When should the RC pull the plug

The MHC is getting ready to submit a set of gear requirements to the Safety at Sea Committee of US Sailing. This would set a standard for Yacht Clubs to reference when giving beach cats a start.

The other half the equation is the PRO and the OA. when should they pull the plug.

Rick White recounts this event.


I have been on both sides of this issue....as a competitor and as the OA.....

Personally, I think you have to rethink the problem each and every time.... After things have inverted... you don't want to have half assed this one.

When and Who should pull the plug?

The RC should pull the plug when they do not feel it is safe for them, their mark boats, chase boast, etc to be on the water. The decision to sail/not sail falls squarely on the shoulders of the competitors!

To date, is anyone aware of a case where a club/OA has been successfully sued by a competitor due to damage/injury/death that had occurred during a race in "sporty" conditions.

That will occur immediately upon USS, the federally mandated sailing monopoly, establishing a protocol.

Once that protocol is established the Coasties will charge you a ****-ton of money to rescue you. And rightly so.

Bingo, Karl and Pete nailed it!

Mark what did Rick do to piss you off so bad!

My point is that politics has an interest in sailors whether sailors are interested or not.

If you want input into the "federally mandated sailing monopoloy" and the protocols they will be establishing to govern you, join USS and demand open popular elections.

Good standard answer.... But insurance and legal liability are not the cutting issue here.

We don't and can't sweep the beachcat fleet in a distance race. Often, the OA often has no one on the water and so the issue for the OA jumps to a more difficult level of decision.

So... we have two kinds of races... Steeplechase and Great Texas where the OA and sailors can make a decision each day of the race and the impact is just on cat sailors.
VS
In something like the MKL or the Chesapeake Race to Oxford with many monohull boats which meet PHRF safety regulations for the type of racing ....a monohull competitor would have had to drop out to rescue the Hobie 16 had they discovered the situation. There is no question for the monohull, they will render assistance... But

The OA does not have to accept entries from Beach Cats....so IMO... we need to think about how WE manage the issue when the safety standards are so different between beachcats and the rest of the fleet.

When I set up the big races with monohulls... I delivered the message that the big monoslugs are NOT our safety backup plan!
This was to both the OA and the Beach cat racers.

Beachcats are included in these big PHRF races because I leveraged a request from the J22 fleet to participate in the race. J22's do not meet the PHRF safety standard and so they also needed a waiver.... In the end... the J22 fleet decided against racing but we have had a great run of races.

So far, it has been working.... just a few requests for redress for the monohulls bailing out a cat sailor or two.

It would be nearly impossible to create a standard that could be applied to cancel a race. Wind speed, wave height, air temperature, water tempurature, current, etc. all play a factor. How do you create a universal standard? 20 knots in Boca Ciega Bay (protected flat water bay in Florida) in june is probably far different conditions than 20 knots in Hyannis (open ocean in the north east) in November!

https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...mp;ved=0CF8QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=653

Help yourselves.

I agree. It is a difficult issue.
The time to form your current position is now... not after the FUBAR.

I think guidelines are appropriate here... Standards are too much.

The standards are for GEAR... The idea is that the OA can just require at a minimum the Safety at Sea gear list. It solves the problem... of who made the YC the safety guru of beach cat racing.
US Sailing > Class rules > YC rules > your idiocyncratic opinion on "safe"

If you want to know what happens when you DON"T think about this stuff...

See the fall out from the SSA junior disaster.
See the fallout from the Chi to Mac disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the Farloones disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the N2E disaster.

Oh... and it matters because the stand alone insurance hit for the OA running distance races is now up ~1000 bucks or so.... see impact on Islander Reef run/ex Hogsbreath

I think that ultimately it is the sailor's responsibility to go out, unless it is really extreme (35+ kts).
Some insurance companies have a clause with a maximum wind limit as well, worth checking before racing.

My position: The decision to pull the plug is at the discretion of the OA.

You've been given an opinion by several people and you clearly don't agree with it. Do what you're going to do Mark.

I think Mark is the messenger here not the decision maker.

No... more then messenger.

I made the initial proposal on gear standards to move this issue. Bert Rice and Randy Smyth have a draft that is being worked on by the MHC's other member who is on the Safety at Sea Committee.

Gear is just part of the debate.

So.. if the Miami to Key Largo guys at Miami Yacht club decide to pull the plug on the beachcat start but allow the rest of the fleet to race... you are OK with that?? ....

Or do you think there should be some consensus on guidelines, standards, rules, etc.

Did I hear my name mentioned? Add Bob Hodges and Jon Farrar as members of the US Sailing Multihull Council Safety Committee.

http://www.gya.org/MultiHull/Multihull.htm takes one to the Gulf Yachting Association Multihull Council web site.

Forgive the old news - I'll get to it...just finished updating my SOARS for the year.

The Safety Recommendations Mark referred to were originaly developed by the GYA MHC. They are available to sailors for review. Your input to the MHC Safety Committee is welcomed. We always pay attention to forehanded measures we might include.

Contact me off forum,

Bert Rice, MHC Safety Committee Chair

There is a placeholder on the May 30 MHC meeting agenda for a discussion on the safety committee report. However, despite numerous requests, I have not received the final draft so I can post it for folks to review prior to the meeting. If that does not happen, don't expect a vote to approve.

Also, we should be acting proactively here, not reactively. We don't need to wait for a bad event and the Coast Guard or US Sailing to require action (see recent activity in California).

The MHC should have a nimble, active safety committee that looks at stuff like the "cool video" and finds ways to communicate useful recommendations to the cat sailors. Note, I said useful recommendations, not onerous requirements.

This is simply the right thing to do, and I'd love to have volunteers come forward to help.

Mike

I volunteer!

You were provided the recommendations for the AGM in October, but I'll re-send them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNdz2RTyTqg&t=2m26s

It's not about me, it's the MHC that has to vote to approve.

At the autumn meeting, we were told that it was an unfinished version, so no vote was taken.

Obviously, all of our attention over the winter has been on the Alter Cup, so I can understand why this slipped.

Mike

Just so that everyone knows what this is all about..... This document is only about safety gear and equipment and has to go Safety at Sea and for that group to consider it and publish this in the Safety guidelines.

We are looking for that good housekeeping seal of approval on equipment so that YC and other OA's can defer to a group of "experts" for the NOR.

We have gotten the right expert opinion to write it... So we should be able to move the ball.

The next step is for the MHC committee to consider forming a committee of PRO's and OA's that run the distance races and evaluate guidelines for these events.

When the sailing community is evaluating what happened in 6 deaths. IMO, you need to take a fresh look at your own niche of the sport... Before the crisis.

I suspect these guidelines for PROs and OAs would be published by the MHC and not look for sanction by any other US Sailing committee.

The committee could also consider the issues and make no recommendations. The strength of the report rests on the experience and judgment of those people on the committee.

Now I starting to agree with Karl from the other thread. If your boat is rated to handle the wind and wave conditions -- and forecasts -- and you are geared up for the conditions, then no problem. Accidents may still happen.

I know from the Hobie forum Karl is good with rigging and gear. Sailing in conditions that were to the limit of his boat might get extreme, but the gear and rigging is there to rely on. But if someone is not rigged up or geared up for the conditions, then that's more the problem. Not sure what you are asking here, on this forum?

Well, the document, as written, basically reinforces JJ's point. It lists some gear and equipement that would be good to have aboard, and reiterates that the sailors are ultimately responsible for putting themselves in harms way, but basically says nothing about the OA role.

My understanding is that this committee (and charter to write this document) came about specifically at the request of yacht clubs that were being asked to potentially host cat/tri regattas for the first time.

I don't see a whole lot in this draft that would help such a club decide what their responsibilites are (in terms of wind/wave guidelines, being rescue-capable, etc.).

Mike

Since my spring cold is keeping me out of the boatyard, I'll carry on with this discussion.

As a race officer, trained by many talented ROs, I will run the race (under common sense) until the Chief Judge or USCG shuts it down. We have a club on our bay that is famous for cancelling a race on the day before, only to have great weather on race day. They also have displayed the propensity to grab high entry fees and remain at the bar if the weather is 'uncomfortable' for them. Their credibility and attendance is suffering.

There will probably never be an ISAF check off list for ROs to apply in threatening or angry weather, so do not look for a guide; use common sense and trust the talent of your Race Comm and your racing sailors. Be prepared with adequate safety boats with jumpers when hosting cats or the modern sporties w/out auxiliary power.

If there is an ISAF 'safety guide for race management' I have never seen it, but I love enlightenment.

The problem isn't with those of us who know these boats and sailors (and know what we're doing), it's for the clubs and ROs that are new to cats. You'd be amazed how many very senior ROs have never run a cat regatta before.

This isn't about substituting for common sense, it's helping them to help us where appropriate.

Mike

I have been hoping for an opportunity to do some training. Maybe this is a niche the MHC could work into via proper channels. Let me get with Tim Rumptz (Our Area RO) and see if there is a trail. I brought this up at the Miami OCR last year.

We are putting together a day long workshop in our area with focus on scoring software, rules, and best management practices (OTW style). I'll hand off our curriculumn to you when we complete the doc.

The current USSA training seminars in the GYA have turned into 'certification factories' w/out proper on the water training.

A scary moment is in 15+knts, when your dear friend has been blown over on a F16 SH, and one (MSO) is SH on a 16 ft center console. I got him back on the boat and help right it. There are not that many non - cat sailors who would know what to do.

Ask Randy about the USCG sometime when you meet him:) Boats are expendable to those guys.

Why don't you guys work up ideas for skills and practices we might include? I'll get with Steve Green and see what the pros out west are doing. ML - contact Mark Hansen. Maybe we could build a package for a NA training tour USSA would sign off on, but I am sure before we could take action, the bureacracy would claim its share of time, money, and control.

Food for thought...I vowed after that event I will never SH mark set ops again uless we are sailing off the sandbar near PYC with optis:).

Some good thoughts here, Bert. Some quick comments:

It is well known that US Sailing does a great job at standardizing RO training, but falls flat when it comes to mark boat and safety boat training. The thought process has always been that the ROs would train their mark boat operators, but it has become fairly obvious that this lacks standardization that could benefit everyone.

We are working on that as we speak, through the Race Management office. There is a model program in development in Newport, and it includes on-water operations.

This is intended to be a good thing, and is coming from the bottom up, so the conspiracy theorists need to give it a rest.

I only have one polite word for a single-handed mark boat: Useless. I have plenty of other words that I won't post here...

USCG is not there for your boat. Ask me how I know...

--------------

All: The safety committee report is now in the hands of the Area Reps, and the comment period is open.

Contact your Area Rep to get a copy and/or provide feedback, we would like to be able to approve this on May 30.

One option would be to approve this document now, and take some additional time to handle the OA recommendations as a separate document, under a new Ad Hoc committee.

Mike

So that would make sense, then, that a top-tier event might proceed in conditions that a local regatta would not (i.e. wind/sea conditions). It could be argued that top sailors and their equipment can handle conditions that might cause a lot of accidents in a fleet of average or new sailors with boats which aren't in top shape.

Of course, the rudimentary "no-go" conditions:

- small craft advisory in effect (22-33 kts sustained / 6-7 Beaufort)
- lightning
- surf in excess of 1.5 meters
- any tornado/hurricane/microburst warning
- any race that my brother is sailing

Exactly.

The main value of guidelines and a compilation of best practices is for the OA, PRO and the racers to take a careful look at the collective wisdom in preparation of the race day.

at that point.... to use JJs words...


There are three pieces to this situation

Ignorance
Stupidity
Accidents

IMO, we can do something about Ignorance.

Our local club has a race every year the Frenchy’s Rum Run… This goes out to Anacapa Island and back.. This is an easy race that is good “tune up” for the Island Series that starts a few weeks later. It is usably pretty benign weather wise and can be a screaming beam reach on the way back when the wind starts to rip up little in the afternoon.

A few years back we had a freak weather system come through the evening before the race with the weather station at the destination mark showing 40 plus mile winds… This is one of the tools we use to determine the winds:

http://www.sccoos.org/data/coamps/analyses/searange/analysis.html

We (Race Committee) decided to alter the race course to stay close to shore even with the weather reporting the winds to calm down later in the day…. It may have not been the best decision, but it was the prudent one as the safety of the racers came first. Sometimes you have to make the smart call no matter how much this is going to piss some people off.. In this case it turned out 99% the participants were very happy with the alternate course. We had some great wind for all points of sail, and a good time was had by all.

Needless to say, there was one participant that was very vocal of his displeasure on our decision to which we offered them a refund on the entry fee. Funny thing about this is to this day that one sailor that was not happy with our decision has noted this other forums as his worse day of sailing and it was our fault.

Personally, I have never had a bad day of sailing!!! Guess some folks need to stop listing to the voice in their head!

Excellent OA report!!

Did you consider having the sailors vote on the change?

No we didn't... Our race committee has some very experienced sailors for these waters with one of them being licensed captain for some BIG boats. When they note that is pretty gnarly to the point to where they would stay on shore and sit this one out you need to take that advice to heart..

In hindsight that may have been a good way to go, having the sailors vote on it. But, as my dad use to say, "he is too stupid to know any better" and I don't know what the experience levels is on the group as a whole. Therefore the advice from whose experience levels we know is going to hold more weight on the decision..

+1

Individuals are smart... crowds are stupid

Keep the ideas coming, I'm off to Madcatter.

Better yet, grab a Wave and head up there and talk to me about all of this in person!

Mike

I have seen a Coomodore take over during an FT 10 M championship and really turned the event into a real mess. He held voting at the skippers' meeting and then on the water.

By the time all was said and done the fleet raced sans spins in the 15 knt zone then went with spins for the race with new pressure at 20 knts. OOPs...Stick with the NoR and SIs. Let the sailors follow the rules.

This was truly a very unprofessional manner of "Yacht Clubing" the fleet of sailors from states away.

The fleet captain became incapacitated and rendered the mark boat he was on useless. I had to manage the course with my crew on my Proline 20. They stayed anchored behind the starting area for both races until we towed them in. The FC spent the day throwing up in front of the lovely ladies he had on his boat:)

He learned some lessons that day, but I am afraid the Commodore felt proud of getting off only two races in great sailing conditions.

letting the fleet vote is not a good idea in that circumstance. If the class is concerned about the limits, let the class specify the limits to be specified in the event documents so they are known by all - there will be MUCH less complaining that way because everyone knew what to expect coming in. Otherwise, the PRO needs to be prepared to shoulder the decision.

I think the A class uses 22 mph, and I hear their sailors refer to it often.

If you're going to try to apply a standard, there is one that is actually in use.

Don't see them communicated much. Maybe I don't look closely enough... Unless "cancel conditions" for my boat are clearly stated, it's hard to know if it's worth it to go. 22 mph sounds good. The point, however, is that you don't say you're going to do something and then pull the plug for a reason that is not communicated IN ADVANCE.

Having a second person on the chase boat is good. Having a second person who is cat sailor is better. This person will know where the chase boat needs to be possitioned to assist in righting or be able to go in the water to assist in righting the boat. I have had circumstances where that person was needed to sail the boat back to shore because the crew and skipper became incapacitated.
Safetly gear on the chase boat(besides tow lines, flags, multiple radios, fenders) should always include vest,gloves and possibly a harness(helps when righting boats).

Pete, I'm sure the boat designers could give you a ballpark "design envelope" windspeed which would be helpful if you had to pick an arbitrary windspeed as your "no-go" point.

I suspect the N20 is around 20 knots (sustained), the F18 and F16 maybe 23-24?
Can you sail successfully in higher than design limits? Sure.

Should you? Possibly (depending on other factors - crew, course, support fleet, etc).

Beyond design conditions, it would be expected that the fleet would suffer greater chance of equipment breakdown, possibly endangering crews and officials. It is at this point that the PRO should step in and weigh the potential risk vs. the safety/support capability available.

And to echo prior posts, the guidelines the PRO will be using for determining when to race should be made available in advance to all participants

Before several of the Alter Cups I worked with, I made a point to get the acceptable recommended wind range to safely sail the particular boat from the manufacturer. These guidelines were then given to the PRO. Concrete data makes decisions easy.

I've always heard that the A-cat class limit is 22 but I don't know that I've seen that documented anywhere. I do know that I would agree with that being the upper limit on an a-cat. It just gets silly after that.

Regarding the F18 and Nacra 20, though, I think 24 or 25 is still "raceable"....but sea state will play into how "raceable" the course is at those levels. My rule of thumb is that if you can reasonably control the risk of capsize and it's still a matter of your skill level and choosing how hard to push for speed, it's raceable. For instance, at 30, you can no longer control the risk of capsize on a 20 and it's only a matter of "when"...at 24-25, you can still usually avoid capsize unless you cross that line and push a little too hard.

True Jake, but what is the design windspeed of the N20? Anyone care to venture a guess?

But to second your opinion, the sea state and course outline have to be factored in. If it's a sheltered course with little if any sea/swell, then you could very well race at or slightly above design windspeed.

If your race venue is unprotected, your participants are underexperienced, and the safety fleet would have difficulties, then the PRO should consider pulling the plug even if the windspeed weren't over design limits.

I'm sure we've all been to one or more buoy races where the safety boats had a hard time keeping up with the flips and other carnage on the course...

Agreed Jake. Every boat is different. I have a different standard in a lake than in open ocean.

The decision has to rest with the PRO. He can take all the input he wants but ultimately it has to be his decision. PRO's that make poor decisions don't last very long.

Get an experienced PRO and it makes it work.

Wouldn't it be nice to give the PRO defendable, objective data to back up their decision?

Exactly the point... I think that getting this data and some guidelines for PRO's of distance races in particular is a good job for the MHC to make happen.

A Cat upper limit is 22 knots this was put in place in 1988.

Fred Smith
A Cat CAN31

out of curiosity, where is that documented? I hear that all the time but have never seen it anywhere.

I hear a lot of talk about how there are lots of other factors other than wind strength that must be considered, but all the other factors mentioned so far seem pretty fixed. Everybody knows well in advance if the race is going to be in protected waters or open ocean, the course outline is a known value too as are the design limits of the boats (at least this can be found.) The only variable that isn't known until day of race seems to be the wind and possibly the quality of the crews?

It seems very reasonable for the NOR to have published wind limits. As in, "given the course outline, location and number of safety boats available, boats of class X will only start if wind is between A and B knots, class Y will only start if wind is between C and D knots..."

That way the PRO *is* making the call, but he isn't waiting until day of race to do it, and everybody knows what to expect.

The RC should pull the plug if the start and marks boats can't get out or there is no possible way to run a race. If it's a distance race with no start or chase boats then it should be up to the skippers.Start the nanny state stuff and I'll GUARANTEE, you will regret it. If you're giving an inch as a stop-gap measure they're going to take a mile, either way. You just gave in until something happens to institute their own ideas.

p.s. The race Rick is talking about was my first Steeplechase, and got me addicted to distance racing and the self reliance that is needed to do it.

Sime minor points:

Per RRS, the RC runs races as directed by the OA. So, The OA has final call on when too much is too much.

Of course, per the RRS rule for abandoning, racing may be abandoned for reasons including fairness and safety. The PRO usually is the one to make this call.

In a perfect world, the PRO and OA work seamlessly together, making this a non-issue. The problems come in when the PRO has too much ego, or the OA didn't bother to procure enough resources to run a safe event.

One thing that is painfully obvious here is the lean toward A-Cat and spinnaker (read, fragile/overpowered) boat racing, in typical North American (read, light) conditions.

Go to a Hobie 16 Worlds and try to postpone because it's blowing 28, and you'll probably be shot...

Mike

Any idea on the design windspeed for an H-16?

Also, you mention it's a World level event, so hacks like me couldn't really expect to register and sail, right?

So then it would stand to reason that conditions (possibly outside the design envelope) could be "raceable" because the crews and boats are up to the challenge?

The boat was designed by a surfer, not sure how much wind factored into the equation (although, Hobie is a smart guy, and had some smart friends helping along the way, so I wouldn't rule that out).

If you're a "hack" you can absolutely register and sail, but if you don't prequalify at the NAs, you have to qualify onsite. So, you can be done sailing after two days, then enjoy the rest of your vacation in a nice tropical location.

One issue we have is that since our prevailing winds here are typically a lot less than is often seen at the locations where Worlds are held, it's tough to get good practice, even at NAs.

But, this is one of the reasons that PU would regularly run racing at NAs, even when the winds were over 30 knots and half (or more) of the fleet was ashore, or would be soon...

Mike

...or the mark boats felt like their personal safety was in danger, and told the RC to get lost.

Gate Boat: RC, RC, RC. This is Gate, we are off station due to safety concerns. {Drops radio in bilge}

RC: Gate, Gate, Gate, RC. Mumble, mumble, MUMBLE...

That's in the IACA Championship Rules for running World and Continental championships and for guidance at other championship or international events. They are on the IACA website here; http://www.mathran.nl/acat/files/CHAMPIONSHIP%20RULES.pdf
Clause 10 sets it out - upper limit 22 knots average over 15 minutes.

Yeah, there are the nannies. But there are the Crash Dummies too who are looking for a place to practice their main goal. To crash something.

What you would kind of hope is that there is something in between the two extremes. I don't see that there is much problem with what has already been established about boat limits and gear requirements or qualifications. The weak area is NOR. Look at any other major sporting event and there will be a note that says something like: "In case of bad weather..." A NOR can read "In case of winds exceeding the stated limits for your cat, the race organizers may call the race for those boats. Please keep an eye on weather forecasts. If a race is called because of excess conditions, you sail entirely at your own risk and you must make provisions for someone else to pull you out of the water." Like the Coast Guard. With a tight economy, it cost too much money to show up and have a race called for some un-communicated odd set of reasons. If guidelines are given and the risk is accepted to show up when conditions may be extreme and a race may be cancelled, then there is no one to blame but me for jumping in the car and going.

what if conditions aren't that extreme (but still bad - let's say 15+ with squalls), but the OA / PRO can't get enough support fleet out there (mechanical or staffing issues, for example).

Throw in a relatively novice fleet (weekenders and hacks like me)... what then?

Splitting hairs, I know. But sometimes the forecasts are dead wrong, and I've floated around a course many times in conditions that were nowhere near the forecast - even one posted the evening before.

I guess I'd narrow my focus on this discussion to buoy racing. I think it's pretty much agreed that the distance thing is pretty much up to the participant's discretion as there are rarely on-water support boats in the first place...

Again, everything in your list, except the weather, should be known before the NOR is written up. Therefore the only thing that needs to be mentioned in the NOR are the weather conditions that will cause the race to be canceled.

We need a new start flag..... Risk Apparent/ Race at your own Risk.

That's not a bad idea.

Small Craft Warning/Advisory (18-33 kts)

That works for me.

And then you add one more layer of responsibility ... "they should have had the flag up"..."they shouldn't have had the flag up"....and is that to assume that sailing under other conditions is NOT at your own risk?

Just leave it as it's always at your own risk (like it is already). Simple is as simple does.

+1

Seven pages and Karl's initial reply still holds up... hmmmmmm.

I keep telling people that it's not just a hat rack, but so few actually believe me.

for good reason, no doubt...

Let's hope the US Sailing response to the USCG request has the same message...

Mike