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New Nacra F16 info

Posted By: pitchpoledave

New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 01:26 PM

Special pricing for prepaid orders until Nov.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 01:29 PM

Or download the high res version here:
f16 info http://www.nacra.ca/NACRA%20F16-2.jpg
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 02:23 PM

How much does it weight?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 02:40 PM

Weight???

Interesting that they chose 8 feet 2 inches for the beam. .... Back to the Taipan 4.9 dimensions.

Any idea what it will rate on SCHRS? Are they shooting for the 104 niche?

The Viper 8.5 feet beam boats seem to optimize around 300.... Any idea if a narrow version will shift the weight a bit higher?

Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 02:41 PM

Ah the magic question...
Weight will be around 124 kg single sailor, 128 kg two up!
Standard is aluminum mast, carbon mast optional. Weight savings for the carbon mast probably 8-10lbs
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 02:53 PM

sexy!
Posted By: mini

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Weight???

Interesting that they chose 8 feet 2 inches for the beam. .... Back to the Taipan 4.9 dimensions.

Any idea what it will rate on SCHRS? Are they shooting for the 104 niche?

The Viper 8.5 feet beam boats seem to optimize around 300.... Any idea if a narrow version will shift the weight a bit higher?



2.5m is 8-2 and max width.

You have to figure band power and a min weight boat would be instant success.
I guess this is just called being lazy. You send your manufacturing to Asia in the same shop as your competition I guess it is no surprise you have a like heavy boat.

I suppose the French F16 market is playing the ratings game with trying to be 104 on the SCHRS and a sweetheart number. All fine and good for now, but what happens when they realize the SCHRS overcompensates for weight in its calculation and they change the formula? You now have a bunch of overweight boats for no particular reason.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 05:13 PM

I was wondering when NACRA was going to stop jerking us off.

Then again, it doesn't exist yet.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 05:43 PM

Better yet..

What's the list price for that puppy!

It says it's a carbon fiber epoxy hull. That's going to be some money!

I'm going to guess ~25,000 US...


Mike
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 05:57 PM

I can sign you up for $19,750 USD single handed Uni Rig, or $20,900 sloop rig - ready to sail.

That's FOB, my warehouse, Buford, GA.

It's pretty sexy, looks just like a scaled down F20c (not surprising since they share the same design team).
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 05:59 PM

That's not as bad as I thought!


Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:04 PM

No canted hulls? Are they allowed in F-16?
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:05 PM

That is pretty unprofessional.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:08 PM

Don't tell me the **** storm has started!


I'm just glad there is another boat into the mix.

Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:08 PM

BTW, they are allowed, but is it worth it?

Do you know the answer to that? smile

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
That is pretty unprofessional.


Yeah W - T - F Karl? Keep it up and momma is gonna give you a strong talkin to, and you really don't want that.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
BTW, they are allowed, but is it worth it?

Do you know the answer to that? smile



If not there are a lot of fast boats that are getting it wrong.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:39 PM

Crap! 20's have canted hulls, we have got to do something about that boats number!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Crap! 20's have canted hulls, we have got to do something about that boats number!


It'll have to wait the PHC is fully committed to adjusting the F-18 number, especially for fat guys, and will not break their focus until the F-18 number is in the low 50s. Thank you and carry on.
I would think you'd be saving all of your old man energy for the butt whipping you're gonna get in Hyannis. I'll bet Team Punk is going to take it to you again. You're not helping the old man cause here, brother.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I would think you'd be saving all of your old man energy for the butt whipping you're gonna get in Hyannis. I'll bet Team Punk is going to take it to you again. You're not helping the old man cause here, brother.


Dude, Team Punk's got nothin. I'm sailing with Batman, that b!tch is toast.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
No canted hulls? Are they allowed in F-16?
If the illustration is correct, it looks like the design incorporates canted daggers. Up to 6 degrees from vertical is allowed.

Thanks for sharing Dave & Karl.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
That is pretty unprofessional.


Yeah W - T - F Karl? Keep it up and momma is gonna give you a strong talkin to, and you really don't want that.


Holy crap, how in the world is my comment viewed as negative? I've been anxiously awaiting this thing for well over a year.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/13/11 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Holy crap, how in the world is my comment viewed as negative? I've been anxiously awaiting this thing for well over a year.


Have you met Karl Brogger?

Just so we're clear I'm just having a little fun with you Karl.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 12:00 AM

Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.
Posted By: PTP

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 12:23 AM

So what are the prices of the main F16s available then? I would suspect that a new Viper is near that, with maybe the Falcon being less expensive? I think they are probably within 2k from each other.
This sport is getting pricey!!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by PTP
So what are the prices of the main F16s available then?


Depends on the dealer. What Mike quoted is exactly I've been selling Vipers for.
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:50 AM

Its a lot of cost to come up with all new tooling for beams, mast, rudders etc. If you are starting from scratch and don't have any tooling then you have to make it anyway and so why not make it light but if you already have the beams, mast then just use what you have. As for the hulls, not sure what they weigh but its a tradeoff of cost vs strength vs lightness and you can't have all three.
Posted By: Aido

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 06:57 AM

Because if you read the drawing more carefully it says that the construction is Epoxy, Glass and carbon. Not all carbon. Probably a bit of carbon slapped in where it matters most.

Personally i think its great that its a similar weight to the viper. Looks really cool.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 07:41 AM

Maybe i open the pandora box.
What me is surprising the most time is that most sailors are accepting a boat above 120kg but allowed is a weight of 107kg according the class rules. I do not understand why racers are not saying to builders "I want to have a boat to class weight". It looks like the sailors are just running after the builders and think ok this is it. I have experienced in A-class that when a boat is 2 kg above weight the sailor is very unhappy with this and in F16 we talk about more then 15 to 20 kg ?????? over weight.
I say this as a builder and sailor and it is surprising me over and over again because it is possible to build to 107 kg in glass/alloy combi and the price is still not exceptional different( read higher )
Just wondering.

Hans
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.
Posted By: Cab

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 12:11 PM

When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.



You do not need to have an all carbon boat to get to 107 kg, i used the proof in France the boat was below weight with only a carbon mast and for the rest alloy and glass fiber. I weighted the boat at the shop with an alloy mast and it was 107,3 kg. There was no exotic material only in the daggers and rudders but is needed of strength.
The beams used where having close the same size as on the Viper and similair to the Nacra F18 beams ( a bit bigger actually but mm's ).
But this is not the topic, i was wondering why the sailors are not demanding the builders to build a boat close to the edge of the class rules and are just running behind the builders like cheaps. I try to get an answer for this.

Hans
Posted By: mini

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.
The Taipan is 30+ year old technology.

As Hans seems to point out above, 1 builder elects to take the easy rout in building a boat and there ends up being a group of bandwagon fans adopting their sales pitch as gospel.

F18 beams, castings and foils are not required to make a stiff boat. It is just being lazy and using what you had to cut cost. Read other reports here on boat comparison and boats like the Falcon are just as stiff by using lighter purpose made extrusions and parts. A light weight round tube is much stiffer than the heavy square F18 beam used on the Viper. The Raptor, Bim and the other designs using this are likely as stiff if not more so without the weight penalty.

There are all glass and aluminum rigs out there that are pretty close to the weight. There are glass boats with carbon rigs I know that are at min. Cost wise a quick search shows that there is not any significant difference in cost, in fact depending on the exchange rate that day, some of the lighter boats are even less expensive.

Nacra gets built in the same shop and someone is surprised they have a boat weighing the same heavy amount. I am sure they saw the 104 game in their big local market of France and people obviously willing to still purchase way overweight boats and finally elected to try and enter the F16 game. Remove some controls, slap a little more cheap resin in the thing and try to keep your warranty costs to a minimum. Put some of the top racers on boats at boats at bigger events, so you have podium finishes and then put a spin on how these things need to be there. They need to be there so the builder can make more money on their sales, not because the rule set requires it.

Weight is already a highly over compensated for factor and beaten to death on the beach and in these kind of forums. If you want to buy a Nacra or a Viper then do so. Because they have a marketing story, do not spout it as gospel as it is not entirely true. If having light boat matters to you then buy that way. If no one buys a heavy boat, then you will quickly see these guys start making a min weight model. A class can easily be built even lighter than min. The 16 could as well , given the right design, process and tooling. This is without exotics. It’s business. If the class does not require it with their buying power why should the builders care.
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 01:39 PM

Seriously, why not make a boat to the class mins? crazy

It seems if you want to hit a home run in this market and the competition is heavy, why build to their weight? My opinion; a lost opportunity.

Speaking from a singlehanded background, having a "heavy" boat simply is not an option, period. I'm with Hans and Mike, WHY???

Most of the F16s out there are biased towards 2-up sailing anyway. Why (as a singlehander) would you spend the money on a platform designed to carry 2 and you sail as 1? It seems a F16 singlehanded specific boat is needed AT MINIMUM CLASS WEIGHT. Otherwise, just go and buy an A cat as prices seem to be reaching into that arena.

This topic was too easy to comment on!! Again this is just my opinion and may not be shared by the masses who like to sail heavy boats. crazy

BC
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 01:48 PM

+1
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:31 PM

Quote
"I want to have a boat to class weight"


The careful reader will ask... What is the class... exactly?

The single handed sailor, who wants an A class like boat with a spinnaker.

The double handed team, who wants an alternative to the F18 and the classic sloop boats that is optimized for 300 lb crew weights (The largest group of cat racers are still on Hobie 16's world wide at around 300 lbs)

Mushing these two interests into one class and saying... "make it so" did not impress Cap and Nacra. They said... we are building a boat for the second market.

Is it possible to build a perfect boat for both classes at 16 feet... perhaps... but it will be really pricey. (see A cat prices)

Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:43 PM

So, everyone wants to make a comment about weight.

Why don't you ask that with the F18's.

It seems that I remember some of the Infusions at US nationals last year were overweight by about 10lbs!

And if you recall, someone placed in the top 5 with that HEAVY boat!

You guys aren't an equal opportunity weight bashers are you!

Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by mini
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Weight???

Interesting that they chose 8 feet 2 inches for the beam. .... Back to the Taipan 4.9 dimensions.

Any idea what it will rate on SCHRS? Are they shooting for the 104 niche?

The Viper 8.5 feet beam boats seem to optimize around 300.... Any idea if a narrow version will shift the weight a bit higher?




Y You send your manufacturing to Asia in the same shop as your competition I guess it is no surprise you have a like heavy boat.





Isn't the C2 and Infusion made in the same factory now?

Isn't the C2 made below Min weight in that same factory?

What's the Infusion weight now?

I seem to remember some of them being overweight at US nationals a couple of years ago?

What about now?



Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:49 PM

my opinion is that the F16 class rules are a mess. You just can't race 1 up vs 2 up at the same rating..period. The class should be split into 2. The weight thing well its a function of economics but maybe the class weight should be moved up?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 02:53 PM

I just have to give thumbs up to Mini and Hans for their reasoned posts.

AHPC and NACRA have choosen a strategy for reasons I dont know. Now we just wait for Hobie to jump on the same bandwagon as the F16 market is becoming the next growth market. Rest assured, for continued economic stability at the manufacturers there will have to be a new class entering the market in a few years.

Now..
Ref: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/09/formula-16-new-nacra-design.html

..and multiple post in this thread..

Just why is every busybody trying to tell the F16 class how it needs to change to <insert reason of choice here or use my list: "Survive", "become olympic", "become a professional class", "to grow", "to go to infinity and beyond or whatever">. Looks to me like the class have managed fine on their own.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:21 PM

As i was afraid of is the weight thing again. I am not talking about the weight of the boat and choices the builder made to go in there all wisdom.

I was only wondering why nobody of the sailors is saying or demanding to builders, " i want your boat but build to the class edges " , weight is one of the things, it looks like to me that everybody is just running behind eachother like a band wagon.
The F16 class is as it is at the moment with their rules, just like every other class and everybody wants to change everything always like in any other class.

Hans

Hans
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:25 PM

As a paid up F16 class member I am opposed to any change in rules concerning weight or 1 up/2 up splits.

Our class is just fine the way it is.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:25 PM

Quote
ust why is every busybody trying to tell the class how it needs to change


Because we all have an interest in the 16 foot class being wildly successful. It should be the entry point for most cat racers who might change to one of the other classes in time and it is perfect for Teens, Women and Hobie 16 sized teams... We were waiting... waiting... waiting!
Now after 10 + years of class mismanagement or non management... a new player will tip the scales a bit further. ... so we are now hoping ... hoping .... hoping.
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:26 PM

If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
ust why is every busybody trying to tell the class how it needs to change


It should be the entry point for most cat racers who might change to one of the other classes in time and it is perfect for Teens, Women and Hobie 16 sized teams... We were waiting... waiting... waiting!
Now after 10 + years of class mismanagement or non management..


How can you have an entry boat that costs almost as much as one of the other boats?

Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!

Mark, STEP IT UP! Let's make it better! smile


Mike

Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 03:49 PM

+1

Let's take stock Mike:

* We're ISAF recognized
* We just completed our 2nd National Championship (plus several global challenges)
* That championship was held in a different geographical location, so we are not just a regional group.
* We have confirmed a location and OA for our 3rd national championship and it promises to be the best yet!
* And we have our 3rd class president. Making a seamless transition from one president to another is important. It means you have an actual organization as opposed to a cult.

I would say class management is doing just fine.

But, you're right. There will always be those critical of anything they can't control.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?


Sure why not?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.


Again, why not? Teens grow up and often increase in size. Women could find it extremely satisfying to tell a man what to do all afternoon, not something I know firsthand but I've seen things

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.


Is Matt involved in class management?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.


Well, that's just Mark being Mark.

Originally Posted by mikeborden

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!


Often true but not always the case.

Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 04:14 PM

I can't wait for Matt to officially announce his F18.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 04:22 PM

Me too.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 04:25 PM

Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.
Posted By: Matt M

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.

History if full of heavy 16-17 boats that have gone nowhere.

I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options. The F16 class has had steady and consistent growth. The attraction being predominantly light weight performance and versatility. People buying into the class by far are not the serious race group, but those who see an advantage in what the F16 rule set has to offer over some of the other classes.

The 16 is definitely a performance boat, but with less sheet loads and great response. The boats are capable of being driven nearly equivalent in around the course speed to the larger boat classes like the F18. In what world would this be considered a stepping stone? Its performance is already there, so even in “youth programs, it is really set up as an advanced step for better teams moving to multihulls not beginner multi racing.

We have now a premier 1 up and a 2 up multihull class racing in the A and F18. IMO, there is not really the participation to support more than 1 elite racing class with huge worldwide participation, in either. The 16 is attracting performance junkies and the local and club racing teams who by and large race like I do, with my wife and kids and stay more or less local. Here there is a place and nitch. The elite F18 teams are 2 young guys by and large. Although it’s there, no one at the top races small sail plan. Why is there no large outcry about separating the F18 class to eliminate the sail plan issue if they cannot seem to compete? Because it’s a class decision and not an open forum debate, same as F16 rules. There is a place for racing where mixed teams, youth etc can go, compete and have fun. The uni guys are there and doing what they love. This is the F16. If you want to be serious then go for it. If the weight matters then, same thing.

The debate here is about weight and why anyone would purposely buy or build an extreme over weight boat. I would be happy to discuss 1 on 1 with anyone the design and manufacturing issues associated with boats and how they impact costs, performance etc. 90% of the opinions espoused here do not hold any value. If someone wants to buy a heavy boat then it obviously does not matter to them, or they want to play the handicap ratings game and flop between 16 and 104. If they wish to buy a lighter boat then there are options available for that too.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by mikeborden
Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?


Sure why not?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.


Again, why not? Teens grow up and often increase in size. Women could find it extremely satisfying to tell a man what to do all afternoon, not something I know firsthand but I've seen things

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.


Is Matt involved in class management?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.


Well, that's just Mark being Mark.

Originally Posted by mikeborden

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!


Often true but not always the case.



I know your just busting my balls! smile

Yes, teens do step up in size, but the interpretation I got from the previous post is that the F16 class is only a stepping stone and nothing else. The F16 class CAN be, but it doesn't have to be JUST a steppping stone, it's bigger than that.

Matt is an F16 member, so he can put forward ideas and make decisions of how the class should go. That makes him part of the class management as is anyone else who is a paid and a voting member. smile

Some of these other yahoos aren't, and they seem to know everything and how things should be run.

smile

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 06:48 PM

Quote
I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options.


Hey... this thread started when NACRA built a boat that does not come close to the min specs of the rules and joined the Viper. Nacra built a boat that measures in. Time will tell if it out-performs the other designs in 2 up mode. (I hope it does just as well and not a bit more) People then asked WHY?

IMO, pretending that one up and two up configurations are really the same class is a fundamental problem of the rule set.

Conflating the marketing of F16's... hey you can use this one platform in either configuration... with... This is a FORMULA CLASS that promises a level playing field is a real problem.

In my book... when you spend 20k and take a weekend of time to go racing... you are serious... so... I disagree with your basic premise... there are also Serious RACERS on Hobie 16, 17, 18's plus A class and F18's and a few other regional classes. But they have rules that have integrity and are proven to work. Why do you want half butt rules for F16's? I suspect that one up sailors don't want to be running their own class because the critical mass for a single handed spin class may not be there... but that problem is solvable!

The min boat weight issue is really a builder issue in my book. In two up mode... I don't really care... I just don't want my choice to be slower. The race course will sort out the design choices within the formula box. As you correctly note... you now have three real option[/quote]s and your mileage will vary.

But until the class fixes the obvious flim flam (one up equals two up).... I would not use the word "integrity" and F16 rules in the same sentence.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 06:50 PM

Congratulations to Nacra! I am eager to see what their design and marketing team brings to the class.

Relative to the rest of the nonsense in this thread, bringing performance beach cats to the masses in an affordable manner is a series of compromises and what the market will bare. Looks like Nacra is taking a page out of AHPC's plan for qualifying as a 104 class also. Frankly, the F16 rig is very powerful and weight is proving not to be a significant handicap with the newer hull designs, especially amoung the club racing crowd.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options.


But until the class fixes the obvious flim flam (one up equals two up).... I would not use the word "integrity" and F16 rules in the same sentence.


I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.

Isn't there enough bitching about not enough numbers as it is?

So, you want to have less sailors because of "integrity".


WTF, you want to have you cake and eat it too apparently!

Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 07:10 PM

"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.


"Flim flam?"
You mean like ? "Ah say, Ah say... I don't see no hula hula girls.We've been flim-flammed."
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by pgp
"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.


"Flim flam?"
You mean like ? "Ah say, Ah say... I don't see no hula hula girls.We've been flim-flammed."



Phuck! Hahahahahaha. I bout pee'd me pants.


Kris hit it on the head. It's built as a 104 boat, it just happens to fit the F16 box as well. I think NACRA was wise to build it heavier as there are way more frenchies sailing 104 than using the F16 numbers.

Now, I wish they'd offer it in a prepreg autoclaved carbon nomex core as well. The truth of the matter is that there's probably only about two people in this country that would cut a $30k+ check this second for an extremely stiff, extremely well built/durable, minimum weight F16. These things are built to
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/14/11 11:33 PM

FYI: You can put yourself AND your old lady on a Wave and nobody gives a flying fartlick. 1 up, two up...hell, you can even go three up. Of course, the F16 thingy is probably WAAAAAY faster.....and most likely weighs 1/5 as much and maybe y'all don't WANT the old lady on the boat with you, but I am just typing to hear myself type at this point.
Have a great one! Hi Karlos!
cw
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 12:19 AM

Quote
I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.


OK.... so what don't you understand about a Formula RULE that the rest of the world understands to mean.. this rule is tested and assures that the racing is fair and level. (The F18 class was worried that the class would not be viewed as level and so they prohibited listing boat types at major events... they were all F18's.) You guys just say... trust us... single and double are equal on the course... cough cough. Trust us... the weight differences are not meaningful. (which may be true... but after the first whopper.... WTF)

So... I call it a flim flam when you market the class as a Formula 16 class which creates a fair, level playing field when you really don't believe this to be the case.

This is a very simple... it is just truth in advertising.
Create two distinct classes... when you choose to race even up in the same start... call it level racing.

If the sailors want a more level playing field... they choose to race handicap.

The results on the race course will determine if the formula rule works well.... if the racing is fair.... declare victory.
If some one shows up with a light weight world beater... You will have a tough problem ... change the rule to match the majority of boats... Otherwise, the heavy weights will just go form their own class.... (and not allow the light boats to race)
Posted By: arbo06

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 01:32 AM

Where does durability and cost of ownership enter into the equation when evaluating building materials? How do the lighter boats handle rougher wind and water states? Is there a very distinct advantage seen in the weight variance?
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 02:12 AM

Weight is most important on the beach and every ounce counts when you're handling the boat alone
Posted By: PTP

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by mikeborden

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.


There is NOTHING that compares to this. If it didn't exist, I'd be still sailing, but not having as much fun. Yes I could do it on other boats but I wouldn't be able to move them around on shore solo.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Congratulations to Nacra! I am eager to see what their design and marketing team brings to the class.

......Frankly, the F16 rig is very powerful and weight is proving not to be a significant handicap with the newer hull designs, especially amoung the club racing crowd.


The last frame is really an interesting phrase, that's something where the rating commitees should look at.

The 1 up to 2 up in the same fleet seems to be not equal when you look at the event results but the comparison is also not apples with apples. If you put one of the world best beach cat sailor on a 2 up boat they are hardly to beat ( what ever model or type he sails), they can even win on a wooden pallet with flag on it. It would be more interesting to see if you put a top gun on a 1 up and then starts joining the fleet, this would give a much better idea on things and a foundation for the next conversation . You need to have the same level of sailors on the 2 configurations and see what is happening , what also takes into account is the wind strength a 2 up will always be quicker in high winds because of boat handling but in the mid range winds i would like to see how this will be between the two set up,s. This has never happend before.

But also it needs to say that the F16 class must be happy with a new F16 design because it is good for the class and what i personally think is that ( as mentioned in previous comments) the F16 sailors does need to understand that the members are determing what to do with the class, they are the only one who can give direction to it, not the builders, not the Council and i think that a lot of paid up members are not really realizing this.

Hans
Posted By: Wouter

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 08:07 AM

Marc,

We at the F16 class simply made the choice to race 2-ups and 1-up in the same fleet and have actively tried to make the two variants as equal as we could get. How this fleet is scored afterwards is a decision left to the organisers of the event.

It is not mandatory to score the fleet as one fleet, every organisor may break out the results separately. For some reason no-one did up till now. I guess mostly because the participamts feel it is more fun to have a single listing and that is what everything is all about in the end. Having fun as sailors. And being guaranteed to be a full participant and not being an afterthought with a separate mini-course.

Other then that i personaly really do feel that for local ( fun or club) races the two setups are sufficiently close in performance. For global events I will personal opt for a separate listing in addition to the combined one and probably focus on the first ans use the latter to see where I'm roughly at overall.

That is when I do get the chance to be at one of those international events !

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 08:12 AM

Personally I think this is exiting news.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Wouter
........ For global events I will personal opt for a separate listing in addition to the combined one and probably focus on the first ans use the latter to see where I'm roughly at overall.......


This has been done at the latest 2 event ( Eurochallenge and last Worlds ) . There was an overall listing and on the price giving they had several prices for best ladies team, best junior team, best mixed team and best single hander.

Hans
Posted By: macca

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile



I’m here, was just out sailing my overweight F18..

For sure the boat we borrowed for the nationals there was overweight, and as I have said numerous times its not something I like to have under me at a big regatta. But sometimes you don’t get a choice with a borrowed boat.

The fact that we did well in the event is more to do with the fact that we sailed very well in the conditions we had. For sure we were not the fastest boat on the course which only makes it harder to do well. How much the weight impacted on our speed is unknown, but for sure it doesn't make you faster!

Now, onto the current topic: I built the business case for the Nacra F16 and made it very clear in that document that there was a considerable advantage in building the boat to the class weight or very close to it. This was based on the fact that the current benchmark boat (Viper) has left the door wide open for a better solution to the F16 rule to enter and dominate the class.
Based on the component weights from current partslist it was possible to get the boat down to weight, as Hans says it is totally feasible to build down to this weight, it just takes more time and energy (increased production cost) to do it compared to the current boats offered by Nacra.

My business case even factored in the increased retail price compared to the Viper if Nacra built the lightweight boat, the increase was less than 2k USD and that was maintaining the existing considerable margins, this would deliver a boat built to the rule (min weight, carbon mast etc) and of a very high standard. Would the market pay that much more for such a boat?

Upon seeing the result from the press release and knowing the weights targeted for the boat I can say that this is a big opportunity missed. Sure the boat will be nice and if its not faster than the Viper I will be surprised. But to not make it as good as it can be is simply disappointing and it still leaves the door wide open for the right boat to dominate. Unless the Viper sailors and Nacra sailors make up the majority within the F16 class and decide its better for them to vote in a weight change for the class, then you have the exact situation Hans is talking about backfiring...
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.


OK.... so what don't you understand about a Formula RULE that the rest of the world understands to mean.. this rule is tested and assures that the racing is fair and level. (The F18 class was worried that the class would not be viewed as level and so they prohibited listing boat types at major events... they were all F18's.)

This is a very simple... it is just truth in advertising.
Create two distinct classes... when you choose to race even up in the same start... call it level racing.



What about crew weight? Let's talk about that. According to some, if you are 10lbs over the minimum, there is an unfair advantage to the lighties, even in the heavy wind. So, why don't we handicap that? People in the F18 class think if you are 10lbs on either side of the optimum crew weight, then you are handicapped.

Why isn't there a handicap for that?

Even the A-class, lighter is better, so if the crew is 180, let's give them a handicap too, in the same class.

Nope, don't want to do that, cause we want to race on elapsed time, non of this handicap stuff.


If you are going to be anal about stuff, let's just go all the way!!!!


Mike
Posted By: SoggyCheetoh

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 01:19 PM

Ummm, do you realize you used the word "anal" and "let's go all the way" in the same sentence?
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by SoggyCheetoh
Ummm, do you realize you used the word "anal" and "let's go all the way" in the same sentence?


LOL! smile

Not until you told me about it!
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by mikeborden

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.


There is NOTHING that compares to this. If it didn't exist, I'd be still sailing, but not having as much fun. Yes I could do it on other boats but I wouldn't be able to move them around on shore solo.


Absolutely, it is a Zen like experience!!!!
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by mikeborden
Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile



I’m here, was just out sailing my overweight F18..

For sure the boat we borrowed for the nationals there was overweight, and as I have said numerous times its not something I like to have under me at a big regatta. But sometimes you don’t get a choice with a borrowed boat.

The fact that we did well in the event is more to do with the fact that we sailed very well in the conditions we had. For sure we were not the fastest boat on the course which only makes it harder to do well. How much the weight impacted on our speed is unknown, but for sure it doesn't make you faster!

Now, onto the current topic: I built the business case for the Nacra F16 and made it very clear in that document that there was a considerable advantage in building the boat to the class weight or very close to it. This was based on the fact that the current benchmark boat (Viper) has left the door wide open for a better solution to the F16 rule to enter and dominate the class.
Based on the component weights from current partslist it was possible to get the boat down to weight, as Hans says it is totally feasible to build down to this weight, it just takes more time and energy (increased production cost) to do it compared to the current boats offered by Nacra.

My business case even factored in the increased retail price compared to the Viper if Nacra built the lightweight boat, the increase was less than 2k USD and that was maintaining the existing considerable margins, this would deliver a boat built to the rule (min weight, carbon mast etc) and of a very high standard. Would the market pay that much more for such a boat?

Upon seeing the result from the press release and knowing the weights targeted for the boat I can say that this is a big opportunity missed. Sure the boat will be nice and if its not faster than the Viper I will be surprised. But to not make it as good as it can be is simply disappointing and it still leaves the door wide open for the right boat to dominate. Unless the Viper sailors and Nacra sailors make up the majority within the F16 class and decide its better for them to vote in a weight change for the class, then you have the exact situation Hans is talking about backfiring...


There is a storm building out on the horizon...
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.


Oh, you mean the second largest one-design sailboat, and most successful catamaran class in the world? grin
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 03:37 PM

The one that I have many, many fond memories of? The one that is still, imo, the best looking cat on the market?

That would be it.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 04:57 PM

Quote
What about crew weight? Let's talk about that.

This is a complete red herring... but If you must....

The F18 class DOES talk about crew weight and has two sail configurations. Wouter and the founders considered and rejected crew weight solutions for F16. They made an explicit decision that open sail shape would be enough of a level playing field. Most sailors have decided that custom sail shape is the game they write rules for and put into the class rules to define the game to play. (your move if you want something else)

THIS IS THE POINT.... The class rules define the game.. We understand Formula xxx class to mean the boats measure in and compete on a level playing field with boats that are equal in performance. The F18's have that kind of racing with boats from several builders.... It took a few years for the world to believe and accept that premise. The F16's one up and two up make this same claim. So... Do the F16 rules pass this level playing field test?

Hans wants a practiced single handed sailor to race a two up team of the same skill. My point would be... Why bother... To race around buoys... the one up sailor is playing a very different game with two less hands on the boat. So, do you think it's fair to the two up teams racing each other to go into a tight gate rounding with a single hander who has to put the stick down to snuff the chute? If he has rights and is just slow and interferes with the second of the two up boat.... Is this the right game to play?... In handicap and level racing... this situation is absolutely part of the game. In Formula racing.. it's a problem! Just because the equipment looks the same does not make it the same game!... Hans mentions the windspeed differences and how they effect the sailor and boat as yet another critical difference. Having a class rule that pretends that apples are oranges despite the obvious differences is a problem.

Finally this is Wouters point... Hey.... the sailors who race F6's choose to ignore the problem and want to race even up... They don't want to be split off.
Quote
And being guaranteed to be a full participant and not being an afterthought with a separate mini-course.
. The sailors want to look at the results any way they wish. Don't bother us with the technical details of our flim flam in the class rules.. I get it... I personally keep score of all A class sailors over 200 lbs.... my personal fat boy score! But I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO PUT IT IN THE CLASS RULES!

Quote
It is not mandatory to score the fleet as one fleet, every organisor may break out the results separately.


Nope!..... the OA follows the class rules for a NOR that declares this a class race... they could in theory be protested if they split this out... The class rules state that one ups are racing two ups. It's the fundamental nature of the competition. (This stops all of the BS... Hey... don't cover me... I am not racing you....I am single handed)

Do you REALLY WANT A WORLD where the OA can decide what the racing is for your class? OA's dont want to bother with yours or any class's internal rules.... They just want to follow your class rules and run the race. The OA's protest committee wants to resolve any disputes with a copy of class rules in front of them.

The simple solution is one class for two ups (F16)... one class for 1 ups (F16 1 ups). When you want to schedule a race with heads up racing... create a new class that combines the two ... Level 16's! and have the OA run that race according to those new class rules.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 05:46 PM

think of how much better you'd be and how much more fun you'd have had if you were out sailing instead of discussing all this minuta about weights?

Macca even said himself that they did well with a heavy boat, just had to work a little harder.

And you wonder why people don't race much anymore.... I want to sail better than I did LAST time. If that puts me at the front of the fleet, all the better.

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 05:47 PM

How about becoming a paying class member with voting rights Mark. Shouting and being obnoxious here is just expelling hot air.

Your derogatory characterization of the class is an insult. If you were able to debate objectively I might even try to take you seriously. As it is you are just another busybody producing negative statements on a catamaran class. Thanks a lot buddy.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
producing negative statements on a catamaran class.


Not directing this at Mark specifically, but you make a very good point here.

Casual sailors/racers read this and decide it's not worth sailing...
Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 06:00 PM

Quit whinning! laugh When can you get another kitchen pass?
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
What about crew weight? Let's talk about that.

This is a complete red herring... but If you must....


So now it's a red herring!!!!

There sure is a lot of people that think it's not! smile

I think weight is used too much, as a matter of fact, they use it as an EXCUSE to loose!

One of the points that I have been trying to make is stop talking, start doing! Especially if you aren't part of the class.

You don't see me telling the F18's they should loose weight cause they are too heavy! Nope, I'm not part of that class!

You also don't see me saying that the F18's should loose the small sail plan because they aren't competitive. Nope, I'm not part of the class!

Do you see me telling the A-cats that their boats are too light! Or the development is too fast, so it's hard to get into the class and be competitive. Nope, I'm not part of the class!

I could go on and on, but I don't, cause I'm not part of those classes.

I am a paying and voting member of the F16, so I can say what I want about it. If I don't like it, I can propose new rules or additions.

Some of YOU CAN NOT!

FWIW,
I'm just being very passionate about this and it seems that some people just have bold face lies about things, or the facts aren't straight.

So, don't take offense to some of this. I'm sure if I sat down with any of you over a beer, it wouldn't seem as intense as this!

Notice my smiley faces smile

smile

smile






Posted By: pgp

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 06:08 PM

Dude, you missed some really good crab cakes!
Posted By: SoggyCheetoh

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hans wants a practiced single handed sailor to race a two up team of the same skill. My point would be... Why bother... To race around buoys... the one up sailor is playing a very different game with two less hands on the boat.


Mark, you and I have talked about this on the beach a couple of times and being an F16 Uni racer, I'm not sure that I agree with you. I certainly thought I was playing the same game as the double handed racers. Granted, it's a bit more work to do and if a line gets fouled during a spin hoist or douse, it's a bigger deal, but when it's done right, I can beat double handed teams in those maneuvers. I also don't just put the tiller down and hope for the best while I'm setting or taking down the spinnaker. I've got it locked behind my knee set and just the angle I need to get around the mark quickly. With the spinnaker up I've found that I can sail faster and deeper then the 2 up boats which helps to make up some of the distance that I might loose without crew on board to help. I also don't have to "get in sink" with a crew when driving and working the spin, which I think helps me to stay in the groove longer than if I was racing on a 2 man boat.

Up wind I really haven't seen a difference in speed or pointing ability between the two, but I've found it a little easier to stay in the groove upwind when I have the jib on. Also weighing in at 220#, the extra sail area of the jib is nice.

The ability to race the F16 uni is what has kept me in the sport the last couple of years. I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.

I like competing straight up with the 2up F16s partially because of the challenge. Can I have a better Spin set then the other boats? Can I douse and make it around the mark better and faster then the 2up boats? Those are all little challenges I enjoy around the race course. Like Hans, I would like to see one of the top sailors compete at a Global or National F16 event single handed so that we can put some of this discussion to rest.

Respectfully,

Alec
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:20 PM

Hi Alec
Quote
I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.


Keeping your sailing fresh is certainly important! I also had a ball sailing the Bim F16 against the Nacra F17's...not to mention Jim Boyer's Taipan 4.9 in Michigan. (never tried the super sloop mode... that's a lot of sail area!)

I appreciate that YOU think you are playing the same game... the question is... do the two double handers think that they are racing you..... or are they really just interested in racing each other?. (As you noted... you go deeper down wind..) The score sheets suggest that the double handed configuration is faster. Now, Level racing (or handicap racing) is a fine game... but it's different.

In the end... this will be decided by the EU sailors. Do they race in the 104 class?, How many single handed sailors go racing?.... Do the Vipers and Nacras even choose to race in the F16 class.

Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.

Will you be doing Oxford with Keith?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless


Well, since there is no telling when you will be on the back of a boat again here you go... you mother F@#$ER!

I have more, just ask Ricky, aka "The Punk". Where is my damn hat!?
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
THIS IS THE POINT.... The class rules define the game.. We understand Formula xxx class to mean the boats measure in and compete on a level playing field with boats that are equal in performance.

WRONG. Formula XXXX class rules mean the boats measure in.....period.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:32 PM

Leave it to you to notice! blush
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.


What is most relevant to me? It is the local/club scene. Last night, 6 Unis and 1 2-up, over half of the boats competing last night were F16s. If the rules do not disenfranchise the Unis, there is always the possibility of all unis picking up crew for a major event....or not. The choice is theirs.
Posted By: SoggyCheetoh

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Chris9
Leave it to you to notice! blush


If only more people could see the world through my eyes and my sense of humor.
Posted By: SoggyCheetoh

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hi Alec
Quote
I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.


Keeping your sailing fresh is certainly important! I also had a ball sailing the Bim F16 against the Nacra F17's...not to mention Jim Boyer's Taipan 4.9 in Michigan. (never tried the super sloop mode... that's a lot of sail area!)

I appreciate that YOU think you are playing the same game... the question is... do the two double handers think that they are racing you..... or are they really just interested in racing each other?. (As you noted... you go deeper down wind..) The score sheets suggest that the double handed configuration is faster. Now, Level racing (or handicap racing) is a fine game... but it's different.

In the end... this will be decided by the EU sailors. Do they race in the 104 class?, How many single handed sailors go racing?.... Do the Vipers and Nacras even choose to race in the F16 class.

Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.

Will you be doing Oxford with Keith?


Yep, I'll be sailing on the Pirate boat for the Oxford/Hammond race. As much as I like sailing uni, Distancing racing alone just isn't that much fun to me. I guess I just can't think of enough interesting things to talk about to keep myself occupied. After about an hours there's just this awkward silence on the boat. grin

You bring up another interesting point on whether or not the 2up boats feel like they are really racing against the uni's or just against each other. I never thought about that before. I hope so...

Alec
Posted By: Jake

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless


Well, since there is no telling when you will be on the back of a boat again here you go... you mother F@#$ER!

I have more, just ask Ricky, aka "The Punk". Where is my damn hat!?


I have your hat but, unfortunately, it will be staying in S.C. with me next week.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cab
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?

I relized as well. That amount of rocker was popular some time ago. Why was it dropped? Does the deck has a chine between bow and cross beam?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/15/11 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

I have your hat but, unfortunately, it will be staying in S.C. with me next week.


Seriously!? I know what your doing, you want to hold onto that Spring Fever beat down you gave me just a little longer don't you? If you're scared just say your scared.

Don't worry, the south will deliver a little payback for north invading the United States of America.
Posted By: Aido

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by Cab
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?

I relized as well. That amount of rocker was popular some time ago. Why was it dropped? Does the deck has a chine between bow and cross beam?


Not sure what older boats your referring to smiths? Tiger?

While the boat looks very much like the little brother of the infusion and the f20, the rocker sort of reminds me of the new Cirrus. Appears to have a bit of a reverse in the stern???
Posted By: arbo06

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 01:39 AM

Classified ad.

"Looking for a used F-16"

NACRA aint stupid.
Posted By: arbo06

From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 01:42 AM

The argument is raging again about building to minimum weight. I am finding out that what you get is like the engine in a dragster. Built for one fast run.

My 2006 Blade is on its third set of rudders. The heads keep splitting. The first time I ever went on a screaming two up jib reach a dagger broke (we weren't even trapping).

Now, I have a deck flexing so bad it has completely let go at the dagger board trunk. This is a boat that has been sailed predominately single handed on a lake by a 180 pounder. Both hulls have 4 foot long cracks between the trunk and the rear beam approximately 4 inches down the sides . Cracked outside, cracked inside, I am sure the foam is cracked too.

I removed the deck and found that the only thing supporting it's span was the trunk. There was a 1 inch gap between the foam laminated into the deck and the hull sides. This left a couple thin layers of glass to deal with the transition from thick to thin. There were no bulkheads in this area of the hull. Only a couple of loose fitting foam blocks between the hull and trunk. Removing the tramp track showed where the glue securing it had failed as there were many screw holes that had seriously elongated

So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat sailing it on a lake from June to September in only 5 years. I am seriously dissapointed in these major mechanical failures. This boat has never been in a collision and has never run aground.

I don't have the heart to try to sell this to someone. I sailed a 1977 Nacra for many years and a club member is still sailing it. I cannot imagine what a Blade will look like in 34 years.

Posted By: erice

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 09:27 AM

a 1977 nacra is likely to be a 17' nacra5.2 weighing in at 161kg

looks a little heavy by today's standards

but when hobie build a boat to beat it, the TheMightyHobie18, it weighed 181kg

and that's right where the F18 class desided to set their minimum weight of 180kg

by those standards a new, cheap, tough, alloy and glass F16 at around 120kg doesn't sound over-weightt

Posted By: macca

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by erice
by those standards a new, cheap, tough, alloy and glass F16 at around 120kg doesn't sound over-weightt



At more than 20k it's not cheap though....
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 09:41 AM

Im guessing most of the parts of the new Nacra F16 come from the Infusion (mast, beams, rudders, boards, etc) in order to keep the price down for both tooling and manufacturing.
Downside is probably a heavier boat and it might not be responsible to get every weight gain just from the hulls (instead of spreading it across every part).
If it sails as good as it looks they might have a real winner here.
Posted By: pgp

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 10:32 AM

"So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat..."

It is also possible to screw up a vacant lot.
Posted By: erice

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 11:04 AM

the good thing about downsizing parts like that is that inherent strength usually goes up

but yes, it may still cost a packet and work out a little more expensive per foot than an f18 but if it keeps sailing for over 30 years like many of the nacra5.2s it will have been worth it

in 1977 the nacra5.2 cost $2,950

35 years later the same boat costs about $1000

that's $70 a year

imho a slightly heavier boat from an established builder is the best buy for most sailors
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by erice
the good thing about downsizing parts like that is that inherent strength usually goes up

but yes, it may still cost a packet and work out a little more expensive per foot than an f18 but if it keeps sailing for over 30 years like many of the nacra5.2s it will have been worth it

in 1977 the nacra5.2 cost $2,950

35 years later the same boat costs about $1000

that's $70 a year

imho a slightly heavier boat from an established builder is the best buy for most sailors


A slightly heavier boat (I'll not go into the definition of slightly in this context) from an experienced builder, where a proper test-program have been applied sounds like a good idea. If no testing have been done on the structure.. The risk of standing up to your elbows in sanding dust and epoxy is very real.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by arbo06
The argument is raging again about building to minimum weight. I am finding out that what you get is like the engine in a dragster. Built for one fast run.

My 2006 Blade is on its third set of rudders. The heads keep splitting. The first time I ever went on a screaming two up jib reach a dagger broke (we weren't even trapping).

Now, I have a deck flexing so bad it has completely let go at the dagger board trunk. This is a boat that has been sailed predominately single handed on a lake by a 180 pounder. Both hulls have 4 foot long cracks between the trunk and the rear beam approximately 4 inches down the sides . Cracked outside, cracked inside, I am sure the foam is cracked too.

I removed the deck and found that the only thing supporting it's span was the trunk. There was a 1 inch gap between the foam laminated into the deck and the hull sides. This left a couple thin layers of glass to deal with the transition from thick to thin. There were no bulkheads in this area of the hull. Only a couple of loose fitting foam blocks between the hull and trunk. Removing the tramp track showed where the glue securing it had failed as there were many screw holes that had seriously elongated

So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat sailing it on a lake from June to September in only 5 years. I am seriously dissapointed in these major mechanical failures. This boat has never been in a collision and has never run aground.

I don't have the heart to try to sell this to someone. I sailed a 1977 Nacra for many years and a club member is still sailing it. I cannot imagine what a Blade will look like in 34 years.



Wow that's depressing. If you don't want it anymore I'll take it off your hands for a yard sale price...at the same time I would hope you've talked to Matt and he's working with you to at least fix the major structural problems. I've blown up rudder heads on N20 rudders which are built like bricks, part of that is technique and part of that is luck, aka, what **** did you hit today while doing 20+ kts?

The new Nacra F16 looks good, sure you can build a lighter boat but you can probably also loose 10 lbs per person, pick a better direction to sail, have a better spin set, don't screw up the start/tacks/gybes etc....once you are a pro, olympic class sailor then you can bitch about boat weight.

I for one will take a heavier boat that is built right, frankly my biggest concern is that the initial production run of boats will have major structural problems (improperly seated dagger board case, poorly joined hull halves, weak dagger boards etc.) just like the Infusion (and to a much lesser extent the F20c).
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us


at the same time I would hope you've talked to Matt and he's working with you to at least fix the major structural problems.


As far as I know Matt is no longer employed by Vectorworks.
Posted By: catman

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 02:45 PM


All the complaining about a few pounds. Yet the manufacture has has to warranty the boat for a set amount of time.

Hans if your a builder and you see a way to gain a hold on the F-16 market based on weight alone then you should tool up and go for it.

And the rest complaining about weight would be the ones burning down your house when their eggshells started cracking.

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by macca

Now, onto the current topic: I built the business case for the Nacra F16 and made it very clear in that document that there was a considerable advantage in building the boat to the class weight or very close to it. This was based on the fact that the current benchmark boat (Viper) has left the door wide open for a better solution to the F16 rule to enter and dominate the class.
Based on the component weights from current partslist it was possible to get the boat down to weight, as Hans says it is totally feasible to build down to this weight, it just takes more time and energy (increased production cost) to do it compared to the current boats offered by Nacra.


Whoa up, for years Macca stirred the pot over on the F16 forum and wound everyone up pretty well about the weight issue arguing forever and a day how the F16 class had it wrong and all boats need to be over weight, now having " retired" from Nacra he seems suddenly to be a convertee in that all boats need to be minimum weight, its amazing how the dollar in ones wage slip seems to cloud ones mind, mmmmm. If you suck up to the dollar then I guess it will eventually bite you in the a***

I guess the builders already making boats to weight will have the same warranty as Nacra who have also made a few suspect boats along the way, you only have to read some of the F18 forums to realise that.

The weight issue is no different than the Viper, its simply more economical in production cost terms,to use existing F18 parts.If enough are built maybe the rules will be changed to suit simply by the voting rights of owners, but under the class constitution they will have to wait for the 5 year review before they can apply.

The Viper doesn't seem to have suffered along the way and ended up with about the right handicap ( it wins some open events but not all ). If someone was such a weight weenie then it wouldn't be much of a problem to retro fit carbon beams, carbon mast and a set of A class rudders to bring the Nacra boats down to class weight. Would it make a better boat, only marginally I would think.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 05:22 PM


"Hans if your a builder and you see a way to gain a hold on the F-16 market based on weight alone then you should tool up and go for it. "

Actually Hans did do exactly that. It's called the aquaraptor F16 and he launched it last year.

Like looks a fine boat. Hans does have very skilled hands.
Posted By: macca

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 05:43 PM

Wayne, Its not that i have changed my mind, I have always made it clear that the class is leaving itself open to issues arising from the weight issue. Now, exactly what I told you all will happen is now for sure going to happen. The majority of the class will be made up of owners (that can vote) that have boats in the 128kg weight range. Then if someone builds something those owners dont like.... its an easy voting process to secure their investment in a heavy product.

How long do you think that will take??

Nacra missed the chance to deliver a boat that made the viper redundant at the top level, and that I believe is an opportunity missed from a commercial point of view. Every manufacturer wants more market share and the competitive advantage of entering into a class with room to improve on the current offerings is a rare situation and not one that should be missed.



Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Then if someone builds something those owners dont like.... its an easy voting process to secure their investment in a heavy product.

How long do you think that will take??


Minimum 5 years depending on the when they put in their application. The governing council wisely put in a clause on the change of rules which prevents just this sort of thing.

I'm not sure whether you have changed your mind, more perhaps looking from the other side of the fence, but hey we all got there in the end and I really hope other manufacturers such as Hobie and Cirrus now chip in with their own designs. Before long we will have the F20's for the big boys, F18's for the heavier teams, the F16's for the mixed and light weights and a couple of nice little 12 and 14 footers for the juniors, the A's for the purists, and with the AC45's generating the publicity it looks pretty bright for multihulls in general.
Posted By: catman

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter

"Hans if your a builder and you see a way to gain a hold on the F-16 market based on weight alone then you should tool up and go for it. "

Actually Hans did do exactly that. It's called the aquaraptor F16 and he launched it last year.

Like looks a fine boat. Hans does have very skilled hands.


That's awesome then. Hope he's right.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 06:43 PM

Quote
Nacra missed the chance to deliver a boat that made the viper redundant at the top level, and that I believe is an opportunity missed from a commercial point of view. Every manufacturer wants more market share and the competitive advantage of entering into a class with room to improve on the current offerings is a rare situation and not one that should be missed.

Macca
I agree with your first point.

I differ on this second point. The other interpretation is that Nacra believes that this class is targeted to club racers and boats on the line will trump a tiny bit more of performance in selling boats and growing a fleet. So... by joining the game at the Viper level... they protect their investment and can sell new owners on the prospects of fun racing at the club level against a fleet of similar boats.

The US experience in choosing between the light F18HT design and the Heavy F18 design supports the argument that light does not trump the potential for mass appeal. (known builders and EU acceptance)

Also, cornering the market is not all it's cracked up to be! ... the old F20 class cratered when Ventilo built the fastest light design and every body else just bailed on the class. Marstrom cornered the market in the Tornado class but succeeded because the boat was Olympic. Cornering the market only works when the elite sailors are looking for an edge and the olympic class drove this forward.

No one has ever said... the F18 rule has created the best 18 footer ever built.... It is the popular and successful 18 footer. So.... being popular trumps being the best. (And no one has cornered the market in F18's.)

Final point... Nacra does not give a damn about the Single hand Spin market that really wants a light boat..... They tried and failed to get lift off with F17. Hobie tried and failed with the FX1. I believe they now recognize that Single handed RACING is different and the A class has filled that niche a bit better. If light weight single handed spin boat racing were going to take off world wide because the sailors of the world were dying for just the right boat... ... then the Marstrom M18 or the several light F16 designs would have taken off over the last ten years.

I predict a successful two up F16 class with Vipers, Nacra's and eventually Hobie. I predict a much much smaller one up class at the lighter weight. (Assuming the class evolves to keep the name) For club racing.... Handicap or level racing will always dominate... and in the EU... where they would much rather race in big fleets... events like Carnac will put all of the 16 and 17 footers on the water in a handicap spin class.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Quit whinning! laugh When can you get another kitchen pass?


I got TWO - Hiram's and Wildcat. You gonna be there to witness the "revenge of the Stank-a-tude"?
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Aido
Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by Cab
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?

I relized as well. That amount of rocker was popular some time ago. Why was it dropped? Does the deck has a chine between bow and cross beam?


Not sure what older boats your referring to smiths? Tiger?

While the boat looks very much like the little brother of the infusion and the f20, the rocker sort of reminds me of the new Cirrus. Appears to have a bit of a reverse in the stern???

Didn't see yet the new Cirrus. I had some older Bimare and the Eagle F18HT in mind. Guess you need the reverse in the stern to get the right outflow angle.
I think that the pronounced rocker means that volume was taken from the front and rear and shifted to the center. There are obviously two schools of thinking: One says put volume in the bow to avoid diving and another who takes volume out from the bow (and stern to rebalance). Don't know which one is better or if there is one better (assuming both sailed correctly).

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 06:49 PM

Mark, you're spot on with your assessment of the F18 class IMO.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 07:37 PM

holy cr*p. The end must be near.

Ding is agreeing with Mark on an F18 subject...
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Final point... Nacra does not give a damn about the Single hand spin market that really wants a light boat..... They tried and failed to get lift off with F17. Hobie tried and failed with the FX1.

How do you know? Do you have an in with Nacra? F17 = 156kg & FX-One = 148kg. Maybe that had something to do with the low interest by the single hand sailors? Also, there is a lot to be said about a formula class where boats are from several manufacturers and none of the problems you get with a single manufacturer one-design. F16 is a great example where the formula class principles work; for example the newer hull design. Frankly, I believe all of the builders love the idea that they can sell the same boat to more sailors, both uni and 2-ups. The only ones with major gas pains about the class seem to be inactive or non-members in the class. Nacra and AHPC are also leveraging their market even further by producing a boat that is 104 compliant. Good for them. AHPC has made the strategy work. Nacra can do the same. As said before, weight is not proving to make a huge difference with the sail plan and newer hull designs....So much so, that SCHRS is rethinking its model relative to weight.

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 08:57 PM

The FX1 is not a good boat to sail singlehanded, very unforgiving on the water, difficult to right single handed and heavy to push around off, the Nacra F17 came in so many guises that no one was quite sure which model it was and all that the FX1 was above. We see it our club where a new owner of an FX1 arrives, sails for a couple of months and then the boat sits in the boat park with the other 5 parked FX1's. Shame as its a beautifully engineered and built boat.

Times and hull designs have moved a long ways since those two designs and I would suspect that some company somewhere will design a single handed with occassional two handed boat rather than vice a versa as at present. Datchet was a good example where the majority F16's sailed single handed, alas due to handicap and other issues that is not the case anymore, but certainly in the UK the consensus of thought was the F16 is a solo boat rather than dual.

I'm surprised that one of the A Class manufacturers haven't gotten involved as a single handed F16 is really only a short version of an A Class with a spinny on. The F16 market would seem a natural extension of their potential market.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/16/11 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
holy cr*p. The end must be near.

Ding is agreeing with Mark on an F18 subject...


Did you get a bit of a chill reading that like I did Mike?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 09:57 PM


Other then that , this shouldn't be another weight thread. Can't we just be merry about this announcement from Nacra ?

I mean , lets give them some attention instead of beating dead horses. We' ve got tp respect the effort of launching a new catamran type and not spoil their lime light.

That would be bad taste.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 11:29 PM

Wouter

Nacra went narrow relative to your choice of 8'6 on your Typhoon.

What do you expect the tradeoffs to be compared with the current boats?


Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 11:38 PM

It's not 8 feet- 2 inches Mark, its 8.2 inches / 2.5 meters, which is max F16 width. Same as all the others.
Posted By: bobcat

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/16/11 11:57 PM

Uh, that would be 8.2 feet.

And .2 of a foot is 2.4 inches
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 12:00 AM

Oops, you is correct. My FXone was 8'-4", and that's probably what I was thinking. Either way, its max width.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 12:03 AM

DoH!

Thank you....
(better get my glasses adjusted)
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/17/11 01:14 AM

Wayne, regarding the F17, the only version the matters is the current one which is quite a good boat. The mast is the same as the Infusion and the new sail plan is really good. The hull design is dated I think we all agree on that. But it is a very nice boat to sail. I think people are way too caught up the "latest and greatest" hull design fads.. The F17 is a true one design class that works..



Posted By: mbounds

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/17/11 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
Wayne, regarding the F17, the only version the matters is the current one which is quite a good boat. The mast is the same as the Infusion and the new sail plan is really good. The hull design is dated I think we all agree on that. But it is a very nice boat to sail. I think people are way too caught up the "latest and greatest" hull design fads.. The F17 is a true one design class that works..

I'm going to call BS on that. Carbon masts, aluminum masts, different sail areas, sloop rigs, uni rigs, different platform weights do not make a "one design class".

What you are saying is, "FU to all you guys who bought Inter 17s and NACRA 17s - even though they superficially look the same, they aren't the same boat. Sorry." Nice marketing strategy (and class management). No wonder the class is dying.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: New Nacra F16 info - 09/17/11 03:43 AM


[/quote]
- even though they superficially look the same, they aren't the same boat. Sorry." Nice marketing strategy (and class management). [/quote]

Like the Hobie Tiger one design
Posted By: arbo06

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 04:17 AM

My apologies. In this current economy, hopefully, even sailors are concerned with mundane things such as initial investment, normal and regular maintenance, and damage repairs. Why would we question a manufacturer giving us a boat that will have some sort of a shelf life?
Posted By: macca

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by arbo06
My apologies. In this current economy, hopefully, even sailors are concerned with mundane things such as initial investment, normal and regular maintenance, and damage repairs. Why would we question a manufacturer giving us a boat that will have some sort of a shelf life?


What if Hobie or Cirrus build an F16 to min weight, then it's well built, fast and lasts long? Does that mean the existing heavy boats sit on the shelf? smile

Door still wide open...
Posted By: Wouter

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 07:30 AM

The others already replied to your earlier posting.

Indeed, the metric units in brochure all seem to match up with the F16 class rules.

Or at least the ones that are quoted.

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by macca

What if Hobie or Cirrus build an F16 to min weight, then it's well built, fast and lasts long? Does that mean the existing heavy boats sit on the shelf? smile

Door still wide open...


We already have F16 manufacturers making boats at weight, well made ( probably better in some ways to get local high tech production where the boats are built by highly skilled workers)and will last as long as any other manufacturer, with the same warranties, they just don't yet have the brand image of the big boys ( read can't afford to have paid top jockies to smoke them around the course ) and that has always been the problem for the F16 class, the big boys wanted to protect there own one design boats.

Now finally we have a reason for the big boys to get involved, namely the Olympic mixed boat. Sadly AHPC who have made all the running to date and put a lot of investment in to secure sales in the class now have other contenders, they may just yet have to bite the bullit and make a class weight boat to gain any advantage, it will annoy there already considerable number of owners but they may just have to do it.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/17/11 02:23 PM

True. If....
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words - 09/18/11 02:54 AM

nice shape on the nacra from first rate designers however overweight. Bottom line is the lighter weight boats are far more labor intensive and also require a higher level of expertise to build with less room for error and less profitable...

The Taipan seems to be faster with less beam as do the a-cats. So perhaps then building to max beam width does not necessarily equate to faster boat...

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by macca

What if Hobie or Cirrus build an F16 to min weight, then it's well built, fast and lasts long? Does that mean the existing heavy boats sit on the shelf? smile

Door still wide open...


We already have F16 manufacturers making boats at weight, well made ( probably better in some ways to get local high tech production where the boats are built by highly skilled workers)and will last as long as any other manufacturer, with the same warranties, they just don't yet have the brand image of the big boys ( read can't afford to have paid top jockies to smoke them around the course ) and that has always been the problem for the F16 class, the big boys wanted to protect there own one design boats.

Now finally we have a reason for the big boys to get involved, namely the Olympic mixed boat. Sadly AHPC who have made all the running to date and put a lot of investment in to secure sales in the class now have other contenders, they may just yet have to bite the bullit and make a class weight boat to gain any advantage, it will annoy there already considerable number of owners but they may just have to do it.
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