Father &son - help with cat purchase nacra 5.2/gcat 5 or ?

First time poster - great forum, read many nacra versus hobie etc. but still need advice on my specific circumstance.
My sailing experience: race an old Shearwater III with dad in the 1970s- 89s. Then windsurfer (the heavy ones - until end of 80s) then nothing.
Now start sailing with son (11 years old, 75 lbs) . I am (190lbs).
on heavier days: just me and son. Trapeze should be fun.
on medium/light - bring two sisters (11 and 14).
considering older Gcat 5, nacra 5.0 or nacra 5.2 or hobie 16 Like the idea of no centerboard, but not abosolute pre-requisite. All boats considered are vintage 1980 or so $2000 or so)
biggest issue: will we be able to right a nacra 5.2 or a hobie 16?
next issue: if I bring the three kids (about 240lbs + me (190lbs) would a hobie 16 hold us - what about the Gcat 5.0?
Any other advice?
one final question: which is faster - or is there a real difference between them?

Thanks in advance - my son is real eager to hear what we should get :-)

Hobie 18. The trampoline on a 16 is going to be a little small for that many people. The Hobie 18, while it does have daggerboards, is a tough boat and has an expansive trampoline for cruising with the kids. I started on a 5.2 and have owned a lot of different cats (mostly Nacras) - but for having fun off the beach with a bunch of people, I will probably always consider the Hobie 18 one of the best and most versatile platforms.

There are some things to watch out for on the Hobie 18s...hopefully someone else will chime in.

Thanks - I actually looked at those but was scared off by some posting where it appears that I would need two adults to hold it in fun weather. is that your experience? Would me (190lbs) and my son (75 lbs) be able to hold it in medium winds with gusts?

Norm, I've sailed most of the boats on your list and now race a Nacra 5.5 Uni.

Best bang for the buck, no boards and a bunch of fun with a boat load of kids...look for a Supercat 17. Tons of hull buoyancy and damn near impossible to tip...

Enjoy....http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7962376930575786798

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5hHI6CxxIE&feature=related


Sail fast, Tom G

location? there are a lot of boats that would be good choices

I agree with Jake 100%.

Coming out of monohulls my first cat was an old Hobie 18. I raced it with my 6 yr. old son. They are built like a tank, wide, stable, lots of volume in the hulls for more than 1 crew (I often sailed it with my 3 kids on it) and I often sailed it alone in 15-20 knots on my lake. (not out in the big ocean, that would be stupid)

Mine had a rolling jib which was nice when the big thunderstorms would come by with huge 30-40knot wind. I'd just roll up the jib, pull up the boards, let the traveler out and haul azz for my beach, drop the main and run for the house!

I only paid $750 for it (12 years ago), but it was sitting in a guys back yard for 5 years and needed some work, so I fixed it up, sailed it for two years and then sold it for $2,500 to get a "Racing Boat" (Nacra 5.5).

If you can find a good old TheMightyHobie18, you won't lose money and you will have a great time with all the kids on board. The Hobie 16 doesn't have a whole lot of volume in the hulls for more than 2 adults, or you and 2 kids, and is prone to pitch you over the handlebars when you get going fast downwind, so if you go that route, be careful and learn how to right it. I recomend Rick White's excellent book, "Catamaran Racing for the 90's" available on this web site in the store link above, it fully explains how to right a cat as well as lots of other great speed stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBvVedo9QU

Hey Rick, about time for a re-write of the book, yes? To include all the Formula Spinnaker classes and the new ideas coming out of the A cats. Maybe we can get Randy to write it?

prindle 18. no boards and plenty of hull volume.

The only reason i wouldn't really recommend a TheMightyHobie18 is they carry resale better than most cats and always seem to have fiberglass cracks around the front crossbar. That is unless you spend the extra change to buy a nice example or an ~88+ model, which are kinda uncommon.

a Nacra 5.7 would be a good choice as well. No boards and similar performance as TheMightyHobie18.

5.2 is what i have

and what i recommend

at least over a h16

thanks for all the response!

my location: I live in Pittsburgh and will be doing trailer sailing in lakes around here. But we'll spend quite a while in summer in Lake Ontario where I can leave the cat on the beach for a few weeks.

@Timbo: did you ever have to right it with your 6 yr old son? (or by yourself). I infer from your post that with the right technique I should be OK?
(I'm an expert at not capsizing since the Shearwater (all wood) could not be righted by sailing humans. But if I get a TheMightyHobie18 I'd love to sail near the edge which means we'll capsize sometimes.)

@Matt: Can you right the Prindle 18 (or the Nacra 5.7 for that matter) without an adult crew?

@eric: there are a few 5.2 available within driving distance here - thanks for the recommendation, will I be OK with 4 people (me+3 kids)?

Last point: has anybody knowledge of the G-cat 5.0: the double trampoline seems very attractive for nice day cruising with a bunch of kids or grand-parents...

we sail with 3 supercats 17's. one guy (who pushes it hard) capsizes about 2 dozen times a year... so i find that statment hard to agree with

I sail with Hans G, the owner/designer of G-cats. and he is 70 and is currently sailing a 31 year old 5.0. He beats the fleet often on it. Great boat... weight placement is very important on that boat and with the deck lids... you need to keep the bows out of the water or pitchy in real air.

My mistake, I was assuming a certain level of sailing competency. One guy out of three, 24 times in one season? I haven't gone over anywhere near that many in 30+ years.

TG

Also lok for a G-Cat 5.7 may be better for you and several crew.

I can right my P19 with ~310lbs and it is a bigger boat with a taller rig using the standard righting line. I usually sail with someone in the ~180lb range and i'm a lightweight @ ~130.

You *should* be able to right just about any 18ft boat you are looking at with 300lb of crew weight.

edit: so you and your son are around ~265, definitely on the light side for the larger boats. N5.2 or p16 would probably be better with that weight.

On heavier days: just me and son. Trapeze should be fun.

You are a little shy of ideal weight for the Hobie 16 (and others mentioned, I expect). Will probably take some time before you're ready for "heavy"....depending on how you define that.


will we be able to right a nacra 5.2 or a hobie 16?

You and son will be unlikely to right any of the the boats mentioned in all conditions without a righting aid (pole, bag, etc.) or assistance. The four of you....sure.


next issue: if I bring the three kids (about 240lbs + me (190lbs) would a hobie 16 hold us - what about the Gcat 5.0?

All boats mentioned will "hold" you, but none are going to perform well in the medium/light wind you propose.


which is faster - or is there a real difference between them?

You are unlikely to get any really good, unbiased answers to that here...especially mine! Check the Portsmouth handicap Tables at:
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Tables_2010/Multihull_Classes.htm.
Lower is "faster," but it all depends on how well the boat is sailed.


Any other advice?

Try to hook up with catsailors near you to gain some knowledge and experience before you buy. Give consideration to getting a boat that is popular in your area for help getting up the learning curve.

$1000 5.2 solo on a lake with jib

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j55lMDEBmP8

stronger winds without jib

http://vimeo.com/5075989

with 8yo crew

http://vimeo.com/5258062

with whole family

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ0WhsOR0Ds

I'm partial to the Hobie 18 and admit that I'm not too familiar with the Nacras and other brands. If you've already got sailing experience, it will be no different to learn on than a Hobie 16, actually probabaly a little easier because the likelyhood of pitchpoling is a lot lower. Also tacking is easier, and the roller furling jib provides a quick way to depower. The 18 is often described as the cadillac of beach cats because it's fast yet robust, relatively easy to sail, and can easily handle up to three adults - a great all around cat.

The cracks around the crossbars are an issue that really only pertains to boats built between 1984 and 1988. Also, the method for preventing and/or fixing them is pretty well established for boats built during that era, so I would not let that dissuade you.

As far as righting the boat, around 300lbs minimum is recommended for a Hobie 18. However, you can do it with less is you use a righting bag, pole, or other assisting device.


sm

I want to thank all of you for the advice. I was thinking hobie 18 or nacra 5.7 - but as was mentioned on another post - you often get what is available... I could not find hobie or nacra in good condition/price within driving distance.

The Supertcat 17 was appealing to me, buoyancy and clean tramp - and I found one which the owner assured me was in great condition 5 hours from here - so off I went. But when I got there, there was a hole in exposed fiberglass at the back of one transom, and the other transom had cracks at the joint between transom and hull - and it look deep and the transom was soft/springy. The sail had holes 2-4 inches long over every batten where the sail hits the stay (when letting it out). Funny what people will describe as "good condition". Oh well - my son and I had a good road trip at least out of it!

So in the end, I found a 1982 prindle 16 that was in extremely good conditions: no soft spots, no dings anywhere. a set of racing white sails in very good contition + the original main sail in almost new condition (appeared to have been stored when the boat was bought and almost never used). I also got beach wheels and a good condition trailer. Trampoline was 4 years old - but boat had been stored for two years (owner had moved on to larger boat).

I know 18 foot was more recommended - but I could not find one. Prindle 16 increased buoyancy over hobie should allow me to get at least two kids out at the time. In the end we reasoned this way: start with something in good condition and affordable - and if the family likes it - move to larger - and more money (maybe hobie 21 or supercat 20).

Again thanks to all for your info. going to lake Ontario tomorrow to try it out.

AWESOME! great cat, enjoy

+1 - First beachcat experiences were on a Prindle 16.

Excellent, consider it your gateway Cat...!

Sail fast, Tom G

Congratulations....the Prindle 16 is a great boat! Not sure what sailing a Shearwater III is like, but your windsurfing experience will help you greatly with handling a beachcat. I would highly recommend Rick White's (this site owner's) "Catamaran Racing for the 90's." Even if you have no current intention to race your P 16, the boat handling/tuning info in the first part of the book is invaluable.