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Mixed Multihull Evaluation

Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 04:57 PM

With the US Sailing presence at Tradewinds, any talk about any US racers participating in the Mixed Multihull Evaluation in Santander, Spain this upcoming March? Applications are due to ISAF by the 20th and require US Sailing's (MNA) endorsement.

ISAF Evaluation Invitation

Out-of-pocket expense to get there and accommodations (maybe) for a week.

Equipment applications are also due Friday.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 05:04 PM

The F16's results at Tradewinds should silence any skeptics about a mixed multihull event!

Lots of fast women drivers and crews out there in plenty of wind!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 05:26 PM

Jeez, I wasn't even thinking about that! Top two drivers were girls!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 05:26 PM

There is at least one US team vying for a slot.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 05:29 PM

Wow, and the world didn't come to an end? Maybe the Mayans are right, and we have another 11 months after all...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/17/12 05:39 PM

I read the invitation as for a single sailor.

They will be testing both the skiffs and mixed multihull.

I would think that Pease Glasser would be a superb choice from the USA and the International perspective
.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/18/12 02:27 AM

Pease says she doesn't want to go.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/18/12 02:59 AM

If the event was a couple weeks earlier, I would try to stop on my way back from Singapore. I really hope we can get some American sailors there, both for the sake of the skiff and the cat selection.

Would be really cool to try all the different boats!
Posted By: catman

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/19/12 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
The F's results at Trade winds should silence any skeptics about a mixed Multihull event!

Lots of fast women drivers and crews out there in plenty of wind!


I think you miss the point at least as far as I see it.

When woman's track is required to have a man anchor the 4x100 relay, or a woman do the same on the men's squad then forcing multihulls to do what they're doing might make sense. It should be open to whoever qualifies and hopefully that's done on a level playing field. Frankly if I were a woman I would be pissed that I couldn't crew with another woman.

As the father of two daughters I get a bit steamed when I hear they need a man to compete in this world.

What's being offered here is not the best of the best. It's social engineering and while it might be entertaining it's not the Olympics.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/19/12 05:19 PM

Uhhh, yes it is, Mike. Honest. You can look it up.

Plenty of opportunity for your girls out there. And, if you'll dig a little, you'll find that the mixed multihull in 2016 is the path to a women's multihull in 2020. Without it, there would still be women's sailing options, but not on a cat at the Olympics. Ever.
Posted By: macca

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 07:29 AM

Is there any evidence from ISAF that they have the slightest intention to grow the multihull from the current mixed discipline to 2 events in 2020?

I can't find it and to be honest, it seems to exist only in the heads of some smile
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 02:45 PM

I have mixed feelings about this issue (pun intended.) What are the choices? I think male only or female only would be wrong, unless you have two "separate but equal" events. As I understand the history, open classes were effectively the same as "male," so that's out. So we are left with "open with minimum of one female" or "mixed." The former would be the more sexist of the two.

Mike, how would you like it set up? I expect you would want something that gives your daughters a chance to compete without relegating them to second class, or maybe you think that women sailors are inherently inferior and so they need their own race? (Yes, I realize that this is a loaded question, feel free to ignore it.)

In any case, the real question isn't "what's most fair," but rather what is good for sailing as a sport, and biasing the Olympics to encourage woman involvement is, I think, a very good thing.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Is there any evidence from ISAF that they have the slightest intention to grow the multihull from the current mixed discipline to 2 events in 2020?


You know as well as any how it works. There is a renewed discussion every quad. At present, there are ISAF committee members and MNA representatives that are very much on-board with this longer-range plan. Coming up with that plan was one of the first things done when we lost the last event.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 03:24 PM

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"
Posted By: catman

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"


More like a thousand butt's kissed.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Uhhh, yes it is, Mike. Honest. You can look it up.

Plenty of opportunity for your girls out there. And, if you'll dig a little, you'll find that the mixed multihull in 2016 is the path to a women's multihull in 2020. Without it, there would still be women's sailing options, but not on a cat at the Olympics. Ever.


So does that mean there will be mixed and womens in 2020, but no open/mens?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 04:18 PM

I think there is a broad consensus that Olympic sailing is the pinnacle of dinghy/small boat sailing. Now you have to define the pinnacle of what... a pyramid, a column, or a handful of devoted athletes.?

Two multihull medals will flounder when the fact is that few woman raced multi's world wide at the international level.

So, the future of a Men's event is based entirely on generating enough demand from woman sailors for a Multihull medal.

Obviously, we don't have much of a pyramid of woman racing multihulls right now.. ... So... how you generate demand for an Olympic Mulithull and how many countries MNA's will step up and train woman is a critical issue. This could be a problem and worse... it is compounded when these same MNA's must step up and train woman for woman's skiff's at the same time.

The assumption is that when you offer the medals... they will come.

IMO.... men's multihull in 2020 is mostly aspirational..
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 04:33 PM

I wonder the about the number of woman raced multi's world wide at the international level vs the number of women who match race keel boats.
Was there a pyramid of women keel boat match racing?
Posted By: catman

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by daniel_t

or maybe you think that women sailors are inherently inferior and so they need their own race? (Yes, I realize that this is a loaded question, feel free to ignore it.)



I've written a few responses to this comment but thought better of hitting the submit key. (as you should have)

Sufficient to say your ignorance is deafening.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 05:14 PM

Quote

I wonder the about the number of woman raced multi's world wide at the international level vs the number of women who match race keel boats.
Was there a pyramid of women keel boat match racing?


Ding DING DING ... a killer observation!

NO

and both the discipline (match) AND the boat (Elliot) AND the type (Keelboat) were tossed for 2016(rejected by the majority of MNA's because they did not want to play)

The Olympic pinnacle rested on a handful of athletes (with killer political skills)... not even a thin reed of grass roots support.

The take home message should be.... There is a danger in putting the cart before the horse.






Posted By: Jake

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 05:34 PM

All I know is that a bunch of mixed teams showed up to sail last weekend. That was cool.
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 05:50 PM

Mike,

Seriously, if you were charged with bringing multi-hulls back into the Olympics, would you make the event:
1) Men only
2) Women only
3) Open
4) Mixed
or some other combination? And what would you expect the result to be?

Jake,

You are so right. I will hazard to guess that if the event had been open, more boats would have competed, but with fewer females. Would that have been better, or worse do you think?

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 06:35 PM

All of this is a thinly veiled attempt to get more hotties on the cat scene.Kudos to that. The Olympic part of it is just the bait. Everybody knows catsailors don't give a rip about the Olympics. wink whistle
Posted By: macca

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by macca
Is there any evidence from ISAF that they have the slightest intention to grow the multihull from the current mixed discipline to 2 events in 2020?


You know as well as any how it works. There is a renewed discussion every quad. At present, there are ISAF committee members and MNA representatives that are very much on-board with this longer-range plan. Coming up with that plan was one of the first things done when we lost the last event.



Unfortunately I do know how it works... and thats exactly why I question the logic in believing there is a plan or pathway to two events for 2020.

The backroom dealings that have taken place so far since the selection of mixed are of a level that even I struggle to believe and yet they continue, so I see very little chance that the right moves will be made for 2016 or 2020.

So, to that end I propose that we all go sailing and forget the whole debacle that is the Olympics. We all know its much better to go sailing than it is to fight a losing battle about it. smile
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 09:24 PM

+1
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
All of this is a thinly veiled attempt to get more hotties on the cat scene.Kudos to that. The Olympic part of it is just the bait. Everybody knows catsailors don't give a rip about the Olympics. wink whistle

Pure Genius if you ask me.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 10:44 PM

I heard that next week Nacra will announce another yet unknown cat which they will send to the evaluation event (in addition to the F16).
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 10:45 PM

Buddy of mine owns a local bar that does rather well. According to him, one key to success is in getting the female clientele in the door. The rest will take care of itself.

The analogy probably isn't water-tight, but pretty darn close...
Posted By: macca

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I heard that next week Nacra will announce another yet unknown cat which they will send to the evaluation event (in addition to the F16).


let me think... Epoxy built infusion hulls with f20 boards, wonder where that idea came from smile
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/20/12 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by xanderwess
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
All of this is a thinly veiled attempt to get more hotties on the cat scene.Kudos to that. The Olympic part of it is just the bait. Everybody knows catsailors don't give a rip about the Olympics. wink whistle

Pure Genius if you ask me.


I'll agree after the minimalist apparel requirements are listed.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/21/12 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
All of this is a thinly veiled attempt to get more hotties on the cat scene.Kudos to that. The Olympic part of it is just the bait. Everybody knows catsailors don't give a rip about the Olympics. wink whistle

Pure Genius if you ask me.


I'll agree after the minimalist apparel requirements are listed.


Good lord man....70% of them are under 18.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/21/12 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
All of this is a thinly veiled attempt to get more hotties on the cat scene.Kudos to that. The Olympic part of it is just the bait. Everybody knows catsailors don't give a rip about the Olympics. wink whistle

Pure Genius if you ask me.


I'll agree after the minimalist apparel requirements are listed.


Good lord man....70% of them are under 18.


And still a foot taller than you.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/22/12 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by macca

Unfortunately I do know how it works... and thats exactly why I question the logic in believing there is a plan or pathway to two events for 2020.

The backroom dealings that have taken place so far since the selection of mixed are of a level that even I struggle to believe and yet they continue, so I see very little chance that the right moves will be made for 2016 or 2020.

So, to that end I propose that we all go sailing and forget the whole debacle that is the Olympics. We all know its much better to go sailing than it is to fight a losing battle about it. smile


Bingo!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/22/12 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

And still a foot taller than you.


Dude, come on you're better than that. The low hanging fruit is for the pikers.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

And still a foot taller than you.


Dude, come on you're better than that. The low hanging fruit is for the pikers.


Yeah, but he took some cheapshot about young girls in the Olympics (Jake this ain't China)and he already had the percentages figured, so I went for the gnome thing.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

And still a foot taller than you.


Dude, come on you're better than that. The low hanging fruit is for the pikers.


Yeah, but he took some cheapshot about young girls in the Olympics (Jake this ain't China)and he already had the percentages figured, so I went for the gnome thing.


That was not a cheap shot at young girls in the Olympics (or China?). It was a shot at you dirty old men asking for skimpy clothing requirements for a group composed primarily of teenagers.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 04:49 AM

Visit your local high school next year during girls volleyball season. Or girls track. We had a track team disqualified because their shorts were so skimpy and sheer! The year before the parents overruled the girls choice for volleyball uniforms. Mind you the girls are selecting these uniforms. I don't know what they're thinking but it's easy on the eye!
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Visit your local high school next year during girls volleyball season. Or girls track. We had a track team disqualified because their shorts were so skimpy and sheer! The year before the parents overruled the girls choice for volleyball uniforms. Mind you the girls are selecting these uniforms. I don't know what they're thinking but it's easy on the eye!


You illustrate my point.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 02:04 PM


What? That teen girls don't always make good choices or that you're a monk? What am I supposed to do, gouge my eyes out?
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 03:53 PM

Quote
What am I supposed to do, gouge my eyes out?


At least don't act like a pervert in the open. With comments like that, I guess we won't be surprised when we see you on Dateline sitting at a table with Chris Hansen offering you a cookie.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 04:01 PM

You need to be telling this to the parents! You'd be the pervert for letting you mind go in that direction.

I didn't bring this up but I'm all done with the PC horsecrap.

If you don't want me to look at something don't display it in public.

Probably what I should do is call Child Protective services the next time I see an inappropriately dressed minor and accuse the parents of pandering.
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 07:27 PM

LIGHTEN UP, FRANCIS!
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 07:30 PM

+1

Still laughing my a$$ off! laugh
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 08:00 PM

Truth be told - I was going to comment about how nice it is to have a female component to our regattas...but every time I tried to phrase it, once considering the bulk of the age group, I sounded like another dirty old bastard.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Truth be told - I was going to comment about how nice it is to have a female component to our regattas...but every time I tried to phrase it, once considering the bulk of the age group, I sounded like another dirty old bastard.

grin
[Linked Image]
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 08:37 PM

I still look good in spandex -As good as any overstuffed chia pet, at least.

And yes, getting women on the boats should be key, if for no other reason than to get you old farts off the tiller and up front! Probably will reduce the number of crashes on the course....The rest will certainly take care of itself.

I don't care what you say, today's multihulls aren't so much about strengh as they are finesse. I could saw the main at T-winds all day block/block in 18 kts for 9 races and was still outgunned by several teams sailing smarter than me. Two even had female crews trimming. And arguably I'm in much worse shape than most of my female counterparts.

Heck, I'd almost venture that sailing an H16 is harder, and there are plenty of women on those boats...

So it ain't the boats keeping women away from the sport. And it isn't the venue. What's left? the dudes and their stupid-a$$ ego. You want ladies in the sport? Stop being a di&k
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I still look good in spandex -As good as any overstuffed chia pet, at least.

And yes, getting women on the boats should be key, if for no other reason than to get you old farts off the tiller and up front! Probably will reduce the number of crashes on the course....The rest will certainly take care of itself.

I don't care what you say, today's multihulls aren't so much about strengh as they are finesse. I could saw the main at T-winds all day block/block in 18 kts for 9 races and was still outgunned by several teams sailing smarter than me. Two even had female crews trimming. And arguably I'm in much worse shape than most of my female counterparts.

Heck, I'd almost venture that sailing an H16 is harder, and there are plenty of women on those boats...

So it ain't the boats keeping women away from the sport. And it isn't the venue. What's left? the dudes and their stupid-a$$ ego. You want ladies in the sport? Stop being a di&k


First and foremost stop blaming the men for keeping women out of the sport! I have yet to meet a male skipper or crew that has been anything but encouraging when it comes to female skippers, crews and teams! It's not always our fault Jay, someone really did a number on you.

My a$$ it's not about strength! Yes you have to be smart and move efficiently but you know raw power plays a major role in the heavy lifting that happens on the front of these spin enabled boats. When it gets down to brass tacks it will be boys on the front girls on the back in the mixed multi. So as Open Multi is code for "Mens" mixed multi will be code for "female skippers only".

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
My a$$ it's not about strength! Yes you have to be smart and move efficiently but you know raw power plays a major role in the heavy lifting that happens on the front of these spin enabled boats.


I'll still disagree somewhat on this point. It is physical?, yes, but "too hard" for a women? Doubt it. I'm not in very good shape, and aside from everyone using lines the diameter of fishing leader which tore up my hands I'd say that these 18s and 16s are no harder than your average 420, sailed by plenty of women.

The only real "heavy lifting" I had to deal with was when I didn't time things right - like the spin douse into a snuffer bag a bit too small, or trying to pull a board with pressure on it.


Originally Posted by David Ingram
When it gets down to brass tacks it will be boys on the front girls on the back in the mixed multi. So as Open Multi is code for "Mens" mixed multi will be code for "female skippers only".
I agree. I'd think you want the most movable ballast you can manage, which puts the boys up front since the driver's usually limited in their movement.


All this being said, what do you feel is holding women back from participating in this sport?

Someone posted earlier about having a "minimum one female" on board, which opens up the teams to female or male/female pairs. I think I like that concept slightly more than "mixed only" designation only because it allows slightly more flexibility in team selection.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 09:54 PM


"All this being said, what do you feel is holding women back from participating in this sport?"

The same thing holding men back. It's alternately hot/cold, hard work, expensive and requires a lot of travel.

Any one have any idea what sport women participate in most? I'll bet it's running and it's the same for men.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 10:13 PM

I would have guessed swimming or maybe triathlons, but running's a good one, too, as the equipment and venue requirements are almost non-existent
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by pgp

"All this being said, what do you feel is holding women back from participating in this sport?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ymhq6afE4M&feature=player_popout
www.motogp.com
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/23/12 11:14 PM

I have come to accept the fact that sailboat racing in any form, will never be a "mainstream" sport. We've all heard all the excuses, "It's too hard, It's too Cold, It's too expensive, It's too...everything." but that's fine with me, do we really want every nut job out there to jump off his Jet Ski and show up at a regatta?

I don't think I'd like to share the starting line with some of the idiots I've seen on the highway when driving to work! I don't want to be T-boned while some knuckle head is Texting his BFF!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/24/12 12:04 AM

laugh
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Mixed Multihull Evaluation - 01/25/12 06:03 AM

In the 1980's one of our top Hobie 18 team's, was John and Darcy Holloran. Darcy drove, and John was the crew. Darcy was about 110# and John, at least 200#. Didn't hurt that Darcy was also a past National Snipe skipper.
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