Olympic Multihull Specification

2016 Olympic Multihull specification:

ISAF

Discuss.......

This struck me as a little curious -

"Two part mast"

Presumably something to do with -

"Able to be shipped in a 6.1m (20ft) container" ?

There's something about isolating the mast? like a crap/comp tip? YUCK!

Nope..



They want a comp tip!

Hmm... who was making the case that the Hobie 16 was the boat they want!....

How much of a savings is there on 20 foot containers.... and not the standard 40 foot box we are familiar with? Obviously... the idea is that teams could afford the smaller box and do the world-wide circuit.

I think Riba was making and selling two part carbon masts for the Bim 18HT? Do I have that correct?

They are clever.... they stop the alu mast BS right at the begining... that was a fundamental problem for the T class so they are not making that mistake again. They take the F18 class completely out of the picture. Not to mention every racing class in the world EXCEPT the USA Hobie 16.

Hmm.... do the powers that be think that Carbon sticks are sufficiently electrically safe... They must!

Carbon is a better conductor than aluminum.
2 piece mast, non-conductor,flotation to leave freeboard when holed,...
So much for a cutting edge choice, unless some builders and designers really sharpen their pencils and get at it.

Dang, missed that electrically conductive part when I first read the rules, that is straight up tailor made for a H16 and complete and utter B.S.

I would think you just need an insulating material, not necessarily the need to replace the mast with a non-conductive material?

Maybe the ISAF just want to get the most popular beach cat in the world ushered into the Olympics? I really have little desire to race a H16 w/ spin around the course when there are so many better boats out there already.

Sam, you're still not reading well. The Hobie 16 doesn't meet all the criteria, firstly - there's no conspiracy. Secondly and more important, the criteria includes provision for 40-foot containers and the score color-coding makes it clear that a submission need not meet every criterion.

Any class or manufacturer can submit whatever they choose.

Does the H16 meet this "athletically challenging to the elite sailors of the world" ?

That's a pretty insulting comment. You ever sail a 16 in big breeze and waves?

The top of the weight range is 308 lbs.

That really drops the boats to the 16 foot range.. (unless the builders down size the rigs on the 18 and 20 footers.

Still... the boat that meets the criteria today is the Hobie 16's with comp tips and spins used for the ISAF youth worlds in Cork...(looking at one at my club now)

I would have like to have seen a bit more on the performance standards to meet... Not falling apart in 30k... is a bit of a broad standard.

So you're basically saying only the T will do?

How many couch potatoes do you see sailing at the top of the H16 class? Come on people would a H16 w/spin at the olympics be the end of the world? It's still great sailors doing amazing things. I guarantee you the non-sailing public isn't going to give two sh!ts what it's on. When the rubber hits the road there are way more poeple familiar with a H16 than any other multihull on the planet.

What other Olympic classes satisfy the insulation criterion?

Would you be more insulted if he went after this:

Does the H16 meet this "have visual appeal for spectators, media and sailors"



Mike

Wow... another scary moment. Dave and I agree again!

The public will tune in every four years for a week. The boats will never look like the AC boats that are now defining the pinnacle of the sport and occasionally make the news. The olympic mixed multihull will be a week long competition and then it will fade away until the next cycle. The public will cheer for their countryman... just like I cheer for the US curling team..... (I don't care about the rocks they push.) Mixed events are unusual though.

Times are changing... For us cat sailors...In the past... the Olympic T class development drove a lot of the development that trickled down to the SMOD classes and then the Formula Classes. The Olympic boat and sailors mattered to us as the biggest baddest boat that required the best sailors... In a Mixed event Hobie 16 with spin future... Development will not be an issue.... those mixed teams will just go racing at the seven or so ISAF grade I events on 16 foot boats. Will they be the best cat sailors in the world? ... Probably not with the America's Cup running on cats. The Mixed olympic Multihull class will simply mean something else to the cat sailing world.

I was with you right up to the end. I wouldn't say that the Olympic sailors won't be the best on the smaller cats due to the AC, any more than saying the same would be true with the keelboats back when the AC was on monohulls.

It's always been a different group of sailors. The Olympics tend to feed the super-high-end regattas (AC, VOR, etc.); as that's where the money is. Said another way, an Olympic medal is a pre-requisite to get the top-paying rides at other major events.

My two cents, YMMV...

Mike

A lot of people seem to be in an awful hurry to assume that it will be the H16. Seems premature.

They look kool against 420s,

but while racing against the top shelf Formula 16s, 18s, and the slippery, hard - chined, decked NACRA Formula 20 C, the design might lack media appeal.

How about the USA worry more about team training rather than comp tips ---lobbying; Go Figure!

I say we spend two years defining 'Mixed' as Youth/Adult or Male/Female. In 2014 we go 'Mixed' as Male/Female.

A five minute chat with any of the carbon mast makers will get them started on a Carbon Rig with an outer layer of glass and a sleeve at the hounds, thus removing the need to sail h16s. Given the long term sales possibility I wouldn't be surprised to hear that southern etc are already working on stock products to offer AHPC and Nacra for their f16 products.

I second your note on carbon masts. Surely there is some dielectric material they could add to the outer coatings to achieve some modicum of resistance to conductivity?

The specs are isolation not insulation. There are several ways to acheive this.

and there you have it! carbon wings it is....

Doesn't that Dragoon thing have more floatation than the H-16?

a layer or two of some light fiberglass would do it.

Here's a question...

Why are they asking for that?

How many boats in Southern Europe already have that requirement?

Anyone will be able to submit their boat even if it doesn't meet the spec. ISAF will then do a paper evaluation and invite selected boats to the trial. It doesn't mean that even these shortlisted boats have to adhere to all the requirements in the spec, however, I'm sure there are a few show stoppers and some "nice to haves".

For example, it says Sloop Rig, but if someone can come up with a good arguement why a cat rigged boat with a spinnaker would work, then I'm sure it would be in the mix.

And I can't speak for Hobie Cat, but I would be surprised if they even put forward the Hobie 16.

If I sit on the ISAF committe... I know that all of my money comes from the Olympics... I know that the IOC wants the best and truly world wide competition. I know I have a unique / weird event... no other sailing competition is mandatory mixed.... so... automatically, I have the best in the world.. but nobody competes right now... and no equipment is favored.

So, what I really want to know ... what the vision is of this event within the Sailing games within the big picture. If I am a builder... I ALSO want to know what the vision is... Do you want a high tech marvel... baby tornado... or something more accessible.

You note that anyone can submit their boat on paper ... and then wait for the invite.. However, the spec's have these quirks... non conducting two part masts... which are NOT present in the world today and the market has clearly not asked for... so Why such an oddly constrained request?

I would go low end... accessible.. If not the hobie 16... something low tech and affordable.

Mike... I disagree with you on this last point... After they dumped the Tornado and Before the AC changes.. The elite, best in the world, Multi sailors were Bundy, Asby, Booth Ogletree, and the other top 10 Olympic sailors. This was it... Most importantly... there was no place to go... These guys did not get rides on the big monohulls... Their careers were racing the elite small cats. (The ocean racing game is very different).

So.. the Olympics were the ultimate and final level for multi sailors. Now with the AC cup action... All the sailors I mention have moved up... and the elite mulithull game has exploded as other pro's come into the game... Spithill... Hutchinson... etc.

Mixed Multihull Olympic competition will never be the ultimate level. (Expecially since no other competition is mixed) AND the myth that there was something unique about sailing a multi at the top level has been exploded... (Hutch... spithill...etc).

Olympic multihull sailing will not be the pinnacle of our sport... It will be a quirky competition every 4 years and I will applaud the sailors who compete and win.

In france a few vipers (F16) are already sailing with a carbon mast.

Mark, you seem to have forgotten the other major (paying) multihull events, such as Extreme 40s; and I would not discount those giant trimarans that race across the oceans, around the world, etc. Those events give the Olympic sailors something to do post-Olympics.

Most of the sailors on those boats were in the Olympics first. I don't see a change, the AC (on cats) is just one more high-octane, paying event that is taking former Olympic sailors.

Mike

From SA

We are shocked. We cannot believe it. The ISAF presented the rules for the Mixed-Multihull evaluation trials yesterday, and incredibly, they have excluded the Tornado Class from competing in the trial! The Tornado class is the forerunner in Mixed Multihull Sailing, is an amazing performer, and has a great Olympic History. None of this matters to the ISAF Technical Committees. Their rules for the trials:

20-Foot Container
ISAF restricted the length of the new multihull to be a max of 5.898m (the inner length of an 20 Foot container), but no one will travel with a 20-foot container. Anyone who ships boats around knows that a 20’ box is too small to be economically (or environmentally) friendly for long distance travel when shipping anything bigger than Lasers, and that 20-footers are frequently more expensive to move than 40 footers. If you want eco-friendly, economically efficient transport, the Tornado has been doing it for literally decades (10 Tornados plus coach boat plus all equipment in one container) with 40 footers. Why the unreasonable restriction?

2-Piece Mast Required
A two-piece mast is heavier than a one-piece mast. It’s more complicated and far more expensive to construct. It’s less reliable and more subject to breaking. It’s harder to make it watertight. Over time, the juncture can loosen up and change bend characteristics; you can even change mast bending just by playing with the joint. Two piece masts do only one thing well: Fit in 20-foot containers that won’t be used anyway.


120-140kg Crew Weights
Wow – another class like the 470, windsurfers, and 49ers goes the featherweight route! For 2016, an average man of 80 kg has no chance any more. With the Star and Eliot out for 2016 and the multihull going the waif route, only the thinnest and wiriest of athletes will be able to sail for a gold unless your name is Ainslie.

Many mixed-multihull teams, including some extremely successful ones, weigh well above 140 kg. And the new average weight of a mixed team should be 130kgs? This could disqualify 50% of all mixed sailing teams even with dieting.

What weight statistics ISAF used? If you watch real Olympic Athletes and normal average weight statistics, we end up above 140kgs. The 120-140kg team weights with an average of 130kg forces bulimia for Olympic Athletes. Check this.

National Sailing Federations - MNAs
They lost the Starboat. They lost the Elliots. Now they lose the Tornados, which are ready to sail on all continents today. Let’s ask the MNAs what they think about this. Every 4 years the MNAs have to buy new Olympic sailing equipment? Who should finance this?

Media
ISAF want have a small boat. The media will have less interest in it. Sailors get fewer sponsors because the boats are less impactful. This means: Downsize Olympic Multihull Sailing…so the media won’t pay attention…

ISAF Committees
If you looked carefully inside the technical committees of the ISAF, you see sailors with great commercial interest who create the rules the way it fits perfectly to their boats/products they sell. The Tornado Class is a real non-profit organization, but what about the commercial interests of some sailors on the inside? Is it possible that a few bad apples, with a say in the rules, weren’t happy enough to have kicked the Tornado out of the Olympics four years ago so they kicked it out again – but this time, even before reaching the starting line of the ISAF trials? It might just be.

ISAF must act now!
There is only one way to come out of this dilemma. Change the rules and allow the original “Tornado” to sail the ISAF evaluation trials! E-mail me if you think you can help!

Best regards,

Roland Gaebler, Tornado Class President

The Tornado is not ruled out, it just needs a new mast and a slice out of the bows, not really a big deal.

About the requirement to fit into a 20 ft container:
When you have enough boats you can ship twice the number of boats of a 20ft container in a 40 ft one with all the ecologic and economic benefits of it. However, If you have just a few boats, a 20 ft container will be viable and a lot less expensive. Makes sense to me.

I agree that the weight requirement favors a smaller boat. The committee is probably thinking 16 ft. Interestingly the three ISAF guys with whom I talked last week were all thinking F18. They are monohullers, never heard of the F16 and this can probably be credited to a slight but noticeable bias towards Argentina, the only place in S.America where there is an F18 class and an F18 builder.

I guess the requirement of a mast with the same characteristics Hobies have to use in the US is meant to allow Hobie to have a shot at it. Without this requirement they would be in obvious disadvantage vis-a-vis Nacra.

What about an F18 with a wing?
From what I understand it is good at depowering which is good for a light teams, has lower sheet loads for female crews, and is easy to take apart for shipping.
Pricing might be a little higher but you wont have to replace a sail every few months.

Only every time you capsize

The AC guys have actually proposed a 20ft cat with a wing mast for the Olympics. While it does seem quite a leap from what we have currently, there are some very good reasons why it does make sense. They are saying the cost is something like 3,000 Euros (from memory - please don't take this as gospel) more than a soft sailed boat.

I too was pretty sceptical about the issue of damage during capsize, but if you have watched the videos from Plymouth you will see that the only issue is when a crew member falls into the wing - the same problem as if you fall into a soft sail. Compare this to when the guy fell into their carbon mast in Qingdao and broke it in two in the Extreme 40's.

And the skin material is extremely strong and quite inexpensive. $NZ67 worth of material to reskin an AC45, and it is a low skilled job to reglue a new skin.

Would be a kick in the pants, but just not sure if it is what we need in the Olympics.

I would be the first to put my hand up for a sail on one!

So PLEASE, everyone, have a good read of the spec. I didn't write it, but read the details. If a boat doesn't meet all the criteria, then it is NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDED. Manufacturers just have to come up with reasons why their boat is the best, and they may lose points if they don't fully meet all the requirements in the spec.

At least they didn't include rubber bumpers on the bows in the requirements this time !

Last time I checked the 4.9er masts didn't fit inside a 20 foot container and don't come as a disassemble-able two-piece item either.

Wouter

Yep; is was fun.

Wouter,

Correct, 49ers don't come with a 2 piece mast. They come as a three piece mast.

http://www.southernspars.com/images/library/File/49erUsers_Manual_2010.pdf

I'm aware of that but the joining of the parts is rather permanent. It is not designed to be taken apart regulary for transport. Neither do you want to as you have to take everything off, the multiple diamond wires etc. You loose all trim settings and the bloody thing is stuck half the time because it is hardly ever taken apart or at least it was on the boat i sailed for awhile. We had to hammer it apart (HARD) till we found another way to run any lines through the mast after a mishap. Not something I like to do with a competitive mast.

Come to think of it. I dislike that 49er mast as it leaked like I don't know what, making righing the boat a pain as you always had to wait for the water to drain out through those tiny holes. Not an issue i would like to see repeated on the olympic cat. So other than divisible the cat mast joint better be watertight. To much effort or a feature no- one will use anyway, in my opinion.

But other then that you are right. The mast is a 3-piece section and can theoretically be taken apart. Or better put, it looks that way on paper and that is what counts these days.

Wouter

Wow. Just wow. I'm all for freedom of speech and everything, but wow...

Less than a fraction of ONE PERCENT of all of us on this forum have a remote chance (or let's face it, real interest) in actually sailing in an Oly trial, let alone qualifying for the games; no matter what cat design is specified or ultimately selected (on anything from H16 to Tornado to something new with a wing).

So, our interest can only be as spectators. Why are we spending so much energy spouting off about all the things that are wrong with the proposal, rather than helping get behind a boat that will meet the requirements and get selected?

Better than that, start helping some sailors train (or at least raise money) so that when the time comes, they can qualify and ultimately win the event?

After all, it's supposed to be about the sailors, not the boats, right?

And don't wind up about mixed crews anymore. It's not like you were on a two-man crew waiting in the wings to get called to Rio. God forbid you get to watch a girl sail on a catamaran...

Mike

I forsee a proposal that includes an outdated F18 with a carbon mast, reduced sails and a agreement to supply charter boats for the Games

Be sure to read the full text on the linked document. It is fairly clear the specs are an ideal and that boats will be rated on how close they meet them.
No boats are excluded from applying to the trials by anything in the specs. And since there is no one boat anyone can think of that meets all the listed specs, (does an H16 support both crew with both hulls fully flooded? [Heck, it barely does before flooding ;)] ) there are no shoe-in's for getting into the trials.

I definately look at the Olympics from the spectator side and that is important from a promotion of cat sailing perspective. How fast will the cats be going in 6 knots of wind on a 16ft cat with 140kg crew? The cats have to be exciting the whole Olympics not just the lucky windy day. Any decent skipper no matter what weight will keep a Tornado humming in light or heavy wind, they can wild thing in light and still go fast, don't tell me a Viper of Hobie 16 will still power on in the light. If its too windy for a light crew on the T with a full rig they can put a smaller sail on if they need to. As for limiting the weight to 140kg that puts this 15yo, 75kg girl, crewing on the Taipan 5.7 out of dreaming about the Olympics

As a matter of fact, it does. Unlike most "modern" boats, the H16 has a foam flotation block in the hulls that will prevent it from sinking, even if both hulls are compromised.

She'll drop 5kg in Olympic prep. I don't think the 140kg weight range is really that limiting (median for a mixed Olympic crew globally is 138kg per SA/google)

I do think keeping a hull airborne for the spectators is going to be needed no matter what conditions. Put a hull flying event in and that will keep the media appeal up.

Beat me to it, Matt. I've seen H16s float with a ridiculous about of damage, as well as (several) H17s and H18s with bows ripped completely off.

EDIT: I don't recall ever seeing a boat with both hulls ripped open, it's definitely possible (a boat "giving" the T-bone, as opposed to "receiving" the T-bone, might get both bows comprimised)...

Mike

Sad, but true.

Since dreaming is free and given the ISAF specs, a new 15 ft cat with a two part wing would be my personal favorite.

Why small? Because a small wing is a lot less trouble to build, handle and store, the boat would be cheaper, novices would be able to sail it and the fun is guaranteed for kids/teens, so it would have the potential to atract new sailors at their youth.

A modified Tornado or F18 will be too big/heavy for the weight range and are unlikely to atract young sailors.

The F16 is close to ideal, but with the addition of a wing, 16 ft may be too big for the specified weight range.

can a wing be designed to ship in several pieces meeting that 2-part mast spec?

So, maybe an F-18 style with wing, self-tack jib and spin? Could it be designed to convert a standard F-18 platform with a wing sail to promote interchangability (olympic / fleet)

Yes.
Ben Hall's A Class wing split into two parts, lower and upper.



Easy. Just build an F18 as light as possible and then add 100 lb ballast to race in the F18 class.