TNZ flipped AC-45

Waiting to get pics and more stories but now 2 have flipped.

Emirates Team New Zealand today confirmed that their AC45 had capsized in Auckland while training today.

The one design wingsailed catamaran left the Viaduct Harbour just before 1000hrs this morning and returned soon after noon.

A Team confirmed the incident had taken place when approached by Sail-World, saying the time of the capsize was late this this morning (Wednesday) NZT.

The yacht toppled on to its side as it rounded a mark. No one was injured. The yacht was righted without incident and it sailed back to base, Sail-World was told.

Minor damage to the top of the wing will be repaired overnight and the yacht will be back on the water tomorrow.

Skipper Dean Barker said the capsize was all part of the learning process. 'Every time we take the yacht out we test to the limits in the conditions prevailing otherwise there’s no point to the testing process.'

No cameras were on hand to video the incident. A southwesterly wind (offshore) was blowing at the time gusting to 29 kts.

Emirates Team NZ are the second team to capsize an AC45. The first being the Swedish Artemis Racing about a month ago, when the wing stalled and the yacht tipped over while the crew were taking a break in training. The damage took three days to repair.

On that occasion the damage was more severe, and for America's Cup event organisers and teams it is encouraging to see that the wingsailed boats can capsize without creating major rig destruction.

The AC45 is due to be sailing tomorrow along with Camper, the Emirates Team NZ campaigned Volvo 70, launched last week.

Trials for the 34th America's Cup race management are due to get underway next week on the Hauraki Gulf, and are not expected to be impacted by this incident.

Gusting to 29 and they went out to practice? Practice what, bleeding? And they fipped...geez, did not see that coming...

Have they decided what the limits will be for the bigger cats in the actual AC Regatta yet?

Limits for the big cats will be 33knots. ... They need to be practicing!

Yeah...practicing rescues!

And if they had stayed on the beach the forum response would have been... "good call guys, you don't want to break a nail"

The pucker factor on those things in that breeze has to be off the chart! Lucky bastards!

It is got to be easier to go out in upper wind conditions when you know that if it breaks someone else will fix it and pay for it. And the response of we are testing the limits works to get you out of trouble for breaking the boat.

WTF? These are professional sailors, going after a major international trophy. Did you read Barkers quote? You could turn the boats over in 15 knots too, but the fact they are out in the breeze is laudable.

Not everyones balls are as small as yours, and their boats are probably much more capable too.

Back off on the BS criticism and accept that at least some people push the limits.

I'm reminded of an old saying we have in flying, "There's a thin line between brave and stupid."

So tell me Mr. Big Nutz, at what point does Big Balls turn into Fkng stupid? And how much "practice" did they accomplish? About all they learned was, "Well, I guess we won't do that again." Brilliant.

As Jake pointed out 33 is the upper limit for the big boats and they were still below that limit.

I'm quite sure they learned more than just "we won't do that again"?

Props to NZL for going out and learning how to go fast in ALL conditions!

Watching these guys run the big rigs in 30 knots is going to be spectacular and by the time they get to the big show they will make it look effortless.

"Props to NZL for going out and learning how to go fast in ALL conditions."


Um, note to Ding, swimming is not "...fast in ALL conditions."

If they had NOT flipped it and had actually gone sailing instead of swiming, then yes, but swimming is slow and they learned -nothing- of going fast in 29 knots...only how NOT to go fast in 29knots.

Do they have any C class racers on board who can help them with the wing adjustments? I'm sure they know how to drive so I'm thinking the wing trim has got them a little confused, unless something broke or got jammed up that caused them to flip it. And if it's blowing 29 at the surface, I'm sure it was over 40 up at the wing tip. Can't wait to see how the bigger cats do in 33 (with over 50 at the top of the wing!)

Tim are you for real or are you just f'in with me?

Capsizing is all a part of the game! Its one of the things that set us apart from the 1/2 boats. you have to admit walking that thin line of brave to stupid is exciting. Even more so when you are on a 45 foot cat. sign me up! I pitch poled my 18HT 2 weeks ago reaching with the kite at 19.3 kts. (Speed puck confirmed after the fact) That was fun! Flew around the boat just forward of the leeward bow. No one got hurt and nothing broke. WIN/WIN
I can hardly wait for the AC!!

Capt'n, your story, and I'd stick to it, was that you were just checking out the jib and bridle wire while underway!

Well Dave, here's the thing. These guys are profesionals, and they are going out to "Practice" in high wind, on a big, expensive, cat. I don't know what their objective was for the day, maybe it was; "Let's see what it takes to flip this thing!"

In that case, good job. Maybe they were trying to get some "practice" for their rescue team and shore team too.

These are not beach cats, you can't just right it and contiue on. These things are very expnsive and it takes a lot of time and money to repair them. Maybe they have a big budget and lots of time, I don't know.

It seems stupid to me to waste the time and money on reparis, instead of working up slowly to the max winds. Afterall, they were not racing, they were out to learn the boat, right? I'd say they learned what not to do...so maybe it was time and money well spent.

Like I said earlier, "We won't do that again!"

Expensive is a very relative term.
And they said they would be back on the water the next day.

Tim I get the impression you feel these guys acted irresponsibly, in my opinion that could not be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that they must know how to sail these boats on the ragged edge even at the upper wind limit. What would be irresponsible is to have never sailed the boat at the upper wind limit during practice only to be forced to sail in those conditions at the championship totally unprepared.

I have no doubt that during the post day debrief they saw exactly what they did wrong and figured exactly what they have to to fix it. I think you really underestimate the talent, discipline and dedication these guys have.

If you're a player in the AC game you better have the scratch to play otherwise you're just wasting your time.

Glenn Ashby ETNZ Main trimmer sailed the last LAC and Magnus Clarke, winning crew and co-designer of the last two LAC champions is on the ETNZ design team and has been seen out on the boat a few times. So yes there is C class experiance on board.

In NZ 29 knts is considered a pretty tame breeze. It's amazing to see how many boats head out to pleasure-sail, let alone race, in winds that scare the bejesus out of average sailors in many counrties. I'm pretty sure the question of not going out never even came up.

Tim,
You are totally lost. Race cars crash, motorcycles crash, bikes crash, stunt planes crash, sailboats crash, thats what the top of the game is about, pushing the limits of what can be done. Do you know how long they were out before they capsized? Neither do I, but I'd bet it was long enough to learn something about the boat, and how to make it go in high wind.

Expensive boats? Yeah they are and these guys are paid thousands of dollars a day to sail them. Do you know what the Oracle tri entourage was equipped with when they went out on the water to test it? Divers, medics, jaws of life, just because they knew they were pushing the envelope. Thats the game they are playing and my bet is they know how to play it better than you.

Not trying to be hostile but you are totally off base in your criticisms.

Oh, and its not blowing 40 at the top of the spar when ground wind is 29. How do I know? The masthead of the boat I run is 100 feet off the water, and we have never seen a 30% difference in ground wind vs wind aloft. Most I would say is maybe 5-10% tops.

Dave is right on with his comments.

Travel out, head up, spill a little more off the top. Figure out how to sail it flat and keep it driving in 33 knts. That is their job. They are being paid to win.

And...they were practicing, not racing.

My own personal motto; thou shall not understand the true existence of "the limit" if thou does not exceed it on occasion.

I'd like to read the details if they do an incident report. I'm wondering if something broke, or got stuck coming around the mark in the bear away, and what actually caused it to flip. I'm guessing it was designed to stand up to (and be driven in) what ever the maximum wind speed is that they picked.

It's one thing to be out racing, to be in second place of a two boat race, and you need to push it "to the limit" to get into first place. It's another thing entirely to crash the boat while out "Practicing" and risk destroying the boat, the wing and more importantly, a crew member or two.

For what?

These things are not beach cats. You could get killed in a crash with the loads and the speeds they are making. The 72 footers will be even more loaded up and subject to more pain if/when they find "the limits". As in that video Jake posted of the soft sailed VX 40's that were crashing, one guy said, "It's a good thing we were wearing our helmets."

But they were racing, not practicing.

If my view of Practice makes me a great big pussy, so be it, I can -live- with that.

When is the last time any of you keyboard comando's went out and sailed your punny little beach cats in 29knots? How'd that work out for you?

OK, now go out on a 45' wingmasted carbon fiber monster and find "the limits".

Yeah, right.

Timbo,

I usually lean towards "safety" .....

...but ....

That's why those guys make the BIG $$$$$$$'s ....

(as a airline pilot .... I applaud your views on safety .... because there ... there is NO margin of safety too large ....)

Harry

So, they are being paid to flip big expensive boats when out practicing?

Hell I can do that...and I'll do it for -half- of what ever they are paying these guys! Where do I sign up?

;^)

From Mr. Sloansailig above:

"Expensive boats? Yeah they are and these guys are paid thousands of dollars a day to sail them. Do you know what the Oracle tri entourage was equipped with when they went out on the water to test it? Divers, medics, jaws of life, just because they knew they were pushing the envelope. Thats the game they are playing and my bet is they know how to play it better than you."


Yes, they do, and please tell me how many times they flipped the Oracly Tri when out for a practice sail?

See...I thought they were getting paid the Big Bucks to NOT flip the boat, and who said they were "Finding the Limit" of -anything- when it happened?

Maybe they just fkd up?

Dude, you act like they're spending YOUR money.

Give it a rest and enjoy the show.

I'd love to 'enjoy the show', but the show I want to see is big cats sailing fast, not big cats lying on their sides.

I thought the AC45 were designed just to do what they were doing so they would have a better understanding when it came to the 72's. I recall one AC defender that did not push the limits in practice just to have there boat fall apart in the cup match. Lessons learned.

Practice is when you are supposed to make mistakes and get them out f the way. It's like the starting practice I had the other day...I was over early 3 out of 5 times because it was an opportunity to push it where it didn't matter. These guys get paid to do well in the main event. Their sponsors are happy that way. Their sponsors also get happy when there stuff is shown around the world before hand and talked about (like now). It's all good. It's part of the deal.

Three weeks ago we were out with our training partner in 20-25 gusting over 30. Really raised the confidence level. We didn't hoist the kite, but our partner boat did. They pitchpoled, righted, and kept sailing. Both of us gained a lot of experience and considering we've only been sailing the boat a year, I was happy that my wife was willing to go out, and we are both way better off because we did. Last weekend when the wind built to 20, we felt totally confident, and we knew what to do to make the boat settle down. And thats why you go out in the upper wind limits.

Look the fact is the AC is considered by many to be the pinnacle of the sport. At that level of sailing, you better have your **** together. The Tri was a one off build that couldn't be replaced. The 45's are series production one design boats, with more on the way and common parts and pieces. Big difference. They cost a tiny fraction what the tri did.

Whats amazing is that they didn't damage the wing more than a little bit. This is showing more and more that the wings are more durable than many people thought.

" We didn't hoist the kite, but our partner boat did. They pitchpoled, righted, and kept sailing."

So using your own earlier logic, you know, back when you said I had little balls, you should have also hoisted your own kite and crashed too, you would have learned so much more, right? Especially if that crash had led to a broken mast and a tow back to the beach.

And just think of all the 'new confidence' your wife would now have in your driving abilities after that!

Thanks for making my point.

But what if they learned from their pitchpole and know how to do it right next time?

As I said back on page 2 of this way too long winded non-sense of a thread:

I don't know what their objective was for the day, maybe it was; "Let's see what it takes to flip this thing!"

In my opinion (and it is MINE, you go get your own!) a true Professional Crew would take a new boat right up to the limit, then pull it back just a little bit, and slowly work their way up to "Ohh Sheet, back off!" and not go straight to "Now We're Fkd!"

I'm going to assume they are the best and they know what they are doing. I'm going to assume the designers and builder knew what wind and loads to build to.


So I'm going to assume something -unusual- happened, ie. someting broke or "The Gust from Hell" came along and knocked them over.

But until we hear from someone onboard as to exactly what happened, I'll assume they were not trying to push it to (and over) the limit just to see what would happen.

When it comes to racing, to win, first you have to finish. You don't have to push it to the limit, just a little harder than the other guy.

Tim, I think you would acknowledge that a DOG race platform demands a different approach than the working-up of a one design AC45 type of program. Essentially preservation of the prime asset vs all out maximizing of the tool of the trade. How many times have we been in awe of the skilled buggers who have had the balls to set the kite in insane conditions to come from behind and deservedly win.(more impressive was that 18' skiff that was ahead when it set the chute on the last leg in Sidney an won the series and schooled the fleet).Prudence might be wise, but mastering intimidating situations to absolute victory is how legends are born, and how sponsors are flock to the program. These guys operate in a different paradigm. Dollars are abundant to those who dare and win. A few million spent on broken parts in pursuit of victories that bring in tens of millions is a reasonable investment. however, Im rather glad that as an airline pilot you don't have the cowboy gene necessary to think these stunts are normal.
Cheers,
Pete

Breaking stuff is in their budget / business plan. Breath in, breath out, move on...

Here's how you do it correctly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GRZGQzDTDaU


On the Cowboy Gene thing, yeah we all have it or we wouldn't be racing cats, right?

I know I could never have survived Air Force Pilot Training or flown 4 ship formation at 500 knots without it. I was lucky to have survived myself, I had lots of friends who were not as lucky. Given the choice of luck or skill, I'll take luck, but I know I've already used up most of my luck!

Your (almost) menstrual about this.

Well it is my time of the month!

Are you kidding!!!!! Hell, have trained in average 30 and came back without swimming and I am sure I am far from the only one here. Some people enjoy sailing in a bit of breeze.

Now let’s see...... These things are designed for a limit of 33 knots. It was gusting 29, could have even been averaging in the teens. The Tornado class limit is 25 knots sustained and in those conditions, you could easily see gusts over 30 during the race.

We do not all need

I thought so!

As you all know, this a common beachcat issue and I have capsized mucho times doing this transition there are two methods I have learned as I have never been successful just turning the corner in the high wind range unless I get lucky and turn in a lull.

One way; going around the weather mark from close hauled to downwind the cat will momentarily go on a reach, if I do not twist the main & jib a bit the cat will go over sideways. And I must make it a moderate turn, if I make a sharp turn, it just drives the lee hull down the mine. During the maneuver the jib needs to be released (blipped) for a second at the reach point of sail (to prevent a reach pitchpole) then quickly hauled back into stall the main to prevent the downwind pitchpole, then release/trim for speed the jib to powerup once the transition is completed.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 25nt is SLOW)

Second way; if I know from reading the conditions and boat behavior on the upwind leg that it is really honking, and I want to survive the mark rounding, I will modify the above. A moderate turn, and at 90 to the wind, dump both main traveler and jib sheet momentarily, then once downwind quickly bring them back both in to prevent the ensuing downwind pitchpole. The wilder things are the harder the crew sheets in the jib stalling the main to prevent the downwind pitch pole.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 25nt is SLOW)

Third way; yours?

Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Or stalled?
Sailing stalled out (falling in an airplane) with managed projected area (twist or travel) is my key to reducing the excess of wind power. Every notice how slow it is when the crew over sheets the jib, he is STALLING / depowering the sails. Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Sailing stalled out with managed projected area is the my key to reducing the excess of wind pressure.

Catamaran mark rounding changed with the addition of spinnaker, turning around the weather mark quickly no longer became a priority in moderate winds. The priority became going hot around the mark, setting the chute, and protecting your wind, from the attacking boat behind. If you turn the mark to quickly, there is a good chance the boat behind will blanket/ pass you with a hotter/faster angle. However,pushing the envelope in the high wind range as the AC 45 did, does not make any sense to me, as you are already going very close to top speed, and already on the verge of losing it.

Observing recent x40 video the cat that went over was sailing hot around the mark had their traveler out and powered up, vs ETNZ behind had theirs only a couple feet out from center and going comparatively slow.

Perhaps just depower wing by twisting the top section independently?

These guys have proved like beachcats you can not just bear away around the mark like a keelboat, and need to read the conditions and sail accordingly, or figure out a way to stall the wing making the transition. Moderate conditions the bear away is no big deal and passing is possible, but at the top of the wind range / top speed, push the envelope to where?

Except there's no jib on a 18HT... Here goes the excuse!

Oracle white flips during the practice event.
Pics: http://chriscameron.photoshelter.co...acle-capsize-26-4-2011/G0000fu_LwjJ.eb8/

Great footage!

I agree! It's going to be a great series and I couldn't be more pleased that they will sail in some breeze!

It has to be sketchy dealing with a solid wing in winds like that. Mainly because I don't think anyone can be used to depowering them quickly. Of course I could be wrong... but think about it.
and another thing... does anyone think these boats could use a little more volume up front?

There's a video of Oracle standing one of these things up in breeze comparable to this... and it just trucked along.

In this scenario, Spithill said that they didn't have the boat "setup properly for the run". In the pics, you can see what appears to be the leward dagger all the way down which would generate a bit of lift going downwind

Sail-World has a nice article with pictures. Also I read somewhere that TNZ just hired Morrelli and Melvin to "...adress the volume in the bow issues..."

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Oracle-Racings-James-Spithill-joins-the-Mile-High-Club/82857

My experience is if you do not stall the rig (as described above) before the puff downwind or making the transition you will pitchpole or capsize.
Letting the sails out or stalling the rig after the puff does not work in the higher wind range. And a crew member can call the puffs.
The wind speed at the tip is what 40nt?, and having the boards up would help:
however, the wing has 2x(+) more lift than a beachcat sail, so all the more importance to stall the wing.

It looked like they managed to right the boat without outside assistance. Am I wrong?

Yes you are
They used two RIBs, one to right it and one to keep it head to wind