"batch-nominal elastic modulus of the fibers in an FRP laminate with the modulus measured with impregnated tows, by extensometers, between 1000 and 6000 microstrains; the Measurement Committee will accept the following testing methods (and may accept other similar methods): SACMA-SRM16, ASTM D 4018, or JIS R 7601;"
Several of the rules I like: No trim adjustments to foils No water ballast No boundary layer technology on hulls Manual power only (no more generators, etc.) Limited use of electronics, wireless, weather tracking, etc. Inclusion of cameras and microphones for spectators.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/1204:37 AM
I think I saw an interview where Larry discussed 17 around the time of the DoG event. Wish I could remember the exact reason, but he's had a bunch of boats with that number, and apparently has won some major events running that number.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/1203:08 PM
I'll post 'em here since I don't post, let alone even visit that internet cesspool...
At one point as I was watching 17 sail, I notices that the T Foil on the rudder was lifting more that the board. The boat was sailing bow down. I was about .25 miles off, so it was difficult to see exactly what was going on, but I assume that this is when the board broke.
Having seen the tips of F18 boards sink after a breakage, I assumed that the foil probably sunk. It was reported to me later in the day that one of the chase boats picked it up; it was floating.
Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1203:13 AM
Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?
If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/1207:00 PM
Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?
I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1211:55 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?
If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.
The rules prohibit any underwater adjustment of the foils (flaps, etc.)...but they do have the ability to hydraulically tilt the daggerboards fore and aft quite a bit. The hydraulic power comes from the manual winching stations.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1211:56 AM
Originally Posted by daniel_t
Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?
I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.
It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1212:07 PM
Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1212:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.
The exact same system has been used on Dutch merchant ships since the 1600s. There are extensions going to each side so he can steer from both hulls though, no need to stand on the center platform.
The steering action is the exact reverse of a normal tiller though, I wonder if they changed that somehow.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1202:00 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.
Don't count on it. They're going to optimize every ounce of righting moment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1203:26 PM
Wow! How Cool is that!
I guess they will indeed be foiling in the AC races, that should liven it up a bit! I can't wait to hear what the Lead Bottom Leaning Society at SA will have to say about this!
Can't wait to see just how fast these things will be!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1204:20 PM
Well, if they do crash, at those speeds, it should be spectacular!
Many years ago when we were having a discussion here about how to get more mainstream TV coverage for sailboat racing, I said we needed to make it more like NASCAR, with faster speeds and more 'crashes'. I guess they finally have!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/1207:47 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
rules do not allow use of the windward foil, I do remember reading something about exceptions (rule 47.3)
Here is the skinny on rule 47.3:
47.3 Preventing windward daggerboard increasing righting moment After starting, an AC72 yacht shall have the windward board draft stripe(s) visible so to confirm that the board is no more than 0.500 m below MWP, unless one of the following applies: (a) the windward board does not penetrate the surface of the water for more than 15 continuous seconds; (b) the yacht is within 300m of a mark; (c) the yacht is within 30 seconds prior to and after tacking or gybing; (d) the yacht is sailing less than 15 knots; (e) the yacht is sailing at less than 90% of its performance relative to the other yacht(s); (f) the yacht is taking a penalty.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/1201:08 AM
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
...Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect. ..
That's probably why you and SA weren't a good fit. ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1202:37 PM
Excellent article on the technology, broadcast television, speed, close up racing, etc. Plus read about the involvement and background of a key player named Stan Honey. Making the America's Cup a spectator sport
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1206:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Those two videos are very interesting, and you see what happens at 2:15 on the last one, when they stuff the bows!
I liked the other video above too, where Juan K talks about the C Class, and says "...what have we been doing the past 20 years, these things are so much more efficient!" (wing rigs).
BUT...we know the C Class did try foiling for awhile, and they gave up on it, right? It wasn't paying off on a closed course, right? Or are some of them still doing it around the bouys? Grant Dalton mentions he's not sure if foiling will pay off on a short bouy type course.
SO...are we seeing "The Next BIG Thing" here, in the evolution of sailing technology, and when can I get some L foils and a wing rig for my F16? ;^)
Like I said a long time ago, just hook two Moths together and off we go!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1206:21 PM
Listening to the comments surrounding the teams, my guess is that they are going to be shooting for a semi-foiling mode off the wind and a near full flotation mode upwind. There is a happy point between weight, available power, and efficient foiling. I think the Moth's are just able to come in under this point with one very light (single-hull) boat so they can foil all the way around a race course efficiently. I don't think we have the technology to have a boat light enough to do this on much of a larger scale yet. While we can definitely build a catamaran to foil to weather, it's suffers with wind and water drag to carry it's own weight. It's going to either sail slowly as the foil drag increases with reduced speed or have to sail so far off the wind in order to keep enough power to stay on foils that same water-borne craft will get to A-mark faster because it can sail much higher.
So, if you give up fully foiling to weather, you have to look at how much foil drag you are willing to carry up to A-mark so you can rocket downwind. My bet is that the happy-point is going to be having just enough foil to make the boat really light on the water while going downwind without becoming completely air-borne on foils. This might also make sense given the fact that they aren't allowed any type of active control surfaces under the water and their racing area is a really choppy piece of water.
The "S" boards on NZ are a good indication of this as well (they can change the angle of attack of the horizontal part of their foil as they lift it).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:19 PM
Timbo, In reference to the C's foiling not working, Magnus Clarke said he thought that the extra horsepower of the AC45's and 72s could remedy the problems they had with "off yer rocker", so I wouldn't compare C's to the 45s or 72s .Apples and Oranges.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:38 PM
I think it's funny that they need a powerboat with 1200 horsepower to keep up with the AC72... talk about carbon footprint
Another question popped into my head. Would slapping a wing on a "regular" catamaran cause problems since it can generate so much more speed, forcing the semi-displacement hulls into a pitch-pole?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1207:56 PM
Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.
I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/1210:29 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.
I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.
Have a big bank account and a bigger ability to keep your boat pointy side up. Jay, with current design hulls I don't think the wing would necessarily force you into a pitchpole, but the extra weight aloft of it can cause pitching moment than can certainly help go glub.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1203:21 AM
I would love to hear Ben's opinion of these AC boats rigs. Where is he now? Is he still racing A cats or is he busy building AC masts?
I did get to see his A cat Wing up close at Gulfport when he was there the year he was testing it, I was amazed at how quickly and easily he was able to step the thing. As he mentions in the aritcle, he tipped the boat up on it's side, next to his trailer box, and then just slid the wing out of the box and hooked it up. It was very quick.
I wish he had spent more time testing and developing it, has anyone seen it (the wing) lately?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/1201:09 PM
He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me. Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it. Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1202:13 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me. Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it. Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280
Thanks for the links and info, interesting stuff! I guess from a speed standpoint, it -might- be a little faster, but from a practical standpoint, having to drop it every night at a regatta, etc, and god forbid you land on it if/when you flip...it could get ugly! A soft sail is pretty easy to roll up after sailing, and it stores in a much smaller box, weighs less, costs less, etc.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/1206:16 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
You don't have to land on it ,just flipping can give you a very expensive , long term repair.
Given the nature of the new owner, I bet that the carbon specialists in his area are salivating :P
Or his indentured boatguy/ crew has alot to sort out, if he hasn't already. My prediction is the wing will be parts for trophies in no time, but I hope I'm way wrong.If I'm not I want a piece.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1202:44 PM
It didn't but.. I would think combined with the pitching moment the angle of attack of curved boards would change so much it could prove to be a hindrance.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/1202:55 PM
Jake, You ready to get a CnC cutter to make Mike new ribs for that wing?
Mike, Nothing personal. I saw,first hand at the LAC, just how fragile those wings are. If you don't flip, you might be OK as far as major damage goes. It was rare for a wing to go out and not have to have something done to it when it came back. From simple Clysar repairs to loading it in the back of a pick-up bed in 100s of pieces.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1201:06 PM
here's a really nice summary of the various states of the teams...and foiling. As per Loick Peyron (always colorful), the bearaways in the bay may produce some moments where you would be glad to be wearing brown pants....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1202:47 PM
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/1203:55 PM
Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/1212:28 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?
Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/1208:36 PM
Pretty cool . . . and smart. The "L" part of the board is a cassette and is interchangeable for different size/shape inserts. Wonder if the Kiwis did something similar.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/1211:29 AM
Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28
Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions. Flexibility?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1201:13 AM
Originally Posted by Andinista
Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28
Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions. Flexibility?
I think it's safe to assume that Oracle has determined that platform flex is not that big of a deal. It seemed that way with the big trimaran too. The other teams have gone to great lengths with the posts and rigging to stiffen up the platforms at the cost of weight and wind drag...better or worse? dunno.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1202:33 AM
Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/1212:32 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!
I've always wondered about that...I know it certainly feels better when the boat is rigid through the waves....but is it faster? People talk about energy lost when a wave makes the platform flex but it is kinda like a spring - you'll get a good bit of that "energy" back on the return...whether that's beneficial or not, I have no idea.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1202:51 PM
From the '70's onward the Tornado got faster the stiffer it became. Before the Marstrom, new Tornado's were fast. Finally Marstrom made the sfiffest Tornado with the autoclave technology, and changing the rear beam to the largest size under class rules helped too. Marstrom would not have gone to a larger (& stiffer) rear beam if it made the boat slower.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1206:17 PM
With foiling its all about light weight, is the extra stiffness on this sort of length of boat going to impede any chance of it foiling, due to the extra weight of the construction needed to prevent twist.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/1208:48 PM
surprise surprise
it seems that fluttering
was tearing the boat apart...
"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:11 PM
Originally Posted by erice
surprise surprise
it seems that fluttering
was tearing the boat apart...
"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:20 PM
Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:25 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I think the flex is used as a foil control, not faster just a way to get around the "no manual control" rule.
How would flex be controlling the foiling? They can move the daggers tilting forward or back to control via a ram. I can't see how the boat flex would help them in any way.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/1202:26 PM
Originally Posted by MN3
Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference
I think that The emirates video said any more than 5 minutes sailing untethered counted as a day.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/14/1202:34 AM
Set your DVR or watch it this Sunday on NBCSN or VERSUS at 2:30 PM EST. The Road to the America's Cup - Oracle Team USA hosted by non other than . . . you guessed it, our AC genius Todd Harris.
"Tag along as WOAS takes an exclusive inside look at the design and construction of the epic 72-foot catamaran the team will be charging into battle with at the 34th Americas Cup in September 2013. Remarkable feats of engineering and copious amounts of training aren't all that it takes to make an America's Cup champion. It also takes heart and perseverance which, luckily, Oracle Team USA has in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1212:43 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by erice
apparently all ok
wing and platform
not so good
more and more both are looking unrepairable
2nd boat can't be launched until feb2013
looks like they shouldn't have dumped the original requirement for a big and small wing
I understand the wing being beyond repair, but the platform too?
I have not seen how the righted it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how te platform got damaged badly. They also said it was badly damamged from foiling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1202:43 PM
It made it back to the dock turtled,never was righted, so it's a safe bet the wing is a complete loss. I was at least hoping they could save the spar. All of you have to know it was inevitable. You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1203:00 PM
I can't imagine what it feels like to go from sitting on the aft part of the boat then rise to 40-50'(est) while the transoms are lifting in the air ...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1204:03 PM
Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.
I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1204:33 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.
I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?
Once you ditch the wing you're not righting that platform without a bigass crane. The wing filling with water was what most likely kept them from righting in the first place. There were not many ways to do it different and accomplish anything. Faster righting before the wing filled is about it, and the current seemed to prevent that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1205:36 PM
Thanks for the clarification guys. Lee I'm aware of the tidal based current flows in San Fran, just surprised they didn't motor against it but given the problems Cat_Fever outlined that wouldn't have worked.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/1209:27 PM
Quote
No drift Sam. There's a HUGE tide current there
Don't forget that the outgoing "tide" carrries the entire contents of the Sacramento River as well.
Once outside the Bridge you face the wrath of the entire north Pacific. The north shoal of the outer mouth of the GG is called the Potato Patch. Relativly shallow water, only 25-35 feet deep, makes a tough place to turtle a 131' mast. Huge swells can pump up waves in the 30 foot range but are themselves torn to shreds by the huge current.
Notice the condition of the AC72 right after the flip (pretty clean), then again after and hour of being pounded. I'm surprised there's anything left. Typical day in SF...7 knots westbound outgoing current, 30+ knots of wind coming in from the west, all funneled through the narrow GG. Nice place to turn downwind on a 72 foot cat. Like Butch Cassidy said, "Who are those guys?"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1203:24 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
...You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.
Sorry but multihulls pitchpole and break their riggs eversince... its just bad luck if you, me, Oracle or someone else will be the next one day ;-) Here it looks to me as if the recovery and the counteraction to not let the mast, wing go down was too slow. Maybe they had just no idea, never planned that?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1206:50 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?
Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...
And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...
Those foils must have had incredible loads on them during that event...and you would think that when those lifting boards point to the bottom that they drive harder to the bottom. I heard mention that the foil loads tore up the hulls during that dive and they didn't even know if the hulls were repairable.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1208:12 PM
Also, the main L-foils at that high negative angle of attack must have produced a lot of drag and contributed to slowing the boat, so in addition to pulling the whole boat down, they contributed to the torque loads that forced the bows down.
It will be interesting to see what design changes come out of this. I'm picturing main foils with super strong hinges so that the L-foil part swings to near vertical when top loaded, and back to horizontal under normal upward loads. I wonder if such a thing is possible with modern materials, and if the drag and weight of such a hinge would be acceptable. It would not be an angle of attack control per se, so it seems like it might be acceptable under the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/1209:01 PM
We all have had the same problem at every bear away, think A mark in a good blow, many times with the same results (pitchpole).
As you turn from going upwind to downwind, you've got several additional forces all happening at once, to include the centrifical force the rig exerts as it's being swung in the big arc, the added drive from the (momentarlily, until you accelerate) greater aparant wind which is now puhsing the bows down, not lifting the windward hull up, and the added drag of going faster, on the boards which also pulls the bows down, until they get into foiling mode.
From watching that video several times, it looked like a classic bear away nose dive. As they bear away and unroll the jib, the bows go down and never really come back up...they just keep going deeper and deeper as they accelerate, until it's too deep to recover. Use full screen to see this:
On our boats, we can all run to the back, to keep the bows up when we get to A mark and we know it's coming, but they can't shift as much (relative) balast aft, as we do in that situation.
I still think it needs more volume in the bows to help prevent this nose diving. That was the cure for the early Blades, as well as some of the A cats.
You may recall years ago, when the mega cat Playstation had to have it's bows modified, enlarged, etc. The first time they took it out in big wind and waves, they also stuffed the bows and nearly pitched it right over.
The only beach cat I've felt 'safe' on in a big wind bear away was the Inter 20, and it's known for it's huge, fat bows. When I look at the design of the AC72's, I see A cat like, skinny bows. Great for keeping weight off...but not so good for preventing a picth pole.
Remember, they cannot simply 'dump the main' when it gets blowing too hard and you want to bear away, like we can. If they are going to keep going out in 25knots, they'll need bigger bows, or a much better righting system!
It looked very similar to this earlier pitchpole, on the 45' version, nearly identicle;
Now, watch this next video of the first sail of Oracle 17. Pay particular attention to what the bows are doing, they always seem to be pointing down. Near the end of the vid. at 1:50, they are just cruising back to the dock, not pushing it, not even blowing too hard, but going downwind, and the bows are looking like they want to dive.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1212:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1201:36 AM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?
Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...
And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...
They are adjustable. They can adjust the angle of attack. There is a learning curve here and they missed the setting for the conditions at hand. If you check out Sailing Anarchy ,Tide Tech shows that the conditions changed when they made that last bear away. Had they had the time or knowledge to set the foil properly they may have been alright.
They are not counting on forward buoyancy to keep the bows up. They are counting on the foils for that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1201:59 AM
Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1203:39 AM
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...
Past a certain point, you are just screwed. IF you can keep your speed up through the turn you are better off as you apparent wind will remain more forward. When the boat stuffs hard enough to go over, I don't think anything you can do will save it. Sail in, sail out, it's only going to change the angle with which the mast hits the water. Once it stuffs, the momentum and wind pressure are working against you and you have no helm. I've been out where it took three or four attempts to bear away to get through the turn. The trick was to get through the turn as fast as the foils would let you when the waves and wind are just right. The faster you can make that turn, the better off you will be. Get your speed as fast as possible, hang on, and yank it through hopefully just short of your rudders stalling.
These guys were just hugely overpowered and as they bore away, the rudders were probably stalled and about 1 second later and another second after that, there wasn't enough rudder in the water to have any influence over the direction of the boat.
That wing is ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FEET TALL!!! That's a lot of tomahawk momentum!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1206:34 AM
There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon that you could inflate to stop a mast turtling, would something like that have stopped this wing filling with water which stopped the righting?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1208:44 AM
Originally Posted by JeffS
There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon
... you can buy one. Just search for: Secumar Auto Inflation Anti-Inversion Mast Float
Somehow not very common. I've never seen a boat equipped with it. Propably because getting a beach cat out of the 100% turtle position by manpower is not so difficult, as far as the boat is not too wide like Tornado, H21, or others.
That "airbag-recovery" could work on any boat I guess.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/1210:19 PM
After watching the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drgglIebuQY) I think they buried the windward bow first. Can anyone confirm my observation? If this in fact happened it is possible that someone just dialed too much angle of attack to the leeward foil or not enough AoA to the leeward one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/23/1209:11 PM
I have it on a relatively high authority that after the big wave of water rushed over the deck, there were only 2 people left on the boat for the ensuing pitchpole.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/1201:29 PM
Why would they add the vinyl?
Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?
That and it's much harder for the RC to pick out one 'over early' white hull out of a crowd of white hulls.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/28/1202:43 AM
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Film is lighter than paint and easier to fix. That is why Formula cars use it.
Unique Chrome Finish The color of the Formula 1 car was a very special wish from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes. For AkzoNobel Automotive & Aerospace Coatings, whose highest ambition is to always get color right, this request was a challenge to relish. Working closely with the McLaren paintshop team we exclusively developed the unique and spectacular looking chrome livery which millions of people see every race weekend.
“It has to provide the right impact that you are looking for through the television cam, when the car comes by with high speed. Our brand needs to stand out and to be clear. And of course, we want the other drivers to be intimidated of what’s coming behind them." Jonathan Neale, Managing Director, McLaren Racing.
“I love the car I drive. I think it’s the most beautiful car on the whole grid. The paint job is the best - I think it’s the most stunning car out there," said Lewis Hamilton during a BBC radio interview about his Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-26.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/04/1209:26 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Why would they add the vinyl?
Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?
As far as the AC and its expenses are concerned. I am sure making the sponsors happy to keep the money coming is pretty high on the priority list.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/08/1206:24 PM
So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/09/1203:20 AM
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?
Designing a boat for 80% reaching and designing a boat for refined windward leeward are two very different things.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1203:59 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .
O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1207:59 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .
O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
Obfuscation. Public released video. I wouldn't rely to heavily on what you see.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/1208:08 PM
This isn't really knowledge but, apparently the 33's are test platforms and they are trying every type of foil they can think of on them. even the 72's have 2 different foils often. from the photos it looks like the curved part of the foil is mostly in the hull when in the down position. the business end is an "L". the cant of the "L" is something to play with as are the tip foils shape/angle, etc. Rudders have similar aspects to play with as well. it seems to me that an end plate on a daggerboard would help quite a bit to windward as well as become a hydro-foil off the wind. finding a happy medium between these 2 points of sail and the characteristics of the end plate would be a job, and require all sorts of testing.
there is some debate as to whether the extreme fineness ratio of the 72's may be fast enough to eliminate the need to fully foil in an upwind/downwind course with some 1-2 minute legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/23/1201:36 PM
I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/24/1212:45 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.
Agreed, the no foiling to windward seems to be the consensus. Most likely they are canting the lee board for sailing off the wind, which when combined with the wing tip or "L" gives the enough vertical lift to fully foil. Their speed may or may not increase, and their angle downwind may improve. Some speculation says both speed and angle will improve from foiling. They are limited in the number of 72 dagger boards that they are allowed to make, but they can make as many SL33 or ac 45 dagger boards as they want to help figure this new development out. Mr. Melvin is on the design team for NZ so it makes sense for them to use the 33 as a test platform. Atrtemis focused on the big wing first and don't appear to be in agreement that fully foiling is the way to go. the original mockup of the 72s showed banana boards, but i imagine that they work better on small cats that are crew weight trimmed, and big tris that have a regular board in the center hull. once they tried "L" and "T" foils they didn't look back. can you imagine flying into the leeward gate at 40 knts., having to round up and crank the daggerboard to a de-canted position? what a learning curve this contest must have. On the jibes it seems like they would set the new board before the jibe, but when 17 capsized going into their jibe they still had the 1 board up. if it had been down maybe both hulls would have been clear of the water and nosing in would not have been an issue.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/1309:50 PM
it's probably the one that broke...but I don't understand why they have pictures of dagger board molds and the like in that posting. It seems out of character.
Somebody mentioned this early on in this thread and was spot on . . .
“The amount that the platform racked (twisted) was a trade-off with weight and windage in the structure of the boat,” he explained. “That trade-off is still there. We’ve made some subtle changes that will reduce the racking, but again, it’s a design decision trading off windage and weight.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1311:34 AM
I have wondered why some of the foils haven't been shaped like the new OR foils. From my aviation days, it seems the dihedral there would create some extra stability.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1312:38 PM
Dont really understand why the helming position is so low (apart from windage), shouldnt he be able to oversee the whole boat from that position? (Especially with matchracing?).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1305:42 PM
Great interview with Grant Dalton! Enlightening indeed.
Dalton referring to Oracle 17 "It's going to go like stink upwind!"
NZ named their second AC72 - Aotearoa (Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand, meaning the land of the long white cloud, said to the the first sighting of New Zealand by the first migration.)
This is first of a series of four with Grant Dalton, Kevin Shoebridge (COO on the shorecrew), Dean Barker (Skipper on the sailing aspects) and Nick Holroyd (Design Director).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1307:35 PM
I find it interesting that their daggerboards are so far forward...I presume this enhances straight line speed at the expense of tacking speed. If so, I suppose they're not planning on any tacking duels.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/1311:29 PM
This Dean Barker interview is the second in the series of four. We've already seen team boss Grant Dalton. . . . to be followed up with Kevin Shoebridge (shore boss and COO on the logistics of the AC72 campaign) and Technical Director, Nick Holroyd. Enjoy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1312:41 AM
They're that far forward to allow the boat to balance fore & aft when up on the foil. It's not directly under the CG due to the dynamic forces on the wing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1311:24 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51
The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/1311:49 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51
The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.
I'm pretty sure they had two different foils in the boat. The starboard board was straight and had the inverted V-wing with the knuckle at the joint. The port board appeared to have a soft curve to the length of it and had a curved radius shaping smoothly into the horizontal foil with no knuckle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/1302:15 AM
So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?
Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/1302:33 AM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?
Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?
I don't know about water ballast - but I know they can control the fore/aft angles of the daggerboard trunks. They're aren't allowed to have movable foils/flaps that articulate under the water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/17/1302:53 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Watch at 1:41 in video. On a bear away, the platform begins to pitch and immediately the lee bow rises in attitude and the lee hull foils at a moderately low speed. Could this be the result of adjusting the angle of attack of the foil? Seems very responsive.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/25/1312:03 AM
"he has a set of button that control the shape of the wing – the camber and twist. But the difference is that those buttons trigger the hydraulics and the hydraulics are powered by somebody grinding. Every time he presses a button it spends some of the hydraulic pressure and that has to be topped up by somebody grinding."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1302:56 PM
I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.
I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1303:01 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.
I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1303:41 PM
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1304:52 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners. It's not all that different than how we show up on the beach for an event like the Tybee with sponsor decals.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1309:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/1310:06 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
No way condom sales could support that Team. Sheiks. Tim you're nuts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/1312:46 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.
Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
hmmm...true. They're just less in the face of things I suppose.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/1305:23 PM
I would be really surprised if ETNZs defence will be held anywhere else than Auckland. For completely selfish reasons I hope either Artemis or LR win the cup (less travel!).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/1301:35 PM
Good read. Two part interview with Oracle's COO Grant Simmer. Some good stuff regarding the platform racking, AC development and bunch of other goodies. Fill your coffee cup . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/1302:05 PM
I wonder if they've got bladders full of helium in the hulls. I thought back when Larry won the cup on the big Tri, someone said they had some helium in the amas to lighten it up?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/1302:58 PM
Aero beams are primarily for drag reduction. They are trying to re-attach the flow aft of the tramp and keep it attached forward of the tramp. Attached flow is much less drag than fully detached flow (i.e the wake coming off a round or square beam).
Remember the prototypes on hull #1? They didn't build them there for a reason; CFD is good but modelling separated flow effectively is more of a rare art form than a science at this point. Much easier to instrument your system in a wind tunnel, i.e put tell tales all over your ribbed beam and design the solid beam from there.
Gonna be a fun summer with the AC and C-class action...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/1302:20 AM
The Wind Gods - Official Trailer
The blurb released with the trailer describes it as:
'Awe-inspiring boats that reflect the unlimited reach of human ingenuity, breathtaking views, action, tension, excitement, consummate skill, the pursuit of lifelong dreams and the tempestuous romance between sailors and the sea, set against a soaring musical score: this is The Wind God's, the story of the 33rd America's Cup race.
'In a quest to bring the oldest trophy in International Sports back to America, Oracle Corporation's Larry Ellison organizes an elite team to sail USA-17, the most technologically advanced sailboat ever built, in a challenge against the defending Swiss team Alinghi, which has held the cup for seven years.
'The film documents the effort from start to finish, with intimate portraits of the competitors, fascinating insights into the cup's history, and sweeping cinematography of the race. But more than that, The Wind Gods is a tribute to the adventurous spirit that leads men to test their limits, by challenging the elements, the sea, and fate.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1306:53 PM
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1307:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
$10 says you have to dig deep to find a catamaran reference on there (I haven't looked).
OK...I looked - I take that back. It actually looks pretty nice.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/1307:15 PM
dug a little deeper...and the "detail" on catamarans is really bad. It points out nearly as many negatives as positives and glosses over the majority of catamaran sailing. There shouldn't be any "direct" negatives listed on any of these 'more detail' pages.
Quote
WHAT Multihull sailboats come in a variety of types and sizes. Catamarans have two hulls, while trimarans feature three. In general, multihulls are faster and lighter than monohulls. However, multihulls are typically slower at turning. These boats do not have a keel.
WHY Larger Catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats. They are also built for speed, which makes them great racing boats. Also, they do not capsize as easily. The stable platform or deck area improves safety and helps keep you dry. Larger catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats too. Small multihulls are typically simple, inexpensive boats. They are also easy to launch from the beach.
So, let's see the negatives listed for small (non cruising): slower at turning, do not have a keel, unstable and capsize easily (listed as an anti-negative for a 'big one'), wet (anti-negative again), and some might say "simple" is a negative if not just a mischaracterization written by someone that has clearly never set foot on a small multihull.
Is that the two most exciting pictures they could find of multihull sailing? What is up with choosing that top one - it looks like a trainwreck just happened and the second one (while cute) doesn't show any excitement. Compare that to the others while you're on there too.
compare that to the "small boat sailing" and you'll wonder why anyone sails catamarans at all (besides large cruisers).
Quote
WHAT Small boat sailing is a simple, inexpensive way to get started in the sport. The fundamental basics of sailing are most easily learned in small boats. Many small boats are designed specifically for youth, and most provide a lifetime of enjoyment for adults as well. Because of their size and simplicity, many small sailboats can be sailed single handed or with a single crew member. Small boat performance, depending on the design, may range from stable and relaxing to wet and wild.
WHY Small boat sailing can bring you relaxing days on the water, adventurous family fun or challenging competition. By learning to sail a small boat with a US Sailing certified instructor, you’ll learn the skills you need to build your confidence and sail the boat effectively and safely. If you become a boat owner, small boats are affordable and easy to transport (car-top or trailer) and to store. They are simple to rig, allowing you to get on the water faster, and enjoy more time sailing.
let's see...negatives for 'small boats'? errrr....none.
Come to think of it, what is up with the line clearly drawn between Multihull, small boats, and large boats? Can a multihull not also be a small boat and a large boat? Why isn't it "small boat; dingy and multihull", "Large boat; monohull and multihull" or something. This is dumb. Not any of the other descriptions for the other "types" of sailing means lists any negatives but the multihull version is full of them.
Crap like this makes me glad I choose not to renew my US Sailing membership for the first time in a long time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1303:28 AM
OK....clearly I'm the only one that sees the issues with the way the Multihulls are presented there - but I promise we got about 1/10 the marketing of any other "boat type" on there. It really is a marketing faux pas to point out so many negatives for something you are trying to "promote". Who proof read that and thought it was OK?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1307:20 AM
The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better. Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/1312:27 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better. Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?
Lame, yes...negative? no. There is no contact on that site anywhere. I've sent a message to info@ussailing.org
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/08/1302:24 PM
they wrote me back with assurance that they aren't intentionally favoring any type of boat and that they will review it and be consulting their multihull constituents. Apparently, they looked up my membership status.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/1309:03 PM
quoting Sail World "Video shown on a local TV Channel shows the boat completely upside down, and with the wingsail smashed, in a similar outcome to that which occurred on the October 6, 2012 incident with Oracle Team USA."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/1309:14 PM
Coast Guard Lt. Jeannie Crump says the Artemis Racing catamaran carrying a Swedish flag capsized just after 1 p.m. Thursday (UST) near Treasure Island, the former naval station located in the bay.
All 12 people on board have been accounted for.
Crump says the injured crew member was taken to a nearby yacht club and would be moved to the hospital. She didn't know the extent of the person's injuries.
The 11 other people on board were transferred to a support boat operated by Oracle Racing, which is defending its America's Cup title from last year in San Francisco this summer.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1312:02 PM
A report in Wired.com said:
Preliminary reports indicate Artemis’s boat didn’t capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin 'beams' — the two girders that lash the two narrow hulls together. The boat had been in and out of the shed numerous times in an attempt to correct those problems. Today, however, the forward beam — the girder in front of the sail — gave way during a practice run. The two hulls, no longer connected, began sailing in slightly different directions. This caused one hull to snap just forward of the aft beam, and the mast, held up by high-tension rigging connected to the front of the hulls, simply fell over. The boat began to cartwheel, ultimately trapping Simpson underneath and drowning him.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1312:06 PM
I wonder if there's any video of the actual pitch pole. From the article, Andrew was the tactician, which I guess would mean he would be at the back of the boat, probably wearing some type of tether or harness. If the boat went deep bows down, he'd be wayyy up in the air, either tossed from up high with the boat landing on him, or tied to the wrong side of the boat as it went upside down.
And as mentioned, he may have been unconscious when he went into the water. I guess we'll hear from the survivors as to what happened to Andrew, eventually.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1301:50 PM
horrible that this would have happened, but I guess with all this new stuff (technologies, materials, design) a catastrophic breakdown was bound to happen at some point.
Heck, even a "regular" capsize would put one hull almost 4 stories in the air. A fall from that (even on water) would likely cause serious injury.
Let's add about 40 knots of boatspeed to that equation and I shudder to think what "could" happen.
I recall something about "Drum of England" having a keel fall off and causing some injuries, and I'm sure I could bring up all kinds of fatalities due to boat breakdowns (mono and multi) if I searched, but it's still sad to read of tragedies like this..
What would really add insult to injury is if no recommendations are made to improve safety based on their investigation
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/1303:13 PM
After the Oracle capsize all the teams worked together to address and improve a multi-level safety and recovery protocol. You would guess it would address helmets, portable compressed air, chase boats with doctors, etc. But, I have yet to find a picture or video of the Artemis guys wearing spare air. Many pictures and video of the team in April where there is no spare air visible here, , here, here and here.
Very obvious that Oracle is wearing them. Does anybody know for sure if Artemis was wearing spare air or any type of portable air system yesterday?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/1306:30 PM
"I hope like hell that whoever survives this thing and wins it changes the boat class to anything safer than these God-forsaken death traps."
So the unidentified sailor is willing to risk his life to be a boat whore, and then whine about it.All about the money. Maybe Darwin should cash the check on this douche. Yep, it's dangerous ,and YOU CHOSE to do it, nobody forced you. No wonder you want to be anonymous. I "hope like hell" that person isn't anybody I ever had any respect for.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/1306:46 PM
I am pretty disappointed but not surprised by the reaction to all of this. I guess it's impossible to consider thy the crew on these boats has a choice, most of them I have seen on videos seemed pretty thrilled to be on the 72s. All athletes take a risk of some kind, you are the only one responsible for deciding when to call it quits.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/1301:37 PM
Is this general opinion of the AC72 in similar fashion to the opinion of Open 70s when they all got destroyed, or all the canting keel boats which keep breaking?
Are we supposed to hate all cutting edge innovation because it's not "bomb proof"?
" . . . In the week previous people were bidding in excess of $20,000 for a ride in an AC72 . . ." "This correspondent sailed at speeds of 43 knots on Emirates Team NZ's AC72 in 25kts of breeze, for around three hours"
" . . . only option was to take shelter behind an island as wait for the wind to abate, or take a risky sail ride downwind– which they did . . . "
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.
My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.
My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.
Yep, and SA just added a blurb about it on their homepage.
Meanwhile, other international media outlets not mentioned here are continuing to report the original quote as I type this.
I imagine we will hear some official statements tomorrow after Tuesday's planned events.
‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1310:18 AM
Basically all that is keeping these boats from collapsing is a few wires pulling the whole thing together. What would happen on a beachcat when the dolphin-stiker breaks? Probably something very similar? (frontbeam collapse).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1311:59 AM
I've seen it happen on a Hobie 21. Dolphin striker fail at the center connection. Front cross bar folded. Ripped the rear cross bar out of the hull. Mast went over. Damaged hull filled with water. Even with a power boat is was a minor nightmare getting the boat(pieces) back to the beach. See any similarities?
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Mike
Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.
They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.
What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.
The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.
I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.
Mike
Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.
Agreed,
With half of the crowd convinced that this is all his fault, I don't think there was anything he could have said.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1312:45 PM
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1312:47 PM
Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing. It might actually be inappropriate if he did. Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1301:08 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mike
Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??
None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.
This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?
They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1302:22 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.
I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mike
Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??
None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.
This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?
They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.
Actually, their team did have a somber statement on their website almost immediately. Their owner has never really been in the forefront of the public image of the team.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:12 PM
Originally Posted by catman
The pioneers always take the arrows.
The only thing LE and RC are guilty of is trying to take sailing to the next level. I thank them.
Some are clamoring for all the evidence to be released. Keep in mind there's a active police investigation ongoing.
I doubt very much you'll see or hear anything until that's complete.
I suspect that, although it appears unrelated at this point, we may see a recommendation lowering of the maximum wind range come out of the committee's findings. Just a gut feel.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:41 PM
Perhaps they will.
However boats can always fail in one way or another causing death regardless of wind speed. Imagine one boat foiling t-boning a boat not foil borne.
Having a guy trapped underwater alive and not having the ability to find and free him in a time frame to prevent drowning or further peril is something they have to address.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/1303:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing. It might actually be inappropriate if he did. Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1302:24 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's. Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . . Grinding Stations
with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1302:40 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's. Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . . Grinding Stations
with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?
Did you see the foot buttons for switching gears on the NZ and LR boats. Cool. My understanding is the grinding stations do nothing more than pump up/maintain the hydraulic reserve.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1308:49 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
That would make sense.
I think they need some bicycle mounted pumps!
yes, especially if those grinding stations don't have to reverse the direction of rotation to switch gears (I think the first few generations did switch direction to change gears like a standard winch) - which would make the bicycle style inefficient (I don't think I can pedal backwards nearly as effectively)
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1309:37 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1310:29 PM
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!
Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/1311:23 PM
Pedal powered sailing tools are nothing new. Here's a photo of an on-deck blender.
The latest human powered airplanes (and blenders) are using a rowing machine style of human power, giving up on the bicycle style. Something about using only the big muscle groups. If they got really strong at that technique a grinder/rower wouldn't ever run across the tramp, they'd simply take the whole width in single power jump, like a frog. Just don't overshoot.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1302:43 PM
I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1305:03 PM
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1305:25 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1307:17 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
Russell Coutts tried - and he was told to get stuffed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1308:02 PM
Is it me, or has the AC always been a boat race between uber-wealthy narcissists? That's what makes it so entertaining
Would you rather watch "Lifestyles of the lower middle class & nominally known" on television? I think not.
Having Robin Leech ride in my half-destroyed car with his camera crew would be a little un-nerving, but he could help keep that window from leaking while he's there...
Suspending racing for a short while until people can determine if there is something inherently wrong with ALL the boats sounds reasonable. But if it turns out one team or boat was cutting the margin too thin, then the rest of the teams shouldn't be penalized
I've recovered a few bodies of offshore power boat racers in my earlier days (dive rescue), but I don't recall the industry cancelling the entire fleet/division/calendar because of one (or a few) accidents.
I'm sure that some of the accidents may have actually been the result of design deficiencies, too...
I recall diving on one boat (maybe a 60 foot tri) that stuffed hard in a wave while rounding a mark and killed the throttle hand (traumatic asphyxia from what we figured - our response was literally 30 seconds from when the boat crashed to our getting hands on him, but CPR attempts were unsuccessful). The boat literally disintegrated below us (our safety team was following in a small helicopter at about 100' asl). The driver denied being hurt, but we got him packaged (backboard/CS collar) on the rescue boat and later found out he had a C-6 fracture.
While tragic for all involved, the general racing community believed it was one of the inherent perils of the "game" and soldiered on. I would hope to see the same out of the AC
Even back in the early AC events, the danger of injury or worse was always present. A parted sheet or blown block could easily maime or kill a sailor. Collisions between boats have and will break bones or worse.
Booms swinging can knock sailors overboard unconscious, and until recently I don't recall any of them wearing PFDs while training or competing.
Learn all we can from this incident, apply those lessons to protect life and property, and let's develop the sport and its associated technologies in a safe and effective manner.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/1308:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.
I think that was tried but NZ killed the idea, I think it was proposed after the OR crash.
It might have made a much better event, I imagine it would have been much more affordable with more teams jumping in. Probably more teams doing the series as well.
On the other hand it would have have been quite the same as the big badass 72s either. It's not the AC without the wealthiest teams competing with the biggest and baddest boats.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1301:43 AM
Originally Posted by pgp
I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.
Patrizio Bertelli: No. Look, this thing about airbags is a stupidity.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1310:52 AM
The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.
Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a high tech development race.
Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.
30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.
I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.
I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1311:37 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.
Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a a high tech development race.
Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.
30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.
I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.
I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.
Actually watching the after race interviews with Ted Turner and Tom Blackaller were awesome.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1311:54 AM
Yeah, Ted was a hoot, but the actual racing, at 7kts or less in light air, was pretty boring. Once one boat got ahead, it was pretty much game over. Not that the last one, with the big cat vs. big tri was any different in that regard, and even with two foiling AC72's it might end up being just a drag race, ie. first boat across the start line won't be caught, unless it breaks, which looks entirely possible at this point!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1312:27 PM
Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?
And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/1307:10 PM
Originally Posted by pgp
Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?
And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.
They were talking about mast head air bags...which is silly because they break apart shortly after capsizing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/19/1303:16 PM
"The Artemis team has yet to indicate its clear intention to continue. The boat that broke up cannot be sailed and its repair may be hampered if reports are true that the second boat, the one it intended to campaign in, was damaged in transit from Sweden and will require repairs."
Really? You have to wonder about the leadership of this group.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1301:25 AM
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:14 PM
Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:36 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.
I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/1302:44 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.
Sort of like flying the spin with no mainsheet tension?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1301:35 PM
Ours at school would overheat idling on the ground if you were not careful. That was also turning a prop pushing a tremendous amount of air over it. Those are also prone to hydro locking from oil draining into the lower cylinders, I don't see anyway to turn it over by hand.
What would really be bad butt is a rotary radial, pretty flipping dangerous for that application.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1307:06 PM
The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride. Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.
I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1308:11 PM
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride. Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.
I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.
I'm not sure about that - it's just the crank/cam that is spinning - the pistons are still just going up and down in the cylinder sleeves.
But...here's probably a better idea from that perspective (the cooling issue gets worse). You probably also want to put some tape or velcro around your left pant leg.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/1310:19 PM
Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...
Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1302:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...
Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.
Mike
Mike, We're just a couple out of thousands of a-holes with an opinion. It really doesn't matter what you or I think. I don't have anything invested in it other than a t-shirt and the time I spend viewing. Enjoy commenting here once and a while but certainly not going to argue about it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1306:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website
PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.
The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
On a side note, US Sailing updated the multihull detail on www.startsailing.org (presumably from my email). They removed the negative stuff, added a little, and now it doesn't make much sense (cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach?)...whatever
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/1306:28 PM
cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach...
I bet MOST of the world will understand that because they have seen the glossy bare boat advertisments of a cruising mulit tied up to a tree on some island resort beach...
Of course it is beach launched... You walk off the beach and launch your Gunboat.... QED!
Some interesting stuff in there. Capsize, and it's officially game over...
Like you could recover a 72, and start racing in hopes of the other guy flipping? These aren't Hobie 16s... I'm pretty sure that no one sailing these is thinking about the race while the boat is on its side, and it's not like the other boat is going to be able to offer more help than the RIBs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1304:25 AM
Do I read correctly in the new rules that they are limited to two soft sails so the wing is dead. If so how long to build a mast and sail and get back on the water?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1305:18 PM
If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/1306:51 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...
Mike
You win! FYI B.O.S.= Balls of Steel . . . and he's got 'em.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/1304:18 PM
Just watched this on the big screen in 1080p. Check it out. (mark :30 to 1:05) Amazing cinematography, incredible image stabilization, and all from a chase boat. Anybody know why the white helmet? At one point Newton is wearing it, then you see Falcone wearing it. Does the orange colored jersey designate anything?
Bucket list: 1) experience space travel 2) a ride on this beauty
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1312:33 PM
Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once "the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1301:23 PM
busy guy
Originally Posted by mummp
Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once "the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/1303:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Undecided
I meant the team - I guess specifically - Dalton.
Love them or hate them, you can't deny that their program is very impressive for such a small country.
Oracle will have to really get things together to be able to beat them, 2nd boat isn't as smooth as I hoped it would be.
Latest video from the kiwis:
I think it's way too early to start the who's ahead and who's behind stuff. First the Kiwis have to win the LV. I wouldn't take the Italians lightly. The latest videos I've seen shows US17 doing just fine. Like AC 33, we will learn much when the horn sounds.
CORRECTION. This will NOT be broadcast today on 60 minutes but on the series "60 Minutes Sports", this Wednesday, June 5 at 9 p.m. on SHOWTIME. Showtime schedule here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/04/1309:41 PM
The Artemis Racing team, with Nathan Outteridge at the helm, has returned to practice on San Francisco Bay.
The team took to the water in its AC45 catamaran early in the afternoon on Tuesday. "A good day to get back out on San Francisco Bay in our foiling AC45," the team tweeted.
Artemis Racing hadn't sailed in nearly a month, following a May 9th training accident in the first of its two AC72 catamarans
Bundy's quote: Everyone is grinding, the boat is so physical and because everything is happening so fast as well, everyone just clicks in and grinds it in. Nobody is really just dedicated to one role. All the grinders can switch into everyone's winch so they can switch back and forth. So for a hoist or something they can all just click in and grind.Source and good read!
Artemis' Cayard: “We have 38 hydraulic cylinders. We want to avoid running hydraulic piping to each of them, because that would be heavy, so we have electrovalves embedded in the wing to actuate the hydraulics. But if you had two wires, positive and negative, running to each electrovalve, your wing would look like a PG&E substation, and that’s heavy too, so we use a CAN-bus [controlled area network] with far fewer wires. Still, it’s incredibly complex.
“We wind up with lot of hydraulics,” Cayard says, “and the America’s Cup rules don’t allow stored power, so two of our eleven guys—we think, two—will be grinding a primary winch all the race long. Not to trim, but to maintain pressure in the hydraulic tank so that any time someone wants to open a hydraulic valve to trim the wing, there will be pressure to make that happen.”
ETNZ's Rod Davis: "There are eight grinding pedestals, 30 buttons to change linkage to drive different winches (twice as many as the old boats because you have two hulls to sail from), 190kg boards to go up and down, hydraulics that make an big jet aircraft look like a kids toy - and the boat is 46ft wide"
"The 37 safety recommendations involve Protocol changes, Class Rule changes (the design parameters for the boats), and Racing Rules of Sailing changes (how the races will be conducted). The Regatta Director had received verbal commitment to the safety recommendations, however, when he asked for teams to sign off on each of the changes in writing, a couple of the teams refused."
"Working together to run a safe event, GGYC, ACEA and America’s Cup Race Management (ACRM) submitted the Marine Permit Application with all 37 safety recommendations attached. Assuming the permit is issued, the Competitors will be required to comply with the safety recommendations because they will have become regulations of the event – Art. 16."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/1308:23 PM
My guess is that the sailors will buy into the new program without the smelly litigations. How the corporations react to them may become a worthy note, but if the OA and the sailors vote them in by practice, 'nuf said. :-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/1309:54 PM
Bert, I somewhat agree with you. These platforms were designed and optimized from scratch for the prescribed wind range. To change that at the 12th hour is the problem, and unfortunate due to the Artemis Simpson tragedy. All the teams are just jockeying for their ideal wind speed. But who really knows if the CG said guys if you want your permit, you need to drop the upper wind limit. Hum.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/1311:24 AM
"What this means is that contrary to what Barclay is telling the teams and the world, they had better agree during the mediation or there is not going to be an AC34.
Apparently, somebody is running around claiming that section 16 of the Protocol, which requires compliance with governmental laws and regulations, gives the IJ the power to alter the Protocol and Rules on the basis of safety. That is a laugher. It does not pass the straight face test."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/1302:47 PM
I think both Oracle and ETNZ are holding back. Neither team wants to disclose how fast they really can go. I watched a lot of dial up maneuvers yesterday. Both teams were doing drills where they parked, turned down, and either hooked up or pealed away into a gybe and run. Lots of typical match race per-start drills.
Next week we will see both Oracle a boats on the bay training against each other. Lots of action on the with Oracle 1 & 2, ETNZ, Luna Rossi, and the Artemis AC45 all on the same body of water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/23/1305:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Funny, its the exact same gybe just from a slightly different angle from than the one Mike shot.
Indeed it is. There are a couple more foiling gybes in the 20 minute video that the same author posted a couple weeks ago. Rule 47.3 will apply during the gybes and they look like they are well within the time limit. ETNZ has improved from 17 seconds to 11 seconds regarding the boards. Oracle looks like they're still working to perfect the foiling gybe. Could be a game changer if the racing is tight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdPZWgN0Qc
Battling with the press, particularly at an individual level, is probably not in the best interest of the America's Cup organizers. They don't control the outflow of information...they're better off releasing generic non-pointing press releases making clarifications and staying out of the mud. Gladwell usually has his stuff together too and going toe to toe with him probably isn't going to accomplish much. Strange behavior.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1304:16 PM
Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1304:35 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Mike
It's not that simple - the Oracle boats have lower aerodynamic profiles than ETNZ, which has more volume up front to counteract pitching.
Allowing rudder elevators would give a significant advantage to Oracle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1305:50 PM
Rudder elevators, wings, tips, whatever your cultural area calls them are becoming "the new performance stimulator" across the board. From A Cats to AC 72s there is evidence and growing faith that lifting foils add stabilization.
The rudder elevators, do, in fact, reward good driving and sailhandling! This makes it arguable as a safety feature in the light of two other AC teams supporting Emirates since have made hull modifications which they claim make the boat safer.
Now the sailing jury will decide which is the modern path to safety - high performance control (Oracle) or the 20th century approach by the whiners (Others sans elevators).
Could this be a ploy for "more time to train?" The move certainly adds drama for the audience. Let us hope that safety through modern design and athletic performance prevails over the traditional 'displacement (adding weight) approach' for safety. The Jury is out... postpone racing for higher speeds and thrills in lighter air??? But, Oracle may have stepped outside the lifelines for the sake of modernism a titch too late...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1306:27 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.
I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1307:25 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.
Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.
I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.
I agree with that. Added to the situation is that Oracle has been using them for several months as training wheels so they have additional time learning to use them and possibly refining them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1307:55 PM
That's the key to all this. The rules clearly state how they can be changed, unanimous vote by all competitors. Why would ETNZ let Oracle modify the rules this late in the game? It's a ploy by Oracle, it's disgusting, and really mars the whole AC. Oh wait it's the AC and they'd rather be in court than on the water.
Call me when the full flying AC45's become the standard and they have 20 teams on the water. Till then I'll be watching the C-class and going sailing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/1308:58 PM
In context may I add this related to the Texel Race from Steve Green (BAMA)... Texel.NDL (G.Ruesink, Nico Boon et al) and SCHRS.EU (Sunnuncks, Newhirst) w/SCHRS.US (Schneider) confirmed no 2013 rating adjustments for T-Foil Rudders (see Nacra F-20 Carbon S-Foils w/L and T-Rudder SkyDrive.LINK). Maybe next year.
Team Oracle has gained some knowledge of exacting the angle of attack for the theory by practicing with the adjustable elevators. Now, in beach cat terms...
My guess is the NACA on the A Cat foils was 4 - 6%. The angle of rake/attack was not mentioned in the discussion. Innovation and safety go hand in hand.
Allowing the daggerboard rudder in production trimaran racing was hinged by the safety element. Watch out for the Farrier 22 - If you see it, you'll likely want to sail it!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1312:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Kiwis, always trying to bend the rules.
But it isn't the Kiwis (unless you mean the ones employed by Team Oracle) who are bending the rules this time. The regatta director (Iain Murray) is altering the class rules at the behest of the cup defender (Golden Gate Yacht Club) - using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to shoehorn the changes in after the legitimate rule change process failed.
Allowing adjustable rudder elevators will not improve safety for the Louis Vuitton Cup - as the challenging teams do not have them. Allowing them for the America's Cup but not permitting adjustment while racing will not improve safety. The whole safety argument revolves around trimming the elevators during a bear-away (to keep the bows up). Rudder elevator adjustment is really a performance enhancement (between races to trim for wind conditions and while racing to initiate foiling).
To me, it looks like the defender (GGYC/Oracle) is attempting to stack the deck in it's favor. ETNZ has shown up with a more buoyant, more stable, and more seaworthy design, so Oracle is slipping in an 11th hour game change.
I hope the Jury rules in ETNZ's favor. I've been rooting for the home team so far, but I'd rather see them lose than win this way.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1301:07 PM
I could see them as being a safety measure to keep the boats from pitch poling with the different wind speeds. If they can't change them while racing what is the big deal. Could they just have a different rudder for different wind speeds and change between races. I think it was smart for Oracle to test with adjustable winglets so they could find the best balance for conditions. The other teams may have and had the same opportunity to test with adjustable winglets. Two boats have pitch poled and flipped so far and one sailor has died if changing the winglet angle before the race helps I would be fore it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/1303:26 PM
I agree that Oracle was smart to test with adjustable rudder elevators. Those rudders are not, however, class-legal to race with. Once Oracle picks the best compromise attack angle, they have to stick with it (make fixed elevators). Doing an end-around on the class rules via the Coast Guard permit does not make racing safer for anybody except (possibly) Oracle, and it gives Oracle a performance advantage.
ETNZ made a stability/speed tradeoff when they designed their hulls with greater bow buoyancy. They sacrificed some upwind performance to prevent pitchpoling on the turndown. Oracle opted for a finer hull profile with better theoretical upwind speed at the expense of stability. Had adjustable rudder elevators been legal from the outset, ETNZ may have made a different design choice. Giving Oracle an exemption from the class rules under the guise of safety is unfair to the challengers - especially since the change comes less than two weeks before the LV Cup begins.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/30/1310:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
IMHO it's just a big wind-up by Oracle and ultimately they won't care what the jury decides.
+1, The pic of LE,RC,JS,Tug Boat Turner looking at the rudder is a joke. They are just stirring the pot. I can't believe anyone thinks that OR doesn't have all the bases covered. Anything can happen but they won't lose because the boat isn't up to the task...... I hope:)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/1305:15 PM
Yuck...
If there's one constant in the Cup's history, especially over the past 30 years; it's change. Sure would be nice if the people involved would embrace that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:00 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Excellent read regarding the CG Permit and Regatta Director Iain Murray by legal analyst Cory E. Friedman here.
I've always enjoyed Freeman's perspective on Cup related details. If his suggestion that Oracle has yet demonstrated the ability to foil without adjustable rudder tabs, this is a pretty transparent attempt to cheat and skew the event in their favor. It stinks. I'll be interested to see this play out but if it turns out to be as rotten as it smells right now, I agree with Dave...start packing up the cup, we don't deserve it.
He also brings out Peyron's comments in that article linked before. After reading that again, I think it's is at least not clear what happened in that accident regarding pitchpole vs. boat breaking up. Peyron seems to say that they started to pitchpole and then the boat broke...was the pitchpole recoverable at the time?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:17 PM
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1305:28 PM
Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
I haven't read it - but I understood that the rule previously prohibited adjustable tabs on the rudders. All foils had to be fixed below the water and non adjustable. You could adjust rake of the foil to modify the lift (perhaps this is what had to be fixed on the rudder at a set time prior to racing) but you couldn't have an articulated widget below the surface.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1306:59 PM
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire daggerboard in the well)?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:20 PM
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.
The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.
Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.
Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:58 PM
Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
That is the way I understand the rule and don't get what the big deal is. The winglets can not be adjusted while racing only before the warning signal to adjust for the wind strength since the wind builds during the day. The only advantage to Oracle is they have been training with adjustable winglets to find out the best angle for conditions which the other teams could have been doing, but seem to have just chosen to have a one angle for all conditions. I guess Oracle could set there winglets for light conditions and have an advantage if the winds stayed light , but could be at a disadvantage if the winds picked up. The teams could have put different rudders on each day before and just guess which would be best for conditions for that day.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1307:59 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.
The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.
Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.
Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.
I think the initial intent was to disallow foiling...or make it so difficult that it wouldn't be practical. The problem entered when someone figured out how to do it within the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:23 PM
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1308:45 PM
Originally Posted by Redtwin
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire dagger board in the well)?
-Rob Vaden
The rules forbid the any movement of the rudder post.
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same. One of the rule changes allow the T to extend outside the max beam of the boat. This is thought benefit OR because this will allow OR to increase the size of the foil to make the boat more stable when foiling. NZ says this would be more dangerous because if someone fell off like Spithill did they could be hit by the foil. I believe Race Management back tracked on this rule. The word is OR has not sailed with T foils that extend past max beam. Another item is RM wants design and load testing data of rudder T foils on asymmetrical equipped boats only.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:00 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam. The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).
Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense. Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Which takes the argument back to "outside the max beam" and away from adjustable foils. The 12th hour safety rule calling for a change to symmetrical rudder foils is utterly absurd and does absolutely nothing to enhance safety.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:08 PM
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1309:58 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here. ... I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...
I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/1311:14 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.
I'm not sure about that...I don't know that they haven't caught the multihull bug (I hope so anyway).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:43 AM
Originally Posted by bacho
Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?
That's what it said.
Not surprising, actually. On a tour I took at the Oracle base last year, the guide was discussing how, when the boats get going fast enough, they're always sailing upwind due to the effect of boatspeed on the apparent wind angle. In many ways, foiling is at least as much of a game changer as an additional hull or two...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:51 AM
Another reason not to carry a gennaker is that it's virtually impossible to pull off a foiling jibe with one.
The gennaker has to be partially furled, jibed, then unfurled. The extra speed/time gained when you're up on the foils is more than offset by the time spent off the foils in the jibe.
At least one team (ETNZ) has a self-tacking jib - which may partially explain why they were the first to achieve a fully-foiling jibe.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1301:36 PM
huh. So it seems that the reasoning behind the "symmetrical rudder is safer" is to avoid failures of the 90 degree rudder to foil joint. I can see how this would cause a major problem if this broken during a big bear away (who knows, it may have let go during Oracle's big capsize or Alingi's) and I think it adds a little merit to the point for using them.
However, I feel like I should point out that all of them are using asymmetrical dagger boards that should be seeing considerably more loading than the rudders...soo....uhhhh.errrr
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of? Do they have a boat? Or did some Durham-based African Americans who haven't set foot on a boat decide they needed a piece of the $100 million???
That video from Oracle certainly clears a few things up for me and makes it a little less like cheating. I had assumed the elevator attached to the rudder was movable ala Moth. Adjusting the entire rudder rake+elevator still sounds fairly illegal but their setup really seems optimized for quick testing and not necessarily speed gains while racing.
I really hope whoever wins sees the light and brings foiling AC45's to the action.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1302:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
I agree, and from what little experience I have hitting things with my face (thanks Karl), getting sliced up by a winglet at 40 knots does not sound pleasant in the least bit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1302:05 PM
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?
I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.
What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?
I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1305:40 PM
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1308:08 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman
The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.
So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.
Why bother? He said their most recent symmetrical rudder wing is compliant.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/1310:18 PM
I'm sure very, very few people ever imagined a winged keel (AUS in Newport), let alone foiling a 72-foot boat of any kind, let alone a cat in the America's Cup. Makes you wonder what kind of innovations are in store over the next 30 years...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/1310:27 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mbounds
Now this just impresses the hell out of me. That's some serious laminate engineering.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that testing the load in the wrong direction?
No. The rudders pull the stern down to give the daggerboards an increased angle of attack so the boards will generate more lift. They also pull down in the most extreme case when the bows start getting pushed down.
Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/1310:55 AM
That is interesting, in my view each one of these teams would do whatever they could to gain an advantage. In this case OR happens to get the bad press.
In my motorsports past, many would say that rules were created to be bent. They would also say that if you were not bending the rules as much as possible, you weren't winning.
Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.
Here's the only thing I think anyone can believe at this point:
The jury will have the last word. Until someone takes it to court.
The more things change...
Even if there is no intentional foul play on any side (which is actually conceivable), the differences of opinion, fueled by the egos and wealth at this level, put the playground dispute on a different plane.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1301:01 PM
The following two paragraphs are quoted from an "America's Cup on SFGate" article by Tom FitzGerald:
Murray, who is employed by all the teams, acting in a partnership, insisted he isn’t going to resign. “I don’t like to leave things unfinished,”
If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.
Clearly, we're not being told the whole story. Something is driving Iain Murray to act irrationally. One moment, he insists he's acting fairly to benefit all the competitors. Another he threatens to shut the whole event down if he doesn't get his way.
Apparently, Murray is utterly convinced that larger rudder elevators with adjustable rake are necessary safety features required for an AC72 to sail. Yet, he has also said (regarding Luna Rossa's threat not to race) "It's been indicated to them that the boats are in measurement trim, are ready to race and can race". How is it possible for the boats to be both measured-in and also unsafe?
Max Sirena has taken a not-unreasonable position, saying he wants to know what the rules will be before he starts racing. After all, how can you compete if you don't know whether or not the boats are legal?
Murray has responded with personal attacks on the teams, disavowal of responsibility, and more rule change proposals, as shown in the following four quotes:
"Now, however," he said, New Zealand and Luna Rossa “want to cherry-pick the parts that don’t suit them out of it.” (also many diatribes against Grant Dalton that I haven't quoted)
"The jury are part of the International Sailing Federation, not the America's Cup," Murray said. "They make their own rules and they make their own schedule. (This is clearly untrue - The America's Cup is not run under the Racing Rules of Sailing and is not under ISAF's control in any way. The AC Jury is employed by the Americas Cup organizer, just like Murray).
"It's been suggested that I direct a lot of people," Murray said today. "But I can be clear, that I don't direct anyone." (If the Regatta Director doesn't direct anyone, what does he do?)
Murray said that under the current rules a team must complete the course to get their point, but hinted that their had been discussions with the teams about changing that rule. (How can one fix a disagreement about changing rules by changing rules?)
I think I understand how larger elevators and deeper rudders might help a boat recover from a foiling nosedive. To that extent I agree that they are an important factor in boat architecture. That tradeoff, however, is the responsibility of the individual design teams, not the Regatta Director. Iain Murray has taken a giant leap of hubris by insisting that he must step in to correct the competitors' designs.
And finally, something is fishy with Team Oracle's behavior. They might not be directly influencing Murray's actions, but Coutts and Spithill sure are lining right up behind Murray - including making misleading statements about safety vs. performance and issuing personal attacks on the other competitors.
"Here we have some of the wealthiest people on Earth, yet for all of their fortunes and alleged smarts, they can't get their act together any better than us nonwealthy schlubs trying to organize an RV family vacation to Pismo Beach."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1307:05 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here. ... I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...
I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.
Sadly, Eric
I'm bringing 8 people who have never sailed a day in the lives to the AC finals. Friends and family who I've been peppering with youtube videos of insane machines that fly over the water on curtains of fine mist.
My current crewmember is a friend who got hooked on the sport when he ran across the ACWS in Venice. Thats a direct benefit of the Americas Cup to the sport of sailing.
Take it back to slow, boring, unexciting monohulls and you lose the people that are getting into the sport because of the spectacle.
Furthermore, I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/1311:27 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.
Ok, I'll backpedal here. "Cheating" was too harsh a word. I don't accuse Oracle of cheating, but I used the term to oppose the notion that Oracle would be right to win "by hook or by crook". The ends don't justify the means.
Of all the video interviews I've seen, I'm most impressed with Tom Slingsby's. He didn't pedal any PR story; he didn't badmouth any other teams - he just said (in paraphrase) 'here is our current elevator, here is a big one for the proposed rule change, and here is an asymmetric one. We'll use whatever elevators the jury decides'. Tom showed real class in that video.
John Kostecki, when asked about the adjustable rudder rake, explained how the system worked, but sidestepped a reply to the question of whether it was a performance or safety control. At least he had the grace not to pitch the corporate line.
I have the utmost admiration for Jimmy Spithill's talent, but I'm disappointed with his assertion that adjusting rudder rake between races is "definitely needed for safety". Clearly, it isn't. Oracle could set the rake on shore for the highest expected wind speed that day and be every bit as safe. The boat just wouldn't be quite as fast early on when the winds are lighter. Therefore, it's a performance control. Jimmy is selling the PR story.
Again, I have great respect for Russell Coutts' ability, but am saddened by his descent into name-calling. It doesn't help his team nor the sport to make personal attacks on the other teams.
Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray. Certainly they have supported his claims and his actions - despite how outlandish his statements have become. That makes me distrust Oracle's motives, and possibly suspect their involvement. Certainly, Oracle is the principle beneficiary of Murray's subversion of the rules.
I'm going to watch the racing - most definitely - despite these antics.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1301:25 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Luna Rossa confirms they will not compete on Sunday
Where are the keys to the shed... I'll take the ****ing boat out for them if they don't want to race.
Assh0les.
Quote
Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray.
How did Iain come to be regatta director? Was he appointed by GGYC - or was he agreed upon by all the participants? I believe its the latter.
Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray? Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Oracle wants the event to happen. ETWankerZ and Spoiled Rotten Toddlers don't apparently.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1306:40 AM
I think ETNZ are on the same page as Oracle now, they will race no matter what the jury decides. For them to boycott a race could also be bad publicity for their sponsors.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1312:49 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Where are the keys to the shed...
Luna Rossa simply wants to know what the rules will be before they start racing. I don't think that's unreasonable. Consider this: if ETNZ and LR sail with their existing rudders and the Jury sides with Murray, will both teams be disqualified for equipment violations?
Quote
How did Iain come to be regatta director?
According to what Iain Murray says, all teams agreed to his appointment as Regatta Director and he is working for the benefit of every team. According to what Iain Murray does, he is certainly not acting fairly for all. When words and action disagree, believe action.
Quote
Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray?
I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1301:52 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1302:15 PM
Quote
I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them
You're forgetting Artemis here. They're in favor of the new rules as well. That seems to imply that the Challenger of Record and the defender agree on the rules changes, and the other "and also" teams seem to have big problems with it for whatever reason.
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Now, five weeks later, Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa (LR) have lodged protests...
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing.
So I ask, who is trying to force whom out of the 34th America’s Cup?
The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1304:57 PM
Everybody should find an hour of their time and listen to this entire media conference on July 3rd with Iain Murray. No questions were off limits, the questions were direct and tough, and he didn't avoid anything. It's pretty darn transparent and the listener can draw his/her own conclusion . . . Media Conference with Iain Murray
You should really listen to the whole thing to do it justice, but if you want a snippet, try 35:40 to 46:00.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1305:31 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.
Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.
Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.
So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Like Todd pointed out, Murray never states that he will ask to revoke the permit, only that the permit was not agreed upon, in which he is required to notify the CG immediately.
There is a local consensus in SF that the CG would likely be able to live with a 35 rule permit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1305:55 PM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
If they are going to race how do you watch it? Can't find anything on the TV schedule.
Maybe nothing to broadcast, might want to check into the YouTube channel at 12 noon SF local time (PST). The schedule here reports live race commentary from 12:00 to 1:15
For everyone else, the broadcast schedule is here. Choose your country.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1307:15 PM
Those ding dongs won't allow me to sling the broadcast to my TV with the YouTube app. I guess I need to get a computer hooked up to my big screen next time.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1307:30 PM
Pretty riveting stuff, one boat on the course and all.
Interesting at 12:30 how much they changed the angle on the dagger before dropping it for a tack. Pretty major adjustment compared to what I have seen on some beach cats
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1310:03 PM
Top speed today: 42.8 knots. Full replay below. Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/1311:58 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Here is the quote of what Mr. Murray said:
Quote
If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.
I don't know the difference between "rescinding" and "revoking" the permit, but Murray clearly states that the permit would be withdrawn. He did not give any indication whatsoever that he would try to amend the permit, or apply for a new permit with a different safety plan. I don't see any way to read the statement "there will be no regatta" other than as an "all or nothing" ultimatum. I'm not twisting what Murray said, just taking him at his word.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1312:48 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:39 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1312:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."
I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1302:52 PM
I think a lot of things are being taken out of context. There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone. Hopefully the jury gets us past this quickly so the focus can return to racing.
I'd like to see the finals be between ETNZ and Oracle USA. I think those two have the most experience on these boats and will provide the best racing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:03 PM
Philip,
This may have been said before.
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:13 PM
Originally Posted by catman
Philip,
This may have been said before.
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1303:49 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone.
Mike,
I agree. At this point, I don't see any likely outcome that is fair to all. I sympathize with Artemis over the quandary they're in. They went down two design paths (small and large symmetric elevators), not anticipating the possibility of a third form of the rules. A 35 of 37 point rule change could leave them SOL. ETNZ and LR also went down two design paths (small elevators, and large asymmetric elevators, neither with rake adjustment). A full 37 point rule change could leave them disadvantaged. Only Oracle developed small, large symmetric and large asymmetric elevators, with adjustable rudder rake. They will come out even or advantaged in any case. The fairest solution would be to return to the original elevators, but Iain Murray has already stated very clearly that he won't permit that to happen. I wish the jury well in finding an equitable solution within the rules and look forward to its decision.
Originally Posted by catman
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.
Phillip, I've been thinking the same thing. Thanks very much for keeping us all posted.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:09 PM
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:41 PM
Thanks for the gratitude guys.
Here it is again. Please go to this link and LISTEN to 37:30 35:30 through 46:00, then come back and comment. It's from the horse's mouth. How many times can the media ask the same question?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Mike
Mike, your position assumes that Murray has an ulterior motive with the rule changes. While I too once held that position based on the stream of information coming out of the two teams that lodged protests, I think it's important to note that he was put in place by all of the competitors and it's unlikely that he's being influenced by one team.
I'm starting to come of mind that Murray just honestly believes that these changes are safer and, frankly, it's hard to argue with that actually. The offset rudder lifting foil (asymmetrical is a misleading term) does lead to enormous torque loads on the vertical rudder foil and hinge system and could lead to breakage....for all we know one or both of the capsizes to date had this issue lead to the capsize. I can see how allowing the rudder foil to be centered on the rudder and extend beyond the beam of the boat can be safer.
With regards to the issue of adjusting the rudder foil, there was also a lot of bad information circulating about this early. Previous to these changes, the rudder/foil rake had to be set prior to racing for that day. We all know that every one of these boats can adjust the rake of the rudder and it's attached foil - they would be insane to try and foil without this capability or, at the very least, it would be absolutely required for testing to determine the optimum setting. We also know that the wind can change dramatically in San Fran throughout the day and one rake setting may be terribly inadequate for the day. Teams would have the choice of setting it aggressively and being slow in the light air or setting it more flat and being in danger of a pitchpole should the wind build later. The rule allows them to change it prior to starting each race and better tune it for the conditions. I also believe this is a safer scenario than allowing one setting for the day.
I've come to mind that these changes are pretty reasonable. Oracle seems to have had a jump on this because they had a lot of different rudder and foil combinations. If I were to guess, I bet their pitchpole lead to (or was caused by) rudder failure that lead them to try several different things. New Zealand is probably on par with them in this regard. I don't think any team could change and try different rudder foils without being observed since it flies above the water regularly.
The two teams with less budget / development are likely behind when it comes to foil options - Artemis admitted it with Cayard's tour/interview yesterday and ~maybe~ Luna Rossa admitted as much in the vacuum of their competing yesterday. They're slated to race Artemis through this week and since Artemis isn't racing, we probably won't see LR until Saturday when they're scheduled to race NZ again. By not showing up and racing yesterday, they had an additional week to work out the new rudders.
Also remember that the original rule was intended to make foiling unpractical. Some of these limitations have become liabilities now that everyone is foiling - it makes sense to tweak the rule to make things safer and I think the only real argument you could make against it is that the timing leaves something to be desired.
This is such a game of controlling the media that I think the race management fell behind the two protesting challengers in getting their story out. Those two protesting competitors set the tone and we have already seen several glaring inaccuracies out of those reports that you really have to question the whole thing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:02 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.
Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.
Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition." I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?
Th
e fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR. You can see why he's pissed. Then there is the one other bit that is interesting, during his talk he says LR had spun out a couple times. That is news to me at least. So much for the so called perfect foiling design. I think it's time to give the man what he wants. Anyone that thinks US-17 needs IM to step in and win them the regatta is drinking some bad koolaid.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:36 PM
Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG
Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1309:46 PM
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1310:09 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?
Yes, I've been overly vociferous on this topic. Thanks for thinking it's uncharacteristic. I don't have any special information, I just think that the statements and actions of the Regatta Director and the Teams don't add up. That, and it has touched a couple of my hot-buttons.
Quote
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.
If the Jury decides to change Murray's proposals, then all he needs to do is give the Coast Guard an updated safety plan and the CG will then amend the permit. It's my understanding that it's pretty much a rubber-stamp deal. Murray, however, shows no intent to do so. Instead, he said that he would tell the CG that the racing is unsafe and expect the CG to withdraw the permit.
Quote
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.
Indeed. That is one reason I think Murray is acting either disingenuously or irrationally. If Murray ever did act to get the permit rescinded, I expect he would be replaced immediately.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:30 PM
Thanks for not taking that comment the wrong way, Eric.
I gave up trying to guess the motives of others long, long ago. Murray is pretty wrapped around the axle about the "all or nothingness" of the 37 rules as a package deal. It could be as simple as thinking he is right, has the authority, and genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing for, and with the perceived support of, all of the teams. I tend to take people at their word, at least until I have good reason not to.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:31 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG
Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/1311:51 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
The recommendations originated from ETNZ and LR back on May 17-22 (over six weeks before the first race of the LV). Amazingly, 6 weeks later, when time is precious, ETNZ (June 28) and LR (July 2) protest their very own recommendations.
Let's see the teams with compliant rudders that measure in, regardless of ruling: ETNZ (check) LR (check) OR (check)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1301:29 AM
Anybody know what the rules are regarding traffic on the race course? Seems like a high risk liability to have commercial traffic on the course during racing.
Originally Posted by mummp
Top speed today: 42.8 knots. Full replay below. Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1304:40 AM
Regarding the ferry...
I can speak from my experience at the ACWS in Newport (from aboard a weather mark boat). I would assume the rules are the same, or very similar, as those events were very much test beds for the RC.
There is an outer perimeter, marked by stake boats. These are large (typically monohull) sailing yachts, anchored and flying large red flags. These are set an hour or two prior to race time, based on the expected wind direction and strength, and the best guess for how the course will be set that day.
All normal spectator boats (and non-AC traffic) is required to remain outside of this outer perimeter. It is enforced by marshal boats (small power boats), and for large traffic, the Coast Guard.
VIP boats operate inside of this outer perimeter, and are essentially only limited by the actual course boundaries, which change from race to race (and lap to lap). They don't typically get too close unless they are a fast and maneuverable photo boat.
It's not foolproof. I don't know if anyone saw this on TV, but there were some large motor yachts anchored near Hammersmith Farm (south of Fort Adams) at the ACWS in Newport. This was well inside the restricted zone, and no one really knows why they weren't moved before the racing began (yes, a large portion of the bay was officially closed to unofficial traffic). Anyway, at one point, John had us move so far south, that the course enveloped these anchored boats. The marshals tried to get them to move, but they didn't react fast enough, and at least one of them became a large speed bump as the fleet tacked around them getting to the weather gate.
Having said all of that, I would say that judging by the number of people on that "ferry" in San Fran, it was actually being used as a VIP spectator boat.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:33 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:45 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1301:15 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.
I'm pretty sure this is the course and why you are seeing marks mid-leg
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:08 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.
If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.
Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
To why ETNZ,LR changed their minds, They may believe they will have an advantage in not changing the rudder rule. Or they know that with the changes US-17 may be able to set a new sailing speed record. "enter your speculation here" Better yet, why isn't the media banging down the door at ETNZ and LR asking if the claims IM has made are true?
I understand what your saying about the permit. However, honestly IM can't know what the CG will do if he has to go back with those rules removed. He has spent time with the CG and may have more insight to what the CG wants. He is the guy in the jaws of the vise. Currently he has the permit.
I don't believe the CG permit will be pulled. It will be amended with some changes. I think the CG main focus will be keeping the spectators and other boating traffic safe. We now know that a boat has rounded up more than once at over 40 mph. Maybe the spectator fleet may need to be pushed back further. Again, "enter your speculation here"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:15 PM
Mid course gates have been used to keep the action centered (VOR in-port races have used them). Probably not needed for the AC because of all of the digital wizardry.
Leftovers from the start box was really my first guess, but I couldn't recall whether the start was in the middle of the course, or above the windward mark (it's been mid-course for most of the ACWS). Even if those marks have propulsion for self-positioning, getting them off the course fast enough is probably more of a risk than leaving them in place.
As an aside, I listened to a lot of the Murray press conference, there's a lot there that tells me he's a stand-up guy.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1303:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?
The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
Unless they rigged up something for propulsion ,they are just those fun islands(Big kids water toy/lounge tube) with a teepee on top. Saw a closeup of one and you could see the writing on the side. I thought it was pretty creative and frugal considering the way they shovel money around.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1304:14 PM
Other than a lead-time issue, I'm surprised that they didn't get them with proper logos, or bare (no logos).
Losing the mark boats was definitely necessary. Not sure how widely reported this was, or how many of you remember this, but on one of the practice days in Newport, ETNZ was out of control, in traffic that wasn't well-controlled, on the way back to the harbor, and wiped out on one of the VIP (larger) mark boats. No one was hurt, but there was a good deal of damage to both boats.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1305:45 PM
Aaa...I see that NZ is going to tool around the course on their own again today. Is LR going to do that on Thursday when they are slated to go up against Artemis? This is going to get boring relatively quickly.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1308:22 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
I feel bad for the announcers who are trying to explain the lack of any competitors in this competition.
I was on the edge of my seat on Sunday wondering who was going to win. That one really came down to the wire.
It does make me wonder how conservative they are being sailing the boat. Are they giving it 100%? I kinda doubt it, tough to justify taking any risks when it's all yours to lose.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/1311:09 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Does this round even matter? I forget how the scoring works, but I get the sense this doesn't really matter, otherwise LR is taking an insane risk.
Mike
It would matter if there were enough competitors that they were fighting for position in the semi-finals...but with three it's meaningless beyond the spectacle.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1301:28 PM
Couple of Comments: Andy Green and commentary is much better, and since there is not another boat racing, they are doing a great job to educate what is happening with these new boats, and having team member guests is excellent. A+
Arial camera views are awesome, especially with the close ups. You can see the foot buttons in the ****, and other fine details we never saw before. ETNZ really does have a slick rig.
The foiling gybe. The Kiwi's are looking good. Slowest speed through a foiling gybe was 28 knots, versus 14 knots when loosing the foil. If competitors are similar in upwind speed, looks like the best execution of foiling gybes will win.
The dial up. Imagine closing speeds of 100 mph! This is a completely different animal and is insane. This is extreme sailing at its best. Bring it!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1301:37 PM
“Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. Sure, there’s the talent, but there also has to be the will. Give me human will and the intense desire to win and it will trump talent every day of the week.” Larry Ellison
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1303:13 PM
Newswire: The black panthers will riot if Team Luna Rossa doesn't win it's America's Cup protest.... Oh,wait....skip that... must have gotten my wires crossed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1303:57 PM
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1307:38 PM
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1308:21 PM
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, I'm guessing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
I don't think anyone knows exactly what ENTZ's capability's are when it comes to adjusting the rudder/T-foil. I seem to remember that at one point they were ok with adjusting the T-foil up until the warning signal. With that in mind you would have to assume that they have the ability to change the rudder angle in a fore and aft fashion. Now can they do it on the fly? Don't know.
I think it's proper to view the T-foil on the bottom of the rudders as just that. There are a couple videos posted here that explain Oracle's set up. In the one with RC he shows a T-foil with an adjustable elevator on the back of the T-foil. He said that it could only be adjusted by turning a small screw on the bottom. So I think that is where the term elevator fits into the conversation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1309:41 PM
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel….. Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski. Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing. Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
The daggerboard is adjusted on the fly to control foiling. Artemis has an article about it a few pages back.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/1309:53 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
One thing about the coverage - WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ON BOARD CAMERAS?!
Those were SOOO cool during the ACWS and we were all led to believe that the 72's would have them as well.
Whats the deal?
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
On-board cameras are definitely required and are included in the class rule. If you want to learn more of the techy stuff google "media module". It is the aero fairing box provided and mounted in center of the rear beam. It is the brains to all the on-board cameras and microphones.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1302:32 AM
They've already planned this out, of course...
My guesses:
If they win, they'll race.
If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.
If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1302:38 AM
Originally Posted by brucat
They've already planned this out, of course...
My guesses:
If they win, they'll race.
If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.
If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).
Mike
I read a comment this evening that they didn't want to prejudice the jury's ruling by sailing in the event to date. I can see this logic from the perspective of the major sponsor who is also heavily involved in the team (and not focused on his sponsorship investment)... I'm betting they sail either way and that the no-show to date has just been a minor thing to them so they can be sure to not affect the outcome. Several articles today state that they think they have a boat that can beat NZ.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:31 PM
so...nutshell...Murray overstepped his bounds with the rule changes regarding the rudders. We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out. I presume LR is going to tool around the course now with bells on.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:51 PM
Good read. The jury ruled in favor of Murray on notice 188 but against him on 189. Interesting on USCG position. Sounds like they don't care what's in the permit as long as safe for the bay, other commercial and recreational boaters, etc.
I did find this interesting: "Only LR raised any concerns as to the process by which the Safety Review Committee conducted its enquiry following the capsize of the Artemis Racing AC72 and tragic death of Olympic sailor Andrew Simpson on 9th May 2013. However, all Competitors supported the appointments and cooperated fully with the Committee. "
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1306:55 PM
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
This is the best thing that could have happened. Regardless of the final decision, the process was thorough, out in the open, and puts a lot of rumor to rest, especially the USGC part.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:10 PM
"We respect the decision of the America’s Cup Jury," said Grant Simmer, Oracle Team USA General Manager. “We continue to support the Regatta Director and we believe all teams have benefited from his review. We don’t have an issue complying with the Class Rule, and we will be ready to race under the rules affirmed by the Jury.”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.
As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:17 PM
I thought Luna Rossa was gaudy when it came out, and still do, but those sailing/spaceman suits are downright comical. I hope those guys got a nice bonus to have to dress like that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:18 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.
As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.
That's good to hear. I never quite got the jist of them NOT being able to sail.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/1308:35 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:31 AM
I'm hopeful that Artemis can find a way to make it work - but I must say I feel better about this ruling in that it should no longer taint any victory.
On another note; I wonder if Luna Rossa's silver metallic life vests are USCG certified?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:31 AM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???
ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1312:51 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.
ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).
The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:43 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
"or there will be no regatta" That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. This is really a bunch of media noise. Fact is OR, LR and NZ are in and racing, therefore we have a cup.
USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.
Bottle of your favorite rum bets that all the teams "agree" to change the class rule so that Artemis gets to race.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1301:59 PM
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.
ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).
The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.
ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.
Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.
Interesting - so what are the opportunities for the race management to protest a boat for building outside the class rule if the competitors agree to not protest against them? (I hope none).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1303:08 PM
I'm surprised no one is talking about Coutts's response to the rudder design and impact on the water (in one of Philip's video's posted a couple days or so ago) and his take on boat stability vs speed. There's so little info out on how Oracle is running - it's going to be interesting to see this play out.
That said, I've been very impressed with ETNZ thus far. Professional and look to have the boat well sorted. I'm just glad to see we're going to be doing some racing!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1303:25 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
I'm not 100% sold on that just yet but admit it is a definite possibility. Regardless, I bet the next cup is also on multihulls (a little smaller and truely less expensive) with a rule designed for foiling.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:04 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:26 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1304:52 PM
This video adds some good perspective to it all. My thoughts are how do you hide it when your about to gybe or tack? This part will be interesting. Additionally, this is match racing, how will the techniques change when you are covering at these speeds. You fake a gybe and your challenger might ram into your butt. These things don't have brakes.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:11 PM
That video appears to show that Oracle has better ride height control. When they're foiling (both boats) in that video, they are foiling but still very close to the water. I would think this has some aero advantages. I think ETNZ has just been more on the front page about technology and performance so we naturally start to see them as the ones to beat. I'm not sure we will have this figured out until, at earliest, the first race between the defender and the final challenger.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:25 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?
Control and speed from all the vids I've seen all play to ETNZ,hands down, and I was rooting for Oracle, so I don't think I'm BS'ing myself.
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1305:36 PM
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point. Or will we have one more protest?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1306:00 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point. Or will we have one more protest?
As I understand it, Oracle has compliant rudders and its just a matter of which ones to use.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1306:03 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1307:16 PM
Originally Posted by itbvolks
Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)
Right height control is your friend!
I'll have to check that out. Ride height is important from an aero and foil efficiency perspective. If your ride height is so high that the tip of the foil is coming out of the water, it's AOA (angle of attack) is high and inefficient. I bet we'll see ETNZ foil lower when (if) they get behind.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1307:46 PM
Comments on Maker Camp: Picked up some interesting stuff and thought it was well done. Jibs: used 16 times at $40,000/jib. Sail loft and sewing machines: Wow Boat: 90% carbon, 10% aluminum, 1% titanium Steering wheel: hollow Carbon weighing 350 grams (3/4 lb) 3D printing of electronic components Google+ guest Sam looked alot like a young Jake
If I ever was to dumpster dive I want to do it in Oracle's dumpsters.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:17 PM
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:23 PM
The jibs have a longer life than on the IACC boats. On the IACC they used to count the number of times the jib had been tacked. I think the life spam was something like 40-50 TACKS.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:28 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
Per the rules - the rudders can move in a single axis to change AOA but must be locked for racing. Least that's how I'm reading it....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:33 PM
"But it is a major loss for the beleaguered America's Cup Regatta. Again not for the Decision, which is a no-change. The loss comes from the damage done by those attempting to pervert the Rules - reflected in the constant general media droning about the litigious face of the America's Cup once again peering over the parapet, of what should be the pinnacle event in sailing."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/1308:37 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
I think you'll find that every team has the ability to adjust their rudder rake in some fashion. They wouldn't be able to do what they do without it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1312:12 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. ...USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.
“This means racing can continue if the teams abide by the existing Class Rule and the Safety Rules,” said ACEA chief executive, Stephen Barclay. That implies that if the teams do not abide by the "safety rules", then racing cannot continue.
Regatta Notice 189 has been officially withdrawn (see RN 201) so the safety plan no longer ranks as rules, but the ACEA and the Regatta Director have elected NOT to amend USCG permit. So, either the teams abide by the safety plan "voluntarily", or the event is in violation of its permit terms.
That isn't really a problem, given that the only objections anybody had were to the class rule changes, and those are out. It just irks me that ACEA still seems pretty high-handed. You won't see anybody complain though. The Jury was pretty firm about sportsmanship in it's decision: "the Jury specifically reminds all Parties of their obligation to respect and preserve the favourable reputation of the America's Cup and the sport of sailing, and to refrain from any conduct that may be perceived as being other than in compliance with Protocol Article 60". The bickering, at least, should stop and that's a good thing.
I expect that Artemis will be allowed to compete, but I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle countered ETNZ with a proposal to change the class rule (permitting large, symmetric elevators for all) rather than specifically giving Artemis an exemption.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1304:03 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/1312:53 PM
Magazines: Here are two magazines that might be of interest. The first link you can save as a PDF. The second magazine would be similar to what you might get if you were at the event. It contains team bios, cup history, and copious ads for local swank. Enjoy. http://www.sailracingmagazine.com/2013-editions/kr1vcfi4dlybpxsmrenmdolo1j5cmg
Judging by those giant blue/black flags, I'd say they're official. Most likely stake boats, possibly VIP boats. Why they were inside the boundary can be a variety of reasons.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1302:14 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1302:43 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
This x 1000
Until they line up together, we'll never know. As much as people say that ETNZ has it all figured out, they seemed to have some problems maintaining foiling in 18 knots of breeze yesterday. Sure their gybes are foiling but so are Oracles' now.
Fact of the matter is that its anyone's guess who is faster up until the race is run. I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1304:21 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...
Quote
"Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.
Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1304:53 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
The forum now only lets you quote four deep...
You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...
Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.
Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:26 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:30 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.
They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.
They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.
I believe the commentators ( term used loosely) said the conditions/ windspeed were up and down. They'll all suffer in puffiness, nature of the beast. Highest reported breeze of the day was during LR's finish.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/1305:48 PM
"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .
There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1312:44 AM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.
Me, too, Tad. While I have my opinion about NZL, don't mistake that for a lack of desire to watch the Cup unfold. It was sailors on the couch at my house for the race, and even my kid thought it was pretty exciting. I want to see it all, but my bet is out there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1301:24 AM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.
The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:00 AM
I certainly haven't kept up with this iteration as much as I have in the past - but I'm not sold that Oracle didn't originally intend to foil. The rule was written "to discourage" foiling but I think there was room purposely fitted in for it to happen...though it wouldn't be easy. NZ certainly figured it out and I think it's practically a forgone conclusion that NZ and Oracle will meet in the challenge. Also don't discount the fact that Oracle is still designing/developing and has the advantage of measured data of the challengers to work from (i.e., sensors and data transponders that were written into the rule and are available for download by anyone on the internet!)
Regarding yesterday's race, LR talks about how boat handling cost them that time - but the speed indicators between the two boats tell a different story. There was constantly 1 or 2 knots difference in boats speed up and downwind. LR has some catching up to do but at least they have a "preliminary" race series to get it improved.
It will certainly be interesting to see Artemis in the mix but they've not borrowed technology from Oracle anywhere close to the amount that LR borrowed from TNZ....heck, Artemis' first boat didn't even foil. They won't be much of a measure for Oracle's performance and it's hard to imagine them being much of a factor in the LV cup.
I just hope we get to see some back and forth racing - it's going to be pretty boring to watch after a while if it's a one boat show and we're going to lose the public after the impression of the advanced technology wears off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1303:34 AM
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.
Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up. ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.
The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.
Look into the latest iteration of A cats if you doubt me. More stability/buoyancy brings on foiling faster. If you look at side shots of ETNZ and Oracle, Etnz's version of less volume is still WAY more than Oracle's. This pic was first version, I believe, but you get the idea. My A cat was designed by one of Oracle's lead designers, Dirk Kramers, so believe me when I say, I hope they win, I mean it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1312:48 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .
There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:00 PM
so, looking at Saturday's 2-boat race, did LR lose more ground on the upwind side of the course than downwind? It seemed that way to me, even though I did note (as Jake pointed out) that there was consistent speed deltas of 1-2 knots.
Looked like LR had more trouble keeping a steady ride-height, and coming back up to speed after tacking uphill. Not much, mind you, but when you're going 20 kts up and 40 kts down a few extra seconds building speed costs you dearly.
I'm wondering how all this race time on water is helping ENTZ perfect their seamanship. Is US-17 limited in their 2-boat testing/training time? Will this eventually hurt them in boathandling skill?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1302:56 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.
I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.
I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.
They also seem to be having success with a smaller jib. I know that everybody is trying a lot of different jib configurations, but you can't argue with the success of the smaller one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1309:36 PM
"Kiwi sailor Craig Monk believes if Team New Zealand had been able to keep their foiling programme under wraps for even a month longer, the America's Cup would now be as good as theirs."
"Team NZ boss Grant Dalton told the Herald last month they would have liked to have kept it a secret longer, but "it was like trying to hide an elephant in a phone box - you can't".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/1311:43 PM
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1312:12 AM
Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1311:26 AM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1307:11 PM
That view looking back over your shoulder had to be intimidating. Fun stuff!
A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/1309:03 PM
Originally Posted by rehmbo
A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.
I started kite boarding last year. I'm never looking for crew and the whole rig fits in the trunk. Steep learning curve though.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/1312:01 PM
I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.
I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.
Mike
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/1301:17 PM
Was there an Oracle cologne too? - ode de Ellison? was there equal shelf space? If not, i think it is unfair advantage and should be contested
Originally Posted by brucat
I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.
I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/1311:19 AM
“The safety management plan we’ve requested from the teams includes a playbook on how they race their boats, how they go around marks, the systems they have to set and control, the speeds required to maneuver… basically, how they manage their boat around the racecourse,”
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1301:01 AM
"Currently with the Defenders able to conduct in-house racing - Defence Trials or otherwise, on the America's Cup Course, they are able to cross-reference their performance data against that already available on the Challengers. Their additional advantage is that they can sail just before or after the Challengers, so get a better bearing on the actual conditions on the day - even though the winds may change in strength or direction.
Another implication of the claim is that the Defenders are able to conduct a closed race session on the America's Cup course, while the Challengers are obliged to conduct an open session in terms of the performance data."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1307:55 PM
I'm a little behind watching this broadcast...but some thought provoking action today. NZ had their jib break (halyard or zipper busted...something)...after some wrangling, they released the jib off the boat, their chase boat pounced on it to collect it and LR had to tack away to avoid the chase boat. Should that be a penalty? (I think so...at least a simple foul).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1308:05 PM
It's hard to tell how much they're loosing downwind without the jib...but NZ is in some big breeze and the lack of a jib hasn't cost them anything yet. NZ running at over 38 knots while LR is running in the low 30's.
NZ is still foiling all the way through their gybes and making 5 knots better than LR. I hope Oracle has something for this...NZ sure looks good....and I'm wondering if we'll see jibs in the future.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/1311:22 PM
I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1311:45 AM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?
Good point...but they're not throwing stuff in the water that I have to dodge as we proceed up the course. Consider if LR had been closer and they couldn't avoid hitting the jib and got fouled up in it. What then?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1301:37 PM
Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.
It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.
Mike
So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.
All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?
Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1301:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.
It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.
Mike
So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.
All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?
Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.
I know in the 45s you could drop a crew member and not have to come back. We've seen the old AC monohulls drop kites and stuff off the boat with no penalty. I would presume the rules allow you to drop stuff on the 72s (clearly since NZ received no penalty) but I would hope it limits the James Bond devices. ;-)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1303:23 PM
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1304:54 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Any body have any more info about the "strings" in the wheel that Andy Green said control ride height?
I had wild visions of green and red yarn attached to the wheel trying to figure out how in the heck they would use this, attached to a wheel no less, to control anything.
I think I remember seeing someone (Oracle) with some sort of wire that went around the inside perimeter of the wheel - I thought it was structural to keep the wheel as light as possible but maybe it's part of this string system they mentioned.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1304:57 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!
I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1305:44 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!
I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?
LR and oracle both have a line around the inside of the wheel, but like you, I can't see how it controls anything. I've heard it mentioned twice. Plus ,I thought all that foil stuff had to be fixed/ non-adjustable. The only use I see for the jib is getting out of irons if you got luffed up in the pre start, and the drag penalty may not be worth it. You'd have to believe with all the money dumped into R&D they'd have this figured out. C's and A's use only mains/wings because it is the most efficient use of the allowed sail area. Marstrom also advocates this on their cats big and small. The other idea is maybe ETNZ dumped the jib on purpose to give their sister ship a chance at getting a point and not being behind the 5 min. cut off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1307:51 PM
I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/1309:20 PM
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1306:24 PM
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1307:09 PM
I've been watching virtual eye on dual screens with the live feed. I like the overhead view which we seem to get less of with the live video. Really shows their downwind angles, as well as the upwind from a great perspective. Virtual Eye
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:17 PM
Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes. Let's see what LR has done to close the gap. Starts (check) Aero package (check) Boundaries (fail) Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES Live channel
What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.
Here is the replay. The live broadcast missed the 30 seconds before the start, and it's missing on the replay also. Oh well.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/1308:58 PM
Wow, TNZ certainly is kicking some LR butt. I'll bet Larry is skeerd now! If not, he should be!
At almost no time, did I see LR posting a faster speed than TNZ. TNZ seemed to be going downwind at around 38, while LR was around 33-35. It was closer upwind, only about 1-2kt diff. but still slower, all the time.
Anyone hear why was LR so late at the start?
And Philip, thanks for all the links, great stuff!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:18 AM
I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1308:14 AM
Did you guys catch the comment about the effect of current on apparent wind? Didn't hear all of it but the idea was that sailing with the current reduces apparent wind and their by overall speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1310:20 AM
I think one of the Oracle sailors told them about it so some information may have gotten lost in translation. It does kind of make sense, if the current takes you in the same direction as the wind you lose some wind speed. I have noticed this myself while sailing but don't think sailing against the current is worth it at the speeds that we do?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1311:17 AM
I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.
Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.
So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.
This will certainly effect the apparant wind; this app.wind will increase and will be turned more to the bow (more close-hauled).
If you will lose boatspeed because of that effect, will finally depend on the boat. The boatspeed will even want to be higher because of this increased (apparant) wind (the speed was already higher because of the current).
Only problem is the direction of the apparant wind which is more and more close-hauled!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1311:21 AM
We're they (ETNZ at least) not sailing downwind when that comment was made?Seems that sailing with the current would increase the apparent wind downhill.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1312:41 PM
Glad these races are short. With these kind of blowouts imagine a 3 hour race(more than boring). I was watching the Utube live feed view count and it was only about 8K. Not very high. And after 2 legs I was only checking back every few min to see if anything interesting had happened. If NZ is blowing out Luna this bad imagine how bad the racing will be against Artimis.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1312:55 PM
Originally Posted by John Williams
I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.
Darren Bundocks comment,
Oracle is getting prepared for the Final, and seeing the Kiwis races, I'm glad OR has a two boat test to keep pushing the limits, TNZ is fast, Oracle looks even quicker , but how much faster can you go? Will find out soon, but I'm sure beyond speed diff , if any, we will see some incredible Matches between them.
"And in the middle of one of the bear aways we got a sharp gust at just the wrong angle. We didn’t wipe out but it was a hairy moment. I was thinking, ‘What am I doing here?’ I was thinking about Bart.”
To tell your grandkids, ‘I was there with Jess Ennis or Mo Farah at the closing ceremony’.”
With typical modesty, Ainslie neglects to mention that he was chosen to carry Team GB’s flag in the Olympic Stadium that night."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:17 PM
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.
Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.
So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.
I think the foils add more complexity to the equation. The speed at which an AC72 starts foiling is determined by the speed through the water (23kts?). So to reach the same speed through the water you would need to sail quicker over ground than if you where sailing against the current right? (Maybe 3kts or so).
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:34 PM
That makes sense at lower wind ranges where foiling may be borderline. Yesterday the comment was made that ETNZ was using it to their advantage at 35-38kts. It would seem to me that if they were already traveling those speeds then the adverse current is only extra drag. I am no expert though, nor did I stay at the holiday inn last night.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:35 PM
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1301:57 PM
OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1302:06 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;
"Right or Left?"
I'm quite confident these guys knew exactly where they were going and why. The effect of current on VMG is something they got sorted out long ago.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1303:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1303:33 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.
It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.
Hmmm...I'm not sure that the water still isn't the largest resistance to the boat speed even on foils...but I'll have to ponder that.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:37 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I'd have to guess aero drag is bigger once on foils.
Yeah, I was struggling with the physics on this but if you take it to the extreme and consider a surface with absolutely no friction, you really don't care how fast that surface is moving as long as it isn't tied to your motive force. So, as your friction on your running surface is reduced, the amount it moves is less important to your true motion...you guys are right. I think the foil drag is still significant so current does come into play (most definitely upwind) but it is significantly less a factor than it would be on a 6knot SB. If the effect of water current on the old slow monodulls was 90%, I suspect it's closer to as little as 25-30% on the 72 cats.
What I do think was interesting is the commentator's statement that the maximum windspeed allowable for racing was adjusted by factoring in current...funny, this.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1305:48 PM
As I consider this further, I think the current still does have some impact on different points of sail - consider reaching when the current and the wind are in the same direction and you are moving perpendicular to them both...the water movement does subtract from the overall wind here because the boat is having to directly compensate for the additional slip to leeward that subtracts from (or push to windward that adds to) the wind. On this point of sail, if the boat doesn't have any friction in the water, they're just sliding down the course.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/1310:39 PM
I would guess based on the images we're seeing today - testing is going pretty damn well!!! Those guys - that crew, they've gotta be so stoked... Testament to the whole operation....
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1312:09 PM
"Artemis will miss its seventh scheduled race in the Louis Vuitton Cup challenger series Thursday, so Luna Rossa will sail unopposed. It is not known when the Swedish team will enter the regatta, but it probably won't happen until the semifinals start Aug. 6."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1301:48 PM
I'm sure no one wants that boat racing sooner than the Artemis team.
However, it would be borderline reckless to race the new boat within days of splashing it. This isn't an off the shelf boat, isn't likely to handle like the old boat (which hasn't been sailable since the tragedy), and can hit close to 50 knots.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:13 PM
Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:16 PM
Originally Posted by orphan
Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1303:21 PM
and this Looking at the NZ wing profile might explain their blazing speed. Artemis seems to be heading in the same direction. Definitely a lower aero profile. Oracle, what's ya got??
Black Flag, really? LR clearly doesn't want to be embarrassed when they run aground (again)? Blaming it on wanting to build teamwork? Companies pay big bucks to send employees to "race" on 12 Meters in Newport as a team-building exercise...
It amazes me, every time I think I couldn't possibly respect the leadership of this team any less, they find yet another creative way to lower the bar...
Sadly, I used to love LR, back in the San Diego Cup.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/1311:23 PM
Stable beautiful foiling in 12 knots. Tom Schnackenberg "Boat's peak today was 40(knots)". Each and every single member of the Artemis program are already WINNERS! What a journey. "Keep an eye on us Bart" Go eat you some Prada!!!!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1303:19 AM
Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1311:51 AM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.
These guys are nowhere near race form. They just started foiling, for the first time, a day or so ago. To jump into a race will lock them into the conditions for the day and will put the team into a scenario where human nature takes over and they start making aggressive decisions they may cost them. It's a better decision to not race and get some time on the boat. LR has had months of foiling practice and experience - I wouldn't expect that Artemis really has anything for them at this point.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/1303:02 PM
Yikes! It's going to be interesting the first time a dagger board foil hits something in the water while at full speed. What type of marine life is in the Bay that they might encounter? Dolphins? Any big sea turtles? Orca's? That'd slow you down!
I know I've hit plenty of turtles on my lake, luckily I wasn't going 40kts up on foils!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/1303:14 PM
America's Cup Recent News July 26, 2013 Barclay: The underdog GMR_AC34JulyD22_0790
What is it about the underdog that compels us to support them? Is it that we relate to the underdog at a personal level and so we want to see them succeed?
Many do succeed. Cassius Clay was a 7-1 underdog in 1964 when he took on Sonny Listen for the heavyweight championship of the world; Seabiscuit, the unremarkable thoroughbred that lost his first seventeen races, went on to capture the heart of America; and Susan Boyle, the unpolished 47-year-old woman performing on Britain’s Got Talent — more than 64 million people have now seen the inspiring video clip of her turning Simon Cowell’s smirk into a smile. A tribute to Bart is carried on the Artemis Racing wing.
May 9, 2013, will forever be etched into our minds as the day we lost Andrew “Bart” Simpson. It affected all of us in some way, but nowhere near as much or as deeply as the Artemis Racing team. They were heartbroken and devastated by what happened.
The team didn’t know if it could compete. In fact, they didn’t know if they wanted to compete. But over the past 10 weeks that feeling has changed for several reasons: for Bart, for team owner Torbjörn Törnqvist, for the fans and most importantly for themselves and their families – they did not want the story to end on May 9.
Part of the journey back required the team being confident in their new boat. The other teams assisted with actual load data (including what was learned from the ORACLE TEAM USA capsize) and my information is that Artemis Racing tested Big Blue up to 120 percent with some of those loads! For those who have seen the photos of Big Blue being bent, distorted, pulled and pushed, it was clearly a rigorous process and she came through with flying colors. Load testing the structure of Artemis.
Now, Artemis Racing is back and was out foiling on day one. Inspirational! Big Blue and the team look amazing. Today will be the third day in a row they are out testing and tuning her for racing.
When will they race? Will they be competitive? I think we all want them to do well.
Paul Cayard calls it “climbing a mountain” and Artemis Racing has been doing just that. Step by step. They are not at the top, but they are close! I look forward to seeing them racing. I look forward to seeing them atop the mountain.
Stephen Barclay CEO, America’s Cup Event Authority
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/1308:27 PM
Food for thought. So, IF the Kiwis choose to advance to the Final and IF Artemis Racing were to beat Luna Rossa in the Semi Final, Emirates Team New Zealand may feel vulnerable to being unable to control any changes to the Protocol that Artemis Racing and ORACLE TEAM USA want to make.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/1312:24 PM
Artemis wasn't planning on racing, but since NZ has stated they're not racing, Artemis could make it a practice run and earn a point. At this point it doesn't matter for either team.
“But we also have a fairly large amount of work to do to our boat, a lot of changes and modifications intended to improve the performance.” . . . the Kiwis will focus on a number of subtle changes which should, as Barker explains, “make us significantly faster around the course.”
Some would argue that this view is contradicted by trends in classes such as the F18 and A-Class catamarans, and the International Moth. The F18 and A-Class cats have both seen a trend to wider, flatter hulls in recent years. However, this occurred prior to the successful use of efficient lifting foils. I would not be surprised if, once full foiling becomes more commonplace in these classes, a trend back to more conventional displacement-type hulls occurs.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1305:41 PM
I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not. GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1305:58 PM
I picked up a Chromecast last week - watching the matches on a 27" monitor was already pretty cool, but on the 60" where it belongs is better. Ready for the semis.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/1306:23 PM
John,
In surround sound also.
I got one the day it released. Love it. There are APK's that are already created for phone to device directly (i.e. gallery, dropbox, music, videos, etc) and the device was rooted within hours. It's just a matter of time before you can cast anything from phone to device. There is an app already that the dev will be updating soon. I can email some info if you want. I'm android fyi.
How much did Tom Cruz have to "donate" to get to drive?
Huh??? No celebrity pays for anything. He probably even got paid for appearing. This was undoubtedly a publicity stunt, to get a sponsor, appease a sponsor, or was directly paid for by a sponsor.
This would be true for any A-list celebrity. Especially true for this guy. There's no way his ego would allow his wallet to open for this...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/1302:47 PM
Another excellent article by Richard Gladwell. Is it fair?? The Challengers are deemed to be different because although they are also sailing on the America's Cup course, they are (correctly) deemed to be racing in a Selection Series, while the Defenders because they are a 'Team of One' have no Defender Selection Series, and are immune from the requirement to publicly release data. Jury Decision Defender Candidate Status and Course Access
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/1309:12 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not. GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.
The Contour+ also does this too. I think Contour brought this type of connectivity to the market and GoPro had to chase them. I've got a Contour and it's a nice camera. I've had the chance to compare the Contour and the latest GoPro and if I had to do it again, I probably would go with the GoPro because it's video quality is slightly better. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/1303:52 PM
Interesting - things have been quiet with Oracle the last week or so. With all the updates from ETNZ and Artemis - OTUSA has been pretty quiet (other than team guy introductions)....
Surely with them having a few runs with ETNZ and Artemis - they would have some updates?
Its possible to foil upwind in these boats... all they need to do is trim the angle of the boards to pop her up, but the problem is that when you do that, you lose headway bigtime apparently.
I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.
I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/1301:45 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Whats worse is Jobson. That guy shouldn't be allowed near a microphone.
I watch an episode of "The Moment - 101 America's Cup Sailor" on my new Chromecast. Jobson doing a reality sailing show. Don't watch. Jobson at his worst. Acting and reality TV should not be in Jobson's quiver. FAIL
On second thought, watch it, for some comedy relief. . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/1303:00 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.
That might be worth watching to see if/how they would implement upwind foiling as a tactic... but you're right from what I've been able to read - you can foil, but at the expense of a lot of leeway uphill...
I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.
Yeah, I turn the volume down. He does get some good video though. Just a couple things in it that are good to see. Some good foiling gybes by US-17 and on the one upwind leg she starts to rise on the foil. Looking like the Cup will be a good match.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/1303:09 AM
That pre-start was horrendous. For both teams. They both have excuses (our first race, our wing ripped), but wow, that was pathetic.
Artemis definitely has their work cut out for them. Their own target speeds upwind were 2 knots less than LR.
ETNZ has nothing to worry about, other than self-destruction...
It was GREAT to have Kenny back on the air! I'd much rather be rooting for him sailing, but he is definitely at the top of my list for commentators at the moment. What's up with Gary? He sounded like he was on a breathing machine every time he spoke...
America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.
An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.
Artemis practicing foiling gybes. Overall - looks much improved. We'll see what things bring today once the race starts! Would love to see them put in a great start and force LR to actually race.
America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.
An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.
Well, its not like the lead bricks being moved around would have changed the results of the regattas ...
However the boats should have been inspected/measured prior to every regatta. I just don't see how RC or anyone else would knowingly do this given that the ACWS to them is pretty meaningless overall.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1307:16 PM
O.K. all you techies. Looks like I'm blacked out from viewing today's race. http://www.youtube.com/americascup NBC is broadcasting today's race as a taped delay If this is the case I'm pissed. Anybody know a hack if indeed we are blacked out in the US.
Should be a close and exciting race. Last delta was 2 minutes, and that was with Artemis not succeeding with the foiling gybe. Looks like they found the key yesterday. If that's the case should be close racing.
"Veteran announcer Todd Harris will serve as the play-by-play commentator for the NBC Sports Network telecasts. Harris will be joined by former America’s Cup Helmsman and Volvo Ocean Race skipper Ken Read, as well as renowned sailor and author Gary Jobson."
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1308:43 PM
Yes, NBC bought VS long ago...
Kenny is doing a great job, but it's obvious that there aren't enough guys out there with experience racing these boats to call the play. He keeps talking about gybe/sets...
Anyone else notice that whenever the guys mention the Artemis tragedy, or accidents, they stop midstream? I'm thinking the guys in their ear pieces are self-censoring...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1308:53 PM
Resolution keeps going in and out, can't imagine that NBC Like this feed. With all of the $ they are putting into the broadcast, you would think they could get a handle on the resolution!
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/1309:01 PM
My video has been flawless. The onboard cameras and audio is what I envisioned when they designed this race years ago, exceeds my expectations. Now give me a quad view screen with the ability to go full screen at will.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/1310:16 AM
Things are not looking good for Oracle with the Rule 69 inquiry going forward. Apparently they loaded their pelican strikers with 5 pounds of lead, don't really see how that would make them go faster but strange nonetheless.
Here's the replay race 3. Spectacular cinematography. The video from helicopters and chase boats were rock stable. The onboard camera depth of field was awesome, especially on the LR boat. You get the sensation of 3D from the full range depth of field and contrast. Onboard audio from the boats and sailors add the sensation of being there.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/1306:49 PM
Race 4, starts today at 13:15 PDT. North America can watch replay tonight or live via virtual eye with audio commentary. Live broadcast available in North America with the app. BLUE
Here is the replay of race 4. So Umps rule a double penalty on Artemis, it is assumed that the ruling was based on LR acquired ROW per Starboard. The Double was because Artemis gained an advantage because of the foul. Question is was it a good call? Did LR give Artemis room to keep clear? It looked like Outteridge did not react. Good stuff.
Luna Rossa, on the other hand, is not the same team that was DSQ against NZ for finishing >5 minutes behind them in the round robins. They have improved dramatically, both in boat speed and handling. Both LR and NZ expect to bring updated platforms the next time they meet.
Then there is talk that both NZ and Oracle might bring upwind foiling to the game, if it proves they can get better VMG with it. We'll see.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:31 AM
That penalty on Artemis was crap. From the moment they lost right of way, they could have done nothing different. Outterage has the wheel hard to port for an eternity before they touched. If you go look at the video replay of the race at 35:46 you can clearly see outterage turn the wheel hard to port before LR crosses head to wind. He is not required to anticipate that LR will go completely to starboard. He is required to start to avoid when LR obtains right of way and he did that before that even happened. LR has to give them time and opportunity. I feel like Artemis clearly met their obligation.
The insult is that it really looked like Artemis had a shot at winning that one. They looked much better.
I hope they have an opportunity for redress...but I'm not sure how that works in this series.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1301:35 AM
Outterage even says so at 35:55. You can clearly hear him in the audio. Guess the umps didn't see it. They were probably too busy watching the jibs to determine S/P and missed it. They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds. I felt like Outterage nailed it, a successful luff, and likewise Draper pulled off an interesting reaction.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:07 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds.
Obviously...but the judges should have a good understanding of the maneuverability of these boats and should have been able to recognize that what Artemis would have had to have done to keep clear was impossible. It's their job to know enough to make the right call...and that one should have been an easier one if they knew what they should have known.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1312:56 PM
Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.
I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.
Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1301:15 PM
Originally Posted by Timbo
Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.
I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.
Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?
Undoubtedly because they were behind and needed to push the limits to try and get an advantage. They just pushed it too far.
The other frustration on their part is the length of time it took the umpires to issue the penalty...I'm sure they were trying to figure out what they had just been penalized for when it came up as they had just rounded the first mark. The competitor should have as much time to react as it took the judges to issue the penalty. ;-)
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in that umpire discussion that ensued after the contact. You can bet that it was not a unanimous decision.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1302:01 PM
In the broadcast there was talk that when the call went to jib someone signaled they were not ready and they had to delay the jibe which put them out of bounds.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1302:59 PM
That was penalty #3. #2 They attempted to go beyond LR's line and tack out of their wind shadow. This put them out of bounds. For a change LR sailed a good race with no out of bounds penalties.
I agree with the above the start was a mistake on the umpires part. Artemis had a perfect start and excellent boat speed on the first reaching leg. There is definitely a possibility they would have won had they not incurred the massive penalty from the pre-start.
It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current. I suspect this is why Oracle and TNZ have been working on foiling upwind. Even at a net VMG penalty, if they can scoot across the course extremely quickly doing 25 kts+ upwind they open up their escape options upwind...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1303:05 PM
Don't know how reliable this report is from the SA Forums but here you go:
Quote
From the start of race 4 - here is the distressing truth:
The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios and saw what happened:
1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best 2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start 3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty 4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty - Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water) 5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button) 6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty. 7. It was a total kiss up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1 8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty 9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is 10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ?? 10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.
CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1304:14 PM
Originally Posted by samc99us
It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current.
I also think that the 2 minute dial up is a complete travesty of match racing. There's just not enough time at these speeds. . . .
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1304:37 PM
Agree completely, the pre-start has been the most exciting part of the AC72's so far, especially for the non-sailors. Only getting one shot at a dial up really limits the action needlessly.
Emirates Team New Zealand is now the Challenger of Record by virtue of Artemis Racing’s elimination. Emirates Team New Zealand now has the right of veto over any last-minute attempts to change the Protocol or the racing rules. - See more at: http://etnzblog.com/#!2013/08/big-w
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/1309:47 PM
Lol. I laugh every time I see on board footage of Luna Rossa. Chris Draper appeared to be carrying an ipad on his belly that made him appear like even more of a storm trooper.
I really hope they beat TNZ in one race so they aren't picked on forever about their team uniform. It's probably waay too late, hot pink jumpsuits would be better.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1308:34 AM
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1312:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
5 lbs makes no sense at all. I don't care where it was placed. It didn't change the performance of the boat. The rules are the rules though. I think the people here realize that.
I can think of only three things it could be, cheating, stupidity or sabotage. I'm hoping it's the last one.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1312:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1301:25 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut? I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)
Indeed. Proportionally speaking, it'd be like us putting a water bottle in a forward tramp pocket.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1304:35 PM
Why??
No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.
If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...
I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1305:40 PM
Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it...
Arguably the best place would be half in the bows and half in the transoms. This would increase moment of inertia and reduce pitching.
It would decrease the frequency of the pitching but increase the distance it pitches - which may not be favorable. The traditional school of thought is that it's better to reduce the depth of the pitching since the waves are going to help dictate the pitch regardless of weight position. It doesn't fit 100% of the situations, but I have understood that it is generally better to have the weight centralized.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1307:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why??
No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.
If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...
I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.
I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/1308:56 PM
Quote
I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.
The culture is... We bend the rules a bit...we don't break them... because we are special!
So, Now... we have to add weight.... Where? epoxy plus lead... or for the last boat... just lead shot... to the king post. OR where the rule tells us... When your special.... you bend the rules... AND GET AWAY WITH IT....
OOOPS!
(I want to know if the youth teams were putting the boats together and the free lead shot fell out of the king post tube with balls everywhere starting the WTF is this about questions.)
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:06 AM
That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:17 AM
Um, I don't really know how to say this, John, but I read your reply on my phone without being able to see the left side of the screen (to see who posted it), and and disturbing as it was, I could only think of ONE person who possibly could have written that to such a level of detail, and I was right...
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1312:58 AM
Originally Posted by John Williams
That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.
hahahah.... the dude's 68. There's no harm in having a few experience wrinkles on your bow.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/1306:57 PM
Racing for the finals starts Saturday. Be prepared. Only one day is live on YouTube. Currently, we can watch it live with the APP, but I'm wondering if NBC will try to kill that also. Broadcast Schedule LV Finals
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
+1 The gains upwind would have been negated downwind anyway. Besides, it's MORE weight.
I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
It doesn't make sense for RC, LE and crew to risk their reputation and respect of their competitors on a silly 5lbs inconsequential weight.
The only way I can see this being intentional is if RC wanted to do something JUST like this to get the competitors focused on things other than the competition. Rope-a-dope.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/1304:33 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Foiling gybes are definitely NOT smooth - thats for sure. I really hope that OTUSA is sandbagging.
The guy that took that vid said the wind was 6-12 knots during the first few gybes. The other thing is make sure which boat your looking at. Focus on OR2. Easy to tell now by the sprit.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:12 AM
LOL, So much for the perfect boat with the perfect crew. I think LR was going to protest the removal of the fairing. Quite a bit of change from when measured in.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:31 AM
" Two minute later the Italians issued a protest, however at the time of posting this article, we had no confirmation why, what for, or who against. " Article Update: Protest withdrawn.
"The capsize cause seemed to be related to a daggerboard angle issue, or rudder trim issue - given that the boat was already up and foiling and sailing fast in the bearaway"
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1312:51 AM
Do you know if there are scuppers on the side of the hulls? Right after the stuff, just after the two guys fall overboard, you'll see water pouring out of the hull from what looks like 2, two foot long scuppers.
At first I thought each crew had put his foot through the hull and that was water pouring out of the hull, but after watching the replay several times, it must be scuppers, but where is the water coming from?
I thought any water above and between the hulls would go straight down through the fishnet tramp. So where is all that water that's pouring out of those slots coming from?
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1301:26 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1301:30 PM
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:21 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:23 PM
For anyone else interested in tuning in, NBC Sports channel (relatively new channel) is broadcasting the races. As Todd pointed out, it's under "Yachting" (please raise your pinky finger and take a sip of your tea just prior to enunciating this word with a delightful hint of a British accent...when will they ever learn that they not only need to change the boats, but they need to be careful with what they call this stuff to make it exciting). The replays are usually available on youtube about an hour after the scheduled broadcast.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1302:35 PM
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:15 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.
As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.
The Oracle practice race was run before the LV finals and broadcast on Youtube live. Pretty smart of them to do that to have filler for postponements and such. First broadcast race and exactly what people complained about, happened. Big delays ,then cancellation.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:37 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
See I had the opposite opinion.
I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.
On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.
I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
I don't think there is enough difference in hull width between oracle and TNZ for that to make much difference. They're different, but both still fairly fine in the scheme of things. Especially compared to a N-20 deck and hull shape. More like the difference between 2 current, different manufacturer, F-18s. The wing is trimmed by a winch that is controlled hydraulically ,so the control is just like any winch on any boat, sans winch handle. The trimmer, in this case Glenn Ashby, controls the amount and speed of trim or ease with the sheet, instantly,i.e the hydros spin the winch not pull the sheet like an Extreme 40. Wing loads are considerably lower than soft sail loads also, for what it's worth. The announcer was talking about foil angle to far back. Watch the replay, yes,the top is back but that makes the bottom of the foil(under the boat) forward (it pivots on the bottom of the trunk) which gives positive aoa/lift. Pure power caused that problem, coupled possibly with loss of rudder foil ( negative aoa). Not sure Deano could have done anything with the helm to stop it.Like Ken Read said, "Nature of the beast".
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1303:57 PM
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.
Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.
I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/1304:37 PM
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet. 2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.
Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.
I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P
You know me, I hate change. I was hoping to get away from Motorola phones because of their penchant for keeping them locked after they stop supporting the platform ( sounds familiar maybe even N-20esque) but if that's what there is then so be it. Appreciate the advice. I've only been due for an upgrade (2 yr contract up) for about 6 months. I actually want the GzOne commando ,but apparently it's got battery and glitch issues.