Just for the record

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_Sports_Act_of_1978

The Act charters the US Olympic Committee, which in turn can charter a national governing body (NGB) for each sport, such as USA Swimming, the United States Fencing Association, the United States Ski Team, USA Track & Field or the United States Figure Skating Association. Each NGB in turn establishes the rules for selecting the United States Olympic Team and promotes amateur competition in that sport.

http://about.ussailing.org/History.htm

According to the original constitution, NAYRU's authority stemmed from consent of its members and member associations over which it exercised jurisdiction in an advisory capacity. Today, its authority comes instead from an act of Congress (the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act of 1978) and a much broader charter to serve America's sailors directly.

The Stevens Act has to do with the Olympics. If your aren't an Olympic athlete are trying to become one it has no explicit control of your sport. There simply are no "sailng police".

It seems to me USS said, "Okay, we have broad powers regarding the Olympics, let's just take over everything until someone challenges us." The USS claim of authority over beach cat sailing is bogus, imo.

US Sailing claims no such authority. US Sailing is also an MNA under ISAF, which gives it certain clout with respect to organizing regattas.

No one is holding a gun to your head to sail under RRS, or US Sailing.

Where is the grass greener, exactly?

Mike

"Today, its authority comes instead from an act of Congress (the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act of 1978) and a much broader charter to serve America's sailors directly." I think this is where the wheels come off your argument, you're collecting membership fees under guise of the "broader charter" and not dealing with the beach cat community in good faith. It appears to me the old prejudice against multihulls persists.

In any case, the manner of electing the board and officers smells. It is hard for me to rationalize that very closed system with my understanding of the law of the land i.e. one man one vote. The whole thing smells.

"The Act requires that active athletes (defined as amateur athletes who have represented the United States in international amateur competition within the last ten years) must hold 20 percent of the voting power of any board or committee in an NGB". I think this deserves a closer look.

Errr...US sailing has claimed no authority over beach cat sailing. US Sailing is simply the major organizing body in the US for sailing - and we "sail"...so.....

There's no conspiracy (not on an organizational level anyway)...

Pete, please come back to the shallow end.

USS claims authority over everything that moves on the water! It's about collecting money.

not true! We don't have to use or be affiliated in any way with US Sailing. They are the conduit to the Olympics through the ISAF (just like all other Olympic disciplines have)...but that's about it. We are free to start our own organization, establish our own rules, etc. etc.

Go ahead and look, Pete. You'll find that the Board of Directors of US Sailing has way over the number of required number of Sailor Athletes. Only certain committees are required to have the 20% representation (explained here: http://about.ussailing.org/Directory/Councils/Sailor_Athlete_Council.htm).

If you call up any list of committee or council members on the US Sailing website, you'll see an "SA" column that shows the person's sailor athlete status. The only problem is that not every member who races has registered their sailor athlete status (takes about 5 minutes: http://www.ussailing.org/sac/athletes/register.asp).

As far as the election process go, what "elections" are you referring to? US Sailing Board of Directors? Multihull Council? None of these are "secret" processes. Some aspects are confidential - they have to be when you're talking about people's qualifications and capabilities, but the process isn't secret.

"The law of the land i.e. one man one vote?" W-T-F are you derping about? Do you think you actually cast a direct vote for the President of the United States? If so, you need a remedial course in government.

US Sailing members can vote for candidates to the board of directors - every year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims Just a thought, not that it is (or isn't) relevant to the topic at hand.

The nomination process for BoD is anything but open, I'm thinking that contaminates the voting process.

Reynolds v. Sims has to do with state legislatures and is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The nomination process is not a secret. The US Sailing Nominating Committee works just like any other nominating committee. Just because you're unaware of the process doesn't make it secret.

Let me enlighten you:
There are 13 members on the Nominating Committee (http://about.ussailing.org/Directory/Committees/Nominating_Committee.htm). I've been on it for 2+ years now, first as the One-Design Class Council Rep, and now the Multihull Council Rep. John Williams was the Multihull Council Rep before me.

Each committee member is free to nominate as many people for the board as they'd like. Nominees' names are put on a spreadsheet that also lists their attributes - where they're from, what they do (professionally and in sailing) and a host of other things. Right now, the spreadsheet has about 50 names on it.

2 to 3 board positions are filled each year. The Nominating Committee tries to keep the BoD balanced - not all from one region of the country; not all professional sailors, not all coaches, etc. That's the first filter applied to the spreadsheet that produces a "short list" of 10 or so people to contact to see if they're actually interested in being on the board. (Up to this point, they may not know they've been "volunteered".)

The real problem is that most people aren't interested in being on the board. It's a huge commitment in time and money (board members are expected to pay their own way to meetings and to contribute to the US Sailing Annual Fund). Some people don't want to be exposed to the possibility of losing an election. In the time that I've been on the NC, nobody has actually volunteered on their own to be considered for the board. Getting nominees to commit often requires considerable persuasion.

At the end of the day, we're lucky to have a handful of candidates to fill the open positions. If you (or anyone for that matter) is interested in being considered for the US Sailing BoD, just let me know and I'll be glad to put your name on the spreadsheet.

You've no idea what is relevant or irrelevant, that's the purview of courts and judges.

I didn't originate the notion of a legal challenge or coin the term "US Ailing". Yet, there is imo an unusual amount of discontent with USS. If they can't fix it perhaps they should just fold their tent. Or, focus on their mandate of Olympic sailing and leave the rest of us alone.

fwiw, I'm a member of USS to support the RRS and race officials (though I hear complaints even about that).

people will complain about anything. The RSS are actually quite well done. The system adapts and is very well reviewed. I find it astonishing that they put as much energy into including special rules for remote control sail boats as they do. I pity the fool / organization that would try to do better when it comes to RSS. It's a very fine balance between simple rules that still cover all the basis and there are undoubtedly the foremost experts involved in writing / modifying the rules within the ISAF / US Sailing.

That said, there are a couple of judges I think should have their accreditations yanked...but you'll find those in every crowd.

There is a sense of continuity with the RRS in that there were previous versions that have been amended as the sport changed.

This is a very good point. Does anyone know if there is a review process for accredited judges, or race officers for that matter? It would also be nice if reviews of judges and race officers were published on the US Sailing website. Knowing how many times a judge's ruling has been overturned by appeal and how many races have been tossed because of decisions made by the PRO has value. Most of us don't know the judges and race officers in our respective areas personally so we often have to select blindly and hope for the best. The informationg could also be seen as the MNA providing a service of value for its memembership.

just curious.... How many protest hearings are held at cat events in the south?

I have personally been involved in 2 in the past 12 months. One as a competitor, and one sitting on the PC. So I can say that they do happen.

Really Mark, are you still trying to have a go about that?

Karl, I'm pretty sure Mark was taking a shot at us based on the whole Steeplechase thing. Someone get me out of Mark's head... this place is freaking me out!

Does an organizational table exist for USS?

Grievances regarding race officials can filed with the Review Board (http://about.ussailing.org/Directory/Committees/Review_Board.htm) or you could bring your grievance to the attention of the appropriate committee (Race Management, Judges, Umpires, or Race Administration).

There has been talk of a rating system for race officials, but nobody's been able to figure out a way to not make it a popularity contest. Race Officials are asked to make difficult decisions that may not be popular at the time they are made. Have you ever known the person who lost a protest to be happy with the decision?

Cases overturned on appeal / abandoned races etc. are poor parametrics of overall performance. Often such things are out of the person's control (for example, having to abandon a race because a mark came loose). US Sailing would rather have the certification process weed out the unqualified individuals. No longer are race officials granted their certification "for life". We must renew our certifications every four years. ISAF certifications must be renewed every 2 years once you are over age 70.

NO... i did not want to start another go about Steeplechase.

It is an honest question. How many cat events and how many protests are heard in a year in your area. ... 1? 5? 10?

Again, up here... the Yacht club may have a member who does judging... otherwise the Head Judge will happily discuss your event and assign you a judge. The head judge makes sure that the his crew is up to date and certified. I am not sure why you would need a list... published someplace.

In my sailing region... I can think of only one protest in big multi's. Now juniors are another story... they have lots of protests that don't get settled on the water.

It seems simple to me. Both sides in a protest should be required to report on whether they think the ruling was fair/unbiased. A secret survey that is filled out after the ruling should be fine. The expected objection to this sort of idea is that everybody who wins a ruling will say the judge was "very fair" while everybody who looses will say "very unfair." Personally, I don't think that would be the case for every ruling in every situation. I suspect that some judges will be able to make a ruling and explain it convincingly enough that the looser will rate the judge higher. The upshot is that not every judge will have a 50% rating and a judge with a 55 or 60% rating would be highly sought after.

People who were not stakeholders in the ruling would not be allowed to rate the judge, that will mitigate the popularity contest aspects.

Thank you Matt.

Not sure I agree with the "it wasn't my fault" so you get a pass reasoning. The bottom line is the PRO is where the buck stops.

As part of the review process I would imagine it would work the same way the BBB reviews complaints. If a complaint is filed it's reviewed, if it's found to be an act of God then so be it. But, if there was a procedural mistake then that needs to be identified and remediated. The issue would then need to be published and what actions have been taken to prevent it in the future. From this your rankings would be created. Yes, you run the risk of it being a popluarlty constest, yes it will be difficult and probably unrewarding to administer. Based on your reply this issue has already been identified as a need and it would be in the interest of US Sailing's memebership to push forward and crack this nut, it's one worth cracking IMO.

I think it should be as simple as making factual information available about the judges. There are many more times over the number of unreasonable sailors as there are judges who have poor judgement. I wouldn't trust a sailor review process very much. Stick to the numbers. How experienced is this judge?...i.e. How long have they been accredited, how many regattas have they be involved with (it would be nice to be able to gauge the size/significance of the regattas somehow), how many cases have they heard, and specifically - how many rulings have been overturned by a higher process?

My vision would be the customer (the sailors) would file the complaint, then a qualified board (peer review board) would review and rule on the complaint, this really applies to Race Officers. For judges this process is already in place (appeal). What is not available as you pointed out is how often an appeal has been filed against a judge's ruling and how many times that judge has been overturned.

I also agree it should be as factual as humanly possible.

Have any of you considered USS just isn't all that well organized?

If you want to do something to make USS better, it needs that table of organization. Everyone needs to know who is accountable to whom and why. Then when you have a concern it is much simpler to contact the appropriate person.

Is there a paid administrator? Someone whose job is to know who is responsible for what?

Dave... that is what your RSA or regional sailing authority is for. Again... in my area... the yacht clubs organize into CBYRA... When a yacht club fubars an event... the sailors complain to the club and to the RSA (CBYRA) The CBYRA then tries to fix the problem ... The RSA's are the volunteer outfits that USSA sanctions.... when this does not satisify... you can always move the issue up to USSA.

So... Why take an issue national when a local or regional solution works. Seems to me that you guys need to work with your RSA more.

http://www.floridasailingassociation.org/

While I was the Area D rep I was charged with selecting the PRO and judge (if I could get one) for the semi-final. I also was responsible for finding a host club for the semi-final, it would be nice if yacht club review info was available. The best I could do was find a list of judges and PRO's that were in my area. There wasn't a resume for me to review so there was no way for me to know what I was getting. Certified all, but I've been around long enough to know that just because you're accredited doesn't mean your compitent. Due to the lack of this information I had to rely on word of mouth basically someone saying "yeah, they are good". Maybe it's a control thing but if I'm going to be held accountable I want to know what I'm getting especially if we're going to be on the hook for some or all of their expenses.

Florida Sailing Association

PO Box 988

(727) 787-2017

D


www.floridasailingassociation.org

Crystal Beach, FL 34681-0988

sbreeves@tampabay.rr.com


Office of Commodore held by Michael Dawson


Office of Rear Commodore held by David Billings


Office of Secretary held by SarahBeth Reeves


Office of US Sailing Contact held by SarahBeth Reeves


Office of Vice Commodore held by Thomas Rinda


The list is here
http://about.ussailing.org/Director...ations/Regional_Sailing_Associations.htm

Thanks.

The info I'm looking for isn't there. Please point me to the link that shows me how many times an appeal has been filed against a judge and how many times it's been upheld or overturned.

Show me a link that provides the statistics about Race Officers.

Isn't the RSA a part of US Sailing? If this isn't something US Sailing should work on... What is it that US Sailing does again?

If anything can be guaranteed, it's this: Whining about any of this here is not likely to move the ball forward.

Take your mouse, and find the people who can help you, it's really not very hard.

For ROs, here is a list of people to discuss this with: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Race_Officers/Committee/Committee.htm

More RO info here: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Race_Officers/Committee.htm

For judges, try this: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Judges/Committee.htm

Hope this helps.

Mike

Ah... here we go again... YOU ARE NOT BUYING A STINKING SERVICE!!..

This is a partnership of all of the interested organizations....handled at the local level.

Yes, cats have run their own world for 40 years..(Can you point me to reviews of Cat Sailing Clubs and their performance) Yacht clubs have been doing this work for years as well.. They do this in partnership with the OD fleets and the various clubs in the area.

Even a casual observer of sailboat racing probably knows that St Petersburg YC is one of the most successful YC's in the states at running high quality events... Having trained national level PRO's and judges... they have a large amount of experience. Hell, they even wrote their own one design scoring program (St Petes scorer)...

THe F18 board says that they did a great job last weekend for the F18's and they want to host another event in December. They have also done A cat events in the past ....

Did you guys look up St Petes on the "consumer reports table" before you signed up???

The asinine request that there be a "consumer reports" on PRO's and Judges is more of the same attitude...

I will say it again... You are NOT BUYING A PRO Service or a Judge service. You are supposed to be forming a partnership of volunteers to further the sport.

Just for the record, this is such a stupid thread.

You have done an amazing job showing me the value of US Sailing. I feel like a fool for not renewing my membership, thank you for your patience and time.

You're confusing entities here, Dave. Judges don't issue decisions - Protest Committees do. Usually there's more than one judge on a protest committee.

When a decision is appealed, it first goes to the Regional Sailing Association Appeals Committee made up of . . . judges (who may be no better than the original protest committee). That decision can be appealed again - to the US Sailing Appeals Committee where it's reviewed by . . judges (a group currently led by Dave Perry and includes Dick Rose). The buck usually stops there.

But along the way, you should know that "Facts Found" in a protest cannot be appealed (RRS 70.1). Decisions of International Juries cannot be appealed (RRS 70.5). Typically events that determine a qualifier to a higher event have very limited appeal rights (specified in the NOR/SIs and must be approved in advance by US Sailing) (RRS 70.5(a)).

How about this Protest Committee scenario - a very domineering Chief Judge overrules one (or more) subordinate judges in the decision and then the decision is overturned on appeal. Should the subordinate judges be penalized for that? (I've seen this happen more than once.)

Like I said, appeals of decisions made by a protest committee of which a judge is but a part are a poor metric of that judge's capability.

good point.

ISAF has reports that get filed for major events, and I believe that there has been discussion of doing something similar at US Sailing.

Again, talking to those committees is your best option at this point.

Mike

Is there a continuing education requirement for judges? Do they re-certify after a certain time period, or if they do not exercise their authority (act as PRO) a minimum number of regattas per term (year, two year, etc)?

The few judges and PROs I've sailed under seemed very qualified, but I've never had to walk into the room...

and would the steeplechase thing be a possible reason why we typically choose to sail under RRS in the first place? Had that not been settled amicably (eventually), I would certainly use that as the poster child for having a universally accepted ruleset and accountability protocol..

Yes. Every judge must re-certify every four years:
- Take the two-day class
- Pass the exam
- Be knowledgeable and experienced in the running of races and have performed in a major role on the water in at least three U.S. events during the last four years
- Be an active member of protest committees. In the last four years,served on protest committees for at least three years and chaired at least three hearings at a regatta of significant importance to the region; served on juries in at least three events in the US at the interclub, regional or national level.

The re-certification process for Race Officers is similar, except that for National Race Officer re-certification, you need to have a personal "on-the-job" review by another NRO or IRO.