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Nacra not righted

Posted By: DennisMe

Nacra not righted - 08/15/11 07:59 PM

Hi all, last wednesday I went out to test my new GPS (which is just a fancy name for my brother's old phone) and I was having a blast on my old Nacra 5.2. Hit over 30 Km/h as I blew past lots of monohulls, waving politely of course, exactly the kind of speed I had in mind.

After a while I sailed on looking for bigger winds and more speed when the bigger winds found me and put the boat on its side in a second. This happened even though I had released the main (which I had been hand holding) but before I got the jib down.

Luckily my exit was graceful and I never even got my feet wet. Not like the last time I tipped and ended up hanging upside down from my ankle (turtling the boat)...

Anyway, so far so good, I thought and started to loosen the jib sheet and pay out the tangled up mainsheet. I got my rigting line, tossed it over and walked out to the tip of the bow. It was then that I noticed that I could not get the boat angled into the wind, the best I could do was get the hulls pointing straight into the wind. This meant that I could almost get the boat righted three times. Almost that is, with the mast way up in the air I was already already looking for a spot to grab the dolphin striker bar when the wind and waves blew the mast downwind and she sank back in, trowing me off balance and really p1ssing me off in the process. Luckily for me I was in a safe area drifting toward a nice gravel bank where I knew I could beach without any damage that would worry me.

I shoved the dagger boards in and decided to pull up the rudders to protect them while beaching. That's when I found out that a Nacra 5.2 can do a backward summersault while on its side. It was actually a pretty cool move, even if it came as some surprise! Again I managed to stay dry, just don't ask me how, it all went so fast. That put the mast to windward but by now I had drifted to the shore and the number of people around made righting the boat there too dangerous.
Normally I can right this boat solo at the first attempt as I weigh in at 200# or slightly over.

Does anyone have any idea what could have prevented the boat from turning further into the wind like I wanted? (jib and main were both 100% loose and not snagged or anything) I had considered swimming the mast into the wind but the waves made me reconsider. Should I re-fit the righting pole I used to have or make me a righting bag after all? I have capsized and turtled a number of times, but never had any trouble righting this boat. What gives? Any ideas?
Thanks,
Dennis
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/15/11 08:44 PM

Bet the downhaul was hard on, don't ask me how I know.
Posted By: SoggyCheetoh

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/15/11 08:49 PM

I second the downhaul was probably on as well. Makes a nice scoop for water to collect. Also, the waves were probably keeping you from angling the boat into the wind like you wanted.

Alec
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/15/11 09:00 PM

If the wind and waves are too big, you may have trouble getting it to turn all the way into the wind. I've sometimes had some luck trying to get the boat to spin the other direction (I know, it's weird) by sinking the stern instead of the bow or by first submerging the bow until the bows are into the wind and then moving quickly to sink the sterns to complete the spin.

Last option; carry a small drag chute to tie to the bridle and drop in the water with a 10 foot line. This should hold the bow into the wind. You can right the boat with only the bows pointing into the wind if you can keep them there and let the sail fly like a wing. I've never tried this but we've talked about the option on here for a while.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 03:26 AM

I like the drag chute idea. Are there sources for them, or is it something to construct or farm out to my sailmaker? Dimensions?

Dave
Posted By: DennisMe

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 10:57 AM

Ok, so the downhaul was maxed out. The traveller and mainsheet were really loose though with the clew hanging down almost vertically into the water. I'll be sure to undo the downhaul next time though!

I also forgot to mention I not only released the jib sheets but also roller-furled the jib. Thinking about it last night I figured that was probably a dumb thing to do in this case. After all, a jib sausage filled with water is probably quite heavy.

I'm gonna try Jakes approach next time, especially with the added cartwheel effect if I go out on the stern too far. If I can do that consistently it means I can always get the mast to windward easily by spinning the whole boat around at once.
I'm not too keen on bringing aboard more hardware. With the drift as it is and the lake not overly wide I normally only get a couple of tries in before getting blown onto shore.

Dennis
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 11:39 AM

Downhaul doesn't matter in this case: If you are able to get the boat partially up, the water runs of the sail anyway.
I guess it was 25kts plus. The wind pushes so strong under the sail, that it is out of the water (more or less) and the bows turn into the wind. On my boat the mast is than in a horizontal position and doesn't touche the water any more. It is easy to get the boat half up, but than it bears away, the wind catches the tramp and this stops the righting (my boat starts sailing in this condition with me on the wrong side). Once I tried it three or four times without any success, finally I just jumped backward once the boat was half up and that did it. Here is it on video. Wind up 2:00min to see the capsize and attempts to get it up. It took me actually over 7mins to get it up.

Or as Jake said, go backward to turn the boat. Normally it should work if the mast and bows are are pointing 45deg to the wind. Once the boat starts to right move forward quickly.

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
I like the drag chute idea. Are there sources for them, or is it something to construct or farm out to my sailmaker? Dimensions?


Bass Pro Shops carry an assortment. Just search drift anchor or drift sock.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by DennisMe
Ok, so the downhaul was maxed out. The traveller and mainsheet were really loose though with the clew hanging down almost vertically into the water. I'll be sure to undo the downhaul next time though!

I also forgot to mention I not only released the jib sheets but also roller-furled the jib. Thinking about it last night I figured that was probably a dumb thing to do in this case. After all, a jib sausage filled with water is probably quite heavy.

I'm gonna try Jakes approach next time, especially with the added cartwheel effect if I go out on the stern too far. If I can do that consistently it means I can always get the mast to windward easily by spinning the whole boat around at once.
I'm not too keen on bringing aboard more hardware. With the drift as it is and the lake not overly wide I normally only get a couple of tries in before getting blown onto shore.

Dennis


I keep thinking about adding this system ... and now that I think about it and have my trampoline in my truck ready to drop off to my fix-it guy, I may have him sew a tight pocket with flap under the trampoline for a future chute. All it takes is a piece of 1/8" vectran, the chute (which is very compact), and a carabiner to clip onto the bridle. I would tie the end of the 1/8" line to the dolphin striker post where it would live. If needed, open the pocket, extract the chute, toss it into the water and clip the biner to the bridle. As a bonus, with it tied to the dolphin striker, you can quickly just gather it up and pull the chute up to the biner to deal with it later if you have other issues to tend to (like a lost crewmember). We're still planning on doing some distance racing and it would be nice to have this as a backup plan.

Also keep in mind that the chute will slow the boat through the water and (hopefully) prevent it from accelerating once righted...These spin boats like to turn and accelerate when initially righted which can create a safety issue.
Posted By: Ricardo

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 01:10 PM

Should have left the jib unrolled, the air under it would have helped. I agree, release the down haul, what do you have to lose? HTH, Ricardo.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Originally Posted by davefarmer
I like the drag chute idea. Are there sources for them, or is it something to construct or farm out to my sailmaker? Dimensions?


Bass Pro Shops carry an assortment. Just search drift anchor or drift sock.


Cabelas.com would also be a decent source.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 01:26 PM

Been there too many times, having struggled to get what is a normally easy boat to right and it simply won't, you think of all the things you haven't done, let off the downhaul and bingo up she comes as easy as normal.

I think its some thing to do with the mast bending back creating a tight area of sail, creating air drag. It won't allow you to get the mast perpindicular to the wind and then you get all the nearly moments you mention.

As an experiment try facing your boat directly into wind on the beach without any main sheet on, now tighten the downhaul and see what happens, you maybe surprised. Mine becomes like a cat on a hot roof, bouncing around all over the place.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 01:40 PM

Dennis:

Sorry for all your trouble but now I don't feel quite so alone.

I never have difficulty righting the boat, at 230, but getting back aboard is a problem. I'm thinking of a way to use a bucket system from the down hull. Deploy the bucket, have a seat or stand on the down hull and haul away. When the boat rights I'd already be aboard. A BIG bucket would overcome all the problems you're having and act as a drogue as well.

Cheers!

http://store.catsailor.com/pc/showsearchresults.asp?pageStyle=H&resultCnt=10&keyword=righting+bag&submit=Go+%3E%3E
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/16/11 11:27 PM

Here's Bass Pro Shops' offerings(thanks Kris!)

http://www.basspro.com/Bass-Pro-ShopsŪ-Drift-Anchor/product/90906/-1340050

Anyone want to suggest sizing for the 18HT and the ARC 22? Thanks!

Dave
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/17/11 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
Here's Bass Pro Shops' offerings(thanks Kris!)

http://www.basspro.com/Bass-Pro-ShopsŪ-Drift-Anchor/product/90906/-1340050

Anyone want to suggest sizing for the 18HT and the ARC 22? Thanks!

Dave


here's another one. make sure it has weights and floats in it to make it pop open quickly and easily (it looks like the one Dave linked has them in the photo).

Cabelas Drift Sock

I have no idea on size - but these are big! As tight as they wrap up, I don't think it hurts going a little bigger...I was thinking about the Large one with a 38" mouth and the collapsing strap.

I've got our trampoline guy sewing in a 12" pouch on the bottom of the trampoline with a heavy duty velcro flap for one of these. I'll give it a try next time we're out in any breeze.=
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/17/11 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by davefarmer
Here's Bass Pro Shops' offerings(thanks Kris!)

http://www.basspro.com/Bass-Pro-ShopsŪ-Drift-Anchor/product/90906/-1340050

Anyone want to suggest sizing for the 18HT and the ARC 22? Thanks!

Dave


here's another one. make sure it has weights and floats in it to make it pop open quickly and easily (it looks like the one Dave linked has them in the photo).

Cabelas Drift Sock

I have no idea on size - but these are big! As tight as they wrap up, I don't think it hurts going a little bigger...I was thinking about the Large one with a 38" mouth and the collapsing strap.

I've got our trampoline guy sewing in a 12" pouch on the bottom of the trampoline with a heavy duty velcro flap for one of these. I'll give it a try next time we're out in any breeze.=


It'll be interesting to see that thing drop out ,by mistake, on a mark rounding.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/17/11 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by davefarmer
Here's Bass Pro Shops' offerings(thanks Kris!)

http://www.basspro.com/Bass-Pro-ShopsŪ-Drift-Anchor/product/90906/-1340050

Anyone want to suggest sizing for the 18HT and the ARC 22? Thanks!

Dave


here's another one. make sure it has weights and floats in it to make it pop open quickly and easily (it looks like the one Dave linked has them in the photo).

Cabelas Drift Sock

I have no idea on size - but these are big! As tight as they wrap up, I don't think it hurts going a little bigger...I was thinking about the Large one with a 38" mouth and the collapsing strap.

I've got our trampoline guy sewing in a 12" pouch on the bottom of the trampoline with a heavy duty velcro flap for one of these. I'll give it a try next time we're out in any breeze.=


It'll be interesting to see that thing drop out ,by mistake, on a mark rounding.


Yeah, thought of that. I kept asking my sail/fabric guy for plastic buckles but he insisted on velcro with a pull tab.

BUT, I'm not going to carry that around the cans. That will be a distance racing only setup where we might not be able to depend on anyone but ourselves.

And now that I think about it a little, I don't think I'll hook the line up to anything. it will have two carabiners - one for the dolphin striker post and one for the forestay bridle..that way, Todd doesn't get to see me put on the brakes.
Posted By: orphan

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/17/11 01:07 PM

If you ran a line from the dolphin striker(or front cross bar) to the bridles under the spin pole. Then a retrieval line back to the tramp. Hook up and let it slide out to the bridles. Right the boat and climb on. Then retrieve from the tramp. It would also let you deploy from the tramp in case you need to just park the boat to handle a problem.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/18/11 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

As an experiment try facing your boat directly into wind on the beach without any main sheet on, now tighten the downhaul and see what happens, you maybe surprised. Mine becomes like a cat on a hot roof, bouncing around all over the place.


Any idea why this is the case? Pulling the downhaul should flatten the sail, reducing the camber.
Posted By: DennisMe

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/18/11 08:14 PM

I think it may be because of the loose main sheet. That pulls the boom up which I suppose creates a sack for the wind to catch?
Posted By: Capt_Cardiac

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/18/11 08:33 PM

Goose, I'm gonna put on the breaks and he'll fly right by...
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/18/11 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
Goose, I'm gonna put on the breaks and he'll fly right by...


Ted and I have recently being quoting a lot of top gun lately...including that one. That would be hilarious.
Posted By: Lost in Translation

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/18/11 11:41 PM

My experience is that downhaul on a catamaran sail increases draft and power initially and then decreases that power as downhaul is brought eventually to max. Off will be somewhat depowered, but I'd guess absolutely max on would also work well.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/19/11 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Baltic
Originally Posted by waynemarlow

As an experiment try facing your boat directly into wind on the beach without any main sheet on, now tighten the downhaul and see what happens, you maybe surprised. Mine becomes like a cat on a hot roof, bouncing around all over the place.


Any idea why this is the case? Pulling the downhaul should flatten the sail, reducing the camber.


I think it depends on what shape your sail takes when you pull the downhaul on. With really light wind, not enough to give the sail shape on my Taipan 5.7 I pulled the downhaul on hard until it pulled the sail into shape and it would look like it was full of wind and not flop around, that way I could use the little puffs. So if the downhaul is still on hard in a capsize you may still get lift from the sail as your trying to right the boat but unfortunately it is sucking the sail back to the water. When you leave the downhaul on when on the beach the front of the sail has shape so the wind latches on but then goes around into the loose cloth and flaps the sail around.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/19/11 02:20 PM

I use to right my 5.2 by leaving the dagger boards extended and standing on the ends of them, jib usually still sheeted in and the main loose. In light winds you can leave the main sheet tight as long as you have the sheet in your hand. Of course I was much younger back then, in good shape at 5' 11" @ 190 lbs. I was always flying the hulls it was just about the best thrill and a great boat to single hand for my size.
Posted By: srm

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/19/11 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Baltic
Originally Posted by waynemarlow

As an experiment try facing your boat directly into wind on the beach without any main sheet on, now tighten the downhaul and see what happens, you maybe surprised. Mine becomes like a cat on a hot roof, bouncing around all over the place.


Any idea why this is the case? Pulling the downhaul should flatten the sail, reducing the camber.


Because when the downhaul is completely off, there is no camber in the sail. The sail material is allowed to relax and align itself to the wind, especially along the leading edge. Once you pull on the downhaul, you are forcing shape into the sail and so the sail can never actually align itself to the wind, therefore it can never go fully into "neutral".

You crank on the downhaul to reduce sail power while underway, but whenever you want to park, you should let off the downhaul completely (so there is no tension along the leading edge of the sail).

sm


Posted By: Baltic

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/21/11 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by srm
Because when the downhaul is completely off, there is no camber in the sail. The sail material is allowed to relax and align itself to the wind, especially along the leading edge. Once you pull on the downhaul, you are forcing shape into the sail and so the sail can never actually align itself to the wind, therefore it can never go fully into "neutral".

You crank on the downhaul to reduce sail power while underway, but whenever you want to park, you should let off the downhaul completely (so there is no tension along the leading edge of the sail).

sm



This is a very comprehensible explanation - addressing both the righting issue and parking at the beach. Thanks!
Posted By: DennisMe

Re: Nacra not righted - 08/22/11 08:12 PM

Thanks everyone, hopefully next time I'll get 'r righted first try!

Dennis
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