Poll for olympic boat pick

Just for fun.

Is this asking what we think they *will* pick, or what we think they *should* pick? My answer will be different depending...

I voted for what I thought they SHOULD pick, but Politics will decide what they actually pick.

What's your argument for why they should go with your choice?

You left off "Don't give a rat's butt"

I chose Viper but really prefer "any F16". It's more of a plebian approach! [CRINGE! HORRORS!]

I'm really not displaying any brand loyalty, but I like the idea of something like the Nacra 17. It is separate enough that it risks minimal impact on other classes, but close enough in parameter that it will probably bring more competitors to the 16 and/or 18 foot classes. It can have it's own complete rule set and not affect any of the existing successes but I can see that teams will probably sail between two classes for training. I would just be a little concerned that having a subset class with different rules within F16 or F18 would create a real mess.

Why?

Did you choose for no reason?
You have sailed one and liked it?
You hate all other boats?

Are all of the boats acceptable to you?

The Hobie 16, it will fit in with the other Olympic boats

I choose the Viper.

I agree with Jake that the Nacra 17 would be the best boat long term for all of the reasons he states.

But I think they are a day late and a dollar short. The boat is not tested and I find it hard to believe they could generate 50 bullet proof boats by the end of the summer...

The Viper is good enough sailing wise for a 4 year turn as an Olympic Boat, and AHPC probably has 100 boats or more around the world that could be acquired by a Mixed team relatively quickly to jump start the mixed multihull class and training. I think you can market the fantasy that the 16 footer would make a better Woman's boat then any other choice... so you would be feeding a woman's class with a Viper long term) (Viper because it can't be any heavier then a 470 to drag up the ramp) I don't think the ISAF will give a fig about the impact on an F16 class and it's impact.... They should but they won't.

ps
(If I were AHPC.... I would have a boat on the trailer with curved foils, tested and ready to rock and a dagger board replacement kit for any Viper in the field.)

If you think that the Olympic class should be interesting with the latest technology then you would be in favor of the Nacra 17. Cool boat, curved daggerboards, and lighter for those that thing the F18, my favorite, is too heavy.

As Jake mentions it is close enough to the other classes for cross training in larger fleets.

Also mentioned is the mess that would come of using a "one design" F16 or F18 while those boats are trying to compete in the Formula classes for training.

If it is the Nacra 17 it could be the boat people watch the most during the Olympics, if they are watching sailing, as it is fastest the newest and could be argued to be the most extreme.

Dan

I like the F16 concept, it offers very good performance for a small package, and is affordable. I'm opposed to prohibitively expensive equipment in the Olympics in general.

No F16's in the pool... they have three SMOD classes Spitfire, Viper and NacraF16 that are close or measure in. Are you choosing the cheapest one?

"No F16s". That's what's wrong! As long as this is just innweb banter and neither IOC or ISAF is going to pay any attention, I'd choose a generic F16, any manufacturer or home build for that matter.

Lacking that I'd choose the Viper because, of the entrants, they've done the most for F16.

I like the F16. That's where I've spent my money and I enjoy sailing it; though I have to admit it's a lot of boat for one old man.

Could hobie finally find a use for the 2 piece option for the tiger?

Ah.... excellent point!

I suspect Hobie will make their years and years of support for the 16 and Tiger a major point of their pitch in the political back and forth.

It's an important factor.

No problem for Nacra to manufacture and distribute 50+ Nacra 17's by the end of the summer. I don't expect there to be any issues given the proven expertise of the design team and the platform, foils, sails + mast manufacturers......Watch out for some exciting 'press' in the next week....

Nacra F16 is being raced in a competitive mixed cat fleet at the Thai Cat Regatta starting tomorrow against top Viper teams.
See http://www.thaicatregatta.org/entry_list.html for list of entries....first races tomorrow....

Wow.... now that is called just in time delivery... good luck with your launch!

Will ISAF look at the availability of used boats (Vipers Spitfires H16's and Tigers) as essential to boot strapping a class? The 49ner example probably does not fit because mixed multihull is "supposed" to be a transition to men's and womans disciplines. So... US Sailing decided that this boat selection was a 4 year solution... will ISAF make the same call?
It will be interesting if ISAF notes availability of used boats in the final decision.

But of all the H16s out there, how many would any olympic class sailor consider using in an ORC type event? .5 to 1% maybe. And then only after replacing half the parts/sails. 200-250 days of training year. How long do you think a H16 would be competetive?

You should have kept the results secret for a week or two

Yeah... that is often tossed at the Hobie 16...

I never campaigned a Hobie 16... But... I know of no data that says a Hobie 16 wears out faster then say a Hobie Tiger...

If you want to argue that the hobie pylon platform is flawed... i would just point out a new A cat designed by Melvin which looks just very much like a Hobie 16

Do Hobie's wear out faster then Tigers or Vipers? I don't know. The world of public opinion may not be all that reliable! just saying.

The history books show that most of the Olympic Tornado's suffered from oil canning and competitive boats got trashed after big events in breeze ... Eventually builders systematically got better until marstrom built a premium boat and made the Reg White's obsolete.

I would love to see some data on the competitive life of a hobie 16 and the other recreational boats.

Comparison to the Marstroms will happen at these trials and if boat build lifetime matters... Marstrom probably wins.

That reminds me something: AFAIK only Hobie has an active dealer in South America (Brazil). Does Nacra have a dealer here? Does any other manufacturer do? I'd really like to know - and perhaps could help.

Nacra have at least 2 dealers in South America (Chile and Argentina) to my knowledge...there may be others...

A cat design is by Mike Drummond, I don't think melvin had anything to do with it. The A cat frame is also one piece carbon fiber as the pylons would be also, so with the exception of looks they are nothing alike.Bad comparison, but it appears your just trying to get your post count up, so fire away with the mis-information.

One of the frequent critiques of the Hobie 16 is that the the hobie 16 pylon platform design looks dated! A carbon version of the same basic design in 2012 must be noted...

Face it Todd... Hobie can make a very strong case for the Hobie 16 with spin as instantly getting more countries into the Olympic game. Surf city even noted that Nigeria has a Nationals...

Don't be surprised if despite all of the negativity... they are a strong contender in the room.

Hobie 16.

Why would anyone want a boat that made pitch-pole a household word?

Don't we want to at least see a boat that can be driven to the limit and beyond instead of one that limits sailing ability?

The H16 is easily the most expensive boat on there.

And that kind of ignorant statement is why you won't find many Hobie racers on this forum.

Denial is ignorance.

Maybe someone should do a poll on whether the H16 is more prone to pitch-pole than any other boat on that list. Never mind waste of time. We know the answer.

Maybe your right. Nothing would be more entertaining then the whole fleet peter panning at the top mark. Then it would be a righting competition. Brilliant!

Commodore, Tampa Bay Catamaran Sailors

Let me guess... you don't have a lot of Hobie cat sailors in Tampa..

Obviously, you have not seen Hobie 16 sailors in big breeze.. Just because you can't sail one does not mean much.

Every alter cup qualifier that I have run in breeze... 18 knots on on up... I wonder if the big boats will actually beat a Hobie 16 across the line ... never an issue on corrected time. No swimming involved!

I chose the Nacra 17 because it is the only boat on the list that is fully optimized for what the OC wants. The Viper (the next most voted boat) is not optimized for a two person 120-140kg crew, it is designed to work well either 1-up or 2-up, but that isn't what they want. I expect the Nacra 17 would be more "athletically challenging to the elite sailors of the world" that happen to add up to that weight range.

There's only one cat worse than a h16 and that's a h16 with a spinnaker. Absolute pig.

Competive life for a h16 with a crew at Olympic level would be one regatta.

However if I was a betting man I would but a lazy 100 on it getting the nod for the games. Basically because ISAF only seem capable of making stupid decisions.

Can someone explain to me how you get a glued Hobie 16 into a 20 foot container? I've tried doesnt fit.

You seem to be talking about the wrong boat... it's the Hobie 16 Spi not the Hobie 16 - different story

Is the H16 prone to pitchpoling more or less with the spin on? #JustCurious

less

I pretty much agree with this article. http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/02/olympics-and-which-one-shouldnt-be.html
Nothing against H-16s ( I have one) it's just if we're supposed to be showing how badass multihulls are with the AC and it's world series on high tech multis being at the forefront, then the H-16 isn't the boat. If we are trying to project a more available boat with lot's of used craft on the market then maybe it is, but if you take ANY other Olympic sport, they are using the top equipment in that particular field. Rather it's bobsleds, javelins,skis,running shoes,curling brooms etc. they are using the most high tech in that sport for the Olympics. Why shouldn't we. You can twist it however you want but the H-16 is not high tech. On that note I'd bet it's what gets chosen. In the long run what difference does it make for non-Olympians? I just can't wait for it to be done so all the re-hashing of this in every new thread(Thanks Mark) will finally frickin' end.

Probably prone to pitchpoling less(due to lift of the spin) but flipping over more( due to difficulty bearing away quickly) due to asym. hulls. Just my guess.

Tawd... you noticed!!!

Why force the debate... This crowd is so damn cynical that god and motherhood would be crapped on.

Hopefully people understand that there are real issues that drive this process and NOT some KING picking his boys to make money off of the stupid sailors.

Why would you care about Mixed Multihull and the Olympics??.... because almost every top Cat racer in this country has pursued or won some kind of Olympic medal... EVEN sailors in HOBIE 16s... these sailors show up and win our local and national regattas. Some of them even grew up in the cat racing community....

The Olympics is a worthy enough goal so that sailors spend the time and energy to master the sport. Many of them continue to race cats. When you race against them and get spanked... you know exactly how much work you need and they raise the level of the game.

Better to try to play with the eagles then wallow with the ducks (or something like that) So... we need the eagles!!

Dumping all over the boats (or some of the boats) and diminishing the role the Olympic sailors play in game is poor sportsmanship.

You don't have to be a fan... but don't join the "it's all crap chorus" and diminish the role Olympic Sailing must play!

ps... that is a fair critique of the Hobie 16 as Olympic boat.!

Hey Mark, God -did- Crap on my Mother!

He "Blessed Her" with...ME!

I feel her pain

Mark,

I think you're over inflating the role Olympic sailing plays and if you feel I'm a bad sport for saying so , so be it. This bad sport will still be ahead of you on our race course, the one that matters.

Lets look at all the boats.

1) Tornado... does not fit the specs... NOT even close!
2) Hobie Tiger ... does not fit the specs. Too big a sail plan for a mixed crew weight of 300 lbs.

IMO, These should be not be invited to sail the trials.

The rest are all valid contenders.

1) H16
+++ cost
+++ available

This is the best cost and available boat on the international market. Hands down!

How many making any comment sail a H16 or have one with a spin. I suspect 0.

-- Reading the specs. The H16 is not an easy boat to tack by no means.

-- No self tacking jib. Without this and the added spin I don't see the H16 as a serious contender and not for the other comments mentioned.

2) SF16

-- Not a lot of data here.
-- No international presence other than the F16 class.
- cost

3) N16

-- No track record.
- cost

4) V16

++ Proven design.
++ Proven track record.

- cost
-- I hate to see a F16 be given to a single mfg.

5) N17

+ latest design concept

-- No track record
-- no specs on the rig.
While this looks great on paper there are no specs on how or why anyone would vote for this without knowing anythings from what has been posted so far. There needs to be more information.


The F16 has 3 entries and these are true mix multihull size boats. I would like to see it as an open design ( F16 ) and let each if desire make their boats and let this class develop much like the F18.

How does the tiger not fit the specs?

Keep in mind that ISAF didn't present specifications; just guidelines.

Sorry to let you all know that the decision have already been made: http://www.rio2016.com/en/the-games/sports/olympic/sailing


Lift of the spi.. Not a very large component of the forces generated by the spi I think. Relative relocation of center of effort from sailplan resulting in improved utilization of bouyancy is more likely the answer in my opinion.

But when it comes to selection of the H16, which is probably the likely outcome once the political game is ended, I think that would not be a step forward in development of multihull sailing.

Best choice at this time would be the N17. Little risk to other classes and a platform suitable for mixed sailing. Photogenic, high performance probably and one design..

I do hate the fact that campaign cost probably will explode with any selection except for the T.

John your statement is not correct. ISAF put out an RFP where #4 are specifications for a two person mixed gender multihull. There is no mention in the document that says "guidelines" at all.

I think everyone should read the document.
http://www.sailing.org/36974.php

The list so far are the boats submitted for consideration. Some may be eliminated or not invited to the trials.

Can anyone explain the difference in the voting for the 3 f16s on the list?
Doesn't seem like objective voting

Tom, take a look at 3(a). While you're correct that the word "specification" is in there, and I beg your pardon for my error, a boat doesn't have to meet the specifications to be submitted. Further, as has been demonstrated in past equipment evaluations, the boat that meets the most specs isn't guaranteed selection.

In my line of work, RFPs and specifications have a strict meaning; ISAF seems to use them more loosely.

It's true that the RFP presented specifications and didn't use the word 'guidelines', but it's also true that it defines an evaluation process in which proposals are scored against those criteria on a 4-point scale, rather than just being ruled in or out based simply on strict compliance.

Which 3 F16s are you looking at?? I see two - the Nacra F16 and the Viper. None of the others fit within the F16 box rule.

That said, I don't think the voting is very surprising. The Nacra F16 is almost certainly a fine boat, but just a completely unknown quantity to practically everyone here. The Viper OTOH is very well known, so if a particular F16 design were going to be chosen, it's natural that people here would favor something with a well-documented track record. Who knows, perhaps the trials will turn up something we don't know.

If the third boat you were referring to is the Spitfire, well it just doesn't have much of an international presence.

When I see the Hobie 16 + spi proposed as the next youth or olympic boat I always think back a few years when the youth squads participated in NAM-REM race weekend at my club.

There was big wind and even sunshine and a fleet of some 80 cats racing. Still the several of the H16's with spi remained on the beach. I asked a few youth sailors why they wouldn't sail them. Not a thorough poll but indicative none the less. They replied that hitched rides on real boats like the F18's. They would rather talk their way on orher makes then sail the hobies they were supplied with. One of them also said that a spi on the standard H16 simply doesn't work as it does on the new designs. In short they were not really interested in that combo and that in my eyes is the biggest drawback of the h16 +spi proposal. That and the fact the world wide H16 class really doesn't want a spi anywhere near them. What kind of message does that send into the world of sailing ?

In the end these youths can always choose between the 49-er and ... ... Whatever cat is chosen. Better choose one that they find attractive or we're out for good !

Wouter

Personally I chose the Viper in this poll

Not H16 for reasons stated earlier by myself and some others

Not Tiger as I really do feel that that is not as well suited to mixed crews as some others, neither is it a true modern design with the non-wing alu mast and the old style hullshape. Its international SMOD class is in my opinion almost non-existant, due to many changes made by hobie itself or by the owners under the F18 pressure, and hence not an argument in its favour. It is NOT a spi equivalent of the H16 in this respect.

Not Spitfire. Good design but also too limited in its presence world wide when compared to others. It simply offers no advantages over the other options.

Not nacra F16 pr Nacra 17 , good approach with the 17 but both designs are too much unknowns and I don't like taking risks with what may be our last shot at the big O. Also new boats need to go through a few years of development and refinement before they are finished, something ISAF is very scared off.

Viper (smod) yes ! Why, it has proven to be an excellent boat for 2-up crews in the given weight range with a modest international presence with a builder that can supply boats and has already done so several times the world over (think Alter Cup) . It is in fact more a 2-up design than a 1-up design contrary to its F16 origins. It will be even more so with the right sailcut. Also I' m convinced that it will be fitted with a carbon mast for the Olympics , going on what I've been told by some in the know. This makes it alot more attractive to olympic hopefuls I'm told and not something the H16, Tiger or Spitfire are considering at this time. I'm told several Vipers with carbon masts are already sailing in France almost since the launch of the class there a few years ago.

They only thing the Viper may be accused of lacking at this time is curved foils or a wingsail a la AC45. However i thinks latter is impractical for regular regatta sailing and the first is only a small issue in the grant scheme of things especially when the racing is SMOD anyway.

I feel AHPC, Darren and Carlijn are campaigning hard for the Viper and hence I also think this design stands a good chance of being selected politically.

Wouter

They only thing the Viper may be accused of lacking at this time is curved foils or a wingsail a la AC45. However i thinks latter is impractical for regular regatta sailing and the first is only a small issue in the grant scheme of things especially when the racing is SMOD anyway.
[/quote]

I also heard there was a possible carbon mast in the works and the big one that i havent seen mentioned is that I heard some sort of lifting foils were fitted/proposed for the trials.

Anyone else heard this??

Hmmm......

[size:8pt][/size]Carbon mast,

Simply put, the olympic campaigners I spoke (both in and out of the AHPC network) felt that the switch to carbon was one of the best things happening to the tornado design. It made the boat better and the racing more equal. Mark Schneider has been all over this in the past (although he is increasingly going mental on other issues lately)

This makes for an interesting connundrum. On one hand some want carbon out of the class for marketing purposes and on the other hand they want it in for improved designs and racing. This discussion was also raging at the start of the F16 class and I think they 've done the right thing. Allow both and let the buyer decide which option suits him best. I personally chose alu as I'm not nearly good enough to get the max out of that, let alone a carbon mast. If I ever do then and only then will I see sufficient justification to pull out my wallet. This approach has proven to be surprisingly easy to explain to interested persons.

However, I'm convinced that the carbon mast option is very serious for the big O. and rightly so.


Lifting foils,

I have no info on that, nor do I see this option as likely on what I do know. However I've been a little bit out of the loop lately. The F16 rules already allow inward canted boards that do provide a limited amount of lift. This was the result of the discussions I had with Martin Fisher way back in the beginning of the F16 class. A compromise was included in the f16 rule set after learning of the experiences gained by Hans Klok, the current chairman on the class. He had a modified boat with inward canted boards with a significant angle. Summarizing, benefits of the curved and inward canted boards were two fold. -1- less wetted surface area by lifting. -2- less pitching due to the additional damping supplied by the foils. I put the question to martin and settled on 6 degrees as max angle as that would allow for significant damping but not allow for full lifting of the boat (break clear of surface when mishandled).

I envisioned full lifting to be bad for the class , especially in the early stages. Full lifting easily encloses large induced drag components making the boat slow in addition to difficult to handle well (crashes). So it was decided to go halfway and thus allow for some of the benefits without incurring the risks.

In hintsight, maybe 10 degrees of max canting would have been better but althogether I'm very happy with the path taken although not all builders have made max use of this potential yet. One must also remember that lifting foils was still a largelt unknown thing back then. Lots of believes and claims but not much hard data on which to base such a important decision as fixing the class rules of a fledgling class.

With 6 degrees of max canting you get 16 kg of additional lift in addition to damping of pitching, compare this to a total of 240 kg that the leeward hull needs to support. With 10 degrees max canting you get 26 kg and about 1.5 times more stiff damping. The latter also more restant to the hulls from following the contours of larger waves (not chop) that one has to follow or risk the mainbeam hittinh the tops. As said earlier I looked for a good optimum, in discussions with martin and others, while allowing some of the proven benefits.

It was the right choice (compromise) for a new class and one that would also see lots of recreational sailors. Any Olympic selection was way beyond dreams back then. For a purpose build olympic cat I would make a different decision on what I now know. But maybe not for any true F16 type design. Basically I see a 130 kg platform with lifting foils as somewhat of a strange thing when compared to a 107 kg platform with slighly inward canted boards. Afterall, the first 23 kg of lifting will be taken up by the weight difference requiring the 130 kg design to be lifted by 40 kg's before it will pass a 107 kg platform with only a modest 16 kg a net lifting. Requiring the first to have canting somewhere around 18 degrees which is significant. And still the lighter boat will accellerate faster and both may also plane easily thus negating some of the foil lifting benefits.

Lifting foils on a 180 or up large cat with a big 2 male crew (350 kg combined with lots of sailpower) Yeah, I believe in that, but not nearly as much on light low drag design with medium crewweigh (240 kg combo) and much smaller sail loads because of limited righting moment like that on F16's. Note that sail loads are directly related to the amount of lifting that may be created by canted foils. T-foils are different in this respect and curved foils are sort of a mix between these two.

Anyway I doubt whether a special foil package is in the works for any boat except the nacra 17 as that would conflict directly with the established class rules, the grown fleets and ISAF recognized status that the other proposed boats have.

Anyway, I will stop my rant now.

Wouter

definitely heard it wasnt canted boards so i can only assume curved boards.

On another note, while yes curved foils are banned from the f16 class (if i read your post correctly) whats stopping the viper from allowing lifting foils in their one design class rules?

Nothing.

Indeed nothing.

As far as their own class is concerned they can do whatever they want, although they claim to be a ISAF recognized class and isn't there some regulation on how such class rules may be changed and in what timeframe ?

Over on http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/ mr Bundock posted the following reply on the forum.

I've edited out the bits not related to the mast specifically. Some parts of this forum thread are a bit disrespectful and I feel 2Bsailing and AHPC deserve lots of credit for what they do in relation to getting the cats back in and maintaining a multihull presence within ISAF.


Darren Bundock said...
Dear Mr/Mrs Conspiracy Theory,

It was actually me that ordered the first 2 piece mast and I did that about 3 weeks after the 2011 ISAF Mid Year meeting in St.Petersburg. Which I attended as an observer.

There was discussion that a 2 piece mast might be a requirement. To cover all bases I ordered it on the chance it might happen. If you were there then you too would have known.

...

Regards
Darren



Darren made this response in relation to previous posting by some anonymous poster stating the following :


... the big question is when did Carolijn order a 2 piece carbon mast from Heol composites? ...



It seems to me that the two-piece carbons masts are a serious rumour if not indeed true. Can Jeff confirm whether the same mast is also on the Nacra F16's ?

Regards,

Wouter

Just bliss , having a weekend for myself !

So excuse me if I go a little overboard.

Looked up Heol Spars and found this on their webpage.

http://www.heol-composites.com/index.php?page=realisation&ref=Carbon spars&id=2

Wing 150 is very close to being a (carbon) copy of the AHPC Alu superwing mast that is used on 95% of all alu-masted F16's. The superwing has 1.6 mm wallthickness and so their 2 mm comes closest. I would personally be a bit hesitant with the 1 mm carbon walls on a F16 but composite masts are not my speciality.

1.2 kg for the 2 mm thick Wing 150 makes for a roughtly 10.2 kg F16 mastsection of 8.5 meter length. At least 5 kg lighter than a lightest superwing that I have on my books..

Wouter

2012: HC16+spi is chosen
2013: 40 nations are competing ont the ISAF HC16 circuit (and that + kitesurf permit sailing to stay in the Olympic games that need to be worldwide, not only old countries)
2014: Multihull world ask (loudly just see this forum ;-) for a second Olympic cat , an open one (2 men)
2015: first proto of AC20 full carbon, wings, curved dagger, camera on board. After the AC45:AC72 media big circus, ISAF an CIO are very interested.
2015: ISAF decide there will be a second cat for the 2020 games.
2016: a korean couple is Olympic Champion on HC16 (just have a look to the last HC16 Championship in China.

Only a scenario, they may be better one.
The choice of HC16 is obvious to increase the practice our sport in the world.
For big regatta , as for the HC16 world, boats are provide by the factory and they change every race randomly allocated.

The meat on the cat is more important than the plastic.

Also just for fun, I organise a first poll in october on the french site: www.catamag.fr
A second is running (I find this one after launching mine), interesting to compare results and trend.

Any idea how the actual evaluation takes place? Any of it public or is it smoked filled rooms, strange cabals replete with incantations and blood rituals.

Don't forget the spankings.

Olympic Trials: "Come for the sailing, stay for the spankin's"
Sounds like a winner of a slogan to me.

I like the F16s. Doesn't matter to me who makes it, I like the Viper, the Falcon and the Nacra (I'm partial to Nacra's F16 because I like the hull shapes). I wish Hobie made an F16. I think the F16 fits perfect for ISAF needs (baring any Brazil swindling). The recent regatta at Thailand show how strong the F16 platform is.

I also want to get back into cat sailing (don't like the curved foil stuff going on... for no real reason, other than I think it's complicating the daggers). I owned and sailed-to-death a Hobie16. It was fun while it lasted. I don't ever want another H16 and am relieved that the F16 is growing in popularity. I got into windsurfing because I didn't want another H16 (and there was nothing better in the 80s-90s). The F16 is a hit because my wife doesn't sail and ALL my sailing friends got married and or disappeared.

Hoping for an F16 win!

The mast was one piece aluminum