What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls

What can we do if the multihull selected for the Olympics, is not really good for multihull as a whole? Even if we don’t get a say in the equipment selection, there are some things we could do, if we want to.

In government or big corporations the people who need something don’t usually get a big say in the selection. However if you can write the rules on what the selected provider has to do to get paid, you can usually get what you need. In Olympic Sailing, paid is being selected to go to the Olympics. Each country can make their own rules for selection and the Class Association for the Olympic boat can make rules too.

For example, if the Tiger were selected. You don’t want the F18 Fleet destroyed , so you quickly pass a rule that says Olympic points are from F18, Regional, National, and World Championships’ as administered by F18 plus Olympic Class Regattas . The F18’s pass a rule that’s says since the Olympic multihull is special , it can only acquire Olympic points sailed box stock(sails, blocks, rudders, etc) as delivered from the factory say Jan 1 2011, lock it in like a Laser. Olympic sailors on other F18’s sail under normal F18 rules for points. Olympic sailors want those points, a box stock Tiger will be at a disadvantage, in a f18 regatta It’s not perfect and it’s not fair to everyone but the F18’s might be able to survive carrying the monster that the Olympic Multihull will become.

Another example would be, we all want share the Olympic innovations. Give points to Olympic sailors in their local Regional, and National Championships’ in selected other classes. Depending on how you weight the points, the effect could range from letting others classes see what the Olympic Sailors are doing, to giving top sailors in other classes a chance. One thing I would suggest in the US is making the Alter Cup and it’s qualifiers count toward selection.

There is only one Olympic multihull; it will have a huge impact on multihulls in the future. Since the selection of the Tornado, multihulls have moved forward. Compare this to the Laser, it has pretty much just sat still but, on the plus side, the short life of a Laser in the top ranks has produced a lot of good starter boats.

The equipment section is just the start, next negeoiate for rules.

Carl,

I think your question is very appropriate.

I would add yours to Paul Pasco's and add a few more impt questions.

Paul asked
Do we need a familiar popular boat that the rest of the world joins us in sailing... or do we hope the world will have the same passion for a new hot design cat and join us and compete in this new class?

In the past, the Tornado drove the progress we saw in the other cat classes. Will that be the case for Mixed multihull moving forward? Will the AC competition drive innovation? Will it be the commercial builders innovating?.

Will the Olympic competition of mixed multi's inspire the young sailors of the world... or will the AC cup draw everyone's attention?

In your for instances... I would step up a level.. It seems that you forsee an interrelated mission of Olympic Sailing and Class Sailing.
The USA experience with a small class is that the Olympic athletes call the shots, All class decisions must work for their campaigns or they won't participate. Just like everyone, they have time and money constraints and the ISAF circuit and training camps set the schedule.

So, I would frame it as;, Does the new Olympic class share a mission with the class of non Olympic sailors?

So far we have made two decisions. 1) It is essential to get back into the Olympics.... CHECK.

2) Any format that accomplishes goal 1 is OK... So, we have MIXED MULTIHULL.

Now it gets interesting!... Having caught the passing car.... the cat is now faced with what to do with it and for what end.

Really? Development progress? What other progress do you possibly mean?

I thought the spinnaker addition to the Torndado came along after the F18's and Inter 20's already had it? And for new 'development' I look to the A cats...

The Tornado rules are pretty tight, which doesn't allow a whole lot of development, right?

I think we went over this before...and I also don't agree that the Tornado trickled down much development to standard beach cats beyond, perhaps, some rigging tricks and some sail shape (perhaps). They were late to adopt spinnakers and have an outdated dagger board configuration.

Thanks Kris. Had the same reaction, just didn't have the time then to post.

ISAF/IOC should consider taking a page out of the US Sailing multihull championships, the Alter Cup, a round robin series on supplied boats. If the selected boat is part of a formula class, ISAF should allow the boat to be actively updated within the class. Just like the Olympics’ venue is different every time through a competition, the selected boat should be identified for every Olympics through a selection process. Ideally, the select boat would be a performance boat that is commonly raced by both club and "pro" racers, and price is a function in the selection process.

Let's take it one step further (putting on the flame suit). The ISAF identifies a formula class from which the boat will be selected and each Olympic trials would be the country's nationals for that formula class. If successful, this will set the ground work to expand the number of multihull events. Hypothetically, we could ultimately end up with the following:

Men's - F18
Women's - F16
Youth - F16 or Hobie 16 w/chute (I know its not a formula class and the chute is undesirable to the adult Hobies)
Single - F16 or A-Cat (A-Cats may have to adopt some development limitations for National competitions which may not sit well within the class).

Mixed - ? TBA: The rap that the F16 would encourage light weight teams to the point of encouraging unhealthy diet practices should send a signal to adopt minimum crew member BMI requirements in combination with minimum crew weights (weight can be added so not to discriminate against smaller people) if selected.

It could work. It preserves formula class development with multiple manufacturers. It gives the club racers satisfaction of being able to affordably race in an Olympic class. It removes the equipment variable. Yes, many items would have to be ironed out but that is beyond the scope of this post. It does potentially threaten the market for formula classes and non-formula boats that are not identified as Olympic classes.

Yes boat development, (Sail shape,) Zucolli built the custom mains for many Olympic programs on their dime and turned that knowledge into F18 sails. Technique... Wild thing for down wind sailing (mitch booth innovated this one). Rigging, snuffers of today come about because the T class sailors tried everything to get an edge.... Otherwise... you could still have end pole snuffers....

The point is... the T class rules were loose enough (by design) and the drive to win promoted innovation using all of the Olympic funding dollars. These guys spent the money first. Many cat classes adopted these innovations after they were proven.

There was a cost to this as well.. You could turn all of this activity around and claim it was cheating or crossing the line (mast issues, Sail material issues, upwind spin sail for China Olympics). It was an instructive period for ISAF. The T class was locking down many of the rules for years and generating lots of upset in the class as it happened but they really locked the rules down to eliminate all of this activity after they were booted.

What will the next Olympic Class do.... It is unlikely to take the same path as the Tornado.... But, If you lock up the Olympic Class into a strict one design... you stop all of this tweaking activity.

Is this a good thing for Cat Racing or not? You Nacra 20 sailors locked down your mainsail with the SMOD... Good move or not? Lasers do not innovate with their sail.... Good for the sport or not.

I assert that in the past, the Olympic multihull led. In the future, the Olympic Multihull looks like it will reflect a point in time of development and be frozen by the rules. The boat will be a boring non issue (unless it falls apart)... The class interest will depend only on the competition and the medal every 4 years.

If Mixed Olympic Multihulls becomes a narrow competition practiced by 20 countries with a couple of teams each trying for 18 slots with sailors on small SMOD boats... will we pay attention?.... My worry is that people will loose interest in the Olympic Multihull Competition with Mixed and with No development allowed.

For Example.... How many people pay attention to the Pan AM games... Why? Is it a big deal for US Hobie 16 sailors... Hell... I remember a couple of Rehobath SC weekend regattas where the H16 winner was the Pan Am rep. It did not seem that big of a deal to me.

Paul Pascoe is absolutely correct... We have some very important choices to make and we should be clear on the potential impact. What should be the pinnacle of the sport...
could slip into irrelevance if we screw this up.

Thank You Mark, you brought up some points and made me do some thinking. Plus sailing a race in heavy turbulent air last night against mixed crews and talking with some made me rethink a couple of things. I now believe that a mixed crew Olympic Class is going to end up being separate class.

Mark,

Whether YOU like it or not, the Olympics isn't SUPPOSED to be about the EQUIPMENT, but the athletes. If that's boring to you, don't watch. SMOD would be the best option because it is the best way to achieve that goal.

Your point about the Pan Am Games is a red herring. As far as I can tell, no one watches ANY of the Pan Am sports, it's not just a sailing problem.

And for at least the last 14 years that I know of, the selection event is held at the NORTH AMERICANS, not just a "weekend regatta." And yes, the Hobie 16 NAs have been hosted by the good folks of Fleet 106 at RBSA in Dewey Beach, actually twice in the last 14 years.

Try to keep up...

Mike

Mike,

Well some think of sailing as the happy marriage of equipment and sailing. The history of the olympics is that both ideas were respected. (Stars and Tornados recently) Everyone else screens the factory production lines for the boat or mast they need.

Everyone has an opinion on this matter. and this is the question... What will the next multihull class look like? Will it be good for catamaran sailing?

Nobody watches olympic sailing either.... That's not my point...

I am asking about the interest in a major international competition, the Pan Am games... and how much interest is there in the event. Both to compete in the event and to watch it. What lessons can you learn from this competition that inform the new mixed multihull class. Now is the time to share the wisdom!

I am keeping up...Is the Pan Am games a big deal for Hobie 16 Sailors?
This model fits more of what ISAF and the IOC are asking for and we should take a good look at it. ... (I think it is men only though)

Fact of the matter... I seem to remember that the EQUIPMENT was a huge issue at the last event.... The leader was DSQ for cheating with a not legal mast. Also some noise about wider then legal boats. Provided boats as well. Probably why I remembered the event (grin)

Oops. ISAF was not pleased. Equipment is always a factor.

If the IOC put a premium on world wide participation in mixed multihull on a SMOD type boat ... the Hobie 16 is the only solution. Share the wisdom!

(Good to know that my memory was correct that Rehoboth weekend served as a qualifier.... not too old yet... yes it was years ago at Rehoboth.)

The lack of interest in the PanAms is indicative of the lack of interest in competitive sailing in general here in the US. For Latin American countries, it's a big deal.

The fact that the sailing population, and specifically the cat sailing community, can't rally behind our PanAm Reps with more vigor, really tells the tail of how fractured the (cat) sailing community is. Here in The States at least.

The Pan Ams are a big deal to those at the top of the H16 circuit (those who would actually have a shot to go).

We also do take interest in ISAF Youth worlds on cats, etc. so it's not totally hopeless.

I don't see how anyone could be thrown out for cheating with a provided-boat event (at least, not for illegal masts, extra-wide boats, etc.). Totally losing me here.

Mike

is javelin, shot put, or hammer throw big outside the US?

Is that technology driven or athlete driven?

Are those spectator sports?

How do they survive?

EXACTLY.... and it was these countries that were decisive in the vote to drop keel boats (unaffordable and no chance to compete in ) and replace with a new boat... women's skiffs.... and Mixed multihull.

As Paul asked.... why was the Tornado not adopted world wide.... Why is the F18 not adopted world wide. Why is the Hobie 16 very important in the Pan Am games?.... Why do they keep lasers and 470s in the game if we need brilliant sailing machines. We need to really understand this message... The Elliot 6's are gone BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN USED in a games.. (now that has to be a record) The Brazilians took delivery of two boats on they day they were killed... don't think they won't kill of the new multi just as quickly...

These countries are going to want a cheap accessible multihull... The simple Hobie 16... matches up to what the countries are voting for now ... And they have a very successful international competition in this class now.

My point is... in reading the ISAF tea leaves and the voting of all of those little countries. The Laser model (popular) looks like the winner over an elite, high tech cat of any size.

How you make this pay off for the good of the sport is an even tougher question.

(Mike, I don't remember all of the details and it is depressing to look up those old reports but things were a bit funny with the provided boats.... All pigs were not equal as it were. It was not a good period for multis. Institutional control is critical for this game.... we don't have a great
track record of late.

What I'm saying is...Yes, it's a big deal, why not get behind it, no matter what you sail. Inter 20, F16, it doesn't matter, get behind the team as a unified force.

My other point is...What's the big deal in Multihull sailing in the US? Not much really, relatively speaking. F18s? A class? H16? The classes aren't really growing like wildfire. In the past 2 years, I've seen regattas take a downward turn here on the West Coast. And what happened to the A class on the West Coast? In NorCal we had 14 boats, now there's 1.

The fracturing that I'm talking about is that everyone is stuck in their own little corner of the sport, which makes it difficult for, say, the F18 guys to get behind an event raced on 16s, like the PanAms.

Here's the PanAms, the event has a ton of support from all over the Americas, and we can't even be bothered to cheer on our team? Talk about missing out on an opportunity to unify the cat sailing community in the US!

There should be a lot more positive hoopla surrounding our team. Why isn't there?

Of course, I'm using the PanAms as an example to show the lackluster support for a much larger event, The Olympics.

If we can't even support the PanAm team, how the heck are we going to support our Olympic reps?

Which is why this thread is titled.

What if the Olympic Mutlihull is not good for Multihulls.

You point out issues that should be addressed as we go through the process. When the game divides and your Olympic sailors live in a small little world disconnected from the rank and file sailors... Does it work?

1) how do they get financial support.
2) How do juniors or young sailors get into the game.

The hardware problem is relatively easy.. Just figure out what ISAF and IOC really want. building a class culture and connecting this class to the rest of the cat sailors and then the Yacht clubs and then to fans... Priceless.

The last PanAm event did not have provided boats. Neither will the next.

2007 Pan Am Games in Brazil. Home team had some questionably class legal mods to their boat (old style mast head on Comptip, corner castings moved out on crossbars and re-riveted to increase beam). Talk to Bob M. - he was there and filed the protest that eventually had the Brazilians tossed out - they would have won the event. Boos and trash thrown at competitors and officials at the prize-giving ceremony.

It's the reason we have the "maximum sail hoist diagrams" in the Hobie Class Rules now.

Mark, still I'm having trouble figuring out how it could be Bad for Multihulls.

Any Multihull exposure is good exposure, right? The trick is to pick the right boat. I think the problem with the Tornado was the initial cost and it was too wide to easily trailer to local events, also a pita to ship overseas. The only guys willing to put up with it were Olympic Wannabees, not club racers.

Maybe we should talk to the Laser guys and see if class membership has increased or decreased since it was chosen as an Olympic boat. I think the 470 would be dead and burried by now if not for Olympic status.

Cost and complexity is what just killed the Star, so let's not go down that road. Keep it simple and cheap, like the Laser and 470, and more Juniors can get into the game.

I totally remember that situation (and am aware that it was the catalyst for the rule change).

In my mind, that was more of a "chartered boat" format, since the boats were used and not rotated. Sounds like this guy got to pick/bring his own boat and keep it for the whole event. At all of the "provided boat" events that I've been associated with, the boats are ALWAYS selected/assigned by lottery, and usually rotated during the event.

Anyone know who the officials were? While trash-throwing is extremely weak on the part of the fans, I would say this looks bad on a resume. They should have rotated the boats, at least then the jury could have done something better to fix the problem (such as throw out all results for that boat, or something).

Of course, starting with ensuring all of the boats were equal prior to the start would have been the logical first step (although they may have tried and missed these somewhat subtle changes). As this event clearly shows, there are unique issues with using USED provided boats, and even more reason to rotate.

Mike

Let me answer that.

If an active F16 were selected, I think it would kill the Class. All the money would go the Olympic boat. All the hot sailors would move to the Olympic boat, with mixed teams. Since the F16 Class is small, I think the selected boat would move to one design events and the F16 Class would end up being largely ignored, Like the B-Class. Loss of our most promising new class is a high price.

If an active F18 were selected, it’s harder to tell, F18 is different. It’s big and F18’s strengths are being able to feed new sailors, practice and tune-up at big events with lots of hot competition. The problem is they would have separate powerful class inside F18. The Olympic boat has mixed crews and it will probably be locked into a ridged no development one design. The Olympic Class boat will fall behind and the mixed crew will probably not be representative of the regular sailors so there may be pressure to change the F18 rules. Olympic sailors and wannabes could end up as a large percentage of the active voting members. I bring this up because I think the Tiger has been positioned to be a candidate. I think the F18 Fleet could end up being damaged and we can't afford having our strongest class damaged just to have a boat in the Olympics .

What do I think the best choice would be:

A modified Tornado, with strict rules concerning platform, standing rigging, mast, and spin pole. Allow development in running rigging and foils. Sails for the Olympics would be from a single supplier, delivered to the Olympics. It's already lost to us. I speak as owner of Tornado US782. It can work for mixed crew as a one design. One of my favorite memories was a course with a reach. The F18’s were in front at A mark, double trapped and traveled out to the footstrap to hold it down. . Me with just a girl on the wire going , shall we pass to windward or leeward? And forget the A-C course, if you are going to sail cats, bring back the reach and put the reach leg were the spectators can see it.

H16- it fits the mixed crew and would fit in with the other Olympic boats. Sail and ABC course and pitch poles would add spectator interest.

New design for mixed crew and I think Vanguard with 3 boats in the Olympics, has an edge here

Put yourself in the place of a new club level buyer... No expectation of ever going to an Olympic regatta...

Hmm... The Olympics picked this particular F16... must be the best one.

Hmm... the resale value will be the highest... because it is the Olympic boat and everyone has heard of it.

Selecting a One Design Class who wants to be Olympic is one thing... Selecting a OD class out of a Formula construct is quite another.

After reading this I'm starting to lean towards a 20 footer, perhaps a Tornado as described by carlbohannon or an N20, or something. Let the 16 and 18's be the devlopment fleets (i.e add to what they have now), F16s could be the official junior boat, F18s a good boat to have to get into big fleets, the "Olympic 20" as the final goal.

Should be interesting, but yeah, I worry, as a lot have, that choosing an instance of the F18 class could harm and not help the fleet.

Should I yell? The boats at the PanAms referenced, and for the next PanAms, are not provided. It is a BYOB event.

Thanks John, that actually makes a LOT more sense. And, it sounds like the officials and competitors did the right thing, a protest was initiated by the competitors.

Too bad the same can't be said for the fans. Unless, throwing garbage is accepted behavior for adults in that culture...

Mike

I was going to respond to this thread with some of these things. I was involved with the class from the late seventies through the new rig change in 2003/04. The top sailors in the class were the ones bringing development into the class with some of the top builders. This was one driven and innovative class considering the constraints of being a OD-DC.

As to what is good for multihulls versus the Olympics. It seems that multihull racing is doing a pretty good job of driving development with the A-Class and F-18 class leading the way. I think that this is separate from the Olympic guidelines which for sailing want strict one-design racing. It is kind of funny though that this was one of the complaints about the Tornado, the rules were not tight enough. If you have been around the Star, Finn and 470 class you will find these rules are equally as loose. My bottom line thought is that I do not think that the Olympics should or will have much impact on Multihull racing in general. If the Tiger is chosen for the Olympics it will give a new use to a boat that is no longer competitve on a national or worldwide level. It is probably competitive on a local level. This would help out Hobie, but would have no real affect on the F-18 class as a whole. Maybe there should be trials as was done when the Tornado was chosen for 76 in effect using guidelines similar to the B-class but smaller. This could produce a new boat with up to date building and design processes. This would negate the battle over whether it should be an F-18, F-16, B-Class or Hobie 16. A new boat, a new class for the Olympics.

With that stated I still think and have since its removal, that the Tornado is the proper class for 2016.

What John wrote is correct.
Two opinions:
If the H16 is chosen there will be more countries willing to participate than if any other class is chosen. Even Paraguay would give it a try. Interestingly, this could be a reason NOT to choose the H16, for more countries translate into higher costs.

I'd like to see a winged F16 one design at the 2016 games, especially if they sell the boats afterwards... you know, I sold the beauty in the avatar...

What about the C cats? They've already got years of development in the wing sails, and I'm sure they would like to get some Chicks on board!

Wait...combine women's beach volly ball with Mixed Multihull! There's a spectator sport for you!

Wait...I've got it, Feed Mayonnaise to Tuna Fish!

(Name that movie)