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NACRA I20

Posted By: evansdb78

NACRA I20 - 10/09/11 07:49 PM

I purchased my N20 in January, it's an 07 and has all the updates as far as I know. There are a couple things I have questions about. First is the main sheet. It seems to be short. For example the boom cannot travel much further out than the stern crossbeam. (I think this is so it cannot hit the boards when they are up, also when going down wind the boom is usually kept centered.) The first time I had a problem was this weekend. I was sailing and the wind started gusting to over 30 knots. I think if I were able to sheet out more on the main I could have kept the boat from flipping.

Do any of the hard core guys use a longer main sheet to allow you to completely dump the main?

My second question: Do you guys use the jib car limiter for trim or is it there to keep the car from slamming into the ends of the jib track?

Last question: Do you set the spinnaker luff tension for conditions? For example in lighter air do you let the spinnaker tack a few inches out, and in heavy air keep it tight?

Thanks.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 01:58 AM

On the mainsheet issue, did you have enough sheet to let the traveler all the way out, and also ease the mainsheet?

When you are going downwind in big wind, you don't want the traveler centered, and you also want the daggers way up if you are getting gusts to 30 and not racing toward a mark, but just trying not to flip it. Here's a thought, are you sure there isn't a spare 10 foot piece of line, for the traveler, hanging around somewhere? If not, you can easily add one, then tie it off to the tail of the mainsheet and that should give you 10 more feet of mainsheet, assuming the mainsheet you have now is also going through the traveler car.
Posted By: Keith

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 03:35 AM

As for the jib limiter, it depends on the jib. I have one jib that needs it to set right. I have one that works fine without it. See what works for you...

Posted By: evansdb78

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 03:53 AM

Thanks for the replies. That answers my question on the jib. The traveler line and main sheet are separate. I can let the traveler out all the way. Problem is the main sheet seems short as I cannot get the boom all the way out. In the high winds I could not round up. I had to keep the boat driving down and eventually stood it on the bows, rudders out of the water and the boat laid sideways. Also we were reaching before the storm hit. Once it hit I didn't want to send the crew down to retract the board. Plus I doubt he'd be able to get them up with the load.

What about the spin?

I have video of it I'll post soon.
Posted By: BLR_0719

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 04:36 AM

The spin luff should be kept pretty tight. A general guide to check the tension is to set the spin and grip the luff in your hand. With proper tension you should only be able to rotate your hand about 90 degrees.

As for the tack line, it should stay put. I've seen people ease the hailyard a few inches in certain conditions but 99.9% of the time the tack and hailyard should remain fixed.

As for the main, you shouldn't need to dump it as far as you are describing. Sailing downwind without the spin and just dumping the main is begging to pitchpole. It might sound scary, but you will be more in control of the boat in heavy winds with the spin up versus keeping it down and dumping the main.
Posted By: Codblow

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 11:51 AM

never mind snapping the mast !!!!!!
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by BLR_0719
The spin luff should be kept pretty tight. A general guide to check the tension is to set the spin and grip the luff in your hand. With proper tension you should only be able to rotate your hand about 90 degrees.

As for the tack line, it should stay put. I've seen people ease the hailyard a few inches in certain conditions but 99.9% of the time the tack and hailyard should remain fixed.

As for the main, you shouldn't need to dump it as far as you are describing. Sailing downwind without the spin and just dumping the main is begging to pitchpole. It might sound scary, but you will be more in control of the boat in heavy winds with the spin up versus keeping it down and dumping the main.


Well....true to a point. Water conditions play a roll but typically if it's over 30 you'll never survive with the spin up.

I'm still not sure I follow you with your mainsheet length. With the traveler all the way out, you probably shouldn't be able to sheet out enough to hit the daggerboard. I seem to remember it being close, but not far enough. Over time, I tend to shorten my mainsheet as much as possible so there's not so much slack to manage. When trying to round up in those conditions, it's important to manage your speed and try and gain some before making the turn. It's a little counter-intuitive but if you pick up speed, your apparent wind moves further forward and then you can make your turn without the wind hammering you at 90 degrees. Typically, though, it's the bear away in those conditions that's so tough.
Posted By: evansdb78

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 12:13 PM

Ok, thanks for all the info. I did post the video. In the video before we stuffed it I eased the traveler all the way. Also the main sheet is eased completely. I do understand about flying the spin down wind to keep the bows up. But was not going to try in those conditions. I was happy our capsize was so mild.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 12:49 PM

Having taken a look at your video -

I didn't see a boom on the boat. It could just be my bad eyes but I didn't see one there. That what is causing a lot of your problems being overpowered downwind.

Second, it seems to me as if the sail wasn't fully hoisted to the top. This is adding even more bag to the sail that doesn't want to be there. If it is fully hoisted then it looked like you could add some downhaul on there.

Then you had your boards all the way down - which in heavy air can cause the boat to "trip" over itself sideways.

When I was learning how to skipper my boat - I flipped it during a round up and did a lot of damage to my boat and myself. Had to get it dragged on its side back to the beach. I can only imagine how much more difficult it is for a disabled sailing crew to manage the N20 in those beastly conditions.

Kudos!
Posted By: evansdb78

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 02:04 PM

The boom is there, and the main is locked in with downhaul on, as well as outhaul. We had de-rotated the mast but it looks out.

Next time hopefully have the boards up I'm sure that would have helped.

We were lucky a friend of ours jumped in. He's in the vid towards the end. He assisted getting the sails down so we could tow it back upright. I would hate to have to tow it back on it's side. Doubt it would make it.

Thanks.
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by evansdb78
The boom is there, and the main is locked in with downhaul on, as well as outhaul. We had de-rotated the mast but it looks out.

Next time hopefully have the boards up I'm sure that would have helped.

We were lucky a friend of ours jumped in. He's in the vid towards the end. He assisted getting the sails down so we could tow it back upright. I would hate to have to tow it back on it's side. Doubt it would make it.

Thanks.


Towing it on it's side with the sails up can turn out badly...just ask Mr. Undecided up there! The boat could right itself and start chasing the tow boat. This one rammed it.

Part 1: http://www.teamseacats.com/2008/02/19/a-crushing-defeat/
Part 2: http://www.teamseacats.com/2008/03/03/fiberglass-repair-by-airmail/
Part 3: http://www.teamseacats.com/2008/03/19/jeckle-and-hyde/


Reminiscing about that repair job makes me o-so-glad that my garage is almost finished!

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 06:35 PM

Jake.

I will have to give you a swirly next time I see you.

I have tried to repress those memories like they were a case of molestation.

(Thank you again for doing that work. That bow is still kicking strong!)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/10/11 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Jake.

I will have to give you a swirly next time I see you.

I have tried to repress those memories like they were a case of molestation.

(Thank you again for doing that work. That bow is still kicking strong!)

No good deed goes unpunished
Posted By: Timbo

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by evansdb78
The boom is there, and the main is locked in with downhaul on, as well as outhaul. We had de-rotated the mast but it looks out.

Next time hopefully have the boards up I'm sure that would have helped.

We were lucky a friend of ours jumped in. He's in the vid towards the end. He assisted getting the sails down so we could tow it back upright. I would hate to have to tow it back on it's side. Doubt it would make it.

Thanks.



You were lucky, being out there in that stuff! Look what happened to this group:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpps/news/nat...0-hours-in-florida-waters-1-dead_3961548


And watch out up the East Coast, that same weather system is coming to you tomorrow!

http://www.weather.com/weather/aler...r=radar&zoom=7&camefrom=national
Posted By: AzCat

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 03:00 AM

Jake, is the white on the I20 a pure white or do I need to get a mix? I recently purchased a N20 and need to do a couple repairs. I know I saw something about it somewhere on this site, but I cant get much from the site search.
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by azcat
Jake, is the white on the I20 a pure white or do I need to get a mix? I recently purchased a N20 and need to do a couple repairs. I know I saw something about it somewhere on this site, but I cant get much from the site search.


I have had good luck with straight white gelcoat making a good match on Nacras. The repair I did on our Infusion matched perfectly (white gelcoat from http://www.uscomposites.com/) and I had the same great match with a repair on my '04 F18. I can't promise that all whites are the same...AHPC uses a touch of grey in their white gelcoat and are really nice that they include this coloring information on a laminated decal inside the hulls. You should be good to go with a standard white on the Nacra. I have the vendor info in California that Nacra used for their gelcoat if you need that too (I'll have to find it).


[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]




Posted By: Anonymous

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo


You were lucky, being out there in that stuff! Look what happened to this group:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpps/news/nat...0-hours-in-florida-waters-1-dead_3961548


And watch out up the East Coast, that same weather system is coming to you tomorrow!

http://www.weather.com/weather/aler...r=radar&zoom=7&camefrom=national


I am sorry but taking an 80 and 4 year old out in 20-40 mph wind and rain (on a small fishing boat) is moronic. You want to risk your own life.. .fine, you want to risk your kid and parents life.... idiotic

Posted By: Timbo

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 02:40 PM

I agree completely! But I am always amazed at how many morons there are who do this type of thing all the time. I guess it keeps the Coat Guard in business!

Go Robi! Find the missing morons!

As a side job, I fly a small 2 seater for the local Sheriff's Dept. Several years ago I got called out early one morning to look for 3 guys who decided to go night fishing...in a 14' jon boat, on Lake Istapoga (about 25 miles long, 5 miles wide) when it was blowing 20+ with squals coming through all night.

The boat swamped (geez...who woulda thought?) and two of them were found along the downwind shore (dead) but the 3rd was never recoverd (gator bait).

Brilliant. But it was fun, flying around at 100' over the lake looking for them, so it wasn't all bad. I just hope they "Darwin'd Out" before they had a chance to reproduce.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by azcat
Jake, is the white on the I20 a pure white or do I need to get a mix? I recently purchased a N20 and need to do a couple repairs. I know I saw something about it somewhere on this site, but I cant get much from the site search.


You may want to consider a gelcoat matching kit, which comes with a few different colors to mix. I think some of the older I20/N20 may need just a tinge of yellow to match perfectly, although I usually used straight white with good results. You had to know where to look (and look pretty closely) to find the repairs. Granted, I never tackled anything close to what Jake has, but it seemed like any big regatta always turned up some nicks/scratches that needed touch-up...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 03:58 PM

What's the Official Nacra gelcoat color for The Flesh Rocket?

;^)
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
What's the Official Nacra gelcoat color for The Flesh Rocket?

;^)


I'm not sure that appears in any catalog. It was chosen / mixed specifically to match the front door of a sponsor's house.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/11/11 06:54 PM

I just did a gelcoat job on ole Undecided (removed some old ugly rusted out footstrap bolts) and I used the stock West Marine gelcoat. It came out a bit more brown/yellow once it fully cured than the white of the rest of the boat.

So get the color matching kit for like $40 and do thorough testing before you actually lay down the final coats.

If all else fails, then contact Sher-fab and ask them if they have records of the white that performance cat/Nacra used.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/12/11 12:28 AM

Quote
I'm not sure that appears in any catalog. It was chosen / mixed specifically to match the front door of a sponsor's house.


Chuck told me that one sponsor wanted the boat to be the color of a "Georgia Peach", so he told Jack they wanted a Peach colored boat. Jack saw the color that was listed as peach and asked Chuck if he was sure he wanted that color. Without looking at it (over the phone) ...the rest is history.
Posted By: chipshort

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/12/11 02:10 AM

Peach my butt, that boat was pink.
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/12/11 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by chipshort
Peach my butt, that boat was pink.


"pink" or "disturbingly flesh colored" as JW dubbed it?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/12/11 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by chipshort
Peach my butt, that boat was pink.


A very UN-ripe peach.
Posted By: Will_R

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/12/11 04:59 PM

Something that nobody else has mentioned it easing the main downwind.

If you've got the spinnaker up, no brainer, tight main sheet.

If you're in survival mode (30 isn't survival mode) with the spinnaker down, easing the main all the way is detrimental. If you keep the traveler closer to center and sheeted tighter, you won't be presenting as much direct surface area to the wind and therefore will have less force trying to pitchpole the boat.

And "Peaches" as the boat was called when it was first unveiled (how many years ago?).... Yeah, we all called it something else that started with a P when we saw it. Really should have faded the gel coat to a darker color at the front wink
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 12:38 AM

Guys the boat's name is Flesh Rocket.

Call it anything else and you'll hurt Bryan's feelings.
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 04:10 AM


If you're in survival mode (30 isn't survival mode) with the spinnaker down, easing the main all the way is detrimental. If you keep the traveler closer to center and sheeted tighter, you won't be presenting as much direct surface area to the wind and therefore will have less force trying to pitchpole the boat.

Yeah, that's my operating principle as well, although the harder it blows, the deeper you have to drive to stay depowered, and eventually you're very close to dead down wind, and a possible accidental jibe. Which is very hard to recover from quickly enough, if at all. At which point you're probably better off taking the main down, difficult as that is. Particularly if you have to round up to head into the wind.


Dave
Posted By: I20RI

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 11:25 AM

how you gonna get the main down with a halyard lock going ddw?
Posted By: Jake

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by davefarmer

If you're in survival mode (30 isn't survival mode) with the spinnaker down, easing the main all the way is detrimental. If you keep the traveler closer to center and sheeted tighter, you won't be presenting as much direct surface area to the wind and therefore will have less force trying to pitchpole the boat.

Yeah, that's my operating principle as well, although the harder it blows, the deeper you have to drive to stay depowered, and eventually you're very close to dead down wind, and a possible accidental jibe. Which is very hard to recover from quickly enough, if at all. At which point you're probably better off taking the main down, difficult as that is. Particularly if you have to round up to head into the wind.


Dave


I've spun out like that before too where the main caught air in a puff/shift and overpowered the rudders. The N20 pin head rudders don't have a whole lot of margin in that regard. If it surprise gybes on you when you have the sheet/traveler more centered, it will most definitely spin out and capsize.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 01:19 PM

so, the consensus seems to be that you're going to flip anyway, so pick the way that causes the least amount of damage/injury. I would presume a flip would be less injurous than a pitch pole..?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 02:51 PM

You're not going to do it DDW without a knife..

Go head to wind and drop the main.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 03:25 PM

I finally watched the video last night. One of the things that caught my eye is that the mast was rotated out quite a bit. With 10:1 downhauls and squaretop mains pulling the rotator all the way in is the way to depower, which is the exact opposite thing you would do on say a Hobie 18 pinhead main.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
I finally watched the video last night. One of the things that caught my eye is that the mast was rotated out quite a bit. With 10:1 downhauls and squaretop mains pulling the rotator all the way in is the way to depower, which is the exact opposite thing you would do on say a Hobie 18 pinhead main.


All the way or to the back beam bolts?
Posted By: Will_R

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
All the way or to the back beam bolts?


Line that bad boy up as close to the boom as you can. Keeping the roatation close to the boom will also protect the mast by limiting the amount of swing and keeping the most rigid cross section lined up with the load. This will also, hopefully limit the whiping going on up there.

Also consider the downhaul: Hammering it opens the leech and exposes more sail area while DDW. IMO, ease it enough to keep the leech semi closed, however you want to keep it on enough to take power out and support the mast.

When it gets hairy and you have to go head-to, rememeber to ease the DH then as well.
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/13/11 09:34 PM

Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? or stalled?
Sailing stalled out (falling in an airplane) with managed projected area (twist or travel) is the key to reducing the excess of wind power you are experiencing. Every notice how slow it is when the crew oversheets the jib, he is depowering/STALLING the sails.
Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Sailing stalled out with managed projected area is the key to reducing the excess of wind power you are experiencing.

I addition to getting your weight back, pull your main traveller (& jib) near the center of the boat with minimal twist(sheet in tight), steering ALMOST Dead Down Wind. The closer the mainsail is to the centerline the smaller the projected sail area to the wind reducing wind force and pitchpoling. This sail configuration puts the sail in a STALL, like an airplane falling through the air NEGATING lift.

For steering DDW try using the following (3)three indicators,
that kind of 'check and balance' each other.
First, the bow wind indicator.
Second, pay attention to the feel on helm.
You can maintain a very slight weather to neutral helm with the sails stalled out.
If the helm goes a lee you WILL eventually jibe,
so push the helm away from you to get back to neutral helm.
If the weather helm helm increases pull the stick to get back/close to neutral helm.
Finally, with the jib strapped in (stalled) watch which side the jib FAVORS, as it oscillates
back and forth (how it behaves) out of the corner of your eye, and react accordingly.
This is useful when it is raining so hard you can not see the bridal fly.

Looking behind you, often helps, as you can sheet in before the puff (dark water)
hits you. Its fun watching the other boats go over next to you, as they let OUT their sails.

With the sails stalled the effective shape looks like a big fat wedge whose lee side isn't bending the wind near as much as you'd like, so the lift (component of the force at right angles to the apparent wind) is much less and the drag (component of the force parallel to the apparent wind) is excessive. The combination of the two is smaller and points aft, robbing the boat of the drive.

The above has kept me upright in registered 40kn wind in the "Round the Island" Florida race on a H20.

**************************************
So downwind try sheeting in the jib in the puffs to stall out.
To depower more travel in the main to reduce projected sail.
To depower more and stall out reduce twist(sheet in)
and enter the 'Stalled Out Zone'.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 20nt is SLOW)
**************************************
Posted By: bacho

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/14/11 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
I finally watched the video last night. One of the things that caught my eye is that the mast was rotated out quite a bit. With 10:1 downhauls and squaretop mains pulling the rotator all the way in is the way to depower, which is the exact opposite thing you would do on say a Hobie 18 pinhead main.


Thanks, That clears up some of the confusion I had with the strategies of the rotator on my N20 vs my previous Hobie 18.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: NACRA I20 - 10/14/11 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by sail7seas
Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? or stalled?
Sailing stalled out (falling in an airplane) with managed projected area (twist or travel) is the key to reducing the excess of wind power you are experiencing. Every notice how slow it is when the crew oversheets the jib, he is depowering/STALLING the sails.
Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Sailing stalled out with managed projected area is the key to reducing the excess of wind power you are experiencing.

I addition to getting your weight back, pull your main traveller (& jib) near the center of the boat with minimal twist(sheet in tight), steering ALMOST Dead Down Wind. The closer the mainsail is to the centerline the smaller the projected sail area to the wind reducing wind force and pitchpoling. This sail configuration puts the sail in a STALL, like an airplane falling through the air NEGATING lift.

For steering DDW try using the following (3)three indicators,
that kind of 'check and balance' each other.
First, the bow wind indicator.
Second, pay attention to the feel on helm.
You can maintain a very slight weather to neutral helm with the sails stalled out.
If the helm goes a lee you WILL eventually jibe,
so push the helm away from you to get back to neutral helm.
If the weather helm helm increases pull the stick to get back/close to neutral helm.
Finally, with the jib strapped in (stalled) watch which side the jib FAVORS, as it oscillates
back and forth (how it behaves) out of the corner of your eye, and react accordingly.
This is useful when it is raining so hard you can not see the bridal fly.

Looking behind you, often helps, as you can sheet in before the puff (dark water)
hits you. Its fun watching the other boats go over next to you, as they let OUT their sails.

With the sails stalled the effective shape looks like a big fat wedge whose lee side isn't bending the wind near as much as you'd like, so the lift (component of the force at right angles to the apparent wind) is much less and the drag (component of the force parallel to the apparent wind) is excessive. The combination of the two is smaller and points aft, robbing the boat of the drive.

The above has kept me upright in registered 40kn wind in the "Round the Island" Florida race on a H20.

**************************************
So downwind try sheeting in the jib in the puffs to stall out.
To depower more travel in the main to reduce projected sail.
To depower more and stall out reduce twist(sheet in)
and enter the 'Stalled Out Zone'.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 20nt is SLOW)
**************************************


The more nulear it gets, I totally agree with this post.
IMHO
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