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F18 Worlds

Posted By: TEAMVMG

F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 12:41 PM

The worlds have started and after 4 races, there is a nice mix of boats at the front of the fleet;

http://2011.f18worlds.com/

A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
The worlds have started and after 4 races, there is a nice mix of boats at the front of the fleet;

http://2011.f18worlds.com/

A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc


35 knots... that is a little sporty.

I really don't see how the International Class Assoc. could say anything regarding who is in attendance or not and if they did it would be a converstaion I would look forward to.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 02:20 PM

Got popcorn everyone?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 02:57 PM

Pete, what is it that you think you see here?

Paul made a comment I don't particularly agree with, no big deal it happens. Personally I don't think the International Class would say anything and I believe they fully understand the issues with getting to Worlds. If they did have something to say I certianly would want to be included in the converation.

Sorry to disappoint.
Posted By: Jake

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Got popcorn everyone?


Why? It was in Hungary...which is very inland Europe and hard to get to from anywhere outside of Europe. There are several Austrailian teams present - the usual rock stars...but there are several Aussy teams that are usually at the worlds that aren't there too. Logistically, it is just a difficult place to get to for anyone outside of Europe not to mention that the event is being held on an inland lake where the weather conditions are less consistent than would be at a coastal venue.

Roughly scanning the countries, it appears 95% of the teams are from Europe and that only 7 are from outside of Europe. 15 are from Hungary itself. I wouldn't say that no US or Canada, or Mexico (Brazil, etc.) participation is that surprising.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 03:02 PM

"...it would be a converstaion I would look forward to."

I was looking forward to it.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 03:15 PM

Again, sorry to disappoint.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 04:40 PM

I'm at the worlds at the moment and with only a 100 boats, participation really is quite low.
I think one of the reasons the number of entries is down is the reputation of lake Balaton as a low wind location with the typical lake winds.
Although I dont know how on earth you could fit 200 cats here anyway, there is barely enough room for a 100!
Another reason is the distance, its a 1400km drive which is a lot for european standards but its not too bad as the roads are really good.
IMO the Argentinian team did the smart thing by renting a Nacra in Holland for a few week, they did the Nacra Worlds, Round Texel, and now the F18 Worlds.

Winds were very shifty today, spent 5h on the water but every race was abandoned due to huge shifts and differences in pressure.
In one race you could do the upwind tack with the kite up!

Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 06:24 PM

OK, I'm with Ding on this, where exactly is the issue? Why is ISAF going to be ticked, Paul?

This is an International Class hosting a World Championship. A quick view of the results of this particular World Championship regatta shows participation of over 100 boats, representing at least 4 continents, and a bunch of countries.

ISAF Reg 25.2.1(b) is easily being met.

I've been to a Worlds regatta with 21 keelboats. There are lots of classes out there that would kill to have 100 boats at Worlds, let alone "down from 200."

Incidentally, that wind map scares me (with all the twists and shifts and shafts of wind)!

Mike
Posted By: Jalani

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 06:58 PM

How are the Balaton mosquitos Tony, have you all been feeding them?
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
OK, I'm with Ding on this, where exactly is the issue? Why is ISAF going to be ticked, Paul?

This is an International Class hosting a World Championship. A quick view of the results of this particular World Championship regatta shows participation of over 100 boats, representing at least 4 continents, and a bunch of countries.

ISAF Reg 25.2.1(b) is easily being met.

I've been to a Worlds regatta with 21 keelboats. There are lots of classes out there that would kill to have 100 boats at Worlds, let alone "down from 200."

Incidentally, that wind map scares me (with all the twists and shifts and shafts of wind)!

Mike


why are you bringing ISAF into this?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 07:28 PM

Isn't the job of the international class to manage worlds to grow the class and serve the membership. Aren't they supposed to zap the regions that don't play.

It's the you come to my event... I will come to your event bargain!

Does the f18 promote teams from afar with sponsoring a container from each continent?

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Aren't they supposed to zap the regions that don't play.


Are you saying the nations that don't show should some how be santioned? Is that what your are suggesting?
Posted By: Jake

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Isn't the job of the international class to manage worlds to grow the class and serve the membership. Aren't they supposed to zap the regions that don't play.

It's the you come to my event... I will come to your event bargain!

Does the f18 promote teams from afar with sponsoring a container from each continent?



Pete, you might want to reheat that popcorn.
Posted By: Jake

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Aren't they supposed to zap the regions that don't play.


Are you saying the nations that don't show should some how be santioned? Is that what your are suggesting?


As in, we have too much participation in our sport and need to find new ways to exclude people...yah...right.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 08:19 PM

Who said exclude individual sailors.

The international class could not put the worlds in your neck of the woods any time soon ...

They could reduce the slots your country is allocated on the initial deal. (Occasionally this will be important to you)

If they get sponsor money, they could direct it to regions that have supported worlds by attending in the past.... eg container subsidies.

They can reduce your voting rights or ability to submit proposals.

The basics... of I will come to your event... if you will come to my event hold...even at the world level.

I am not recommending any action... sounded like Paul was talking about a strong phone call or email or two.






Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 08:24 PM

Paul, you still haven't answered why anyone is going to be ticked.

I mentioned ISAF, because since those requirements are being met, nothing is in jeopardy for the class association.

I could see the class association thinking twice about awarding a future Worlds to a country/continent that consistently doesn't support events in other regions, but I don't see that as the case here.

Again, what are we missing?

Mike

EDIT: Mark and I were writing at the same time, he is giving other excellent examples of things that could be done, but I don't necessarily think that this one event warrants any action at this time.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 08:30 PM

smile Was there ever any doubt?
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 08:36 PM

Just click on the link and look at the pretty pictures
Posted By: Jake

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 09:01 PM

Orrrrr...you could look at it in a productive positive, business-like manner (the class assoc. would be much more likely to do). Instead of "sanctioning" a weak part of the world and making it weaker, they're probably more likely to host a worlds there, provide support, incentivate, etc. Do things to make it stronger.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Who said exclude individual sailors.

The international class could not put the worlds in your neck of the woods any time soon ...

They could reduce the slots your country is allocated on the initial deal. (Occasionally this will be important to you)

If they get sponsor money, they could direct it to regions that have supported worlds by attending in the past.... eg container subsidies.

They can reduce your voting rights or ability to submit proposals.

The basics... of I will come to your event... if you will come to my event hold...even at the world level.

I am not recommending any action... sounded like Paul was talking about a strong phone call or email or two.


The International class could do all of those things but will it promote the sport in the countries that receive the strongly worded email or stern phone call? Will that action move the agenda of class forward or will it alienate the up and coming countries from the class?

Sending an email or giving a stern phone call to a bunch of volunteers serves absolutely no purpose. This isn't an employee employer relationship you can't give volunteers ultimatums, the volunteer is always doing you favor and the volunteer holds all the cards and they and they alone will decide if they want to play or not.

Again, I really don't think it would be in the International class’s best interest to give the National classes a dressing down for not participating this year. Mark don't you think it would be a much better approach to send and email or make a phone call simply asking how the International class could help overcome the obstacles that keep some teams/countries from attending Worlds? The carrot really is the way to go don’t you think? This whole beat em with a stick approach reminds me a lot of another organization I'm involved with.
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 09:35 PM

I am still waiting for the real issue that Paul sees.

Mark gives a list of things that "could" happen, but probably won't.

I mentioned that the ISAF requirements are being met, so the class doesn't have to worry about that.

Realistically, this is not unlike other classes, where EU teams don't come to the US for Worlds, and vice-versa. The economy isn't helping, either.

EDIT: Economy and currency exchange values aside, one (if not THE) root cause of this is the overlapping racing seasons of the US and EU, and pitfalls of a BYOB regatta. In other words, do you really want to be without your boat for the enitre summer while it sits in a container going back and forth across the ocean?

I'm not seeing an emergency, or anything at all to be excited about.

I'm saving my popcorn for a better movie...

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 09:44 PM

I agree.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 10:02 PM

Dave you make some excellent points about volunteers.

The A class had some public grumbling about how the Yanks blew off the Aussi Worlds... I have no idea if the International class echoed this complaint to the US class. The US Class did organize a container to the upcoming worlds in No Europe this time.

Your point about volunteers is well made. The way I see it is that many volunteers are running a huge event like a F18 worlds... So, it is demoralizing that all of the effort to pull off a successful event is ignored by important chunks of the class. You want the message delivered... Hey... we are all in this boat/class together... we busted our butts... and we support your event. So...what about you?

Now... how do you take the sentiment of the class volunteers and turn that in a message directed at the no shows... I choose to call it a reminder of your responsibility. You could also call it a big stick.

I have often wondered if a national class should include a container charge so that the national class could subsidize racers going to worlds. Now the cost may still be too high for the individuals and you don't fill the container or send it. BUT...it is very clear you are supporting the Intl Class agenda with some $$$.
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 10:06 PM

Seriously??? What is demoralizing about a 100 boat regatta??? And, where is the data that shows Euros coming here in droves when we host a Worlds???

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/05/11 11:33 PM

For us... 100 boats is fantastic... those guys were looking at 200.... (assuming Europe is = to their part of Europe).

But, I don't think the number of overseas competitors is the real issue.. Rather it's the representation of the top sailors from overseas participating that matters.

The A class Worlds have been twittering about whether Gasby will be racing or not. Superstars matter! The US class trumpets that two of the top three US Sailors will be racing on US platforms at the upcoming worlds.

The standard pre worlds write up for any class will trumpet the talent and where they come from... broad international support is a big deal!

I would bet that a container each from North and South America would have done the job!

Mike discussed how long your boat is out of action. A winning plan is to ship your boat and then sell it in the region of the worlds. Fly home and get a new boat! If the market and the exchange rate are off... that is a factor.
Dealers who broker this would certainly help the international trade!
Posted By: Luiz

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jake

Roughly scanning the countries... only 7 are from outside of Europe... I wouldn't say that no US or Canada, or Mexico (Brazil, etc.) participation is that surprising.


I am not even sure if there is an F18 class in Brazil. Only saw one custom boat more or less abandoned in the Yacht Club of Rio and one in sailing conditions in Buzios.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Seriously??? What is demoralizing about a 100 boat regatta??? And, where is the data that shows Euros coming here in droves when we host a Worlds???

Mike

You raise an interesting point there, the 2012 worlds are in september which means that euro boats will have to be in containers by august at the latest.
Our season runs until the end of october which means you will miss out on half a season.
This wont be such a problem for the pro teams since they will either ship a 2nd boat or rent one.
IMHO the absolute best time to do a worlds outside europe is between november and march.
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 03:05 PM

It's certainly not a new problem. The Hobie classes have dealt with this for generations. It could be argued that the H16 Worlds are only so successful because the boats are supplied.

Mark would probably say that means that a 100 boat BYOB event shows more support than a 200-boat rotating format on supplied boats. Knowing many of the sailors, I would disagree, but it's an interesting point.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 04:21 PM

Quote
Mark would probably say that means that a 100 boat BYOB event shows more support than a 200-boat rotating format on supplied boats. Knowing many of the sailors, I would disagree, but it's an interesting point.


No... I would not get too caught up in the size of the regatta debate. I go back to my competition/ world wide participation point... When the worlds gets the top 30 sailors in the class from around the world going head to head... I would declare that an overwhelming success whether you include zero other competitors or 170 other competitors.

Now the scale of the parties and the worlds experience could depend on those other boats but that is a separate point.

Here is a somewhat related question.... Is a worlds truly a championship if the past world champions don't compete (and have not retired)?

The stock reply is ... well... you hold the championship and the champion is the winner and world champion.. But we are human.... So...what do you really think?



Posted By: Jake

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Mark would probably say that means that a 100 boat BYOB event shows more support than a 200-boat rotating format on supplied boats. Knowing many of the sailors, I would disagree, but it's an interesting point.


No... I would not get too caught up in the size of the regatta debate. I go back to my competition/ world wide participation point... When the worlds gets the top 30 sailors in the class from around the world going head to head... I would declare that an overwhelming success whether you include zero other competitors or 170 other competitors.

Now the scale of the parties and the worlds experience could depend on those other boats but that is a separate point.

Here is a somewhat related question.... Is a worlds truly a championship if the past world champions don't compete (and have not retired)?

The stock reply is ... well... you hold the championship and the champion is the winner and world champion.. But we are human.... So...what do you really think?





You try to make things so complicated!

You hold a championship. The winner is...~sigh~..."the champion".
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 04:40 PM

+1
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 04:53 PM

Ok, that is the standard answer ... Back to the original post...

Quote

A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc


If that is the case... Why would some one care if a few nations did not post....(It's not about the number of boats is it) This is not the Olympics after all where if your country failed to pay for your rep you could be pissed..

Nope.... IMO, this post is really about the top competition who did not show.

You guys are just whistling past the graveyard....
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
IMHO the absolute best time to do a worlds outside europe is between november and march.


Right in the middle of sailing season in FL. How convenient for Ding. The whole world at his back door looking for a place to sail....

You want funky lake sailing? Host it in Clermont

You want crazy lake sailing? Find a way to put it in Lake Okeechobee. (Bonus points for any sailor who doesn't spot an alligator bigger than their boat)

Coastal Ocean and its associated surf? Anywhere along the east coast

Less violent pseudo-ocean conditions? Pensacola (colder) to Marco Island (warmer)

You want tropical paridise? Port Charlotte (west)to the Keys (south) to Palm Beach (east)

Wind, sea and temperature conditions vary from 80F and 10-12kts with light chop, to a Nor'easter driving 30+kts along with huge surf (east coast) and temperatures that fall to near freezing

Jan-March seems close to "peak" season in Florida, both for sailing and tourism (so prices might be up), but for a 100+ boat fleet, deals can be made.

Containers can be shipped throughout the state. Jax, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa, have container terminals from quick memory. Rail service can get almost everywhere else
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Ok, that is the standard answer ... Back to the original post...

Quote

A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc


Its just a bit embarassing that our National chairmen go to the F18 world council and lobby for extra places at the worlds and then none of the sailors take up those spaces

If that is the case... Why would some one care if a few nations did not post....(It's not about the number of boats is it) This is not the Olympics after all where if your country failed to pay for your rep you could be pissed..

Nope.... IMO, this post is really about the top competition who did not show.

You guys are just whistling past the graveyard....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:07 PM

Quote

Right in the middle of sailing season in FL. How convenient for Ding. The whole world at his back door looking for a place to sail....


Right... that is why the Miami OCR is in late January and follows Key West.

The Euro olympic sailors will package a training camp around the ISAF grade I event and another 3 day event into that 10 day or so period.

What you need is a facility that can handle the containers and base camps of the these teams... including coach boats.

Mixed multihulls coming your way shortly!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:10 PM

I'd think Miami and Sarasota have a good amount of space to handle something of that size.

What kind of acreage would you think is feasable to host 100+ boats, half of which would be from outside USA?
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:12 PM

In some ways, who cares what we "want" to happen, we can't force people to show up.

If you want to know what impresses me, it's not a handful of rockstars coming from Europe, it would be more like a minimum of 10 boats per country. Same in reverse. If a handful of US boats go to a Worlds in Europe, that's not really impressing me as the country's class supporting the event, that's a handful of individuals that chose to go.

Not realistic with overlapping seasons, but that would impress me.

Of course, there's really no point to this part of the discussion. We can make it as enticing as possible, but even if the event were free, with free boats, logistics and airfare included, people would find reasons not to go.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 05:14 PM

a sad +1 on that....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 07:28 PM

Quote
If a handful of US boats go to a Worlds in Europe, that's not really impressing me as the country's class supporting the event, that's a handful of individuals that chose to go.


wow.... I thought I had a high standard for Worlds success.
I don't understand your point of view at all. (say more)

I think of Worlds participation (container required) as rock stars, and full on campaigners plus a few rank and file sailors who are going to Worlds for the experience/vacation in some cool spot in the world. The cost and other issues will keep participation way way down... I would be happy with a single full container from the continent!

I would be impressed by measuring participation when the worlds show up in your part of the world. Getting 80% of your class's regional racers to post would be outstanding. This would measure the hard core support in your neck of the woods.
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/06/11 09:50 PM

Two different concepts.

Successful Worlds, that is currently happening.

Impressive support from all areas: Show me more boats from each region.

80% of an area's active racers is probably extremely unrealistic, but if all the other regions send lots of boats, it's less critical.

Mike
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 12:37 AM

Once again an F18 thread ruined by non-F18 sailors. Why don't you guys have conversations like this via email? It seems it's always between the same people anyways.

I came to this thread to get an updated on the F18 worlds.. not read 3 pages of a silly arguement and I don't think I'm alone here.

Thanks.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 01:33 AM

Yo!... there are 8 English speaking competitors at the regatta and they are not saying much... smile

SO.... the Original Post says..

Quote
A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc


Well... that is what we talk about.... Seems like a reasonable issue about F18 worlds.... (or any worlds in this day and age) eek

Usually, half of the chatter about an f18 event was usually about what platform and mods each of the top sailors are using... because this info was prohibited from being published. This is the first F18 event that I have ever seen where they list the boat type... grin

Top 4 boats are from 4 builders... so not much controversy there! shocked
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 11:30 AM

Our group did two races yesterday in perfect sailing conditions, you really have to watch where you go as there are a lot of patches with no wind.
All of our starts were pretty rubbish so we didnt make the gold fleet frown
Not enough wind today for racing, postponement is still up but I hope they call the whole thing of for today soon (its 13:30 now).
Forecast for tomorrow is 14-17kts so that should be good for the final day.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 01:58 PM

That is lake sailing. Still amazing how the guys at the top can get it sorted out and be surprisingly consistent.
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
Once again an F18 thread ruined by non-F18 sailors.

I came to this thread to get an updated on the F18 worlds.. not read 3 pages of a silly arguement and I don't think I'm alone here.


Hey Todd,

Being a non-F18 sailor, I don’t chime in on the manufacturer debates, etc. But, there were questions about whether this Worlds event was meaningful based on entries, and I don’t think you need to own an F18 to have a valuable opinion.

However, I do agree with your last point, and got annoyed with the Alter Cup thread for similar reasons (did somebody say TANGENT?), so I’ll check out now…

See you Saturday!

Mike
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/07/11 05:41 PM

qualification for gold/silver fleets done;

http://2011.f18worlds.com/attachments/category/58/qualification%20final%20results.pdf

No racing today - no wind I assume
Posted By: brucat

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/08/11 03:45 PM

Twitter update about 40 minutes old:

The races of Groupama Garancia F18 World Championship are over, the final results are on their way after the protests.


Report from the website:

On the last day of the Groupama Garancia F18 World Championship the Lake Balaton says a friendly goodbye with a great wind.

The last races of the championship will be finished in the afternoon. The participants - in golden and silver fleets – finally gained the mercy of the Lake Balaton and they can rule the water again.

It was a nice surprise for Hungary that two Hungarian sailor teams could get in the golden class, the Váradi – Petheö, and the Diószegi – Jankovics duos. The international field was ruled by the world-class Dutch teams, but there were races when our Hungarians could approach the forefront.

“There is a southwestern wind now, and the catamarans are flying! We could not ask for more for the last day. The wind and its direction are stable now. Every ship is on water, and it’s so great to have such a great luck for the last day,” Peter Süle organizer said. The last race will be started at 14:05, and the contestants will certainly take advantage of the opportunity and sail as much as they can.

For the final results we have to wait until late afternoon. The price giving ceremony will be held at 6 pm at the Kisfaludy stage in Balatonfüred. Until then everybody has time to cheer for the teams.


You're welcome, Todd... wink

Mike
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/08/11 09:32 PM

Bundy wins!
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/11/11 12:25 PM

It needs to be said that, after last years poor effort, the coverage of this worlds was great and the tracker worked really well - showing some exciting racing.

Was it just me watching it? not a lot of chatter
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/11/11 03:03 PM

Quote
the tracker worked really well -


I honestly did not know there was a tracker!

There is/was no story line unless the class creates one.... F18's are not my class... I haven't seen one on the race course in my area in 5 years.. But, ... I will happily waste my time reading and cheering ... If you give me something... Otherwise.. it is just mothers and wives paying attention... er... maybe it is just mothers...

This thread had only one thing of interest (to me)... How should a class promote or sanction Countries for worlds. Should a class do this..

Contrast the F18's with the A class....
The A class world thread is preoccupied with Glen Asby... Will he or won't he defend?.. Will the AC stuff muck up his schedule... what other rock stars from the usual cast will try to beat him... will he have enough time on the boat to get back to the top... is he that far ahead of people? Next... it will be ... what platform..... Curved or strait foils.. What mast.... How impt is the equipment versus the sailing skill. From the US perspective... will Guck and Struble be able to play on the world stage after missing a couple of years of racing contact with the euros and the aussis... or did we get shot out the back.... How do us rank an file sailors stack up against the guys who do show at worlds when we see them on a race course in our neck of the woods.

Is any of this important... hell no! Is there any money or national glory to be won... Hell no! But... cat sailor fans will pay a bit of attention to the story and A class sailors a good deal more attention because the individuals I mentioned have history and cred in the cat world that we find interesting.

We only know of these stories because the threads have been developing for years and years...



Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/11/11 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Just click on the link and look at the pretty pictures


[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/11/11 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
the tracker worked really well -


I honestly did not know there was a tracker!

There is/was no story line unless the class creates one.... F18's are not my class... I haven't seen one on the race course in my area in 5 years.. But, ... I will happily waste my time reading and cheering ... If you give me something... Otherwise.. it is just mothers and wives paying attention... er... maybe it is just mothers...

This thread had only one thing of interest (to me)... How should a class promote or sanction Countries for worlds. Should a class do this..

Contrast the F18's with the A class....
The A class world thread is preoccupied with Glen Asby... Will he or won't he defend?.. Will the AC stuff muck up his schedule... what other rock stars from the usual cast will try to beat him... will he have enough time on the boat to get back to the top... is he that far ahead of people? Next... it will be ... what platform..... Curved or strait foils.. What mast.... How impt is the equipment versus the sailing skill. From the US perspective... will Guck and Struble be able to play on the world stage after missing a couple of years of racing contact with the euros and the aussis... or did we get shot out the back.... How do us rank an file sailors stack up against the guys who do show at worlds when we see them on a race course in our neck of the woods.

Is any of this important... hell no! Is there any money or national glory to be won... Hell no! But... cat sailor fans will pay a bit of attention to the story and A class sailors a good deal more attention because the individuals I mentioned have history and cred in the cat world that we find interesting.

We only know of these stories because the threads have been developing for years and years...




I read your post twice and honestly dont have a clue what you are on about! crazy confused
Anyway, had you paid more attention you would have noticed a huge story going on, I will give you a clue: sailcloth.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/11/11 06:00 PM

Quote
Anyway, had you paid more attention you would have noticed a huge story going on, I will give you a clue: sailcloth.


Now there is a tease!!!! tell me more...

I remember the F18 class having tight restrictions on sail cloth....(fall out from the Tornado cuben fiber fiasco) Something new on the approved list??
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 05:07 AM

Something new not on the approved list?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 07:15 AM

Some sails had materials in them which are not on the list:
http://db.tt/Q84gMyV
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 01:32 PM

The spirit of the rule was to sanction and approve materials that controlled costs and kept the sails in a competitive window. Is this a case of a technical violation with the sail cloth just not making the date to be approved or is there a real price and performance difference with the sail cloth?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 01:50 PM

Does it matter? A company such as Sail Innovation is well aware of the class rules, if they are building sails outside the rules they should expect that those sails will be protested.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The spirit of the rule was to sanction and approve materials that controlled costs and kept the sails in a competitive window. Is this a case of a technical violation with the sail cloth just not making the date to be approved or is there a real price and performance difference with the sail cloth?


Okay Mark I'll bite. Why is there even a distinction between what's on the approved list and something where there is no price and performance difference but not on the list? Who makes the call for the products that are not on the list? What's the process? Please don't say it's up to the protest committee to determine if an unapproved material is okay for use.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: F18 Worlds - 07/12/11 02:20 PM

Class rules for international classes have to be written so that they don't just say what isn't allowed, they have to say what IS allowed. With sail material, this is a minefield because new materials and trade names are emerging all the time, so the list will never be up to date.
The clauses about 'spirit of the rule' are ment to overcome this problem
Posted By: Mark Schneider

sail material control - 07/12/11 02:58 PM

The cloth makers are not paying any attention to the F18 class meeting schedule, much less the technical committee. They make and market their new formulations all the time...

The cuben fiber material was superior/faster... but 4x more expensive and lasted a regatta or two. Good enough for a Silver in the 3 ring circus.... (IT was proprietary though and available to only three teams at the time) The T class joined with the F18 class (the much bigger market) to regulate materials after that and cuben fiber was banned.

I could see a small sail maker saying... the new material complies with the spirt of the rule (unlike the cuben fiber)... It will be approved by the F18 technical committee when it is considered. This will be our marketing edge and the F18 worlds are now.... so we will use it. Did the sailors who bought the sails know this ahead of time?... Was one sailor promoting the sails and did know?

Looking at the date deadlines on the paperwork, I assume the technical committee bought the minor variation story and did not DSQ the boats. Hopefully they had a way to sanction the sailmaker.... at least he should have submitted the material to the technical committee before the worlds.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 03:29 PM

+1... damnit!
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 03:40 PM

If sailmakers are going to build sails out of materials not on the approved list, should/could they be required to submit to the class the new material specifications to show that it is not a game changing fabric and is within the spirit of the law. The class can then give conditional approval AHEAD OF TIME for the new fabric to be used until the rules can be officially ammended to allow the new fabric. IMHO, this would eliminate situtions like the one that developed at worlds.
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 03:51 PM

At the risk of continuing yet another tangent (this really needs its own thread now)...

Mark & Ding:

OK, now I'm officially confused. If there is a clear list of what IS approved, and a clear process of how to get on that list; "spirit clauses", etc. shouldn't matter. The boats should have been protested by another competitor or by the RC (via measurer report), and the IJ should have DSQd them.

You're seriously suggesting to take a sailmaker's application and claim of equality to equal an anticipated rubber stamp by an international class?

What happens after the regatta if the class rejects the application? Again, this is an international class with ISAF requirements to be met for making such changes.

This would turn into a nightmare for local regattas, with less-than-IJ quality PCs.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 04:15 PM

You are Right....

This is a Solomon like ruling... not a ruling from the book.

FYI, the class does not want to reject better material.... they want to stop crazy costs or game changing innovation.... They hew to the limited development philosophy.

If you take the limited development principal... what is the point of DSQ'ing some sailors who broke the rule... but next week, after the technical meeting report is approved... they would not have broken the rule?

I don't see this ruling as opening a big can of worms.... but some a hole could view this ruling as an opening to try to push something the next time... I would trust the technical committee to see the BS and cut the idiot off at the knees.

Could the original protestor appeal this ruling to ISAF?... probably... but why move from a legit protest... to being major a hole to make your point.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 04:17 PM

Mike,

Just be clear, I'm against the rubber stamp method and my thoughts are in line with Karl's. My +1 on Mark's post was because he pretty much summed it up for me. It does NOT appear he is advocating a rubber stamp process under the 'sprit of the rule' directive. If anything he too is against any 'rubber stamp' solution because of the Tornado lessons learned.

But I could be completely wrong in my interpretation of Mark's post, it happens from time to time.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 04:30 PM

Damn I did interpret your post incorrectly.

There is no way forgiveness vs. permission is good for the class, this begins to divide the class and give the perception that those in the know (the elite) will have access to materials and goods the rest of us (the peasants) don’t have access to. The rules are there to protect the class and they need to applied equally to all. How the heck would a cert even be valid if the sails material isn’t even on the approved list? Sorry guys… apply/enforce the rules, if the rules are broken fix the rules, we need to quit being lazy and do the right thing.

Besides there is absolutely no need for the class to be on the bleeding edge so what is this great urgency to use materials that aren’t on the approved list?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 04:38 PM

Dave... two points... The Tornado class had no rule on cloth material.... the loophole was exploited... What made it a fairness and competition issue was that the other teams could not purchase the cuben material until after the games. THIS last fact was the issue.

The protest went to the Class technical committee.... I would not call that a rubber stamp. A rubber stamp would have been the OA or the PC making the decision. Now the fine print may give the original protest an avenue to appeal... At best... you will force the class to write lots of rules to manage the clock.... What's the point with respect to the big picture... It does not sound like the sail cloth is out of bounds price wise and other sailmakers could make their own sails with the cloth for sale to other racers.

Quote

Besides there is absolutely no need for the class to be on the bleeding edge so what is this great urgency to use materials that aren’t on the approved list?


Ah.... the guy who bought the sail wants the latest stuff for the event that matters... He will have it for two more years... Buying last year's design / material would burn... (see Nacra 20 sail debate)

I stick with the judgement needed standard!

If the class thought the SOB was cheating and his success was not fairly earned even after the technical committee ruling... they could and should jeer him off the podium.

I like the rules... I respect the judgment needed.
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:05 PM

"If you take the limited development principal... what is the point of DSQ'ing some sailors who broke the rule... but next week, after the technical meeting report is approved... they would not have broken the rule?"

Um, YES the rule that was in effect at the time of the regatta was broken!

Call me conservative, but I really do see a slippery slope.

Sorry, but class technical committee does not equal class (and ISAF) approval.

For very good reasons, our sport is dictated by letter of the law. Spirit is nice, but letter is less likely to wind up being overturned on appeal.

BTW, assuming that there was a properly constituted IJ at this event, their decision would actually not be subject to appeal. That could certainly open a barrel of monkeys for an equipment issue.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:17 PM

So sailor X has a sail made from material not on the approved list because the loft they have chosen considers the approved materials list a guideline rather than a rule. Sailor Y used a different loft that will only build sails from the approved list because... well... they want to build class legal sails and they assume all lofts play by the rules. So not "everybody" has access to the unapproved material for their sails. Those sail makers that play by the rules are punished for doing the right thing and those that skirt the rules are rewarded. Is that really how we want to see the rules enforced?

Again, what is the big urgency to use materials NOT on the approved list? In my opinion it does the class more harm to be lenient than strict.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Besides there is absolutely no need for the class to be on the bleeding edge so what is this great urgency to use materials that aren’t on the approved list?


Ah.... the guy who bought the sail wants the latest stuff for the event that matters... He will have it for two more years... Buying last year's design / material would burn... (see Nacra 20 sail debate)

I stick with the judgement needed standard!



Mark come on, you cannot compare the N20 situation to the illegal sail material at Worlds, the two issues are light years apart. I will never support an environment where the rules are bent/broken to support a real or perceived equipment edge. This is about finding the best sailor not the best equipment (and the debate goes on) and I supposed this is where the line in the sand will be drawn within the class. Those that believe that the competition is about finding who has the greater talent as opposed to finding someone that may have bent or blurred the rules to gain an equipment edge. It's just sad that bending/breaking the rules is such an accepted part of the game by so many under the guise of "good judgment". Someone’s definition of good judgment is easily another’s definition of corruption. Only a strict interpretation will keep everything transparent and equal for all.
Posted By: orphan

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:42 PM

My question would be "If the matieral does not offer some sort of advantage, why use it?" If it does offer an advantage, it is an advantage that sailors following the rules did not have.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:53 PM

Dave and Mike, you make excellent points. I can't fault the reasoning... The rank and file at the regatta did not raise a stink (as far as we know). Sail cloth is evolutionary... I suspect that this tempest... is truly in a tea cup. The cuben fiber thing was disruptive and destructive for a non America's Cup Class. Since that example, I don't know (heard of) of any other cloth controversies (really ignorant on this one). I am willing to trust the judgment of class officials on this one and write it off as just another fall out from the Tornado Class scandals.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
My question would be "If the matieral does not offer some sort of advantage, why use it?" If it does offer an advantage, it is an advantage that sailors following the rules did not have.


An assumption that should simply be a given in this debate! Why risk the sh!t storm if the reward isn't there?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 06:02 PM

The N20 point was just mentioned to point out that the consumer does not want to buy old crap.... that is it.. no relationship to rules at any event. Forcing you to purchase old crap is not a good policy.

I truly do not believe the sailors in question are looking to get an unfair edge... Small sailmakers buy the sail cloth in a bolt... they are not going to buy a bolt of old stuff when they can buy the latest version. The sail maker is selling his design and service but he is not going to screw himself with having left over material that he can't sell....
Remember it is a limited development class... being better is GOOD... being crazy $$$ would be judged illegal because it violated the class philosophy. If it was not available to all the racers... that would be UNFAIR.

You are right... the bottom line is that it is illegal... It is unlikely to be unfair... Judgement was used.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave and Mike, you make excellent points. I can't fault the reasoning... The rank and file at the regatta did not raise a stink (as far as we know). Sail cloth is evolutionary... I suspect that this tempest... is truly in a tea cup. The cuben fiber thing was disruptive and destructive for a non America's Cup Class. Since that example, I don't know (heard of) of any other cloth controversies (really ignorant on this one). I am willing to trust the judgment of class officials on this one and write it off as just another fall out from the Tornado Class scandals.



Mark this isn't the first equipment related issue... remember the Shockwave? I wanted a clear and decisive message sent then but in my opinion the class fell short (that is just my opinion as a class member not the chair). So, to see yet another equipment related issue pop up for the second year in a row makes me uneasy. I see this issue as a trend as opposed to an isolated incident.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 06:15 PM

AH.... got it.... a potentially bad trend... Your call!

I got my own issues with the A class.... I understand worrisome trends!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The N20 point was just mentioned to point out that the consumer does not want to buy old crap.... that is it.. no relationship to rules at any event. Forcing you to purchase old crap is not a good policy.

I truly do not believe the sailors in question are looking to get an unfair edge... Small sailmakers buy the sail cloth in a bolt... they are not going to buy a bolt of old stuff when they can buy the latest version. The sail maker is selling his design and service but he is not going to screw himself with having left over material that he can't sell....
You are right... the bottom line is that it is illegal... It is unlikely to be unfair... Judgement was used.



Fine, go to the class and get approval, what's the big freaking deal? When the loft get's the new materials catalog they can petition the class... done! Why make it a suprise at the most important regatta of the year? And again, this should have never been a surprise and should have been caught when the sails were measured.

In my opinion good judgement was not used from the time the cert was approved to the time the protest was finalized. Everyone involved didn't want to be responsible for tossing the top teams. The sailors and the lofts know what is approved and what isn't! Would the same ruling have been made for a team in the silver fleet?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 06:58 PM

I deliberately did not check who the protested parties were.
Once you do know who they are... you have a tough time keeping the issues clear... Given the limited facts... the decision could be good judgment. Alternatively, you could just say the good ol boys are doing their thing..SNAFU!

If you think the decision is a function of the names involved... now you are challenging the integrity of the class leaders. That is a real problem... good luck.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 07:07 PM

My point with that comment is, if the rules are followed and enforced blindly then the integrity of everyone involved is NEVER called into question. The moment you begin to think you know better than the rules the integrity of those involved is immediately called into question.

Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 07:24 PM

Gotta agree with Ding here.

Mark, I too agree that judgement needs to be applied, but that is primarily needed when the rules are UNclear.

From the USSAILING website: One of the main training points for judges is to: "1.Interpret the RRS and other rules as they are written, not as you think they should be written or as it was intended that they be written."

To simplify this (a bit)...

In the Tornado example, there was no rule excluding the material, but there was a fairness issue. In this case, a judgement call was needed to EXCLUDE the material.

In the F18 example, there is a list of what IS allowed, everything else is NOT allowed. In my opinion, judgement about "it's sort of similar" has no place at the table. Fairness should never have entered the discussion, it was an illegal material, period.

Mike
Posted By: Matt M

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Mark this isn't the first equipment related issue... remember the Shockwave? I wanted a clear and decisive message sent then but in my opinion the class fell short (that is just my opinion as a class member not the chair). So, to see yet another equipment related issue pop up for the second year in a row makes me uneasy. I see this issue as a trend as opposed to an isolated incident.


The F18 class has set itself up as 1 of if not the premier 2 up racing cat class. This means that there will be more and more pressure to “develop” advantages for racing, like it or not. Some of these attempts will be within the current rule set and many will push the boundaries, or even show up as cases of “cheating” whether by design or accident.

The class rules in the F18 were purposely written to be restrictive with the stated intent it would prevent cost escalations and equalize the racing. These are rules written with great intent, but it can be argued rather easily they can provide a false sense of security and can even be proved the opposite effect and make things more expensive.

Any open formula class is going to involve development. The costs for new models, sail developments etc are significant and will be transferred in 1 way or the other to the buyers of these boats. While there are a lot of benefits in getting better and faster boats over time, the costs are there. In many instances creating “development” and marketing model changes in a very restrictive environment adds more expense than in an open architecture. The class may not want it, but the builders and suppliers live off of selling an advantage.

If a certain material does not show up on the approved materials list, this does not mean that a material necessarily is more expensive than the ones listed. New building materials could provide better and cheaper boats in theory. The Shockwave instance is a great example where the rule did nothing to protect the class or racing integrity, but can be argued hurt the class. (at least hurt people who were involved in the class and adding to the class) These builders used a locally produced and supplied structurally equivalent material that happened to not be on the approved list. Meanwhile the core materials listed as approved by the class have gone through at least 5 process and material changes, so they other than the brand name barely represent a fixed reference point of equality.

Yes if it is written down it has to be followed or the favoritism issue etc will become rampant. Over documentation and specification though is society wide problem. The $500 hammer cost that much because some guy in a room wrote a specification that when followed made the hammer cost that much to produce.

Before the trolls fire off here; I am not in favor or against the F18 rules here and only refer to it because it is an F18 thread. This is bash on rules in general. One would like to think the world capable of operating under the catch-all of "the spirit of the rule" or fairness or whatever, but somebody somewhere s going to show up and F it up everytime.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 07:46 PM

I understand... The real world is a B tch and the integrity issues can come up. But it does not mean that your integrity is corrupted either.

Again, If the sail material would be approved after the regatta...What is the just decision?

No doubt...sorting out illegal from legal.. Fair from unfair and just from unjust in a restricted development class involving the top class sailors could lead to very different outcomes based on what you value.

Legal vs Illegal?... Not Legal!... It is a technical violation of the material approval rule.

Fair vs Unfair? ... So long as all sailmakers COULD have built a technically illegal sail and anyone could have gotten one from this or any other sailmaker.... Probably Fair on the Race course in this limited development class.

Just or un-Just?.. generally god gets to do the justice thing... but I support a just decision by the class to ignore the technical failure to get prior approval.

I certainly see your point and have a lot of sympathy..
(Your state's jury just did the just versus legal thing with that bimbo in the child murder trial)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 07:59 PM

Quote
n this case, a judgement call was needed to EXCLUDE the material.


Ah (for the record).... but this could not be done... no rules on material... or the principal that everyone should be able to purchase the raw materials... using Unobtainium was not illegal. So... anything goes! The loophole resulted in a non level playing field in my view... ISAF could just grit their teeth and learn the lesson for the next time.

Fortunately, the F18 class has learned a lot from the T experience.... I don't see the F18 sail material issue as cheating (like I did the T's)

Legal? Fair? Just? Hell of a debate!
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 08:29 PM

David totally agree with you. The rules must be followed in the strictest sense.
Posted By: orphan

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 08:29 PM

What was the sailmakers reason for using the material? Did they say?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Matt M

If a certain material does not show up on the approved materials list, this does not mean that a material necessarily is more expensive than the ones listed. New building materials could provide better and cheaper boats in theory. The Shockwave instance is a great example where the rule did nothing to protect the class or racing integrity, but can be argued hurt the class. (at least hurt people who were involved in the class and adding to the class) These builders used a locally produced and supplied structurally equivalent material that happened to not be on the approved list. Meanwhile the core materials listed as approved by the class have gone through at least 5 process and material changes, so they other than the brand name barely represent a fixed reference point of equality.


Yeah that whole, the supplier was right down the road and it's cheaper so it's okay excuse 1 - is NOT the point and 2 - Why couldn't the builder have come to the class and petitioned for the material to be added? WHAT'S THE BIG FREAKING DEAL!? If the Shockwave would not have been holed at Worlds last year would the builder have come to the class...ever!? In fact PVC is stated as being cheaper and stiffer in comparison to the approved core materials, so again the builders that are playing by the rules are punished and those skirting the rules are rewarded (until they get busted). Still not happy with how that one played out.

Matt, you're a builder/supplier so naturally you will have a bias to a more relaxed rule environment. Which is another reason why I'm not totally comfortable with builders and sail makers on the F18 technical committee, it's a bit like having the foxes in the hen house.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
What was the sailmakers reason for using the material? Did they say?


Because it offered absolutely no advantage to the currently approved materials... and was cheaper. I totally made that up, but how much do you want to bet...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


Again, If the sail material would be approved after the regatta...What is the just decision?



I think that's pretty obvious . It was illegal at the regatta (unapproved)and it will be legal after it is approved. Cut and dry, it was illegal during Worlds, don't care who used it.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 09:31 PM

The sails in question were made of an approved cloth, the only issue was that there was some stickyback cloth applied at the tack and clew of the sails that was not on the list.

The cloth is cheaper than the approved ones and there was no performance gain or any other advantage in using the cloth.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 10:02 PM

My questions,
1 Did the sail maker petition to have this sail cloth approved before the worlds?
2 Did the sail maker build these sails and distrubute them before applying for approval?

I agree that the rules were broken and the scores should not count. Maybe next year someone shows up with painted Carbon spars and just says but they were available a close in price. No body would have known had I not snapped my mast.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Matt, you're a builder/supplier so naturally you will have a bias to a more relaxed rule environment. Which is another reason why I'm not totally comfortable with builders and sail makers on the F18 technical committee, it's a bit like having the foxes in the hen house.



It’s not a builder thing with me, I hate over specifying anything. I deal with this every day, where some rule writer felt they needed to be so thorough as to cover every eventuality; they totally missed the point of the rule in the first place.

There was a lot more behind the curtain relative to the Shockwave story, but he was wrong to not research first and at least submit a request. That is the rules and they are written, so have to be followed – I get it; no problem.

A better example is the current life jacket issue in the US. Yes we should require life jackets. But somebody felt they needed to be thorough, so they just could not end with “life Jackets will be worn” they had to include more words and they could not just say “certified” but had to go into even more detail on who’s type and cert would be followed. Now the more common brands for cat friendly vests are all CE branded and technically now illegal for use in many US events due to the over use of words.

Too many laws, too many rules and most are conflicting or useless. That’s my soap box issue of the day.

Tomorrow – Insurance
Day after – Stop lights
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 10:07 PM

When are you going to tackle nuclear proliferation?
Posted By: pgp

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 10:19 PM

Have some?

Attached picture popcorn.JPG
Posted By: windswept

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 10:20 PM

I am not an F-18 sailor but have read through this thread. Could someone explain to me what the Shockwave issue was and what sailcloth was used without class approval?

thanks,
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 11:13 PM

Shockwave issue was an unapproved core material.
The sail cloth issue was an unapproved material used in sail construction of the Sail Innovation sails used by some of the teams.

From what Macca said it sounds like the reinforcement cloth used int the sails were not on the list of approved materials. I thought it was the spin material but I was not there so im just guessing.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 11:21 PM

F18 rules

D.3 HULL SHELLS
D.3.1 MATERIALS
(a) The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin, glass
fibres, core of PVC or balsa or felt. The combination of wood-epoxy,
injected plastic, which shall not be altered, other than locally for fittings,
and passage of equipment and normal reinforcement. Epoxy glue is
permitted for joining components. Every material that is not expressly
permitted is prohibited.

Since the world there's some rumorous about shockwave..

Shockwave core is Corecell.
Corecell isn't PVC or balsa or felt
So Corecell is prohibited in F18 rules.
Corecell marketing is that it is a better alternative to PVC.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/12/11 11:38 PM

5th place boat filed a request for clarification. (Not a Protest) against.
Second
Ninth
Tenth
Twenty Eight.
Along with several other boats cited.

From Tony on page 6 http://db.tt/Q84gMyV

Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 09:12 AM

Quote

G.3.2 MATERIALS
(a) The ply fibres shall consist only of polyester materials as detailed in the Mainsail Sailcloth Appendix.


Quote
(c) Sail reinforcement shall comply with Mainsail Sailcloth Appendix.


Black and white. If it is not on the list it is illegal. Does not matter how cheap or expensive, fast or slow it is.

If a sail maker wants to build and F18 sail and supply it to a customer as one, they need to understand the rules from measurment to material specs.

If a class measurer is measuring in the sails, he needs to also understand and follow these rules.

If a sail cloth provider wants their material to be elegibale for F18 sail production, they must seek approval from the F18 class.

Do you really need to make it even more simple than this?
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 10:07 AM

It's never that simple...

Not one of the boats at the worlds had sails that complied with the class rules.

So why pick on one sailmaker for a trivial issue when the rest of the fleet was in breach as well?

That's the bigger issue here.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by macca
It's never that simple...

Not one of the boats at the worlds had sails that complied with the class rules.


You've gotta back that up with some facts!
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 11:10 AM

Check the rule on batten pocket width. Then go measure yours....

While you are at it you can remove your dyneema trap lines smile

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Check the rule on batten pocket width. Then go measure yours....

While you are at it you can remove your dyneema trap lines smile


The traplines are legal.
From the IF18CA december minutes:

F.6.2 CONSTRUCTION
From 1st January 2011
(a) MANDATORY
(1) A forestay and bridles of 1 x19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
(2) Shrouds of 1 x 19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
(3) Trapeze wires of stranded wire or textile with a minimum diameter of 2.5mm.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) A pair of diamond wires of 1 x 19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
The compliance date of 1st January 2011 would give any affected boats 12 months to comply.


Will measure my batten pockets later, you could just be making that up grin
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 12:02 PM

Minutes from a meeting do not make them rules... The rules we sailed under at Balaton were the current Isaf approved rules. Published 26th April 2010.

Therefore, no dyneema trap lines were legal. Batten pockets on all boats are illegal and 1x7 3mm sidestays etc were still legal.

New rules are yet to be put in place and as such the regatta was governed by the April 2010 set.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 12:23 PM

I think the main difference here is that the trap lines will certainly be legal by 1-1-2012 as it says in the minutes (vote was unanimous), AFAIK this is not the case with the cloth issue.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 12:44 PM

The rules are the rules.... So we either sail to them as they are written or we all do whatever we like...

As a bit of reality here: there is no advantage in using the sticky cloth In The patches, but saving 500 grams in your rig from dyneema trap lines is a clear advantage. So as per the rules current for the event: who is more wrong??

There are plenty of boats breaching current rules and even the yet to be released rules and if the builders of these boats want to keep throwing stones at competitors they should expect a few big ones thrown back at them..

Posted By: orphan

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 01:01 PM

What made the batten pockets illegal?
Also could we get clearification on exactly what was the illegal cloth and how was it used?
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 01:05 PM

Why weren't there more protests? Because everyone was in violation?
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 01:16 PM

The batten pocket rule as per the April 2010 set allows for a max of 30mm wide batten pockets in mainsail and 25mm on jibs. Not one sail at the worlds complied. 

The cloth issue was simply a small area of reinforcement at the tack and clew of the main and jib. The body of the sails were fully compliant. Just a small area of stickyback was applied to the corners. 

The reason everyone (except for the one) let the issues slide is one of sportsmanship. The sails were measured by the head measurer and approved. Everyone knew of the issue with the stickyback from the first day of the worlds, I had people asking for my thoughts before the first race. My comment was that if you want to protest then you better do it on day one or let it be. 
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 01:34 PM

So the bottom line.... the technical committee exercised "judgement".

The other word that sailors used (thanks Macca) was "sportsmanship"

so.... Legal... vs Illegal... (they all were illegal for many issues)

Fair vs Unfair... (Also called sportsmanship).... Everyone agreed the situation was Fair.

Just vs Unjust... (the powers that be... chose Fair/sportsmanship over Illegal.)

You need the proper stringency of rules to stop an A hole from blowing up the sportsmanship and going for an edge.... (See many many examples in the Tornado experience)... Eventually, they got the rules about right... but who knows... there is one born every minute... You don't need a phone book of rules to freeze time (per Matt M)

Unfortunately, it is a lot of work to keep the rules timely and relevant if you are going to value legal over fair.
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 07/13/11 05:35 PM

There are some very helpful posts here for the discussion. Thanks Macca and Rich for the inside scoop and applicable class rules references.

Originally Posted by Matt M
…This is bash on rules in general. One would like to think the world capable of operating under the catch-all of "the spirit of the rule" or fairness or whatever, but somebody somewhere s going to show up and F it up everytime.

Matt, I’m totally with you on your last sentence, it is sad (but a reality) that a minority of folks can and do choose to push the limits and ruin it for everyone else who is playing fairly. Rules are the primary hedge against this.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
So the bottom line.... the technical committee exercised "judgement".
The other word that sailors used (thanks Macca) was "sportsmanship"
so.... Legal... vs Illegal... (they all were illegal for many issues)
Fair vs Unfair... (Also called sportsmanship).... Everyone agreed the situation was Fair.
Just vs Unjust... (the powers that be... chose Fair/sportsmanship over Illegal.)
You need the proper stringency of rules to stop an A hole from blowing up the sportsmanship and going for an edge.... (See many many examples in the Tornado experience)... Eventually, they got the rules about right... but who knows... there is one born every minute... You don't need a phone book of rules to freeze time (per Matt M)

Mark, I agree with all of this (and you beat me to it!)…

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Unfortunately, it is a lot of work to keep the rules timely and relevant if you are going to value legal over fair.

Mark, this misses the point. Everyone wants the events to be fair. Rules help get you there, and when the rules are broken, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need to be changed to have a fair game.


One thing I would like to see some discussion on is the authority of the technical committee. I didn’t see anything in the NOR giving a technical committee any authority at this event. The F18 class rules (section A8) state that the IJ is responsible to interpret the class rules. Can someone help me to understand this?


Now, the list of issues in the posts above poses a conundrum for the OA and IJ. Ultimately, the event is for the sailors, so usually the first thing to do is ask, what kind of event do the sailors want?

For example, I know that at Hobie regattas, if you hit a mark or another boat, you are expected to spin (or retire). At Opti regattas, unless you T-bone someone out of the blue, bumper boats and mark abuse is rampant and tolerated by the sailors. Sometimes the RC is asked if they intend to protest these clear violations, and the answer (typically) is “No, that’s the sailors’ responsibility.”


In the list of items above, I see the following (let’s just assume all of this is true):

1. A very small number of boats had sails constructed of non-approved materials.

2. All boats had sails that did not meet the required measurement for batten pockets.

3. Some number (not specified) of boats had dyneema trap lines instead of wires.

All of these are clearly violations of the class rules and thus illegal. Let’s pretend they all went to the IJ, what would happen?

1: Most likely, the boats protested for #1 would be tossed. This was a rule violation, and was only on a small number of boats. To be as fair as possible, they should have been warned before sailing and given a chance to change sails. If they did not, they should have been DSQ (or DNE) for the equipment violations for all races in which those sails were used. This should have been done on Day 1 to minimize the impact.

2: Most likely, this would have been dismissed. You can’t toss every boat (or there wouldn’t be an event), and unless someone could prove that a small number of boats had battens so large that there was a huge performance advantage, there’s really nothing to be done here.

3. This one is tougher. If all the boats violated the rule, then I could see it being dismissed. If a small number gained a significant advantage, then there would need to be some enforcement.


Definitely not as black-and-white as one would hope, but again, it comes down to the type of event that the sailors want to race. If no one chooses to protest, that may be an indication of sportsmanship, or may come back to bite the class later.

Thankfully for the IJ, these items did not go to protest. I would hate to have to decide on something where 50% of the boats were using the dyneema, for example…

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/14/11 01:29 PM

Quote
Mark, this misses the point. Everyone wants the events to be fair. Rules help get you there, and when the rules are broken, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need to be changed to have a fair game.



Yes your right. ... I overstated/mistated.. my point..

Should have left it as... Its a lot of work to make sure the rules keep up with the sport. It is essential that they do though.

Your opti example makes the point that competitors (not umpires or RM) determine the game..

At the same time... It's a troublesome state... maybe if the boats had bumpers... that were removed as you moved up the color scale... I would be less concerned.

(Speaking of juniors... Who are the two girls from Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club who are scoring in the top 10 at the Ida Lewis 420 USSA championships this week? Way to go!... Ditto to the boys at the ISAF championships.... It's tough when you can't find a SL16 to sail before you travel the world to race)
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 01:42 PM

Sail Innovation sail certificates were invalidated.

http://www.f18-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=144:emergency-ruling&catid=1:headlines-
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 04:50 PM

I guess some people will want their money back...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 05:56 PM

Just guessing here... I would bet that the Worlds standings are set in stone having already been adjudicated.....

The question was... how do you sanction the sail loft?.. Apparently... you ban the sails from further f18 competition and hope the unhappy owners of now illegal sails sue them and demand their money back. Its probably the best outcome you could hope for. You can't ban the loft from making more sails without the class getting sued by the loft.

The T class did that with the Cuban fiber sails after the Olympics. A few unhappy owners of cuben fiber bolts.

Now the interesting question... would you protest these guys in your regional regatta for using the sail...
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 06:08 PM

Will this change any other events if their results are thrown out? EuroCat, Texel, ect ?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 07:20 PM

No protests are pending.... Hard to see how you can reopen a regatta result.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
Now the interesting question... would you protest these guys in your regional regatta for using the sail...

It will never come to that, the sails no longer have certificates so they wont be able to complete their entry into an F18 regatta (regional or not).
Posted By: samc99us

Re: sail material control - 07/30/11 11:26 PM

That's crazy that a loft would be producing illegal sails....I'd be getting my money back on those for sure, or at least having them re-cut to meet spec (and the loft better be doing that for free)
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 07/31/11 05:11 AM

Stupidity reigns high again in the f18 class....

Of all the sails certificates that are on the list published, there are from memory less than 6 that are in breach of the reinforcing rule. The rest of the sails on the list are perfectly legal, the only crime is that they are recently measured sails from that loft.

A more logical and sane solution would have been to order all sail innovation sails measured in the last 12 months be remeasured by a certain date. Then the baby is not tossed with the bath water.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/31/11 02:44 PM

I was under the impression that the reinforcing material was a mistake... NOT a push for an edge. Is this still the basic understanding?

Obviously..... the issue is not the baby... it's to hammer this loft and make them an example to all of the other lofts... but also to the sailors.... "Hmmm should I take a chance on a small loft... hmmm... if they screw up... I am the one screwed..."
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 07/31/11 09:24 PM

Mark
I disagreee with you only because the sails named in the origional complaint were all the "rockstars". I'm pretty sure the team boats for Cirrus and Phantom know what their sails are made from. These are the people who go to the factory and lofts when their stuff is made. They knew, they gambled they lost.
The only fair thing to do is throw out those results. You cheat you get caught you pay the price. If only some of the S.I. sails were wrong and some were legal this was no accident.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 07/31/11 10:19 PM

Ah...

The evidence has been reported that there was no performance advantage.

No one is saying it's an accident... it is an error in judgement for sure!

Now you have elevated the charge to cheating. ie willful disobeying the rules!

I don't think you can make that stick. The jury at the Worlds did not make it stick... Reinforcing tape is a measurable performance edge?? for real???

I bet the back story is all about market share for sails and who can stab who in the back without being noticed.

Quote
These are the people who go to the factory and lofts when their stuff is made.


This the legend of past Hobie days... Blah Blah, rock star, had his boat specially fabricated, so its fast while joe schmo gets an ordinary (slow) boat. I heard these stories back in the day... I think it's a function of the strict one design mentality and the crap that you had to buy .. This mindset does not apply here.

1) The F18 class allows custom sails... the team get get what ever they want custom made so long as it measures in. So.. no problem... Joe Schmo can get the same service... he just has to know what to ask for (oops)!

2) There is a reason all boats are given unique names.... They are all individuals... Some boats, just like cars, just have that special thing... Ie... it's a fast boat. One of the very successful Olympic teams used their 10 year old Marstrom....not there newer boat... It just had that speed thing.. Why?... who knows.

At the top level... it's all about the mast...the nature of alu extrusions make them all unique and some are fast and others are not. Sorting through masts is part of the game... NOT a special advantage afforded the rock stars. Rock Stars know enough to discriminate. The Tornado's had to change to Carbon Fiber sticks to cut the crap when a development war in alu sticks made the playing field uneven. Again... Rock stars don't have a thumb on the scale with the builder, they have hard earned knowledge that makes a difference and they use it.

The playing field is level... its just a tough group of competitors on the field.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 07/31/11 11:32 PM

Details are hard to come by on this issue. Pretty hard to work out what the hell is going on.

Macca, if most of the sails are fine then can't the owners just have them remeasured?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 12:13 AM

Mark,
I've gotta agree with Rich. I don't think it's quite as innocent as you're making it out to be. It really doesn't matter either way without the facts, so we'll see.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 12:58 AM

Doesn't it surprise you that the FACTS are not officially put out there... Hmmm!

The class should have made a statement of fact findings public. Rather, they render judgements (Move along... nothing to see here for worlds.... Ban these sails forever)

The only one with some facts has been Macca... Another source would corroborate his facts.. Or the class could make their findings public to refute Macca's understanding. Something official is absolutely required!

If this was a mistake by the sail loft IMO, the sails should be repaired and independently re measured at the sailmakers cost (as Macca suggested).

If the loft is cheating and duped some buyers and some other sailors were CHEATING... then the class better have some definitive facts or be willing to go to court. The sail loft is out a lot more then 15K for 10 sails... His entire business is at stake in this market... and perhaps other markets.. Likewise, take each sailor, If you were duped by the loft, do you want your reputation clouded by the non disclosure of the class, it's all a big mystery!. If you did well in the regatta and the sails are now banned... do you want your reputation colored by the class who implies that you cheated but did not toss you?

So far, the class has at least two people convinced that those guys were cheaters...

I am amazed that the class thinks they can pull this stunt off and escape the terrible PR.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 01:45 AM

Mark
I was just pointing out that the ones involved are the kind of people who know every detail of their boat. It has nothing to do with the one design mentality. I understand that custom sails are available and own a nice set of Custom sails. However when I ordered them I made sure the sails would measure to be class legal and only use aproved materials from the F-18 class rules.

So if there is no performance advantage why would you use an unaproved material? When you base your name on your new boat and new sails then show up at the worlds with something thats illegal. It makes no sence.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 02:00 AM

I have no idea what the sailmaker was doing..

My guess is... He interpreted the rules to mean Sail Material must be legal... which it was..

He could have thought reinforcing tape is not regulated as sail material.

So, I would judge "mistake"... not cheating... Solution: fix mistake and re measure.

That is what the jury did Mistake... cary on.. .... NOW the class has some issues here that are not transparently resolved.

(I will be thunderstruck if you checked out the reinforcing tapes on your sail were on the proper list...)
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 02:41 AM

Macca where are you???
Posted By: Jake

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
A
2) There is a reason all boats are given unique names.... They are all individuals... Some boats, just like cars, just have that special thing... Ie... it's a fast boat. One of the very successful Olympic teams used their 10 year old Marstrom....not there newer boat... It just had that speed thing.. Why?... who knows.


We've kept statistics on the boats used in the Alter Cup for several years now. It's funny because the sailors always pick a couple of boats that they are sure are just "faster boats". The statistics, however, show a very uniform and even spread among boats and finish positions.
Posted By: Jake

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 02:46 AM

the story for this episode has changed over time. I would like to hear the real story about what was found to be illegal.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 03:20 AM

Quote
We've kept statistics on the boats used in the Alter Cup for several years now. It's funny because the sailors always pick a couple of boats that they are sure are just "faster boats". The statistics, however, show a very uniform and even spread among boats and finish positions.


Jake,
Yes, I have always found that stat encouraging. Boat weights in good tolerance and performance pretty even.

I will be interested if the Olympic sailors will want a provided boat... If you think that boats are individuals...and at the very least... you want to know yours inside and out... you will not like a provided boat for the most important regatta of your life.

I have never had a second helping of a boat design so I can't say... if one seemed faster then the other.

No doubt, each boat is a unique individual to me though.
Your mileage may vary!
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I have no idea what the sailmaker was doing..

My guess is... He interpreted the rules to mean Sail Material must be legal... which it was..

He could have thought reinforcing tape is not regulated as sail material.

So, I would judge "mistake"... not cheating... Solution: fix mistake and re measure.

That is what the jury did Mistake... cary on.. .... NOW the class has some issues here that are not transparently resolved.

(I will be thunderstruck if you checked out the reinforcing tapes on your sail were on the proper list...)


Actually had that very conversation 3 weeks ago with the sail maker and the local distributor. Watch out for the thunderstrike.

The local loft thought I was being OCD by making sure every detail was right and the sails would be legal.

Maybe when you have to buy the sails and boat yourself you care more.

I don't think the boats involved were cheating to get an advantage. I have talked with several of them in the past and are all great guys. However the material was not on the approved list so it is illegal.

To me this seems like someone said hey let's try this and it probably will work. Easier to ask for forgiveness later than permission now.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 03:24 AM

Quote
Watch out for the thunderstrike.

Why did I know you were OCD when I wrote that.... I just had a feeling it was coming back at me... (grin).
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 04:07 AM

It's cool Mark I'll buy ya a beer at Hyannis.
(after you sign the cert for my sails)
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Aido
Details are hard to come by on this issue. Pretty hard to work out what the hell is going on.

Macca, if most of the sails are fine then can't the owners just have them remeasured?


The owners of the sails on the published list will now have to get them remeasured even though all but a few sets are perfectly legal.

Once again: there is really no performance advantage in the stickyback cloth being used.

All this mess over a minor, non performance related breach and all the while the buk of the fleet were using dynema trap lines which are clearly not allowed.


Imagine if the Shockwave foam core debacle was handled this way? There is an advantage in using corecell as it produces a stiffer panel yet the class let it go untouched.

Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 03:44 PM

Mark, do you have a dog in this fight? You seem to be really worked up over this.

Macca, what is the path forward for the Dyneema issue?

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 04:19 PM

No dog... Two principals.. Fair play and transparency.

I just think that screwing some sailors and a loft that had the look of making a successful sail is a power play by the big $$$ players in the class. This issue is just a pretense to maintain their bit of market share. If your sock puppets make enough noise about the terrible violation committed by this small loft. (reinforcing tape) The effect will be to herd people to the big and safe sailmakers.

Look at Rich.... He had to go OCD on his sailmaker because of this.... Others won't.... they will go to performance or Hobie or whatever is a safe pick.. So, you speak out for Fair play when the power structure is throwing their weight around! I believe that having a LOCAL SAILMAKER is essential for growing and maintaining a development fleet. Their job is to service and educate us mortal sailors... Tilting the playing field unfairly is simply not good for the sport.

Transparency. The class is attempting to "handle" the issue. Why not release a factual report and solve the issue for other class members with a letter to each owner requesting re-measurement or what ever the fix would be.

I choose to believe that the overwhelming number of sailors are trying to play the game fairly... This one just smelled funny from the onset.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Mark, do you have a dog in this fight? You seem to be really worked up over this.

Macca, what is the path forward for the Dyneema issue?

Mike


The Dyneema trap lines have been voted by the WC and when the next version of the rules have been approved by ISAF then they may well be legal, until that time they are not allowed as per the rule.

As Mark said, the issue is a total beatup of one loft, this was facilitated by the technical comm which is funnily enough made up with the bigger loft owners as the majority..
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/01/11 06:17 PM

Thanks guys.

You know, there is an out for the Dyneema and batten issues. Per RRS 87, an event is allowed to change class rules within the SIs, with written permission from the class association.

Hopefully the OA is aware of these issues for the NAs, and is working to get ahead of it? The NOR is currently silent on equipment rule changes.

Mike
Posted By: F18arg

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 12:57 AM

One thing should be pointed out regarding the Shockwave vs SI 'affaire'

The sails with the ilegal polyester patches(no carbon at all but not on the list) were only the sails of the Pro Teams, the others sails didn´t use these special patches.

The analogy should have been that the Pro teams of loday-white (Wilson-Lynch and the French top crew) getting Corecell and the rest PVC standard cores.

Sadly SI knew what they were doing as they separate their production -
They also report some ilegal patches on other sailmakers that is being analyzed.

The reported (onsite at Hungary) ilegal sails from Balaton were sold to club sailors afterwards too.

So is not that easy accusation on the class being influenced by other lofts lobbies.

If a cloth not on the list, it is an ilegal sail, end of discussion. (Applied to any loft of course)
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 02:49 AM

Bout time we got the real story.

So clearly they were going after a performance advantage cause that stuff is light as a feather. Therefore they were cheating and have pretty much got away with it.

This whole story has been handled horribly.

Why was not something said during measuring. SI have been using that stuff for 2 years at least.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 06:00 AM

The SI team sails were made lighter than normal customer sails, they were of a lighter (approved cloth) with smaller patching. There is no rule that defines the primary or secondary patching size, So why even call it patching, it might as well be decorative. Could have even put a vinyl sticker there. The mistake SI made was by using something that was supplied by a sailcloth manufacturer.

As i said in my initial post: the sails were using cloth that was not on the main and jib approved list, and that was wrong for sure. My issue is with how it was dealt with and also why other more serious breaches of the current rules were left alone.

The last line of Martin's post (F18arg) says it all: "If a cloth not on the list, it is an ilegal sail, end of discussion. (Applied to any loft of course)"

Now all you F18 sailors, go and have a look at the your tack, head and clew of your kites, under the kite cloth. The patching in most of them (i'm not going to name lofts, but its the majority) is illegal. There is dacron patching in the corners and if anyone can find dacron on the cloth list for Spi's then you can keep using your kites. Again: those in glass houses smile
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 06:42 AM

Sorry Macca Patches are Patches. The dacron that is in the very corner of the sail is called blocks or gumbies. Blocks are not reffered to in the rules so you should be able to build them out of whatever you want. You can have all patches you want but without a dacron block you wont be sailing very far.

I totally agree that it has been dealt with shockingly. It should have been caught out sooner in a protest room that wasn't at a world championship. And dealt with properly instead of letting them off with a slap on the wrist. The whole situation is very strange but intriguing.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 07:38 AM

But with no size for patches being determined, there is nothing to say what the stickyback cloth was for (maybe a patch, maybe a decorative feature) Similarly there are no limits on corner blocks, so what is to stop anyone building an entire sail from it??

The rules are ****, and even worse: they are being applied selectively.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 07:58 AM

I would love to see someone build a sail from stickyback. That would be classic. All most as funny as one built from 11 oz gumby dacron.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 09:26 AM

But with no defined cloth type, weight or area used, it's possible to build a sail out of anything or any weight and just claim it's the blocking.

Everyone is crying that the rules were broken and somebody must be punished, but every boat at the worlds broke the rules so what makes this issue different?
Posted By: F18arg

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 11:43 AM

In the blog you have my attemtp to describe facts taking account on both sides and the actions made by the class.
As I'm reading here things without a base, so is better to have all the possible info on the table.

Is true that SI was false accused on using carbon, is true that some speculation was used too.


As Macca says , now some other sails must be checked, and the actions if those cloths are not on the list must be equal to those taken against si.


You can have real lobbies against you, but you need to comply the rules. Now if those accusing you are not following the rules , well that would be even more disastrous for them.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 08:47 PM

Martin, Im offended that yo seem to think my claims are without base. Maccas are without base.

From Isaf Measurement rules.

1.6.1 Primary reinforcement

An unrestricted number of additional Ply of Permitted Material.
At a corner
At a cunningham Point
at a reefing point adjacent to the luff or leech
at a spinniker recoverery point
Where permitted by class rules

Quite clear wouldn't you say. This is for the primary reinforcing.

Now for the block gumbys or tabling

Rule 1.5.8 Tabling

Additional ply or folded ply overlap(s) at the edge of a sail ( Tabling may be in addition to Permitted reinforcement)

So these 2 rules make it perfectly clear that primary reinforcing should be made from stuff permitted in the body of the sails (as permitted in class rules), and tabling is in addition to the primary reinforcement.

Any good sailmaker is aware of these rules. Its part of his job. SO ill say it again that they knew what they were doing was wrong and got away with it. Even got away with a world championship. And now seem to be pointing the finger at other sailmakers, whom i guarantee are doing the right thing, and saying "look he did it too" like some sort of spoilt brat. Disgraceful.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 09:14 PM

Just to make it clear, the Rules above mean your argument is bullshite Macca. Even if you do have a crap set of class rules (which the f18 is obviously not), you can revert to the ISAF rules that are there to cover all classes. Pretty cool hey. You should remember that. I know how much you love the room you might need it one day.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 09:41 PM

Actually, there is no provision in the class rules to use any other cloth that that specified in the sail cloth list. The wording in the cloth list is:- "Spinnaker Reinforcements: Any sail cloth on the spinnaker list" So feel free to take something from the list, but nothing else. Tabling is allowed at the sail edge, not as a corner patch (primary reinforcement) From what I have been informed there are a number of sails that have non listed cloth used in that application.

Maybe the intent of the rule is to allow the patching, but unfortunately the intent of the rule is worth nothing. It must state what is allowed and what is not.


Sure SI knew they were using a cloth that was not on the list, but if following the rules to the letter are what we all want enforced then there are many more areas that are of concern yet they go untouched.. And i'm not just referring to the patching on kites or dyneema trap lines.

Again, my main issue is with the way it was dealt with, and the motivation behind it.


Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Aido

From Isaf Measurement rules.

1.6.1 Primary reinforcement

An unrestricted number of additional Ply of Permitted Material.
At a corner
At a cunningham Point
at a reefing point adjacent to the luff or leech
at a spinniker recoverery point
Where permitted by class rules

Quite clear wouldn't you say. This is for the primary reinforcing.

Now for the block gumbys or tabling

Rule 1.5.8 Tabling

Additional ply or folded ply overlap(s) at the edge of a sail ( Tabling may be in addition to Permitted reinforcement)


Not sure where you are getting the above rules and rule numbers from, but the current 2009-2012 Equipment Rules of Sailing have the following:-

G.6 SAIL REINFORCEMENT
G.6.1 Primary Reinforcement
An unrestricted number of additional layers of ply of permitted material:
at a corner
at a adjustment point
at a reefing point adjacent to the luff
at a reefing point adjacent to the leech
at a sail recovery point
where permitted by the class rules

And Tabling:-

G.6.3 Tabling
Additional ply or folded ply overlap(s) at a sail edge.

Note: the Tabling rule falls clearly under G.6 Sail Reinforcement, and the Class rule approved cloth list refers to "Spinnaker Reinforcements,
Any sail cloth on the spinnaker list"

From the Class rules:-
G.5
G.5.1
(a) The ply fibres shall consist only of nylon or polyester materials as detailed in Spinnaker Sailcloth Appendix.
(b) Sail reinforcement shall comply with Spinnaker Sailcloth Appendix.

To be correct in allowing additional cloths to be used in Tabling then those cloths should be defined in the cloth list.
Posted By: F18arg

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 10:22 PM

Aido, Take it easy! Where I did say anything about your claims?
I just clarified in my post above on the Shockwave comparison as before that I saw various arguments that needed more feedback.
Not yours.

The idea is to provide more info.That's all.

Macca is one of the most technical guys out there, his concern is why all came to the si issue and the answer for that is quite simple.

Cause it was put formally on the table at the running event in Balaton (and not before)with a request info that triggered a protest.

The consequences of this issue is that there will be no more margin for none. And I think is better this way.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 10:23 PM

Same rules Macca. Just the older version but nothing has changed.

Twist it any way you want. This is not the first time an issue like this has happened. There are many precedents and the intention of the rules have been established. Tabling is in addition to permited reinforcement.

The class rules are referring to primary reinforcing so that is where SI have messed up, or blatently cheated IMO.

Trying to suggest tabling material is part of the primary reinforcement is grasping at straws to say the least. And basically irrrelavent to the issue of illegal patches.

I would suggest SI are trying to muddy the waters to deflect some of the heat from their obvious indiscretions.

It doesn't wash with me.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 10:35 PM

All I'm trying to point out is that the rules are there perfectly clear for anyone to read or take action on. It is not up to the class association to police measurement issues.

The measurers measure the equipment and report what they find. It is up to the individual sailors to protest on any findings. This is where the process has fallen down.

You cannot blame the class rules as Macca is doing. They are fine. If there is a problem with the Shockwave or the SI sails or anything else. Then someone has to be the "bad guy" and file a protest. Forget the were all friends and no one wants to make enemies, these guys were cheating. What's worse?

It's not the fault of the class rules or the race commitee or the f18 council. It's the fault of every individual skipper who allow cheating to go unpunished.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 10:40 PM

Aido, have you seen the reinforcing in question? its certainly not primary.



Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Aido
All I'm trying to point out is that the rules are there perfectly clear for anyone to read or take action on. It is not up to the class association to police measurement issues.

The measurers measure the equipment and report what they find. It is up to the individual sailors to protest on any findings. This is where the process has fallen down.

You cannot blame the class rules as Macca is doing. They are fine. If there is a problem with the Shockwave or the SI sails or anything else. Then someone has to be the "bad guy" and file a protest. Forget the were all friends and no one wants to make enemies, these guys were cheating. What's worse?

It's not the fault of the class rules or the race commitee or the f18 council. It's the fault of every individual skipper who allow cheating to go unpunished.


The Class measurers are paid to do exactly what you say they are not... They are there to measure and approve equipment submitted to them. What if I asked my local measurer to certify my new 3.2m wide F18? should he issue the certificate or after measuring it to be outside the rules should he tell me to get the hacksaw out?
Sure the sailors have a responsibility to ensure their equipment is legal as it is also their right to question another teams equipment. But to do it on the second last day of a Worlds?? when you have been aware of it all week?

The class rules currently have several areas that are allowing issues to arise and they will continue to happen. What should be resolved (apart from the holes in the rules) is the process that class takes in these cases. I suggest that the Balaton affair was a perfect case in how not to do it.


The shockwave issue was raised at a TC meeting and not used as a weapon during a regatta, I know this because I was the one who brought the matter to the TC and presented it. That approach was not impacting on the results of an event and it was resolved in a way that rightly or wrongly protected the owners investments. This was the correct way to handle such an issue that was not really performance related (same as the SI sails) but more a heads up that there needs to be more attention paid to some areas.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 11:11 PM

Aido

If this is issue is so clear... Why did the protest committee give it a pass?

When you don't know the sailors, the lofts, and the internal class politics, your opinion is not shaped by ... XX is a good guy and YY is an A hole (and he won). From a distance, this looks like a pissing contest between the ins and the outs and nothing more and it looks unfair.

Setting the process BS aside. Is it even reasonable that this reinforcing material be banned in the first place? Was there a move to have this approved and it was denied and for what reason was it denied. Perhaps this is a long simmering battle between the ins and the outs and the material is just the latest weapon?

Since I am sure you buy these materials in bulk....It would be nice to know that the decision makers were not letting their inventory of material determine what is allowed and what's not. Who knows!

The T class joined/recruited the F18 class to ban the cuben fiber cloth because it was 4 x more expensive, short lived and had limited availability (unfair). It was a quick decision made by the F18 and T class and perhaps not well thought out. Does this reinforcing material come close to the impact of the Cuben fiber cloth on the game.

Quote
I have seen the patches in question. By definition they are primary. In practice hopelessly light and I would expect the sail to last 1 regatta at best.

Going forward... would the class not allow this material?

Dynema traps are a good example of how in a controlled development class... the rules lag the reality on the water.
A rule that distorts the market and does not serve the game is a bad rule.

The Nacra 20 guys are trying to form a new set of class rules and obviously would like to learn from this FUBAR

Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/02/11 11:16 PM

I have seen the patches in question. By definition they are primary. In practice hopelessly light and I would expect the sail to last 1 regatta at best.

On top of this I can add that the same cloth is made with a technora yarn. I promise that there is no way that you can tell the difference between the poly and technora yarn. So you have to take the manufacturers word for it. But we don't have to cause it's not on the list. The ****s illeagle.

I've already pointed out that there is no loop hole. The class rules a backed up by the rock solid ISAF rules. You may think you've discovered a loop hole but you haven't. You think this sort of stuff hasn't been thought about before your wrong.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 12:17 AM

Mark,

The class doesn't have to ban this material. If it's not on the list, you can't use it simple.

IMO the fact that someone would actually use this stuff as patch material is laughable. It would never be considered by the council which is full of reputable sailmakers.
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 02:11 AM

I think it's been said already, but when is this going to get its own thread already???

Also, I must have missed something here. I thought it was previously discussed that there was NO protest at the Worlds, but an inquiry of the Technical Committee (the authority of which I couldn't find in the NOR or class rules).

What am I missing?

Mike
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 02:19 AM

Alot of info here http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/08/f18-info-on-si-sails-issue.html

Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 02:28 AM

Thanks Rich, I missed that earlier.

Certainly a pickle, looks like everyone was stuck with no good options.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 05:08 AM

great reference, thanks

Mike, Anyone,

Why would you ask the RO (PRO?) to file the protest and not throw it back to the class member who raised the issue/inquiry and let him choose to file the protest?

Is this the proper role of the PRO to file the protest at the behest of the Class Pres?
Could the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?
Should the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?

Would a protest from a competitor in the regatta been judged differently then a protest coming from the RO (PRO)/ Class Pres?

Quote
The IJ judging the sailors being not guilty, and taking no penalty accordingly as it would have invalid all the RC work of the whole week as mentioned in their arguments.


Do you have any idea what they meant?
Is this basically saying, This is a stupid rule with a stupid violation and we are not tossing anyone on the last day of the worlds. (Ha... the sailing equivalent of jury nullification.)

It sure sounds like the fact that the late hour of the protest was an important factor in tossing the protest. If this issue is bubbling along since 2009!!!! you have to wonder why the crisis hits on the last day of the worlds!

Inquiring minds would ask to see some class document xxx is denied addition to the list because yyy. If the class stands by saying nothing and so xx material just does not appear on the list ... well that is really smelly. How many other material requests were sat on? Who's request were acted on?

Mike, I think the procedure I would have chosen would have been to toss this back to the sailor and let him judge for himself whether to proceed with the protest. The class could then deal with the issue after the regatta. why the rush... it's only taken em since 2009. I can see why the jury went the way it did.

What a mess! Since 2009 ?????
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 05:19 AM

Mark

I took that line to meen that the sailors themselves were not at fault and there for no action was taken against them.( I don't know what RC meens "Racing Competion?") Don't throw out 4 days of sailing on the last day because of a outside infraction.

Guess there could be an argument that the inquiry should have been made at an earlier time. Did you know there was a problem and ignore it till you would most benifit from the protest.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aido
I have seen the patches in question. By definition they are primary. In practice hopelessly light and I would expect the sail to last 1 regatta at best.


You better go check the photos and then the ISAF drawing of patching, because the SI sails for sure have the .75mil PSA in the position ISAF describe as secondary reinforcement.

Its not on the list for sure, but is it making those sails much faster? any faster? any difference at all?

As for longevity and weight of sails: its perfectly legal to build a mainsail from Apen 6 1.5 mil, how long will that last as a mainsail? Is that a good thing for the class to have?
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 07:09 AM

Well there you go macca you were right about one thing. How does it feel???

Might not make the sails faster, but it certainly makes them lighter. And whatever you say the cloth is not legal.

Why are you defending these guys? If someone had had the balls to protest them they would have lost. Clearly the f18 council agrees.
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 07:39 AM

Feels awesome!! smile

But seriously, the issue as I have said all along is not whether the stuff was legal or not, its more about the way it was handled.

If someone had (as you say: the balls, I say the gall) to protest the entire fleet for violation of the batten pocket rule, trap line rule or one of several other areas that are outside the rules then what would have been the resulting situation at a worlds? a big waste of time and money for everyone...

Certainly the piece of sticky cloth on a sail has less performance impact than dyneema trap lines compared to wire ones. But nobody bitched about it, and the worlds were run and won without anyone feeling they lost because they complied with the rules and used wire whilst the winners had dyneema.
Posted By: Aido

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 08:46 AM

My apologies for having a go at you Macca. I guess i live in a fantasy world were everybody is expected to do the right thing.

I agree that the Dyneema trap lines are probably a bigger issue. The class really needs to be brought back into line. Some How.
Posted By: F18arg

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 10:18 AM

"RC" Is Race Committee "RO" Race Officer

Here the original report from the PRO:
http://twitpic.com/5n157l
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 01:57 PM

Do they make up the procedures as they go or am I not reading the proper rule books?

So, the PC/ IJ was informed of an issue by way of the Inquiry which was addressed to all of the official bodies running the regatta.

(So is an Inquiry a protest that requires some action by the IJ) What is an Inquiry to an International Jury... Is that even an official process that requires a response?

A report comes back from the RC and authored by the PRO. Which says we were informed by the TC and the Class Pres that there were some problems after all of the paperwork was approved and accepted BEFORE the regatta on the water started.

They don't seem to file a protest in this document... There are no protested parties! Rather, they jump to their own judgment which says.... never mind. not wasting our time. A protest should have been filed after the first day on the water on equipment issues.

If anything, the RC was asked to file a protest against a part of themselves, the Measurement team of the RC. They don't seem to do that. They certainly don't protest any boats in the regatta.

So, the IJ then does something... The initial reports say they ruled on the protest, That was refined to ... they ruled on the inquiry. Now you have to ask... what did they rule on?
The opinion of the RC and the PRO?

I am still trying to understand if they ruled on anything...
It sounds more like they just agreed with the RC/PRO that nothing should be done.

What would have happened had Niewhouse filed a protest against a single boat?

Could all of the rules violations been protested one by one in a huge game of "screw you too"!
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Mike, Anyone,

Why would you ask the RO (PRO?) to file the protest and not throw it back to the class member who raised the issue/inquiry and let him choose to file the protest?

Is this the proper role of the PRO to file the protest at the behest of the Class Pres?
Could the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?
Should the PRO have told the Class President to pound sand?


Mark, it is spelled out here, with applicable rules even being cited: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/08/f18-info-on-si-sails-issue.html

Here are the RRS references (you seem to have lost your book?)…

Last sentence of RRS 60.2:

However, when the race committee receives a report required by rule 43.1(c) or 78.3, it shall protest the boat.

(43.1 is in regard to clothing and weight, and does not apply here.)

78.3 When an equipment inspector or a measurer for an event decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules, he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.


So, when the report came from the measurer (on Thursday), the RC was required to protest. Note, this is the ONLY rule in the book that requires an RC to protest.

To answer any of your other questions would take a lot of speculation on my part, and I don’t think that would help the situation at all.

From where I sit (and having seen some rather unpleasant protests and redress hearings involving IJs at major events), this type of stuff puts everyone in a pickle and there are rarely “good” answers.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 06:14 PM

Mike,
Yes... I am re reading those parts of the rules this AM.

So what is this Inquiry mechanism.... it's not a protest and is that in the rules someplace

Second question
rule 78.3 is found under entry and qualification.
Does that constrain the IJ 's scope of decisions on equipment protests in time because of the section. The RC seems to imply that this timing factor is a reason to do nothing.

Is a competitor who is making an equipment protest (not inquiry) going to be held to a different or same standard then the RC protest? IE... I discover on the last day that the guys ahead of me are in technical violation of some equipment rule. Did my window of opportunity also close because of the Entry and Qualification section.

I don't get the timing issue... For instance, The Pan Am Games Hobie 16 protest on the next to last day was raised by a competitor and upheld with the sailors being tossed.

What is the difference? Just the judgment of the IJ as to the practical effect of the violation?

Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 07:06 PM

Mark, you're asking questions that I cannot answer because I was not there.

As far as I know, a sailor can initiate an equipment protest at any time.

I think an inquiry can be as simple as someone walking up and asking a question. The word does not exist in RRS. Perhaps the SIs?

This situation was basically caused by the measurers originally missing the breach when they certified the boats during registration. The fact that they discussed it amongst themselves on Monday, rather than file a report with the RC (who would then have protested on Monday), only compounded things.

Speculation: More than likely, they took it upon themselves (perhaps with some discussion with the RO or IJ, who knows?), to trust that the sailors in question were not intentionally cheating, and hoped the whole thing would go away and not taint the event.

This was further compounded by the timing of the inquiry from a sailor (on Thursday), which was unfortunate, to say the least, because it left no good options.

For a moment, put yourself in the position of the RO or IJ...

I would say that no one really wants to toss a boat at the end of a regatta, unless the violation is so blatant that a major performance advantage is gained, and/or sportsmanship is in question.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 08:16 PM

I think the jury did the right thing... just toss the whole mess back to the class to clean up.

My question is about the rules... Since the equipment rule is in the section on ENTRY and Qualifications. Does this mean anything with respect to the timing of a protest?

I was also under the impression that you could file your protest at any time (but within a reasonable time from when you discover the violation). So my understanding would be that just because the rule is organized in the entry and qualification section that this does not impose any time constraints.

It looks to me that the jury said... Hey you get one opportunity to take a bite of the apple.... Since you discussed this on Monday and did nothing official, ie. no protest filed... You (the class and technical Committee) can't come back on Thursday and say please... may I take my bite of the apple now!

Now had Niewhouse filed the protest (not an inquiry???), the jury might have decided differently if they "believed" that he just discovered the violations (a hem).

I am very cynical about this tempest in a tea cup... none of these guys are babes in the woods...they know how to play these rules like a fiddle... The max upset was generated just this way. (Who would have cared if some equipment was tossed in the measurement stage... chances are the sailors would have gotten a street legal sail before the first race). However, had the class started down this hunt for technical rules violations at the measurement stage, Pandora's box would be opened and I suspect the "screw you to" blizzard would have sunk the whole regatta.

It sure looks like a well done smack down over an issue that has bubbled along for 2 years.
What a mess!


Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 08:28 PM

All rules are fair game at any time. If you discover that someone lied about their entry (say they were bragging at a mid-event party that they weren't a member of the required class), you can protest at any time during the event.

Obviously, it would look best for you to protest immediately upon learning of the infraction. But sometimes, people are warned and given a chance to make a correction. If they choose to continue to break the rule after being warned, they should be protested.

Having said all of that, I think there is another way to look at this whole thing. It could very well be that the sail material concern was well known in advance, and the OA, PC and IJ decided the rule infraction wasn't a major issue, and they weren't going to let it become one during the event.

The timing of events makes much more sense under this train of thought, no?

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 09:16 PM

Quote
Having said all of that, I think there is another way to look at this whole thing. It could very well be that the sail material concern was well known in advance, and the OA, PC and IJ decided the rule infraction wasn't a major issue, and they weren't going to let it become one during the event.

The timing of events makes much more sense under this train of thought, no?


Driving the issue on the next to last day of the worlds....? No... I think somebody wanted the story.

But... I learned a lesson here... If you have an equipment issue with someone (loft)... You can't wait till the last day and toss the stink bomb. And, if I am on a jury... I would want to know when you ID'd the issue and what steps did you take after that. Waiting till the end to throw the bombs is not acceptable. Smart juries see that and use their judgment.

A friend was in an equipment protest years and years ago... He used his 18 wings in a Hobie 18 class race...(He thought he had everyone's agreement and it was hardly a secret that he had wings) At the end of the weekend he was protested and DSQ'd and the protestor moved up the scoresheet.... Pissed him off for years...

Bottom line... the context matters with these equipment protests. Just because the equipment rule has been violated does not give people swords to whack someone at the end of the regatta. Smart juries are needed when people want to be idiots.

Nothing good comes from these last minute BS things.
Posted By: brucat

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 10:16 PM

"Driving the issue on the next to last day of the worlds....? No... I think somebody wanted the story.


You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Call it a conspiracy, or whatever, but it's entirely possible that this was well throught through so that the issue gets cleared up without hurting anyone at the regatta.

Sometimes class rules need a jolt to be changed. You don't want that jolt to be too painful to the sailors.

Mike
Posted By: macca

Re: sail material control - 08/03/11 10:32 PM

The action at the worlds was intended to create maximum carnage.
Posted By: new2sailin2

Re: sail material control - 08/04/11 02:05 AM

The blatant class rules disregard by this class is joke. Maybe people remember the f18 worlds back in Australia. Mitch Booth filed a measurement protest prior to the racing started so boats could be made legal (the removal of the jib furler from memory on the blogs). The jury consisted of the chairman who was a former ISAF VP who was also a former chairman of the ISAF centreboard committee. Also on the jury was the f18 executive secretary. In the jury room f18 ES said that the class had made the rule change at their AGM but had not submitted the rule change to ISAF. That was 3 months to write to ISAF and they didn’t do it. Only some of the competitors knew about the rule change. The jury ruled he protest invalid (no grounds every made why) and said the boats could race. They also said if they enforced the rule then 50% of the boats would have been DSQ as there was not enough fulrers to buy.

Sorry but the way the f18 class handle their class rules is disgraceful. ISAF is too gutless to do anything and the sailors just take it.
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