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Strange but real right-of-way question

Posted By: JACKFLASH

Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 02:54 PM

So in a non race scenario, who has write away? An F18 screaming on a starboard reach with the kite up, or a sea plane coming in for a landing. It actuall was not that close but imagine my surprise to see this thing coming down behind us. Then he turned toward us as he taxi'd around the lake before taking off again. Yet another first for me.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 03:05 PM

Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Rule 18

Responsibilities Between Vessels

Except where rule 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:

(a)A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing;

(iv)a sailing vessel;

(b) A sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; (dont go near the big ships...)

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing; (they get really pissed)

(c)A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.

(d)

(i)Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.

(ii) A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition.

(e) A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation. In circumstances, however, where risk of collision exists, she shall comply with the Rules of this Part.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 03:54 PM

Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton
Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Not true at all. Seaplane has to give way to a sailboat. Also vessels engaged in towing have to give way to sailboats UNLESS they are displaying shapes/lights for "restricted in ability to maneuver." They are only restricted in ability to maneuver if they are displaying the shapes/lights.

I do agree about common sense though! Sailboats generally can get out of the way and should do so. Also changes when navigating VTS lanes.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 04:32 PM

I guess a seaplane can't veer from the moment it touches the water until it slows down enough to do it without capsizing. Wouldn't it be fair to consider that it is restricted in its ability to maneuver during this period?
Posted By: pgp

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 04:36 PM

There are some great cartoons in here somewhere. Too bad I can't draw.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz
I guess a seaplane can't veer from the moment it touches the water until it slows down enough to do it without capsizing. Wouldn't it be fair to consider that it is restricted in its ability to maneuver during this period?


Nope. Basic right of way pecking order seaplane always gives way to sailboat.

"Restricted in Ability to Maneuver" means the vessel is displaying shapes or lights to indicate they are restricted. This is defined in the COLREGS. There is no interpretation of a vessels ability to maneuver, either they are displaying these shapes or not.

Now, if a seaplane is coming in to land and a vessel changes course as to interfere with the course of the plane, you have a different scenario. But, the seaplane is required to keep clear and plan its approach such that it will not force another vessel to change course because of its actions. In Victoria Harbor on Vancouver Island the seaplanes come in and out of the harbor all the time. There are very defined traffic lanes for seaplanes and water vessels, and they are very close. Sometimes can be scary because they will bank hard and descend very quickly, in very close proximity to vessels in the water. You have to stay in your traffic lane and trust the seaplane will do the same.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Rule 18 sub part e, of the open water Collision Regulations (col regs) apply here. It sort of common sense. Logic and col regs dictates that the less manueverable craft should have the right-of-way.
A vessel towing anything will have ultimate right of way. Sail boats and unpowered craft come next on the food chain. Then there are power boats. Howerver a sea-plane is less maneuvarable than a power boat/do not have reverse, limited steering on water. Unless the sea-plane has an open commercial lane, here is Col Reg 18 with part (e):


Not true at all. Seaplane has to give way to a sailboat. Also vessels engaged in towing have to give way to sailboats UNLESS they are displaying shapes/lights for "restricted in ability to maneuver." They are only restricted in ability to maneuver if they are displaying the shapes/lights.

I do agree about common sense though! Sailboats generally can get out of the way and should do so. Also changes when navigating VTS lanes.


Sloan, That's what I was trying to imply by '18e', (the bird must give ROW to the sailing vessel). That said, the common sense application of 'avoid collision by all means' certainly applies on a long taxi by the sea-plane. While the sailboat may have ROW over a sea-plane taxiing at take-off speed, you'd have to be out of your mind to hold an intercepting course.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 07:35 PM

I was asking more for curiosity sake. I had never encountered a sea plane before yesterday. I will tell you that if I was in his way I would not have been able to get out of his way in time. By the time we realized the noise being heard was a seaplan he 15 feet above the water and moving at a good clip. When he was taxing he kept a desent distance but he was close enough we could see the pilot giving a freindly waive through the **** glass.
Posted By: Peter_Lyons

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 09:09 PM

As another case, I have had a helicopter fly onto the race course to pick up water to fight a nearby bush fire (do you call them wildfires in the U.S.?). Thankfully it was just after the start and all of the boats were grouped together at the other end of the course.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 09:53 PM

You guys are on it. COLREGS should always be the first place to look regarding ROW questions.

Fire helicopter vs. sailboat? Thankfully, you don't see THAT every day! (Yes, we call them wildfires, also known as forest fires or brush fires as appropriate.)

Now, whether or not you believe that the US interstate system was designed for this; occasionally, small planes do make emergency landings on highways. Where does it say who has the right of way there?

Mike
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 10:06 PM

Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton

Sloan, That's what I was trying to imply by '18e', (the bird must give ROW to the sailing vessel). That said, the common sense application of 'avoid collision by all means' certainly applies on a long taxi by the sea-plane. While the sailboat may have ROW over a sea-plane taxiing at take-off speed, you'd have to be out of your mind to hold an intercepting course.


Agree. As I always say, theres "right" and theres "dead right"! Like pedestrians walking into a busy lane of traffic, you might have right of way, but is it worth your life to take it?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.


Was in East Germany just after the wall came down and there are/were areas where the central reservation was fully covered with the barriers in; thus (I assumed at the time) that these could be removed easily and thus provide extra run-ways.....



Posted By: Rhino1302

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/07/11 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Some say it is folklore other not. But the story is that one in five miles of interstate are built straight and flat to serve as an emergency runway in times of war. Rather that is true or not I don't know. I do know that part of the big push for the interstate system from Eisenhower was to be able to move troops quickly from place to place. This purpose, I beleive was the reason for the Autobahn.


That was the intent, but there was a SNAFU in the shipping department. It turned out to be cheaper to reshape the terrain throughout the country to fit the roadway sections delivered, which is why Nebraska is so flat, and why there's very few 1-mile long tangents throughout most hilly and mountainous areas.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.

Quote
A commercial vessel is defined by the United States Coast Guard as any vessel (i.e. boat or ship) engaged in commercial trade or that carries passengers for hire.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.


Conclusion: either the sea plane displays the proper shapes and lights during take off and landing or he'd better find a wide empty area.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.

Quote
A commercial vessel is defined by the United States Coast Guard as any vessel (i.e. boat or ship) engaged in commercial trade or that carries passengers for hire.


Don't think that is the case. I will have to check my books.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 01:25 PM

The bay where I'm sailing is a regular training area for military submarines. It happened to me last year that a half dived vessel was directly coming my way - only the last meter of the periscope was visible. I was downwinds with spi and saw nothing than the stern wash from the (admittingly perfectly camouflaged ...) periscope in the very last moment- I passed so close by that I feared for my boards. This was very, very frightening! What would have been the rules here?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 01:45 PM

Any vessel armed with torpedo's has right-of-way.
Posted By: kyle robberts

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 02:03 PM

New Reels catch fish so purchase some
not under command
restricted in ability to maneuver
constrained by draft
fishing
sailboat
power boat (last in pecking order is sea plane)
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/08/11 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
Sailboat always has right of way over sea plane. That said there is a level of common sense if they are coming in to land.


Not if it's a commercial vessel. Only if it's recreational.

Quote
A commercial vessel is defined by the United States Coast Guard as any vessel (i.e. boat or ship) engaged in commercial trade or that carries passengers for hire.


I don't see anything in rule 3 that defines "commercial vessel". Can you point me to where "commercial vessel" is defined and where it sits in pecking order? Don't see in rule 18 any mention of "commercial vessel".

Rule 3 defines "restricted in her ability to maneuver" as "a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel." But, "from the nature of her work" does not mean engaged in commercial trade, it is defined later in rule 3, and no where mentions "commercial trade" or "commercial vessel".
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/09/11 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sloansailing

I don't see anything in rule 3 that defines "commercial vessel". Can you point me to where "commercial vessel" is defined and where it sits in pecking order? Don't see in rule 18 any mention of "commercial vessel".

Rule 3 defines "restricted in her ability to maneuver" as "a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel." But, "from the nature of her work" does not mean engaged in commercial trade, it is defined later in rule 3, and no where mentions "commercial trade" or "commercial vessel".


"Commercial vessel is defined by the USCG. It's not explicitly mentioned in the RRS, but many SI's specifically state that commercial vessels have right-of-way. I know this isn't a race situation, but if it were and if the SI's stated boats must give way to commercial vessels then it could be possible that a sea plane could have ROW provided it meets the criteria of a commercial vessel.





Posted By: John_C

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/10/11 01:59 AM

Our sailing club has the question about taxiing seaplanes on a written test. Years ago someone that had taken the test came up to me and said that he had a seaplane license, and his job was working with FAA regulations. He said that he was going to tell us we were wrong about seaplanes not having right of way, but he decided to check first and found out he was wrong.

I think the chances that seaplane pilots don't know the rules for while they're on the water is pretty high.

He also said he got interested in sailing because he got curious as to why sailboats kept turning in random directions to get in his way.

John
Posted By: Jake

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/10/11 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by John_C
Our sailing club has the question about taxiing seaplanes on a written test. Years ago someone that had taken the test came up to me and said that he had a seaplane license, and his job was working with FAA regulations. He said that he was going to tell us we were wrong about seaplanes not having right of way, but he decided to check first and found out he was wrong.

I think the chances that seaplane pilots don't know the rules for while they're on the water is pretty high.

He also said he got interested in sailing because he got curious as to why sailboats kept turning in random directions to get in his way.

John


[slaps forehead]

Oh dear lord...
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/16/11 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
Originally Posted by Sloansailing

I don't see anything in rule 3 that defines "commercial vessel". Can you point me to where "commercial vessel" is defined and where it sits in pecking order? Don't see in rule 18 any mention of "commercial vessel".

Rule 3 defines "restricted in her ability to maneuver" as "a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel." But, "from the nature of her work" does not mean engaged in commercial trade, it is defined later in rule 3, and no where mentions "commercial trade" or "commercial vessel".


"Commercial vessel is defined by the USCG. It's not explicitly mentioned in the RRS, but many SI's specifically state that commercial vessels have right-of-way. I know this isn't a race situation, but if it were and if the SI's stated boats must give way to commercial vessels then it could be possible that a sea plane could have ROW provided it meets the criteria of a commercial vessel.


Where does the US Coast Guard define "commercial vessel" was my question... Its not in the COLREGS. I am not talking about RRS or Sailing Instructions, I am talking about the COLREGS, in which sailboats have right of way over sea planes, whether they are a "commercial vessel" or not. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one...
Posted By: brucat

Re: Strange but real right-of-way question - 03/16/11 06:05 PM

This may be over-simplifying this, but it doesn't really matter. As you mentioned above, there's "right" and there's "dead-right".

Stay away from seaplanes. If you crash into one (more likely, one crashes into you), it's probably going to be up to your relatives to sort out who had the right of way.

Mike
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