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US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012

Posted By: brucat

US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 03:24 AM

Want to be heard? Here is your chance...

We are trying to get the word out to as many multihull sailors as possible. Hopefully, you will also receive this message through the normal Multihull Council channels (Area Reps, class chairs, etc.).

Please forward this to every multihull sailor in your network, class, fleet or club. We want literally every multihull sailor in the country to participate. Time is of the essence!!!

Here is your opportunity to weigh in on what many consider to be the most important “product” that US Sailing offers to multihull sailors, the US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Trophy (aka the Alter Cup). Here is a link to a short survey that will be open through Monday, the 20th of February: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/USMultihullChampionshipFormatandFuture.

As you may know, I became Chair of the US Sailing Multihull Council in October 2011. Since then, lots of great things are happening. One of them is a renewed focus on ensuring that the US Multihull Championship is a relevant event with a strong future. The Multihull Council is working to rebuild the event with the US Multihull Championship Committee, which itself is being reconstituted.

The leadership of US Sailing wants to transform the US Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.

To that end, Jack Gierhart, Executive Director of US Sailing, has directly asked me, “What do the multihull sailors want?” So, here is your opportunity to provide your opinions on the future of this championship.

Nothing is impossible, and nothing is off the table. However, the harsh reality is that the economic environment in which we currently operate is making it increasingly difficult to hold the event within the current format and funding structure. So, we either need to find additional revenue streams, change the format, or both.

The survey is composed of questions that are intended to get the creative juices flowing. We have been canvassing sailors all winter, and are really taking a long, hard look at all aspects of the event. We would like to hear from all multihull sailors around the country, even if you have never participated in this event.

As you know, there currently is no Alter Cup championship announced for 2012. A bid is in the works, and the intent of the survey is to come up with a long-term (5-year) plan, so we can return some stability to the planning of this event.

We are at an unprecedented moment in the history of the US Sailing Multihull Council. We are working hard and achieving a renwed cooperative relationship with the leadership at US Sailing. We are working on a number of things, including a revamp of our website, a new Youth multihull program, and of course, ensuring the success of the Alter Cup. We will be announcing a Spring meeting (teleconference) shortly to discuss further business for the 2012 season and beyond.

Remember, the survey is only open through Monday, the 20th of February. We want to hear from you! Your opinions will shape the future. Thank you for your time.

Mike Levesque
Chair, US Sailing Multihull Council
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:03 AM

I sent it to the Eastern Area F18 google group and posted it to our Facebook page. Hope you get some good feedback.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:19 AM

Thanks Jeff.

To all: I am totally OK with you posting links elsewhere (the more, the merrier), but please link to the following page so they can read the intro:

http://racing.ussailing.org/Multihull.htm

Anything you can do to emphasize the short window would be great, too.

Thanks.

Mike
Posted By: H17cat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:33 AM

Completed survey, and forwarded to Hobie Cat Division 4.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 06:03 AM

What do you think most people will want to do with the USSA multihull championships?
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 07:23 AM

Shared with Division 3 and SFF-18
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 01:53 PM

Well, I think we're in the position of starting over and will list some of things, in no particular order I'd like to see.

* MEGA PAR-TAY!
*
THE CHAMPIONSHIP should probably be sailed on formula or OD boats on a rotating basis. IMO, personal or chartered boats should be allowed. I think the land based rigging portion is as much a racing skill as on water performance. Otherwise we should just use Sunfish.
* Some sort of on site qualification- finish in top 50% (or whatever) or get flicked. Have a huge consolation race for us mere mortals on one day and clear the water for the top sailors and the championship round.

Mostly, we have a chance to come together as a group and get rid of some of the old animosities. Let's make the best of it.

I'd nominate the H-16 as the initial class for this new championship. It got us here, why not recognize our history?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 02:51 PM

Done, but man, that has got to be one of the longest surveys I have ever done!

Very thorough, thanks for taking the time to set that up!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 03:28 PM

I will make the counter argument.

Mutlithulls OD classes are different then dinghy OD classes. We have much more of a tradition of working and racing each other. For example, many sailors started on Hobie 14, moved to 16, an 18 a 20 and perhaps back to a 17. Laser sailors do not have much in common with 505 sailors.

We have one design or Formula NA's in the major classes. Picking a OD boat and running a smaller 20 boat championship for the US Sailing championship duplicates the national scene.

I would say the US multihull championship should be a bring your own boat Handicap regatta in one of three disciplines.
Singlehanded, Doublehanded Sloop and Double handed Spinnaker.
Rotate every year...

The Area Championships would match the format of the National championship (Singlehanded) and winning the regional championship gets you a huge discount on a charter boat for the nationals. (Builders would support the championship just as they do now... since they could drop the spin or jib as needed on most of the boats they buld)

The EU essentially does this now.. CARNAC is a huge event with large handicap starts and is essential a run what ya burng EU championship.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 03:36 PM

Um, I don't want to address any of your appoints in counter argument, as I think it premature. Clarification is needed?

Continuing the conversation:

* Imo, MEGA-PAR-TAY should be the underlying rationale. The Championship should coalesce around a social event. Those of us not able to seriously compete could still celebrate the PROCESS as well as the winner.

* To keep things simple, implementing as few changes as possible at any one time, why not let the HCA (as I've nominated them ) host the Alter Cup as part of their 16 Nationals? Let the one event serve both purposes.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:00 PM

Would you go to the Hobie 16 NA's/ US Sailing Championship and charter a Hobie 16 to compete if you race an A cat?

Double branding some regatta makes no sense to me.

RE a big party... How far have you ever driven and how much time would you allocate for a Big Party. I think the social is clearly secondary to championship competition. You have to get that right first.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:02 PM

Anything handicap is nothing more than a variation of the now defunct One of a Kind championship. With the mess handicap racing is it's hard to believe this type of format is even being considered. Can you imagine having the N20's and any F boats in the same grouping, they are spin boats after all so everyone should be in favor, right? A measurement based handicap system will not fix the issue.

You've also pointed out that it's difficult for someone to trade their class's championship for the US Multihull Championship. So what you'll probably end up with is a DBS Championship and does that really give us a champion?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Would you go to the Hobie 16 NA's/ US Sailing Championship and charter a Hobie 16 to compete if you race an A cat?

Double branding some regatta makes no sense to me.

RE a big party... How far have you ever driven and how much time would you allocate for a Big Party. I think the social is clearly secondary to championship competition. You have to get that right first.


I've driven as far as Spring Fever, maybe 600 miles? I agree with you, people have to decide if they want a dead serious championship event or a social gathering.

I favor a socially driven championship because that's the only way I can get in! laugh
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Anything handicap is nothing more than a variation of the now defunct One of a Kind championship. With the mess handicap racing is it's hard to believe this type of format is even being considered. Can you imagine having the N20's and any F boats in the same grouping, they are spin boats after all so everyone should be in favor, right? And no Mark a measurement based handicap system will not fix the issue.



+1

But I can imagine all manner of boats showing up to party, sail a couple of days and then spectate at the Championship.

We sorta had this format at Tradewinds, I thought it worked well.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:12 PM

You guys are certainly free to discuss this forever here, but the official way to have your voice heard is through the survey.

That survey carries even more bang than picking up the phone and calling me (which only one or two of you have done)...

Said another way, if you really care about the future of this event, start with completing the survey!!!

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:18 PM

Did it at 7AM this morning and I signed it. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:25 PM

Completed last evening.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:33 PM

Done.

If you go over the results and say "wow this is one jaded SOB" then thats mine.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 05:48 PM

Enligten us. Let us hear the wisdom of the "Manly Corpus."
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 06:35 PM

Quote
Anything handicap is nothing more than a variation of the now defunct One of a Kind championship. With the mess handicap racing is it's hard to believe this type of format is even being considered.


Mess??? only because we refuse to fix the US system.

how about some facts. ... The rest of the world races handicap with huge turnout numbers.... Hell... the Tai regatta was bigger then 90 percent of US multihull regattas. EU events like Carnac and Texel... where each handicap class is bigger then US NA's in most classes. Carnac is almost an interclass EU Multihull championship.


Quote

You've also pointed out that it's difficult for someone trade their class's championship for the US Multihull Championship. So what you'll probably end up with is a DBS Championship and does that really give us a champion?


Now you get to the fundamental issue.... you have no respect for those sailors... you would not waste your time competing against them for any championship. ... in fact... if the event were held on Hobie 16's with spins.... would you participate?

IMO, the only solution to a US Multihull championship is for the One design classes to fully support the idea. Make a hole in the schedule / replace a One design regatta with a modified qualifier and make it clear that the class would like it's top dogs to compete in the cat fight/US sailing Championships. The machinery should then work to solve the geographical issues with charter boats.

For the US multihull championships to succeed, they must be different then NAs and be founded on mutual respect.

Otherwise... they should just go away.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
IMO, the only solution to a US Multihull championship is for the One design classes to fully support the idea. Make a hole in the schedule / replace a One design regatta with a modified qualifier and make it clear that the class would like it's top dogs to compete in the cat fight/US sailing Championships. The machinery should then work to solve the geographical issues with charter boats.

For the US multihull championships to succeed, they must be different then NAs and be founded on mutual respect.


Anyone who spends any amount of time here knows that Mark and I usually disagree on most things. Typically, only Wouter can wind me up more. wink

However, this is one of the best points that anyone has made, ever.

We all know that literally every decision point involving format and qualification of the event has pros and cons, some of which people will lose their minds over. Realistically, there is no magical combination that will make everyone happy.

BUT, if Mark’s above concept is truly taken to heart by US Sailing and all of the classes and sailors, the rest would be easier for anyone to swallow.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 06:59 PM

It's unusual for you to miss a point so badly. The H16 is by no means a dead boat! It's one of the most aggressively raced platforms on the planet and for you to use it as an example to discredit my opinion reflects poorly on you.

To answer your question would I race a H16 at the Alter Cup? If I qualified for the championship you better believe it! I'd also do it on a Wave, Sunfish, Laser or whatever else could be sailed straight up... you know since you're asking

IMO a dead boat is any class that can no longer field a National Championship. If you believe the top talent is still hanging around in a class that can't support a national championship anymore you're simply living in denial.

You make a point that non US countries are all about sailing handicap... without spending any time there it's impossible for me to speak to that point. My impression of the Tai regatta was it was more about the equipment that was there and not about the sailors that competed, based on the posts on this forum. This point is true for every handicap regatta, it always seems to be about the equipment first and the actual accomplishments of the sailors gets lost. I'm not interested in an equipment show.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by brucat


Anyone who spends any amount of time here knows that Mark and I usually disagree on most things. Typically, only Wouter can wind me up more. wink

However, this is one of the best points that anyone has made, ever.

We all know that literally every decision point involving format and qualification of the event has pros and cons, some of which people will lose their minds over. Realistically, there is no magical combination that will make everyone happy.

BUT, if Mark’s above concept is truly taken to heart by US Sailing and all of the classes and sailors, the rest would be easier for anyone to swallow.

Mike


Mike, sounds like you and Mark have made up your minds.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
We sorta had this format at Tradewinds, I thought it worked well.


I view T-winds as sort of a family reunion - a dysfunctional, alcoholic, pathalogically lying, Tourette's syndrome kind of family reunion... on boats
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 07:48 PM

Quote
.... If I qualified for the championship you better believe it! ....


I should not have personalized the argument... my apology.

The point I wanted to make is that the SNOB factor comes into play when you try to fill out the fleet for the US sailing championships....Fact is... many of the top sailors (previous USSA championship racers) did not enter the championships when the Hobie 16 was used. I heard a lot of complaints to this effect.

When participation is skewed one way or the other... (no doubt by choice of many of the individual sailors (not you)) the championship is diminished.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 07:53 PM

Yes, I've made up my mind: Nothing is off the table, and that goes in all directions.

We need to hear all the opinions so we can decide on the best path forward.

Just like in Race Management, there are always three basic options when faced with a challenge: Do Nothing, Abandon the Race, or something in between.

My contribution to the future of the event is to get the opinions through this survey, which we will then use to recommend where to go next: No change, complete rework (I don't subscribe to eliminating the event), or something in between.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by pgp
We sorta had this format at Tradewinds, I thought it worked well.


I view T-winds as sort of a family reunion - a dysfunctional, alcoholic, pathalogically lying, Tourette's syndrome kind of family reunion... on boats


ROFLMAO! Luv it!
Posted By: HMurphey

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 08:02 PM

Gentlemen,

Let me just play "Devil's Advocate" here ...

You don't like "Handicap racing"??? ....

Well since the Hobie 18 is the best Racing/Beach Cat EVER designed, built and raced competitively ... ALL future "Multihull Championships" should be held using TheMightyHobie18's ... (IMHO)

... that doesn't work for you??? You happen to like a different manufacture's boat? I happen to like my boats ... and currently don't have the funds to purchase the newest/latest/shinest multihull that was just introduced ... soooooo .... you can sell what you have and purchase a boat like mine, and then we can race One-Design ....

(A good word to look up in the Webster's Dictionary at this point would be .... Ethnocentricity ...)



Mike L and Marc S are trying to make "some progress" in addressing the always changing and future parameters of our sport .... and I have and will support their efforts ...


Note: I have driven 6hrs (one-way) to a One-Design Regatta only to have no other TheMightyHobie18's show up for that event ... and was sent home ....

I'll race "handicap" ... it sure beats being sent home ... or ... staying at home and mowing the lawn for something to break the boredom ....

Harry
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 08:04 PM

For the record, I'm the one who injected the H16 in the discussion. It appears that was a mistake. My apologies.

Still, I've never been in upstate NY and would welcome an excuse to go up there.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 08:13 PM

Quote
You make a point that non US countries are all about sailing handicap... ,,,... it was more about the equipment that was there and not about the sailors that competed, based on the posts on this forum. This point is true for every handicap regatta, it always seems to be about the equipment first and the actual accomplishments of the sailors gets lost. I'm not interested in an equipment show.


I did not say ALL of the EU... I pointed to TWO huge regattas that have huge support year after year. This is not a false choice between one design and handicap. The rest of the world's sailors take a mature open minded view of handicap racing..... they don't believe it's an equipment show as you assert that all handicap regattas are. They are happy to compete at Carnac around the cans for the championship of a handicap class.

So my point is that a focused handicap regatta (eg. single handed championship) for the US Sailing championship is a reasonable option. It is just as valid as our previous system where the Alter cup is equivalent to the Olympics as the NA's are equivalent to the worlds.

How well each one serves the goal is a whole other matter.

PS.... of course I have opinions and I try to persuade you that I am right.... Last I looked... nobody made me king.. and the most I have to do with the survey is contribute what questions I thought should be asked.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

The point I wanted to make is that the SNOB factor comes into play when you try to fill out the fleet for the US sailing championships....Fact is... many of the top sailors (previous USSA championship racers) did not enter the championships when the Hobie 16 was used. I heard a lot of complaints to this effect.

When participation is skewed one way or the other... (no doubt by choice of many of the individual sailors (not you)) the championship is diminished.


Yes the Hobie 16 reaction was disappointing but I'm of the opinion that a true champion can make any platform work. Having the event on a H16 does NOT diminish the championship in any way IMO. I look at someone like Greg Thomas that wouldn't shy away from doing the Alter Cup on a H16 or a spin boat and as far as I'm concerned that is the mark of a true champion. You really can't let the "SNOB's" as you put it dictate the platform chosen. You simply have to say "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by HMurphey
Gentlemen,

Let me just play "Devil's Advocate" here ...

You don't like "Handicap racing"??? ....

Well since the Hobie 18 is the best Racing/Beach Cat EVER designed, built and raced competitively ... ALL future "Multihull Championships" should be held using TheMightyHobie18's ... (IMHO)

... that doesn't work for you??? You happen to like a different manufacture's boat? I happen to like my boats ... and currently don't have the funds to purchase the newest/latest/shinest multihull that was just introduced ... soooooo .... you can sell what you have and purchase a boat like mine, and then we can race One-Design ....

(A good word to look up in the Webster's Dictionary at this point would be .... Ethnocentricity ...)



Mike L and Marc S are trying to make "some progress" in addressing the always changing and future parameters of our sport .... and I have and will support their efforts ...


Note: I have driven 6hrs (one-way) to a One-Design Regatta only to have no other TheMightyHobie18's show up for that event ... and was sent home ....

I'll race "handicap" ... it sure beats being sent home ... or ... staying at home and mowing the lawn for something to break the boredom ....

Harry


Harry we aren't talking about a weekend regatta for weekend warriors, we are talking about an US Championship (which btw is open it international teams) So yes, it's held to a different standard.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:27 PM

Alright, let's get down to it. It's this or nothing isn't it? If that's the case go for it but please don't try to tell us it's "just as good or better" than the old format because it simply isn't.

In my opinion there is LOT and I mean LOT US Sailing could to to make the current format viable but they are too focused on other things.

Has US Sailing made any concessions on the $50 a head (skipper and crew) user fee they charge the championship? Is there any wiggle room with trying to interest sponsors outside the US Sailing sponsorship agreement? These two items alone could go a very long way in making the event more doable. Instead they suggest a BYOB DPN regatta, come on guys, really?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:29 PM

Quote
You really can't let the "SNOB's" as you put it dictate the platform chosen. You simply have to say "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".


Well said.


So... What is the purpose of the Multihull championships and how does it serve the entire racing community.

So... I don't understand why a championship that requires geographic diversity... eg one boat from each Area.... makes sense for the USA.

For instance, Say my buddy does the F18 NA's... with 70 boats and finish in the top 10. I could understand why he would like another bite at the apple of glory in a 20 boat regatta... But why would he be interested in a regatta with an F18 sailor from CA, FL and MI etc? ... What he really wants is a second regatta with the top 20 sailors from the F18 NA's and the geographic requirement distorts the competition.

I race A cats and I do not gives a damn about either of these regattas. I certainly would not declare the second regatta winner as the best multihull sailor of the year in the states.....

The real puzzle though is I don't understand why we need two championships to sort out the top F18 champion of 2012 but that is me.

In my view... we need a championship that gets all of the double handed spin sailors competing on boats they optimized for their weight and style. Then rotate the game the next year.... If Johnny and Charlie emerge from retirement and want to show you how it's done on the big T.... great fun... don't show up... well... as you would day "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
…I'm of the opinion that a true champion can make any platform work…
…You simply have to say "Dude if you're scared just say you're scared".

On these two points, you and I completely agree.

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Is there any wiggle room with trying to interest sponsors outside the US Sailing sponsorship agreement?

Yes, and despite what some people don’t want to let go of, additional sponsor logos will be allowed on the boats. However, even if we had enough money to put 20 new boats on the line, as you can see from the survey questions; the size of the event is also being challenged (is a 20-boat event relevant, etc.). I wasn't kidding when I said nothing is off the table.

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Instead they suggest a BYOB DPN regatta, come on guys really?

Be careful what you assume. That suggestion actually came from a group of cat sailors, not anyone on the US Sailing staff.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:40 PM

Mark, I'm not sure why I went down this road with you, slow day at work I guess. Anyway I've already identified the major issue, if those in position don't want to address the real problem that's fine, let's do the BYOB DPN regatta so US Sailing can get their $50 a head.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 09:48 PM

Oh Mike... you worry me sometimes. Liz Walker has been beating the BYOB DPN drum from the very first day I was involved in the US Multihull Championship! So US Sailing owns that one.

Are you saying that if Gill is included in the US Sailing sponsorship agreement Zhik can also be a sponsor outside of the agreement? This is where you need to focus, work the money Mike that's what makes events happen.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:07 PM

Ding, you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but the survey was primarily composed of questions based on conversations that I've been having with people since October. The first time I recall hearing the BYOB DPN concept came from someone other than Liz, and that person was a cat sailor.

Gill vs. Zhik. Really? If you had lined up Volvo to be the title sponsor, do you really think they'd be OK with Toyota as a co-sponsor?

Don't try to make this something it isn't. Additional sponors are welcome, but cannot conflict with the primary sponsors. This is not unique to US Sailing or this event.

EDIT: You have dealt with sponsors for other events, right? Then you know that some agreements allow for conflicts, others do not.

This one does not allow for the conflicts. But to say that additional sponsors are not allowed is completely inaccurate. We simply need to target companies in different markets.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:16 PM

Dave... what you see as the big problems are truly nuts and bolts.

In Area C... Nobody gives a damn about the US Sailing Championship.

So, Depending on your point of view... this is a problem... this is not a problem or that US Sailing championships are not an issue so long as we don't spend any money on it.... therefore, have at it boys.

My position is... I don't want to get a YC to run a regatta that nobody cares to participate in.... we tried that last year.... Nobody wants to play. I have tried all variations on this qualifier theme. So... don't have Area reps attempt to run qualifiers!. change the rules. 6 out of 10 regions blew this qualifier off last year.. Change the rules!

My second position is... unless you can persuade the Area C sailors that the current format of the US Sailing championships serves a larger agenda... don't spend any money on it on their behalf.

As always... somebody has to come back from one of these events and say why it was a can't miss... must do event. We don't get that from the racers that do compete in the championship.

When I have to respond to three emails this AM asking... what the hell is this survey all about.... YOU have a problem well beyond how to finance the gig.

No matter how fantastic a job you do in running the championship event... it's relevance is cratering... This was clear prior to your issues with the system.

RE a BYOB PN event....I have heard that rumor...IMO, without a consensus on a long term championship plan... I would argue that USSA should stop that in it's tracks.. Perhaps I could support that event because some areas did have qualifiers in 2011. If those 4 sailors want to compete... I would try to make good on the commitment.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
The first time I recall hearing the BYOB DPN concept came from someone other than Liz, and that person was a cat sailor.

Mike


I've been told to cool it, so I'm out. But, I just couldn't resist quoting that bit of your post before leaving, it speaks to me.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:27 PM

Have a Hobie Day!

You can quote me on that too, I guess. wink

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:37 PM

Quote
I've been told to cool it, so I'm out


Who pray tell is that?

Nevertheless... somebody better try to convince the sailors in 6 out of 10 regions that this regatta is worth supporting.

I make the same case that I always have that handicap racing is an important piece of the US racing scene... a USSA championship that supports that agenda works for me. However, should you find a way to get the One design crowd in my world fired up about any version of a US championship and I will support it.

Of course I know my opinion is well in the minority... call me a happy warrior... (not that other thing grin)
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 10:48 PM

So what's next? Who colates and interprets the responses? Will the results be made public?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:22 PM

I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I've been told to cool it, so I'm out


Who pray tell is that?

Nevertheless... somebody better try to convince the sailors in 6 out of 10 regions that this regatta is worth supporting.

I make the same case that I always have that handicap racing is an important piece of the US racing scene... a USSA championship that supports that agenda works for me. However, should you find a way to get the One design crowd in my world fired up about any version of a US championship and I will support it.

Of course I know my opinion is well in the minority... call me a happy warrior... (not that other thing grin)


Mark,
Have you ever considered that your negative, naysaying, doomsday is now repertoire is what makes the people around you not give a crap. Think about it.

Ding, Don't be a wuss and "cool it".
Speak your mind, many of us want to hear it and value your input , especially counter to USS.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike


Mike ,
where is a list of the names of the people(the committee) involved with this?
Thanks.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike


Good deal! Any thoughts about where and when?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike


Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Mike ,
where is a list of the names of the people(the committee) involved with this?
Thanks.


Well, there are two parts to this.

MHC list is here: http://racing.ussailing.org/Multihull/Multihull_Council.htm, we will likely ask for volunteers from that group to keep it nimble.

The Multihull Championship Committee is in the process of being reconstituted, which requires approval of the US Sailing Board, and will be announced soon.

Originally Posted by pgp

Good deal! Any thoughts about where and when?


It will be published on the US Sailing website, I will provide a link to it here. Planned timeline is to coincide with the announcement of a 2012 event, March 15, as has been posted here: http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult/USMHChampionship.htm


If anyone can't see that we are trying to be as open as possible about this, call me to discuss.

Hope this helps.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/16/12 11:58 PM

I have had a couple of informal discussions with some folks about this but I'm hearing that my opinion has been relayed a little out of context...so I want to say a couple of things. I've written a post in this thread about 8 times and there is so much involved, I'm having a hard time nailing down any significant point...so I'll stick to the boat type / choice.

Whatever we do, I believe we should compare whatever outcome is being discussed with one short statement about the event. I believe the event should strive to be the premier multihull championship from which the best multihull sailors within the US are determined.

I don't believe a handicap BYOB event is very elite. It's fun to think about and if the event is on the ropes of failure, it's worth a shot to see what happens. It would also be interesting to see sailors rotate on those different boats - assuming that the types of boats are spread out evenly and we could get something close to an even rotation among boats (very difficult). I would probably participate to get a taste for it but it's going to elevate "the boat" above "the sailors" and the championship focus will be tilted toward "the boat". Hell, the sailors already form lemon-opinions about the SMOD boats provided in the past (statistically, the boats have been proven to be exceptionally even).

I think that chartered used boats is a little better compromise but the condition and rigging of the boats is going to be very inconsistent unless an incredible amount of cash and effort is put into them...and most boat owners wouldn't dream of offering up their boat if someone is going to change lines around.

I much prefer the SMOD model we have now if it can be sustained. I got a lot of negative feedback the year Rick started talking about doing it on Hobie Waves (or Hobie 16s) although I was a fan of the idea...and still am. I would be there.

On the topic of SMOD boats, I think we've really been in a rut with the spin boats...but I also know that a lot of that is driven by what's hot and who would supply boats. I think making more wildly sweeping changes in the boat de jour would continue to make the event a little more prestigious and open to all the various "great sailors".
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 12:28 AM

I haven't had a chance to complete the survey, but will be doing it today. Just wanted to make a comment on the use of handicap for the event. Typically, I try to avoid handicap racing. I have sailed many keelboat events under both PHRF and IRC, and while some had great competition, others were just way too spread out to be fun.

Last week, I sailed the Thai Cat Regatta under Texel ratings. They used two starts, the first with Texel of 104 or less- so F18, F16, F20, A cat (w/spin), Tornado, and Spitfire. The second start was Hobie 16s, Dart 18s, 16 Squares, etc. I was actually very impressed by how close the racing was, especially between the F16s and F18s. I admit that tactically I was more concerned about the F18 subfleet, but we also made plays on other boats when appropriate. Unlike what Dave said, I felt that the regatta was less about equipment than the sailors. The winner was a three time olympian, second sails for Team Boskalis, third won a Hobie 16 youth worlds, etc.

I will be sailing in a Texel fleet again this weekend, this time on a F20carbon, and with a much more amateur fleet here in Singapore. It will give me a chance to evaluate the idea again. Is there a reason we don't use Texel in the US, seems to work very well worldwide?
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 12:29 AM

Has anyone else caught the irony that the alter cup qualifiers have always been a BYOB handicap format (at least for the past 10 years). And we have a huge vocal outcry against holding the championship under the same format...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 12:40 AM

Quote
Mark,
Have you ever considered that your negative, naysaying, doomsday is now repertoire is what makes the people around you not give a crap. Think about it.

Ding, Don't be a wuss and "cool it".
Speak your mind, many of us want to hear it and value your input , especially counter to USS.


Todd.... there is a huge difference between criticism and disagreement and the Happy talk that you seem to desire.

But... campaigning for a cow pie kicking contest that you expect Dave to start.... is pretty low!

Do you have ANY thing... to contribute to the question of the USSA championship?... or do you just want to play a bad nanny debate moderator!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 01:58 AM

Quote
I believe the event should strive to be the premier multihull championship from which the best multihull sailors within the US are determined.

I don't believe a handicap BYOB event is very elite.

Jake
So which is it... premier.... Best.... or elite?

By "Premier" I assume that would be an event that supercedes NA's of the major NA classes. (F18's, A class, Hobie 16s) in the public's eye

How do you do this?
How do you expect the NA champ Hobie 16 team at 290 lbs to compete against the first place NA F18 team at 340? The teams suit the boats they race and they practice on their boat. So... you can race one design on a Hobie 16 or F18... but the inherent unfairness will not make the event "premier".... just tilted to one team or the other.

What event EVER determines the BEST multihull sailor? If last years NA or Alter cup champion does not show up and race... is the current winner somehow diminished? .... NO! How do you determine... "Who is the best multihull sailor"? Answer: you take a vote!
You have a championship regatta and you award the trophy... that is it! the comparison game of " BEST" is a fools errand left to the internet or a bar.

What do you mean by "elite"? The current process picks 10 competitors from One design classes and petitions and one of these guys usually win the thing. So at one level... the selection committee did a good job of picking an elite (selected by committee) field... But... saying that the US championship is more elite then the A class or F18 or H16 class NA's. is not a good thing. (think Linsanity if you watch the Nicks)
The hobie 16's have an invite only regatta in Puerto Rico run by Figaroa. I am sure it's great fun and based on resume, it is a very elite regatta with tough competition... but you don't hear the H16 class hyping this regatta over the Hobie 16 NA's.

Using the principle you proscribe leads to the unsupportable mess we have now!

You would be better of just cutting out the BS... Basically you want an invite only regatta for "elite or selected" sailors. Cut out the rest of the flim flam in your guiding principle and sell that!

Dave summed up the irony of it all when he noted that the qualifiers are decided on handicap... Why all the griping about a championship on handicap?

Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by brucat
I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike


Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Mike ,
where is a list of the names of the people(the committee) involved with this?
Thanks.


Well, there are two parts to this.

MHC list is here: http://racing.ussailing.org/Multihull/Multihull_Council.htm, we will likely ask for volunteers from that group to keep it nimble.

The Multihull Championship Committee is in the process of being reconstituted, which requires approval of the US Sailing Board, and will be announced soon.

Originally Posted by pgp

Good deal! Any thoughts about where and when?


It will be published on the US Sailing website, I will provide a link to it here. Planned timeline is to coincide with the announcement of a 2012 event, March 15, as has been posted here: http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult/USMHChampionship.htm


If anyone can't see that we are trying to be as open as possible about this, call me to discuss.

Hope this helps.

Mike


Well done.
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:31 AM

I have tried to take the survey a couple of times... I just don't know enough to have formed an opinion for any of the questions... I'm too new to the multihull scene.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:33 AM

I told Dave that I thought he was wasting his time. He may have interpreted that to mean, "cool it." I'm not worried about me and Dave.

I think I'm wasting my time, too, but here's something to ponder anyway. The people that have made the event happen, from Gordie to Dave and everyone in between, including our beloved Darline, poured blood, sweat and tears into making it what it became. Each of them walked away frustrated, disillusioned, or fatigued. Each was told what Mike is now being told by US Sailing, and each eagerly took up the task. Mike is aware and he's taking his turn anyway, for which he has my gratitude. The punch line is this - neither Liz Walker nor Steve Wrigley ever lifted a finger for the multihull events, except to write emails. The event was always run by hosts, volunteers and manufacturers, all of whom were ill-treated for their efforts at one point or another. From beam bolts to battens, start lines to buffet lines... there has been a parade of competent, committed enthusiasts involved every year.

The events (both youth and adult) have been sustainable, quality regattas with healthy (if market weary) bank balances. Dave's dismissal boils down to the simple fact that he and his committee were focused on a quality event - they were the boots on the ground - where US Sailing was increasingly focused on the marketing of that event to sponsors to cover operating costs. Not the costs of the event mind you, nor did more than a pittance (less than 10%) of that sponsorship actually benefit the hosts. There was no way to reconcile the conflict between the purpose of the volunteers with the purpose of US Sailing.

Jake has an informed opinion as a past Championship Chair and competitor. Like Jake, my name has been tagged onto the list of people who agree with a number of ideas, including handicapped racing for the title. Like Jake, I think my opinion has been rewritten and distorted.

The Alter Cup was unique in that it was as one-design as you could get - rotated boats, no tuning allowed, absolutely and mathematically proven to be equal equipment. It took racing in a handicap event to qualify for a spot, due in part to the Ted Stevens Sports act. Some may see irony in that relationship, but the handicap racing was the path to the finals - I see this as a clear and logical progression. The trophy was named for Hobie Alter, now a Hall of Famer, for his contributions to one design sailing. I think that if the US Multihull Championship becomes a handicap event, a name change should be considered in respect for the original deed of gift and the large donation from Bill Jolley that has sustained it for so long.

It should be telling that during the last House of Delegates conference call, the new Championships Chair expressed her understanding that the multihull championship events have been very poor in the last few years. Fortunately, Jerry Montgomery (a member of ABYC) was on the call; he corrected her and explained that the event last June was fantastic - full participation, incredible manufacturer support, enthusiastic volunteers that traveled great distances to help run the event, and very happy sailors. History is written by those who are left... ours is being written by people who never once attended an event.

I wish the new cast of characters the best of luck. As I have expressed privately when asked "What do you want in an Alter Cup?"

We had it already.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:43 AM

<****. I trust Dave.
As far as my contribution, I submitted my survey. All of this BS is just you stirring the pot .It makes no difference to US Sailing what gets said on this forum, that's already been stated. I can't believe you have the gall to say I'm starting a cow pie kicking contest (WTF) when damn near every post you put up is nothing but trolling and arguing just for the sake of arguing. You are a hypocritical douche nozzle. It's a good thing you do as much as you do for the Maryland folks.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
I think that if the US Multihull Championship becomes a handicap event, a name change should be considered in respect for the original deed of gift and the large donation from Bill Jolley that has sustained it for so long.



I think it should be named after Darline. Especially if it's a handicap race .How fitting.
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:55 AM

Being new to multihull racing, I'm not sure how much my opinion matters, but I will say that I first heard of the Alter Cup when I read about them selecting F16s for the competition.

The articles I read about the cup lead me to believe that it was a regatta that showcased new boat designs by having skilled sailors race them one design style. I really think there is a place for such a race format and based on the comments in this thread, it sounds like I was mistaken in my assumption... I think that's a shame.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:11 AM

Yes, the irony Mike K mentioned has been noted. I'll discuss that after the survey is closed, so we don't skew any results.

Daniel, new perspective is good. The survey isn't a popularity contest, or intended for you to answer in a way you think other people want you to answer; it's intended to get your honest opinions on what would make you want to attend (or at least, respect the event).

John makes some good points, but don't hide behind smoke and mirrors. I have read the deed, there is absolutely no mention of one design. Same is true for H/J fund. No mention of one design.

While the event has developed through the years and has strong traditions, the original governing documents do not mention one design.

No one wants to have a lame event, there are just different opinions on what makes one great. Hence, the survey.

I will make an effort to have the deed published. One of my primary goals is improved tranparency.

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:40 AM

I'm not hiding Mike - I wish you well in the venture, but all you need to do is read what has been written about the event or talk to the guy who wrote the deed and landed Bill Jolley as our benefactor. The name Alter is not synonymous with handicap racing, my friend.

Carry on.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:41 AM

Jake you withdrew your post

I did want to add the following

Premier event is about how well manged the regatta is. Props to all those including your self for making the regatta a first class... indeed premier regatta year after year in the past.

The problem is.. This championship is supposed to be a benefit of US Sailing Membership. The fundamental problem is that 6 out of 10 areas Don't give a damn about the regatta using this format and and don't even hold the first round of the championship.... This benefit has minimal value to the rank and file. The championship has been failing at its core mission for years and years. The BS that John Williams speaks of is not the fundamental problem.. The BS is just the reason that this years spring event was cancelled and the scramble is on for a fall regatta save.

The question is... What should be done moving forward... beyond the fubar of the 2012 championship this fall

Jake and JW propose continuing with an "elite" selection process for a One design class of 10 charter boats with no boat customization because of rotation. Variations of this idea believe that the Area championships can be incorporated.

I propose BYOB in a handicap class "like 2 person spinnaker class" with 10 charters available for those who win their area championship.

I have an agenda. JW, Jake and Dave all have their favorite agendas.

Kudo's to Mike L who is trying to get a true read on what the rank and file want from their US Sailing Championship benefit and is not bringing an agenda.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:14 AM

I don't have an agenda, Mark, other than to push back against the notion that the event was a failure. You state flatly that the core mission was to benefit US Sailing, but I am certain that isn't what the volunteers believed was foremost. The mission was defined by the people that put the event on each year, and as Mike guesses, that mission evolved a bit over time as committee members came and went. But it seemed to me, for the time I was involved, to be grounded in the idea of producing a level playing field for the finals. You seem to think me, Jake and Dave are somehow in collusion - the only thing we all had in common was that we were chair of the adult event. We all three brought different ideas to the table, did our thing and moved on. We haven't even really discussed the current state of affairs, as we have each taken our turn and stepped aside. I don't remember you being there. I recall you vociferously declining the Area Rep position for several years.

Further, I didn't propose anything - I think what we had succeeded. But what we had isn't currently possible. Folks are looking for a way forward and that is fine. I'm sincerely glad for that and share in the hail for kudos.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:24 AM

John,

I know you mean well and have a long history with the event. What I am simply saying is that regardless of what people "think" the event is, the governing documents do not hold us to one-design, regardless of past events, or your personal history, trials and tribulations.

As for the name Alter equals one-design, well not exactly. I know that's what he built the sport on, but ask any non-cat sailor what Hobie means, and they say catamarans. Many people here have commented over the years that no matter what brand of boat they are on, they are occasionally referred to as Hobies.

Only Hobie Cat racers identify this with one-design racing. Most of the outside world doesn't even know that we have organized racing, of any kind.

And let's face it, it's not cat sailors that are running US Sailing, so we have to educate them.

Don't shoot the messenger, I am just trying to clear the air and stop the false perceptions, because they can only serve to make us fail.

Just as everyone here freaks out if US Sailing says something can't be done but can't point to a governing document, the same is true in reverse. We can't demand a one-design event if the deed doesn't require it.

There may be other ways to get there, but first we have to prove that the majority of cat sailors want that, and again, that is why we have the survey. Contrary to the egos here, it is entirely possible that there are a lot of cat sailors in the US that don't post here, and don't feel the same way you do.

I will support the results of the survey. I've said it before, that could mean: No change, complete rework, or something in between. Of course I have an idea of what I would like (and it would probably shock most of you who are desperately trying to pin me down), but it is not my job to push my own personal agenda.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
I told Dave that I thought he was wasting his time. He may have interpreted that to mean, "cool it."



Damnit John! I was going to tell them someone called my mom. Oh BTW, you need to stop calling my mom, that's just wrong.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Damnit John! I was going to tell them someone called my mom. Oh BTW, you need to stop calling my mom, dude that's just wrong.


She's a sweet lady, and she just misses you so much.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:10 AM

I hope we get a 2012 event. I hope the event continues in years to come. I filled out the survey, Shared the survey, and did my part.

I missed the qualifier last year due to the F-18 NAC's but already have the qualifier on my schedule this year.

If they change the event format I will still do the qualifier. I sail because I like to sail, and race because I like the competition and the people I race with.

Can we look at the betterment of the sport and drop our personal agendas?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:31 AM

Quote
ou state flatly that the core mission was to benefit US Sailing


MEMBERS!!! .... Its a MEMBERS BENEFIT...that they don't appreciate or want it. ..

We have had these debates 5 years ago.... the members did not want the benefit then...

I decline the Area Rep job because I don't have ANY support for delivering this member benefit. Mark S moved on... I had no choice. I did my best to run all flavors of this Area championship..... the dog won't eat it. I have a place holder event in place for this year which requires a minimal commitment on the YC part.

You make the case for the ultimate in one design regattas, an absolutely level playing field for the US Sailing championships... My area is hyper one design with A cats, Hobie 16, 17 and 18's having very active one design racing.... THEY DON'T WANT IT ... they don't buy the Ultimate one design championship regatta with level playing field as important. You needed another angle.... or better disciples who would have spread the message about the championship.

No matter how successful the championship regatta was for all those who put it on and competed.... the fact is...the membership support was declining. It's not personal or a reflection on the people who run the championship... it's just a reality.

You think the the event succeed.. The water part is only half the game and the event has been loosing support for years. I draw a different conclusion as to it's success.

So, maybe a change in format will get more support... I told you privately at least 5 years ago... without the one design classes getting fully behind the USSA championships that they would struggle getting rank and file support. The same story pertains now.. without the one design classes supporting a new model for the championship... they will crater again.

You don't have the agenda of supporting the current format and think it was successful ???
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 12:58 PM

yes, I withdrew my post. It wasn't very level headed...but the thought that you can never have a true championship because of who might or might not show up is ridiculous and it does a dis-service to anyone that has won a championship or anyone that strives to.

This event was designed to be the pinnacle of multihull sailing within the US. You win, and you get your name engraved on a perpetual trophy that has a long list of great champions engraved on that trophy. It does not take away from the achievement if Charlie Ogletree, Pete Melvin, or anybody else doesn't attend. You have won the event. You have beat all comers. Your name goes on that trophy along with the best of the best sailing multihulls in the US. Not all "championships" are equal or the same over time. Certainly winning a 2 boat Nacra 5.2 championship doesn't carry the same weight as winning a 50 boat F18 championship....but it doesn't change the fact that it is a "championship".

With regards to how this event is run, it's been tricky but we have had some very good and hotly contested events. The boats have been great. I want to keep having shots to compete myself. I'm not opposed to trying different things - but I do believe that this regatta needs to remain unique and special for it to be what it was intended to be. There also seems to be some conversation here about making the event more accessible to the casual sailor to make it more successful or more relevant. I think it's important to understand that it really has been quite accessible. We've run out of petitions for the event at times int he past and have had to resort to calling in "invites". Petitions have always come first. This does say something about the event - and it also says something about US sailing/multihull relationship.

I would rather hear from the competitive sailors in the areas that have very poor qualifier attendance as to why they don't care to make it to the "big show"?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 01:07 PM

Define competitive. It should be a very short list.

http://championships.ussailing.org/...istories/U_S__Multihull_Championship.htm

A quick search did not reveal a list of past champions. Does anyone have a link?
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

MEMBERS!!! .... Its a MEMBERS BENEFIT...that they don't appreciate or want it. ..

We have had these debates 5 years ago.... the members did not want the benefit then...


What is the benefit to 98% of the members other than to spectate? I resent being a puppet and encouraged to compete in a qualifier that is handicapped with a broken system. Even then, the system will grant petitions to those that did not win or even participate in a qualifier but are some of the best sailors racing catamarans and most likely squeeze out most of the recreational racers that do qualify from even getting near the podium.

Let it be elite and not be ashamed of it. Just don't try to coerce the 98% of us to participate in a dog and pony show of qualifiers and chastise us for not buying into it. Let it be class champions and petitions. Let it be an opportunity for manufacturers to promote their boat. What a great opportunity to get national exposure (especially for new models) and into the fleets through discounted Alter Cup boat sales.

I have followed the Alter Cup since only 2007 and have complete admiration for the volunteers, clubs, and manufacturers that have participated. A lot of uncompensated blood, sweat, and tears. If there is something wrong, we should listen to them because it is amazing how little is shared.

BTW, someone needs to interview Liz! What is she forming her opinion on? It could give us a perspective that we need to be aware of.
Posted By: GISCO

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 01:28 PM

Back in the dark ages when the multihull council was first formed at USYRU I started the multihull championshp with a two fold purpose in mind. First it was to give the sailors a connection to the governing body of sailing in the US (USYRU). The other was to show USYRU that multihulls were no different than the rest of the sailing community by patterning the event after the existing championships (10 teams/10 boats). The 10 teams from the ten areas gave sailors from regions where multihulls were not prevelent a chance to compete at the national level. It was not meant to the best sailor in the country, but the best sailor of the ten regions.

Since that time the event has gone far afield from the original concept with the expansion to 20 teams invitations and petitions. It's time to take a good hard look to see how to make it an event to strive for again. If not it's had a good long run.

Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 01:32 PM

I'm listening Gordon. You've been there and done it all.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I would rather hear from the competitive sailors in the areas that have very poor qualifier attendance as to why they don't care to make it to the "big show"?

OK, I'll bite on this one.

I've competed in at least a couple of qualifiers in Area E. I won't go out of my way to do it again as long as the qualifiers are raced handicap, since certain boats prevalent in this area have gift ratings (Inter 17/NACRA F17). With a wide range of DPNs, it's more often the boat/conditions that determine the winner, not the skill of the sailor. I'm not going to waste my precious regatta time tilting at windmills in a Hobie 16. My perception is that the whole event is skewed towards spinnaker boats, which may be the hot thing now, but do not represent the vast majority of catamaran racers in this country (and I've got the data to prove that).

While recently the finals may be considered a "success" (although having to resort to "invitees" to fill the available spots speaks otherwise), the regional qualifiers have been less than successful with few exceptions (most notably in the south east - coincidentally the core participants on this site).
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:05 PM

Do you see anything inherently unsound about holding the Alter Cup Championship on H16s that are either owned by the individual sailors or chartered specifically for the event?

Do you see anything inherently unsound about permitting sailors to tune their boats to their own liking?
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Jake
I would rather hear from the competitive sailors in the areas that have very poor qualifier attendance as to why they don't care to make it to the "big show"?

OK, I'll bite on this one.

I've competed in at least a couple of qualifiers in Area E. I won't go out of my way to do it again as long as the qualifiers are raced handicap, since certain boats prevalent in this area have gift ratings (Inter 17/NACRA F17). With a wide range of DPNs, it's more often the boat/conditions that determine the winner, not the skill of the sailor. I'm not going to waste my precious regatta time tilting at windmills in a Hobie 16. My perception is that the whole event is skewed towards spinnaker boats, which may be the hot thing now, but do not represent the vast majority of catamaran racers in this country (and I've got the data to prove that).

While recently the finals may be considered a "success" (although having to resort to "invitees" to fill the available spots speaks otherwise), the regional qualifiers have been less than successful with few exceptions (most notably in the south east - coincidentally the core participants on this site).


Matt, that's food for thought. Coupled with Gordy's response, perhaps I have it wrong and this event should just serve as a conduit between US Sailing and multihull sailors.

The spin boat bend really has less to do with any bias in the sailors but more to do with what boats manufacturers are willing to provide. In nearly all cases, manufacturers have provided newly marketed platforms ... and we're not seeing many of those that are not spin boats.

I'm also not completely sure I agree with the spin boat bias in the handicap system though I do agree that all rating systems struggle to account for varying conditions. I have been competitive against a spin boat fleet with my a-cat, though I know it's no Hobie 16.

Regardless, you can still petition to enter the event (attending your qualifier should carry some weight on the petition...but still, if they are running out, it's a shoe-in) - why has that avenue not been attractive?
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Regardless, you can still petition to enter the event (attending your qualifier should carry some weight on the petition...but still, if they are running out, it's a shoe-in) - why has that avenue not been attractive?

Spinnaker boats put a high emphasis on the crew. I sold my F18 mainly because I couldn't sail competitively with my usual crew (wife or daughter, and all my other friends had their own boats and their own crew issues). I guess it boiled down to I didn't want to take the time to recruit a crew, train with them (on a platform I didn't have access to), and then take the time off to actually attend the event - when I'm already taking off up to 4 - 5 weeks to attend other events either as a competitor or race officer.

If the championship was in singlehanded boats, I'd be all over it.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:47 PM

As a past competitor I like the current format. I'm not a fan of US Sailing and their non support of our championship. Seems to me that US Sailing would help us and support our championship in anyway possible. Not just ask us to pay US Sailing for the priviledge to run their championship.

The championship has become better every year that I've been there. I particularly liked the fact that we had younger sailors from a few areas at the last championship that could sail in the top of the fleet. It was great to see these younger teams kicking my butt.

I can go to a Portsmouth race any weekend I want. Why would I want to travel across the country to attend one. The Altercup gets the best teams because they can fly in and not have to haul their boat across the country. Having it in the Spring keeps it from competing with Nationals.

They should never own boats to have it on. The boats change every year and continue to improve. When I started competing I thought the boats had peaked 20 years ago on my Prindle 19. They have come a long way since then. The new curved foils are obviously the new thing that will certainly be finding it's way into our boats in the near future.

Good luck and get out there and find a manufacturer that will help provide boats. I have bought Altercup boats before to help support the cause after the event. I don't recall any event where the dealer got stuck with boats he couldn't sell.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:52 PM

Mike brings us back to the format discussion with some valid points. Should it be different than your local flavor of regatta? Having a BYOB event does restrict you to a regional type event too. I certainly would have never competed in Long Beach in '05 if I had to bring my own boat.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 03:54 PM

Okay, you want to know who the baddest multihull sailor is? You're going to have to prove your mettle on multiple platforms in multiple locations.

So, three 5 day SMOD regattas in one year. Florida on supplied F16 at T-winds, maybe Michigan in June on F18, and California in the fall on F20

Maybe a fourth regatta on H16 since everyone seems to hold that as the pinnacle of non-spin cats?

Whoever gets the best score on all regattas is champ. Make it a two year run-up cycle so there's time to secure the manufacturer participation and competitor elimination series
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:00 PM

That's undoable. How many of those regattas do you have the time and money to attend?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:05 PM

remember, these are the championship caliber competitors, not us hacks who might get a wild card entry.

A lot of these guys travel a boatload already in their respective classes, so I don't think this would take that much more effort on their part.

It would, however, take a great deal of extra work on the organizer's side, which is why it might be more feasable to make the championship a bi-annual event.

But think of the notariety to the winner- you would practially eliminate the "Yeah, but..." argument from some guy in a different boat size/type. They were the best on a bunch of different boats. You'd have a good supply of slightly used boats of different sizes.

Heck, maybe some of these championships could be run concurrently with the NAs?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:16 PM

smile
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 04:36 PM

Hmmmmm….. thank you Gordon for putting this all back into perspective.

If the goal is to have a “prestigious” US Sailing Multihull event, run it exactly like the qualifiers by using the US Sailing P/N. And, only include the area champions; no others. The idea is to not water down the event with petitions. Make the sailors yearning to become area champions and Alter Cup champions earn the spot. Have the buy-in from the established classes on a date that does not interfere with other national or North American championships. You could make it the second week in the same month each year and have a 3 day regatta utilizing a federal holiday to offset travel commitments.

Example. Area D South is run under the current p/n tables and won by an A cat (current format). That skipper goes to the big show with his boat. Area D North is run under the same tables and is won by a 2-up F16. That crew takes their boat and goes to the show. Etc, etc until all the area championships are held. In the event an area does not have a championship, the Area rep petitions his constituents for their slot. If none step up, then they are not represented in the show.

Compliance. At the area championships and the big race, all boats must be class legal for their assigned number. An A cat must produce the certificates (both boat and sail) for the event conforming to class rules. An F16 and F18 must do the same with no exceptions. Any boat requiring a measured certificate in the class rules must produce the forms or simply not race. All other class boat compliance is left up to the owners and competitors to enforce. All sailors must be US Sailing members at the area championship and Alter Cup.
This event format will be easy to administer using current scoring software. And as others have pointed out, economics simply cannot support 10 or more brand new boats and support personnel anymore.

Let’s talk costs. No more charter fees or damage deposits. Everyone is required to have ample insurance. Hopefully the registration fee is not astronomical. All of a sudden your regatta costs are affordable again. Logistics for the hosting club should be no more burdensome than a 3 day weekend regatta. Another cost saving measure is to have the hosting yacht club open it’s membership doors for sailor housing. It has worked in the past. Yes, you still have to get there but you still have to get there!

Trophies. Besides having the 3 medals and the winners name(s) engraved on the beautiful trophy, the winner(s) get to proudly wear either a collared polo or some type of clothing stating they are the 20XX US Sailing Multihull Champions.
Class champions: You have your nationals or North Americans each year. This is THE ALTER CUP!

This will work and everybody at the big race gets to race every race. The 2013 Alter Cup can happen next year! Realistically, 2012 is gone with all the schedules already in place.

Bob Curry, THE 1994 Alter Cup Champion
wink
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:28 PM

I have also proposed (SA) an option that is a One Design championship in one of three disciplines (single handed, double handed sloop, double handed spin) 10 charter boats are available from a builder. The championship is fed by One design Qualifiers. The qualifiers are one design racing held in the dominant one design class in the area (and that class should try to make a charter ($$$)available to a sailor who would like to compete in the qualifier. )

EG. the championship rotation is double handed sloop in 2013. The manufacturer is Nacra, They offer to provide 10 new F16's. The championship will be held on Nacra F16's without spin. Area C would hold a qualifier in double handed sloop. The Hobie 16 turnout is greater then the Hobie 18 turnout in Area C. Area C picks a Hobie 16 regatta for the qualifier (and they should attempt to make a Hobie 16 charter $$$ available to the Hobie 18 class and any other interested and qualified sailors). The winner of the Area Championships is able to race the championship.

FYI, a frequent complaint from sailors in Area C is about the rotation aspect of the championship.... They say... if they are taking a week to go racing... they want to race full time or it's not worth the time and money to compete.

The downside is that the cost for a full charter doubles. How much are you willing to pay....



Posted By: David Parker

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:31 PM

Sure, it's a long shot but maybe Nacra would make 10 Nacra 17s for the Alter Cup, just to prove to the OC that they could produce 50 if called up to serve the OOOOO.

I'm holding my breath until they do.....
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 05:58 PM

A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


Would you care to expand on that? All I know about USS championships is what I've observed at Alter Cup.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


$1000 isn't enough for them, it's not like it costs them anything! The relevance argument is bogus.

Screw what the sailors want! US Sailing is consistent I'll give them that.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:10 PM

Actually, it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with Rolex.

Attendance and interest in the events has been reportedly declining. You can dig around on the US Sailing website and look for results of other events to back that up.

For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.

The question of whether that can be done with a 10-boat platform is a large part of the equation.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:13 PM

So what format does USS want to see? Surely the have an idea of what is acceptable.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:23 PM

That would be cart before horse. They really want to meet the stated goal, and do not have a specific format requirement to get there. They are asking for input from the sailors, as they know that we are the ones who will attend and promote the event.

They want to see more youth, and more participation overall. My sense is that if this event were busting at the seams with hugely-attended qualifiers, and youth coming through the qualification process (without having to be hunted down and invited), we would have a better case that change isn't needed.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 06:38 PM

I'm still lost: what stated goal?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.


There you go, Pete - Mike posted it above. Keep in mind that this is new, and past events should not be judged against this goal. This is also a goal established by US Sailing, not by multihull sailors who have administered or participated in past events. Not trying to say anything other than providing context.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:27 PM

Quote

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.


Wow...a completely different frame for a strategic vision of the sport and this event.

Contrast that with Jake's
"I believe the event should strive to be the premier multihull championship from which the best multihull sailors within the US are determined. I don't believe a handicap BYOB event is very elite."

Or Mark's
I believe that the US Championship should be a member benefit and promote the whole sport by running a National handicap championship fed by qualifiers from USSA areas.

Relevant Regatta... not premier Regatta or membership benefit Regatta. Yikes!

new and upcoming sailors.... not elite sailors or Area XX sailors... Yikes!

Olympic sailors..... not quite Best Sailor or USSA members.... Yikes!

I am guessing that giving a petition slot at the championships to the youth mutlihull team is not good enough.

This is the second time that US Sailing is holding us up to our professed interest in Olympic Multihull racing. (They noticed our screaming about the Olympic fiasco)

The MHC had an ad hoc meeting with the ISAF co chair of the technical committee for the mixed multihull selection committee... Dina made it clear that US Sailing expected the multihull sailors and the OD classes to get behind and support the new discipline. The discussion that followed with the One Design representatives in attendance was .... "frank"

Yikes!
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:31 PM

Firstly: Let us award Mike, Shannon Bush, Liz Walker, and Jack Geirhart a ton of THANK YOUs for their tireless hours of effort and 'brain strain' in hopes of demonstrating a 'base - up' stlye of Leadership for the catamaran sailors across the Nation. In that regard, I not only say "Congratulations are in order" for them, but I wish to share with this audience something I learned during my journies to Hawai'i that serves as a fine analogy for this pivotal moment in our history.

"Lokahi is mind, body, and soul. To just strengthen your physical self is not enough. To strengthen yourself mentally is not enough. To strengthen yourself spiritually is not enough. To strengthen yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually is Lokahi." Buffalo Keaulana

This philosophy supports the "Ohana," the family. The Hawai'ian culture is based on self - reliance, love, and respect for others in their 'family' Ohana.

May we work together to write this new chapter for multihull sailing in our Free Nation, the United States of America.

Bert Rice, Multihull Championship Committee Chair
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:36 PM

Thanks John. This is a USS mandate? Bona fide, ratified and all that good stuff? If so, I like it.

The problem is the emotional investment of those, like yourself, who are committed to the old approach. You did a good job, thank you. Were you invited to participate in crafting a new approach?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:42 PM

Pete, my past involvement (or anyone else's) is not relevant, and certainly should not be viewed as a "problem" for those now taking on the task of moving forward.

Thanks for the thanks, but I haven't been chair in a long time - since me, there's been Jake, Kevin, Dave and now Bert.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:46 PM

Customarily you thank a board for its service before empaneling a new one.

You guys invested a lot of emotion into the task, that alone is worth recognition.

Failing to do that starts the new committee of on the wrong foot, imo.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:51 PM

I appreciate anyone in this role trying to make a difference and I support them wholly. I'll continue to make an effort to qualify for the event when it's reasonable with everything else I've got going on - regardless of the format (at first, anyway! ;-).

Is the new direction really in-line with the other US Sailing championships?

I'm a little unclear on the boat directive...manufacture supplied 10 boats (11 with spare) is very difficult to obtain...20 probably is sustainable...or is this in reference to sail what'cha brung?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Customarily you thank a board for its service before empaneling a new one.


Oh, I got thanked at the end of my tenure - there are pictures somewhere. Fortunately, I anticipated it and had a change of clothes handy. wink
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:05 PM

Jake, well before the nuts and bolts of charter boats get sorted out..

Do you even agree with the philosophy.... Do the Cat racers WANT that philosophy for the championship?


Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, well before the nuts and bolts of charter boats get sorted out..

Do you even agree with the philosophy.... Do the Cat racers WANT that philosophy for the championship?




That answer depends on what cat racers you ask. You're not going to get universal agreement. The guys that participate in the event will probably side with the type of format that it has been run within (elite event). The "general populous" (for lack of a better term) will probably like the idea of a more open/accessible event...which I think stems from a mis-conception about the event as it has been. It really was accessible. Invites haven't been part of the documented process of the event but became a necessary evil because not all slots were filled through their available openings and the petition bank would run dry. I don't think the accessibility of the event was communicated very well - it certainly wasn't during my tenure and I think that could have had a positive effect on the participant interest. A high level of participation begets higher interest...and that participation doesn't have to be "the elites".
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:33 PM

You want an elite event with higher levels of participation that don't have to be elite? Just trying to follow the logic.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:53 PM

I participated in the event in 2005 and came in last. I wasn't anything approaching elite then. I'm not sure what I am now (definitely not yet "elite" but I have a few moments every now and then!). The interest in participation is relatively low so before it can become elite, the general interest in participating in the event needs to increase. You can't just say it "will be elite". The event has to earn it. Elite will come on it's own as long as (in no particular order and without much consideration):

1) slots in the event have high demand
2) the event is executed fairly
3) competition is good
3) a good time is had by all
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:54 PM

I understand the old issues... I have looked for solutions for years... we could eventually sort through these issues and change the current system...

I am puzzled what to do about this mission statement. This is a radical new challenge. Truly a good use of the word "transform"

"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

We have juniors who have access to the Hobie 16. We have juniors who have access to F16's. And we don't have all that many of these guys.. So, we need to recruit from dinghy sailors from Yacht Clubs and dinghy sailors who graduate from college.

When you opt for "Olympic pathway"... you are now looking at double handed spin boat championships.

When you say "relevant" the USSA championship could be viewed as part of the US regatta series that leads to signature US event, the ISAF Grade I ... Miami International OCR regatta.

Perhaps you have a US championship in Miami the week before the Miami OCR's that draw in the mixed multihll international teams along with US Sailors... (juniors and all male teams racing in the one design format of the mixed mulithull class)

When you highlight "up and coming"... The petition slots, formerly used to promote "elite" will need to be used to recruit college sailors. Perhaps 1/2 of those petition slots are used to suck in college All Americans who give the cats a try.

Just speculating here.... (this is a mind bender)
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 08:58 PM

maybe elite is the wrong word - "premier" is probably more like it. It's not about making it an elitist affair. It's about keeping it as a high caliber championship.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 09:00 PM

"I am puzzled what to do about this mission statement. This is a radical new challenge. Truly a good use of the word "transform"

Validate it? Could just be exuberance or rhetoric.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 09:41 PM

"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

Mark, I think you're stuck on thinking that "new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors" = youth sailors. That's not necessarily true.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 09:48 PM

Quote
Mark, I think you're stuck on thinking that "new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors" = youth sailors. That's not necessarily true.


no doubt... after my initial choke... I realize the true target here are the 20 something racers with records of accomplishment. Perhaps some kind of championship structure could get some of them sucked over to the dark side.... irrespective of them making an Olympic go of it.

(I am not opposing this idea... I am just trying to figure out how you put this into play)
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 10:03 PM

The staff at US Sailing considers anyone over 30 to be older than what they want to target.

The irony, of course, is that we (and they) all fit into that category (over 30), yet are charged with administering the programs.

To that end, they also want more young people sitting on the various committees and councils.

Don't take any of that as a threat, it's just meant to be a clarification for what they want when looking for the younger perspective.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 10:56 PM

That's brilliant! laugh Abandon the demographic you have for one you hope to have.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
Firstly: Let us award Mike, Shannon Bush, Liz Walker, and Jack Geirhart a ton of THANK YOUs for their tireless hours of effort and 'brain strain' in hopes of demonstrating a 'base - up' stlye of Leadership for the catamaran sailors across the Nation. In that regard, I not only say "Congratulations are in order" for them, but I wish to share with this audience something I learned during my journies to Hawai'i that serves as a fine analogy for this pivotal moment in our history.

"Lokahi is mind, body, and soul. To just strengthen your physical self is not enough. To strengthen yourself mentally is not enough. To strengthen yourself spiritually is not enough. To strengthen yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually is Lokahi." Buffalo Keaulana

This philosophy supports the "Ohana," the family. The Hawai'ian culture is based on self - reliance, love, and respect for others in their 'family' Ohana.

May we work together to write this new chapter for multihull sailing in our Free Nation, the United States of America.

Bert Rice, Multihull Championship Committee Chair


If "working together" means taking everyone's opinion from the surveys and crafting a format by the percentage of desires for certain things , then good onya. If "working together" means reading the surveys and then doing what some non-multihull sailor involved with US Sailing wants to do, then why waste everyone's time with the lip service. The trend I see with all of these comments is that the problem is not with the sailors, or the volunteers on the multihull committee, but with US Sailing itself. So it seems the best way to achieve the mission statement would be to not use the words US Sailing in the promotion of the Alter Cup. I thank the Multihull committee for what they do, but detest US Sailing as a whole, and don't think I'm alone. I find it strange how so many people think this and the Olympics is so important to "developing" our sport when in reality 99% of us will never go to an Alter Cup or the Olympics.
There are a whole lot more effective and efficient ways to get people sailing cats.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/17/12 11:37 PM

It's as thought USS sees multis being the next big thing in the Olympics and wants to own it.

I don't like things being done in secret. On SA I offered to pledge $100 towards a challenge of USS. The offer still stands, a few people think the challenge has merit.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/18/12 12:17 AM

I think the US Multihull Championship can be a fantastic, highly regarded and well attended event that encourages participation in the sport. This should be the goal. The championship does not have to be the premier US multihull event to be a great success.

I think that a North American or National championship in your chosen class is always going to be a greater focus for most racers at the higher level.

I believe that the key element for a successful US Multihull Championship, as I have defined it above, is differentiation (in the marketing sense of the word).

Product Differentiation: “A source of competitive advantage that depends on producing some item that is regarded to have unique and valuable characteristics.”

The Alter Cup needs to be something that other events are not. Be radical!

My suggestion is to make the Alter Cup an open Portsmouth handicap event. This is a radical idea the likes of which has never been tried in the US. Picture the Texel equivalent of course racing. Why not throw a distance race in there as well. Differentiate the Alter Cup from every other catamaran championship in the US. Do not bill it as the championship that will decide who is the best catamaran sailor in the US. You will be laughed at. Bill it as the event no one is going to miss because there is nothing else like it.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/18/12 12:35 AM

If we are going to do an open handicap event can we at least use a handicap that works. No portsmouth use Texel.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/18/12 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
I think the US Multihull Championship can be a fantastic, highly regarded and well attended event that encourages participation in the sport. This should be the goal. The championship does not have to be the premier US multihull event to be a great success.
I think that a North American or National championship in your chosen class is always going to be a greater focus for most racers at the higher level.

I believe that the key element for a successful US Multihull Championship, as I have defined it above, is differentiation (in the marketing sense of the word).

Product Differentiation:
“A source of competitive advantage that depends on producing some item that is regarded to have unique and valuable characteristics.”

The Alter Cup needs to be something that other events are not. Be radical!

My suggestion is to make the Alter Cup an open Portsmouth handicap event. This is a radical idea the likes of which has never been tried in the US. Picture the Texel equivalent of course racing. Why not throw a distance race in there as well. Differentiate the Alter Cup from every other catamaran championship in the US. Do not bill it as the championship that will decide who is the best catamaran sailor in the US. You will be laughed at. Bill it as the event no one is going to miss because there is nothing else like it.


+1


Quote
If we are going to do an open handicap event can we at least use a handicap that works. No portsmouth use Texel.


This is my only problem with that idea. The ratings on some boats are ridiculous, in both directions. US Sailing not using the USS portsmouth system is a little far fetched though. So it would end up being the sailor that wants to win the most, gets the boat with the killer number, and competes. Still not exactly inclusive. Fix the numbers and it's a great idea.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/18/12 05:23 PM

Would the number change once a boat won?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Actually, it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with Rolex.

Attendance and interest in the events has been reportedly declining. You can dig around on the US Sailing website and look for results of other events to back that up.

For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.

The question of whether that can be done with a 10-boat platform is a large part of the equation.

Mike



OK...TIMEOUT!

This is what US Sailing wants the regatta to be??

"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

Well...that is the complete opposite of what we as cat sailors know of the ALTER CUP, which has always been about the (20 or so) BEST cat racers in this country, not any "New and Upcoming" sailors! It cannot be a big regatta, when only the top 20 teams are racing.

What they are describing we already have, it is called the Tradewinds Regatta, just look at this past event to see all the "...new and upcoming sailors who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

So...which one are we to pursue? The traditional Alter Cup, which, in my opinion, should only be raced by the class champions and area qualified entrants, or are we going to shift it to a Tradewinds type event?

Because you can't have it both ways, at the same time, and same event.

UNLESS...immediately after Tradewinds, you take the top finishers in each class (pick the top 2 teams per class, to make 10 teams total) and then put them all on what ever the "Hot New Boat from XXX" is at the time, supplied by XXX of course, and then let them slug it out as per the traditional Alter Cup event, ie. rotating boats, for a couple days, maybe 7-10 races total.

Presto-bingo, a big regatta attracting up and coming tallent, and a true Multihull Champion. One stop shopping.

As many have already mentioned, if most weekend sailors don't show for the Alter Cup Qualifier, it's because they have no intention of doing the Alter Cup even if they qualify, so it becomes a waste of time and money for them. I only sail the qualifier when it's convienient (days off wise) and close enough to home. I consider it a good 'local' regatta, but I don't go to qualify for the Alter Cup.

Now, if you want a huge turnout, from all fleets, with new tallent, for the Alter Cup...then hold it at Tradewinds, or Spring Fever, or some other popular, well attended, open to all classes type regatta, then take the top sailors from each class and let them have at it for a couple more days, on supplied boats.

Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:08 PM

When I read US Sailing's Adult Championship description it seems to contrast a little with Liz's request:

http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult.htm
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:16 PM

Whatever it turns out to be, I'll give it a shot if at all possible.

Is it true that under Texel, F16 uni has to give time to sloops?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:33 PM

List of Texel ratings: http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/documents/Zeilen/Texelrating/numdet%2024-9-2011.pdf
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:45 PM

Thanks Jeff. 102 w/spin, 1 or 2 up.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:52 PM

The crew column indicates 1 - Uni.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 01:53 PM

Dave, If you scroll down the list there is another entry for two up. The list is sorted by number of crew.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:05 PM

You guys are getting wayyy ahead of the regatta.

Back to the heart of the matter, and the survey:

Should the Alter Cup be a ladder event, where only the "qualifed" top 10-20 saiors race, or should it be an Open event, with a hundred cats of all types, all on one line, racing Portsmouth (or Texel, chose one) for the one, overall, Multihull Championship?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:08 PM

Beyond the survey, there has been no call for public comment. An error, imo.

But, I'll give it a shot and make up my mind from firsthand experience.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:11 PM

I indicated that I would prefer the ladder type event, with a few slots for petition. That said, I would probably sail a handicap event if it had a large, high quality fleet. Sailed a texel regatta over the weekend and it was still fun racing, although there were certainly times being the scratch boat both helped and hurt us.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:23 PM

Sadly guys it's going to be the whatever the employees of US Sailing want. The volunteers and sailors will have little say if any on what the championship will be. It's pretty clear from the feedback Mike has received from the employees (Jack and Liz) and posted here that it's going to play out that way. According to US Sailing (based on posts in this thread) most of us have aged out anyway.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:34 PM

Age. You think that could stand a court challenge? I suspect USS is a bit of an empty coat, not many members for the mandate they have and their lack of open representation would not stand a challenge.

Again, I pledge $100 towards a court challenge.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Sadly guys it's going to be the whatever the employees of US Sailing want. The volunteers and sailors will have little say if any on what the championship will be. It's pretty clear from the feedback Mike has received from the employees (Jack and Liz) and posted here that it's going to play out that way. According to US Sailing (based on posts in this thread) most of us have aged out anyway.


And what do they care how many boats show up anyway?

Sounds to me like they only want a big turnout to generate more money...for US Sailing, as was mentioned in an earlier post, only what, 10% of the Alter Cup fees went to the actual event, and the other 90% went to US Sailing...for...??

The rule books?
The the office rent?
The salaries of the full time office people, or all of the above?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:54 PM

Either challenege the status quo or accept it.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 02:55 PM

I thought that was the whole point of the survey...we just have to wait for the results, see what the Majority want to do.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:00 PM

Where was there mention of a majority? Or mention of any specific action?

I think this is what's happening: a new group of volunteers is very zealously trying to do something good for multihull sailing; at the same time the old guard is throwing out this red herring survey as evidence they are trying to represent their constituency.

Does anyone have an actual copy of the survery? I did not save one.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:19 PM

Dave... get real ! ...

US sailing knows they don't have boats, clubs, people to run an event... of ANY size... (the Miami YC's and volunteers from around the country come together to put on the OCR's.) The rank and file have to support the final decision or nothing is going to happen. There will be no boots on the ground. So, they will do what ever the consensus is from the cat sailing world... Problem is... there is no consensus.
(I know it's painful for what ever group steps up to work with USSA and make it happen but that is really a secondary issue)

The elite + qualifier regatta championship support has fallen apart....
Now what?

Eliminate the qualifiers and make it petitions or selection?
Reformat the championship?

The mixed multihull class is a new variable... perhaps the energy behind the Olympic push will make the USSA championship relevant.

I have no idea what the best way forward is right now. BUT... the problem is us... we have to figure out what we want and then make it happen. (the amount of USSA BS is just sand in the beach wheels.)


Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
...

I have no idea what the best way forward is right now. BUT... the problem is us... we have to figure out what we want and then make it happen. (the amount of USSA BS is just sand in the beach wheels.)




It's really not just sand in the beach wheels. There has been quite a bit of difference between the resources provided by US Sailing toward the Adult Multihull Championship and other Championships.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:41 PM

And those championships are cratering as well (cancelled) and under review in this whole process.

Seems to me... you need the Volunteers to put on the event... the Sailors to spend the money to race the event... You need the paid staff to maintain the process year over year.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
And those championships are cratering as well (cancelled) and under review in this whole process.



I must have missed that in the conversation - is this the case?
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 03:44 PM

"under review in this whole process."

They might try open elections.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 04:01 PM

I found this in the 2011 report. Hardly a huge organization with unlimited funding capability.

40,000+ members. Membership revenue of $1.67 mil.

Attached picture members.JPG
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 04:01 PM

We were told at the MHC council meeting by an MHC member that they were cancelling one of the major championships for lack of interest as well. I have not confirmed the fact.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 04:14 PM

The general economy is in the toilet, and has been for what, 4 years now? That probably has more to do with the 'lack of interest' in sailboat racing than the way the Championships are run.

It might be 'lack of money' more than lack of interest.

The two cheapest classes are still the most popular, numbers wise, the Hobie 16 for cats and the Laser for mono-dinghys. But I'll bet even they are feeling the pinch this economy has put on everything deemed 'non-essential'.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


So they want to put no money in. They want to draw money out of our event. And they want to tell us how to run our event. Makes perfect sense to me.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 05:08 PM

We had the US Sailing Champion on Champions on our lake here. They used borrowed Flying Scots and bought new sails for all the boats. They invited all the class champions and most didn't come. They have trouble finding a venue to host them. They invite "big names" in sailing and they have a hard time getting them to come. Paul Cayard came to our event and folks were quite excited to have a big name come to that event.

So the way they do the event is about 10 steps below how our multihull event is run. The level of competition is the best of the best at the multihull event. Often all the big names are there.

We run an event that they can only wish to run but they want us to change?

Posted By: John Williams

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 05:09 PM

Yes.

edit; Mike, while your point may valid, the fact is we have a clean slate. Better to abandon talk about what was and focus on what can be. I'm surprised there is even debate about the success of the previous finals, but the fact we can't even agree on the term, "success" is an interesting barometer. I'm sure there is more news coming as the current effort comes more into focus.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 05:42 PM


Far more interesting is where the nacra inter 17R is rated. 104 under texel compared to 102 for F16's and 100 for F18's. Quite a bit faster then under us D-PN
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


So they want to put no money in. They want to draw money out of our event. And they want to tell us how to run our event. Makes perfect sense to me.


USS owns the rights to Alter Cup. If that's correct it is their event. Plus, they have $1.67 mil in current receipts to budget for how many championships less other expenses which are paid from dues. As a gross amount that's $41/person give or take.

I'm beginning to lean in favor of USS, I just wish it was easier to dig up information.

Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Yes.

edit; Mike, while your point may valid, the fact is we have a clean slate. Better to abandon talk about what was and focus on what can be. I'm surprised there is even debate about the success of the previous finals, but the fact we can't even agree on the term, "success" is an interesting barometer. I'm sure there is more news coming as the current effort comes more into focus.


Agreed in full!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave... get real ! ...

US sailing knows they don't have boats, clubs, people to run an event... of ANY size... (the Miami YC's and volunteers from around the country come together to put on the OCR's.) The rank and file have to support the final decision or nothing is going to happen. There will be no boots on the ground. So, they will do what ever the consensus is from the cat sailing world... Problem is... there is no consensus.
(I know it's painful for what ever group steps up to work with USSA and make it happen but that is really a secondary issue)

The elite + qualifier regatta championship support has fallen apart....
Now what?

Eliminate the qualifiers and make it petitions or selection?
Reformat the championship?

The mixed multihull class is a new variable... perhaps the energy behind the Olympic push will make the USSA championship relevant.

I have no idea what the best way forward is right now. BUT... the problem is us... we have to figure out what we want and then make it happen. (the amount of USSA BS is just sand in the beach wheels.)




Mark,

I 100% agree without volunteers events don't happen. But do you need paid staffers to make the same events happen? I'm sure this is where you and I will disagree.

I don't know how much experience you've had working with US Sailing and trying to make a regatta happen but when they want to be they can be extremely difficult to work with (yes I'm sure they felt the same about me, I'm not really a go with the flow kind of guy). US Sailing really doesn't bring much to the table $$ wise either. After they get their cut the host club gets about $3K in sponsorship money. As far as needing paid staffers to keep it all going...maybe but I can tell you with a great deal of confidence that there is at least one paid staffer that could be replaced by volunteers. Wouldn't it be nice if the funding for that staff member was funneled directly into the championships.

Because US Sailing doesn't bring a lot of $$ to the table and the paid staffers aren't contributing to the success of the championship (based on my direct experience), is the championship really being served by its association with US Sailing? This idea has already been floated within US Sailing so I know we will lose the right to call it a championship and we will lose the trophy if that path is taken.

If this is going to end up being a BYOB DPN "Championship" then there really is NO value in keeping the championship oops, King of the World Cup with US Sailing. At one time I supported keeping the championship with US Sailing because it was the one thing we could hold up say this is a reason to be involved with US Sailing, but now... I think we are better served by serving ourselves.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 06:50 PM

Does anyone think the survey will turn up something surprising?

I don't think there is some groundswell of opinion to push this debate in any direction that you can suss out of a survey. If the championship is not held in 2012 or the future, I doubt that there will be much of blip.

IMO, 3/4 of the cat racers simply don't care to sort through the many issues...

US Sailing is going to want ONE mission statement for all of the championships they run..

The MHC council and the one design class leadership should then prepare a couple of proposals and put them up for a vote.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 07:08 PM

Dave

You need a paid staffer so that the regatta is pretty much at the same level three years from now as the event volunteer staff burnout and turn over.

You also need the US Sailing stamp because this Organizing Authority has credibility through out the country. Some people tried to reform NAMSA and do this job but you can see how well that has worked. There is simply no support for another organization.

Events like the NOODs in my area are run out of AYC...and Sailing World. The paid staff at Sailing World works with the paid staff at the Yacht club to get the very same volunteers out on the water to run the regatta. The price doubles for this regatta compared to the same three day regatta on Labor Day run by the Sailing Assn (CBYRA)

Do you need all of this overhead... (always a hot debate)...Is it valuable to partner with NOOD.... YMMV. The F18's find value in supporting these kind of events.. Could they have the same regatta a week later... certainly.

Negotiating a fair deal for all stake holders is a PIA.. Tis why I applaud all of those who take on this challenge. BUT... the price of the job is not the first order issue.

(Something like JO's has been much less of a problem.)


Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 07:14 PM

I doubt USS is overstaffed, at $40/member of gross revenue.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 07:19 PM

just to show my naievate' with USS, do they sponsor the Alter Cup winner at the Olympics or some other international event?

Or is this Alter Cup the pinnacle, and you're done after that...?
Posted By: Jake

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 07:50 PM

Alter Cup is the top event. It's not related to any other series (Olympics or otherwise) in any way other than having a slot for youth champions and having a slot for a team representing the boat used for the Olympics (there has been a Tornado spot reserved in the past).
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave

You need a paid staffer so that the regatta is pretty much at the same level three years from now as the event volunteer staff burnout and turn over.



When it came to the US Multihull Championship that was absolutely not the case. All the heavy lifting was done by the volunteers and the host.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


You also need the US Sailing stamp because this Organizing Authority has credibility through out the country. Some people tried to reform NAMSA and do this job but you can see how well that has worked. There is simply no support for another organization.



We could have a very long discussion as to why NAMSA never took off and I'd probably be in agreement with most of your opinions. As for US Sailing as the OA adding credibility to a regatta... yeah, that's debatable.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 09:30 PM

Quote

When it came to the US Multihull Championship that was absolutely not the case. All the heavy lifting was done by the volunteers and the host.


I have no doubt that is true..
But Consider... how much it would cost in travel, per diem and hotel to pay the travel of a staffer to even attend and work the event! So... can't live with em... can't live without em.

I do not want to be in the position of defending USSA policy on these events, personnel, negotiating skills,competence etc .. I know there are problems and limitations...

When everybody thinks they are getting screwed over ... the solution is clarity in expectations, finances and philosophy.

This is the opportunity to sort that out.... or the volunteers won't be there to run ANY event.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 09:40 PM

Quote
We had the US Sailing Champion on Champions on our lake here. They used borrowed Flying Scots and bought new sails for all the boats. They invited all the class champions and most didn't come. They have trouble finding a venue to host them. They invite "big names" in sailing and they have a hard time getting them to come. Paul Cayard came to our event and folks were quite excited to have a big name come to that event.


Mike, Perhaps you have not noticed... Multihulls have a similar problem. Would you say that Hobie 16 sailors are beating the door down to race the USSA championships? Yet they are the largest double handed class in the country.
Mulithull sailors do a much better job of supporting interclass championships (USSA Multihull or Area qualifiers then monohull sailors) .... Our tradition of handicap racing, weak as it may be, does get the sailors out on the race course competing occasionally.

The core question is. How valuable or interesting is an Inter Class championship to Multihull Sailors... (or to Dinghy sailors... to Keel boat sailors)

How you run this championship matters but this is not the key issue.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave

You need a paid staffer so that the regatta is pretty much at the same level three years from now as the event volunteer staff burnout and turn over.



When it came to the US Multihull Championship that was absolutely not the case. All the heavy lifting was done by the volunteers and the host.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


You also need the US Sailing stamp because this Organizing Authority has credibility through out the country. Some people tried to reform NAMSA and do this job but you can see how well that has worked. There is simply no support for another organization.



We could have a very long discussion as to why NAMSA never took off and I'd probably be in agreement with most of your opinions. As for US Sailing as the OA adding credibility to a regatta... yeah, that's debatable.


I was wondering how long it would be before NAMSA came up. Maybe it's time is now. The disenchantment with US Sailing is stronger than it has ever been.

Mark when I read your posts (and a couple of other folks) I hear the teacher from Charlie Brown.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/20/12 10:11 PM

If there is no Alter cup then the only reason to join US Failing is some yacht clubs require it. Now if the membership site at US Failing doesn't work like it should then you just get to pay extra late fees or miss events.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by rhodysail
I think the US Multihull Championship can be a fantastic, highly regarded and well attended event that encourages participation in the sport. This should be the goal. The championship does not have to be the premier US multihull event to be a great success.

I think that a North American or National championship in your chosen class is always going to be a greater focus for most racers at the higher level.

I believe that the key element for a successful US Multihull Championship, as I have defined it above, is differentiation (in the marketing sense of the word).

Product Differentiation: “A source of competitive advantage that depends on producing some item that is regarded to have unique and valuable characteristics.”

The Alter Cup needs to be something that other events are not. Be radical!

My suggestion is to make the Alter Cup an open Portsmouth handicap event. This is a radical idea the likes of which has never been tried in the US. Picture the Texel equivalent of course racing. Why not throw a distance race in there as well. Differentiate the Alter Cup from every other catamaran championship in the US. Do not bill it as the championship that will decide who is the best catamaran sailor in the US. You will be laughed at. Bill it as the event no one is going to miss because there is nothing else like it.
As much as I despise racing handicap, Bob's hit the nail on the head here.

Some other observations and comments:

Championship of Champions
I've competed in two, both in doublehanded monohulls (Y-Flyer and Flying Scots). Contrary to what Mike H. said, there's always a waiting list for entry. The one that I attended last year was extremely well organized, albeit a bit pricey ($400 for 3 days of racing, 1 day of practice). They fed us breakfast, lunch and dinner, gave us a bunch of swag and entertained us every night (Tom Ehman was the "surprise rock-star competitor"). Gary Jobson was there one night. Liz Walker was there the whole time. The Dallas Corinthian YC volunteers did the heavy lifting on the event and even hooked me up with a member family for a place to crash so I didn't have to pay for a hotel room. While I thought it was expensive at first, I think it was a good value for the money. I had a great time and met a lot of really nice people outside of the very narrow world of catamaran racing.

Some Perspective
This thread has only had input from 24 people (many of which only made 1 post). That's maybe 1% of the active catamaran racers in North America. Over half of the posters are from the southeast US (NC, SC, GA, FL). 25% are from the "east coast" - defined as VA on northward. Only three are from the west coast. Mike H. and I are the only ones from the Midwest.

Food for thought.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I have no doubt that is true..
But Consider... how much it would cost in travel, per diem and hotel to pay the travel of a staffer to even attend and work the event! So... can't live with em... can't live without em.

I do not want to be in the position of defending USSA policy on these events, personnel, negotiating skills,competence etc .. I know there are problems and limitations...

When everybody thinks they are getting screwed over ... the solution is clarity in expectations, finances and philosophy.

This is the opportunity to sort that out.... or the volunteers won't be there to run ANY event.


You are exactly right Mark, this particular staffer that we are talking about is not a valued asset but a liability so paying to have that resource there is counterproductive. Again, someone that could be easily replaced by volunteers and the championship would be better off for it, IMO. I'd also like to point out that Mr. Rejda got himself to Houston and LA on his own dime and "worked" the week. This is a volunteer who had to take time from is day job and again "paid" to be there!!!! The contrast between these two inviduals is crazy obvious, for one it's just a job, for the other it's a passion! Which one do you think served the championship better?

Now your point regarding clarity of expectations. US Sailing made it crystal clear what the expectations were. The problem was it was a complete screw job! So I/we had go begging to US Sailing to please please work with us so we could make sure that we not only gave the sponsors fulfillment but the host and provider didn't get completely boned in the process. This is where I leaned heavily on the previous chairs to develop the best approach to resolve the situation. I guess US Sailing got tired of having to negotiate.

Now if you do exactly what US Sailing wants and take exactly what's given and you’re grateful for it then things will be just peachy keen. Anything that goes outside those lines and you just might earn yourself a "Thank you for your service" letter.

Posted By: Fearless_Rider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 04:39 PM

We are US Sailing.
Lower your sails and surrender your vessels.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service us.
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is futile.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 04:52 PM

Is that a pledge to challenge USS?

It turns out USS has quite a bit more money than I thought.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 05:28 PM

The survey is now closed, with over 200 responses. Thanks to all for your time in helping us move forward with this.

We will compile the reults, and generate a long-term plan. I won't be logging much time here during that time.

I will say this: For those of you who just can't let go of the past, ponder this. When was the last time (outside of voting for an officer or class rule) you were ever officially asked for your opinion? You might want to have given us the benefit of doubt before bashing us (or the survey itself) before the survey was even closed.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 05:39 PM

Dave, I am sure those issues will re emerge when someone tries to put the championship back on line... It has worked out in the past.... all be it with a great deal of pain on both sides... I presume that it can work in the future..
I have no idea of the details... but i fully support the volunteers walking if the parties can't make it work. Said so at the MHC meeting if you remember.

Matt points out how few people participate in the debate... perhaps they think we are doing a fine job.. More likely they don't give a damn what happens... one way or the other. I think you design a championship that appeals to the elite sailors (max competition) and is open to the rank and file who BYOB.

What event would be unique (I agree with Merrick's point) and competitive enough to get the top sailors in the major One design fleets to spend time and money and compete?

I see it it as an open championship in something like double handed spinaker with charter boats available to the opposite coast sailors and NCAA champs and appropriate class champions.

Open to the USSA membership with a class legal boat or one with a measurement certificate. (Open handles the opportunity legal issues while regatta pricing takes into account the charter boat subsidies needed to make it work.

Everybody has their own boat... (this allows you to run a three day event with 10 races and not mess with equipment redress issues. (Much easier on a host club to run this kind of regatta.

Double handed spin (or sloop or single handed in alternate years) so that a measurement based handicap system can do a fair job rating similar boats.

If the new Mixed Multihull Class made this one of the domestic schedules big events.. And the One design classes promised to work to get their top sailors to the event (subsidize entry fee, provide a boat, ete etc ) I can see enough star power committed to the regatta to attract a lot of sailors willing to pay a premium to see how they measure up (laugh) (or get smoked).

Remember, Mixed multihull will probably have no more teams then the last few Tornado cycles had.... 3 to 5. Putting on a decent regatta will be problematic... Participating in a large open championship would be a good large fleet NA regatta for these sailors.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave, I am sure those issues will re emerge when someone tries to put the championship back on line... It has worked out in the past.... all be it with a great deal of pain on both sides... I presume that it can work in the future..
I have no idea of the details... but i fully support the volunteers walking if the parties can't make it work. Said so at the MHC meeting if you remember.

Matt points out how few people participate in the debate... perhaps they think we are doing a fine job.. More likely they don't give a damn what happens... one way or the other. I think you design a championship that appeals to the elite sailors (max competition) and is open to the rank and file who BYOB.

What event would be unique (I agree with Merrick's point) and competitive enough to get the top sailors in the major One design fleets to spend time and money and compete?

I see it it as an open championship in something like double handed spinaker with charter boats available to the opposite coast sailors and NCAA champs and appropriate class champions.

Open to the USSA membership with a class legal boat or one with a measurement certificate. (Open handles the opportunity legal issues while regatta pricing takes into account the charter boat subsidies needed to make it work.

Everybody has their own boat... (this allows you to run a three day event with 10 races and not mess with equipment redress issues. (Much easier on a host club to run this kind of regatta.

Double handed spin (or sloop or single handed in alternate years) so that a measurement based handicap system can do a fair job rating similar boats.

If the new Mixed Multihull Class made this one of the domestic schedules big events.. And the One design classes promised to work to get their top sailors to the event (subsidize entry fee, provide a boat, ete etc ) I can see enough star power committed to the regatta to attract a lot of sailors willing to pay a premium to see how they measure up (laugh) (or get smoked).

Remember, Mixed multihull will probably have no more teams then the last few Tornado cycles had.... 3 to 5. Putting on a decent regatta will be problematic... Participating in a large open championship would be a good large fleet NA regatta for these sailors.



And what would we need US Sailing for? They won't crack the tough nuts, they won't kick in any real $$, they will however happily take the $50 per person surcharge. So again what will US Sailing do for us? Nothing in Bob's proposal is a deal breaker if US Sailing is not involved. If US Sailing MUST be a player then I want to know what will we get for our $50 per person surcharge? The answer of paid staffers to keep train on the tracks is a red herring.
Posted By: pgp

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 06:11 PM

Any organization will divide and conquer. Unless you're willing to join with others, you'll get nowhere.
Posted By: orphan

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 - 02/21/12 06:52 PM

I just looked at the rest of the Championship series(US sailing website). Every single regatta is ONE DESIGN. Why would we make ours any different?
I also believe every regatta is my invite or qualification. Why would we make ours different?

Personally I feel that the last thing you want at a championship regatta is your average Joe on the course possibly screwing up someones else's race(one who deserves/worked thier a$$ off to be there).

Would I be interested in participating. No. Smart enough to know I don't belong there. Am I interested in the race. You bet. It is the best against the best on equal footing. Not something we get any where else. And that is the way it should be.

Am I a member of US Sailing? No. Used to be but then it got to where there were no benifits to me at all.
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