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Why are F-18's so expensive?

Posted By: F-18 5150

Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 07:20 PM

Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.

If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 07:33 PM

The Tornado price you have is a couple of years old and does not include sails.

There is only one opportunity to buy an F20C for less than a new F18 - that is a used vs new scenario, too.

Yes, prices have gone up - in that period, we have seen all F18 production go overseas, so every purchase price for US sailors is based on some other currency. Until Matt finishes the new Falcon Marine F18, that situation will continue.

In addition, while I appreciate your sticker-shock, please take 15 minutes and price a Melges 24... or even the jib for a FARR 40. We have world-class racing for a fraction of the cost in just about any other class on the planet.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 07:47 PM

I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 07:49 PM

2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US.
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 07:56 PM

Quote on a Tornado

15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD
Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:09 PM

http://www.darrenbundock.com/darrenbundock/4sale.html

Used boat, race ready, $38K USD

Where are you seeing a new boat for $21K USD? My Google isn't finding anything in that neighbourhood.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:11 PM

Rich Vilvens ‎15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD great price for that boat.

Rich Vilvens Is that fully rigged?

Roland Gaebler Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.

They put the price on the boat being used for the olympic selection trials.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:17 PM

Ah. Not quite apples to apples, eh?

How much to your door from Santander? ;-)
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:23 PM

Ok John add a couple grand for tax and shipping it's still cheaper than most F-18's.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:34 PM

The price Rich is quoting is for the Exploder Tornado, and is being used as a selling point to get the class back into the Olympics. The price is quoted here: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/02/olympic-trials-interview-with-roland.html The boat comes with one-design sails, which are also price controlled, so I'm sure that helps.

I suspect that part of the reason the price is relatively low for the Tornado is supply and demand. How many Tornados have been sold in the last few years? Have any of the Exploders actually sold at the price given, or is it part of the campaign for the games?

I don't know the answers, and I'm not accusing the Tornado class of anything, but I'm not sure it's a great comparison.
Posted By: JACKFLASH

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:38 PM

Yea I don't buy it. I understood the Tiger going up as the US dollar inflated compared to the Euro. Than the Wild Cat came out and was up there too. But the Infusion was up there in price along with them well before production moved over seas. Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there? Other wise, why move production at all. I think the reallity of it is because they can.
As for the Melges, yes they are expensive little buggers, but it is all really gotten out of hand.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:38 PM

Rich, I get your angst, but you're still comparing a used boat to a new boat - a boat with no class racing in the US to one with lots - and your budget for tax and shipping is pretty tight. A full container from the EU is running about $600/boat with 8-10 boats. You can risk consolidated freight for about $1,200-1,500 plus whatever you get charged by whoever packs it. Then pay your tax when it clears customs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just factual. You can change the question and get a different answer, I suppose.

If you're looking for a good, used F18, deals abound! Drop me an email and I'll point you at some killer, unadvertised rigs.

edit - Ah, now I see the Exploder price. I don't know anyone who's bought one, so I have no idea if that is real. Note the massive price difference between the Exploder and the Marstrom.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:43 PM

Hey Collin -

Yep, the labor is cheaper, which means the margin is better at the top-tier, which ain't your local dealer or the sailors.
Posted By: mini

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.


I work in the composites industry. I know that our resin and chemical prices have at least doubled since 2004. The cost of insurance and compliance in the US has been about the same. Every other purchased component , supply etc has gone up also. A double price point boat is not that unrealistic.

Nacra, ahpc, and now Cirrus are all leading the charge to China. No compliance regulations to speak of and cheap labor.

I do not think it is fair to blame currency as the relative rate all across the globe is about the same increase. To believe the class hype that a tight rule set will provide pricing security and/or equal racing is pretty much BS too.
For a long time the Tiger ruled and Hobie was able to more than recover their investment. The success of the class has brought on a huge series of development projects. The Tiger lost at Worlds and just like that we have the Wildcat. The cap while still an almost new design, quickly developed a bad reputation for some of its handling and bam out comes the C2. Nacra had 3 designs come out. Get on any older F18 and a new 1 and the rig development alone makes them almost completely different to sail: constant sail making and rigging evolution. Right now the group all has to tool up new deep daggers. All these things cost money and will continually drive costs of new product. You want to keep costs in line then quit racing.

I spent less than 3K for my first new H16. Now a strict 1 design boat (with relatively speaking zero technology) with all of its development tooling and sales long long ago paid for sells for around 11K.

Like John said: we still have it incredibly good for the relative cost of what we get when buying a cat.

P.S. is that one of the Polish T’s?
I bought a pair of blank carbon mast tubes from Marstom years ago that cost me nearly that much, so I know that price for a new T was not from them.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 08:47 PM

Just a clarification, Nacra boats and the Viper are built in the same factory in Thailand. Not sure about the C2.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 09:00 PM

Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?

Sort of like saying why does a Prius cost so much, and being told that a Lexus costs so much more, so it's OK for the Prius to be overpriced.

Apples and oranges.

Having said that, we're all pretty cheap (frugal, whatever), and I personally think they are all way out of line for what you get. Not that I could make them cheaper, I just hate the costs.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there?


Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


and, your dollar is fu(king worthless.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 09:46 PM

Hey, you want to go faster, cheaper?

Get out of the water! For $4,500 you can buy this kit and build it in your garage.

It's like a Harley...with Wings!

http://simplexaero.com/pops-props-cloudster/

Here's a video of it in flight; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSlX8ZHiN7M

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 09:57 PM

Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"


But we are not on a Melges forum are we.
My original post was just that the price goes up a lot faster than what we are getting.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.

Yeah, what he said.

Wonder what the new falcon marine f18 will cost.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:23 PM

Matt has a nice target number, but I don't know if he'll have a final price until the first boat is out of the mold... or maybe the second?
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:33 PM

The main reason why and F18 costs more than a Tornado from Exploder is the foils... To build a set of foils for a Tornado is very easy, but the F18 is really quite expensive to build due to the length and shape of the boards. From our perspective we could save some money on the foil construction by building them wet layup with foam like everyone else, but by going prepreg autoclave built we have super stiff foils that are unbreakable (rocks excluded..) Sure it costs more, but it works better and it is after all a race boat...

We currently build our Phantom in the same factory as the Exploder Tornado and all the rest is about the same costs. We take a lot of time with the hull construction because we want a super stiff boat and we use a bit more material compared to the tornado because the hull weights in F18 are higher than the Tornado, So we could actually save money by reducing the F18 min weight smile
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:42 PM

Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?
Posted By: bacho

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.


EPA and most Gov regulations are out of control, Way too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

The price on most toys seems to have really jumped in the past 6-8 years. I did some searching back through old receipts on a project I did in 2006 and was surprised to see 30-50% increases on parts across the board since then.
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 11:21 PM

I bought a boat in January 2010 and bought the same boat just recently in March 2012. The 2012 has longer dagger-boards so there is some increase in value there. I calculated the cost of each boat converting USD to the currency of the country the boat was manufactured in at the time of purchase (AUS). The DECREASE in price (not accounting for two years of inflation) was 3.6%.
In USD terms the INCREASE was 14%.

I got quotes from another brand at the time of both purchases and the increase in USD terms was just about the same 13.7% (this new boat also had longer dagger-boards).

http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 11:32 PM

Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/19/12 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).


I wouldn't say it is all greed but more so making the money while they can... I'll bet if we spun the clock back when the manufactures were pushing 20 or 30 boats a week out the door like they were in the hey day of catamaran sailing the prices would be a little lower.

Originally Posted by John Williams
2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US Catalina Yachts
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.


From what I remember back then they had looked at manufacturing elsewhere due to all the EPA, other regulations, and fees they had to pay to manufacture in Santa Ana..

As for the price being high, if you're willing to pay the price for what I am selling the product for; then so be it, and don't complain.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).


Resin Research Composite Pro is better than West and costs less. Your not officially allowed to complain about epoxy prices until you pay over $200/gallon for the good stuff, like Pro-Set and MGS.

The price of carbon keeps going up, which keeps increasing the costs on foils. I have carbon here that is over $100 per meter, and you need quite a few meters to build a 7 foot long F18 dagger board.

New sail prices aren't exactly going down either, few production boats are coming with U.S built sails so that's another USD<Euro problem.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 01:26 AM

F18 daggers are now 7 feet long???

Posted By: samc99us

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 03:15 AM

The Nacra MKII daggers are 6' 6" long:

http://www.microwindracing.com/images/mkIIdaggerboards.JPG
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?


Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is, "Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?"


You have been close to a Melges, right? For starters, there is a lot more material in those boats than ours. Considering the relative size, they are somewhat proportionally priced to a F18. Not to mention, their sails cost a ridiculous amount of money. How they ultimately justify the cost of these boats is beyond me, although I'd venture to say there are fewer of them than most people realize, and probably take a lot of labor to build.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:18 AM

I thought I saw a price for the 'new' Melges 20 (a 3 man, open sport monohull, like a Flying Scot on 'roids) that was about $40K!

I remember thinking at that time, "Wow, you could buy TWO racing cats for that!"

I think Resin is a byproduct of Oil (Petrolium based) and I know you know what's been going on with the price of oil lately, so it's no surprise that the price of everything oil based is up too....then there's the increased shipping cost, because the delivery trucks run on...OIL.

Have you seen the price of Diesel fuel lately?

There are some good deals on used boats out there, thank God! But the price of -everything- is going up, it's your paycheck that's not going up as quickly, that's why it hurts a lot more.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:40 AM

and...we're off.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 12:51 PM

Where are you -off- to?

If you're going a long way, you may want to hire one of those 'Calgary Asian Escorts' I've seen advertised here! ;^0

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 01:37 PM

i would also suggest that real inflation (not US govt numbers), QE1 & 2, and fuel cost have exacerbated the cost of everything
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Where are you -off- to?

If you're going a long way, you may want to hire one of those 'Calgary Asian Escorts' I've seen advertised here! ;^0



I was just pointing out that the talk of oil was going to initiate the dive into the depths of political discord.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 02:21 PM

Give it a moment.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 02:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?


In a word: Yes.

We can build a very stiff F18 for less money if the total boat weight was 166kg. But with the rules being at 180kg, we just build a super stiff F18 for a bit more $.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:01 PM

How long would it stay stiff?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:12 PM

I'll let you guys in on a few secrets.

1. There isn't much mark up in boats.
2. They actually cost next nothing to make
3. Most of the profits are used to directly fund global terrorism
4. The rest of the profits are used by secret societies to keep things like the JFK assassination and moon landing under wraps.

So only the first one is true, but I kinda like pulling conspiracy theories outta my butt.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:16 PM

So, if catamaran sales fund Terrorism, does that mean that Jet Ski sales fund the Global War on Terrorism?

From what I have seen here on my lake, most of the Jet Skis are being driving by....TERRORISTS!!
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
How long would it stay stiff?


depends on how many blue pills you take smile

but seriously, the general laminate on our boats is so over specced (we use foam that is almost twice as thick as the big builders) that the boats are quite unstressed. We can do this because each boat is built carefully by highly skilled people and there is no mess left inside the hulls and the joins etc are all carefully prepared and finished. In the 166kg build there is really not much difference in the overall laminate. We just put more in there because we had to get the weight up!

I'm not saying that I want the weight to change for the class (i'm in enough trouble with the class already!!) but if we want to reduce cost and improve the longevity of the boats there are some solutions out there.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:25 PM

To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
From what I have seen here on my lake, most of the Jet Skis are being driving by....TERRORISTS!!


No, those are probably just teenagers.

Or, guys that can't afford real power boats and don't have the intelligence to sail a boat...

Mike
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:33 PM


Exploder Tornado for € 15.900 ?

Well, that is not going to be the same as a Marstrom we have come to know over the last 20 years. So I don't understand what Roland is getting at other then trying to confuse the quality of a carbon masted Marstrom with the price of an alu masted Hobie 16 with spi upgrade kit.

We all know that that is rather going to be the other way around. When that happens you basically got an outdated design (hull and boards) with a rig that can easily be put on the other boats as well in the way of costs and performance. Or does anyone really believe that a F16 carbon rig will be more expensive then the larger Tornado carbon rig ?

In my view Roland has become a bit unhinged lately.

Wouter



Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'll let you guys in on a few secrets.

1. There isn't much mark up in boats.
2. They actually cost next nothing to make
3. Most of the profits are used to directly fund global terrorism
4. The rest of the profits are used by secret societies to keep things like the JFK assassination and moon landing under wraps.

So only the first one is true, but I kinda like pulling conspiracy theories outta my butt.


Now you must die. You have violated the law of the sacred order of catamaran exploiters. Ignore the black helicopters and the men outside your windows. Your termination will be swift and painless.
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.


No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes smile

To make it simple for you:-

F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight

Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 05:09 PM

I think the comparison to the Melges 24 is valid. But you have to take more than the cost of the boat into consideration. Both boats are high performance race boats. Both classes are deep with very talented sailors. Both classes have active schedules and North American championships with great attendance levels (althought the M24 numbers have dropped off recentley). With all that in mind, which class is the better bargain? Travel to a M24 regatta, and bring your 4 crew along with you, that's gonna be expensive. Want new sails for that regatta, better take out a second mortgage on your house.

Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 06:02 PM

A new set of F16/18 sails is about $4k? (shot from the hip, I didn't look)

How much are M24 sails?!
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 06:04 PM

Coming from someone who owns and has been actively campaigning M24's and F18's for over 10 years. I can tell you that Karl is spot on the costs of running each campaign. One week racing the M24 at Key West, Miami, or Annapolis costs more than my annual F18 budget. The only F18 event that comes close in cost is the Tybee 500...

A set of M24 sails is about $6,500, and they have less than 1/2 the life of F18 sails.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
A set of M24 sails is about $6,500, and they have less than 1/2 the life of F18 sails.


Holy crap.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 06:33 PM

Back in 2007, I was calling the line on the pin boat for the Melges 32 Nationals in Newport. Someone on the boat made the comment that all the competitors had new sails for that event, and that a set of sails (I think just main and jib) cost $16,000 at that time.

My response: I can buy two whole boats for that (Hobie 16 at the time)!!!

Granted, a 32 carries much larger sails than a 24, but WOW...

Mike
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 06:38 PM

Since the M32's have switched over to carbon sails, the main/jib combo is over $20k.

Thank god, the M24's are still limited to aramid or dacron sail cloth.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Back in 2007, I was calling the line on the pin boat for the Melges 32 Nationals in Newport. Someone on the boat made the comment that all the competitors had new sails for that event, and that a set of sails (I think just main and jib) cost $16,000 at that time.

My response: I can buy two whole boats for that (Hobie 16 at the time)!!!

Granted, a 32 carries much larger sails than a 24, but WOW...

Mike


Not true!! I was crewing on the one boat that didn't have new sails... and we got destroyed!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 07:48 PM

Thanks for the laugh Jeff!

Was it really the sails???

Reminds me of Al Bundy: "It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat..."

wink

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 07:53 PM

No, it wasn't the sails at all. I was sailing with a group from Cleveland (home) that owned the boat to sail as a family. It was a really great group, but the helmsman was in his seventies, and we just weren't competitive with the pros. Great racing though, and I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to race with such a passionate group.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by pgp
To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.


No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes smile

To make it simple for you:-

F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight

Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.


As always, you attack the class rules. If you can't work within them just say so. Start your own class that conforms to your rules.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 09:56 PM

I doubt Macca can even remember paying for a boat out of his own pocket wink
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I doubt Macca can even remember paying for a boat out of his own pocket wink

Now I pay for many boats out of my own pocket!!!
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by pgp
To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.


No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes smile

To make it simple for you:-

F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight

Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.


As always, you attack the class rules. If you can't work within them just say so. Start your own class that conforms to your rules.


Pete, You still struggle to understand the written words. I have not attacked any rules, I just made a statement regarding the cost of building boats and the relationship to weight and stiffness. You brought the F16 into it, so don't cry when the shortcomings are pointed out.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:04 PM

How's this. You've always criticized the F16 weight, now you're ranting about the F18 weight. If, as you say, you can save money at both ends, describe this remarkable optimum boat for us. Hell, why not build one! The world will come flocking to your door! You'll be annointed THE MACCA! In time we'll all come to forget the word "Hobie" and every catamaran will become known as a "MACCA"! You'll be rich and famous (think of the women that will come flocking to you)!

THE MACCA 17? So, just how much should a proper catamaran weigh? The world wonders. Ooh, ooh, can you deliver it for $10K?
Posted By: MarkW_F18

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:16 PM

Anyone interested in a '05 Tiger? Only raced 3-5 times per year. Excellent condition. Loyd and I are looking to sell ours.. We're looking for about $10K. So is that half the price of a new one? What a bargain. My daughters are racing more with me on the H16 so I never get a chance to sail the F18. I haven't raced it since 2010.
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:22 PM

Pete, you really have some issues to work out, I have never met you but your charm and intellect on this forum are enticing to say the least.

I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a "rant" and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/20/12 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Pete, you really have some issues to work out, I have never met you but your charm and intellect on this forum are enticing to say the least.

I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a "rant" and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?


He really likes you, it's his way of flirting. He really, really wants a boat named after you.It all makes sense.
Jake could say it with big words and sciencey descriptions, I just give the insight.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Pete, you really have some issues to work out, I have never met you but your charm and intellect on this forum are enticing to say the least.

I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a "rant" and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?


Indeed it's about the price of F18s. So why the issue of weight and stiffness?

Admittedly in this case "rant" is a hyperbole. But I get so tired of chasing away the red herrings, straw man arguments, and ad hominem fallacies. Couldn't you be just a little creative? You've begun to sound like Goldilocks, (squeaky, high pitched voice) "this boat is too light, this boat is too stiff, the new wonderful "Macca" will be just right. It will be made of paper mache and cost just 12 cents."

Come on man, throw in some fancy looking equations, refer to some engineering concept I've never heard of. "Too light, too heavy." It's boring. I'll bet Wouter's wooden home build is just as fast and just as stiff as anything rolling out of any factory any where in the world.

That may be why ISAF won't consider a home build! One or two people here will remember that Holman and Moody started in a garage and became the BEST in their field.

Back to the subject, the price is what it is because that's what the traffic will bear. I'm betting the OP knows that and was just lamenting how addicted he is to this sport.

Time for my meds...
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:17 AM

OK Guys - against my better judgement, I have to post.

How in the world can these things get so twisted? This board is one of my favorites and you are clearly a smart bunch. However, every now and then things seem to go very awry. How can an objective question get turned into personal attacks? Perhaps its SAD, too much time on the hands, whatever...

My take: Things are simply more expensive. My apologies to non-US guys for this example, but a decked-out mid-size Buick was $25k 12 years ago. Just saw one on the lot Sunday for over $40k. Yikes! (btw, I was there for another reason - I'm not a big Buick fan...)

Why are they more expensive? There are many good (as in relevant) reasons, but I think that goes way beyond the scope of what we should belabor here. This is catsailor.com, isn't it?

Personally, I'm in the market for an F18. However I've held off due to cost. Do I begrudge that fact? No. I realize its a toy and putting money away for kids college etc. has to be a priority - at least for now ;-) .
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.

If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?


I curious... Are you going to buy that $21K Tornado, or are you going to spend the extra for an F-18? I think your answer will help explain why F-18s cost more than Tornados... Just a thought.

Posted By: daniel_t

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.


Why would class weight need to increase to build a stiff F-16? The class specifies minimum weight, not maximum. Hell, a Mystere 5.0 XL fits in the F-16 box. It's even heavier than the Viper.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by rehmbo
OK Guys - against my better judgement, I have to post.

How in the world can these things get so twisted? This board is one of my favorites and you are clearly a smart bunch. However, every now and then things seem to go very awry. How can an objective question get turned into personal attacks? Perhaps its SAD, too much time on the hands, whatever...

My take: Things are simply more expensive. My apologies to non-US guys for this example, but a decked-out mid-size Buick was $25k 12 years ago. Just saw one on the lot Sunday for over $40k. Yikes! (btw, I was there for another reason - I'm not a big Buick fan...)

Why are they more expensive? There are many good (as in relevant) reasons, but I think that goes way beyond the scope of what we should belabor here. This is catsailor.com, isn't it?

Personally, I'm in the market for an F18. However I've held off due to cost. Do I begrudge that fact? No. I realize its a toy and putting money away for kids college etc. has to be a priority - at least for now ;-) .


Imo, the perception of personal attacks is due to the acceptance of political correctness, debate is becoming a lost art. Unless you limit remarks to the banal you'll be subject to criticism.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by daniel_t
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.

If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?


I curious... Are you going to buy that $21K Tornado, or are you going to spend the extra for an F-18? I think your answer will help explain why F-18s cost more than Tornados... Just a thought.



Daniel.
No I'm not going to buy a Tornado. I like the F-18 fleet in my area, and I also like my boat. At the current prices I will be keeping my Tiger or trying to pick up a used newer style boat.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 01:51 AM

I knew it was only a matter of time before the wheels fell off Pete's bus again.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 02:01 AM

Pete's neither upset nor losing it, and probably his meds are working out just fine; he's just trying to have a debate, he even said so.

How else did we get to page 8 without an attack on US Sailing?

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 02:42 AM

This whole thread reminds me of that old joke:

Why are Divorces so Expensive??

Because...they are WORTH IT!
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 03:01 AM

But no one wanted 2 divorces at the same time.
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by pgp


Indeed it's about the price of F18s. So why the issue of weight and stiffness?



Because, both weight and stiffness are major factors in determining the cost of the boat!!!

Just as foil length and aspect ratio are major factors in cost. if we were still using 2.5ft long boards made of foam and glass then the boats would be cheaper, but we now have 7ft boards made only from high modulus carbon, so they cost a lot more.

I don't think its possible to make it any easier for you to grasp the concept, so if you still don't get it, I'm sorry, but thats as simple as the issue gets!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 09:58 AM

You're operating within a market. The only thing you know for certain about a market is that it will fluctuate! Recent history shows us a collapse of the housing market, and a lesser collapse with cars. Do you think the F18 market is immune?

Keep focusing on cost, without regard to price, and the market will test that theory.

When was the last time there was a retreat in F18 sales? You've had one or two posters in this thread point out that margins are sharply down! So, go ahead, continue focusing on cost. Price will take care of itself.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/21/12 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I think the comparison to the Melges 24 is valid. But you have to take more than the cost of the boat into consideration. Both boats are high performance race boats. Both classes are deep with very talented sailors. Both classes have active schedules and North American championships with great attendance levels (althought the M24 numbers have dropped off recentley). With all that in mind, which class is the better bargain? Travel to a M24 regatta, and bring your 4 crew along with you, that's gonna be expensive. Want new sails for that regatta, better take out a second mortgage on your house.

Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!


Thanks, Special K - you apparently said it better than I.
Posted By: pepin

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/29/12 06:14 PM

I think the F18 class is trying hard to keep the cost down, but it's a battle hard to win. Each development is incrementally more expensive.

The board length is a great example, a set of custom autoclaved carbon boards for a F18 do cost a small fortune. Some top teams have them made by Reverie. £1100 for one. £2200 a pair. That's $3500 just for the daggerboards...

I hope that the class rules are going to be amended to limit the length of the daggerboards to limit cost.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 03/29/12 07:27 PM



OK, I've got to chime in here. Well, I don't have to, but I am.

Pete, this vid of Monty Pythons is awesome!- from a conservative point of view!

Macca, I have met you twice, here in the states. I think you are spot on with your summaries of the costs, etc. But dude, sailing a 'Macca', now that sounds pretty fly!

Good day to all
Posted By: diane21

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 08:00 AM

Check out Vetcentric - some products of their prices are very good.



pet meds



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 01:37 PM

pet meds? they must think our "cats" are sick
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 02:44 PM

Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 I’ll throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.
Posted By: mini

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by TheManShed
Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 I’ll throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.


Materials ARE way up, but this is not the major cause of the cost.
It is the expectations of what people are purchasing that is driving the cost escalation.

Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints. We used to get by with stamped metal blocks, stay adjusters etc. Now we buy a boat and it has to have carbon blocks – really. It was 2-3 bucks for a stamped strip with holes in them for the side stays, now we expect 45 dollar sta-masters or 75+ calibrated turnbuckles., high tech tapered lines etc.

Horizontal cut Dacron sails were norm, now we have to have radial cut Pentex, carbon, whatever super sails to compete. Some 5 times the amount of sewing and a huge jump in material cost.

All these things add up to way in excess of double and if you really look at what people are getting for their money, I would venture to say the cost of an F18 or other performance boat is a better value, relative to what you are purchasing, now than the boats that were being raced 20 years ago. Do we need those things – that is debatable, but it is what we have progressed to.

If costs are the driving factor, then hey there is a class still for you – Rick here would love to see everyone on Waves.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by mini


Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.


Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 03:41 PM

Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in! laugh
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 03:58 PM

Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.

It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.
Posted By: mini

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by TheManShed
Originally Posted by mini


Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.


Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.


Here’s the spin.
I build composites for a living so I know a bit about this. I do not build boats anymore so there is no interest here on my part other than as an observer.

Polyester resin, gel coat, chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day. I have visited a factory making F16. They were using Vinylester resin and gel coat still purchased by the pound. The fabrics are textile weaves, knit cloth and uni directional fabrics. The knits are still by the pound, but the uni and textiles are by the square yard. (Note Chop strand mat and woven roving run between 1.05 1nd 1.50 a pound, knits anywhere up to about 2.50/lb depending on the fabric weight, where a 6oz textile weave is about 3/sy or almost $9 per pound should you care to compare)

With an H16 assuming your mold is good you glue together the hull and deck, trim the edge and you are done. The newer performance hulls all have finished seams, requiring labor to fair and finish whether it if it is gel coat or paint it is still a lot of work. I have followed your blog – so you should know a little bit about the amount of work that goes into a fair shinny surface. Apart from the regulations on most developed countries this is a big part of the reason many of the companies have gone to China.

Open up your Harken or Ronstan catalog and look up the difference in price between the carbo line and the Hexaratchet stuff, look up Dyneema lines vs. pure polyester, look at sat-masters vs. holed chain plates. Everyone more the double at current prices. Add to that the fact the cost of the cheap stuff has still had its fair share of increase as well.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:13 PM

Our junior sailing fleet is made up of Sabots with dacron sails and Open Bics with clear plastic, wind surfer type sails. The dacron sails are pretty much bullet proof, the plastic not so much. At three years old they started to crack and tear. It was costing us $40 a panel to repair vs. replacing them for $450 each.

One of the kid's father works for Neil Pryde. He goes to their loft in China every two months. He looked at the Bic sails and said he could get them duplicated in his loft for $150 and he'd cover the shipping.
Posted By: mini

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheManShed
Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.

It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.


Here I agree with you, on the bail out to China. Pretty crappy and it is not a US only issue as several Euro builders have and are making the jump as well. You can all buy boats now made inthe same shop - what a deal. mad

You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by mini

You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon


Yep! And as long as Matt keeps the build in the US that's where I'll buy my next F18!
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:42 PM

Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube

20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...

There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:50 PM

mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards…
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. I’m guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control…..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.
Posted By: orphan

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 04:51 PM

I gotta ask. What was the breakdown on 1700 in mast parts?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in! laugh


i would think economies of scale are needed to be profitable (that doesn't even take "competitive" into account)
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by TheManShed
mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards…
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. I’m guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control…..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.


I think if you're laying up a hull with a glass chopper gun, you will be buying glass spools by the pound.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 06:53 PM

Ha I remember my first boat building job they had a hell of a chopper gun!

Jake how do you vacuum bag Chopper Mat?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube

20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...

There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18


There was alot of hardware in the same boat 5 years ago at almost half the price. The factories are taking everyone for a ride ,dealers included.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 08:24 PM

It would be interesting to know (not that we ever will), what percentage of the big builders' selling price represents their marketing costs.
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 09:10 PM

Mast hardware cost $1700?? what did you get? Can you give us a list?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 09:15 PM

Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.

Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 11:23 PM

The second boat builder I worked for - power boats - in the late 70's really didn't need the money it was more that he wanted a boat with his name on the boat. Anyway he left the business when liability insurance got so high, offered it me, I ran the business for him. I almost took the deal but decide on a real job as I was getting married. You always wonder what if …. The mark-up was about 2/3rds back then on the complete boat, plus everything you sold them as an add-on was gravy not counting return shop fees. But like I said he did not want the insurance liabilities he already had his pile of money.
Posted By: macca

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/18/12 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.

Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.


Wayne, you make it sound like building boats is a real business with a goal of making a profit, not so different from any other business really... smile I am not suggesting that there are massive amounts to be made or that builders are greedy, I haven't seen too many of them with 3 houses and ferrari's....

Now, I need to buy a car next week, can't decide between the cayenne or the range rover.. smile
Posted By: kyle robberts

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 01:45 AM

If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by mini
... chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day.

Hobie 16s have never been made with chop strand mat or rovings in the hull laminate.

And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.

And I don't buy the hardware spin either. Harken Carbo blocks are less expensive than comparable Harken Classic blocks.

I'm not saying anybody's getting rich here, but something ain't right.

People on this forum bemoan shrinking fleets and that "there's no new blood". Has anyone considered that high-tech boats are just too expensive and demanding for newbies? That they don't see the benefit of dropping $25K on a toy?

And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as "beginner boats", "pitchpole machines" and look down your noses because they aren't "high tech".

You're "high-teching" yourself into a very limited existence.
Posted By: orphan

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 01:14 PM

10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by kyle robberts
If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one


Funny - but more often true then not! I have one friend that started from hocking everything to start-up his boat building business to making over a million when he sold it. It was and still is a great boat. 10 years later he is living in his shop and his ferrari 308 does not run but he did what he wanted to do that has no price on it!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 02:45 PM

IIRC, the H-16 was about the same price as a Toyota Corolla when it first came out. Now it is much less, fwiw.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 02:57 PM

The simple fact of the matter is that it's a free market, it only makes sense that a provider will charge what the market will bare. Even at these prices I would have had to wait 6 months for an Infusion and even then there was no guarantee I could get it before North Americans. I bought a C2 because it was sitting in a warehouse waiting for my check. I think most would admit that the F18 designs have converged and that only thing left is price. If the margins are as fat as you think they are prices will fall or providers will move to a market where they can make money.
Posted By: F18_VB

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:01 PM

I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).

That conveniently neglects the effects of inflation, which are significant.

My father bought our first Hobie 16 (new) in 1973 - $1250. That's $6400 in today's money.

I bought my first Hobie 16 (new) in 1983 - $3400.
That's $7830 in today's money.

I forget what I paid for my second 16 - it was an '89 nationals boat, so it was essentially used.

I bought my third Hobie 16 (new) in 1998 - $6345
That's $8920 in today's money.

My current 16, bought new in 2007 was $7545
That's $8350 in today's money. (Rob Jerry cut me a deal.)

So a brand-new 16 costing $10K in 2012 is not that much different than ones sold a long time ago on an inflation adjusted basis. And the new ones today are a lot better than the new ones in the '70s and 80's.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:17 PM

I think the biggest factor is that demand has fallen. Not nearly as many boats selling. Of the boats that are selling the market share is split between about 7 companies. I think if you could guarentee a sale of 100 boats to a manufacturer you could get them at a really good price.

It's tooling and startup costs for each new design. The designs change every 3 years or so for all the companies.

We asked for this moving away from one design. I saw this coming and it's here. I actually thought it would be worse but the F18 class has done a good job of controlling costs.

Posted By: kyle robberts

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:32 PM

need to get a single wave hull down from Pt Pleasent N.J. to central Fla will pay fair price
Thanks Kyle
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by TheManShed
... his ferrari 308 does...

Italian trash... besides, I only steal Porsches.
---Charlie Sheen, No Man's Land
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by F18_VB
I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).


I'll contend rig design (sails+mast), running rigging layout and platform reliability are the keys to winning a regatta from a boat standpoint. The crew makes the largest difference, and the top crews are out practicing every day. Just because you buy the 2011 World Champ Boat (C2 btw) doesn't mean you are going to win. A lot of hype has gone into the whole "new hull shape" every 2-3 years deal. We haven't seen the manufacturers testing, and I'm sure some changes result in real performance improvements (beam placement for example), but I suspect a Wildcat rig, sails and foils on the Tiger would be very competitive with the new boat (just one example).

The Infusion hasn't changed in several years, save for the advent of updated sails and the Mk. 2 extreme dagger boards.

Sure, new boat prices are up to pay for some of these developments. Boat prices aren't going down anytime soon, raw material costs are up and shipping costs are up, partly due to the increased price of petroleum based products. If you are complaining about new boat prices, there are still plenty of F-18's on the market in the $10K range, that in conjunction with new sails are still competitive boats. The Hobie 16 is a great boat but few things in life beat a 22+ kt sustained downwind spinnaker run.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 04:03 PM

You know I just realized what is great about this forum?

It is the only place where somebody in whole World really cares and listens when you complain about how much Sailing costs.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.


My last H16 was laid up in Australia. 2006 model.


Originally Posted by mbounds
And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as "beginner boats", "pitchpole machines" and look down your noses because they aren't "high tech".


ummm, I think everyone started on a H16, so yeah, I'd say beginner boat. And it is a pitchpole machine. How many H16's can dip the tack of the jib into the water, and pull out of it?

[Linked Image]



Originally Posted by mbounds
You're "high-teching" yourself into a very limited existence.


Tru dat!


I don't have anything against the H16, but the H16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.






(edit)- You guys are forgetting another factor, the US dollar is frickin' worthless right now compared to the Euro, (Wild-Cat, NACRA, Cirrus, etc), and the Australian Dollar is coming on hard affecting the AHPC Prices. When I bought my first Viper it was ~$.70 to the US dollar, right now its $1.03US to the Australian Dollar. The boats have not gone up 30% in price.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 04:13 PM

basic economics of supply and demand. That being said, I can't imagine the profit margins are substantial due to all of the reasons posted.

Who said Shiny-itis was cheap?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it again.

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


I could keep going but I was getting bored.
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 05:47 PM

Yes I agree that it is to a large part the # of boats being sold and also inflation. REAL inflation is a lot more than the official story. The long daggers really hurt the class IMHO.. A lot of these boats are going to cottagers/occasional racers and the thought of replacing daggers @ $1500 each (give or take) is really a turn off.

The Euro guys are driving the market now and I think the market is different over there..more high tech and less casual sailing.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 05:47 PM

You're probably right Dave. I'm not that way I don't think. I sail F16 because of a lack of other viable options. Nothing else fits the bill.

Had I won the mega millions a few weeks ago I'd have someone working on a 20' singlehander with a wing, a spinnaker, some sort of lifting board, and very little weight.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by F18_VB
I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).


My bet is a Cirrus R will win and it will probably be Orange. Maybe after the Worlds there will be some nice New/Used boats available. My understanding is there is at least one of the newer designed boats up for a new hulls to follow the Cirrus R in the fat and flat bottom.
Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 06:06 PM

Think F-18's are expensive?

How about a $15 million, 140-foot trimaran just launched.
Build of Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, and Foam in China non-the-less.
That is only $107,142.86 per foot

Adastra Super Yacht

.john-shuttleworth
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 08:01 PM

Well since I started this I will share where we ended up. My new F-18 is a 2007 Tiger with custom sails. At my skill level I just can't justify another $20,000 so I'll be staying crazy on 5150.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/19/12 09:04 PM

+1

no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.
Posted By: C2 Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by orphan
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).


Oh FFS! Mid 80's was near 30 years ago! As CEO/General manager/President or whatever you call it in your part of the world of several businesses, one industry I wouldn't want to be in over the last 5 years is boat building. Save a few long established OD classes such as H16 it'd be a very hard gig. Let alone on a development class such as F18 where one month you have the fastest mousetrap only to be the trash next.

For me, the cost of R&D is very much under estimated. The number of boats it's amortised over, even if you are on a winner is really quite low, especially when you take into account the ongoing costs such as sail and foil development over the lifetime of a hull.

Of course it's not a total explanation of costs but the business of selling boats these days would be a hard gig IMO.

Tiger(C2)Mike
Posted By: C2 Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it again.

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


I could keep going but I was getting bored.


hahahaha funny but oh so true.

Tiger(C2)Mike
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 12:39 PM

Parts required to build an A-cat mast from bare tube..

Carbon ISO plate base - clearcoated
1
$225.00
$225.00
4 cleat with rotation control arm and over rotation ears
G-10 insert
1
$21.00
$21.00
mast base insert
Mast step cone w/nut
1
$60.00
$60.00
Mast step hinge - upper
1
$27.00
$27.00
RF5101 V-Cleat
1
$5.00
$5.00
downhaul preset
474 Micro Cam Cleats w/xtrm FL
5
$33.00
$165.00
downhaul & diamond control & coarse rotation
Cam cleat spacers
4
$7.00
$28.00
align cam cleats with exit boxes
RF20711HL exit blocks
4
$27.00
$108.00
control line entry
302 wire exit block
2
$34.00
$68.00
control line exit
408 16mm triple
2
$32.00
$64.00
control line purchase
406 16mm double
2
$22.00
$44.00
control line purchase
404 16mm Single
2
$10.00
$20.00
diamond control & coarse rotation purchase
R2934 bullseye
1
$6.25
$6.25
coarse rotation
RF614 D-shackle
1
$5.00
$5.00
404 attach to diamond control arm
RF634 D-shackle
1
$4.00
$4.00
Trapeze attachment
RF-635 D-shackle
1
$6.00
$6.00
stay attachment
T-ball Dual shackle Gibb fitting
1
$70.00
$70.00
T-ball Gibb fitting attachment
350 Cheek Block
1
$11.00
$11.00
downhaul secondary turning
348 29mm Carbo Single
3
$10.00
$30.00
downhaul secondary & coarse rotation
RF1315 Black ball
1
$2.00
$2.00
downhaul tack attachment
Rigging pin - 2.5"
2
$4.00
$8.00
for internal block hangers
internal block hanger
2
$29.00
$58.00
DH & diamond control internals
RF27 backing strap
2
$4.00
$8.00
to reinforce control arm pivot
1/4" x 4" ss bolt, sleeve & nut & derin/teflon spacers
1
$10.00
$10.00
control arm pivot
Anodized Aluminum Diamond Lever Arm
1
$95.00
$95.00
Diamond Wires 6100mm (pr)
1
$140.00
$140.00
2.5mm HS with unfinished bottom ends
Closed body turnbuckles JH03113
2
$25.00
$50.00
for bottom end of diamond wires
Selden Spreaders - 450 mm - w/thumb adj. (pr)
1
$190.00
$190.00
Selden
Selden Front spreader bracket
1
$25.00
$25.00
Rear spreader bracket
2
$25.00
$50.00
Mast head sail hook
1
$60.00
$60.00
proper fit for Hall tube.
4mm dbl braid - blue - (Robline Dinghy Control)
28
$0.90
$25.20
diamond control primary (25) & DH clew blocks (3)
3mm dyneema single braid - blue (Robline)
5
$0.40
$2.00
diamond control secondary
5mm single braid - red (Robline Racing Sheet)
50
$0.80
$40.00
downhaul primary
4mm dbl braid -red (Robline Dinghy Control)
8
$0.50
$4.00
downhaul secondary
4mm dbl braid - yellow (Robline Dinghy Control)
5
$0.90
$4.50
coarse rotation
Total
$1,739
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 01:28 PM

Hey, for $7,000 less than a new F18, you can have one of these, and guess what?

Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)

$13,000 ready to fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lhz0JwxkQA

So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!

http://fly103.com/

Posted By: TheManShed

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
+1

no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.


Ha too funny but sadly enough true for many or by my XXL size. But you got to love it.
All said and done the beauty and awesomeness of a F18, skippered by the best and touch of the luck, around the marks is spectacular. I remember thinking that about most new designs as they came out starting with the NACRA 5.2. I keep on saying they can’t push cat design much further and over the years I’m always surprised.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 02:07 PM

Human lawn dart...yikes!
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Hey, for $7,000 less than a new F18, you can have one of these, and guess what?

Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)

$13,000 ready to fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lhz0JwxkQA

So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!

http://fly103.com/



Yes, because when I buy an airplane, cheap is on the top of my list. eek
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 08:47 PM

All my copilots are chipping in to buy me one of those, such nice guys they all are!

Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/20/12 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.

At $400K they should come with a helium balloon that would gently deposit you back on Mother Earth. wink
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.


$400K for a Cirrus SR22 - wowch!!!

Originally Posted by Timbo
All my copilots are chipping in to buy me one of those, such nice guys they all are!

Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!


Come on out to CMA... we have a flying circus of these things...

I swear one of these days Bob Dylan's G5 is going to hit one
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 01:23 PM

KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.

We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!

http://lightsportaircraftpilot.com/kolb_flyer_ultralight/images/flyer/kolbflyer.JPG
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.

At $400K they should come with a helium balloon that would gently deposit you back on Mother Earth. wink


The airplane I fly at work costs $262 Million, holds 269 passengers and 15 crew, yet NO parachutes!

Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
The airplane I fly at work costs $262 Million, holds 269 passengers and 15 crew, yet NO parachutes!

The air, like the sea, is a harsh mistress but even more so.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo

The airplane I fly at work costs $262 Million, holds 269 passengers and 15 crew, yet NO parachutes!

I came across this article the other day, its about an inventions conference and one of the inventions is a parachute system for airplanes:
[url=]http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...s-franc/2012/04/18/gIQAjELyPT_story.html[/url]

Do you think would work?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Timbo

The airplane I fly at work costs $262 Million, holds 269 passengers and 15 crew, yet NO parachutes!

I came across this article the other day, its about an inventions conference and one of the inventions is a parachute system for airplanes:
[url=]http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...s-franc/2012/04/18/gIQAjELyPT_story.html[/url]

Do you think would work?


That's a joke, right? It would take a MUCH larger parachute to bring down a heavy jet, softly enough for anyone to live.

And unless the airplane was in a deep stall when the chute was deployed (like that Air France A330 over the Atlantic) if the chute was deployed at anything over about 150kts, (and that's very slow for a passenger jet) it would snap the lanyards holding it to the jet, or damage the jet. But if it didn't snap the lanyards, it would give everyone inside the jet a broken neck, when they suddenly went from 450 to 100 kts. The Air France guys could have used a tail drouge to get their nose pointed down.

In the Fighter Community (the pussy pilots, with ejection seats!) they call it "Opening Shock", when the parchute opens and you rapidly slow down. But if you punch out above about 500 kts., you are going to die of flail injuries anyway, but if you live through the ejection, you are supposed to wait until you slow down in the free fall, to about 150 to open your chute, or you'll never father another child!

Here's some ejection seat test vids. but they are not going very fast, less than 100mph. Now, imagine the opening shock at at say, 300.

No, they are not real pilots, it's 'crash test dummies' hard at work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgcPhl1UIhA


I'm having trouble imagining under what circumstances you would need a parachute on a large jet. About the worst thing that can happen to you is have a motor blow up on takeoff, you are heavy, slow, you just left the runway behind you and now...KaBam!

Like that Delta 757 coming out of JFK a couple days ago, or Sully and his landing on the Hudson, or these guys:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47133601/ns/travel-news/

But that's why they started putting more than one motor on airliners, a long time ago, right? Redundancey = safety.

So...under what scenario would a jet need to pop a parachute? Even Sully was able to glide to a safe landing.

If it were a realistic option, and do-able, I'm sure the Military would already be doing it.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/22/12 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.

We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!

http://lightsportaircraftpilot.com/kolb_flyer_ultralight/images/flyer/kolbflyer.JPG


Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria

Luv that ole Bell Helmet...

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Timbo
KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.

We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!

http://lightsportaircraftpilot.com/kolb_flyer_ultralight/images/flyer/kolbflyer.JPG


Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria

Luv that ole Bell Helmet...



You got a Citabria?? I love flying the tailwheels!
Or I should say, Landing the tailwheels, in a good crosswind of course! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlsNDtKZqhk

Same thing, only different, in my Day Job, but much more fun in a tailwheeel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvypv_twqfY&feature=related
Posted By: arbo06

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 01:14 AM

I am not sure where to jump into this conversation butttttt,
The cost of construction does not normally take into acount the externalities. Cheap labor overseas, no healthcare for the workers, exposure to harmfull/fatal chemicals and conditions, pollution in the form of unregulated waste disposal. This is why we send production to emerging countries, the governments are so corrupt that they have no concern for the environment or the health, wellfare and future of their citizens, but only for their own finacial interest.
We have been living on cheap oil for way too long.... Things must change. F-18 cost way more than you think when you consider all of the impact costs that it takes to produce one.
Escuse the typos por favor

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 06:15 AM

I do think that cats have gotten more expensive over the years but you also get a lot more boat than a few years ago, and they are more race ready as well.
Someone brought up the price of a Tiger, but remember how much you would have to spend out of the box to make it race ready? €2000+
Remember that yellow and black rope/mainsheet they used to be shipped with?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 10:21 AM

And with the introduction of the Hobie Wildcat F18, I'm guessing they (Hobie) are admitting the Tiger is no longer 'fast enough', so a new (faster) hull design was needed, which only adds to the cost.
Posted By: dartfast

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 02:35 PM

Timbo,
John Fondrk is selling his Seawind 300C. Would be perfect for your backyard and water. He is also selling his Cessna 150 that is in good condition. They are both at Clearwater Airprot. You may not understand this but he got married and his wife and daughter are in to horses which distracts enough from his N-20 sailing.

Terry Dart 18
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Timbo
KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.

We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!

http://lightsportaircraftpilot.com/kolb_flyer_ultralight/images/flyer/kolbflyer.JPG


Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria

Luv that ole Bell Helmet...



You got a Citabria?? I love flying the tailwheels!
Or I should say, Landing the tailwheels, in a good crosswind of course! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlsNDtKZqhk

Same thing, only different, in my Day Job, but much more fun in a tailwheeel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvypv_twqfY&feature=related


No, I rent one....

Doing the Emergency Maneuver / Unusual Attitude / Aerobatic training at Santa Paula Airport with Rich Stowell.

Its a blast!!!!

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by dartfast
Timbo,
John Fondrk is selling his Seawind 300C. Would be perfect for your backyard and water. He is also selling his Cessna 150 that is in good condition. They are both at Clearwater Airprot. You may not understand this but he got married and his wife and daughter are in to horses which distracts enough from his N-20 sailing.

Terry Dart 18


Wow, that poor bast...! I feel his pain! I hope he can keep his Boat!

The only thing I have found that's twice as expensive as boats AND airplanes, combined, are Horses! Race cars might be close, only because you have to buy new tires all the time, and rebuild the motor, but feeding a bunch of horses twice a day, plus their shoes, shots, vet bills when they get a boo-boo, etc. they truly are the gift that keeps on taking. And that's if you NEVER go to a show. Add a thousand dollars a pop, if you go to shows! Oh, and you'll need a truck and big trailer to go to a show, so add that in!

When my wife starts complaining about the horses, and the amount of work, I just point to my boat in the back yard and say, "See that boat? I didn't have to feed it today, or shovel it's poop, or put another blanket on it because it's going to be cold tonight, and guess what? It don't care, if I don't care, it never cops an attitude or tries to kick me when I'm 'feeding' it."

Airplanes are the same, ie. they don't care, but the hanger fees are high ($300/mo. or more), and then you have to put gass in them, which is getting outrageous, over $5.00 a gallon, plus the insurance, and the annual maintenance, etc. is expensive, unless you do it yourself (you'll need a license to do it) but it's no where near what it costs to own/show horses!

Tell John he can put his airplane in my backyard, I promise to feed it and shovel it's poop, every day!

But until all of our 6 horses drop dead, I won't be able to buy his airplane.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Timbo
KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.

We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!

http://lightsportaircraftpilot.com/kolb_flyer_ultralight/images/flyer/kolbflyer.JPG


Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria

Luv that ole Bell Helmet...



You got a Citabria?? I love flying the tailwheels!
Or I should say, Landing the tailwheels, in a good crosswind of course! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlsNDtKZqhk

Same thing, only different, in my Day Job, but much more fun in a tailwheeel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvypv_twqfY&feature=related


No, I rent one....

Doing the Emergency Maneuver / Unusual Attitude / Aerobatic training at Santa Paula Airport with Rich Stowell.

Its a blast!!!!




Yes, Acro is great fun! As a kid I always wanted to build a Pitts, and I still may get to it, some day. I was renting a Pitts S2B in Miami, when I was single! The IAC holds contests here in Sebring twice a year, I usually go out to watch, see what new stuff the Unlimited guys have come up with. Some of the stuff they do is pretty wild. Check out their web site, http://www.iac.org/ You can compete at the Basic level in the Citabria. Loop, roll, spin, that's about all there is to it in the Basic category. Have fun!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 06:20 PM

Six horses? Are f*cking retarded Timbo? That's burning PILES of money.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 06:21 PM

horses suck. the ultimate depreciating asset
and quit talking about planes
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Six horses? Are f*cking retarded Timbo? That's burning PILES of money.


Yes, Yes, and Yes.

That's why I'm still racing with a 5 year old boat and mainsail...oh, and still kicking your butt.

;^)
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Six horses? Are f*cking retarded Timbo? That's burning PILES of money.


Yes, Yes, and Yes.

That's why I'm still racing with a 5 year old boat and mainsail...oh, and still kicking your butt.

;^)


Oh snap! Damn K2, you gonna let him get away with that?!?!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2

Oh snap!


This from a 40 year old white guy! Oh wait, your spin is pink, carry on.
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by ksurfer2

Oh snap!


This from a 40 year old white guy! Oh wait, your spin is pink, carry on.


It's Beth's!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2

It's Beth's!


Okay, that made me chuckle. See you this weekend rock star.
Posted By: orphan

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 08:18 PM

You still don't understand. It's ALL Beth's.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 08:41 PM

Pay attention all you single guys, and...

"You're single? Remember this face!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1GjyrQiSRs
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Six horses? Are f*cking retarded Timbo? That's burning PILES of money.


Yes, Yes, and Yes.

That's why I'm still racing with a 5 year old boat and mainsail...oh, and still kicking your butt.

;^)


Oh snap! Damn K2, you gonna let him get away with that?!?!


I guess so.... But what I lack in skill I make up for in new-ness of boat.

*sigh*
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 09:53 PM

"It is better to Look Good, than to actually Be Good!"

And as Fernando says, "You Look Marvelous!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygs-4GfqPcM

;^)
Posted By: PTP

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 10:45 PM

A lot of the time it is better to look competent than to be competent. Of course one should be both... But if ya had to choose...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/23/12 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Six horses? Are f*cking retarded Timbo? That's burning PILES of money.


Yes, Yes, and Yes.

That's why I'm still racing with a 5 year old boat and mainsail...oh, and still kicking your butt.

;^)


Oh snap! Damn K2, you gonna let him get away with that?!?!


I guess so.... But what I lack in skill I make up for in new-ness of boat.

*sigh*


PATHETIC AND WEAK!!!
Ain't you learnin' anything from Uncle Tawd and Grandma Ding?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/24/12 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Grandma Ding?


How very hurtful Todd, you know how delicate I am.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/24/12 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Grandma Ding?


How very hurtful Todd, you know how delicate I am.


I know, all that osteoporosis and stuff.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/24/12 06:02 PM

Menopause has been hard on him
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/24/12 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Menopause has been hard on him


You have no idea!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/25/12 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Menopause has been hard on him


Man-o-pause. Geeze get spellcheck for pete's sake. It's my only card I have left to get a boat (vs. a sportscar and fake-boob twenty-something)

resistance is futile.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? - 04/29/12 06:00 PM

Hey! I got nuttin' to do with that.
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