL4SNY

Nice recovery on the crew's part. You should sell tickets for that ride.

MummP-Rumors are just that, rumors. You asked this specific question at Tradewinds and I told you the answer.
The test chutes were endpole setups because the test boat at E/P has an endpole system. Most of the N20's in CA are still endpole setups.

The new spinnaker is coming out this quarter and will hopefully be available by the end of February. When I have a hard date for the release, I'll be sure to post it on Catsailor.
If all goes well, the new main and jib will be out first quarter of 2012, potentially last quarter of this year.

My email address is: velocitytrey (at) gmail.com. Anyone feel free to email me if you have questions regarding the N20 and I'll make sure you have the honest answer, no rumors here.

So what are you guys with open sails going to do when the updated E/P sails beat you around the course?

I love this boat!

hell, the original ones already do!!
Zombies rule!!!

Shoot, my boat is just out of sync with that schedule. My spins are still in good shape, but I could use a new main and really need a new jib...

nacra just announced they are developing a square top main for the 16sq.

Don't think you would have saved that pitchpole with a square top. you definately need a camera

Then make it a little smaller!

no just let the mainsheet out faster

How about just updating us on the Nacra 20 class e-mail group? You testing the new ones is a signifigant thing we would like to hear about. As our "class president" I was hoping you'd keep us informed.

The re-cut custom ones or the factory ones?

How can I join?

It's a gang and you have to be "jumped in". I'll see if I can still find a link for you.

PM me your Email address and I'll send you an invite. Unfortunately it doesn't get much use.

Todd, weren't you the originator of the group? If I understand the google group thing correctly, only the person that started it can add people in. I may be wrong though.

Lee- what do you mean by 're-cut custom ones?'

"I love this boat!"

+1 (from a fat guy)

Yes, I was i.e. the email request. Tad can also "jump" people in. You can't because nobody likes you.Sorry. You do make a good DD/ voice of reason though(can't believe I said that).I'll let Lee answer the re-cut question, but I think you know the answer all ready.

Disclaimer; This is meant to sound as diplomatic and as nice as possible. It is simply a quest for more information to satisfy MANY people's curiosity regarding the subject.

The ones you ran in the Tybee. Or is that just a rumor too? I've heard the same story from a few people whom I trust a great deal. Was that main bought from a "Licensed Nacra Dealer" like is clearly stated in the Nacra 20 class rules? Or is it a little more complicated than that? Honestly, if it is a "custom" cut sail, great, we can all benefit from the evolution but if you're keeping the info to yourself about it, it looks pretty bad with you being the "Class President" and looks even more like you got into that position to serve yourself. Personaly, I hope I'm wrong because I love the boat too. But you shouldn't preach "One design" when you're not adhereing to the class rules yourself. If you bought those sails off the shelf like the rest of the class is required to do, then my appologies for all this. Hopefully we could have a discussion on this over at our Nacra 20 groups discussion board and get a few more perspectives going on it. Just a thought.

It's quite a shame that those who keep propogating this rumor continue to do so without asking me directly.

My sails are 100% class legal, made by E/P and purchased as Nacra class sails. I bought them in January of 2010 and used them for the first time at Tradewinds. I am still using this same set of sails. They are not developmental sails, they are stock class sails.
When was the last time you bought a new set of stock sails?

What's your issue with me?

Whoever are spreading these lies should be truly ashamed of themselves.

Trey has completely stock sails. Anyone that wishes to challenge this statement of truth has their own agenda.

Perhaps they are jealous of the success Trey has had in recent years. They think he couldn't possibly have gotten as fast as he has through anything other than cheating. I mean, all those regattas he went to the past couple years like Rolex and Texel and training with olympian tornado teams, absorbing the knowledge of people like Heemskerk, Casey and Macca couldn't possibly have helped his natural sailing ability. Or perhaps sailing with stellar crew like Alan Stewart or Bailey White or Brian Payne or Jamie Livingston could have perhaps given him some refinement of his prowess.

It angers me not only because Trey is my good close friend who spoke at my wedding and would trust with my wife on a deserted island for 10 years, but because these lies haven't been broadcast by their originators. Stand up, speak up and let it be known who the solicitors of dishonesty truly are.

Regarding the N20 users group, anyone can request access by going to the URL:
http://groups.google.com/group/Nacra20

You have to request access, and Todd or I will grant it. Todd is correct that we can invite people as well.

Crap, now I've got to write Tad a check...

My issue was clearly stated in my last post. No reading between the lines there.
Did you have Skip Elliot make your sails? Was it a sail that was available to ANY other purchaser of Nacra 20 sails? There, I asked you directly.
I'm not discounting the fact that you've gotten faster in the last few years either. I think thats great.
BTW, the "rumor" originated right from your lips to your friends who told others. I was asked to keep my mouth shut about it till after the Tybee.

2007
We had an open class in the GT last year and I tried a new jib from an aftermarket maker as well as a new spinn the year before. The others in my class new it and I was open about it.

I'll say it again. The sails I bought are 100% stock, class legal, E/P sails that would be the same available to anybody else. I don't know who made them, I'm assuming it was Skip or Ian.
Why don't you give me a call and we can sort this stuff out. This rumor needs to stop here. You have a PM with my phone number.

Well, I guess if the rest of the class can go to EP directly and have thier sails made, then there is no further discussion, right? If I call them tomorrow and order them directly from them, will they tell me it's ok? Will you be ok with it? If so, then problem solved. I'll call you when I get a chance. BTW, don't take this so much as a personal attack, it's not really. I just want to know if the rest of us can do what you did to ensure we get the sails we want without getting protested at a Nacra class event. I contacted Peter Vink in regards to sail prices since they are a licensed sailmaker too.

That was beautiful. I think I shed a tear.

Joined today and already got approved.



Jumped In!!!!

What I got no cred with this group. So spending a few days at the county hospital going through a half gallon of rum and a couple cartons of cigarettes with a few Hells Angels doesn't count - huh!

I did that the other day for a jib and they wont sell the class legal sails direct. Told me to call Jack which I did, he told me to call a dealer or Murray's Marine.

Sounded like I caught him on a bad day!

Ok, I guess I need to word my question more clearly. Trey, did you order and purchase your sails from a Nacra dealer or directly from E/P? Which Nacra dealer? Were they re-cut? If so, by who?

Stop picking on Tad or I'll kick ur a$$. Tad, you can trust me with your money and your life but not your rum or your wife.

Where Trey bought his sails from, frankly, is his own damn business. Even if Trey purchased directly from E/P, I highly, highly doubt they would make a custom set without forking over some R&D money, and what exactly would be the point? Trey races, and has won, every major N20 regatta in the U.S, risking that reputation on some custom sails is frankly stupid.

In addition, I have personally handled every sail in Trey's inventory prior to the start of the Tybee. I have measured my sails against his sails. They were damn close given that mine were stretched out 3 year old sails, essentially rags by comparison to the brand new ones Trey was using.

These boats are complicated, over powered, fast SOB's. They take hard work, years of practice to become proficient at sailing, and compared with most of you I know damn little about sailing them fast. I do know that the vast majority of the class is a trustworthy bunch of individuals that would make no attempt to hide a custom batch of sails, mostly because the rest of us are curious to know if they really are any faster.

Class rules and Trey say different. You have to buy your sails through a dealer.
Personally I'm all for getting your sails from where ever you want as long as they measure in.
Didn't you sell your boat?

This made me laugh

So, now I know why Trey is so fast. Here I was all along thinking he was special or something.

You forgot to include yourself in that crew list

Bottom line is Trey is not a cheater. The conspiracy theorists need to find solace in the reality that his sails are legal and have no competitive edge.

I believe that. BUT, it is a bit suspect for someone to show up with new sails cut from cloth that had been unavailable to anyone else for 2 years. Trey told me that he tracked down the last purchaser of the smoke pentex and got Skip to buy it and make a sail for him. I think the issue is, could anyone have done this or did you need to be a "class rep"? The fact that basically the only thing he has done as "class rep" is to try to push the sail development (big props to him for this) and the info has not been coming to the class members leaves a few folks seeing the position as self serving. There really has been no updates on anything(state of the class,progress , ...) he's told me this stuff personally so I don't really have a problem with any of that, we just see different paths for the class. Personally., I see him as the scapegoat/fallguy for some one above him. If I had a problem with his sails , they would have been ,or will be protested. Simple as that.

Now, if we want to talk about Bailey....

Todd Hart

Holy cat capers batman!!! I wanted to learn about square top sails and I hit a real life soap opera.

BTW, square top sails are a FAD.

They are just reruns.

Sounds like Trey. He could sell ice to an Eskimo!!!

Ya'll are starting to make me want to get an I20 now..........

So - those who are claiming that Trey received some preferential treatment - Please tell me where Trey violated the following class rule:

http://www.nacraclass.com/interrules.htm



I'm at work - and I'll admit that I didn't do a thorough examination of the rules where it says "you must buy from a dealer." In fact, I did a search for "dealer" on that page and it doesn't appear in the whole body of the document.

Now, going directly to the "[sail]builders licensed by P.S.I." around the dealer certainly doesn't help the local dealer. However, if its not in the rules, then what is the grievance?

The material, method of construction and design of the sails were built in accordance with the sail plan by a licensed sail builder of P.S.I.

Thanks but the best thing that Trey did for his sailing ability is get rid of my dead weight.

So did luck out with this boat and get a smoke Pentex sail?

Well?? Trey?

Good read here.

. . . and it's just that simple, or maybe not. Makes me wonder how many sails including jibs and spins were privileged to Trey and the Velocity Sailing Team, and through what channels. Notice the main on Don's boat (sail #8008) also has the mixed colored cloth similar to Trey's. Link here. Were these sails purchased through a dealer?

Early posts indicate that new cut spins are in Trey's possession since fall. The class really has been in the dark about it. Who's testing, what regattas, how did they perform? Why haven't they been available to others to use? Two weeks ago I purchased a class spin. Last night I get the N20 group posting about the new flatter cut spin is to release end of this month, making my spin outdated before I get to sail it at the next regatta (Performance Midwinters). Phucking great! . . .and you wonder why folks are going open.

BTW, I love the N20 too. I bought it to race SMOD.

Tad, your kidding? Class President/Director, Corinthian spirit . . .

So much for the coffee. It's not too early for a rummie, is it?

Ventucky: No, I got a smoke main as well.

Ok, I see that now too. BUT, point is, when the rest of us (I haven't yet but will soon) try to buy direct from E/P, we get the old "call your dealer" response. Here's the caveat; You can get a sail for a N6.0 or 5.8, ect. directly from E/P as long as it's NOT a class sail (square top). They have no problem doing custom work.

I have not or will not call Trey a cheater. That's not what this is about. I think his performance would have been the same with other fresh sails. So, stop insinuating that I am. Trey wants me to call him but I have reservation about this since all this is about making whatever the truth is public, not private. I am a Nacra 20 sailor and owner. If Trey wants me to be on board with supporting the continued idea of keeping it a SMOD, then I need to know he is doing the same thing. If he's not, then why should I? If he wasn't the class rep, president, whatever you want to call it, I really could care less about what he does with his sails.

Bottom line question; Trey, what was the complete cenario regarding the purchase of the sails that you are currently sailing with, begining with placing your order {details like, were they cut specially for your weight?} and ending with recieving them?

Holy **** Philip you are off the ****ing deep end dude.

I bought my sails after my 2008 Tradewinds melt down through my dealer SailMax. If you'd like to verify that through Mike then go for it.

Don's sail is the same sail he bought with the boat from Jake and Frank.

Brett's sails are the same he bought with the boat from Titcomb.

If you are asserting that Velocity sailing is cheating by ordering sails directly from the manufacturer then you are way off base Philip and need to be put in your place for your reckless accusations. If we are all cheating then why the hell is everyone but Trey DFL in every Tybee?

If you'd like to discuss this further Philip, you have my phone number as you have called me many times before and had pleasant conversations.

Lee, I see what you're trying to say here. That because Trey supposedly went direct to EP that they considered it "custom work" and therefore the sail is not "class legal".

By all means, next Tybee go ahead and protest Trey for his supposedly non-class legal sail that wouldn't measure in because its supposedly "custom work." We'll get a measurer over and clear this up toot suite.

Then we'll go ahead and have a look at all the sails in the fleet at that point - and I'm 125% positive that you wont find an illegal sail in the Velocity stable. Check our boxes too - there are no skeletons there to be found.

Tad,
I'm afraid you're still missing the point. I have no doubt in my mind that everyone of your team's sails will measure in, including Trey's.
This isn't about cheating.

Tad, you are putting words in my mouth. It's not about cheating, and I'm not accusing anyone of cheating. My response was in reply to what Todd said. It was about transparency. I should be able to buy sails per the SMOD model. There is a question brought before us about that process. It's that simple. Go sailing Tad.

No mention of your sails, Brett's and others, just Don's as the two color sails are unique. I never saw that sail when it was Jake's boat. If it was then it has been answered, and I will apologize. Jake can chime in.

Jake doesn't need to chime in. Is this enough proof for you?



As for the process of buying sails, Trey did NOTHING WRONG per the rules and any accusation of such is tantamount to accusing him of cheating.

Tad ,get over yourself.
How about let Trey answer for himself, he's a big boy (again no pun intended).

If you're looking for the new spinnaker, EP has one for sale

http://www.epsails.com/used.htm

You see nothing wrong with one team being able to go directly to a sail maker and getting their sails custom cut for their crew weight (allegedly) yet the rest of the class does not have the same access... Really Tad!?

Like it or not the class president will be held to a higher standard, that's just how it works.

Ding, TREY DID NOT DO THIS. He bought his sails from Nacra using the class sailplan with Nacra approved sail materials built by the Nacra license sailmaker. There was no "custom cut" done - nor was his sail ever "recut".

And Trey isn't able to answer for himself because he's on the road travelling for work almost constantly.

hells bells - feel free to post about my sails or my boats...but I'll not be dragged into the **** fight.

Trey and I (both trying to work today) are having a healthy discussion via phone in between client calls and meetings. In the end, we both strive for the same goal, although the path to reach that goal is not clear. We will focus on that path. My desire is that what ever path N20 takes that the process is transparent, and put before all owners to vote. I understand that Trey's role as being the liaison between the factory and the owners is both a difficult and challenging task, one that I would not want to manage. We are bouncing around some good ideas. Clearly, N20 is at a crossroads.

As for the sails, it is obvious that the sails came directly from EP. That doesn't change the fact that Trey is an excellent sailor. So the dirty laundry has being aired. Trey can choose to answer the direct questions or not.

Tad, you really do need to go sailing. Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.

And unless Trey or anyone has secretly been using an endpole snuffer, the illegal use of the developmental sails is a mute point.

"Bottom line question; Trey, what was the complete cenario regarding the purchase of the sails that you are currently sailing with, begining with placing your order {details like, were they cut specially for your weight?} and ending with recieving them?"

In November of 2008 I wanted a new set of sails (just main and jib). I called Jack and told him that I was going to buy a new set, but I wanted it to be in smoke and white colors (Mike Krantz had the first set made, then me, then Jake, and then me again). Jack knew that smoke fabric wasn't available, or at least that E/P didn't have any. I called Skip at E/P and and got all the info for the cloth: manufacturer, model, cloth weight, etc. I told skip I'd find the fabric, he could order what he needed, and then I could have my smoke/white main. I found the cloth on the east coast up in NE somewhere and put Skip in touch. I kept in touch with Jack regarding the progress of the sails and when they'd be shipping them. They didn't get them finished in time to send to my house, so Jack shipped them to me for pickup at Tradewinds 2009. Jamie Livingston and I used them for the first time at that regatta.
They are not recut sails.
They are not cut to any specific weight.
They are not a new sailplan.
They are 100% the same as any of you can buy right now.
I did not buy them from E/P. My only involvement with Skip was to find the cloth.
Any more questions?

Devon, I'm sorry your thread has been hijacked. If you would like some solid advice on square top sails, I suggest you call Skip Elliot at E/P sails or maybe Jay Glaser with Glaser sails. Either of these 2 people will be more than willing to share unbiased, up-to-date info on what you're seeking.

Alright, who's next?

day-umm, where's my popcorn

Nope, that covers my original question.

This thread is way past popcorn...it requires alcohol at this point.

Do you really sleep in Power Ranger footy pajamas and are they Chinese knockoffs or real licensed Power Ranger pajamas?

Paul,
Don't you have a pink boat to rig?

Devon,
Trey's advice about contacting Skip Elliott or Jay Glaser is spot on.
I'll give you my thoughts on it and their worth what was paid for them. The "up" is good, not sure about the out. As far as I know the 18skiff "leech longer than the top of the mast thing" hasn't been done to that extreme on a cat. The p-19 MX actually extended the entire sail above the mast with a vertical batten. If you're not looking to stay SMOD I would talk to Jay Glaser about his A cat shapes and see if he could apply that to a main for your I-17. That's the direction I'll probably go with my N/I 20,except I won't go bigger just move around the area I have.

you better get a receipt for ever step of that process to keep us all happy too. Keeping it legit and all
sent your cover today.

Not even close, I take you have never been to a Laser or a J-24 protest meeting. Hell, Trey would have been protested on the beach and disqualified from even coming to the start line if the sails we're in the least bit in question/suspect. I would rather be Mubarak waking down the main street of Cairo then be on that hot seat - they through stuff at ya, spit in your face, key your car, kick you dog, and.........!

So I guess moving forward what is going to be the rule on sails? I'll be looking to upgrade my wardrobe over the next year or so which a jib and a spinnaker is going to happen real soon. Am I constrained to getting these through the NACRA network, or can I go to Glaser or Whirlwind and still be legal?

you'll have to go through the US Nacra network to remain class legal.

not that my opinion belongs here, cause I'm not an owner, but I say anarchy rules!!!!
In the end, if you own one of these boats you will likely be looking at a lot of DPN racing against boats that have open sail development (F18s). Might as well make it as fast as possible for its already low rating. If you guys think you will be predominantly racing against other N20s then keep it SMOD with development from one manufacturer. You have to be honest with yourself when you answer that question as a class.

Tybee--probably the biggest thing keeping these boats going--requires you to be class legal.

I think Chuck would give us an open class w/ 3 or more entrants and an exhibition class with less. That's what he was willing to do for the F 20c and Tornadoes, so I can't see why he wouldn't do it for OD (not SMOD) N-20s.

An accusation does not merit a DSQ. Every protest hearing I've been a part of, including lasers, only results in a DSQ in the case of finding fault in a proper hearing or after both parties agree to arbitration

If a boat doesn't pass class measurement/inspection, it won't be allowed to race. For a Laser, that would include making sure it has an authentic class button on the sail. For the Nacra 20, everything from the horse's mouth says Trey's gear would pass a measurement/inspection no problem. Do you not agree?

There is no sail button on the Nacra 20, but even if you contested Trey was still not telling the truth, do you think E/P would make a non-legal set of sails and risk the bad will of the class? Remember, this is the sailmaker that gave those who broke a kite in Tybee '09 a free replacement. I was very impressed. I'm have been further impressed that they are developing updated sails for a class that is relatively small and not growing, especially when I don't see many new sails during class races. All of the development is happening on the West Coast so we don't see it, but it is great to know that a new kite is coming out followed by other portions of the wardrobe. I hope the class rewards their work with some purchases.

BTW, Laser sailors are hoping to get a new full rig sail after 40 years of sailing and ~ 200,000 boats. Last I heard it was just about to be released.

Are there actually measurements for the Nacra 20 sails? I thought it was pretty much whatever EP sells as class legal is class legal.

If there are measurements, I'd assume they are pretty forgiving. The boltrope length between two of my mains differs atleast 4-5 inches. Two of my spinn luff length's differ around 4 inches and I've heard of as much as 18 inches difference between a batch that a dealer had.
Trey, sorry for holding your feet to the fire on this subject but I've heard too much about it and since nobody else would say anything to you, I thought I'd try to get the story out and put it to bed, good or bad. Frankly, if you weren't the class rep, I could care less what you did.

I am very familiar with EP sails as I have purchased a few sets from them over the years. AAMOF my office use to be right around the corner from them. And yes, they do stand behind their quality no questions about it. That is why they are one of the premier sail makers in Southern CA. That said, I know they will make you anything you want. What you do with it once it leaves Newport Beach is your business. Is this to say they are in collusion to make a illegal class sail, that's a reach!



Who are they doing this with, what boats, what fleet? Who is doing the testing, what are they finding out where is the information, etc........ That seems to be the issue here, there is talk about it happening but none knows what is going on at least some of the west coast owners I have talked to seem to know nothing. As I am looking to be dropping some serious coin on some new rags pretty soon, I would like to know. Should I wait for the new cut or.......

Guess when I go to EP later this week to drop of my jib sails to have some work done I can ask them what is going on.

[quote=NCSUtrey] so Jack shipped them to me for pickup at Tradewinds 2009. "

Then jack owes me some cash or rum!

Wow. What a day. Let’s see if I got this right:

I drank way to much coffee , and hence, successfully posted more in one day than H1616, Pete, and Jake combined.

Had the desire for a rummie before lunch.

Devon is scratching his head saying W.T.F, the hijack from hell I’m tellin’ ya.

This thread had more posts than Drill Baby Drill today.

Todd R (aka Punk) wasn’t around so Ding picked on Tad.

Sam is still hung up on R&D.

Catcaper Tshan was flushed out of the woodworks.

Jake wisely would not engage, and sat this one out on the sidelines.

Tawd . . .well Tawd is Tawd.

Trey wears power ranger footy pajamas.

Patrick is an anarchist.

The defending SMOD N20 Tybee500 Champion sails started a journey in Smokepentaxvillage, New England, to Newport Beach on to Islamorada ending on the shores of Tybee Island, somehow along the way missing every Nacra Dealer in the country.

Tad went ALL CAPS today, and is still trying to translate Latin.

And Lee, in reality, doesn’t really care. So, Bob's your Uncle.

I friggin’ love this gang. I’ll get my coat now. Oh, and most importantly,

WAR DAMN EAGLE!

When it comes down to it, there are only two things I DO care about; Sailing and pu&&y. The order depends on the wind and company at hand. Trey, I'll buy the first round when I see you again.. maybe at Tybee this year. And if you come do the GT, I promise not to run into you in the surf.

Unless you turn in front of him or change your name to Yost, either one validates the move.

Phillip,
Nice summary.

Am I allowed to feel the warm and fuzzies now?

Yeah, you passed. I had to press you hard for an answer. I wasn't pretty about it but there was alot of buzz regarding the subject from other's (not just me). I guess I figured I'd try to pop the zit and see if it would go away regardless of the facts that came out of it. As stated, I could care less as long as we all knew the whole story. Thanks for stating the whole cenario because I think it cleared up a big grey area.

Now, wipe your nose on your sleeve and I'll stop picking on you.
AND, someone needs to go give Tad a hug, I think he took this harder than Trey did. Can someone look under the bed to see if he's there?

That's my experience as well. No two sails alike. It makes me kind of giggle when everybody gets all up on the OD sail thing, all "equal sails" and all. They ain't equal. How could anybody tell if anything was re-cut? Lay my main on top of yours and you'd think I had a bunch of luff curve added in a re-cut. Lay my two spinnakers on top of each other and you see two different sails. It's great that new sails are being designed. Will they be consistent? If I buy them through the local dealer and not from Jack, will they make me happy?

+ 1 The dam problem i got now though is I am in cains and about to be destroyed by a cyclone cat. 5 my I17 is unsecured in the open just sitting on its trailer at the club, I cant get to it and big trees all round it, im pretty sure its gunna be smashed big time if not just blown away...Lucky it is insured with club marine and Bris Cat centre Nacra have a almost new F17 there...Chocko is in cairns also with a brand new 4.5 in his carport, he filled his hulls with water so hope his is ok..Wish us luck...will keep u posted, but this is ****ing scarey...300 plus KLM. HR. winds expected 8 hours till it hits us..

Stay safe. New boat sounds better than new sails.
Keep us updated on how you fared as soon as you can.
Good luck.

New Sails come with a new boat. Get to a safe place man. I rode out Hurrican Ike here in Texas. Not even half way through I knew it was a bad idea. Scary ****. The worst will be after the storm, believe me. I'm praying for youguys.

http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?Nid=79896&refre=y&ntid=119&rid=1
http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
Hunker down ,Devon.

WOW thats pretty ugly looking (the cyclone)
Stay safe.

"..are they Chinese knockoffs or real licensed Power Ranger pajamas"

easy to tell... the "lead lines" on his fingernails

And since Ding has banned OH-SNAP from this site, I'll just say "SLAP-CHOP" instead.

why aren't they making any more N20s? Are we getting thinner and I missed the memo?


I can almost afford one... now I just need the vehicle to pull it... I'll take Karl's truck for $500

what, because nacra is now fighting for the pink team?

Save the tah tah's a very good cause! Go Nacra!

Now what can we do for the single mothers.... Got it! Bret give me a call we have crime to fight!

I just thought that was Trey's pink power ranger edition F20C

Oh! Mary Kay has sponsored a team, or is a team selling Mary Kay at the regattas?

There are about four sets of NACRA 20 hulls sitting at the factory assembly/distribution depot in Santa Ana, CA right now. I'm sure if you wanted a new one you would get it.

Last time I was there they were getting together a few Carbon 20's for shipment. Those boards are a work of art!

That was the original Team Tybee N20, it's now called the Flesh Rocket or Fleshy for short.

Wait... I thought the good Dr.'s N20 was Flesh Rocket. Used to be the original Amana A/C boat from Ocala, right?

And before that it was THE OG Team Tybee boat.

The flesh rocket doesn't belong to the doctor anymore. She has a new owner.

Would that be Bryan? Or is it a Nacra secret?

so what is the doc sailing now?

A big boat ,around the world.

Which big boat, cruising or something hoping to be home in less than 48 days with a broken curved foil at the moment?

I'll answer my questions

1) I sold the boat, no cash to keep it to my standards of race ability, and no matter how great the N20 is, its dying with the F20c and the F18's taking over. I can't afford either of those until I get a real job (aka never since the word from the top is "there are no jobs in aerospace")

2) I gave up on R&D when I out climbed a double trapped F18 under spinnaker with the N20 double trapped under spinnaker. I also managed to gain then hold off Mischa, bow out below him, for 1 mile or so at the start of the Cocoa Beach to Daytona leg of the Tybee. It was light conditions, the 20 was powered up nicely and we were heading upwind, the only point of sail and wind conditions I can actually round the mark in the top 1/3rd of the fleet in. The 20 is fast as is, if Mischa was on a 20 he still would have beaten Trey. Its the nut on the end of the tiller, who also happens to control his mast rake and diamond wire tension on the day of the race, who makes a fast boat go.

On that note, if anyone needs crew for Tybee on a 20 or F18 please let me know. I'll cover my expenses, logistics through Velocity, and I've done the race before, kept the hulls, dagger boards, and sails in one piece, and actually managed to finish higher than DFL.

-Sam

We survived, i gotta say it was scarey though, so i guess i will now be needing a new square top for my I17

Glad you're OK. So the boat survived?

I heard he was doing an extended circumnavigation with his family. That seems like it would fit he and his family perfectly.Cool stuff.

I wouldn't sweat the F-20c "taking over " yet as there is all of one( plus a platform w/ no mast) in the states racing. If I had the Jack( Not Young, cash), there would be two racing.

"I can't afford either of those until I get a real job (aka never since the word from the top is "there are no jobs in aerospace")"

What's your background?

We wont mention the boom :P

Keith: he's in school at my alma mater for Aerospace engineering. From what I can tell - he's bloody smart.

Sam majored in
Knowitall w/ a minor in postwithoutfirsthandknowledgeology.

A buddy of mine sais its fine but will see when i go to lake to race next sunday

Well, there are jobs, depends on where you look. If he's more space then aero he can drop a resume' with my company, you never know...

hey. hey, maybe I was looling to have him work for the "man"...

"Work for the Man" - is that the latest euphemism?

Chris, I thought you quit male prostitution?
You do have the look though, so I guess go with what ya got.
Well, if that's the case I think you pegged (no pun intended) Sam right.

Now that was funny! Thanks. I knew I should have charged you more for staying in the "fag pad" in Oxford...

Slight correction - There's one F20C racing plus one F20C with TWO masts. It just happens that neither of the mast pieces is long enough for the sails supplied.

The broken mast will be repaired, and used until the replacement arrives, which should be well before the Northern California racing season starts in earnest. At which point there will be two F20Cs actively racing in the US.