Key Largo Steeplechase Update

Right after the start there was a collision between Skip Kaub's ARC 22 and Todd Riccardi's F-18. The F-18 got the worst of it with a big hole in its side, so they retired and are hoping to be able to race Sunday. The ARC continued on with what looked like a broken spinnaker pole.

Later report from someone at the Card Sound Bridge says an ARC 22 dismasted. Don't know whether it was Skip Kaub's or Eric Roberts'.

Wind is beautiful, about 12 out of the northeast.

(Note: This was corrected in a later post, but it was not an F18 that was hit, it was a Nacra 20.)

There were 15 boats at the start.

Just talked to Todd and it was Skip that hit them. They were not on an F-18 ,but a borrowed N-20. They're going to borrow another one and try again tomorrow. He also said it was Eric who hit the bridge.

Double OUCH!

And a hole in a Borrowed boat??

With only 15 boats on the line, how did that happen?

Sorry, I didn't check my list before posting.

Just heard from Steve Lohmayer that the three lead boats are just passing Tavernier Creek, moving fast with spinnakers flying. He says it's Bret Moss in first (Marstrom 20), Mike Philllips in second (Marstrom 20), and Mike Krantz in 3rd (F20 carbon).

He said they had pushed them out at the pin and apparently the sc dropped behind and tried to bearaway across their sterns but didn't make it. That's alot of effort to get knocked out at the start.

That's rolling pretty good.

First three boats are in at Anne's Beach. Bret Moss first, Mike Krantz second, and Mike Phillips third.

Wow! That didn't take long. How many miles/hrs. was that? Must be a lot nicer down there? It's overcast and raining, not much wind at all up here in Sebring, but I think the front has stalled right over us, and you are still in the clear/warm/windy air?

Yep. I think it's supposed to be 15-20 out of the east tomorrow for the race back to Gilbert's.

Here's a radar map for any out of towner's. You can click, drag it to the Keys, and zoom and scroll it around. Also if you click on the upper right corner, put it in motion. Looks like you'll be in the clear Mary.

http://www2.tbo.com/weather/local/interactive-radar/

Thanks, Timbo. That's a cool link.

That's got to be close if not a record.

Anything for you Mary!

Wish I were there to watch, but the wife's got other ideas for me today (I just finished peeling potatos!).

I have already secured my kitchen pass for Tradewinds though, and Andi Lutz just told me he's flying over from Switzerland to do it again, so we'll see you then.

Mary,
Do the 2 rc 22s carry the same rating? A little bird told me they went under the bridge in the same spot and one didn't make it. Taller mast?

Birdie was wrong about the crossing spans...they were different.


Awesome day carnage aside. Frank and I pinched out of angel fish creek lead f18 but had the spin halyard cleat block rip off the mast on the hoist. Took us a while to get a McGiver fix in place and Ding/Bing and Karl/Burd got around us. Karl busted (yet another) spin pole though and let us by. Ding was sailing fast and we finished behind him.

It started with a double trap reach to the card sound bridge. With the F20c showing its legs on the reach, we were first to the bridge. The breeze was on the nose to Angelfish Creek, and the Marstroms were able to pull ahead with the same speed, but were able to point a couple of degrees higher. Through the creek we were able to overtake them and were first out of the pass. Then it was a double trap suicide reach in big waves for about ten miles in 15+ knots and 3-6 ft waves.
All three of us swapped leads multiple times, until we were all able to bear off a couple of degrees and set the spins. At that point it became a matter of who could avoid stuffing into the backs of the waves the least for the remainder of the leg.

Final result - Bret/JC hit the beach in first, followed by Dave and I a couple minutes later, and Mike/Kenny were 2 secs behind us....

Tomorrow promises a lot of upwind work, and it;s still anybody's race to win!!

Good to know.
Damn, sh!t stirring birdie!

What is up with Karl and spin poles? Sounds like time for a re-think on his set-up.

I didn't see ding after racing but word on the street was he barely made it through the day. He had to skip the party to go home early to get on life support. He must be getting too old for this! Poor guy. He couldn't even return my phone call tonight, you'd think he would at least have called me to make sure I was okay after my traumatic day.

Nice clean start, right on time at 9AM in 12 mph NE Winds. Should be a fast trip and should make the finish before noon.
Brett Moss was first through the Channel Five Bridge, followed closely by Krantz. Phillip was mid pack. May not be a rePete
Rick

Results from Yesterday.

Catamaran Sailor Magazine
2011 27th Annual Key Largo Steeplechase


Preliminary Results

R1


Rank Class Sail No Helm Crew USPN Start Elapsed Corrected Nett
1 Marstrom 20 USA 1 Bret Moss John Casey 58 9:00 3:56:47 6:48:15 1.0
2 Marstrom 20 USA 2 Michael Phillips Kenny Pierce 58 9:00 3:58:02 6:50:24 2.0
3 Nacra F20C USA 11 Mike Krantz David Lennard 57 9:00 3:58:00 6:57:33 3.0
4 F-18 USA 242 David Ingram Bob Ingram 62.4 9:00 4:49:21 7:43:42 4.0
5 F-18 880 Jake Kohl Frank Moore 62.4 9:00 4:54:22 7:51:44 5.0
6 F-18 1571 James Zellmer Jeff Miller 62.4 9:00 5:06:05 8:10:31 6.0
7 F-18 USA 676 Karl Langefeld Tripp Burd 62.4 9:00 5:19:03 8:31:18 7.0
8 ARC 22 2224 Skip Kaub Ian Lindahl 57 9:00 4:52:21 8:32:54 8.0
9 H-16 w. spin 105333 Steve Craemer Jim O'Leary 73.9 9:00 6:38:11 8:58:49 9.0
10 Nacra 5.8 910 Dick Macdonald Llinda Macdonald 66.6 9:00 6:45:41 10:09:08 10.0
11 Nacra 20 Pink boat Peter Cullum Daryl Moss 59.3 9:00 7:45:00 13:04:09 11.0
12 F-18 2572 Scott Rathburn Will Dolan 62.4 9:00 9:00:00 14:25:23 12.0
13 Nacra 5.8 ? Mauricio Mendez Keith Gebler/Brian Glassman 66.6 DNF 16.0
13 ARC 22 2230 Eric Roberts David Weir 57 DNF 16.0
13 Nacra 20 Royal ? Todd Riccardi Brendon Scanlon 59.3 DNF 16.0


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Rick@catsailor.com

?????????

Mr. Punk (as my 9 year old nephew refers to you) I look forward to giving you a proper beat down at Tradewinds.

Seriously though it was good to see you and Brendon...well really just Brendon. Try not to get harpooned next month, no more freaking excuses!

How about a day 2 recap? It's obvious you lived through it ,but that's about it.

So...if I'm reading the Day One results right, the first boat to finish did the 70 miles in just short of 4 hours. (3:57?) so that works out to 17.5 mph. average?

That's a pretty good clip for 4 hours straight!

We were doing 15-16 on the reach to the bridge. Then back down to 12-13 on the beat to the creek. A bunch of short tacking up Angelfish Creek against the current. Then it was a close reach for the first 10 miles or so @18-19. Then the wind backed a little and the spins came out for a 20 knot run for the remainder of the leg.

Day 2… relatively boring compared to the ride we had on Saturday. As you know the breeze was on the nose with good pressure and since you’ve done this race before you know traversing the flats going upwind is a pain in the a$$! From our vantage point (behind) it looked like all the leaders made quick work of the flats including Ricky. While going through the second flat of the day (the one where almost everyone takes the channel), I got us out of the channel and found the bottom forcing us to jibe away because there was no way we were going to be able to tack without boards. Karl got the worst of it and ended up flipping when they found the bottom. Ricky, Jake, Karl, SC22 and us were all right there in the channel together and it made for some sporty close quarters sailing and those that worked the channel clean made huge those that f’d up (me and Karl) got left behind. The canals were surprisingly easy this year, as we entered the canal the wind would clock hard right which allowed us to sail the canal on a single tack, we even had the spin up for a short period. Jake/Frank and Ricky/Brendon sailed a really clean race on Sunday and it showed.

I’m happy to report that on Friday that everything went without a hitch at Gilberts, but the guys they hired as security on Sunday were a just a bit over the top (little men with a little power). It was a great weekend and an amazing sail. We could not have asked for better weather and hopefully that great weather will make an appearance next month at Tradewinds.

Moss man before you get your carbon fiber panties in a wad, I didn't mention you guys because we barely saw you guys. Once I can't see you I'm not racing you anymore. Stay were I can see you and I'll say nice things about you (Ricky that rule doesn't apply to you).

By the way Ricky, this is Steeplechase number two where I’ve made you my b!tch. You really need to step up your game you are starting to bore me.

Mike, do you have your (actual) total distance sailed on Saturday from your GPS? With the beat to the creek against the current it would be more than 70, right? And what was the highest speed you saw on the GPS, about 20knts?

I haven't downloaded the tracks yet to review the actual numbers.

I saw 20-21 several times when my eyes weren't stinging from the spray...

Wow, that's hauling butt!

And at that speed, how much lifting was taking place with the curved boards? I wish we had some video of that!

Most of the time we were just skimming the surface. But at one point we got caught with too much board down when we cracked off for one of the mangrove entrances and stood it up on it's stern. When you have just the amount of board down it's awesome.

Like Mike says, you really have to be on top of how much board is in, so we didn't have any lifting of the boat out of the water at all.

And out of curiosity, why wasn't someone DSQ'd or RAF for that?

Steeplechase doesn't work like that. No protests allowed.
I guess they could still have RAFed though.

That's not what the "NOR" (and I use that term loosely) says:

Doesn't mean there can't be protests. From the hull damage caused by the pole, and the description of the incident, seems a pretty clear Rule 11 / 12 situation. Even if the other boat had ROW, they'd get tossed on Rule 14 (collision resulting in damage).

And yeah, somebody should have RAF'd. I hope they struck around long enough to make sure the boat they speared was OK. Imagine if that pole had been about 12" higher. Somebody would have been going to the hospital - probably on a helicopter.

Yeah! Helicopter

No, they didn't stay around and from what I heard they actually didn't think it was their fault. Very poor show.

Well come do the race sometime, protest, and see how that works out for ya.

Somebody puts a big-butt hole in my (borrowed) boat and you bet I'm going to file a protest - just to cover my own butt with the insurance company. Just because Rick doesn't provide a protest committee doesn't mean it won't get heard.

Thousands of dollars in damages and the guy just sails away? That's a Rule 2 / 69 hearing - which could still take place. All that has to happen is for someone to write a letter.

This sets an extraordinarily bad example - both from an organizational and sportsmanship standpoint - just when we (multihulls) are trying to prove to outside world (US Sailing) that we have our $hit together.

Bad form indeed.

Skip is anything but an ****.

No doubt poor form was displayed, but the reference to this incident damaging the status of multihulls in the US Sailing world is a little over the top. I’m confident US Sailing has no interest in any event that doesn't put $$ into the US Sailing coffers, our status will remain unchanged.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic. The US sailing part is a little dramatic ( I think you've been reading too many Ben Ainslie threads on SA). How does the process go for hearing a protest when there is no protest committee and who would you file it with?

day 1.....off to a slow start, got pinched out at the start and had to loop around at start about 30 seconds late. A nice reach in about 12-15 knots to card sound bridge. Tripp did a great job on strings and by the time we reached the bridge, we were right behind the other F-18's (Ingram, Jake Kohl, and Jim Zellmer). Then a nice upwind to the entrance to Angelfish creek. We were second into the creek (of the F18's) right on the tail of Jake, once in the ocean it was a double trap "death reach" south. After a short period, we decided to try the kite, it was a much smoother ride with the kite, but we were being constantly knocked towards shore, we had to douse and reach back out and found ourselves a bit ahead of jake. The spin runs got longer and the reaches shorter as we moved south until we could run with the kite and not have to worry about getting knocked to the shore. Behind us, it looked like Dave had passed Jake (later found out the Jake broke a spin halyard cleat and had to stop to regroup). appeard to have 4th (behind the 3 carbon boats) comfortably locked up with some time in our pockets. Until.........the spin bridle broke and the pole folded. Crap....20 miles from the finish and no kite. While we were stopped to work out options and Dave passed us and checked to make sure we were ok. Our jury rig consisted of passing the spin tack line through the spin bridle tang on the windward hull and tying it off to the beam. We were able to do 14-16knots this way but both Jake and Jim passed us as our progress slowed considerably. Each time we needed to jibe, Tripp would douse the kite, scurry out the bow, untie the tack line, throw it around the forestay, we'd jibe the boat, then he'd scurry out the other bow and retie to the new windward hull, rehoist the kite and off again. Once we got back to the beach, Mike Krantz, Dave Lennard, and Brett Moss immediatly dove in and started working out how to get us fixed in time for the morning start. Dave and Mike rode with us back to Gilberts and spent about an hour building a patch section for the pole and putting it back together. Aren't cat sailer friends great!


Now day two.......short spin run down to the channel 5 bridge, the pole lasted about half way there before it broke again. Crap......last under the bridge with our competition out in the distance. At least it would be upwind the rest of the day. Tripp, the animal that he is, worked his tail off and before long we had passed Jim and were crossing tacks with Jake and Dave. Trying to navigate one of the really narrow channels, we were clumped in with 3 other boats and I got pushed too far outside the channel, we hit bottom and capsized. Damn......competition sails away. Again Tripp grinds them down again, Just as we catch up, our mainsheet blocks break. **insert explatives here** We stop the boat and Tripp goes about jury rigging the blocks and after about 5 minutes, were off again. Jim is still behind us, Jake is way out in front, and Dave is about half way between. The rest of the leg is spent again catching up, but we ran out of room and finished a couple minutes behind Dave.

I suspect when the video hits the web there will be an ad-hoc protest hearing right here where every rule and nuisance will be discussed in great detail. It will also have a greater impact on behavior than any rule 69 hearing could ever hope to have. Correct me if I'm wrong but a rule 69 judgment has absolutely no teeth unless you're an Olympic hopeful.

It could go straight to an appeals committee of the regional sailing association, which in this case is probably the Florida Sailing Association. But the paper flows through US Sailing first (protest sent to USSA, then they forward it to FSA). FSA could punt it back to US Sailing since there's no member club involved. US Sailing would probably appoint a judge to hear the protest via conference call / e-mail.

I don't think the reference to US Sailing is "over the top" or dramatic. You would be surprised at how many people there lurk on this forum. There are pictures and a story on the front page for everyone to see. And don't forget - this is the same group running Tradewinds - that US Sailing has a strong vested interest in now (Youth Multihull Championship / Olympic Development / ISAF Youth Qualifier).

Damn Karl,
Sounds like your boat is living up to it's name. Congrats on you and Tripp's perseverance.

The worst case scenario under Rule 69 (a ban) means you can't race in anything that invokes ISAF Regulation 19 - which is any level of competition in an International Class - F18, A-Class, etc.

If you ignore the ban, your ban gets extended - ISAF just did that for a couple of Australians (http://www.sailing.org/sailors/suspended-sailors.php)

I'm not saying this would happen here. Bans are for egregious offenses and repeat offenders. A Rule 69 hearing is serious business. I've been on the judges' side of the table in one - in a lawyer's office. Serious as a heart attack.

Matt,

Come on now, you and I both know US Sailing pays very little attention and to say different will have to be backed with some evidence. Secondly, crap like this happens regardless of the platform and for someone to sit back and say multihulls don't have the act together because of it is simply stupid and probably being driven by an agenda!

I also think you are inaccurately and maybe with a little prejudice making some comments that really have no foundation. You well know or you should know there are a lot of folks involved in the ISAF event and to jump to the conclusion that the Steeplechase and the Tradewinds (ISAF regatta) will be conducted in a similar fashion is unfair and uneducated. We have all had our issues with Rick but knowing the folks currently involved with the ISAF event (and you should too Matt) the event will not disappoint.

This sort of thing happened to me once. The guy that hit us did the only thing he was allowed in the rules when there's significant damage; he retired. Then he showed us he was a true sailor and competitor; he offered us his boat so we could continue to race.

Let all the facts and video come out before anyone gets BBQ'd.

I broke my spin pole long ago, a knot came undone and the pole was bent badly. During the straightening process, it broke (second bend, same place) finding a replacement locally proved impossible. But a local marine hardware dealer sold me a piece of very thick alu tubing to use as an insert. It is maybe twelve inches long. No trouble since, about three years.

Come on now John, where's the fun in that??! ;^)

And for Karl, what exactly is breaking on your spin pole bridle, and where?

And are you using the factory wires, dyneem lines or something else? I've not heard of many failures of bridle wires, but you've had two in a row? What's causing it?

Pole failure has been due to the synthetic bridles either breaking or the stopper knots pulling out of the fitting at the end of the pole. New pole will have the bridles spliced at both ends. No more stopper knots!

Reminds me of my trials with vectran. Stuff has been used in space because of its light weight and high strength but is crap for any application that is dynamic like running through blocks because it has zero stretch qualities.

Took a couple broken trap lines and a conversation with an engineer to understand what was happening.

Wow, lots of interesting stuff going on here...

Without taking sides, or having been there, it's pretty obvious that there is no shortage of varying opinions on what transpired at this event, and what should have happened next.

I am trying to keep an open mind about this; for all I know, the sailors may have requested no protest committee (it does happen).

All I would say is that this is a perfect example of why disallowing protests is highly frowned upon. Disallowing appeals (within the specific guidelines of RRS) is one thing; I fail to see how disallowing protests serves the sailors one iota.

There is always more to the story, and the proper place for that to be heard is the protest room. Everything else is speculation.

And, don't kid yourself. This is an online forum. You never know who is watching...

Mike

Vectran sucks

Yeah I've thought of the splicing too, vs. knots, but I have trouble measuring exactly how long the splice will be, before and after doing it. I've been using knots and lots of white tape over knots and the tails, both for streemlining and to keep them from pulling out. I thought the Nacra's had fixed length, wire stays for the pole bridals?

What a great weekend of sailing! For me, we had some new found upwind speed that put us in the mix. Most of that speed came specifically due to a training clinic I had on the A-cat earlier this year.

The start was interesting and a lot of aggression was being displayed at the start. The line was set on a bit of a reach leaving the right side of the line heavily favored. I wanted to start there but with a couple of minutes to go, it was clear that the fleet aggression level was high so we laid back a little and started 5 or 10 seconds late (it was too late to reposition down the line where Ding wisely started).

From there, we worked up to Card Sound Bridge and held pace with all Ding/Bing, Karl/Tripp, and Zelmer with Zelmer taking point through the bridge. Once through (after avoiding the SC22 just ahead with the downed rig - a chase boat was already on the scene so no assistance was needed), a drag race to Angel Fish Creek ensued and we swapped the lead with Ding and Karl several times. We nailed the last tack to the creek and had a slight lead when we entered. Frank and I were tacking really well and managed to stretch out a little as we came through the creek. I'm not terribly familiar with the F18's ability to sail high with the kite and we were a little unsure about what angle to go for. We felt that the wind angle would have put us running toward the beach so after getting clear of the shallows to the south of the creek (probably a little later than we should have) we turned and single trapped on a deep reach in some pretty choppy stuff. We saw Ding turn much sooner (wise) and Karl set their kite letting it draw them down to the beach. We didn't want to be left out so we set our kite but immediately, the halyard cleat ripped off the mast. We fiddled with it for a few minutes while sailing low and slow but I decided that we should take advantage of the sharper wind angle now and go back to reaching while we figured out a plan. After about 20 to 30 minutes, the wind was clocking for a deeper run and we were really getting drawn out to sea making the separation from the other boats more and more risky. I had come up with an idea for the spinnaker halyard. We took a few more minutes to gut the mast rotation limiter, flipped the bar up on the mast, and fed the spin halyard through the end of the bar and onto the cleat located there (normally used for quickly changing the rotation between upwind and downwind). We didn't need the rotation limiter with the kite up...and to my amazement, it held just fine. Game on! We sailed hard trying to make up some of the lost time but didn't have much, if any, advantage on either of the two lead F18s in those conditions. The water was choppy with TONS of seagrass being blown out of the Gulf Stream. We must have cleared the boards and rudders 50 times. Occasionally we we find a set of waves we could surf but most of the time we're trying to keep the boat speed up while avoiding punching the bows and slowing down (so we were keeping the speed limited a little to avoid the slow down). All of a sudden, Karl came zooming into the field of view and we could see that his spinnaker was down. We sailed our course close enough to them to make sure we could see both people on the boat and in active condition (we could see that Tripp was on the bow working frantically on something and it looked like Karl had another spinnaker pole purchase in his near future)

From there, we weren't catching Ding so we tried to just keep him from stretching on us. We couldn't quite get the spinnaker hoisted 100% with our jury rig but I don't think it would have made much difference. We finished about 5 minutes behind Ding and about an hour behind the super boats.


Day 2. The start here usually kicks my butt and I haven't done this race in several years...so I studied the chart pretty hard for this one. There are shallows, a cut (going through a short bridge to the north of the Channel 5 Bridge) and then another oddly shaped shallow just prior to the channel 5 bridge. Avoiding the shallows altogether results in a lot more distance. Not taking some measure to avoid them results in really slow sailing (or damage). We found a pretty decent average through and got to the channel 5 bridge in good shape with the other F18s after having brushed ground only once. It was now an upwind drag race to the first cut. It seemed like the other F18s were sailing some different angles to weather and, in hindsight, I was starting to focus on that to much. There were probably lanes of breeze and I should have focused more on speed...but, we got to the first cut hot on the heels of Ding and with Karl right behind us. This cut is a marked channel through a very long shallow sandbar and it was upwind straight through it with an opposing current. The edges are poorly defined and hard to see so it was a real game of figuring out when to tack in the 10 yard width of the channel with decent depth. We brushed bottom a couple of times but managed to quickly tack and get through it. We got past Ding in the channel and saw that Karl had flipped. A couple more tacks and we were free of the channel with only the two Marstroms and the Nacra carbon 20 ahead...time to go! Frank and I sailed hard running from Ricky on the Nacra 20 while Ding and Karl struggeled to get out of the cut. I thought Ding was hanging around Karl to provide assistance if he needed it (and set my watch timer to make sure he received "adequate" time adjustment! ;-)). The yellow Marstrom 20, piloted by Lohmeyer, seemed to be off pace and showed a lot of twist in their main. We were able to keep up with them the entire way back and let Steve show us the way back to Key Largo (there's not many more familiar with this route than Steve). We had a really tough time getting through the creeks in and out of Tarpin Basin - I'm not sure what happened to us there. Ricky passed us in the last creek after getting a huge gust that we never saw. We seemed to lose a lot of ground to the boats behind us and in front of us there too. I haven't been able to figure out if it was just a random lack of breeze (bad luck) or if we were spending too much time on the windward side of the creek...or something else entirely. None the less, we popped out into Blackwater Sound with Ricky just ahead and Gilberts on the radar. It was a great two days of sailing in perfect weather and different water conditions and incredibly tight competition from the other F18s. I think the difference between Ding and us in 4th and 5th respectively was a minute or less overall.

Nice to have Matt viciously attacking me again. He does love me, you know!
And don't worry.., the Tradewinds is totally under control with three paid Judges from US Sailing.

I was right there on the line and saw the entire incident, and Craig Van Eaton filmed the entire thing. I am hoping he will put that on the forum sometime soon.

There were no protests filed, and had there been, it would have been heard. We simply try to avoid nit-picky crap. This wasn't one of those.., when there is damage you have a problem and it needs to be addressed.

With about 30 seconds left it appeared Skip (ARC22) and Todd (Damaged N20) were approaching slowly to the starboard end of the line. (OH, and by the way, Jake, I set a very heavily favored port end, knowing if I didn't set it that way everyone would be at the windward end, and even so, they still were for some reason. The hot boats did start down the line and most of jumped out to nice leads)
It appeared Skip thought he might get in between Todd and the mark, but when Todd sheeted in the boat obviously pointed higher and closed the gap.
There was a boat above skip, so he could not go up (although in hindsight it would been just a bump, not a piercing of a hull). It appeared to me he tried to drive behind Todd's stern. As you all know with the amount of purchase on an ARC22 Mainsheet System, that sail is not going to go flying out to allow such a dramatic turn.
So, you had a mainsail trying to take the boat to windward, and hulls trying unsuccessfully to head down.
The result was the rudders coming out and up and becoming useless, the bow going down, and the sprit just a foot or so off the water just before the spearing.

At any rate, that was what I saw. Perhaps the video will show something a bit different.

It is amazing that someone like Matt would be ready to jail, lynch Skip and wanting to take it to the Supreme Court not knowing a damn thing about it. Of course, Matt loves to blatantly jump on my case at every chance. By the way, the damage was above the waterline and nothing was structural. We suggested Todd duct tape it and sail on. I know I would have. Hell, it keeps ducks floating.

For what it's worth, I wasn't complaining about the line...it's just one other factor to consider.

But, (I'm being quite serious - not sarcastic) was it really port favored? Did I misread it THAT much?

Sorry you feel I "viciously" attacked you, Rick, because I didn't. I asked a simple question - why wasn't there a DSQ/RAF after the collision? Todd H. responded with "protests aren't allowed," which I thought was highly unusual. Todd R. PM'd me, thanking me for bringing it up and expressing his frustration with Skip's unresponsiveness and unwillingness to accept responsibility. So I kept at it.

It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out. Then what? Who's going to pay to repair or replace that hull?

I'm not the only one that smells unsportsmanlike behavior here, so don't lay it on me for stating the obvious. You didn't bother to vilify JC, JDub, or even Ding who agreed that Skip displayed "poor form". I suggested that Skip should have RAF'd, which is the sportsmanlike thing to do when there's major damage - even if you had the right of way.

You could have been proactive in dealing with this, but you weren't. "Oh, it's OK - just duct tape it up and keep going. We're all just one happy family - can't we all get along?" Bull$hit. I don't see you writing a check to cover Todd's damages.

And US Sailing is watching.

As MICREEK indicated, this sort of damage and the discussion about the two skippers involved not working this out amenably will tend to drive off the new entries into distance sailing for fear of having to cough up big money to fix things that may not have been all their fault.

Sure, scuffs and bumps are to be anticipated in racing, but I think this damage is well beyond this threshold and should fall under general seamanship rules (first rule is avoid collision, second rule is to step up and do what's right).

All of us armchair skippers love to analyze what happened and point fingers, but the folks out there that morning didn't have the benefit of multiple points-of-view, slow motion, and instant replay.

I actually feel for both parties involved and hope it is resolved amicably as it would be sad to sully the reputation of fine sailors as well as the Steeplechase event itself.

Are we talking about port favored to the wind direction or port favored by the distance to the bridge? I'm pretty sure I couldn't have laid the start line on a port tack - maybe my recollection is not good. While it's possible that the left buoy might have been closer to the bridge, to start down there on the beginning of a reaching leg on an F18 with a fleet of monster boats could have meant potentially getting rolled all the way to the back of the fleet even with a perfect start. I've actually done that in this race before and it was a painful beginning to the day.

Ya THINK...... this is the same Organizing Authority that is running the Olympic Junior Selection and Art Stevens Junior regatta...

Why use Tradewinds ... because we told them that Tradewinds would be a popular regatta.

Take a look at the charter fees for Vipers for this event and you will see that people are spending serious coin to compete and they expect and deserve an event run by the book.

Why??? No surprises when you follow the book....

Screwing around with the process that the rest of the world has no problems with is indeed Bull$hit

it isn't even the person coughing up the money to fix the other boat. I believe that is what insurance is for

I just spoke with Riccardi and in the end it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault.
Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get. The ARC 22 (Skip) had no rights and bore away into the N-20 (Todd) which was to leeward of him. Is there any possible way this isn't the supercat's fault?

p.s. And by the way Rick, awesome work on the throttles. Evasive maneuvering at it's best. Maybe you've found the subject of your next seminar/book.

" it isn't even the person coughing up the money to fix the other boat. I believe that is what insurance is for "
You hope! Better read up on your maritime law if they don't. Like someone said, plastic can be fixed, glad it wasn't an eye or worse!

FYI, its not just a standard "here's a boat, have fun" charter. As far as I know the boats are being managed, they're being setup, and will be tuned for the teams, then they're being torn back down. Plus one of them is personally owned, (mine), that alone demands a premium damn it!

Spinoff topic re Tradewinds

simple question - who does Rick White have from US Sailing to govern the SIs and conduct of the event?

next question - why did US Sailing elect to combine all the major Youth Titles/opportunities into one weekend of sailing?

next question - What say so did the USA Formula 16 Class Association have in this final solution?

The ISAF expects due process and fair sailing that is rigorous and precisely managed.

BTW, coach boats for catamaran racing should be restrained from entering the course side of the race track/Starting Line and patroling the course. Their wakes will not ensure total fairness, and the required speed of pacing will introduce hazards. Coach boats should be corralled behind the Starting Line unless asked by the Race Comm for emergency assistance. OOPs - safety boats available???

br

Careful...we finally have US Sailing doing something positive with catamarans AND Olympics. Let's not tear ourselves to shreds before it even happens.

Oh fark...Please, Please, PLEASE no friggn' Coach Boats out on the course!

OR...put the kids on the F16's on an entirely separate course, far far away...

I'm not talking about Taylor and Matt, they know what they are doing and surely don't need a coach boat. I just don't want to see this turn into a big Opti regatta!

Umm, I know I didn't go to college but isn't that attacking someone?

Looks like in the Video, the ARC22 keeps going and doesn't turn back to see if Todd and Brandon are ok. What a dousche bag. Now he's reniging on taking responsibility? Sounds like the guy realy knows how to make lifelong friends.

None of my comments on this thread qualify as vicious.



"Attack" is a bit strong for any of the statements I've made. Besides, the example you cited, Lee, came after the first statement.

I'll admit to being critical the way this was handled. Rick takes umbrage with my criticism and calls it a "vicious attack". I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight because of that.

It could have been a lot worse
The moment of contact:


If Todd hadn't been flying a hull, he would have been speared. If the collision angle had been a bit less, the pole would have glanced off and hit Brendon.

You've dodged a huge bullet here, Rick. If you think you've limited your exposure with your lack of rules, you're mistaken. Lawyers are really expensive - even if you "win".

Didn't watch the video. I'm tethered to my phone right now, and the service is pretty sketchy. From the frame you put on there Matt it doesn't look like he would've gotten speared, and from where the damage was, (behind the rear beam) he wouldn't have gotten speared even if he wasn't flying a hull. While its just stroking my.......... ego, chances are if the ARC pole wasn't so low, and/or Blinky hadn't been flying a hull it probably would've glanced off by dragging a spin pole bridle, or there would've been bow to hull contact.

Either way, you're being a drama queen here about the potential outcomes. Its like saying Tripps red spray top could attract a bull from shore and send it charging out on the water. Not really but you're still being a queen.

You guys are all missing the fact that this is all the fault of Karl's new spinnaker pole. If Karl had not been holding up high, trying to stay out of the way to protect his new pole, the Super Cat could have gone up higher and missed the whole mele'.

But since Karl was up there in the way, trying to protect that damned worthless pole of his (just ask his wife) the SC had nowhere to go but...into the Inter 20.

Ask any Wave sailor how those damned Inter 20's just suck you in to their votex!

Dude, not while I'm drinking coffee, please.

You need to watch the video before you make any statements regarding it. I've been on a protest committee (2009 Hobie Tiger North Americans) where a skipper got speared at a mark rounding, so that type of injury is not unheard of. A Tiger's pole is a lot shorter than that lance on the ARC-20.

Bad things happen in the blink of an eye, when you least expect them to. All you can do as an organizer is be prepared. Explicitly invoking the Racing Rules of Sailing, having the appropriate insurance and having a written safety plan go a long way towards mitigating the accusation of negligence in a lawsuit.

Too bad I'm not still doing the starts and finishes as I did for many years when Rick was just one of the racers -- then you might have some REAL complaints. For the 1st day start I would go out and just put two buoys in the water roughly parallel to the bridge, with no account for wind direction or anything. And I just told them "Whatever you do, don't even think about being over early."

Then I drove down to Anne's Beach and waded out as far as I could and put a buoy in the water for the finish. If the tide went out before they finished, sometimes they had to practically drag their boats across the finish line.

This is not some kind of "official" race. It doesn't say in the instructions anything about it being sailed under the US Sailing RRS. The sailors are entirely on their own and responsible for themselves and for, hopefully, helping fellow sailors in distress -- and also resolving any problems among themselves. If the race cannot be done that way, there will no longer be a race -- simple as that.

This race was not even our idea -- it was the brainchild of a guy named Chris Hampshire. So in 1985 Chris and four other sailors, including Rick, from our Miami Hobie fleet, decided to see if it could be done. It worked, so the group decided to make it an annual event. Since we live down here, I volunteered to set the start and finish lines and do the scoring.

It would be great if someone else wants to volunteer to do the starts and finishes for a change. Rick would like to be able to sail in the race again.

Hi Mary: I was hoping to hear more about the H16 w/spinnaker. Did you get a chance to speak with them?

pgp, no, I didn't.

Okay, so!? This attititude that we are on some kind of US Sailing probabtion is at the very least annoying. May I remaind you Matt (US Sailing) that the mulithull comminity did nothing wrong yet we were flicked from the Olympics by the NMA that is "supposed" to represent us. Now we are in a "trial" period and if we behave ourselves we "might" get to stay. Really!? Is that the message you're sending us Matt? If any group needs to be on notice and watched carefully it's US Sailing! I know how the sausage is made Mr. Matt and it aint pretty.

It's also clear that you, Mark and Bert haven't picked up the phone and contacted ANYONE associated with Tradewinds to voice your concerns. Instead you would much rather post your "issues" here on the this forum? Hmmm... smells to me like someone in US Sailing doesn't want the event at Tradewinds and has an issue with Rick, how unlike US Sailing. Ah yes, US Sailing agenda driven politics... how I do miss that.

US Sailing,
Since you are keeping such a close eye on us, could you answer the questions that pop-up everytime some misguided soul wants to join US Sailing about how to go about doing it and whats in it for them besides a cashed check.
Why did you kick the Tornadoes out of the Olympics and try to make up by starting a doomed to fail program instead?

Dave... give it a rest... you and US Sailing had a parting of the ways. You were on the call... you know there is no probation.

Your history summary is twisted and wrong.

What there is.... are standards that must be met if we want to be recognized as playing the same game the rest of the racing world does... Matt and I have continually spoken up about Tradewinds and Rick's choice to do it his way and be damned about the RRS. Its an annual event noting what is missing. Everybody chooses to play or not play at tradewinds. This year a USSA judge will take control of the rules and the issues will be moot.

The Steeple chase is very different!!!
All of us were under the impression that the steeplechase was a standard distance race under the RRS. So you get questions like.. ... why the scoring issues.. no RAF or DSQ
Why no protest hearing
Why no retirement after the collision.
We were ignorant of the actual rules for steeple chase.

Mary just stated.. The Steeplechase does not follow the RRS. ...never will.... Bottom line... the Col regs are the only rules worth discussing.

I suspect that under those rules all boats are at fault and they pay their own damages.

If you guys have an issue with Tradewinds do the needful and contact those responsible for the event get your issues addressed and quit bringing up the past and quit bringing up an issue from a regatta that has NOTHING and I repeat for you Mark just in case you missed it NOTHING TO DO WITH TRADEWINDS!!!!

If we aren't on probation why are be being watched?

As for giving it a rest I'll give it a rest when US Sailing stops looking down their nose at us and making us feel like we are the ones responsible for the Olympic debacle.

You do know I was booted from US Sailing, right? There was no happy parting of the ways. So I can now speak freely and plan to do so. If you guys want to beat up on a group that is trying to actually serve the needs of the sailors you better do your homework first. And here's an idea... offer to lend a hand.

Did you chew on your lead painted crib when you were a baby?

What is RAF?

Retire after finishing.

Booted for what?

I was never given a reason. I suspect US Sailing didn't like being called on their sh!t, I was without a doubt a pain in their a$$. I heard through the grapevine that I didn't do as I was told and technically I couldn't be the Multihull Championship Chair and the MHC Chair I think the Chair thing is what they hung their hat on.

Whoa! We, the curious of mind, buyers of boats, payor of dues and regatta fees want to hear the whole story.

Someone told you to take a hike? President of the largest catamaran class in the country? Without an explanation?

Under who's authority? As a paid-up member of USS I'd like to know if you please.

You guys really need to put the hard-on you have for US Sailing back in your pants. Get over it already.

There is a widely held perception by the broader sailboat racing establishment that multihull sailors - especially beach cat sailors - are a bunch of hacks, and this little clusterf##k doesn't help. You have no idea how difficult it was for me to overcome this perception in the process of becoming a certified National Race Officer - the only NRO who's primary racing discipline is beach cats.

It would be one thing if Steeplechase remained a little-known fun race, but through the magic of the Internet - it's perceived as a big deal, promoted with front page coverage on a web site with international viewership and shared around to thousands of people on Facebook. Perception is reality, therefore Steeplechase is a big deal.

Whether you like it or not, US Sailing is the gatekeeper to the Olympics, the Olympic development program, the ISAF Worlds, the ISAF Youth Worlds, and yeah - the US Multihull Championship (Alter Cup) and Youth Multihull Championship (Stevens Trophy). They're in control, and if you don't play nice (according to them), you get benched, which Ding found out the hard way.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, Ding - Steplechase and Tradewinds do have a strong connection in Cat Sailor and Rick White. That's the perception at least. Again, perception is reality.

Kudos to Jamie L., Sarah N. and everybody else for getting Tradewinds hooked up with the Olympic Development, ISAF Youth Worlds and the US Youth Multihull Championships. But there's a lot a lot riding on Tradewinds. It's our chance to show the racing establishment that we really do know our stuff and that we can conduct the game at the highest level. We're not going to change the perception that we're hacks by screaming "WE DESERVE TO BE RESPECTED! RESPECT US!" Respect is earned, not given.

The confidence level at US Sailing of Tradewinds going off without a hitch is kind of low right now. Three certified judges is a start, but judges tend to be reactive - patching things up after the fact - not good. High-quality, certified race management teams keep bad stuff from happening in the first place. There are no shortage of them in Florida in January, and I hope Rick has really good certified people lined up. Having certified people spreads the blame if things go sideways.

And if you think I have any ulterior motive in this, you're wrong. I don't have the time in January to even consider attending Tradewinds as a race official (as if Rick would have me) or a competitor. The Hobie Class doesn't have a dog in this fight, either.

You know that is not such bad idea for distance racing. Coming from racing cars I was shocked to find out that each person was not responsible for their own damage.

Who is this "we" you speak of? You won't even be there!

Hack! I doubt anyone in USS, not all ready a multihull class member can even rig a catamaran.

Respect? I think Jobson needs to bring his butt to Tradewinds and at least show he can sail any one of these boats around a course! Maybe Rick will lend him a Wave.

Has beens! The whole damn bunch of you!

The problem is that you are confusing an extreme distance race with a buoy race. This is not the first year for the Tradewinds. I am sure the Rick will do a great job and the Tradewinds will be a success.

And Pete, calm down a bit...

Competition is all about zeal.

If you're so concerned about beachcat sailing "going legit" perhaps you should start by participating in a class that didn't become popular by operating outside the establishment during its genesis.

Clearly the effort to legitimize cat sailing as an olympic sport has caused some of community to sacrifice the grassroots adventurist spirit on the altar of establishment approval.

If the price of admission to the Olympics is the firesale of the beachcat renegade character, is it really worth it?

No. Catamarans don't need the Olympics, it is up to the Olympics to decide if they need, or want, catamarans.

Not so sure it's a good idea either. To expect/believe that the liable party would not pay for damages might encourage the distance racer to stay at home. Just saying. . .

>You guys really need to put the hard-on you have for US Sailing back in your pants. Get over it already.<
>"WE DESERVE TO BE RESPECTED! RESPECT US!"<

I have lost RESPECT for monohull sailors after:
1. Chris Draper's ACWS antics at the start of race... in Plymouth causing Artemis collision with GCR.
2. Ben Ainslie's gross misconduct ATTACKING photographer on camera boat
at Perth 2011 ISAF Sailing World Championship http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/sa...hotographer/story-e6frg1wu-1226219055690
and http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...a9217cc0cc&showtopic=129411&st=0

What do you think his insurance company is going to do? They don't just pay off because you admit you are responsible...
What do you think they say when you don't admit fault?
They will investigate... but ... It's not an official race under the RRS. There is no protest committee report. There is no jury finding. You have some video with known problems of perspective in video data. They use the Col Regs to evaluate liability.

From the Supercat's company POV, they could look at the video and say the N20 came up and did not keep a proper lookout... so they tell the N20...you are 40% at fault (liable)... we pay 60% of the repair. You can then go to your insurance company and see if they will fight it out on your behalf ... So, you file a claim on your own insurance... But if they agree with the supercat insurance company... $$$ x 40% minus your deductible is the check we cut you.

The whole thing sucks... liability gets decided by the insurance companies...

The RRS requires responsibility on the part of the sailors... This is enforced by peer pressure and your integrity... When you don't have agreement on facts... It won't be pretty.

Best we can do is a set of rules and a fair process... this is why we use the RRS and WHY US Sailing matters to you... If you don't agree with the lynch mob/protest committee at your beach... you can appeal.

Too bad these options are not available for this fubar

Sorry for the double post (now deleted). Was having browser issues.

BRAVO
Is it really worth it. I think not. Who cares, we've done our own thing forever.

mark,
When was the last time you filed for an insurance claim.
I had to go through one to get my boat repaired this Jan. and all it took was the at fault skipper's call to his insurance company and a quote from a repair shop for my boat repairs. Done.

I can guarantee if he doesn't make it right, I will personally see that he is not allowed to race any distance races I see him entered into.

Oh, come on Todd! First you bitch about being tossed out of the Olympics and now you reject the baggage that comes with being in the 5-ring circus? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

In speaking with Todd R. (and yeah, I said "speaking" - like on the phone), it's my understanding that he did not have insurance for this.

I was not going to bring it up but him renigging really has me chapped. He actually thought the "Mark" was considered an obstruction and he had rights.

I don't recall any of this hoop jumping BS when the Ts were in the Olympics and honestly don't see why it's so important to the "Multihull community" It'll be important to one man and one woman. The bitching I have is more about US Sailing stabbing us in the back and sorry but I probably won't "get over it".

End of Hi-jack from me.

As the US Sailing Multihull Council Chair, let me see if I can help…


Easy, go to the US Sailing website and navigate to Membership: http://www1.ussailing.org/membership/SelectMemberType.aspx

If you want to be counted as a Multihull sailor on the Member Partner Program (formerly known as Golden Anchor Program): https://www1.ussailing.org/membership/MPP/Default.aspx?ycid=100729I

Granted, the MPP link is not as easy to find, and is one of the many things we will be improving over the winter. The MHC portion of the US Sailing website has been badly neglected for years. This is OUR fault, not US Sailing, and the staff is pushing us hard to improve the content (we have several multihull sailors working on this as we speak), which can only help us in the big picture.



Again, do a little research, and you will find this (way too much to list here): http://membership.ussailing.org/sailors.htm

If there are additional benefits that you would like to see, send me an email. Jack has been asking me repeatedly for what else the organization can do to improve the value to its members.



This isn’t entirely accurate, but is a commonly held perception. I’ll leave it at that, let’s focus on making the most of the opportunity that we do have (and again, how many people here were directly affected by either decision?).


Unless you choose not to join, US Sailing is not “us and them.” It is a member-driven organization, run primarily by volunteers. Yes, there is a staff, but they are there to serve the members per the bylaws and regulations of the member-based organization. Join and step up to help, and you will see that the doors are wide open, and there is an army of people interested in helping us to be successful.


As for the rules debate; I totally understand that it is possible to run any race, anywhere, using any rules that you want. My question is, why would you? Most people racing at this event are used to racing under RRS, and when boat-on-boat situations arise, will probably expect the other boats to act accordingly.

Moreover, in this case, the event flyer says:

How is this intended to mean that the RRS do not apply? What other racing rules are you invoking?

Other than this little detail, I certainly don’t see any “liability” issues for the (non-) RC stemming from the collision. The collision was caused not by and act or omission of the (non-) RC, but by the actions of the three boats involved. Reaching starts are not unheard of, and the setup of the start line did not cause the collision [if anything, by having the (non-) RC start boat off anchor, additional carnage was avoided]. Furthermore, as I often tell Opti kids, even if I have a really bad day and give you the worst start line in history, it's your job to start properly and not hit anyone.

As an aside, I am also a certified (Regional) Race Officer. I have been doing this since 1997, and since 2007, have been heavily involved with monohull regattas of varying levels, up to and including nationals, NAs, Worlds and US Sailing championships. I have never felt any sort of mistreatment from US Sailing or any other club due to my status as a cat sailor. If anything, most places are ecstatic to have me show up with a solid knowledge of what is going on.

There is nothing to be gained by anyone here if the Tradewinds/Stevens Trophy event fails in any way. I did reach out to Rick, and offered to help. He told me he needed judges, and I gave him some advice on how to find some without having to spend much money. He did not mention a need for an RO, but I would be willing to help if needed, or there is a long list of certified folks in FL that could probably help.

Hope this helps.

Mike

This seems to support what looks like "cross the line at all costs" attitude in the video.

Like I've said already, there's always more to the story.

From the other thread:



I guess now we know (albeit through hearsay reported here) that Wave thought they were ROW, and that is why they didn't retire.

Mike

Oh for gods sake... you can't do this... The RRS don't allow you to discriminate...
Do you really want to run another race under cowboy rules...(there are no rules)?

Do you really plan to live life as chief judge and executioner for all distance racing entries?

If you think you have a case, you have to make it to US Sailing to get him tossed.... . but this race was not run using those rules.
oops!!!

Todd... the reason you have US sailing is to have a choice between... Lynch Mob and Protest Committee, run by a US Sailing trained judge with a backup of an appeal process.
They are ALL VOLUNTEERS and take it SERIOUSLY. Oh... and they expect us to act in good faith and be adults!

When I go to a regatta... I expect the OA to run the race by the book. That means... a qualified judge and pro.
Life is short.... I don't need to race in cowboy events with frontier justice... or as JW puts... justice in the sand!

Precisely. Its gotten all way too serious.

To the point where its not fun anymore.

Everyone is entitled to define "fun" for themselves.

Getting my hull ripped open with no recourse does not meet my definition of fun.

Mike

Of course I can't "Toss" someone out. But I can send an email to the person in charge with a link to the video stating that Wave refused to make amends to Adrenaline after he agreed to.

Can't we move all this to the other thread? Hard to follow two threads.

+1

umm... Labor Day... ... Sheer incompetence by the YC appointing an ignorant PRO setting up a lose lose lose situations on the water..... Should have retired after two races death reaching head on at Chesapeake 20's and Albacores ........ the 4th race took me out.

I made a mistake... I was so flipping mad that I did not follow the process all the way through.... There was no dispute between me and the other skipper and he took liability and responsibility.. (no insurance problems.. that is not the case at steeplechase) BUT... the mistake I made was not completing the game and having the score sheet reflect his RAF and my redress given... And I missed the opportunity to hold the YC accountable for the bozo they put in charge.

The crash results effect everyone's scores and that is the game... so... I screwed the game up a bit.

(I only realized my mistake after getting spoken to by the fleet elders in a big boat class for letting a sailor get away with a foul (he was in contention for silver we were new) .... They were very clear... this fleet does not play the game that way... its not fair to the fleet...Our pass meant that Port took no turns and won. AND... if you get away with it in a 2 knot drifter.... do you try it at 15 knotts when you could kill somebody??... They want bright lines in that fleet... set by the RRS)

How bad can it get...See Jack's comments about Waves barging and playing bumper boats... no fouls called..... he draws a thread to the steeple chase crash... OOPS!

Yeah... and what do you expect the OA to do? They will not get involved in a p!ss!ing contest.

The mistake was not running the race under the RRS. Not having a protest hearing, to hear testimony, fill out the paperwork, and issue a judgment.

I heard him and saw him shake and then he changed his mind... Ok... now what. .... this happens all the time. Tis why we have contracts in life... the RRS is the contract we sign up to play this game... . when you don't... Anything goes.

Back to Steeplechase again:
I can't understand what all the fuss is about. In the first place, this is a distance race, there is no surf involved, so in 27 years there has only been one other accidental collision between two boats, as far as I know.
In the second place, Skip will be paying for the damages to Todd's boat.
So what is the problem?

Problem is that Skip is trying to get out of it.

From the first (long) post on page 12…

RRS (unchanged) provides for protests. Sailors at this event are used to RRS, and your flyer "hints" at RRS.

What I still want to know is, how is it beneficial to the sailors to not have a protest committee?

Mike

No, Craig, he wasn't trying to get out of it. Please see his post on the other thread.
He happens to be a very methodical person, but certainly upright and honest.
Rick

+1

Where's that picture of Dave White's Wave after the viscious N20 downwind attack at T-winds a few years back?