In problems after capsizing in big waves

A few weeks ago there was a discussion here about ways of optimal uprighting, but let me bring up another matter concerning this topic.

This weekend it happended to me again after three years of avoiding capsizing, that I was pushed over. Far after the break zone I was on my way back to the beach and was overtaken by a steep freak wave of about 4 to 5 meter
I started riding the wave with my tail but at one point the wave started to break and I was going to dive with my bowes down.

So in fear I steered up the wave again but the breaking water pushed me on my side. (Mainsail couldn't be unsheeted quickly because it was stalling). So I went over completly.

Now, in contrast with the above mentioned discussion, in waves uprighting is often very simple. The hulls are catched bij the waves, so they turn off the waves while the mast and sail stays backwards in the waves.
When uprighting you wait till a next wave lifts the sail while the hull stays relatively low at the bottom of the wave.
It's easy said, but in practice you can indeed upright in seconds.

But, there is ofcourse always a but. Afterwards I could not climb on board; I struggled 10 minutes but nothing worked.

Problem is with my latest 15 footer: I have to stay nearby the front of the windwardhull because going to the transom will capsize the cat backwards. Remind that the cat is unloaded and a playing ball for the incoming waves. No pressure of the sail so the bowes are lifted constanly.

Exhausted, this singlehanded oldy couldn't lift himself in one move against the forebeam. With my momentary cat I don't have a dolphinstriker, so there is nothing to help there and my freeboard appears to be too high, especially with lifted bowes.

My question is: Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have a solution

VERY familiar.

I run a heavy, somewhat stretchy dock line from the rear cross bar to the bridle. Then when trying to get aboard, I just put a KNEE on the line and using my hands on the hull just fall forward onto the hull, then it's a simple matter of rolling over into a sitting position. I use a small line tied around the forward cross bar to keep the larger line from dragging. Also, I've a few knots in the large line to keep my knee from sliding.

I emphasise KNEE because I tried for a year to use my foot and it just threw me off balance!

Just to have it right: with bridle you mean forestaybridle?
So this dock line goes from behind to the front and is hanging overboard when needed? Is there one line in the middle or two each on the side?

A few weekends ago we rescued a cat with a single righting line tied to the mastfoot and found it difficult to climb into after righted.
I made a bowline in the bitter end of the righting line and used it as a step to climb aboard. Maybe the knee would have been easier to balance, I should give it a try the next time.

May I suggest a structured approach to pull-ups and dip exercises.

It is never to late to work out and gain strength.

For those fresh to strength training, might I suggest..:

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Gymn...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1323713452&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Weeks-Pull-Up...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1323713386&sr=1-1

All you need is motivation and a set of rings for home use, or a pull-up bar.
Tip for hardcore capsizers: When trying to pull up from the water, try to place your wrists on the egde of the hull, not the palms or hanging from your fingers. This will make it much easier to transition from the pulling to the pushing movement.

Okay Pgp, thanks for your bright idea for the use of the knee.

But let me play a little devils advocate:

First I'm afraid to leave my comfortable place inside the space of the front of the hulls after uprighting. I'm protected there for incoming waves and at least I don't see them anymore!
I should have to dive under the windward hull to get to the outside for grabbing the dockline. There is this fear that, when I come on the surface, the cat is just pushed away by
an incoming wave (I didn't tell you, but I cannot swim anymore caused by shoulderproblems)

But I can ofcourse move the whole trick to the frontal inside of the windward hull. Problem is that with my asymmetric hull shape, this inside is very rounded while the outside is flat. So my knee threatens to disappear to much under the hull.

But now I have to think again everything ten times over. I'm sure you have given me the important brainwave.

I haven't done it in big waves, but my method of climbing back aboard is pretty simple. I move to a bow; push it down to the point where I can sit on it; and then slide aft to the trampoline. That's much easier than my previous technique of using the righting bar wires as a ladder.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Yes, to the forestay bridle. The line runs under the trampoline and is always in place.

I use just one line, along the port hull, because my spinnaker gear takes up too much room on the other side.

If you use just a bowline and loop and the boat has any headway, you end up being dragged under the boat.

It is easy to become fatigued so practice your plan and learn it well so you can reboard quickly.

an 800lb guerrilla couldn't push my bow down to the water. way to much freeboard and hull volume.

I have struggled until exhaustion trying to pull myself up the bows/front beam. I now go to the site, grab a trap bungee, get hold of the handle and pull my feet up. Once a foot or 2 is on board, i pull my hips/butt over and then my chest/head.

I think you have to really ask yourself if it is a good idea to go sailing by yourself on the north sea this time of year.
Just last thursday 11 meter waves where recorded during a storm.
Maybe you are just a bit "eigenwijs", but hypothermia is a real danger when you float around in the cold water for 30 minutes.

This is one of my favorite subjects, because I cannot get back aboard my Hobie Wave. Still have not come up with a good solution, including the ones suggested above.

Tony, fellowcountryman, I really like your concern about my adventures at the north sea this time of year.

But look to it from my site: I'm 65, not as strong anymore as I used to be, I have on each site a torn shoulder labrum. Which cannot be repaired anymore by surgery.
Still I can manage to sail singlehanded at sea with a lot of tricks and technique. Besides that I windsurf already 35 years at sea, summer and winter time and my specialty has always been storms.


So, I feel at home alone at sea in cold water between big waves. And my real problems are my shoulders, and my wornout knees and tendinitus arms. And hence my urge to open this thread.

Didn't really say anything to help your case

Labrum or rotator cuff?
Doing any prehap/rehab on the labrums?

I would look outside the ordinary medic school/physio stuff for exercises to improve the situation.

I was thinking a rope ladder with wooden steps that you can roll up and keep on the rear beam, but that may not look "fast"...

And given Pete Cullum's "issue" at Steeplechase, I'm considering one of those line bags you throw like a football with about 150' of line in it to toss at whomever falls overboard so it improves their chances of staying connected to the boat once I park it /flip it

Conversely, perhaps I could attach the line bag to the beam AND myself so the line stays tucked up in the little pouch unless I fall overboard. The 150' should give me enough time to orient myself and hold it rather than get dragged like a shorter static line would...

Can you get to the stern OK?
I figured out how to mount at the stern easily when I had an injured shoulder: 1) slide aft & get between the stern and the tiller crossbar while the boat is stalled to weather. (You can steer it up that way too) 2) Get one foot up on the deck while facing DOWNWARD. 3)reach way up onto the tramp and grab the hiking strap with the closest arm to the boat, because THAT ELBOW IS UP. 4) Now POWER body up & over the rear crossbar because you lift by using the muscles on the FRONT of your leg, and your arm is bent the correct way for good strength. You don't even need both legs on the stern hull, just one leg.

Its even good for fatboys! Try it on a nice day.

NOTE: Doing this facing UP does not work because you have to use hamstrings, and your elbow cannot bend the wrong way= no strength.

For Mary: see above. The stern deck is much closer to the water- so park the boat, slide back underneath, and try this......

You should make a video and post it

To be honest, it sounds good but what about getting air while manouvering your body into position?

Okay,last participants.

So, despite the strenght I still have, I'm fysically a bit disabled with regard to catsailing. And I'm sure that certainly made the climbing aboard this weekend impossible.
(Rolf !, an orthopedic professor tried to reconstruct my labrum on one site, but invain because a few years later it was ripped off again).
But there are more sailors ( like mary or MN3 or pgp ) who have more or less the same problem for whatever ( less severe) reason.

But as I explained, going via the stern in big waves is impossible because the cat will flipover backwards.
Even via the outside windwardsite is under those conditions very risky for loosing contact with my cat. And also there is the danger that I get trapped in my open net tramp with the trapezehook down.

So I'm now still thinking of a solution from the inside space between the hulls just in front of the frontbeam.
With a rope/woodenstep help which is kept straight down when loaded with my knee or foot by a separate line to the bridle. Or something like this.

http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant...311&Category_Code=&Store_Code=MS

I went to one of these,and think it is well worth the money.

If you rig a trap handle on a trap wire low enough to grab hold of with both hands at a comfortable stretch from the water you can hook both your legs over your bow near the beam, then use both arms to hold your weight and your legs to pull you up to get your backside on the beam then roll sideways over the main beam with a bit of help from your arms. This is only a lift of 2ft from the water. The wire with a handle could even run straight down your mast as long as it doesn't foul your jib

Pete, replacing my trapeze hook by this new design plate is in any case a brilliant idea. Thank you for reminding me; it exists already for years, but I forgot it completly.

Jeff, I think I understand the move, but I 've to try it.
I'm thinking of making a trial stand of my cat on the trailer with the bows 1 or 2 ft above the ground. So I can try all these different methods on forehand in a dry manner; a first scan so to say.

I have to admit that I am to blame seriously for not having tried this procedure with my new cat somewhere in the three years I sail it already. Why didn't I jump sometime in the summer in lazy flat conditions overboard!!!!!!!

With all my so-called experience which made me so cautious. Stupid,stupid, or did mr. Altzheimer already passed silently my window. Hmmm .. do I try to find excuses now.

Life of a northsea junkie remains difficult.


ronald reeder

I have never had this need but I spent some time thinking about the issue before going to sleep last night.

I think any kind of contraption like rope ladders etc in the water will be hard to use. Rope ladders themself are hard to climb.
From the climbing world there is a thing called a "Jumar" or in its modern form: Petzl Ascender. With a classic technical climbing setup with one Ascender and one "basic" rope lock, you could use the same technique as long as you have one 9mm line leading into the water.
It is quite a setup to get to know, and best if rigged before the capsize. But it should allow you to not use significant power in your upper body and put the load on your legs instead.
Look at the picture and you can see that he is using a sling down to his foot to "climb" the line.

Just a suggestion if you have to rely on your lower body to get onboard the boat after a capsize. Might be unsafe as well if you find yourself trapped under a speeding boat after righting..
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/ascenders

Just a thought, but why not mount some footstraps on the inside of the bows, near the front cross bar?

Rolf, Dennis: one of the biggest problems I find is that the boat gathers headway almost immediatly, and tends to run over you! This is not in the extreme but all the gear (I've tried several arrangements) seems to get swept under the boat. The line I use runs the length of the hull, and is attached at both ends. So, if you should find yourself under the boat you can pull yourself forward again. Even the little resistance the knot provides for your knee is enough to overcome the boat's forward motion with little effort. Simpler is better in this case, imo.

Before righting you should have opened all sheets, downhaul traveller and rotator. If you hang at the bow or front beam the boat should not bear away and gain speed, maybe it goes backward. If so you can let drift your legs to the bows, lay one feet on the bridle wire. Then you can easily lift the other leg and one arm on the hull. Then you are up.

Going to the rear beam sounds dangerous if there are waves. The boat could easily bear away. In the best case it just flips over, in the worst you can say goodbay to the boat.

That doesn't sound all that useful. When you are in the water, you are much lighter than when on dry land.

I'm a little hesitant to give advice here because I have never dealt with such waves, but it seems to me that timing would have a lot to do with it. When the boat is pointing up toward the crest, you would be pulling yourself somewhat down hill which should help.

So far, all I have needed to do in order to get on board is a couple strong kicks to swim myself up high enough to get back on board. I hardly use my upper body at all. Just like getting out of a pool.

Daniel, You are right about the land trial. I tried it to day, but found myself lifting in impossible positions my 100 kg.
Ended up using a strong painkiller because my shoulders protested immmediatly.

The getting-out-of-the-pool method you described, is ofcourse the most logical method, but I don't manage that anymore.


Smith, you are right about the lack of headway when unsheeting completly. I do this always before uprighting. Also to prevent the unwanted roll-over to the next site when the boat has come up and tends to heel furher.
The method you described though, is abacadabra for me. I couldn't visualize it.

I assist in a disabled sailing program at our club, we found that if you need to use your leg to push up, a rope ladder is more of a problem. We had an A Cat sailor who couldn't get back on his boat due to health and we put a rigid step on one side of his main beam that folded up onto the tramp when not in use. When needed he just flipped it over and it used the main beam as it's backstay.

Yes Jeff, had I better known three years ago, when I was designing and building my cat, what I know now.
I wouldn't have given the hulls near the front beam a freeboard of 60 cm and/or I should certainly have invented some kind of foldable something on the beam or hull.

I could not foresee that moment that my shoulders start so soon detoriating so much!
To adapt this now, is a lot of more work, but maybe it should finally come to that kind of solutions.

I'm still pondering about more sturdy looking solutions. There is ofcourse some mental barrier to take.



So far I learned for the solution to be:

-simple and strong and water-fixed for incoming waves round the cat

-it has to made ready within seconds after climbing on the hull in the water and before the start of the uprighting.

-after the uprighting it has to function also for keeping the cat stabilized in big waves.

-also it has to function as a grabbing facility for avoiding the cat to sweep through after the initial uprighting.

Looking in the past I expect to use it only max once a year, but when I use it, it has to function! Still choosing a difficult but 100% working system doesn't win it for a simple 70% working system.
I think.

On the bottom of our trampolines - we've always stitched in webbing straps 12" from the tramp edge on each side. It makes getting up on the hull much easier - although if you're tired, its still a chore.

"Even via the outside windwardsite is under those conditions very risky for loosing contact with my cat. And also there is the danger that I get trapped in my open net tramp with the trapezehook down."- NSJ

You deserve alot of respect, sailing your boat the way you do, in the coditions you do, etc.- I watched some of your vids you posted.

There have been many threads over the years, and a lengthy one I remember after one of the Tornado sailors drown years ago.
Anyway,
with your mesh tramp, as you well know, using a standard hook or your trap is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
Granted, any line (we all use such small lines these days) could get wrapped around a hook anywhere, at anytime.
One of my sloutions is wearing a sit type harness that doesn't go over my head, and release it in an emergency in this situation of a hook fouled/caught of something I couldn't get free of. HOwever, I realize that this may not even be the case in some hypothetical situations.

Threads like this are great, and we all learn from them- carry on

Some harnesses (probably for kite or windsurf) include a knife for that, I carry a swiss army knife tied to my shorts. I doubt it will be easy to use but it's better than nothing. The hook is not the only risk, as an example, I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser with the tiller inside his PFD.

For that you wear a rash guard over the top of your PFD and harness. You do look like the Michelin Man, but you eliminate all loose ends and orifices that can tangle you up.

My Magic Marine harness came with a safety knife tucked in a pouch hold in place by a piece of velcro, easily accessible. It is a very nice tool with no sharp edges but still capable of cutting all lines and straps on board.

My Magic Marine Revolution (which I advice everybody who has backproblems) has the same safety knife described above.

But this spring, when I was trapped with my trapeze hook in my trampnet, it wasn't a big help. Somehow I couldn't reach for it.

With regard to the trapeze hook, I always wondered why the cat scene did not switch to triangle formed hooks like we did in the windsurf scene.
I can still remember me the day, about 30 years ago, that I was trapped with my single trapeze hook under my windsurfsail. I had imitated this hook on a piece of wood, looking at a obscure picture taken in Hawaii. Trapezes where just invented and not for sale in Holland. Until this triangle hooks came on the market, I always surfed with a knife attached to my suit.

This triangle principle by the way leads the trapeze rope always to the smaller end, so it can be freed easely when tangled around the hook. Nowadays the trapeze ropes are also changed by ropes with a rather stiff tube around, so they tangle less.

This summer I got trapped again under water with my windsurf trapeze when my sail washed over a fixed thight swimming line for the coast, while my board and me were washed underneath. Still it took me almost a minute to free myself, holding breath.

So hooks and lines never go well together and are always a potential danger.

With that in mind, I'm now trying to fabricate a keyhole system for my Revolution cat trapeze. Based on a flat plate.

Several manufacturers have harness crossbars where you can pull a tab and disconnect the hook from the harness. yes you may lose the hook but better than a knife to the tramp.

Yes, I know the systems. But everything which I had in hand, seemed for me too weak, too fluky, too insecure.
The hook itself (because of the system) always has a little movement in its attachment. Gives me a very uncomfortable feeling when hanging out.

In brief, I don't trust them.

Looking at the kitesurf scene where they have a lot of experience with emergency releases, they only use release-systems in the ropes themselves. And even that is not always 100% working when needed.

Maybe someone has better experience, please convince me.