Olympic Catamaran

These are happy times for catamaran fans but the re-introduction of a catamaran into the Olympic games is just the start. There are two other critical ingredients to making an Olympic catamaran a success.
1) Asspiring catamaran Olympians.
2) People who are willing to write checks when those asspiring Olympians come hat-in-hand.
Now is the time for everyone to encourage young people to take up the challenge and, just as importantly, to suport them when they do.

Unfortunately I think having a mixed multihull event is a joke for the Olympics so can't really get excited about even following it at this point.

My suggestion:

Pick a stock catamaran. As part of Olympic Catamaran race class rules, everyone is weighed, and the competition fleet then all handicapped up to the maximum team weight, or set arbitrary upper (healthy human being) limit. Modify the "Olympic" boat to carry the weight as a handicap.

What say ye all to that idea?

what weight would you use? many 'mericans are heavy. Many easterners are not.

Would you pick a global average weight/height?

How do they do it in other sports like rowing?

Should we have weight classes like wrestling/boxing with corresponding boats for each class (not now, but in the distant future)?

What I was thinking would be based on the upper limit of the actual competitive field, up to say, some average arbitrary weight. This arbitrary weight would be subject to the National Class description (the MNA) for the geographical group, but would be revised to reflect the field for international events. That said, I understand what you are saying in that a team from Malaysia might have to carry 100 lbs if sailing against a Western team. Not impossible, but definitely an equalizer for potentially unhealthy weight behaviors, or skewed crew selections.

It's only an idea, but given the competiveness of the lighter crews in light conditions, such handicapping would attract and help to maintain interest of both younger and older participants, and mixed teams to the the sanctioned events. The local rules could conceivably be fudged to allow substitutions of crews of different weights to maximize participation on weekend 'fun' events while maintaining the weight parity.

Weight 'classes' is a non-starter for sailing, I'd say.

I think your weight minimums are going to self regulate themselves to an extent. It's generally agreed that the mixed teams will have the girl driving and the guy pulling the strings. Is an 80 lb weenie going to be able to withstand the physical demands of the front of the boat? If this is not the case, then the argument for the girl to drive and the guy to pull strings does not hold water. Sure the crews will be small, but I doubt you'll see anything rediculous (that can be comptetitive).

don't bet on it...
Well... for China... they forcast light wind.... Bundy (AUS) wanted a class rule change for the Tornado of setting a minimum crew weight because the ISAF dropped the wind minimum from the class rule.. 5 knots true min. (class has no min weight now to match up with the wind speed minimum.)

Why.... they worried that a midget and a sailor would win the match. Class voted it down ... they were tired of being wipsawed by ISAF .... instead...the drama was over the three teams with the funky spin... (yet another black eye for multi sailing)

Granted, I'm a very fit person, but I just don't find sail trimming around cans anywhere near as physically demanding people here seem to make it out to be. Weight on the other hand, is a big factor in both results and participation/maintaining interest.

As for 'ridiculous', I think there is potential for that happening, and if it does, IOC will backlash.. but it may be solvable, and therefore, maybe nipping that problem in the bud would be a good thing...

Weight is a huge factor...

The big selling point of the 49ner was the wings were adjusted to the crew weight. A built in normalization system. It failed.. the wings were extended to the max and the class competition ousted the sailors who did not fit. The carbon mast was added years later to extend the weight range in breeze and make it more equal.

but... these are pricey pricey changes... 49ner acceptance world wide is no better then F18's...(who tried weight normalization with different sail sizes.

Not an easy solution around though.

There is more to it than the boat. I was thinking we could talk about some of the other challenges in this thread.

Exsqueeze me, but the thread title you chose was;

"Olympic Catamaran"

Suggest your ideas on specificity regarding the 'challenges' are required if you want the thread to go a certain way!

F that noise. It about pushing the limits in all respects. If they want to weigh 65lbs at 5'-9" then let em' same if they want to weight 350lbs at 4'-5"

Somebody else in another thread mentioned it not being about the equipment. Also a load of crap. Any of the events that require anything other than a laurel reath on their heads, the equipment comes into play in a major way.

That was me. I prefer to look at these things in a purist sense. Level the playing field in terms of equipment, and let the best athlete win.

I know, it's not realistic, and not even true for the Olympics. That is why I have a hard time seeing sailing, bobsledding, or any other sport where you're riding a machine as a "real sport" at least for the Olympics.

Don't bother flaming, I know not many people share this view and I'm OK with that...

Mike

When the Laser was fist chosen I thought, "You have got to be Sh!tt!ng ME! It's too slow, it's too simple, What The Fark are they thinking??!!"

But the more I thought about it, I realized with a Laser, you cannot go out and -buy- speed, you have to earn it, with millions of sit-ups . Being that all Lasers go about the same max speed upwind, you have to have excellent tactics and strategy, or you will be in the back row pretty quickly, with no way to recover.

There is boat handling skill involved too, obviously. Keeping it right side up going downwind and getting that thing to move upwind in big wind and waves is an art and not for the un-fit. But being as simple as it is, it does level the playing field equipment wise and put the onus on the skipper/athlete to win the races.

The only widely used catamaran that shares the same -simpleness- as the Laser, is the Hobie 16. I can see where the boat selection committee might choose that.

You and I might want to see the latest, greatest, full wing sail, curved daggers, 20 foot, carbon fiber rocket ship, but really, how many teams, world wide, can play at that level?

But a Mixed Multi? Well, the Hobie 16's have been doing that for years.

Looking at this from the other direction for a moment...

Bobsleds are box-rule if I'm not mistaken. In the last Winter Games, there was a great deal of discussion about NASCAR (or Formula One?) designers being called up to design and build them.

Other than the fact that sailing is on the verge of being booted for other reasons, why couldn't ISAF push back at IOC and ask for a silimar approach for one of the sailing medals (cats, for example)?

Mike

Dropping the keel-boats suggests IOC assertiveness. So, what is to be 'recommended' for the catamaran, will involve the manufacturers, for whom managing and sustaining growth any popular class is very much in their self-interest. FWIW, the success of the Laser shows that designation of an 'Olympic class boat' is not always a death-knell for the class-it just requires appropriate management.

As 'equipment advantages' is strongly discouraged by the IOC, the boat which is ultimately chosen may be expected to have lots of restrictions on the design.

I say Pick one boat, one mfr, and sail it more or less 'as stock', for the Olympics.

IMO, the ISAF is the same as it always was. They voted a slate that increased their chances for medals and inclusion. They took the opportunity to eliminate keel boats in which they struggled to compete ... and replaced them with woman's skiff which is at least a blank slate and cheaper then a keel boat ... and with mixed multihull, another wide open field that could be cheap. I think they feel they have a better shot of catching lighting in a bottle and coming up with a strong sailor in skiffs or multihulls then fighting against the strong established countries in keel boats. ERGO... dump the keels anything else will be better. They voted their best interest.

The IOC "mandate" is a fig leaf that these countries get to hide behind. The Exec Committee who should know EXACTLY what IOC will and will not accept proposed a slate with the Keel boats. The little countries saw an opportunity to leverage the historic participation of the 470s who were to be downsized to the dreaded MIXED and and took it....Moreover, they only have to swallow ONE Mixed bastard event in Multi's and who cares about this fleet... they are desperate to return and will take anything ... Oh!.. final point, and if you don't think the other South American Countries saw an opportunity to stick it to Brazil (very strong in keel boats)... You haven't talked to many Argentines about football and Brazil... and vice versa.

This whole myth about making things fair by having a 1 design boat is so tired and bogus.
If you step back and use common sense it becomes evident that the minute you set in stone the boat/rig you predispose the advantage to a particular weight/height/strength individual….if you fall outside these “ideal parameters” one is at an instant disadvantage…assuming sailing skill is equal. So where is the fairness in that? Too bad, so sad you say while at the same time claiming fairness out of the other side of your mouth.
The reality of the matter is that if a formula class was chosen, and each sailor could pick his/her boat/rig optimized for crew weight/height/strength, the playing field would be much more even than any one design.
Trying to make “equipment” not a factor is a physical impossibility…you can be politically correct till the cows come home… but the fact that you say something is so, doesn’t change the laws of physics. Let’s be honest with ourselves here…If you are 6’-2” and 200 lbs. you want the chosen boat optimized to your advantage…if you are 165 you want a different boat/rig….every time you change the crews physical make up the advantage goes in a different direction…and everyone involved is fighting to get that direction to favor them. Let’s call a spade a spade….”fairness” has nothing at all to do with it…it’s all a scam to get a leg up.
Do runners only have the choice of one size shoe regardless of how big their feet are? Sorry you really wear a size 9 but in order to compete you have to wear a size 12…how ridiculous is that?

What I am still trying to figure out is, why are there TWO single-handed dinghys, the Laser and the Finn, and TWO double (and not mixed gender) dinghys, the 470 and the 49'r, yet no keel boats and only one cat?

Why not add a single handed cat (an A cat) along with the two up, mixed cat?

that's what I'm saying...it still doesn't make sense.

Absolutely. This is a sensitive issue.
Argentina has a history of voting against Brazil for irrational reasons. What else could you expect from people who actually believe that Maradona, a known cheater and drug addict, is greater than Pele, the most famous name in sports?

Anyway, ISAF placed the two countries in separate groups for this reason. The American continent has four groups:

Group M: Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Equador and Peru
Group N: Brazil and Paraguay
Group O: Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico and lots of smaller countries in Central America and the Caribean.
Group P: US and Canada

Take care,

Im pretty sure the biggest challenge for anyone who wants to get on the US Olympic team sailing cats is beating you, Rhody!! Seriously though, finding enough time to be on the water and racing a lot is a start. That means money which means sponsors, which seems to be harder here in the US than in other places where sailing in more ingrained (EU, AUS, NZ) in their cultures. How does anyone else here manage to finagle sponsorship on any real basis? I know a few guys who get hardware (Ronstan, Harken etc) sponsors, but its really only for a small equipment budget. Im sure if you went to them and told them you needed a new boat, they would be laughing for the rest of the day. It seems tough even for guys like Mischa, who jumped off Hobie for Cirrus, as Hobie wasent willing to cough up some real loot to keep a top guy on their brand. I dont think that was a great move and we shall see how many times he puts the Cirrus on a podium over a WildCat...Anyway Im still just trying to figure out how to get someone else to buy me a new mainsail...better get back to begging!!

Minutes from the meeting where all this was decided....

No.... I don't think your joke is accurate. It was not irrational.

For all of the noise that the powers that be screwed the Multihulls and sailing in general… Consider this slate.

Executive Committee/ Puerto Rican submission

Men’s sail board or kite board – Evaluation
Women’s sail board or kite board – Evaluation
Men’s one person dinghy – Laser
Women’s one person dinghy – Laser Radial
Men’s 2nd one person dinghy – Finn
Men’s two person dinghy (spinnaker) – 470
Women’s two person dinghy (spinnaker) – 470
Women’s keelboat Match Racing – Elliott 6m
Men’s keelboat – Star
Mixed multihull – Evaluation

So basically the Exec committee wanted to replace Skiffs with Keel boats. They argued for continuity in the games and the rock stars of the sport are in keel boats. The high performance niche would now be held up by the Mixed Multihull which feeds into the big AC spectacle.

IMO this would have elevated the Mixed Multihull as the High performance Star of the Olympics and Made more sense to me as consistent with the 5 disciplines then what we now have)

Instead… ISAF rejected this proposal and selected a slate with THREE high performance boats to include
Mixed Multihull Evaluation
Men’s Skiff 49ner
Women’s Skiff Evaluation

My point that ISAF voted their best interest was made by Jim Champ from Andy Rice’s Blog
He summarized what each nation wanted in their submissions.

37 suggested some sort of board, both exceptions being in the NA region
39 suggested M & F Lasers
32 suggested M & F 470s, and just 4 mixed 470s
34 suggested the Finn
35 suggested a mixed multihull
37 suggested the 49er
32 suggested the women's skiff

His point… they voted their self interest. Keel boats only got 10 votes. (too expensive… too elite)
The third most expensive boat in the Olympic quiver… the Tornado was killed off the last time… (Too expensive… too elite)

My read... the High Performance niche won out over the Keel boat niche because the ISAF countries voted thinking they have a shot at competing where before... they had no shot.

The good of the sport notion is in the eye of the beholder.... Hell.. many don't think the AC on multihulls is good for the sport. So... if you can't agree on the basics... you vote your self interest.

Regardless, props to anyone who can sit in these types of meetings.

I've been in quite a few (not sailing related) and I felt like the guy who's head pops off...

People are smart. Committees are stupid. Ask any camel (which is really a horse that was designed by committee)

Chill out Luiz...
This is Catsailor.