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Basic sailing techniques

Posted By: pgp

Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 06:26 PM

I'm all ears.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 06:31 PM

It's a complete waste of effort if your boat's not tuned right.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 06:45 PM

Hilarious
Posted By: Don_Atchley

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 07:39 PM

It's like Groundhog Day all over again.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 08:29 PM

Well, you guys wonder why the sport is declining but neither of these terms is well understood or defined. There is no easily readable reference that helps the beginner much less the intermediate sailor.

This is all I set out to do, and I'm satisfied with the result:

http://connect.garmin.com/player/91690890

No pictures but I do have a witness.

Posted By: mini

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Well, you guys wonder why the sport is declining but neither of these terms is well understood or defined. There is no easily readable reference that helps the beginner much less the intermediate sailor.

This is all I set out to do, and I'm satisfied with the result:

http://connect.garmin.com/player/91690890

No pictures but I do have a witness.



BS

Sailing is in decline because people are too lazy to bother to take the time to learn. They want a magic setting or some miracle technique provided to them on an internet forum.

Anyone can learn to sail in a few hours and be more or less able to get back to where they started. It takes years though to be able to do it fast, and to compete at a high level most will never be able to generate the knowledge in combination with the feel.

There are a ton of books that give you all the information you need to be able to be a great sailor. Ricks right here is a very good one. They are books though, not snippet posts. And, you can read all you want, but you still have to covert that to practice and experience.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 09:14 PM

Does this help? (from here: http://ezinearticles.com/?Basic-Sailing-Techniques&id=3714857)

When interested in sailing a boat, the direction of the wind will determine the various movements associated with this invigorating activity. Before you attempt to take a vessel across the open water, you should first become familiar with some of the following important sailing techniques:

Steering and Turning

The techniques you use to change direction and steer a sailboat will become influenced by the direction of the wind. Some of the terms associated with direction changes or turns are referred to as tacking, heading up, heading down, or jibing.

Heading up (or luffing up) refers to the kind of steering where the wind is close to coming in direct contact with the front (or bow) of the sailboat. When you head closer to the wind, you need to "trim" the sails, which means bringing them closer to the center of the boat. When you head up where the wind is almost ahead, the sails will "luff," which means that they begin to flutter without any lift. If the boat becomes too hard to maneuver, then it enters a state called "in irons."

Tacking (or coming about) is one of the most basic of turning techniques of sailing, as it requires one to bring the bow of the boat through the wind so that the wind comes across the opposing side of the boat. The boat then sails away on the opposite tack.

"Heading down" is known by many different terms, including "bearing away," "bearing off," "falling off," and "freeing off." This technique of sailing involves steering in such a way that the wind comes from closer to the aft of the boat. The method includes easing the sails, which means to let them out away from the center of the vessel.

Jibing (also gibing) is a turning motion that causes the boat to head down past the point where the wind crosses at the stern of the sailboat. The sails and boom then swing to the opposite side just before the sailboat sails off on the opposite tack. Exercising caution is highly recommended when jibing, as the sail and boom can cross the middle of the boat with great speed where misjudgment can cause a small sailboat to tip over. Improper jibing may also hurt passengers not paying attention, as well as cause damage to the rig of a larger sailboat. All of these circumstances increase in risk during times of strong winds.

Trim

An important part of sailing involves keeping the boat in "trim," which deals with steering, balance, and other aspects. First, you will "Course to Steer," where the boat is turned towards your intended destination by using the wheel or tiller. People may choose a specific bearing (such as steering 180 degrees), aim for a particular landmark, or base their course in regards to the wind direction. Trim refers to the fore and aft balance of a sailboat. The goal is to adjust the movable ballast in a forward or backward motion in order to accomplish what is called an "even keel." When traveling an upwind course in a smaller sailboat, passengers often sit in the front. Positioning of passengers means less when the sailboat is larger or weighs more.

When balancing, it is the port and starboard that is involved, where the aim is to regulate the weight in order to avoid unnecessary heeling. Trimming sails is quite important, as the sail should be pulled in until it becomes filled with wind. It should not exceed the point where the front edge of the sail (the luff) becomes completely aligned with the wind.

While this is just a taste of common sailing techniques, it is also advised to seek information on "running," "reaching," sailing upward, reducing the sails, reefing, hulling, and learning the different sail points



Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3714857
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/08/11 10:16 PM

No,I just need to remember not to pinch.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Well, you guys wonder why the sport is declining but neither of these terms is well understood or defined. There is no easily readable reference that helps the beginner much less the intermediate sailor.

This is all I set out to do, and I'm satisfied with the result:

http://connect.garmin.com/player/91690890

No pictures but I do have a witness.



What terms? Rick White has an awesome book about sailing that got me started on the right foot and it's still available. There are tons of resources for this information.
Posted By: jkkartz1

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 02:23 PM

Someone over on Sa commented that rather than going for the latest gear upgrade, you should get a coach.

Go to one of Rick's or Robbie Daniel's seminars. Maybe hire John Casey for a day.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by jkkartz1
Someone over on Sa commented that rather than going for the latest gear upgrade, you should get a coach.

Go to one of Rick's or Robbie Daniel's seminars. Maybe hire John Casey for a day.



I've said that a couple of times myself. You do need to know the basics of how to get the cat around the course - but a one week coaching session can take at least three years off your "learning on your own" experience pace. I had three days of help from Robbie Daniels earlier this year and my upwind pace on my a-cat and F18 is dramatically improved.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 03:17 PM

when i started the sport, I took a lesson, I read every article online i could find, joined a few forums, and sailed every week. Then i met good sailors and sailed with them. There were plenty of resources for someone who really wants to learn.

PS i think cat sailing is in decline mostly due to the barriers to entry into the sport (equipment costs, equipment tranport) and other sports that have lots of thrills, and no equiipment to tow
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 04:10 PM

Yesterday, on a different thread, one of the guys suggested a thread specifically on tuning. So, I started the thread hoping to tune in, pun intended, and maybe pick up a few pointers. Then nature took its course...
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Yesterday, on a different thread, one of the guys suggested a thread specifically on tuning. So, I started the thread hoping to tune in, pun intended, and maybe pick up a few pointers. Then nature took its course...


I think if the inquiry was more specific, we would have something to discuss. These two inquiries are so general, it's on par with asking "how does the world economy work".
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 04:31 PM

I'm sure I missed an inside joke somewhere in the beginning of this thread, but this post concerns me:

"...PS i think cat sailing is in decline mostly due to the barriers to entry into the sport (equipment costs, equipment tranport) and other sports that have lots of thrills, and no equipment to tow..."

In my experience, if any portion of sailing is in decline (BTW, lots are of segments are declining, while others are growing), it is all about one very simple (yet so complex) issue:

What are YOU doing to get new sailors into the sport, and to keep them engaged?

Notice, I didn't ask what your fleet is doing, or what your class is doing, or what your fairy godmother is doing; but, what are YOU doing.

The only time I've ever seen growth in our sport is when individuals step up (normally with help from other individual members of a fleet) and make things happen.

Learn-to-Sail days, and the sorts of things that bring in new blood, are the only thing that will grow the sport.

Fun races, and small, focused race clinics (with beginner-to-intermediate focus), with good social events (campfires are usually the best), are key to helping them grow, stay engaged, and form bonds within the group.

Equipment is still cheap if you're using the right platform.

If you have "graduated" up to a big, complicated boat, your only hope to grow that class is to draw off of intermediate or high level sailors from existing classes. This does not have a net gain, the overall growth needs to come from the entry-level classes.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Yesterday, on a different thread, one of the guys suggested a thread specifically on tuning. So, I started the thread hoping to tune in, pun intended, and maybe pick up a few pointers. Then nature took its course...


Best way I've found in developing your own tuning "recipe" for your particular boat and sailing style is to sail and hang out with other folks. I've learned a few things on trim/tune/tactics from sailors in other fleets that can be applied (or modified) to the boat I happen to be on. The downwind trapping thing was new to me but showed serious speed on the 18s at T-winds. Had I not been there to see it, I wouldn't have been able to wrap my pea-brain around how that could be faster than driving deep downwind (VMG in living color)

I guess the other really good way would be to boat-whore. Looking at the folks who get nose-bleeds from standing so high on the podium you'll invariably find they sail a wide variety of boats, formats and venues. I would venture a shot of good rum that they developed their intuition on years and kilometers of hands-on time practicing, winning, losing, and working.

There is no magic number you can dial your boat to, so asking for settings is like asking for the best chocolate chip cookie recipe. What is your objective? Make the boat easier to handle (sometimes at the risk of going slower),faster (and oftentimes narrowing the performance "groove"), punch the chop better, etc.?

On a personal level, you've got the basics already in hand. The boat's tuned generally and now it's up to you and your "stick time". Worrying about your diamond wire tension (650# vs. 675#?) is less important than keeping the boat trimmed properly (pointy side up), making smooth transitions (tack/gybe, spin set/douse) and finding the best wind lane for your intended direction
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 05:44 PM

Mmmmmmm, cookies...

All kidding aside, best post ever.

Sailing with other people, in different areas is the single best way to get past the "You don't know what you don't know" problem.

Sailing at large fleet, high-caliber events (NAs) is also key. It's been said that the experience gained at one week of sailing at these events is equivalent to a year of weekend regattas.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 10:09 PM

Jay, my sailing is what it is!

I was thinking more of general discussions on this board.
If tuning is basic to the sport then frequent review is appropriate.

Posted By: bacho

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/09/11 11:29 PM

Its too hard to learn sailing alone. I sailed alone for a year on a laser. I learned how to make it to a destination and how to get back home. But I never could get it to go as fast as I thought it should. I learned exponentially more at my first Cat regatta with a coach over sailing alone for a year.

I try making all of the Regattas I can, I just take it easy and try not to run into anyone and learn from advise I get. Last week-end I thought I had done great in a race (for me) until I got told you need to keep the marks on the port side (Doh!) but that is something I never would have learned reading online, because its not something I would have ever thought to look up.

My next big learning needs to be in knowing the right of way and making this N20 go faster down wind, nearly got passed by an TheMightyHobie18 on each downwind leg which is not good. haha.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 04:50 AM

Rounded the marks to starboard? Hint: Read the Sailing Imstructions...

Hint 2: As there are only an extremely few fast TheMightyHobie18 teams left in the class (like a few handfuls spread across the entire country), any time you get passed by an TheMightyHobie18 (on any point of sail) should be a sign to go back to the beach and consider golf. This simple rule of thumb applies to all boats down to (and including) H16s...

Of course, being a Wave sailor (and a slow one at that), I have little chance of passing one any time soon...

smile

Mike
Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 05:20 AM

Jay,(and others!) can you talk more about sailing lanes? I've just recently been introduced to that concept, and I can see the value in paying attention to it. Thanks!

Dave
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 01:22 PM

The search function on CS is limited at best. Unless you start a thread with an easily remembered name it will be difficult to retrieve the information later.
Posted By: jkkartz1

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 02:50 PM

Have you read any of the many books on sailing tactics?

Years ago I got Eric Twiname's, "Start to Win". I read it once to get an overview of his theory of sailboat racing. I then read it again and tried to remember situations that the varous topics applied to. When I finally started to understand what he was saying, I could see the words from the book as a race unfolded.

Stick with one author so you are not distracted by the different words that each author uses to describe a particular situation.

How do you get to Carnigie Hall: Practice, Practice, Practice.

How do you get to the Pocono's: Quit Practicing.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
Jay,(and others!) can you talk more about sailing lanes? I've just recently been introduced to that concept, and I can see the value in paying attention to it. Thanks!

Dave


Easiest way to imagine it is this: the wind is not homogeneous. It oscillates (sometimes asynchronosly) in both direction and velocity. The more generic terms may include "puff", "pressure", "veer", etc.

If you stood at the top of a bridge or building and looked across an expanse of water, you can see some of the vagaries of the wind as it moves across the water. It's harder to visualize while you're on the water, but that's where the really good sailors/tacticians are able to shine.

A good lane, ideally, is one which gives you the best direction and pressure toward your intended direction, as well as no "spoil" from other boats to windward. The lane will most likely be in constant flux, and it's your job to try to stay "in phase" with these changes.

Or, you could be like me and chase flyers and get out of sync which ensures that I won't have to make space in my sailbag for any trophies. smile
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Jay, my sailing is what it is!

I was thinking more of general discussions on this board.
If tuning is basic to the sport then frequent review is appropriate.



Tuning is somewhat similar in car racing. You can get general settings to keep you on the track, but only the really good drivers benefit from all the little tweaks we discuss ad nauseum on the forum

Spreader rake (as an example) won't make you any faster than you are already if you don't already have a good technique for boathandling.

A blown tack/gybe/rounding/start will influence your overall performance far more than an incorrect batten tension.

I think we all talk about the tweaks here because few of us are big enough to really admit we suck at sailing and don't spend time practicing

I know that doesn't help much, but maybe T-back or Matt can take a look at your settings next time you're at T-winds...
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 05:10 PM

I've been through all that with Matt. The boat's fine.

I pinch. Every time I take my mind off that for any reason, when I get resettled, I'm pinching. That and I under sheet for some reason.

...and I'll get with Terry. He thanks you in advance. [he's the only guy I ever beat and then only about 1/3 of the time]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by pgp
Jay, my sailing is what it is!

I was thinking more of general discussions on this board.
If tuning is basic to the sport then frequent review is appropriate.



Tuning is somewhat similar in car racing. You can get general settings to keep you on the track, but only the really good drivers benefit from all the little tweaks we discuss ad nauseum on the forum

Spreader rake (as an example) won't make you any faster than you are already if you don't already have a good technique for boathandling.

A blown tack/gybe/rounding/start will influence your overall performance far more than an incorrect batten tension.

I think we all talk about the tweaks here because few of us are big enough to really admit we suck at sailing and don't spend time practicing

I know that doesn't help much, but maybe T-back or Matt can take a look at your settings next time you're at T-winds...


I think the reason people stress on trim is it's easily attainable, without a time investment. Like said before once your game comes up , your tuning can change to it. I see time on the water and rig refinement as two separate things. It irks the crap out of me when people say don't worry about the boat just go sail. How about worry about the boat AND go sail. The 2 together make way more difference than either by itself. "Seat time" is key in any competitive sport, but having your gear right is pretty important also.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 05:43 PM

"It irks the crap out of me when people say don't worry about the boat just go sail."

Especially when they beat you... wink

I think a main reason people here focus on setup is because many folks have "complicated" boats, with lots of settings. Also, many of us are engineers. And, it's easier to "see" and "control" setup than it is to sail correctly and repeatably, since no two sets of sailing conditions (within or between races) are ever identical, and even with GPS tracking, you can't really measure what you're doing with the stick and sheets.

EDIT:

"How about worry about the boat AND go sail." The best sailors do exactly this. The trick is to find the right balance, and at some point, you have to forget about the settings and sail what you have."

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 06:08 PM

"few of us are big enough to really admit we suck at sailing"

When was the last time you saw someone with the jib sheeted to the wrong side? Those are the people for whom sailing is truly difficult and imo they quit out of frustration.



Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 06:12 PM

"and even with GPS tracking, you can't really measure what you're doing with the stick and sheets."

next time out I'll mark my sheets with different colors for different adjustments and see what the gps shows...when I get around to it. I also have a Rube Goldberg wind indicator rattling around inside my head...
Posted By: orphan

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 06:34 PM

Pete,
You can always invest in a speedpuck. It will show you when you are pinching, slow, fast, etc. I was amazed at some of the findings when I started to use one. Use it as a learning tool. Try different setting and you can see the results. Plus its fun just to see how fast you are going. The large display makes it easy to check and keep your head out of the boat.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 06:53 PM

I know, but it's expensive and some of the other classes have prohibited them.

I won't buy one unless they are universally accepted. And we're back to that "time on the water" thing. It won't show me squat unless I go sailing! laugh

Frankly, I don't have a lot of time for sailing right now. Maybe in the new year.


Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 07:05 PM

Don't get me wrong, if you have a GPS/speedpuck, etc. it's definitely one more arrow to have in the quiver.

Even if your class doesn't allow it for racing, it might give you more incentive to get out and practice (an excuse to get out on the water to use the new toy).

Mike
Posted By: mini

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I know, but it's expensive and some of the other classes have prohibited them.

I won't buy one unless they are universally accepted. And we're back to that "time on the water" thing. It won't show me squat unless I go sailing! laugh

Frankly, I don't have a lot of time for sailing right now. Maybe in the new year.




You guys are F’d.
If you got beat on the start line or around the course it had nothing to do with tuning.
When you sail you have a tiller, sheet and then the downhaul rotator. Unless you boat settings are completely screwed up, like being upside down, these 4 controls which you have on the water will be what makes you fast.

Also why in the world would you want to adjust things constantly and have your boat potentially feel different? Learn what you have and how to make it go fast. If it is always different, how do you learn what is fast? If you boat does not seem to point, quit trying – there is where people lose big time. Do what you need to do to go fast and it will equal out in the end.

You want to truly train get a buddy. Lots more fun to not sail alone anyway and we need more people sailing. Forget the speed puck if you are serious. If not you might as well just look to a forum for that miracle mast rake setting that let you start winning races.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 09:09 PM

One more specific question:
How much initial tension you want on the jib halyard/jib luff?
I like to rig with just enough tension to transfer most of the slack from the shrouds to the forestay, but have been wondering if taking all the slack would be better.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 09:32 PM

what kind of boat?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I pinch. Every time I take my mind off that for any reason, when I get resettled, I'm pinching. That and I under sheet for some reason.


I'd say that happens with 90% of sailors, and pretty much anyone who comes from leaners to cats (at least for the first bit of time on the new platform). And if you're sailing close to another boat, it's very hard not to start pinching.

I used to crew on a guy's Tartan 31 who was a gnat's eyelash away from being in irons every upwind session. He'd always say "look at all that real estate" between us and the leeward boats, but they always managed to sail on past us and we'd be the last boat at A. He bought a 135% genoa thinking that would solve the problem. It didn't. If it wasn't so fun to lose races with him, I would have jumped ship years before I actually did.

You've got windward helm most likely, so any time you're not paying attention your boat is probably going to head up. And you said it yourself - when I get resettled. Head "out of the boat" is always faster.

Your jib telltales are the quickest way to find out if you're pinching or not without having to look away for long. I guess the benefit of a 2-up boat is that the driver can focus on stuff like that, while the stringer could make the proper sail adjustments for the course being steered.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 10:01 PM

The helm is fine. You were on the boat with me. Did you think we were pinching? I'm guessing not. That's because you were there to tend the boat and let me drive so I didn't become distracted.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/10/11 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
The helm is fine. You were on the boat with me. Did you think we were pinching? I'm guessing not. That's because you were there to tend the boat and let me drive so I didn't become distracted.


It's easier to sail it that way. Face it, these are demanding boats. I find myself pinching from time to time too - especially when I'm getting tired and particularly on the a-cat.
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 12:46 PM

At the bottom of linked page there is a percent draft, position, and twist for light, medium, and heavy air.
Any sailmakers have a similar table for beachcats?
http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_11_PerfectShape/Main.htm
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by pgp
The helm is fine. You were on the boat with me. Did you think we were pinching? I'm guessing not. That's because you were there to tend the boat and let me drive so I didn't become distracted.


It's easier to sail it that way. Face it, these are demanding boats. I find myself pinching from time to time too - especially when I'm getting tired and particularly on the a-cat.


the best weather performance I've ever had was on the H17. I've considered replacing the wing mast with a Hobie stick and having a sail cut similarly.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by pgp
The helm is fine. You were on the boat with me. Did you think we were pinching? I'm guessing not. That's because you were there to tend the boat and let me drive so I didn't become distracted.


It's easier to sail it that way. Face it, these are demanding boats. I find myself pinching from time to time too - especially when I'm getting tired and particularly on the a-cat.


the best weather performance I've ever had was on the H17. I've considered replacing the wing mast with a Hobie stick and having a sail cut similarly.



Ker-what-itstan? You will not get better weather performance with the old technology. The wing mast provides a much more efficient profile to weather and the current (mylar) sails work better than the H17 sails. I switch back and forth between a-cat and F18 and I think the extra power and complication of the F18 lulls me into pinching. I promise the H17 wasn't better than your F16 to weather - you were just more comfortable with it.

If I might suggest something - for your next regatta, plan to be the guy that foots too much and not the guy that pinches too much. Get a feel for it and bust out of your comfort zone. Be the guy that sails slightly lower than everyone else. You might even be surprised at the result. Perhaps spend a day doing nothing but jib reaching in good breeze and trying to get the speedo as high as possible. I find that the odd points of sail (get a lot of this in distance races), give me a lot of experience to feel that happy zone between good speed and good pointing ability - although I need a reminder every now and then (helpful when sailing with crew). This might help you retune your upwind speed by starting to get the need for bow sizzle. Pinchers are in a safe comfort zone and have to forfeit that "safe" feeling and start sailing deeper. Footers just need to learn to refine their upwind approach.If you're a footer, learning to sail higher is much easier than a pincher learning to foot.

For some reason, I had to really fight the urge to pinch upwind since I got back into F18 recently. I did what I prescribed above and decided to just experiment for one regatta. I was the guy that footed that weekend and, though we had several mechanical failures on the (new to me) boat, we were getting to A-mark 30 to 50 yards in front of the entire fleet (when the boat held together). I was footing mad in good breeze and sheeting till it bleeds. I was astonished. Go the bow sizzle.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 03:46 PM

I agree, particularly about getting out of my comfort zone. I hadn't thought about footing to that extent but what the hell, might as well go big.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 04:41 PM

One major key to stop pinching does involve setup. As previously mentioned, if you have weather helm, your boat will pinch when you're not actively working against that. And, generally speaking, any time you are using the rudder to make the boat go a way it doesn't "want" to, you are bleeding speed (rudders double as great brakes).

The biggest contributors to weather helm are mast rake and rudder rake. You need to experiment to find the best settings for your boat, crew weight and conditions.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 04:49 PM

I did have an issue with the rudders but that was resolved some time ago. Recently, Matt went over them with me and I'm satisfied they're good.

The problem seems to be that practice makes permanent. I was really happy with the way the H17 went to weather and seem to be trying to sail this boat the same way.

Some how the old dog will have to learn a new trick.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
One major key to stop pinching does involve setup. As previously mentioned, if you have weather helm, your boat will pinch when you're not actively working against that. And, generally speaking, any time you are using the rudder to make the boat go a way it doesn't "want" to, you are bleeding speed (rudders double as great brakes).

The biggest contributors to weather helm are mast rake and rudder rake. You need to experiment to find the best settings for your boat, crew weight and conditions.

Mike


Rudder rake has nothing to do with weather helm, though it has a big influence if the rudder feels heavy or not. Mast rake has some subtle influence, but on a boat with boom and dagger boards it is pretty much the last thing I would think to touch. Finally the theory of rudders brakeing is wrong too, since the rudders provide the lateral resistance if the boat has weather helm. That makes drag, but since the daggerboards has to works less, the total drag balance is quite neutral.

A very important factor is proper longitudianl trim on light single hander boats. You have to be close to the front beam to keep the stern out of the water. Another key is to pull enough mast rotation. Indeed a wing mast is more sensible to that. Ihe difference between a conventional and a wing mast is huge. On a conventional mast you pull it somewhere to the daggerboard and can forget about it the rest of the sailing more or less. On a wing mast you pull it to end of the rear beam. In strong wind you may rotate out a bit (to open the top of the sail). Keep the sheet tight and the sail flat with the downhaul.
As Jake said, go for speed. Once you have speed you will automatically go higher to keep the boat flat. Once you loose speed, bear away again.

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 07:53 PM

Yes, Pete, you were pinching, but in that light air up until about the hammerhead hole, there wasn't a lot of breeze at all, which usually makes pinching habits worse.

And to mirror prior comments, that wing mast can way outperform the H-17 setup, but the peak performance goove is more narrow which means you can't get away with bad angle or trim as easily as you could on your old boat

You can also try locking the rudders centerline and steering with the sails (in light air) to help get a feel for good sail balancing. Getting it to sail straight takes time, but really helped me establish a good first step on how all the sail controls work together to influence the boat.

As I moved my fat butt around on the boat, I'd have to go and readjust everything again to sail straight for a few more boatlengths.

Turned out to be a great way to spend two hours in light air not going anywhere in particular. Haven't tried this off-wind (only close reach angle), but it may work...
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 08:06 PM

"Yes, Pete, you were pinching,"

Is it too late to blame the crew?
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
"Yes, Pete, you were pinching,"

Is it too late to blame the crew?

You should!!!! grin

I crewed on an N20 recently and had a much better view of the jib and was not preoccupied with steering the boat. The skipper could retire if he got a nickle for every time I warned him that he was pinching......the result - 3 straight bullets!

BTW, it IS easier to see that you are pinching when sailing with a jib.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
"Yes, Pete, you were pinching,"

Is it too late to blame the crew?


Absolutely not! I blame my a-cat crew all the time.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by brucat
One major key to stop pinching does involve setup. As previously mentioned, if you have weather helm, your boat will pinch when you're not actively working against that. And, generally speaking, any time you are using the rudder to make the boat go a way it doesn't "want" to, you are bleeding speed (rudders double as great brakes).

The biggest contributors to weather helm are mast rake and rudder rake. You need to experiment to find the best settings for your boat, crew weight and conditions.

Mike


Rudder rake has nothing to do with weather helm, though it has a big influence if the rudder feels heavy or not. Mast rake has some subtle influence, but on a boat with boom and dagger boards it is pretty much the last thing I would think to touch. Finally the theory of rudders brakeing is wrong too, since the rudders provide the lateral resistance if the boat has weather helm. That makes drag, but since the daggerboards has to works less, the total drag balance is quite neutral.

A very important factor is proper longitudianl trim on light single hander boats. You have to be close to the front beam to keep the stern out of the water. Another key is to pull enough mast rotation. Indeed a wing mast is more sensible to that. Ihe difference between a conventional and a wing mast is huge. On a conventional mast you pull it somewhere to the daggerboard and can forget about it the rest of the sailing more or less. On a wing mast you pull it to end of the rear beam. In strong wind you may rotate out a bit (to open the top of the sail). Keep the sheet tight and the sail flat with the downhaul.
As Jake said, go for speed. Once you have speed you will automatically go higher to keep the boat flat. Once you loose speed, bear away again.

Cheers,

Klaus


You may have misunderstood my point about the rudder drag. If the boat has weather helm, and you are pulling the rudder constantly just to go straight, that is adding drag to the equation.

Not sure that it matters, but my experience is based on Hobie 16s. Mast rake makes a huge difference in pointing ability. If the mast rake is set up to pinch, and the rudders are not set properly, they will add drag as you try to steer down to a faster angle (and the boat won't go as fast as it could, because of the drag from the heavy rudder).

These factors are so important on a H16, that I have a hard time believing they are not important on other designs.

The fastest settings (for getting around the course) seem to be either neutral helm, or a very small amount of weather helm. Lee helm is slowest.

I do agree that (all things being equal) the crew weight needs to be forward to foot.

Mike
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 10:14 PM

I have only sailed my F16 solo once vs duals. (whatever)
It was way overpowered, for the double traps conditions, and I had to let the traveler out,
because traveler centered had to much leech twist: could point but poor speed.
Traveled out, I could not point, but could foot (straighter leech) with the lead pack but loosing gage.

If I were to try it over again, at a minimum I would double batten the top third of sail,
let out some outhaul, maybe some diamond wire tension, and center the traveler.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
The skipper could retire if he got a nickle for every time I warned him that he was pinching......the result - 3 straight bullets!

BTW, it IS easier to see that you are pinching when sailing with a jib.


That is a probably the single most important part of crewing, and that's feeding the idiot with the stick information. In double trap conditions I'm steering off of just hull height, and its easy to start pinching and backwinding the jib when over powered If I'm pinching its time to dump some power so I can foot off again and keep that train rolling.


I think not having a jib to steer to is the single hardest thing about sailing the F16 one up.




And pete- I blame my crew more often singlehanded for sure.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 10:41 PM

The mainsheet is your elevator. Driving all over is slow. Constantly having to sheet in/out more than a foot or two means drop traveler a bit and try again.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 10:44 PM

So if pinching on a uni-rig is that much easier to do, is it easy to tell when you're footing off too far and stalling the backside?
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/11/11 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So if pinching on a uni-rig is that much easier to do, is it easy to tell when you're footing off too far and stalling the backside?


Going to weather depends on the wind speed, but if it is blowing +18kn, the weather hull will raise way before the lee telltales break.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
The mainsheet is your elevator. Driving all over is slow. Constantly having to sheet in/out more than a foot or two means drop traveler a bit and try again.


In conditions with constant wind direction and speed? Yeah. In the real world when your trying to maintain VMG, you're doing both. Steering and sheeting constantly. Now its very small changes in direction, but its still happening. Heck, you're constantly steering just to maintain a direction, either wind angle has changed slightly, speed has changed because of wave angles, wind speed has changed, changing your apparent wind. Like I said little changes, not necessarily "driving all over". smile

There's a lot going on that needs constant little trims.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 11:03 AM

Quote
Not sure that it matters, but my experience is based on Hobie 16s. Mast rake makes a huge difference in pointing ability. If the mast rake is set up to pinch, and the rudders are not set properly, they will add drag as you try to steer down to a faster angle (and the boat won't go as fast as it could, because of the drag from the heavy rudder).


Yes it matters. That's way I said "on boats with boom and daggerboards". I agree that rake is important on a H16 and even more on boats without boom like Dart 18, etc.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So if pinching on a uni-rig is that much easier to do, is it easy to tell when you're footing off too far and stalling the backside?

It is very easy to tell, because you lose all your speed. It adds to the pinching tendency, because you are afraid to stall the main. The jib protects the main sail from stalling, even if itself is stalled. You loose some speed but not all. On a uni rig it is like running out of gas. In stronger winds you arn't able to stall before capsize or pitchpole. Light wind single handed with a uni rig is the most difficult to keep the boat moving. I guess we (uni sailor) are all pinching, apart from the really good ones.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 02:10 PM

Best way to sail upwind is to drive it.., that is, keep up speed by not pinching and yet not footing off. As your speed goes up, you can step the boat up to weather a few feet at a time, thus seemingly pinching to the boat behind you. Yet, you are not. Object is to keep trying to step it up a lane without losing speed by pinching.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 03:26 PM

I guess I can try increasing my main sheet to 8:1. Now, when I try to sheet hard my butt comes unattached to the deck and I slide all over.

Rick, I think I've been trying to find one magic slot to weather whick doesn't work. Finer adjustments seem to be in order.

Posted By: davefarmer

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 05:08 PM

Pete, I usually sail with one foot under the hiking strap, and with the other I catch the strap with my heel so I have something to push against when sheeting, or the hull rises.

dave
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I guess I can try increasing my main sheet to 8:1. Now, when I try to sheet hard my butt comes unattached to the deck and I slide all over.

Rick, I think I've been trying to find one magic slot to weather whick doesn't work. Finer adjustments seem to be in order.


Are you saying that you don't trap upwind but the sheet loads are strong enough to pull you in? Sounds like you either oversheet or you should go in the trapez... or you are significantly heavier than me smile.

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: pgp

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 06:23 PM

I'm a lot heavier than you! 105 kg.

I think that if I pinched less I'd be able to trap more.
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by davefarmer
I usually sail with one foot under the hiking strap, and with the other I catch the strap with my heel so I have something to push against when sheeting, or the hull rises.


I sail a Wave and I do something similar. My forward food is under the hiking strap, but I keep my aft foot out and work the mainsheet cam cleat with my toes. If I have to hike hard, I will hook my aft foot under the aft beam.

When one of the more experienced guys saw how I was working the cleat, at first he started laughing, but after thinking about it, he said he was going to try it next time. smile
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/12/11 11:00 PM

On a Wave I'd set the cleat angle so you can't cleat it.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/13/11 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
what kind of boat?


Supercat 15 or 17
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/13/11 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
On a Wave I'd set the cleat angle so you can't cleat it.

I'm too wimpy for that I guess. It only has a 4:1 purchase with no ratchet and I'm using a fat headed sail.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/13/11 11:32 AM

Ah, yeah...... ratchet would be key.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/13/11 02:42 PM

On the Wave I use a small Harken Fiddle Ratchet with a becket. In light air, switch it off, and in heavy use the ratchet. Also use 1/4" Salsa (great sheet line, no core, non stretch, won't kink, runs throught the blocks with ease).
Can't imagine not cleating the Wave -- Ouch!

Pete, You could go 8:1 and use smaller sheet, i.e., Salsa, as it will still go through the blocks easily. That way the sheet will feed out when eased.
Also, you might think about the Ratchamatic. Wish I could get one for the Wave, but they don't make one that will work on the boat.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/14/11 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
I'm a lot heavier than you! 105 kg.

I think that if I pinched less I'd be able to trap more.


Also err on the side of trapping when you shouldn't. Ive seen the euros trap much earlier and the thought is that keeping the boat flat and the mast perpendicular is more of a performance advantage that desperately trying to get a hull flying. I've been taking that approach and it hasn't hurt me yet...and I usually sail heavy.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/14/11 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

In conditions with constant wind direction and speed? Yeah.


Like you said, very little on the boat is "static" even in relatively consistent conditions. I'd opt for sail adjustments before rudder changes, but indeed some rudder will usually be necessary
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/14/11 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by pgp
I'm a lot heavier than you! 105 kg.

I think that if I pinched less I'd be able to trap more.


Also err on the side of trapping when you shouldn't. Ive seen the euros trap much earlier and the thought is that keeping the boat flat and the mast perpendicular is more of a performance advantage that desperately trying to get a hull flying. I've been taking that approach and it hasn't hurt me yet...and I usually sail heavy.


You bring up a good point here Jake, and something I had forgotten all about since making the switch from mono-dinghy racing to cats. In somehting like a Laser or 470, the experts will tell you to keep the boat as flat as possible going upwind, as you said, to keep the mast straight up and the blades straight down, giving you maximum lift from both sails and blades.

We don't talk too much about that in Cats, because we all love to trap, of course, and as soon as you can get one hull up out of the water you have cut your drag in half, but when the wind is "Medium" and you have to decide to trap or not, is it better to keep the boat flatter and get all you can out of the blades/sails, or better to keep your weight inboard, try to fly that hull and reduce the drag?

There has to be a "Changeover Point" somewhere in there, where it pays to stay flat, or pays more to get the hull up...finding that point is why I hate racing in light air!

When it's blowing, you don't have to worry about "IF" you should trap or not, you have to, period. But when it gets light...well...? My biggest problem may, or may not be, indecision. ;^)
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/14/11 08:05 PM

On the A-cat, it's faster to go on the wire first and hold it down for acceleration in the puffs versus sitting in, flying the hull, and pinching up.
Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: Basic sailing techniques - 11/14/11 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
On the A-cat, it's faster to go on the wire first and hold it down for acceleration in the puffs versus sitting in, flying the hull, and pinching up.


Not talking about puffs, it is faster to keep one hull out of the water but still keep it flat, just kiss the top of the waves. On all cats I sailed so far I could feel the slow down if the hull flies high upwind. In light winds it helps to make the trap short and crouch. Ones the boat picks speed and want to fly the hull, you can stretch and translate the power in even more speed instead of heal.
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