F20na Box Rule Set Posted

All
I've posted the F20na Box Rule Set on the F20 Forum. Check it out and get your 20's ready to race. Its a new dawn for the big boats. Read the Box Rule and lets have some discussion.

CC

I thought the discussion we have been having for the last couple of years has been about sail development and reviving the N20 class.

What the N20 class needs is an immunization shot in the arm, not a gun shot to the head.

320#?? no minimum crew weight?? are you kidding?? That box rule is the eulogy for the N20.

The idea 5 to 10 years ago was to create a formula that could support a race circuit with H20's, N6.0's N20's and Mystere 6.0's at the foundation. The lower weight would drive development over time... Now, The only race boats that really survive in any numbers from that era are the N20's. The world has changed.. the development nature of the rule formula will fail in 2011 with the new wide carbon 20's on the market. I would narrow the focus of the rule.

The bottom line as I see it. ... you are trying to revive a class that would be somewhat like the F18's.. (8.5 beam = user friendly) but with a hull shape and power for crews... 380 and up. (Set the min crew weight to the level you need)

The state of the art niche is now owned by the N20c and the other carbon boats. A narrow boat will never be as efficient at 20 feet. You simply can't compete.

I would suggest an open sailmaker rule so that existing N20 owners can purchase what sails they want so long as they measure into the existing sail plan.

If you want to include some development (to keep things interesting over time)... lower the boat weight by 20 lbs to 400 lbs and allow new foils and any mast of the same dimensions as the alu and existing carbon sticks.

If the market for this boat.. ie teams 360 and up exists and thrives.. ... the F18 builders could just blow up their F18 hull shape to the 20 size (just like the origin of the N20). The class would then grow like the F18's with demand calling forth new designs.

A conservative approach would be to do the sailmaker changes in year one.... Race your circuit. Measure the adoption of the new sailmakers at the end. Re poll the fleet if they want changes in foils.

the discussion over the last years has been all over the map with no action. protecting a single platform is myopic and doomed to fail and there are far too many examples of this. This class is aimed at ALL of the 20 foot boats and those to come. The F20c is a wide beam boat that will not likely be accepted by the masses for both the convenience factor and the sheer cost of the new animal. This class will continue to produce boats that are cheaper and easier to transport, etc. This box rule significantly increases the value of the N20s until a better platform comes along. All formula classes have evolution at their very heart. This class is no different except there is much more latitude to develop. The N20 has many good years ahead of it. No one is rushing to build an F20na to the limits of its specs as far as i know but i promise you i'll be looking for it.

Wow!!! Shades of Carl R

Good luck with your vision...
No matter what... kudo's for taking a step.

i've never met him but Carl is my hero!!!

There have been several of us working on this for the past 3 or 4 weeks.
We have put the min boat weight at 320 because there is no reason with the carbon technology that we have today for any 20 foot cat to weigh 400 pounds. There are lots of places weight can be cut. I intend to make carbon rudders and daggers for my 20. Also I will be splicing spectra traps. I think with just these small changes our n20 will be down to around 380-390 pounds.
As far as crew weight goes light is not always better. I’ll use myself as an example. When Joe and I sailed together we did just fine at a weight of 460. If we had been light on all those windy days we would have lost our butts. I think most crew weights will stay the same.
I would like to see the F20NA class grow to be like the F18 class. Who cares who makes the sails, mast or any other part of the boat. I would like to see people build their own carbon 20 foot cat under these rules.
I think that the Nacra 20 will remain the boat to beat for years to come!!! With the box rule everyone will have the same size sails but will be free to play with sail cut/design.
I believe that with the adoption of this class we will see more 20 foot cats on the starting line. At any given regatta there are 5 or 6 Nacra20’s on the starting line. With this class I hope to see 20 or 30 boats.
Trust me, we know that there will be lots of questions. Please feel free to email me and ask anything you like. (Charlie Trinque) sailerpt@gmail.com

So... you think that a carbon 20 at 8'6 inches wide that weighs 100 lbs less then a N20 will be a fair race even up?

This kind of racing will keep the rank and file N20' owners showing up for the regional schedule and buying sails??

A set of F18 beams and a new tramp will convert a New Nacra 20C into your formula boat.... Will you race that misbegotten beast even up with your N20?.. (Can we arrange a small wager)

I had the pleasure of sailing a Tybee500 with Carl at the helm. It was one of my most memorable Tybee's. We conversed little but raced hard. It was cool in it's own way.

I think there is an opportunity here for the 20 but the width of the "niche" that this boat fits in the current market is not really defined. It's going to take some real vision to keep the boat class popular and active. There are some real conflicts showing in the opinions of the direction of the class (but this is a good start toward something for sure).

Having been a Nacra 6.0 owner/sailor, N20 owner/sailor and F18 owner/sailor, there are some takeaways I think we can learn from history. There are a few key factors to look at when developing this rule and a couple of teetering points that need to be decided:

1) Is the point to help the N20 survive or create a new formula class? Creating a new formula class will take an incredible amount of energy and dedication of a few people who can work the political strings and interest of the manufacturers and build interest within the sailors. Building a formula rule can be kind'a a chicken (manufacturers) or egg (sailors) situation - but you can't rely on it to be born from either one. You have to be the dog who doesn't care about chickens or eggs other than the fact they both taste great. Shear enthusiasm and influence on a large scale are required make it happen. To make the 20 "survive" is a completely different issue and I believe to two goals are mutually exclusive...you can't have both.

2) new boats. Without people buying new boats, the class is on a path to death. period. end of story. The Nacra 20 has an issue with the cost of boats, cost of replacement parts, and people willing to invest in the class. Until this is dealt with, sustaining or growing the class will not be possible. A formula rule with other manufacturers may help but you have to have the faith of the manufacturers and the sailors simultaneously to make it happen. Without support from both it won't happen formula style.

If the point is to make the Nacra 20 survive in it's current form, cost has to be dealt with, the rules need to be defined, an organizing body in place, and most importantly the needs and wishes of people with the means to purchase new boats need to be figured out and catered to.

If the idea is to honestly start a formula 20 class, I would consult with some of the founders of F18 in Europe and find the guys that started the F20 thing several years ago in Europe (and Carl) and sap them for every bit of insight and wisdom regarding how to get started (those folks are actually pretty accessible).

The Nacra20 is just a good starting point for this class. I don't think you will see people building boats to this formula spec for years. But over time yes people will build new boats. And I don't see a reason to have 400 pound boats. The nacra20 is an awesome boat and I love mine, but at the same time I see the numbers of n20's out there dropping off. Unless we all want to spend 35k on an f20c or move to 18 foot boats then we need an f20na class. I believe it will also keep the n20 alive for a few more years.

Mark
The inter20 was designed and built BEFORE the inter 18

I don't think so. My understanding was that Nacra built the M and M designed inter 18 for the EU for the F18 class that was just starting to grow in popularity (Dart Hawks and Hobie Tigers). They then decided to sell the boat in the USA but the small sailplan was just boring ... So.. just like they souped up the Nacra 6.o to the 6.0 NA to trump the 5.8... they added the Omohundro carbon stick and tried to spice the boat up to convince the Nacra 5.8 NA sailors to flip. This did not work. (Why go smaller) As the story goes... Larry Hartack took a sawsall to the inter 18 bows... added two feet and bingo... the MandM design was now the Nacra Inter20 and the first production cat with a carbon mast. The US market went for the Nacra Inter20 and passed on the F18. Eventually Hobie figured out a way to sell boats without comptips in NA and started selling the Tiger... Nacra followed with the F18 and they grandfathered the small number of inter 18's with carbon sticks into the dealer created NAF18 class. Eventually that organization reformed to be fully compliant with the internationl F18 class.

The first F20na event is scheduled to take place at Juana's Good Time Regatta September 10-11, 2011.

More regattas are in the work for this fall. Stay tuned and dust off your 20's and come out to support something at its grass roots.

Many people look at a new initiative and start shooting holes in it. Look years down the road and realize it for what an amazing class it can be.

What's it rate?

Just curious but what the difference among ideal crew weights for the F18, N20, and F20-Carbon?

rhetorical question huh? i'll bite. We need to start racing before we can get a rating. The F20na is late to the party but i think there is plenty of food and we'll bring a fresh keg to keep everyone happy.

It was not rhetorical. If you want to be scored and you want to run a different configuration than what the N20 OD is rated you'll need to get a provisional number from the DPN committee or apply all the applicable mods, if there isn't a mod for what you want to do then you aint legal. Now if the F20na isn't going to be scored with the other party goers and all the N20's in attendance are cool with it then go nuts...

As far as data points go only bouy races are used by DPN.

Your class rules as published will make it difficult to get a PN rating as a group of boats... eg the F20NA class. You will be forced to calculate each boat individually because your class rule says min boat weight 320... which would lower your rating in PN, Texel or SCHRS and the owners would think this unfair since their boat actually weighs 420.

So that would force you to use the tables individually which is a PIA for all concerned.

You can create any class you want for the PN tables Historically boats like the CFR 20 and Poison Oak were one offs that had a rating in the table and so you can create a class for min boat weight of 390 and sail area equal to the existing N20 and create a descriptive name and go for it.. That would swallow all of the N20s and any of the customized N20's in the race. The provisional number would be phrfd to be a bit faster then the current N20. All you should need is the basic measurement limits and a letter requesting a provisional rating. Should take a week or so. sailors register and say they comply with the PN rating rule.

Alternatively, race under SHCRS or TEXEL and use the calculators to get your individual rating. Until the boat changes weight... all the N20 look a likes would rate the same.

Very interesting and largely productive comments and suggestions. "Provisionally", until we get a rating, I think that Portsmouth adjustments can deal with most of the issues for the Juannas Regatta or other mixed regattas. While not ideal, the goal is to give the power back to the sailors rather than SMOD especially given the great varieties even within what is considered a one design class. The idea in using an overall sail area will hopefully permit the sailors and builders to experiment with different configurations and designs to improve the 20' platform whether it is an N20, N6.0 or other grandfathered platforms. I have no doubt that it will be easy to shoot holes into this initial plan. Understandd however that we are aiming for an Open Class that can harbour innovation. While every boat may not be equal (some being more equal than others), each boat has the opportunity to be equal.

Keep you constructive suggestions coming.

Thanks,

Ken Altman
Commodore Ocean Springs Yacht Club
"Kani Basami" N20
"Baby B" Hobie Wave

This statement of your intention makes the most sense after looking at your rules.

I suggest you change the name from Formula 20,, to Open 20 or Development 20, or Level rated 20.

In the cat world... Formula has been defined by the Formula 18 class. The term Formula references a fairly tight set of rules (if not an actual formula) and does not quite match your intention (Open Class?) in my opinion. Just one of those suggestions....

(I also think you should try an interim entry in the PN tables... It makes life A Lot easier for scorekeepers using wind speed ratings.)

Thanks for forging ahead with this. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the no min. weight. If the class is going top be called F20na ,then conditions all around north America need to be taken into account. The lighter air in the mid to Southern East Coast( Not Florida Tradewinds) opens the door for lightweight teams to clean house . This will not propagate any class. A minimum weight with no barrier on weight (lead) carried to come up to minimum is the way I see to handle it. I've heard the weight doesn't matter story for too long, and honestly, Charlie your the first non pixie weight person I've seen say it. Depowering and lessening drag is never a handicap to a lightweight team. Look how Randy Smyth and Keith Notary did in the Worrell years ago. You never see skippers looking for big crews.
Just my 2 cents on one small point. I'm very happy y'all have picked up the ball on this.
Todd

My bad. that's what i get for reading into a question. point taken and is obviously very important. The best answer to your question is that we don't have one yet. the discussion is very helpful in getting there. I apologize for the smarta$$ reply.

joe

I think you guys will do fine, good luck to you. And I wouldn't worry too much about a rating, nobody trusts or agrees with them anyway.

Well we will be getting a provisional rating up soon. Everything seems to be coming together well. Thx everyone for all your thoughts. That’s what we need to make this work right!! Keep them coming

"Well we will be getting a provisional rating up soon."

Be prepared to defend it!

... I'll make popcorn.

Pete, as Mark indicated it's a pretty straight forward process to get a provisional number and I'm sure it will work the same as when the F20c number was created. The F20na class will also provide the spec to the DPN committee so it will be known to all what is being rated and what isn't.

For the short term they probably don't even need a provisional number. As long as the custom sails are the same sail area as the stock sails it's only a .995 hit which is pretty small.

Uhhhhh....Phillip. Suggestions please not just rhetoric. What do you recommend as minimum crew weight and minimum boat weight. They are important considerations as I understand it for the class to get a provisional rating.

K

I've yet to see any number accepted without controversy and find the discussion useful and entertaining.

Butter?

I still think you're going to be disappointed.

Schurr Sails has been conducting specific research on higher aspect mains, and PBYC, as well as FWYC has race data for buoy and distance racing for the past years, since Mark aired out the first iteration.

Charlie - collect the data. If you go with mods you might discover that MS would benefit by using the sail mod and his weight mod.

You and Holly Keep it Rollin!
Aloha B

Our sails will be dropped off on Monday at Schurr sails. Hunter wants to do sum measurements/research on our sail set.

Ding, you and Pete need your own little TV sitcom. jp

Point taken.

intermission.

you don't need no stinkin DPN / PHRF number. They'll be so many boats showing up they can have their own class and go head to head...

Jay,
You fixing to by another boat?

Forrest

While the class needs a #, I thought the idea was to sail boat for boat in a class, right?

If people have to still use mods to a PN #, I'm NOT buying an I20 I've got my eyes on.

Have fun with this. I'll be racing open class before this rule.

Why didn't you open a thread in the 20 forum for discussion instead of claiming to be god? The rule set you are proposing lacks vision. There are already plenty of classes with 8'6" beams. The top technology 20' boats (Marstrom, Nacra 20C, Tornados) are all going to wider beams. I don't forsee any of those moving to an 8' 6" beam. Anyone who has sailed a wider boat knows "Wider is Better". I would consider cutting my boat down to 10' but never 8' 6". You might as well race F18 at that width. Count me out, I will stick with open class.

The number would only be used in open class sailing. Most of the racing done is still DPN racing.

F20na would all be sailing head to head.

Get that N20 and update the sails or simply sail it as is. It conforms to F20na already.

You are not G-d? You are a catamaran sailor, and a captain.

Short answer: yes. Long answer:
(1) place to put it (problem)
(2) reasonable price (check)
(3) permission from momma (pending)

I still would like to discuss whether we need to consider the minimum weight issue and the minimum crew weight issue.

Also, I personally like the idea of opening the class to innovation. For instance, if you want carbon boards, go for it. If you would like to try to retrofit some bannana boards, make it happen.

While the sail plan is the launching point for this class, making it an Open class should drive interest and development.

Ken Altman
Commodore OSYC
"Kani Basami" N20

Well there was some good work done this week as far as sail measurements go. Kevin Rajida and hunter from schurr sails get all the credit for this. Kevin and hunter have been working on getting all the data they can over the last few days.

Should we have a sail measuring party here at our club? Was thinking of doing this anyways, since one of our members will be contacting a local sail maker this week for a new sail...

The unraveling has begun...

How are you guys measuring the sails? There are a lot of different ways to skin that cat. The F18 rule is pretty detailed but works well to control the "creativity" some people seem to find with sail measurement systems. Be glad to help with some insight.

Are you going to post the measurements somewhere for all to see and use or is this just a Schurr thing?

They seem to want a lot of development. 320 lb boat weight and a max sail area of xxx for the sail plan.

I would think any standard method used by sail makers would work.

I would love to hear how the sailmakers will manage the super stiff telephone pole that is the N20 carbon stick. Can you get the range needed without pulling the sail apart in a year.

Perhaps one of the load path sail cloths could let you bend the mast enough.

If you guys get any measurements on the bend of the sticks... it would be interesting to compare with the alu N20 stick and the F18HT riba sticks or the Tornado carbon stick.

Always looking to learn something.

Nice! Couldn't you guys just borrow someone elses system and plug in your own numbers?

We (Hunter Riddle and I) have been using the F16 documents to measure the sails. This was what Hunter used when he and Mark Smith started developing new sails. As we get the rules for the new class firmed up we will post the measurement system. The idea is not to have to measure every sail but to give sailmakers the ability to measure and mark sails with the size. I will also publish what we find measuring existing EP sails as well as the one's Hunter has built. I have measurements for the Europe sails that Charlie Trinque has as well as several sets from the 1000 series (Alter Cup boats from 2006). Hope to get hold of an older one that Charlie Harp has soon (USA496) just for comparison.

Kevin, do not forget to include the mast in the sail area measurements. Since Charlie has the wing mast and everyone else has the carbon stick it makes a significant difference.

Dave

Knew that, going by his house this afternoon if it isn't raining to measure the stick. Gonna stop at PYC to measure a carbon one that is on a trailer next day or 2.

Kevin

Make sure you understand the spinaker measurement. You could end up altering a perfectly good spin. Don't ask...

Speaking of width and light weight... CFR20 is 8'6".

Narrower "can" be fast. A 10' set of beams has been talked about, however.

Kevin:

If you need to remeasure my main (#483) or my new Schurr sail, I am available at your leasure. Thanks for being an important part of this process!!!!

Also, as Captain Cardiac has indicated....the insane 20 Caballa has taken everyone's advice and are in the process of updating Version 1 of the Class Rules including the appropriate change from F20 to O20. Climb on board folks, the train is about to leave the station. Please keep your productive ideas coming (excluding any "you suck" or similar ones). I am hopeful that this class can invigorate the 20 platform.

Love,

Ken
"Kani Basami" N20

I see one small problem.
The only boat that fits is the N20. Would you race an older design (Nacra 6.0, mystere 6.0 etc)even up with an N20? You set the rules so the N20 is the scratch boat. Open up the beam width to 10' so all the 20s can play. But then you will no longer be the scratch boat.

What about the Hobie Fox? Maybe with a new rig and foils it could be very competitive against the N20s?

The same reason as the other older 20 somethings. By the time you spend the money on new rig and foils it would be less expensive to sell the boat and buy and a N20.

That's called B class(as in A,B,C,D) Tornado dominated it into non-existence. No reason to re-invent the wheel.

I also find it interesting that the name was changed to OPEN when it eliminates the recent boats in the higher performance range. If you are going to create another F18 class that is two feet longer, you should leave it as F20. There is already an open class. If indeed you are trying to set a more open class at least set the width to the Nacra F20 Carbon. I am sure Nacra did a lot of research and found the 10'6" beam to be the best choice for a 20' boat.

Hi Tawd, I can find a lot of info on the A & C Classes but I can't find the specs on the International B class catamaran. Does the Tornado still fit the rules. No since in recreating a class that already exhists, just give it new life. I still think they should change their effort back to F20.

The B class was what the tornado was built for. It then dominated the class so well that it became almost a one design from the box rule. That's why you don't hear much about it.
Any 20' x8'6" boat can comptete in what they are trying to create with F-20 or o20 , or whatever. Just because the N-20 is the newest boat relegated to the DBS it doesn't mean other boats couldn't also have a fighting chance. Hobie 20s, nacra6.0, etc
Personally I think the baby got thrown out with the bathwater by changing weights and making no min crew weights.
All that needed to be done was to open up the sails and soft goods to any sail loft while keeping the area of the sails the same.No messing with the hulls and foils.
Todd

Todd,
I think the tornado's new sail plan takes it out of B Class. But then the tornado sport is only rated marginally faster than the N20(and that is with the best sailors in the world setting the rating) making them pretty equal boats. It's not the beam it's the entire package.
What makes the F18 class work well is that most boats are within a narrow performance window. With what you are proposing the boats would be all over the place. If you want even class racing you have to have an even class of boats. No matter what you do to an H20 you are not going to get it to compete with an equally equipped N20. The hull designs are on a different level.

Jeff is spot on with the H20 and N20... totally different animals.

Oh BTW, I got on an N20 last weekend and did a bit of double trapped spin reaching...F!@# ME! that boat is made for that sh!t, I'd forget what a hoot it is. Next time one of you guys start bitching about an F18 sticking to you on a tight spin reach you are so going to get a boot squarely in the nuts! Do some double trapped spin reaching on an F18 and then tell me which one you'd rather be on. He!!, you're number should be dropped just on principle!

Disclaimer: Just poking a little fun don't get too spun up. Besides I'm really just talking to THart.

The N20 rating was set when Smyth was racing it. And yes, the beam has a huge part in it. In light air, the boats are pretty close but when it picks up past 8knots, the T is much faster.

Lee, Randy never did any serious time on the N20, Struble is the same story. Struble drove for W.F. Oliver in the beginning and quickly moved on. I doubt their presence had any significant impact on the number. It would have been the likes of Shafer, Pitt, Wallace/James, Newkirk, Casey and possibly some MidWest teams that would have had the biggest impact on the number. Great sailors but mortals and beatable if you wanted it bad enough.

Reminder: Only open buoy racing data with wind speed is used to adjust the number for DPN.

The T sport is only faster over 8knts if the crew weight is under 310. Sail the T at the same min weight at the N20 and you need to get over 12 for it to be competetive. My T has a tappered alum mast and I am not sure how much more power you get out of the carbon T stick. We sail our's at 365(crew weight) and going to weather I need 14+ to double trap. Anything less am I am footing way to much.

Then I think you must be doing something wrong on the setup. At light winds, the T is actually a little slower than N20's...less sail area and centerboards not giving sufficient lift). Once the modern T starts lifting a hull (~8-10 kts), it will beat a similar skilled team on the N20 around the buoys. Beyond 12-14 kts the N20 (like most 8'6" boats) is trying to depower..while the T is just beginning to think of inching on some downhaul. The wind speed adjusted Portsmouth numbers support this as does my real world experience racing loads of N20's.

The T class does quite well with no minimum crew weight since the sails can be tweaked within the measurements to tune in more or less power for a teams weight & expected wind range. This makes for a more mix body types across the fleet. Mitch Booth is a big boy and does extremely well on average. As do the lightweights.

I unequivocally second that notion. While the F18 might be able to run the kite higher and faster, it is a tedious ride to keep speed in wind and waves when cracked off from a pure upwind or downwind angle. What you may think is a smile from the F18 sailors as they go by is probably more like a grimace as they fight the constant pitching momentum. You are either too far forward or too far back and the big square head carries the top of the rig forward hard and it's hard to take it out of the equation on those angles. The 20 is a comfort machine when cracked off either on a deep jib or tight spin reach. A simple sail change to flatten out the 20 would make it a comfort and speed demon in those conditions.

Just to be clear I'm not proposing any of this. All I wanted was to open the sailmakers while keeping the overall dimensions the same. That's been my Gospel for 3or 4 years now.

I fully agree with Todd that the best way to keep the class alive at this point is to have a set of overall sail measurements (same format as F18) and open building up to those set of measurements. Buy from your favorite loft. Works perfectly fine in F18/F16 classes. I also don't see this destroying the class-you aren't proposing adding a 3rd sail etc. as has been done in the past (before I ever started sailing, and yes I can read history), your current N20 sails are still regatta legal and probably pretty fast while the Tybee/GT300 etc. guys can buy the sails they feel are cut best for the type of sailing they do (100nm on a beam or close reach).

As far as double trap reaching on the N20, I quickly formed my own opinion that mirrors Jake's and Davids. I've out-climbed and gone faster than a decently sailed F18 on the N20, both boats double trapped spin reaching, and I'm by no means as good as most of the people in this thread. Maybe N20 skippers are just scared to drive hard from the wire with the spinnaker up?

Building a new class open to other boats probably isn't going to work. F20c>>N20>>N6.0 etc., racing all these boats under the F20 rule is not going to result in some sort of even one design racing. You'd need to build a set of rules and get manufacturers to build to those rules, not the other way around.

Keep talking.

All this N20 talk has got me still considering picking up one of the ones locally near me.

But my barometer is still leaning toward an F18, or even an F16.

BTW, any updates on where the new rule is going? F20 or N20 with open sailmaker?



Fine. You had better get on me harder next time...AND hit the spin pole just before I do next time to cushion it...