Catsailor.com

ROW and protests

Posted By: pgp

ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:07 PM

There is a concern which has been posed by a lot better sailors than me. It involves the spinnaker boats on the downwind and windward boats coming into "A" mark. Some would like to see the rule changed for safety sake.

What are the rules and when is a protest appropriate? For myself I'm interested in hearing from our resident judge(s) on this.

I know it's been beaten to death but the situation still exists!
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:09 PM

Rules: P/S and W/L. Pretty simple.

Until boats change course, of course... whistle

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:18 PM

Ban spinnakers, they are just a fad after all.
Posted By: Jake

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
There is a concern which has been posed by a lot better sailors than me. It involves the spinnaker boats on the downwind and windward boats coming into "A" mark. Some would like to see the rule changed for safety sake.

What are the rules and when is a protest appropriate? For myself I'm interested in hearing from our resident judge(s) on this.

I know it's been beaten to death but the situation still exists!


If the race committee sets an offset mark to provide some separation between the boats rounding and the boats approaching, it shouldn't be much of an issue.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Rules: P/S and W/L. Pretty simple.

Until boats change course, of course... whistle

Mike


So, if I'm on port tack, going to weather and a spin boat comes roaring down on top of me (also on port) what should I do?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by brucat
Rules: P/S and W/L. Pretty simple.

Until boats change course, of course... whistle

Mike


So, if I'm on port tack, going to weather and a spin boat comes roaring down on top of me (also on port) what should I do?

If it's an ARC22, better pray . . .
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by brucat
Rules: P/S and W/L. Pretty simple.

Until boats change course, of course... whistle

Mike



So, if I'm on port tack, going to weather and a spin boat comes roaring down on top of me (also on port) what should I do?


I usually yell "windward boat keep clear". This does two things... it let's them know you are there and that you are leeward and you have rights.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
So, if I'm on port tack, going to weather and a spin boat comes roaring down on top of me (also on port) what should I do?


Be sure to wear a wetsuit? Buy Karl's red main?
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:37 PM

There's an idea, I had been going into my duck and cover routine.

Whataya do if they just keep coming and you have to radically alter course to keep from getting cut in half?
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:39 PM

You would be expected to avoid contact RRS 14. The other boat will have broken RRS 11. You hail them and let them know that you are protesting them. I would also check to see who else is in the area to validate your protest.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:39 PM

Waiting for our USS rep to wade in...
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:41 PM

Like has been said above, the rules that apply are pretty simple:

Rule 10: On opposite tacks (port starboard)
Rule 11: On same tack, overlapped (windward leeward)

So, if a port tack upwind boat and a port tack downwind boat are approaching, the downwind boat is windward and needs to keep clear.

As the ROW boat, it is important that you don't make any course changes that could break rule 16.1 or 16.2

The best idea is to hold a steady course, make a clear hail (I like "leeward boat") and allow the give way boat to avoid you. Obviously, if that boat doesn't look like they are altering, then you should alter course to avoid a collision, then protest.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:44 PM

Is there any distinction, according to USS, between rockstar boats and hacks just plodding along (that would be me)?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:46 PM

Yelling is probably most effective.
Its important to stay in clean air so sometimes its better to tack away well in advance, if they do see you in time there is a chance they will gybe right on top of you.
Or worse, they do a crashgybe and they capsize.
(Thats how I nearly had a mast land on my head at the last worlds).
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
There's an idea, I had been going into my duck and cover routine.

Whataya do if they just keep coming and you have to radically alter course to keep from getting cut in half?


Do what you have to do to avoid then protest, which is what you do whenever there is a blatant rules violation.

I've had many upwind/downwind, windward/leeward encounters and as soon the windward boat knew I was there they altered course and we both went about our business.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Is there any distinction, according to USS, between rockstar boats and hacks just plodding along (that would be me)?


Nope! Although there are some that think there should be and I believe it's covered in the douchebag section of the RRS.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 07:52 PM

Well, I usually just try to stay out of the way, but up in the left corner the spin boats sometimes pop up outta nowhere, something about the angle.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 08:00 PM

If you are in the left corner... then you are likely on PORT... Many of the Spin boats coming out of the blue at you are on STARBOARD....You need to stay clear.

When you are on port and leeward of a port spin boat... you need to sail your course and make lots of noise until you know you are seen..... and then sail your course...

If you chicken out and get intimidated... the spin boat will not know where the hell your steering will take you next and you will be lucky to miss each other and you would be in the wrong.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by brucat
Rules: P/S and W/L. Pretty simple.

Until boats change course, of course... whistle

Mike


So, if I'm on port tack, going to weather and a spin boat comes roaring down on top of me (also on port) what should I do?

If it's an ARC22, better pray . . .


That's some funny sh!t , right there.

Mark,
You CAN"T be holding your course and hitting people though(it sure was clearer when you could), you have to avoid collision or else you're at fault as well. Don't confuse the situation, by leaving out the important parts you dirty obfuscator.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Waiting for our USS rep to wade in...


Are you referring to me, or any of the judges that frequent here (Eric, Matt, etc.)?

Keeping course changes, lack of lookout, obstructions, etc. out of the discussion, it is very simple.

Think about any potential crossing as a 4-way intersection, because there are really only 4 basic ways boats will be heading when converging in open water, holding a steady course.

In crossing situations:

Starboard, closehauled boats have ROW over everyone.

Port, closehauled boats have ROW only on port running boats.

Starboard, running boats have ROW over all port boats.

Port, running boats have no ROW.

Reaching is the same as running for this discussion.

As mentioned, number of sails up, experience of the teams, color of your hair (or lack of it), has no bearing.

By the book, you should protest any time you are fouled.

Hope this helps, and you are not on a secret mission...

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 09:00 PM

I'm always on a mission. But, I'd never read the intersection analogy. Thanks.

Care to go into the gates? I have gotten lost and just bailed out. It's easy to figure what I want to do, at first, but at a crowded gate things can change quickly.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I'm always on a mission. But, I'd never read the intersection analogy. Thanks.

Care to go into the gates? I have gotten lost and just bailed out. It's easy to figure what I want to do, at first, but at a crowded gate things can change quickly.

The same rules apply (P/W, W/L), but now you have the concept of mark room overlaid on top of them.

In talking about this, I always refer to the right / left gate/side as if I was looking upwind. We'll keep it simple with only two boats on opposite tacks travelling at roughly the same speed.

In general:
  • If you are on starboard tack, coming in from the RIGHT side and want to round the RIGHT gate (jibing to do so), you have the right of way, period. You are allowed to make a tactical rounding.
  • If you are starboard tack, coming in from the RIGHT side and want to round the LEFT gate (without jibing), you have the right of way, but must give mark room to boats on port rounding the mark.
  • If you are on port tack, coming in from the LEFT side and want to round the LEFT gate (jibing to do so), you do not have the right of way, however, you may be entitled to mark room. You are NOT allowed to make a tactical rounding if someone on starboard tack is giving you mark room.
  • If you are port tack, coming in from the LEFT side and want to round the RIGHT gate (without jibing), you do not have the right of way, and must keep clear of boats on starboard, period.
Coming in on port and going right is the high-risk maneuver. Unfortunately, it's the one way we're "familiar" with, since with marks left to port, that's the way we usually round.

When I've introduced gates to some monohull classes, they will consistently favor the right mark - even if it's not the favored mark - because that's the way they're used to rounding the leeward mark. That is, until someone goes the other way and kicks their butt back to the weather mark. Then you start to see a more even split (which is the goal of the RC).
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 09:52 PM

The intersection thing just came to me as I was writing that up. The trick is to go out and practice or race enough that you can get through this without having to think about it. It's often harder for me to write it down than to do it on the water; which is a good thing, because with the closing speeds we have, you don't often have too much time to think about who has ROW.

Gates? The nice thing about racing the Wave, you go around the weather mark, stay on starboard, and head DEEP, directly at the left gate (looking upwind). The only boats that you need to worry about are the ones coming at you from your port side (either boats coming upwind on starboard, or boats going downwind on starboard, at a higher angle; although the latter normally sail around you as a speedbump). Anyone coming at you from your starboard side is on port...

EDIT 1: You can tell that Matt and I spend a lot of time on RC. The gates are ALWAYS discussed relative to course axis (looking upwind). smile

EDIT 2: You haven't seen a "crowded" gate until you've sailed a H16 NAs, in 25+ knots of air, with no less than 2-3 boats capsized and floating toward and through the gate (at all times) in a 60+ boat fleet. Good times!!!

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 09:57 PM

Thanks to all. It's good to start off the new year with a refresher.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I know it's been beaten to death but the situation still exists!

Yes, this topic was beaten to death last time at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208660&page=1. The answer hasn't changed.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:09 PM

A lot of folks still don't like it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?
Posted By: PTP

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:13 PM

If anyone sees a red N20 coming at them under spin, you better scream really loud. Chances are I don't know you are there. about cut someone in half last year at Tradewinds. scarey stuff
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:16 PM

"Chances are I don't know you are there" Is that legal, aren't you supposed to keep watch?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:27 PM

Todd... its about the timing... when you are the ROW boat... We expect you to ACT LIKE the ROW boat... you can't pussy around here... If you do and wiggle the stick to avoid the burdened boat... then the burdened boat has a hell of a time avoiding you.
Of course... When things go sideways... you avoid the collision....

I never doubt that self preservation will click in and you will turn to avoid a collision.

You guys are talking like their has been some fundamental change in the RRS about these basic ROW issues over the last 20 years.. NO...

You just don't hit the guy to prove your point and paint chips are not needed in the PC
Posted By: PTP

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:36 PM

It isn't like I'm not looking out, just that the spin does create quite a blind spot
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
A lot of folks still don't like it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?

Again, this was discussed previously (at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208660&page=3 ). I suggest you reread the existing thread.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:56 PM

No thanks. I'd rather reveue the rules in general. This is the beginning of my sailing year and I'm going through the book again. If all this is tedious for you I'm sorry but it helps me understand and keep it fresh.

Further, each year about his time I try to decide if I want to stay on the Blade another year or go to the Wave. I'm half way thinking of chartering a Wave this year.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 10:57 PM

"I suck at keeping a proper lookout"... is no defense...
you lose and you pay...

*Hey... you could choose to go back to starboard to get through the fleet.
You can choose to slow down and pick your way through the port tack fleet when you are on port and upwind...
Pedal to the Metal is a choice...

All of these rules discussions should have a take home point... that lets the sailors know what Should of or Could have been done in that situation.

What you are doing is trying to understand how to race sailboats by reading the rule book and protests decisions and this is a bad way to move forward.



Posted By: Isotope235

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:06 PM

Well, if you can't bother to read the responses posted the last time you asked the exact same questions, I trust you understand why I won't make the effort to answer them yet again.

Eric
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:09 PM

Of course. But there is quiet a lot in that thread that didn't include you and filtering is all but impossible.

Thanks again.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
A lot of folks still don't like it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?


In general, I would say that changing rules should be avoided. I don't think changing the rule would enhance safety, but actually make it worse as the plays people are used to making would be dramatically changed.

Also, if you sail lots of different boats, or types of events, it's nice to have consistency in the rules. Trying to keep track of changing rules would be unnecessarily difficult.

As an umpire, one of the most difficult things, IMHO, is to make the switch from Match Race to Team Race mode (each have modified rules), especially when events are close together.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:18 PM

thnx
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
You can tell that Matt and I spend a lot of time on RC. The gates are ALWAYS discussed relative to course axis (looking upwind).


This is a diagram that I use with the BIMBOs (mark boat operators) so that we're all on the same page when it comes to talking about the race course on the radio:
[Linked Image]

Attached picture Terminology.gif
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/19/11 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?

If you want to change a rule for an event, RRS 86 explains which rules can be changed and by whom. There are very few rules that can be changed by the Sailing Instructions - and none of the rules in Part 2 (the "right of way rules") can be changed by the sailing instructions.

If you're referring to actually changing a rule in the rule book, the process is long and somewhat arduous. Basically, an MNA (like US Sailing), an International Class Association (like the Laser Class), or an internal committee of the ISAF makes a submission to the ISAF Rules Committee. They will ponder it, perhaps propose some modifications, and then recommend to the ISAF Council whether to accept or reject it. The ISAF Council will vote on it, and if approved, the submission will be incorporated into the official Racing Rules of Sailing.

In this, the 3rd year of the 4 year rules cycle, most proposed changes have progressed to this last step. There were literally hundreds of submissions processed by the Rules Committee during the ISAF Conference last November in Puerto Rico. You can read the minutes here. If you want to get a feel for what's coming up in the next rule book. Copies of the submissions are found here.

Most of the rule changes recommended by the Rule Committee are not "game changers". There's some clarifications, and a re-organization of rules 19 and 20 to have them conform logically with rule 18.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 12:00 AM

Most places I work, the RC is a bunch of local volunteers. As in, they speak east/west/north/south; which is great, unless you travel around like I do, and can't keep track of what day it is, never mind where north is (even though I'm looking at a compass all day long)...

That, and sometimes, they don't understand "upwind..."

Anyway, I started going through that old thread. After page 2 or 3, it just got monotonous. P/S, W/L gets you through most situations; when in doubt, watch where you're going, who is coming at you, and avoid collisions.

I don't have words for people who can't see past their spinnakers. Yes I do, put it away or go home before you kill someone.

Mike
Posted By: goose151

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 12:43 AM

Is the Finish line a "gate"? for downwind finishes.

Do the same rules apply, is there a 3 boat zone, inside boat having right off way or is it only P/S that applies.
Can you push windward boats above the outer mark?

Confused
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 12:53 AM

Thanks again to all.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by goose151
Is the Finish line a "gate"? for downwind finishes.

Do the same rules apply, is there a 3 boat zone, inside boat having right off way or is it only P/S that applies.
Can you push windward boats above the outer mark?

Confused

For the most part, yes. There is a zone and Rule 18 does apply in the zone at either end.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:14 AM

What is the name of the rules book with the plastic boats? Is it still made?
Posted By: PTP

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
"I suck at keeping a proper lookout"... is no defense...
you lose and you pay...

I fully understand ROW rules when sailing (in terms of port/starboard/windward/leeward). Now, I don't always apply them correctly and will be the first to admit fault. My point is that I try very hard to keep a proper look out but when you are going close to 20 kn downwind and there is a mixed fleet, I appreciate people yelling at me even if I already know you are there. whats wrong with that?
BTW, what is with the statement regarding "slow down and pick your way through the fleet?"
Posted By: bacho

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:32 AM

Good thread, I was wondering many of the ROW questions myself.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:36 AM

I appreciate people yelling at me even if I already know you are there. whats wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing... BUT... they could be deaf mutes and you are still completely responsible ... Frequently.... By the time you do hear them screaming leeward... it's probably too late ... tis why the hails are out of the rules.

BTW, what is with the statement regarding "slow down and pick your way through the fleet?"

Oh... you COULD choose to fall off (slow down while you are on port..) and take some transoms (pick your way through the fleet of port tackers
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:36 AM

I appreciate a wave from the hailed boat to acknowledge they see or heard us.

On another tack, I would like to see ROW windward boat with the kite up, similar to iceboats.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
What is the name of the rules book with the plastic boats? Is it still made?
The boats come with Paul Elvstrom Explains the Yacht Racing Rules for 2009-2012 available from APS (here)

US Sailing has them by themselves, without the book - here.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by pgp
What is the name of the rules book with the plastic boats? Is it still made?
The boats come with Paul Elvstrom Explains the Yacht Racing Rules for 2009-2012 available from APS (here)

US Sailing has them by themselves, without the book - here.
[Linked Image]


I don't know what happened to mine but they are very useful.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 03:27 AM

I hear what you guys are saying. I think Eric already mentioned this, but rule makers must be extremely careful when changing ROW rules; otherwise the game is changed (and balance is lost).

Call it game theory, or some upper-level thinking, but a lot of thought goes into the rules, and many situations are run, to be sure that there isn't a rule that makes one particular strategy or tactic so powerful that racing turns into a one-way track.

We don't use the rules as weapons nearly as much as match racers or team racers. Even on monohulls, the rule situations in those disciplines come at you (and change) so fast, it's hard to keep up.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 03:30 AM

BTW, in a pinch, sugar packets (or credit cards) make excellent boats, and salt shakers make excellent marks.

These items are normally in copious supply at the local watering hole...

Mike
Posted By: srm

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by goose151
Is the Finish line a "gate"? for downwind finishes.

Do the same rules apply, is there a 3 boat zone, inside boat having right off way or is it only P/S that applies.
Can you push windward boats above the outer mark?

Confused


The rules that apply to a downwind finish line are identical to those at a leeward gate. The rules for mark room apply within the 3 length zones. Whether or not a leeward boat can push a windward boat above the finish mark depends on how the relationship between the boats was established when they reach the zone as well as how things are established before they reach the zone. Within the zone, the inside overlapped boat is entitled to room, so you have to let them in. However, before the zone is reached, the windward boat must keep clear of the leeward boat, so the leeward boat may luff the windward boat up within the limitations of Rule 17 (same tack, proper course). So if they attempt to overtake you to windward before either of you reach the zone, you can luff them. Once you hit the zone, if they're inside overlapped, you have to let them in. It's all the same stuff as at a leeward gate.

sm
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by pgp
Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?

If you want to change a rule for an event, RRS 86 explains which rules can be changed and by whom. There are very few rules that can be changed by the Sailing Instructions - and none of the rules in Part 2 (the "right of way rules") can be changed by the sailing instructions.

If you're referring to actually changing a rule in the rule book, the process is long and somewhat arduous. Basically, an MNA (like US Sailing), an International Class Association (like the Laser Class), or an internal committee of the ISAF makes a submission to the ISAF Rules Committee. They will ponder it, perhaps propose some modifications, and then recommend to the ISAF Council whether to accept or reject it. The ISAF Council will vote on it, and if approved, the submission will be incorporated into the official Racing Rules of Sailing.

In this, the 3rd year of the 4 year rules cycle, most proposed changes have progressed to this last step. There were literally hundreds of submissions processed by the Rules Committee during the ISAF Conference last November in Puerto Rico. You can read the minutes here. If you want to get a feel for what's coming up in the next rule book. Copies of the submissions are found here.

Most of the rule changes recommended by the Rule Committee are not "game changers". There's some clarifications, and a re-organization of rules 19 and 20 to have them conform logically with rule 18.


I was unable to follow the submission links but that's okay the process outline is clear. The links also indicate the work load, which is substantial for a volunteer group. For me, this is very helpful, thanks.
Posted By: Jake

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:23 PM

I also feel the need to point out that the standard rules of racing (for sailors) are only 7 pages long and printed with large typeface. There are nuances but they're not overly complicated that a discussion like this one here can provide full explanation. You can download them at the following link:

http://www.sailing.org/racingrules.php

I also like Dave Perry's rule breakdown book and reference it frequently:

available at amazon
Posted By: Timbo

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:33 PM

Thanks for the links Jake.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:41 PM

I keep a copy of the RRS2009-2012-[5950].PDF file on my phone, effectively always have a copy when I need it. Comes in handy.
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 01:57 PM

Clarification:

18.1 (c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it,

When is a boat presumed to have left a mark?

I don't suppose it will ever really matter, but it would be nice if one could make the distinction. It's a matter of rigor I suppose.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 03:07 PM

Pete, on your port tack upwind example, you're most likely to be seeing spin boats on stb. If the course is favored such that you're making good progress on port tack, the boats at A will drive off and continue on Stb rather than a gybe-set.

As they heat up, they'll be driving deeper, which may put them closer to your bows. As the closing speed will likely be big, you would have to make a judgement call as to your next move:

- Hold your course/speed and they'll drive past you (best if you're mid-way up the course and they're pointing at or in front of you with a reasonable distance (more than a few boatlengths)

- prepare to duck their sterns, especially if you haven't made eye-contact with anyone on that boat OR you see they're somehow hindered in their options (like they're being pushed around by another spin boat). Conversely you could just ease the main a tad and slow up a bit rather than bang the boat up (works best in light air)

If the wind is back to the right at A, you'll see a lot of boats going down on port tack (gybe-set or set-gybe). If you're up near the top mark in this scenario, it could get dicey since the boats rounding (or leaving "A") are going to be busy and not paying attention as much to other boats coming up.

in either case a simple

HEY W.T.F should get attention and they'll likely drive around you. If not, you should alter course to avoid a collision and yell "Protest" to the offending boat (pulling out your trusty red flag)

You could also whistle at them to get their attention.


I guess the message here is you're going upwind and most likely slower than the downwind spin boats. Once they see you, it would likely be easier for them to work around you than the other way around. And, if you don't make any unanticipated moves, all the better. If you're the ROW boat, most sailors know you don't have to change course unless there's no other option.

Best way to get comfortable with all this commotion? Get out and sail the course! You'd be suprised at how much you already know, and you only doubt your abilities because you aren't out there too much.

It gets a lot easier judging whether you're going to cross ahead or behind the more you get placed in that situation. Once you get that, you're more likely to know if another boat is going to be an issue or not...

Hope it helps! Try some of this out at Charlotte Harbor in Feb!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
A lot of folks still don't like it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the procedure to have a rule changed?


Drink 2 bottles of rum, spin counter clockwise 3 times, and click your heels together and say "no place like home" smile
Posted By: Jake

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 06:05 PM

Trying to avoid approaching the a-mark on the port layline is probably a wise move as well. It will probably cost you more time having to avoid the starboard boats and is much riskier than if you tack a little earlier to approach some distance below the mark.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 07:58 PM

Sure, Jake, but then you miss practicing the finer points of the 2-boat circle at "A" mark when coming in on Port against a parade of stb. boats.

Gosh, the way you suggest would make racing downright civil, and you can't have that in this renegade cat fleet... we are anti-conformists, right?
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Clarification:

18.1 (c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it,

When is a boat presumed to have left a mark?

I don't suppose it will ever really matter, but it would be nice if one could make the distinction. It's a matter of rigor I suppose.


Don't forget, the definition of mark room also includes the term "at the mark."

This is important, because basically, at any given time, you are either one of the following:
Approaching
At
Leaving

The key definition is At the mark, since anything before that is approaching, and after that is leaving.

Maybe Eric or Matt can find a reference, but I know that this has been discussed quite a bit at ISAF and US Sailing, and has been a topic at several seminars I've attended over the past year or two. I think there was an official call or interpretation issued recently, I just can't put a finger on it.

The discussion I am referring to sounded like common sense (you're at the mark as you are physically rounding it).

----------------

As for the port vs. starboard approach, there is an excellent quote that I read somewhere this year: "Nothing good ever happens at a layline." This is true strategically as well as tactically.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
..."Nothing good ever happens at a layline."...

After a quick google search, I found this little blurb, quoted on several YC sites. This is aimed at kids, but is completely relevant to anyone unsure of what to do while on the water:

Racing Rules for Kids and Small Boat Tacticians
By Hugh Elliot, US Sailing Certified Judge

As a small boat skipper or tactician, I am too busy with steering or trimming to get into arcane details (of the rules). I offer the following as a lighthearted collection of very basic rules. While it mixes right of way rules with tactical rules of thumb, I find it quite a good place to start. Experience and study will fill in the blanks.

1. Don't hit other boats. Collisions are slow and arguments are slower.
2. Keep out of the way of boats in front of you.
3. Port tack boats usually have to stay out of the way of everyone else.
4. Windward boats must stay away from leeward boats.
5. The inside boat gets to go round the mark first.
6. Don't hit marks. Doing circles is slow.
7. Don't hit the committee boat. First, it is a mark (see Rule 6) and second, it really makes them mad.
8. Nothing good ever happens on a layline.
9. The port tack layline is a very ugly place.
10. Control your own destiny: stay out of the Protest Room. Protest Committees are uncontrollable: with a 100% solid case, you have a 50% chance of being DSQ.

I think #10 is meant for a potential protestee. Said another way; when in doubt, spin.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Sure, Jake, but then you miss practicing the finer points of the 2-boat circle at "A" mark when coming in on Port against a parade of stb. boats.


Probably about time to catch up on your reading or buy an ARC22.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
The key definition is At the mark, since anything before that is approaching, and after that is leaving.

Maybe Eric or Matt can find a reference, but I know that this has been discussed quite a bit at ISAF and US Sailing, and has been a topic at several seminars I've attended over the past year or two. I think there was an official call or interpretation issued recently, I just can't put a finger on it.

This one is easy for me, since I was on the protest committee that decided it. It's US Sailing Appeal 105 here.

That one little protest hearing at the 2010 JY15 Regional Championships has ticked off so many boxes it's uncanny. Appealed to the Detroit River Yachting Association (upheld), appealed to US Sailing (upheld), included in the US Sailing Appeals Book (because it defined a significant concept) and it's a hair's breadth from being included in the ISAF Case Book (approved by the ISAF Rules Committee and only needs approval from the Council). It's been featured in Sailing World and a photo of the hearing was used to illustrate another one of Dick Rose's articles in Sailing World.
[Linked Image]

And yeah, it's a marvelous photo of the reason you rarely see me without a hat.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: ROW and protests - 12/20/11 10:14 PM

UM8 wanted to sail wider "to" the mark?
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 12:46 AM

Hey Matt, have you seen what is developing in the AC regarding your course description? It is very clever! They are proposing that the left, port, side be colored red and that the right, starboard, side be colored green. Then, instead of the commentator always having to add the phrase "looking upwind at the course" when they refer to the left or the right, they will just say the red side or the green side. Stan Honey has already assured them that he can overlay the red and green on the appropriate sides of the course along with all the other grahics he has been throwing on the screen to make the course easier for viewers to understand what is happening. I think this is also a great idea for crewed boats to speed and clarify onboard exchanges about conditions and plans.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
UM8 wanted to sail wider "to" the mark?
Yes. UM10, as leeward boat, has the right of way. UM8 is entitled to mark room - but not as much as she wants. Only enough to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark.

The funny thing was, UM8 left the mark with UM10 in her dirty air and beat UM10 in the race and the regatta. (The leeward mark they rounded was the last mark before finishing.) UM8 protested "as a matter of principle" and was convinced we had made an error in dismissing the protest - to the extent that she appealed the decision twice.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Hey Matt, have you seen what is developing in the AC regarding your course description? It is very clever! They are proposing that the left, port, side be colored red and that the right, starboard, side be colored green. Then, instead of the commentator always having to add the phrase "looking upwind at the course" when they refer to the left or the right, they will just say the red side or the green side. Stan Honey has already assured them that he can overlay the red and green on the appropriate sides of the course along with all the other grahics he has been throwing on the screen to make the course easier for viewers to understand what is happening. I think this is also a great idea for crewed boats to speed and clarify onboard exchanges about conditions and plans.
I have - and I think it's great as long as you're watching on TV. Not so good when you're trying to direct someone via radio.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 01:09 AM

It is the same problem as laying out that dotted line three boat lengths around each mark, right? Think of how much dye that would be and then what to do when you change the course!
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
The key definition is At the mark, since anything before that is approaching, and after that is leaving.

Maybe Eric or Matt can find a reference, but I know that this has been discussed quite a bit at ISAF and US Sailing, and has been a topic at several seminars I've attended over the past year or two. I think there was an official call or interpretation issued recently, I just can't put a finger on it.

This one is easy for me, since I was on the protest committee that decided it. It's US Sailing Appeal 105 here.

That one little protest hearing at the 2010 JY15 Regional Championships has ticked off so many boxes it's uncanny. Appealed to the Detroit River Yachting Association (upheld), appealed to US Sailing (upheld), included in the US Sailing Appeals Book (because it defined a significant concept) and it's a hair's breadth from being included in the ISAF Case Book (approved by the ISAF Rules Committee and only needs approval from the Council). It's been featured in Sailing World and a photo of the hearing was used to illustrate another one of Dick Rose's articles in Sailing World.
[Linked Image]

And yeah, it's a marvelous photo of the reason you rarely see me without a hat.


You're welcome for the softball, Matt. The hat would probably help to also hide that look on your face of, "Seriously, do you still not get it?"

While this case is probably the one that will be the best example to document; the discussion is obviously broader, or this wouldn't even see the light of day at ISAF. It's amazing to me that anyone needs a definition of "at the mark."

Just goes to show how some people prefer to twist the rules to gain any advantage (in this case, the earlier they could be considered "at the mark," the sooner they could have sailed a proper course, which I presume they felt was enter wide, exit close).


Originally Posted by mbounds
...The funny thing was, UM8 left the mark with UM10 in her dirty air and beat UM10 in the race and the regatta. (The leeward mark they rounded was the last mark before finishing.) UM8 protested "as a matter of principle" and was convinced we had made an error in dismissing the protest - to the extent that she appealed the decision twice.

What's funny about that? As Tom would say, UM8 didn't need to bother showing up when the sportsmanship award was given...

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 08:59 PM

The definition of at the mark is really important to setting and holding a mark trap in team racing. We have used event calls to better define this at a couple events I umpired over the summer.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 09:37 PM

Please don't misunderstand me, in the series of posts here, I'm not saying that it's not important (quite the contrary), just that it's so obvious that it blows my mind that people need PCs, Appeals and ISAF to define it for them.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: ROW and protests - 12/21/11 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Probably about time to catch up on your reading or buy an ARC22.



pbbbbbbshh. reading. That's silly stuff for non-sailors... Ramming Speed!
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/22/11 02:01 PM

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...;pid=3517851&st=50&#entry3517851

Stolen from SA:

"!8.2 c 2 looks to be in direct contradiction of the new mark-room wording though

I'm inside windward boat and I can be pushed to sail the corridor.
But if I sail wide come in on port late i can shut the door happy as larry on an inside starboard boat, so long as I'm sailing a proper course when the inevitable smash-up occurs ... oh but don't be that boat going wide and get tagged on the stern by the starboard boat, because then you are screwed.

Technically smart butt. About as clear on the water for the everyday racers as mud."

I'm lost.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: ROW and protests - 12/22/11 03:06 PM

I'm not sure what that post is referring to. At a windward mark you still need an overlap, which by definition doesn't apply between boats on opposite tacks when sailing closer than 90 degrees to the wind.

I would wait until any changes are approved and published before worrying about them.
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/22/11 03:52 PM

Pete,

Like Jeff said, don't worry about this yet. If for no other reason than these changes are still over a year away from taking effect.

Also, take everything that you read on SA with a grain of salt. To say that people rarely agree about anything over there would be the understatement of the year. At least here, people (mostly) agree on rules interpretations; and if not, someone usually comes in with a good official reference. And people here are much nicer to one another when discussing rules debates (and just about everything else)...

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: ROW and protests - 12/22/11 04:03 PM

My biggest question was what is meant by the expression, "sail the corridor". I'd never heard it before.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: ROW and protests - 12/23/11 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Pete,
Like Jeff said, don't worry about this yet. If for no other reason than these changes are still over a year away from taking effect.
Mike


Is this so? I thought that ISAF changes rules in the year when Olympic Games are taking place = 2012.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: ROW and protests - 12/23/11 09:44 PM

New rules take effect the year after the Olympics.

Current rule book is 2009-2012. Next one will be 2013-2016.
Posted By: fredsmith

Re: ROW and protests - 12/23/11 10:55 PM

Matt- Please clarify something for me.

Does the new rule take effect immediately after the Olympics

or Jan 1 2013

Fred
Posted By: brucat

Re: ROW and protests - 12/24/11 01:57 AM

The rules take effect on Jan 1 (2013, in this case).

The rule cycle is dictated by the dates the Olympic years. Meaning, the rule dates end on the year the Olympics are held (i.e., Olympics in 2012 = rules in effect from 2009-2012).

The reason behind this logic is, it gives sailors and officials time to get used to the new rules (and any changes in tactics that result), and gives time to make minor adjustments if issues arise (they usually do). The goal is not to have any rule changes during the year leading up to the Olympic finals.

Hope this helps.

Mike
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