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Tradewinds venue change question

Posted By: RickWhite

Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 05:43 PM

We may not have access to Founders Park this year and consequently may have to move to the Islander, just down the street and on the Ocean Side.

We have traditionally sailed Fri-Sun, however the A-Cats Regatta does not end until Friday, and there would be an overlap that would not work.

QUESTION: Since Monday is a Holiday (ML King) would we lose boats by having it Sat thru Monday?

You can answer here or email me: rick@catsailor.com
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 05:55 PM

I would still be 'in' for racing on Monday Rick. Would we be doing any practice on Friday too, or just go out and watch the A cats?

I'll have to talk to Andi Lutz to see if he would have to get back to work on Tuesday, like he usualy does, or if he could get Tuesday off. This far out I wouldn't think it would be a problem, thanks for the early warning!
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 07:24 PM

Too bad the A-Cats won't bend any. THey do a Monday-Tues, Wed lay day, and have another event Thurs and Fri.
We asked if they could omit the layday, but they have been doing it this way for quite a while and did not want to change.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 07:39 PM

Well...on the bright side, maybe some of the A cats will hang around for the weekend and sail in the Tradewinds regatta.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 08:43 PM

I'm beginning to appreciate having Monday's off from work...it probably wouldn't affect me unless I intended to also do the A-cat week. Getting more than one consecutive week of vacation is a little tricky.

The guy that started our company once informed one of my employees (in a jesting manner that still left a little room for caution), that "if you can afford to take two weeks of vacation, that pretty much tells me that we can do without you".
Posted By: jeremyh

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 10:23 PM

I am planning on doing both the a cat events and trade winds and I have school off on monday so it shouldn't be a problem
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 11:16 PM

You might want to make sure that there is enough room for all the T.winds boats to set-up while the A's are there.Islander is going to want plenty of heads-up on what's going to need to go where.
Rick don't you think it's pretty presumptuous to expect the A's to change their schedule because your venue didn't work out?
I hope to do both this year as well.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/17/12 11:21 PM

Or maybe we can "Politic" the Founders Park admin guys into letting us stay there?

When money talks, People listen.

I know a couple guys who could go and 'talk' to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO8zb5DG_gM
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/18/12 02:38 AM

Jesus, I might have to drive farther?!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/18/12 02:45 AM

Yeah, that last 100 yards is going to kill you!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/18/12 03:35 AM

It's a long butt drive, especially by myself.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/18/12 04:36 AM

No doubt, but the Islander is right across the street from Founder's Park. I know you were joking, I mean, after you've driven 2000 miles, what's another 100 yards? Or...you could stop in Sebring and take a nap, then follow me down!
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/18/12 02:10 PM

Quote
It's a long butt drive, especially by myself.


Maybe if you weren't such an a$$hole, you'd have more friends! grin (kidding, I'd let you ride in the back of my truck anytime).
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/22/12 05:46 PM

So, no negative feedback yet?
Will plan on Tradewinds at The Islander MLK Weekend Sat-Mon
Thanks,
Rick
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/22/12 06:24 PM

We really don't have any other choice do we? Would switching the regatta to New Years weekend be doable? I imagine that's a popular weekend for the Islander but it doesn't hurt to ask, right?

Ideally I'd like to see the A cat guys have their regatta in peace, it's not their fault we got booted from Founders Park.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 11:30 AM

New Years weekend is high prime time in the Keys with premium rates on everything. Then there is a window of off-season right after NY until late January. That is why we originally chose MLK weekend.

Agree on the A Cats, but it didn't hurt to ask. As for Founders dealing with beauracrats cannot be fun.., feel sorry for Chip and Barb.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 01:57 PM

My preference is to shift the regatta one week to the right. The regatta used to be a two day event (Sat and Sun only) and was still very successful. I'll still take the time off and go sailing on Friday anyway. You could even keep Friday optional and see how it works out. I think the A cat guys would appreciate it and it will be nice to have the extra space to work with. Don't most people bug out on Sunday anyway?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 02:02 PM

The worlds in October are very likely to knock down A cat attendance for the winter regatta.... It had this effect the last time. Room might not be a problem.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 02:28 PM

Or it may have the opposite effect since the class is growing. Worlds will likely get people fired up.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The worlds in October are very likely to knock down A cat attendance for the winter regatta.... It had this effect the last time. Room might not be a problem.


I'd still like to see Tradewinds moved away from the A cat regatta assuming it doesn't overly impact attendance for Tradewinds. I'd be willing to accept a small drop in attendance to accommodate the A cat sailors, but that's just me.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 02:42 PM

Everyone seemed to like the optional 3-day event and would like to stick with it.

And possible maybe some As will even sail with us, like they used to do.

Here is the edited NOR Link: http://www.catsailor.com/Tradewinds.html
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite
Everyone seemed to like the optional 3-day event and would like to stick with it.

And possible maybe some As will even sail with us, like they used to do.

Here is the edited NOR Link: http://www.catsailor.com/Tradewinds.html


It takes about as much time to derig and rig an A cat as it does a Hobie 16, plus it on only weighs 3 pounds. They aren't coming to Tradewinds because they have to break their boat down drive it a half a mile and rerig. If you're thinking the fleet will stay and sail Tradewinds, you'd be wrong.

Besides asking them to change their schedule for us, did ask them about us being there and what their opinions are on the matter? I could be wrong but I have a feeling they aren't happy about us squatting on the tail end of their party.

You're not going to come out clean on this one Rick.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 03:53 PM

I'd have to do some thinking if its only a two day event. It costs me $1400 just in fuel to get to the Keys. It's a major expense for two days. Granted, I'm usually down there early anyway.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'd have to do some thinking if its only a two day event. It costs me $1400 just in fuel to get to the Keys. It's a major expense for two days. Granted, I'm usually down there early anyway.


Moving it to the following weekend does not keep it from being a 3 day event. It's moot anyway, Rick pulled the trigger.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 04:30 PM

**** in the making.God help us all if there is a wedding or two also. I plan on doing both so it actually makes it easier for me, not sure many others will see it that way.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 05:04 PM

I know Mike takes both boats A cat and F18 and he does the A event then we go to Tradewinds I don't think he will drive down twice and will just have to do one event. I would definitely check with the Islander about boats and the launching is limited unless it has changed since I was there last.
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 05:36 PM

Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


If you guys don't want to hear valid suggestions please stop asking.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 05:50 PM

Valid??? To the best of my knowledge, US Sailing is not a huge lobby group in Washington to have the influence you're looking for.

The key to local access is... wait for it... LOCAL involvement. Boots on the ground, attending local town meetings, etc. Find a good spot, treat it well (leave it cleaner than you found it, don't require police action for the parties, etc.), and you'll go very far.

I would definitely support a subcommittee of the MHC to be formed as a think-tank to help promote best practices.

But, this is not a problem that "someone" at US Sailing can "fix," at the end of the day it requires local effort.

It's more than a little frustrating to hear people say that they want someone to fix all of their local problems in return for just writing a check for $50.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Valid??? To the best of my knowledge, US Sailing is not a huge lobby group in Washington to have the influence you're looking for.

The key to local access is... wait for it... LOCAL involvement. Boots on the ground, attending local town meetings, etc. Find a good spot, treat it well (leave it cleaner than you found it, don't require police action for the parties, etc.), and you'll go very far.

I would definitely support a subcommittee of the MHC to be formed as a think-tank to help promote best practices.

But, this is not a problem that "someone" at US Sailing can "fix," at the end of the day it requires local effort.

It's more than a little frustrating to hear people say that they want someone to fix all of their local problems in return for just writing a check for $50.

Mike


And that pretty much sums up the impotence of US Sailing. Mike everyone knows that EVERYTHING worth doing happens at the ground level by a group of dedicated and passionate individuals without a lick of help from US Sailing. In my opinion and experience US Sailing would just get in the way anyway.

So when you ask what can US Sailing do to inspire you to join US Sailing what you're really asking is what can US Sailing do without doing anything at all that will inspire you to join US Sailing, right?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
So when you ask what can US Sailing do to inspire you to join US Sailing what you're really asking is what can US Sailing do without doing anything at all that will inspire you to join US Sailing, right?


If playing these games is all you have to do today, nothing I can say will help.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 06:54 PM

Why take it that way Dave.... aside from your general dyspeptic reaction to all things US Sailing because they threw you out of the sandbox. (I assume for not playing well with others.)

Beach Access is a legit issue.... cats are different from dinghies that launch off trailers....

It is a real issue... and it is area that could use some attention. Getting information about how other municipalities manage things like insurance, and access could really help the local boots on the ground effort at maintaining water access...

there is no "Them". It is by an large a volunteer organization. It is just part of the game... you need to support your fleet, class, club, regional organization, and national organization and do your part at each level (that means work)... otherwise... you get a half assed result.

Would a paper, sanctioned by the governing body of US Sailing help a local case for maintaining beach access... I think it would... Will your local reps win the case... who knows but you make your best case and work the problem.

Who should create such a document that speaks to issues of recreational and racing catamaran sailors??? hmmm.... probably not a Farr 40 sailor.

Back in the day... we did not work with the local sailing clubs and organizing authorities... We had little interaction with US Sailing, CBYRA, or any yacht club with property.
Sandy Point State Park used to have a very popular beach and launch site for catamrans, windsurfers and other small dinghies. CRAC would use the park for a couple of regattas a year and start the DTB and C100 from the park. A nor easter drove a rebuild of the park.... Somehow, the park admin found a volunteer who attempted to represent the beach cat world. They thought they would make the park much better for our use... That was their goal.. Those of us in the racing club world would use Sandy Point once or twice a year and we were off their radar screen of who to contact. By the time we figured out the plan we were too late to make any changes .. The volunteer was stunned to find out how poorly the rebuild had gone, how bad the plan was and since he had moved away in the two years the park area was closed for the rebuild.... there was no follow up .... Too late to fix the loss.

Since we were not part of the sailing community... they did not find us. The end result was completely unworkable for recreational sailors and not worth it for the cat racers... The park was abandoned to the Jet skiers.

Back in the day... the attitude was ... we don't need that stinking Yacht club and US Sailing mentality... "all we use are the Portsmouth ratings and that was it". Those official sailing organizations are useless and besides... they hate us and don't like us..... Today... You carry that same torch.

The attitude back in the day was a loser... Your attitude is a loser now!

There are real costs.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 09:04 PM

I think this is an area that US Sailing can and should get involved. I would think they could come up with a form letter that would go to local .gov officials. Perhaps even a letter from a lawyer's office can be effective. Nothing scares locals more than the fear of litigation.

A properly worded letter that explains the benefits of sailing to the community. One that also carries a bit of stick with it. You know carrot and stick method.

That would be a nice service.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/23/12 10:04 PM

OK, let's take a step back. What is the actual reason the site was "lost?"

Is this as simple as a one-time scheduling conflict, or is there more to the story?

A deeper question would be, how is this US Sailing's fault (since this is being used as a reason not to join)? Other than, "I'm an American, and it's always someone else's fault, especially if it's a governing body."

Mike
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 12:22 AM

My comment was not about just the Tradewinds site being lost but about sites being lost everywhere. I guess what I see is a big group with money and a lot of members will be able to get more done than some local sailors going to a town meeting. We lost all access to Wrightsville beach years ago and did attend the meeting and said we would police the area, pay a fee and so on and still no joy. I live 5min from the beach and have not sailed here in 12 years and the last time was the Worrell and we sailed in from Miami.
The biking association I joined IMBA has mountain bike trails opening up everywhere with government support on government land. We have 2 parks in my town with another getting ready to open and my membership is only 30.00. If the mountain biking group can get government parks and grant money why can't the sailing group. US Sailing is the largest sailing organization and should be the one to get the ball rolling. One reason cat sailing is in decline is there is no where to launch unless you join a yacht club or find private land to launch. Oh and I don't think myself and most cat sailors are yacht club people.
Posted By: arbo06

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 01:45 AM

The last 100 yards of day one Steeple Chase has killed many a' sailor...... (Anne's Beach)
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 12:07 PM

How was the site lost? History, Founders Park was once a privately owned marina, motel, restaurant and bars. I started doing my seminars there in 1990 and we got along famously.
CABB wanted to start doing a yearly regatta and we introduced them to the venue and the Tradewinds was born.
Then came politics.
the area voted in a new village, to be ruled by themselves instead of the county, nee Islamorada, or Village of Islands (some say Village of Idiots). It was then the fun began.
The new mayor bought the facility to be a town park, and personally bought the adjoining property.
The regatta still managed just fine with the new regime, until they redesigned the beach, tore down the bar, etc. It was then we found it difficult to get to the beach.
Meanwhile, Chip and Barb Short bought the beach concession and figured out a way to get easements to the beach.
Meanwhile the politics has gotten more and more difficult thanks to the town BoD. The director of Founders Park is all for the regatta.

In your asking how we lost the venue, it was not anything the regatta did wrong. We were always orderly and left the place clean. We had good relationships with the park director and staff.

Yep, this is unfair to a perfectly good regatta, who did everything right, but got blindsided by the politicia.

Rick
Posted By: tback

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 01:52 PM



Jumping on Ding's bandwagon ... isn't this the single biggest thing USSailing can do for the sport? Have a gazzillion dollar insurance rider that any club could use to supplement their policy?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 02:29 PM

I thought that was the burgee program?

I'm still trying to get over the shock of not having T-winds at Founders park. Did anyone tell that furry dude in the T-back and his hot wife we're not coming? He'll be crushed.

Can someone contact the bank that owns Rowell's and see if we can use it? Long shot, I know. Maybe we can all pitch in $50 and buy the thing outright... smile

Is MYC a possible host candidate? Having it in Biscayne Bay?

I like the three-day concept over MLK weekend, but agree that crashing the A-cat party would probably cause some bad feelings (those guys have fragile egos smile ) and that's never good for the sport.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 04:31 PM

There is a burgee program provided by Gowrie.

Burgee program

Our yacht club uses it. It's not cheap though. It's just a program that US Sailing partnered with to provide insurance to yacht clubs. It works fairly well for a large established yacht club. However it is not really appropriate for a one weekend regatta.

Last I saw prices a weekend regatta coverage was around $1000. That's not really in the budget for a small regatta.

I'd really like to find out how Bike organizations handle this. They have group rides all the time that have to be covered. They have races. It would be interesting to see how they handle their coverage. I know someone locally that's very involved in the Trailnet program and will inquire about it. Perhaps they don't think the exposure is as large for a bike ride/race.

Rick, Did they request 1 million or 3 million in liability coverage? Or maybe more? Just wondering.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: US SAILING and Local sailing centers - 08/24/12 05:05 PM

Operating a Community Sailing Center is a local effort. However, the support and recognition from US SAILING helps keep the program viable to the local City and Community.

See www.sailsandpoint.org

Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point Board
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 05:06 PM

Beach front property is valuable .. The owner wants to be named on the policy. You don't have a beach access problem... you have an "I don't wanna pay the going market rate problem".

From what i remember, the distance races in Florida had a similar issue with liability coverage for the property owner....

You could form one organization, Incorporate so nobody has personal assets standing behind your insurance policy, buy the policy, write the registration checks to that organization and you can run regattas every weekend. Usually costs you 50 bucks to add a named landowner to the policy. (and it covers your liquor liability)
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 06:51 PM

Mike, I don't know what the attorneys were asking of Chip and Barb.

I don't why everyone says we are crashing the ACat Party. They finish up on Friday and will be gone by Saturday morning. And the beach is huge and can easily accomodate an abundance of boats.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite
I don't why everyone says we are crashing the ACat Party. They finish up on Friday and will be gone by Saturday morning. And the beach is huge and can easily accomodate an abundance of boats.


I retract my earlier statement then, I thought their final day was Saturday. But we'd be crashing their party on Friday since many show up for T-winds Thurs night and Fri morning..
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 08:22 PM

I for one would be showing up at least on Thursday, and going out to practice on Friday, may even get there on Weds. and practice both Thurs. and Fri.

I'm sure the A cat guys won't mind if we just jump in for a couple of their starts...

Right?

;^)
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/24/12 08:34 PM

Rick, have you talked to anyone about access into the water and boat storage? It's very small, also I've never seen them allow boats ON the beach in front of the hotel.Yes ,it's huge but I think it's off limits, better to find out now then let the first one that shows up handle it( Been there done that). For all the Tybees and A cat races I've done there, they keep you over to the side and the A's usually overfill that area.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/25/12 02:48 AM

Yep out front is off limits. It blocks the view of the water and the entry into the water is maybe 2 boats wide unless it has changed.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/25/12 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill
There is a burgee program provided by Gowrie.

Burgee program

Our yacht club uses it. It's not cheap though. It's just a program that US Sailing partnered with to provide insurance to yacht clubs. It works fairly well for a large established yacht club. However it is not really appropriate for a one weekend regatta.

Last I saw prices a weekend regatta coverage was around $1000. That's not really in the budget for a small regatta.

I'd really like to find out how Bike organizations handle this. They have group rides all the time that have to be covered. They have races. It would be interesting to see how they handle their coverage. I know someone locally that's very involved in the Trailnet program and will inquire about it. Perhaps they don't think the exposure is as large for a bike ride/race.

Rick, Did they request 1 million or 3 million in liability coverage? Or maybe more? Just wondering.


I have gotten into mountain bike racing and our club Sorba is a member of Imba which provides some insurance for the events. Some out of town events charge a $5 license for the weekend which provides insurance. This is my first year and I did win my class of masters with a best score of 6 races. It cost $25 to enter and I ended up after each race with something worth more than my entry and a $75 gift certificate at the end. Oh and a bonus of losing 25 lbs and set up is fast take bike off rack put on shoes and helmet and ride. I still like sailing but the travel, boats and fees are getting to costly for me to do a lot of events.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/25/12 11:56 AM

I have been talking to Dennis Green, who has the beach concession, for a year or two. Even while we were entrenched at Founders Park, I wanted to have a Plan B in case things went awry. Indeed they did.

Dennis has been encouraging the entire time.

I really do not see a complication -- we don't ALL have to use the ramp area at the same time, do we?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 02:38 AM

Most of the local access issues that I've seen are managed by local governments, maybe the state for the bigger beaches. We've had good luck over the years, but I am aware of one site in Newport that was shut down by a single "taxpayer" at a meeting.

US Sailing won't be sending lawyers to these meetings, so I'm not sure what else they can do.

Like it or not, there is more bang for their buck by supporting yacht clubs and community boating centers, who tend to have fixed venues and assets. This is where they seem to put the effort to increase access to sailing.

Maybe we need a sea change on our side; rather than pushing against the tide and burning out more people, work with the YCs and CBCs to get new access. We need to stop being so unrealistically cheap, as the days of truly free access are certainly gone and not coming back.

Mike
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 04:12 AM

Too keep programs viable, you need to show benefit to the local people. Today, we had four H-16's from Sail Sand Point on the water for five hours, taking people out for free rides. This was part of the "Day on the Water" at Magnuson Park in Seattle. Providing public benefit is the key to keeping your place on the beach.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 12:04 PM

Talked to the Director of Founders and he is 100% for keeping it there, but there are a bunch of legal problems. He and I are still trying to see what can be done.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite
I have been talking to Dennis Green, who has the beach concession, for a year or two. Even while we were entrenched at Founders Park, I wanted to have a Plan B in case things went awry. Indeed they did.

Dennis has been encouraging the entire time.

I really do not see a complication -- we don't ALL have to use the ramp area at the same time, do we?


With regards to the ramp, the reality of Founders Park was a pretty narrow path to the water (usually one boat's worth) because of everyone setting up their boats at the water line. I see the two launch ramps at the islander with a deeper and wider boat setup area as an improvement. Spring Fever launches half of their boats down a long single-wide concrete boat ramp...it's pretty orderly and you don't have to wait too long there either.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


If you guys don't want to hear valid suggestions please stop asking.


Look at this on the other side of the coin, gentlemen.

I would gladly write a check every year for a considerable membership fee to an organization that would do nothing but work on securing and maintaining favorable beach access for sailing. How about you guys?

please note, this is not me soliciting for a job. I already have two...or three. I also do not have any expertise in what it would take to require beach access. However, I have a little disposable income and consider this would be a very worthwhile effort and would be glad to contribute something I do have available for it. This also isn't really me saying we need to start up a new organization. This is really me using a little sarcasm to try and point out the mistake it is to respond to a potential member of your organization, who has a valuable suggestion, with "sounds great, great suggestion, now do it yourself if you want it to happen...and, by the way, your dues are due". Not everyone has the time or expertise (or enthusiasm) to make bigger things happen than we can do alone. This is a key reason we join organizations and associations. It's not for a discount at the feed trough...it's not for a magazine or a shiny membership card.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


If you guys don't want to hear valid suggestions please stop asking.


Look at this on the other side of the coin, gentlemen.

I would gladly write a check every year for a considerable membership fee to an organization that would do nothing but work on securing and maintaining favorable beach access for sailing. How about you guys?


Definitely, and not feel like I was being extorted to do it.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


If you guys don't want to hear valid suggestions please stop asking.


Look at this on the other side of the coin, gentlemen.

I would gladly write a check every year for a considerable membership fee to an organization that would do nothing but work on securing and maintaining favorable beach access for sailing. How about you guys?



Yes! And we could come up with a really catchy name too, something like...um...

US Sailing!

Oh crap...
Posted By: pgp

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 04:10 PM

How much?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/26/12 05:13 PM

If you guys will pay me a 6 pack of Sam Adams Imperial Stout per day, I will give you unlimited access to Lake Jackson out of my back yard.

Oh, and mast up storage on the beach too!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/27/12 07:28 PM

Maybe you should read my last post again. US Sailing does help with access, but in a different way than you're asking.

What's important is the water, not the beach; correct?

Mike
Posted By: tback

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/27/12 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by brucat


What's important is the water, not the beach; correct?

Mike


Generally speaking ... can't get to the water without crossing the beach.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/27/12 11:52 PM

I'm convinced we're just polishing the brass on the titananic anyway.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/28/12 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
However, I have a little disposable income and consider this would be a very worthwhile effort and would be glad to contribute something I do have available for it.


Dave, direct this poor boy and his disposible income to the proper channel... Single moms.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/28/12 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
However, I have a little disposable income and consider this would be a very worthwhile effort and would be glad to contribute something I do have available for it.


Dave, direct this poor boy and his disposible income to the proper channel... Single moms.


I don't have time for them either.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/28/12 07:52 PM

Techically, you don't need a beach, ramps work too.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/28/12 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Techically, you don't need a beach, ramps work too.

Mike


Technically they don't in side shore 15 and above , or 10 and above with an A cat(No halyard).
Mike, I think you're throwing gas on the fire with all of your arguing about US Sailing. It seems about the worst time you could have picked also.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/29/12 02:51 AM

Launching from a ramp single handed blows. Given the choice of tossing a monkey's salad or bashing a dock/ramp/moored boat/piling/whatever, I'd have to think things through on that one. Works? Yeah, but it ain't pleasant.
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/29/12 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Techically, you don't need a beach, ramps work too.

Mike


Do you even have a beach cat and or sailed one? Clearly, as Karl stated.....single handed sucks using a ramp! You must have more income then care for your boat when you try to load and unload in unprotected waters with the waves, wheels and concrete ramp.

Forrest I-20
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/29/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mlcreek
Originally Posted by brucat
Techically, you don't need a beach, ramps work too.

Mike


Do you even have a beach cat and or sailed one? Clearly, as Karl stated.....single handed sucks using a ramp! You must have more income then care for your boat when you try to load and unload in unprotected waters with the waves, wheels and concrete ramp.

Forrest I-20


I'm pretty sure he sails a Hobie 16, but that is not the point he's trying to make . That point would be US Sailing doesn't owe us a thing, and how dare we suggest they do something constructive for us. Their busy.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 03:13 AM

Hmmm... the Bristol RI A cat fleet launches off a concrete ramp.

The Olympic Tornado Fleet launches off the concrete ramp at a public park in Miami.

The West River Galesville fleet launches off an Oyster shell covered ramp....

Just some facts.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 04:12 AM

Pointless facts, but yes facts.
So You're saying US Sailing is going to get us ramps.Great,almost as good as a beach. They aren't called Rampcats ,now are they. Or are you just being the typical Schneider and arguing just to argue? Well, you named 2 ramps one on each end of the east coast congrats.
Seems Mike had enough sense to leave it alone,but I should have known you'd run in with the gas can and torch. You are your own worst enemy.
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hmmm... the Bristol RI A cat fleet launches off a concrete ramp.

The Olympic Tornado Fleet launches off the concrete ramp at a public park in Miami.

The West River Galesville fleet launches off an Oyster shell covered ramp....

Just some facts.


Mark,

That's just great, that out of thousands of miles up and down the east coast you can quote a couple of ramps for boats to launch. It's clear by your post and Mike's the elitest attitiude of US Sailing and that they dont give a dam about beach cats! I'm not on this forum very much, but sit back and observe. However it is clear, YOU and MIKE are defending US Sailing which is clearly part of the problem and not the solution. This thread was about Rick and the venue. Not once have I seen anything positive about US Sailing coming forth to help him and or anything to make this event happen. You sit there all pompous, and espout your dogma, and make negative comments of others that question and or differ in your dribble. Why don't both of you, along with US Sailing, either get involved and solve this problem with Rick and help make this thing happen, or shut the hell up!

Forrest I-20
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 04:01 PM

Todd... you continue to amaze.... with all your libertarian BS posting... WHY do you think you are entitiled here...

NOBODY is going to give you a beach or ramp to go sailing. Nobody is going to organize a beach or launch for you either... not the least is US Sailing (which essentially is a big club with some paid staff).

Fact of life... Trade winds has AN INSURANCE PROBLEM.... The property owner will NOT GIVE YOU access to their property because there is a slight chance that events could go really wrong and they could be held liable.

So... you have at least two private insurance company options. US Sailing worked with one company to design the package to cover the full game of sailboat racing.... Then the other company matched the package. (its america! and US Sailing did the job)

Tradewinds Leaders just have to pick one now...

Oh... it will cost you money...approx 1000 bucks.... with 100 boats... that 10 bucks a boat... or 5 bucks a head.. basically the price of a beer. Barb and Chip paid for that coverage in the past... THANK THEM!!!

Every body wants to get paid..... it's America.... Or do you want to change the system? Your libertarian philosophy should be supporting the property owner not free loaders.

Dave... sailboat racing is not like bike racing because of the numbers involved .... cost per head is much less.

MI..

the point of showing you ramps used by single handers is... ramps and cranes are the way many single handed cat sailors get access to the water.... If I don't like the launch.... I drive somewhere else and pay more money for one that I like. Its AMERCIA. You may think ramps suck.... the Bristol A cats deal with it. The point..It's not impossible.. its just a choice.

RE US Sailing don't give a damn... is just bs propaganda.. and you are simply ignorant of the facts.

First..
Do you really think that US Sailing (or any organization) should be running around telling property owners on the waterfront that they ... SHOULD MAKE THEIR PROPERTY AVAILABLE to some one else? Really?

Sailing Clubs are formed.... the members pool their money, purchase property and run the club the way they want. Paper clubs form.... pool their money buy insurance and gear and move around the area and run events.

Stop whining for gods sake nobody is going to do this work for you.

To your exact point about US Sailing and what they do...

I have never owned a Hobie class boat in my life.... I have bashed Hobie policy choices of the distance past more then anyone. So... they call me up last fall... Can you make a Junior NA's happen in Annapolis with their JO's and just before the Olympic games? Me, Ugh... there is a reason we have never had a catamaran event much less NAs in Annapolis proper... we have no club with a beach.
Them... What can you do? It would be good for the sport.. Ok... I agree it would! ... how much time before you need a decision.... Welll it's November.... not much time.

So, our group convinced Annapolis Yacht Club to say Yes... so happens. it was AT THE US SAILING MEETING, THEN we got US Sailing to convince their board that this new to them event would work (two previous years of JO's). We used the AYC name and US Sailing as the national organization to approach a private property owner with beach front to say yes. The Hobie Class Association then made the money to the property owner and the legal and admin details work. It turned into a spectacular event (despite light wind and brutal temps)

The point of the story... It was a partnership between the professionally run YC in my area, their volunteers, the unpaid but true pro's of the Hobie class Association, the actual pro's at US Sailing running the JO program, and the local team of cat sailors from the paper Hobie YC and catsailors from 3 other Yacht Clubs with their equipment.

MI... that is how it works in the real world... Notice the role that US Sailing plays.

Tradewinds decided to move the event to a different property owner (who manages the liability on his own)... If you don't like the new venue and dates.... ORGANIZE and take the insurance option. It's not a big deal... Rick White decided to move. The whole... Loosing beach Access thread was a red herring.

Loosing Beach Access is a LOCAL issue... there is no need for any national organization to butt in...

On the Chesapeake... you loose beach access due to erosion.... The property owner does not like to loose the ground to erosion... so they usually put in rip rap... no more erosion... and no more launch site... The town of Cambridge owned the waterfront park we launched and raced from....(yes we did all of the insurance stuff through CRAC)... CRAC, the Cambridge Yacht Club and the town engineers solved the problem by using their rip rap to build a a little launch harbor.... Families love the beach for the protected swimming and we have our beach access... as a bonus... they added a water tap for us as well.. Priceless!
The key (as is usually the case) was good communication and a great working relationship with the leaders of the town/YC members.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 05:22 PM

Mark, well stated. We experienced the results of your efforts at Rock Hall, MD for the Junior Olympics in 2010, and watched you help pull the team together again this year at Annapolis. You are to be commended for your support and setting the example on what is needed to continue and help grow our sport.
Caleb Tarleton
www.sailsandpoint.org
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 06:37 PM

Mark you truly are a dumbass if you think I am one to feel entitled . I was pointing out your idiotic arguing over rather ramps are better than beaches for beachcats. You obviously are so single mindedly focused on hyping USS, you missed my point.It's called sarcasm, you seem to attempt to use it enough I thought you might recognize it. I learned many years ago the USS does not benefit me except by making the rules and training race officers. But the way you guys got offended when Dave Lennard suggested USS should work on access issues, says alot.For such a smart guy ,I can't believe how stupid you can be sometimes.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 07:36 PM

Jeeze, if all that's standing in the way of Founders park is a special event liability policy, I'd pay another $5 entry fee...
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 07:57 PM

Mark as far the bike racing I don't understand your comment. Are you saying bike racing has more participants than sailing so sailors should not be able to get a spot to launch at public ramps and bike riders get government land to build trails on. Our six race bike spring series gave away over 8,000 in prizes and had an average of 60 riders not much more than sailing. Last weekend I rode in a race with 30 riders and they gave away 1,500 in prize money. Please help me understand your comments.
My comment about US sailing and boat access was not to get US sailing to go and buy beach property and provide beach access for sailors, but to help organize get contacts in the government to get sail boat launching at public ramps/parks with the help of local clubs (help get the tools for the job). The decline of beach cat sailing is mostly because there is not good places to launch and the daily sailor just wont buy a boat if there is no place to sail it.
The one thing I noticed about bike racing is that most people really work together and have positive attitudes and support each other because of the love of the sport. If I was new to sailing and was reading some of the post on here I would think what a screwed up group" I don't want to be a part of that". Lets up our game and work together and give positive comments if you have something negative to say just PM the person.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Jeeze, if all that's standing in the way of Founders park is a special event liability policy, I'd pay another $5 entry fee...

Me too and we don't really need shirts or some of the other stuff and I would rather get a cash prize than a trophy to make it simpler. Why is the insurance so much the race is on public water and each boat should have insurance?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 08:27 PM

I will try to be clear for you Todd.... that way you can stop making crap up.

launching from ramps is not my preferred launch... just that many beach cats, A cats, SINGLE HANDED SAILORS do launch from ramps. (one of the largest A class clubs, Hopatcong has a ramp) THIS IS A FACT... So stop making **** up about what I wrote. If you don't like the ramp... go somewhere else.


I am not offended by Dave saying... US Sailing should work on beach access... Stop making **** up. I agree US Sailing could do something about small boat access... I think Dave would be perfect person to take that job. It is a volunteer organization... step up and make it happen. Don't you have issues with the Outer banks beach access? Maybe you could step up.!

Don't like the US Sailing umbrella... no problem.. join the surf community.... a bit narrow for my taste but... step up and do something.

Just to make sure you get the point of this particular thread... Tradewinds is NOT a problem about beach access!!!.

Stop making other stuff up... I am not hyping US Sailing....I told MI, HOW I used them and for what purpose. He obviously did not know any facts.

The older I get... the less patience I have for half assed clubs that waste my time or BS drivel like this. I think training race officers and working on the rules is extremely valuable...US Sailing does other stuff that organizations need to use as well. Nevertheless, I don't go back to clubs who screw up the on the water stuff... whether they have a PRO with a US Sailing PRO cert or not.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 09:26 PM

Quote
Mark as far the bike racing I don't understand your comment. Are you saying bike racing has more participants than sailing so sailors should not be able to get a spot to launch at public ramps and bike riders get government land to build trails on. Our six race bike spring series gave away over 8,000 in prizes and had an average of 60 riders not much more than sailing. Last weekend I rode in a race with 30 riders and they gave away 1,500 in prize money. Please help me understand your comments.


You as an individual can take your boat wherever the community allows you to launch. Back in the hey day of sailing... lots of sailors... equaled lots of launch access.

My nephew rides a mountain bike... All of his local trails have been shut down... the property owners and or the state parks have shut down all but a few trails.

He never talks about A RACE either... Moreover, A RACE is different... You can't just show up like a flash mob at this same public launch, seize beach access and expect the park to allow that.... They now demand you cover the cost of their liability.. US Sailing put together an insurance package that address's most of their demands. But the sailors have to pay for the coverage.

Quote
The decline of beach cat sailing is mostly because there is not good places to launch and the daily sailor just wont buy a boat if there is no place to sail it.


Perhaps, but I don't see this in my world.... When Sandy Point changed the park around years ago... they had two years of beach use numbers.... the perfect sailing venue had dropped to just one or two boats a weekend. They had other groups that wanted more space... The racers did not use the park but once a year... The beach cats in galesville using that oyster shell RAMP for their parking spots decided to take an opportunity and join the yacht club down the street. We have space on the beach for new members... we don't have waiting lists.... Bottom line. no demand for trailer access to the water ... no demand for yacht club spots. We have issues.

I agree with your main point....(help get the tools for the job)... BUT... you have to have people to help. The racing clubs have solutions they use... the rec sailor has no organization. Dealers have gone away... local dealer agents don't take on maintaining the recreational beach access. it's a problem.

RE swag..

So... 60 riders for your local race... Well... 60 boats would be among the top 5 events in the country for turnout this year for a catamaran race.

Back in the day... the swag came from lots of places... dealers, bars, Coke a Cola, etc etc. So... No big turnout numbers... no easy access to swag!.. Now, I just watched Annapolis Yacht club generate almost 20 K in swag for their Junior Olympics... 300 + kids and their parents.... so... numbers equal good swag... BUT it took a lot of work by their volunteers to get that swag.

I simply don't see a good comparison between beach front property that EVERYONE WANTS and so is among the most expensive real estate in the country and a mountain that you can't build on... or use for much else. Sorry, I just don't see it.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/30/12 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I will try to be clear for you Todd.... that way you can stop making crap up.You've been watching to much politics. "When you're wrong accuse the other guy of being a liar" doesn't work when you've typed it on a forum.

launching from ramps is not my preferred launch... just that many beach cats, A cats, SINGLE HANDED SAILORS do launch from ramps. (one of the largest A class clubs, Hopatcong has a ramp) THIS IS A FACT... So stop making **** up about what I wrote. If you don't like the ramp... go somewhere else. I've launched at Hopatcong. The last weekend I was there I saw at least 4 boats go into the structure around it. I had to swim my boat in backwards to the farside ramp the second day because the main ramp was unusable. What's your point with all the ramp crap anyway, besides arguing.It's a red herring.


I am not offended by Dave saying... US Sailing should work on beach access... Stop making **** up. I agree US Sailing could do something about small boat access... I think Dave would be perfect person to take that job. It is a volunteer organization... step up and make it happen. Don't you have issues with the Outer banks beach access? Maybe you could step up.!

Quote
Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!
So this snarky, smartass response was because you weren't offended. I'll keep that in mind.And don't say it wasn't sarcasm because you've spent every post since then saying it's not US Sailing's problem.

Don't like the US Sailing umbrella... no problem.. join the surf community.... a bit narrow for my taste but... step up and do something. Casting off anyone that disagrees with you with the "Step up..." argument is getting old.

Just to make sure you get the point of this particular thread... Tradewinds is NOT a problem about beach access!!!. We all know what the real problem with Tradewinds is.

Stop making other stuff up... I am not hyping US Sailing....I told MI, HOW I used them and for what purpose. He obviously did not know any facts. You are always hyping USS.

The older I get... the less patience I have for half assed clubs that waste my time or BS drivel like this. I think training race officers and working on the rules is extremely valuable...US Sailing does other stuff that organizations need to use as well. Nevertheless, I don't go back to clubs who screw up the on the water stuff... whether they have a PRO with a US Sailing PRO cert or not. And I thought you were to cheap to join.It seems you don't sail anymore anyway so I guess it doesn't matter.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 08/31/12 03:34 AM

Mark thanks for your reply and I only have a few comments. There is no place to launch a cat here in my town anymore unless you find private land. There are power boat ramps but they are not cat friendly (low draw bridge between bay and ramp with 5 knot current). We have gone to the town and pleaded for access and been turned down and no boat can be left on the beach overnight. We tried to have a regatta and we had to rent the entire parking lot 2,000 per day even off season. There is a yacht club but no beach access and one really steep ramp on the sound side and no beach.
Your nephew needs to check out IMBA for his mountain biking they help clubs get grants, build trails provide insurance. We had our only trail close down several years ago when someone fell and broke there neck and sued the county parks. We did get the trail back open by joining IMBA to provide insurance and help educate the county. We now have a second park opened and just received a 20,000 grant for trail work. Most of the trails are built and maintained by the riders but we do get some financial help from the parks. We have also been contacted by another county to start another park/trail. I guess my point was to help your nephew and when our first trail closed it was just a local group of riders building the trails when the county closed the park. It took the IMBA organizations help to get the park to reopen.
I guess your last comment about a beach and a mountains value is a little hard to understand. Beach access would be a 8'-10' path from road to beach or just a ramp to the water with some kind of ground to pull you boat up. I think most beaches are public to the high water line and have public access. We have the beach paths they just put post in the middle and passed a law for no boats its not about land. Mountain biking takes a lot more space as most trails are 4 to 35 miles long so you do need a lot of land.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/01/12 03:55 AM

Wow, still going?

I only came in to shut down the myth that loss of local access is a valid reason to not join US Sailing. You guys did the rest.

I've launched from ramps, some are easy, others don't work. I was just trying to get people to think outside of the box. There are always more options than you realize; it's really not a big deal.

Read Mark's posts again. Take away all the name calling and defensiveness (on all sides) and he makes a lot of valid points here.

I am the MHC Chair. Will I defend US Sailing? Of course, especially on a topic like this. The organization just isn't meant to be doing what you're asking. We can help, but the grunt work is always local.

David, I honestly wish the mountain biking to beach access argument were so simple. You said it yourself; look at how far you can go with $20,000 with biking. They want hundreds of thousands or more to build boat ramp parks, let alone beaches. Waterfront property, even on some little pond, is ridiculously expensive.

Most places would be OK with our cats (very little environmental footprint, etc.), but they would then have to answer to jetskiers and powerboaters or risk being accused of favoritism. So it's easier just to keep everyone out.

Why do I care? I'm actually trying to help you guys by killing these myths.

How do I know what I'm talking about? My Hobie fleet is always looking for new venues. Our officers and members work really hard with local and state authorities to make this happen. We don't use that as a reason to not join HCA or US Sailing. All that would accomplish is wasting time and effort that could be spent doing something more fruitful... Oh the irony...

Mike
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/02/12 03:49 AM

Mike
The 20,000 was a grant we got to build trails only. The county built the roads, well, bathrooms, gazebo, kayak launch, provided signs and the bikers, hikers, horse riders built there own trails. Most beaches have public access they just don't allow cats through them. No need to build a beach it is already public land. I guess the ramps show favoritism to the power boaters and jet skiers. It does not cost hundreds of thousands to put a couple loads of sand by a ramp or clear away some brush. It would be nice if we could just have a more positive attitude. I made a comment about US sailing helping with cat access and I just got beat up with it.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/02/12 02:02 PM

Dave

HOW is asking you to step up and take a lead in an area that you clearly care about is called "beating you up."?

there are 10 Area Reps and a couple of chairs in the MHC. Plus a few cat sailors who volunteer in other areas... getting done what is on the table now is a struggle.... Putting more on the table requires more people to step up and do work.

My position is... Yes, I think US Sailing could play a role in local beach access issues.. In my experience, these issues were entirely local....BUT I could see value in a US Sailing position in your local battle.

However, It will take someone like yourself to step up and make that happen. You can say... sorry, not interested... but you can't play the victim and say... you were beat up!

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/02/12 03:46 PM

Until multihull sailors outnumber the green types, you're f'd. As long as the population keeps booming, you're f'd.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/02/12 06:41 PM

I'm being as positive as possible with all the negativity being thrown our way. I gave constructive advice to help improve the situation. At some point, frustration takes over.

Mike
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/03/12 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
I'm being as positive as possible with all the negativity being thrown our way. I gave constructive advice to help improve the situation. At some point, frustration takes over.

Mike


Yes it does. So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida. It shouldn't be to hard, I mean with over 700 miles of coast, surely you can prove what everyone's dues went for. I know all the money stayed in Florida, and we are benefitting in so many ways.....so enlighten us. Name the city or county government, and location of launching sites that are presently under negoiations, and or obtained. Isn't there a saying somewhere, "if we build it, they will come."

Forrest I-20
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/03/12 01:41 PM

Mike,Mark,
Thanks for your work in US sailing and stepping up for a no paying job. I don't know how US sailing is structured where the money goes and what goals they have. Explaining that or a link might go a long way to help others understand what there dues go to.
Mark
I guess I felt beat up with your comment about if you want it come make it happen . I may have misread the comment as reading something and talking face to face is a lot different.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/03/12 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Until multihull sailors outnumber the green types, you're f'd. As long as the population keeps booming, you're f'd.


Is sailing not green? Maybe we need some new verbiage about wind power. The government is all about saving energy at our expense ( might need a new thread for that this winter).
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/03/12 01:59 PM

Dave
no worries.

good luck at the F18s
Posted By: Hullflyer1

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 12:34 PM

DELRAY BEACH, FLORIDA 33444 We presently are allowed 60 spots for mast up storage $250 per year. There are 2 areas to launch beach cats one mile apart in Delray. There are also many SUP, kayakers and kite surfers using the same area, and we all get along.
Originally Posted by Mlcreek
Originally Posted by brucat
I'm being as positive as possible with all the negativity being thrown our way. I gave constructive advice to help improve the situation. At some point, frustration takes over.

Mike


Yes it does. So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida. It shouldn't be to hard, I mean with over 700 miles of coast, surely you can prove what everyone's dues went for. I know all the money stayed in Florida, and we are benefitting in so many ways.....so enlighten us. Name the city or county government, and location of launching sites that are presently under negoiations, and or obtained. Isn't there a saying somewhere, "if we build it, they will come."

Forrest I-20
Posted By: Hullflyer1

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 12:39 PM

I forgot to mention that quite a few years ago the city wanted to stop allowing us our beach access, at that time we were allowed 30 spots. The sailors and friends got together and fought city hall. The result was when we left we had 60 spots instead of 30. It can be done.
Originally Posted by Hullflyer1
DELRAY BEACH, FLORIDA 33444 We presently are allowed 60 spots for mast up storage $250 per year. There are 2 areas to launch beach cats one mile apart in Delray. There are also many SUP, kayakers and kite surfers using the same area, and we all get along.
Originally Posted by Mlcreek
Originally Posted by brucat
I'm being as positive as possible with all the negativity being thrown our way. I gave constructive advice to help improve the situation. At some point, frustration takes over.

Mike


Yes it does. So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida. It shouldn't be to hard, I mean with over 700 miles of coast, surely you can prove what everyone's dues went for. I know all the money stayed in Florida, and we are benefitting in so many ways.....so enlighten us. Name the city or county government, and location of launching sites that are presently under negoiations, and or obtained. Isn't there a saying somewhere, "if we build it, they will come."

Forrest I-20
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mlcreek
So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida.

You need to re-read all of my prior posts, you clearly just don't get it, and aren't even trying...

EDIT: Hullflyer clearly gets it (THANK YOU!!!). Beach access is a local issue. US Sailing helps with other issues.

--------------------

David, seriously? Is your browser broken???

http://about.ussailing.org/About_Us.htm

Be sure to click on Strategic Goals as well.

By “access” I believe they mean access to programs, not access to all the beaches in the country, which is why I recommended working with YCs or CBCs.

Hope this helps.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Mlcreek
So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida.

You need to re-read all of my prior posts, you clearly just don't get it, and aren't even trying...

EDIT: Hullflyer clearly gets it (THANK YOU!!!). Beach access is a local issue. US Sailing helps with other issues.

--------------------

David, seriously? Is your browser broken???

http://about.ussailing.org/About_Us.htm

Be sure to click on Strategic Goals as well.

By “access” I believe they mean access to programs, not access to all the beaches in the country, which is why I recommended working with YCs or CBCs.

Hope this helps.

Mike


Mike, I'm not sure why you're attacking a guy who has been exceptionally cordial and only proposing an interesting comparison between sporting authorities. The point is, it doesn't have to be a local issue. US Sailing could take up the task to help people with local water access issues. Maybe it's building a document that helps people understand the general legal processes involved, a glossary of terms...perhaps, it's having some experts on tap that can provide advice. Maybe it's as advanced as having an advocate in several key states that can go to bat with the local guys.

David makes a good comparison in that mountain biking is a sport that carries as much, if not significantly more, risk for an organization or property owner than someone providing water access for us to launch boats on. How are they able to secure new parks and grow while our access is becoming more limited than ever? This is a good question. It doesn't seem to be reverted to just "a local problem" within their organization.

If nothing else, this could be another tangible benefit that US sailing can point to. This actually fits quite well with the linked strategic goals.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 03:18 PM

I think the mountain bike guys may have a bit easier time than the cat sailors, as they are looking for access to...the woods, and with the politicals, it's out of sight, out of mind, where the cats are looking for BEACH access...and you KNOW those same politicians also want to have access to the beaches, and don't want any 'stray cats' out there, running over little Johny, playing in the waves.

We may have better luck if we get together with the Surfer Dudes and the Kite Boarders on this, than with US Sailing.

I know when ever I come in to land at a public beach, lake or ocean, there always seems to be a bunch of kids around who, instead of moving out of the way, just stand there looking at you, coming at them! I always say to myself, "Just don't HIT anyone!"

Can you imagine the lawsuit if you did injure some little kid while beaching your cat?
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/04/12 06:59 PM

Mike
Thanks for the link sorry I did not take the time to look it up.

MISSION: Provide leadership, integrity and advancement for the sport of sailing.

VISION: Be the recognized leader in training and certification, in support for the racing sailor and in facilitating access to sailing.

After reading the Mission and Vision I could not help to think that providing sailboat access at public launches would fall into "facilitating access to sailing" If you don't have a place to launch your boat you can't sail. Wow US sailing spends a lot of money. I thought it was only volunteer there is even a pension plan. A lot of money goes to the Olympics which really does not cater to the masses (it could be donations). What does US sailing own that is worth around 500,000 (not exact number)? After reading the little I did I am more put off on US sailing and what they are doing with the money.
Tim
Aren't all beaches public up to the high water line? Yes it would probably be better to work with the surfers and kite boarders as they do have surf only areas at beaches.
I would say that most boaters have liability insurance and bikers don't as the bike is covered under your homeowners so I don't agree with your comparison. I would say there are plenty of lawsuits from bikers and that was why I brought this up about US sailing using there power in numbers to help like the IMBA has for mountain bikers. I am sorry I said anything now and I don't really think US sailing is something I want to be a part of, but I do support people that give there personal time to help sailing in general so thanks to all for your efforts and time.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 03:49 AM

Jake, I wasn't attacking anyone. It is irritating to constantly be asked what the benefits are, what the goals are, etc. when it's just as easy for people to go to the US Sailing site and look it up. Where do you think I go for the answers???

If you look back, you will see that I (and Mark and probably others) agree that the MHC can create a list of guidelines and best practices for those in local negotiations to use.

David, I respect your decision to not join, even though I think it is misguided. "Access to sailing" does NOT mean "access to the beach" and you most definitely can sail without access to a beach. I've given other options throughout the discussion.

Don't like the idea of going to a YC or CBC (me neither)? Do the legwork to make local access happen (that's what we do locally here).

Mike
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 12:22 PM

Mike

I guess you are not reading my post. I am not just talking about beach access. I am talking about public ramp launch access to be cat friendly. I have said we have tried locally to get access and been denied. The yacht club does not have cat access and a long waiting list (most people join to get parking and beach access and don't even own sailboats). I don't expect US sailing to come in and change things in my local area and I expect that this is becoming common in other areas. Just saying getting cat access will help promote our sport every time an area closes I would guess we lose sailors. Wrightsville beach had over 100 boat regattas in the 80's and now you can't even keep a cat on the beach overnight unless it is on private property.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 03:57 PM

In my town there are a few boat ramps and even two spots to get the boat on the beach without a ramp. Problem is they don't allow you to park your trailer anywhere.

The boat ramps do have parking, at $15 per, and you have to dodge everyone when trying to step the mast. Oh, and one has power lines stretching across the ramp 15 feet up. oops.

Pete found a free launch spot or two in Hickory Bay, but it's pretty shallow, and a ramp.

Sanibel causeway is pretty good spot - $8 to get over the bridge, but gets you gulf access, lots of space and pretty beaches... Not sure if they'd allow overnight stuff if we had a multi-day regatta there...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 04:20 PM

Getting back to what started this, I think it was about paying for Insurance at Founder's Park, is that right? And US Sailing was going to sell them a policy for $1,000? Or more than that?

If 50 boats show up, that's $20 each, added to the entry fee.

Anyone got a problem with that? I think last year's entry fee was what, about $150? So this year it would be $170.

Or is there a lot more to it than that?

And if we use the Islander, I assume we are going to be sailing on the "outside" vs. in the bay, where we normal race, is that right?
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 05:42 PM

Not really. CABB has always carried the insurance on the regatta through US Sailing. This has to do with the beach concessionairs and the village. Rumor has it that insurance could be a problem.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 06:07 PM

the concessionaires thing confuses me. Do they have to "host" the event?

What qualifies an entity (say CABB) to host their event at the park?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Getting back to what started this, I think it was about paying for Insurance at Founder's Park, is that right? And US Sailing was going to sell them a policy for $1,000? Or more than that?

If 50 boats show up, that's $20 each, added to the entry fee.

Anyone got a problem with that? I think last year's entry fee was what, about $150? So this year it would be $170.

Or is there a lot more to it than that?

And if we use the Islander, I assume we are going to be sailing on the "outside" vs. in the bay, where we normal race, is that right?


With regards to the Islander, while you are sailing on the outside, it's still behind the reef. Its choppier than the sound behind Founders Park but it's not full on big waves or anything.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 06:39 PM

correct. Only a bit more seaweed and man-o-war.

Still beats any good day on a crappy frozen lake
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 06:47 PM

IIRC there are also less shallow spots on the outside and a shorter sail to the course. Plus a closer walk to the tiki bar at days end.

What would the price difference be?

Haven't followed the entire thread, any thoughts to moving up to the Miami area? Would make for a shorter drive and easier logistics from the airport. I'm all for sailing in the keys but Biscany Bay is far from bad.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/05/12 11:55 PM

Timbo, I'm sure this is not what you meant, but before anyone lights their hair on fire; US Sailing isn't charging anyone ANY amount of money for insurance.

That would be the insurance company, and the discounted rate charged to the OA is a benefit of US Sailing.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 12:08 AM

Now I'm confused Mike.

So, the OA buys insurance from...who?

And then they get a US Sailing discount from that provider...why?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by brucat


That would be the insurance company, and the discounted rate charged to the OA is a benefit of US Sailing.

Mike


Hate to burst your bubble but we quit using Chubb (US Sailing insurance provider) regatta insurance because it was too expensive and found a provider that gave the same coverage for less so the Chubb arrangement isn't really a benefit. Have ever noticed that Chubb never makes the cut when someone asks about insuring their boat? Why is that? Come on Mike I know you need to beat the US Sailing drum but now it's just starting to get ridiculous. Stop pimpin the stuff we can't use and start working on the things we need!
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat


That would be the insurance company, and the discounted rate charged to the OA is a benefit of US Sailing.

Mike


Hate to burst your bubble but we quit using Chubb (US Sailing insurance provider) regatta insurance because it was too expensive and found a provider that gave the same coverage for less so the Chubb arrangement isn't really a benefit. Have ever noticed that Chubb never makes the cut when someone asks about insuring their boat? Why is that? Come on Mike I know you need to beat the US Sailing drum but now it's just starting to get ridiculous. Stop pimpin the stuff we can't use and start working on the things we need!


So Dave....are you saying that with the thousands of boats of members in USS, we can't get a better deal than just going on the internet and working our own deal? I thought there would be a discount because of volumn and or association with USS. Hmmm....and people pay dues for what? I even bet there are agents on this thread that would love to write the business and give a great discount for couple thousand sail boats.

Forrest I-20
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 04:07 PM

I don't know about the regatta insurance but the US Sailing B,G&B boat coverage is pretty high with high deductibles and they only insure one design.Have heard they are good on claims though, and that means alot.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I don't know about the regatta insurance but the US Sailing B,G&B boat coverage is pretty high with high deductibles and they only insure one design.Have heard they are good on claims though, and that means alot.


I wouldn't be surprised if the better deals can be had for larger, more valuable, boats for private insurance. That's probably where the negotiating leverage is between US Sailing and any insurance company.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 07:40 PM

This is almost amusing...

My point was that US Sailing is not running the insurance.

It's actually Gowrie, according to the website (again, why am I the only one who can find this?): http://membership.ussailing.org/Page431.aspx

I am not saying it's better or cheaper than anything else, just saying that there is a discount, and that is a benefit of membership. I'm constantly being asked what the benefits are, here's an obvious one. If you choose to use different insurance, that doesn't make it any less of a valid point that US Sailing partnered with this company to provide this as a benefit.

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 07:43 PM

As best I know US Sailing's agency is also the only one that still provides insurance if you charter your boat. I'm also not sure who else provides insurance during racing, if you read the documentation, most policies exclude racing, although your particular agent might be more forgiving.

Still, boat insurance isn't regatta insurance. Why do we need the latter again? $20=more beer money.



Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
This is almost amusing...

My point was that US Sailing is not running the insurance.

It's actually Gowrie, according to the website (again, why am I the only one who can find this?): http://membership.ussailing.org/Page431.aspx

I am not saying it's better or cheaper than anything else, just saying that there is a discount, and that is a benefit of membership. I'm constantly being asked what the benefits are, here's an obvious one. If you choose to use different insurance, that doesn't make it any less of a valid point that US Sailing partnered with this company to provide this as a benefit.

Mike

What do you think B,G&B was in my post? Barton,Gowrie and Brett maybe? Geez.
In my mind a benefit is a savings, not a greater expense.
Posted By: tback

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
This is almost amusing...


.... US Sailing partnered with this company to provide this as a benefit.

Mike


That would be analogous to saying that because my Cable provider offers HBO it's like a benefit to me ...

Wait, I don't watch HBO and if I did I'd have to pay extra for it ...

Is that really a benefit to me?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 08:57 PM

I already answered that. It's a benefit that you choose to leave on the table. This happens every day when people elect not to use employer-offered benefits.

Todd, someone else mentioned Chubb. Cost is only one part of the equation.

Follow the link above to see what is covered for clubs, types of boats covered (not just OD), etc.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Tradewinds venue change question - 09/06/12 11:03 PM

Just for the record.

BACK IN THE DAY.... US Sailing did not have a partnership with any insurance companies. Regatta liability insurance was available through one underwriter. cost was about 350 for on the water and another 350 for beach/liquor liability. You had one option. Back then... States did not require your group to provide their own insurance... they covered it for you ... so... it was just 350 for on the water coverage... Times are tight.... they refuse to do that these days... if you want to use the state park... you need them to be named insured on a policy.

What you bought back then was coverage for the RC and its actions. If you borrowed your buddies power boat to run marks for you with your volunteers (they get hurt pulling up an anchor etc etc .... when it hit the fan.... It was your buddies insurance that covered any liability for his boats actions.... It wound up on HIS credit report etc etc. Some of us thought that was a big ask when you were borrowing a powerboat and getting a volunteer to run races.

US sailing worked with Gowrie and developed the burgee policy. Solved this problem. The other company soon matched many of the benefits.... ITS AMERICA... competition is good. You pick what you want or can afford... Just like you decide on how well off your insurance companies finances must be. (See AIG and bailout for the counter factual)... Is the value worth the cost... YMMV... THE POINT IS.... IT was US Sailing that sorted this out and gave us choice.

Back in the day.... your PRO, would volunteer to be the one responsible on the RC and take on all of the liability.... He basically trusted the host club to cover his butt ests.... (versus his home owners policy...) (You can imagine how those conversations worked out between host club and pro with regard to liability coverage... HUH!!!! WTF who needs this BS).... SO... US Sailing decided to purchase liability coverage for their PRO's who pass their certification and stay current with the continuing ed of being a PRO...

You may have noticed the liability coverage requirements for the A class and the F18 worlds coming up in the next two months... You may have noticed that MANY of the owners are in a scramble to purchase the proper amount of coverage and CAN'T from their underwriter. .... News flash... these requirements are WORLD WIDE and have been in place for some time.

Back in the day....you had the sailors on Olympic campaigns who needed world wide coverage. Boat US writes a lot of policies but did not want to touch Olympic sailing campaign requirements. ... Nowadays...the current OD program uses those World Wide liability limits... (HMMM... I wonder how that happened.)

When you race overseas...and bring your boat... the OD policy covers you.... Moreover, the Olympic guys will frequently charter a spare boat from their training partner... News flash... YOU have to get your own liability coverage. Usually for each country you might race in in the EU.. So... US Sailing took what one of the teams had worked out... expanded on the RFP to include you loaning your boat to another plus chartering your boat and your charters, PLUS coach boat insurance... (yep... to be on the race course within 300 yards of the racing... you have to carry a million bucks of coverage plus some other requirements for the driver) with that underwriter.

This OD coverage was just for the Olympic classes... and now the underwriter had made it the one design insurance policy that you now see. Don't plan on doing the Worlds in the US or abroad .... there are cheaper policies. YMMV.

Bottom line. that is the record... whether it is worth it to you is your call.

(he he... maybe we should ask the Obama passed Consumer Protection Board to take a look at boat insurance policies out there and generate the single sheet simple form so you know what you are buying... many people seem confused by the choices in the marketplace)
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