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AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed

Posted By: P.M.

AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/12 08:37 PM

11 photos here.
Check out that rear beam!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/29/12 11:48 PM

beautiful
Posted By: JMAC

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 02:29 AM

Those are some damn expensive cat trax!!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 12:40 PM

I have a feeling these things might actually foil.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 12:48 PM

Imagine the start of a fleet race of 10+ of these monsters!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I have a feeling these things might actually foil.

With a little help.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/488263_457920384240571_877318440_n.jpg
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 01:50 PM

In all fairness to the spaceship down under . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 02:00 PM


40 knots?

more here
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by mummp


NZ looks well suited for the big water in San Fran Bay. I'm going to be out there in a couple of weeks - hoping to stop by and see something.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp


NZ looks well suited for the big water in San Fran Bay. I'm going to be out there in a couple of weeks - hoping to stop by and see something.

BTW Jake, you can see the L foils in the video of ETNZ. At 1:09 in the video it looks like it's damn near flying . . .
Posted By: Chris9

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 04:32 PM

Thanks. I'm wondering if the back beam can be trimmed?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 05:40 PM

Are the 72's all going to be of the same design/builder, like the 45's, or is it a 'box' rule, where we may see some vatiations?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 05:54 PM

Yes it's a box rule - http://noticeboard.americascup.com/governing-documents/ac72-class-rule/
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by MarkMT

really simple box rule by the way . . . wink

"batch-nominal elastic modulus of the fibers in an FRP laminate with the modulus measured with impregnated tows, by extensometers, between 1000 and 6000 microstrains; the Measurement Committee will accept the following testing methods (and may accept other similar methods): SACMA-SRM16, ASTM D 4018, or JIS R 7601;"

Several of the rules I like:
No trim adjustments to foils
No water ballast
No boundary layer technology on hulls
Manual power only (no more generators, etc.)
Limited use of electronics, wireless, weather tracking, etc.
Inclusion of cameras and microphones for spectators.

Posted By: ccat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 08:07 PM

WOW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WPDAf9jPjwQ
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 09:29 PM

Anybody know why the # 17?

Jeremy, I know you've got some killer pictures. Bring it.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/30/12 09:37 PM



SWEET
Dirk designed my A cat and it looks an awful lot like that.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/31/12 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Anybody know why the # 17?

Jeremy, I know you've got some killer pictures. Bring it.


Larry likes 17, and he pays the bills.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/31/12 04:32 PM

Boat is getting ready to sail right now. Crew in Helmets and sailing gear getting on. Check out Jeremy all day for updates.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/31/12 05:50 PM

Why the center hull? Seems like extra weight for no gain in performance? I don't get it.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Why the center hull? Seems like extra weight for no gain in performance? I don't get it.

Structure support is my guess.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 04:37 AM

I think I saw an interview where Larry discussed 17 around the time of the DoG event. Wish I could remember the exact reason, but he's had a bunch of boats with that number, and apparently has won some major events running that number.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 11:07 AM

They broke a daggerboard on their first sail, the load on the tip of those L foils has to be immense.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 12:26 PM

video first sail

Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 03:08 PM

I'll post 'em here since I don't post, let alone even visit that internet cesspool...

[Linked Image]


At one point as I was watching 17 sail, I notices that the T Foil on the rudder was lifting more that the board. The boat was sailing bow down. I was about .25 miles off, so it was difficult to see exactly what was going on, but I assume that this is when the board broke.

Having seen the tips of F18 boards sink after a breakage, I assumed that the foil probably sunk. It was reported to me later in the day that one of the chase boats picked it up; it was floating.

Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect.

I've got a few more. I'll post sometime.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/01/12 03:17 PM

Thanks Jeremy
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/02/12 12:01 AM

Great pics, do we know what that box at the base of the wing is?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/02/12 02:29 AM

Counter balance for wing installation. That and the struts come off to sail.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/02/12 04:24 PM

Posted By: Angelo190471

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 01:52 AM

the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 03:13 AM

Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?

If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.
Posted By: Angelo190471

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 02:45 PM

i cant remember were i read it but the t foils are there is its less likely to pichpole
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 04:41 PM

Cant wait to see these cats race:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: daniel_t

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?


I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.
Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/03/12 07:55 PM

Close up of the team installing the tiller arms.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Those bows look very skinny/low volume compared to the rest of the boat/rig. I wonder if that's why they added the T foils to the rudders. to keep it from going bow-down, or....are they going to try to foil it?

If they can keep the L boards from snapping, I could see where they might be able to foil, but I don't see any means of adjusting the ride height if they do get it up in the air, and they were obviously sailing it on one hull only, so I don't think the intent is to foil it, unless they are going to work their way up to that, after they get used to sailing it.


The rules prohibit any underwater adjustment of the foils (flaps, etc.)...but they do have the ability to hydraulically tilt the daggerboards fore and aft quite a bit. The hydraulic power comes from the manual winching stations.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by daniel_t
Originally Posted by optikid
the tiller look cool. so far i think this is the best looking 72. also are both the oracle boats going to be the same?


I noticed that too. A 72 foot boat with a tiller... I wonder if they are going to keep with that or if it was just something for testing. I noticed that New Zealand's boat was wheels.


It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 12:07 PM

Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

It's a strange tiller too - they can steer the boat while standing up by swinging the rod/bar from side to side. I hope he has something else to hang on to...I have visions of those capsizes where you slide down the trampoline with the tiller in your hand...which makes the rudders turn more into the flip.

The exact same system has been used on Dutch merchant ships since the 1600s.
There are extensions going to each side so he can steer from both hulls though, no need to stand on the center platform.

The steering action is the exact reverse of a normal tiller though, I wonder if they changed that somehow.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah, if they are going 40 knots, I HOPE the driver has a seatbelt! Otherwise it's going to get pretty sporty every time they stuff a bow! I wonder if they'll have a single driving station in the center, with a seat and belt, so the skipper doesn't have to run the full width of the boat with every tack/gybe.

Don't count on it. They're going to optimize every ounce of righting moment.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 02:13 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 02:17 PM

Article - NZ foiling on Waitemata Harbour
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 03:26 PM

Wow! How Cool is that!

I guess they will indeed be foiling in the AC races, that should liven it up a bit! I can't wait to hear what the Lead Bottom Leaning Society at SA will have to say about this!

Can't wait to see just how fast these things will be!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 03:55 PM

It will be interesting to see how they manage foiling around the course. I wonder if they can foil effectively upwind at high angles.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 04:20 PM

Well, if they do crash, at those speeds, it should be spectacular!

Many years ago when we were having a discussion here about how to get more mainstream TV coverage for sailboat racing, I said we needed to make it more like NASCAR, with faster speeds and more 'crashes'. I guess they finally have!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeLacBmYxyU&feature=fvsr

People love to watch expensive stuff crashing at high speed.
Posted By: Gilo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 04:48 PM

How much drag would the windward L foil generate in low winds? (not so probable in SF Bay)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 05:07 PM

rules do not allow use of the windward foil, I do remember reading something about exceptions (rule 47.3)
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 06:28 PM

they didn't want to get into situations where the windward foil was used to pull the boat down for more righting moment...so they disallowed it's use.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 07:30 PM

Looks like it foils pretty well on 3 legs though.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/04/12 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
rules do not allow use of the windward foil, I do remember reading something about exceptions (rule 47.3)

Here is the skinny on rule 47.3:

47.3 Preventing windward daggerboard increasing righting moment
After starting, an AC72 yacht shall have the windward board draft stripe(s) visible so to
confirm that the board is no more than 0.500 m below MWP, unless one of the following
applies:
(a) the windward board does not penetrate the surface of the water for more than 15
continuous seconds;
(b) the yacht is within 300m of a mark;
(c) the yacht is within 30 seconds prior to and after tacking or gybing;
(d) the yacht is sailing less than 15 knots;
(e) the yacht is sailing at less than 90% of its performance relative to the other yacht(s);
(f) the yacht is taking a penalty.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/05/12 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing


...Not wanting to disrespect the team, I called their media rep and asked permission to post the pics. He granted permission, and was appreciative of my respect. ..



That's probably why you and SA weren't a good fit. ;-)
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 01:10 PM

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...ts-AC72-can-foil-sailing-downwind/101812
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 02:37 PM

Excellent article on the technology, broadcast television, speed, close up racing, etc. Plus read about the involvement and background of a key player named Stan Honey.
Making the America's Cup a spectator sport
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 02:42 PM

See how the C-class helped shape the current AC platform.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 04:42 PM

Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


Those two videos are very interesting, and you see what happens at 2:15 on the last one, when they stuff the bows!

I liked the other video above too, where Juan K talks about the C Class, and says "...what have we been doing the past 20 years, these things are so much more efficient!" (wing rigs).

BUT...we know the C Class did try foiling for awhile, and they gave up on it, right? It wasn't paying off on a closed course, right? Or are some of them still doing it around the bouys? Grant Dalton mentions he's not sure if foiling will pay off on a short bouy type course.

SO...are we seeing "The Next BIG Thing" here, in the evolution of sailing technology, and when can I get some L foils and a wing rig for my F16? ;^)

Like I said a long time ago, just hook two Moths together and off we go!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 06:21 PM

Listening to the comments surrounding the teams, my guess is that they are going to be shooting for a semi-foiling mode off the wind and a near full flotation mode upwind. There is a happy point between weight, available power, and efficient foiling. I think the Moth's are just able to come in under this point with one very light (single-hull) boat so they can foil all the way around a race course efficiently. I don't think we have the technology to have a boat light enough to do this on much of a larger scale yet. While we can definitely build a catamaran to foil to weather, it's suffers with wind and water drag to carry it's own weight. It's going to either sail slowly as the foil drag increases with reduced speed or have to sail so far off the wind in order to keep enough power to stay on foils that same water-borne craft will get to A-mark faster because it can sail much higher.

So, if you give up fully foiling to weather, you have to look at how much foil drag you are willing to carry up to A-mark so you can rocket downwind. My bet is that the happy-point is going to be having just enough foil to make the boat really light on the water while going downwind without becoming completely air-borne on foils. This might also make sense given the fact that they aren't allowed any type of active control surfaces under the water and their racing area is a really choppy piece of water.

The "S" boards on NZ are a good indication of this as well (they can change the angle of attack of the horizontal part of their foil as they lift it).

Then again, I could be completely wrong.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 07:19 PM

Timbo,
In reference to the C's foiling not working, Magnus Clarke said he thought that the extra horsepower of the AC45's and 72s could remedy the problems they had with "off yer rocker", so I wouldn't compare C's to the 45s or 72s .Apples and Oranges.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 07:38 PM

I think it's funny that they need a powerboat with 1200 horsepower to keep up with the AC72... talk about carbon footprint smile

Another question popped into my head. Would slapping a wing on a "regular" catamaran cause problems since it can generate so much more speed, forcing the semi-displacement hulls into a pitch-pole?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 07:56 PM

Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.

I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 10:15 PM

more porn . . .
Sounded like the guy in the chase boat wet his pants.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/07/12 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Well...Ben Hall did it a couple years ago on his A cat.

I don't recall pitch-poling to be a problem but maybe some of the A cat guys who raced against him can tell us why he eventually dropped it in favor of a tradional mast/sail combo.


Here's some info on Ben's wing.
Ben Hall's A cat wing http://www.mathran.nl/acat/node/23

Have a big bank account and a bigger ability to keep your boat pointy side up.
Jay, with current design hulls I don't think the wing would necessarily force you into a pitchpole, but the extra weight aloft of it can cause pitching moment than can certainly help go glub.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/12 03:21 AM

I would love to hear Ben's opinion of these AC boats rigs. Where is he now? Is he still racing A cats or is he busy building AC masts?

I did get to see his A cat Wing up close at Gulfport when he was there the year he was testing it, I was amazed at how quickly and easily he was able to step the thing. As he mentions in the aritcle, he tipped the boat up on it's side, next to his trailer box, and then just slid the wing out of the box and hooked it up. It was very quick.

I wish he had spent more time testing and developing it, has anyone seen it (the wing) lately?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/08/12 01:09 PM

He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me.
Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it.
Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 05:55 AM

I herd it was on it's way to it's new home .
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 01:39 PM

Can you imagine the loads when that thing stuffs?! Holy crap!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
He's still racing A's and very well at that. Doing the Hall spars thing. Just had them build some diamond wires for me.
Oracle bought the wing from Ben before Dogzilla was built as their intro to wings. Word on the street is one of our own from this forum now is in possession of it.
Here's a good thread on SA about A cat wings with some comments by Ben.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134280



Thanks for the links and info, interesting stuff! I guess from a speed standpoint, it -might- be a little faster, but from a practical standpoint, having to drop it every night at a regatta, etc, and god forbid you land on it if/when you flip...it could get ugly! A soft sail is pretty easy to roll up after sailing, and it stores in a much smaller box, weighs less, costs less, etc.

Still...those wings are sexy beasts!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 02:23 PM

You don't have to land on it ,just flipping can give you a very expensive , long term repair.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 03:05 PM

Quote
You don't have to land on it ,just flipping can give you a very expensive , long term repair.


Given the nature of the new owner, I bet that the carbon specialists in his area are salivating :P
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/09/12 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
You don't have to land on it ,just flipping can give you a very expensive , long term repair.


Given the nature of the new owner, I bet that the carbon specialists in his area are salivating :P


Or his indentured boatguy/ crew has alot to sort out, if he hasn't already.
My prediction is the wing will be parts for trophies in no time, but I hope I'm way wrong.If I'm not I want a piece.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 03:28 AM

Funny how the same things get rehashed.
Catsailor A cat wing thread
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117940&page=1
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 05:05 AM

damn, no love from this crowd...

Yes, I now have the Ben/Oracle wing and have plans to rebuild/modify it over the winter.

Come spring it should be "interesting" in it's new configuration.

-M
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 12:54 PM

That wing didn't have the benefit of banana foils either when Ben was working with it (I don't think so).
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 01:39 PM

or if it did, it was super early with the curved boards
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 02:44 PM

It didn't but..
I would think combined with the pitching moment the angle of attack of curved boards would change so much it could prove to be a hindrance.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 02:55 PM

Jake,
You ready to get a CnC cutter to make Mike new ribs for that wing?

Mike,
Nothing personal. I saw,first hand at the LAC, just how fragile those wings are. If you don't flip, you might be OK as far as major damage goes. It was rare for a wing to go out and not have to have something done to it when it came back. From simple Clysar repairs to loading it in the back of a pick-up bed in 100s of pieces.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/10/12 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Jake,
You ready to get a CnC cutter to make Mike new ribs for that wing?



As long as he's ready for the ribs to come in 9" x 12" pieces (I am working on buying a 3 axis CNC engraver).

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/11/12 03:38 AM

From what mike told me... it ain't going on his A ... don't know if his plans are super top secret so ill shutup now.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/12 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
From what mike told me... it ain't going on his A ... don't know if his plans are super top secret so ill shutup now.


So, and F20C with wings?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/12 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Undecided
From what mike told me... it ain't going on his A ... don't know if his plans are super top secret so ill shutup now.


So, and F20C with wings?


He doesn't have that anymore either...you really have to run fast to keep up with Mike!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/12/12 07:47 PM

Seacart 30 with wing?
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/14/12 03:37 AM

Interesting seeing the speed/foiling of an AC72 from a powerboat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNb5QJH1vtE&feature=related
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/14/12 12:41 PM

awesome.. to bad it wasn't filmed/produced in hd
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/12 01:06 PM

here's a really nice summary of the various states of the teams...and foiling. As per Loick Peyron (always colorful), the bearaways in the bay may produce some moments where you would be glad to be wearing brown pants....

Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/12 02:47 PM

OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?

shocked shocked shocked
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/12 03:38 PM

1:04 looks like the wing caddy/cart to me.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/16/12 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?

shocked shocked shocked


Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/12 03:47 PM

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/12 04:59 PM

sexy!
Wing, jib and Code Zero ! must be insanely fun
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/19/12 10:26 PM

NZ's Nick Holdroyd on the design for boat #2

Hah! . . .the chase boat
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/20/12 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by David Parker
OK, spy photos have captured the stunning new hull design! The Black Boat is only a diversion to mask the REAL new hull which can be seen in just a fleeting glimpse at 1:04 in this video. Which of you can identify this radical new hull design?

shocked shocked shocked


Looks like the team has secretly enlisted the powers from Gotham City. (hint 2:12 in video)


They have already nick-named it the bat boat.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 09/29/12 03:24 PM

Team Oracle Day 3 pics
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 07:15 PM

Finally . . .
AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed lifted off.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 07:33 PM

wowie wow-woo
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 07:46 PM

Amazing. What does the keel-thingey do?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Amazing. What does the keel-thingey do?


makes it fly above the water.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 08:05 PM

Or not. I mean the big solid looking structure along the center line. Strong back?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/02/12 08:36 PM

Pretty cool . . . and smart. The "L" part of the board is a cassette and is interchangeable for different size/shape inserts. Wonder if the Kiwis did something similar.
Posted By: Angelo190471

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/12 12:33 AM

notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/12 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
Amazing. What does the keel-thingey do?


It is to keep the air from going under the wing. The wing is going to be very close to the tramp at some point.
Posted By: Andinista

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/03/12 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28

Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions.
Flexibility?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/12 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Andinista
Originally Posted by optikid
notice how much the boat shakes when it foils! 3:28

Yes, the leeward hull moves up and down with the waves and the other one remains steady. And on 2:50 both hulls seems to point in different directions.
Flexibility?


I think it's safe to assume that Oracle has determined that platform flex is not that big of a deal. It seemed that way with the big trimaran too. The other teams have gone to great lengths with the posts and rigging to stiffen up the platforms at the cost of weight and wind drag...better or worse? dunno.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/12 02:33 AM

Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/04/12 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Very exciting. And very very interesting. On small boats (under ~30') the moto has always been stiffer is faster. It seems the bigger the boat and the faster you go some give might be faster (lighter), or at least your boat might not blow up (ala nomex cores in the southern ocean)? Definitely be exciting to watch the races, that is for sure!


I've always wondered about that...I know it certainly feels better when the boat is rigid through the waves....but is it faster? People talk about energy lost when a wave makes the platform flex but it is kinda like a spring - you'll get a good bit of that "energy" back on the return...whether that's beneficial or not, I have no idea.
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/12 02:51 PM

From the '70's onward the Tornado got faster the stiffer it became.
Before the Marstrom, new Tornado's were fast.
Finally Marstrom made the sfiffest Tornado with the autoclave technology,
and changing the rear beam to the largest size under class rules helped too.
Marstrom would not have gone to a larger (& stiffer) rear beam if it made the boat slower.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/12 05:05 PM

I think the flex is used as a foil control, not faster just a way to get around the "no manual control" rule.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/12 06:17 PM

With foiling its all about light weight, is the extra stiffness on this sort of length of boat going to impede any chance of it foiling, due to the extra weight of the construction needed to prevent twist.
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/06/12 08:48 PM

surprise surprise

it seems that fluttering

was tearing the boat apart...

"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.

last sentence here

http://www.mercurynews.com/californ...ben-ainslie-leads-strong-showing-opening

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I think the flex is used as a foil control, not faster just a way to get around the "no manual control" rule.


Winner winner chicken dinner.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by erice
surprise surprise

it seems that fluttering

was tearing the boat apart...

"What we have is something that's trying to act like a plane," he told a luncheon audience at the Golden Gate Yacht Club, adding that Oracle's boat needed extensive repairs after foiling at high speed.

last sentence here

http://www.mercurynews.com/californ...ben-ainslie-leads-strong-showing-opening



yikes....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 02:20 PM

Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I think the flex is used as a foil control, not faster just a way to get around the "no manual control" rule.


How would flex be controlling the foiling? They can move the daggers tilting forward or back to control via a ram. I can't see how the boat flex would help them in any way.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
Didn't i see (here) they are only allowed 30 days of training? does all this load testing count towards that 30 days or is that for "race training" whatever/if there is a difference


I think that The emirates video said any more than 5 minutes sailing untethered counted as a day.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 03:22 PM

untethered?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/08/12 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
untethered?


From the towboat.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/14/12 02:34 AM

Set your DVR or watch it this Sunday on NBCSN or VERSUS at 2:30 PM EST.
The Road to the America's Cup - Oracle Team USA
hosted by non other than . . .
you guessed it, our AC genius Todd Harris.

"Tag along as WOAS takes an exclusive inside look at the design and construction of the epic 72-foot catamaran the team will be charging into battle with at the 34th Americas Cup in September 2013. Remarkable feats of engineering and copious amounts of training aren't all that it takes to make an America's Cup champion. It also takes heart and perseverance which, luckily, Oracle Team USA has in abundance."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/16/12 11:11 PM

just happened

Ouch
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/16/12 11:32 PM

More
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/16/12 11:54 PM

abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=8849852#&cmp=twi-kgo-article-8849852
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 12:18 AM

Damn!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 01:41 AM

Posted By: SurfCityRacing

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 01:49 AM

Sequence
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 02:19 AM

NBC bay area video

Oracle Team Website
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 02:36 AM

oh dear lord. Everyone OK?
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 03:26 AM

apparently all ok

wing and platform

not so good

more and more both are looking unrepairable

2nd boat can't be launched until feb2013

looks like they shouldn't have dumped the original requirement for a big and small wing
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 12:11 PM

Wanna bet there'll be a Hobie Bob on the top of the next wing. grin
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by erice
apparently all ok

wing and platform

not so good

more and more both are looking unrepairable

2nd boat can't be launched until feb2013

looks like they shouldn't have dumped the original requirement for a big and small wing


I understand the wing being beyond repair, but the platform too?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 12:38 PM

At least this newscaster has the presence to call it a "pitchpole"
NBC Bay Area

An hour of sad helicopter video footage.


Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by erice
apparently all ok

wing and platform

not so good

more and more both are looking unrepairable

2nd boat can't be launched until feb2013

looks like they shouldn't have dumped the original requirement for a big and small wing


I understand the wing being beyond repair, but the platform too?


I have not seen how the righted it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how te platform got damaged badly. They also said it was badly damamged from foiling.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 02:43 PM

It made it back to the dock turtled,never was righted, so it's a safe bet the wing is a complete loss. I was at least hoping they could save the spar.
All of you have to know it was inevitable. You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 02:50 PM

wonder if larger T-foils on the rudders would have helped.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 02:57 PM

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/47411_439284166108635_1264142852_n.jpg

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 03:00 PM

I can't imagine what it feels like to go from sitting on the aft part of the boat then rise to 40-50'(est) while the transoms are lifting in the air ...
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 03:07 PM



A lot of gory detail, as far as wing breakage in this one.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 04:03 PM

Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.

I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Total shame but not really unexpected. Great thing no one was seriously injured. Think I might get some helmets for those 20kt+ days on the F18/N20.

I'm surprised a little more wasn't done to slow the drift and prevent more damage to the platform? Oracle are the experts for sure and hindsight is 20/20 but maybe ditching the wing and at least righting the platform would have been a good way to get back on the water faster? Sounds like v2 is already in build so maybe not?


Once you ditch the wing you're not righting that platform without a bigass crane. The wing filling with water was what most likely kept them from righting in the first place. There were not many ways to do it different and accomplish anything. Faster righting before the wing filled is about it, and the current seemed to prevent that.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 04:34 PM

No drift Sam. There's a HUGE tide current there.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 05:36 PM

Thanks for the clarification guys. Lee I'm aware of the tidal based current flows in San Fran, just surprised they didn't motor against it but given the problems Cat_Fever outlined that wouldn't have worked.

What are the bets on seeing this thing fly again?
Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/17/12 09:27 PM

Quote
No drift Sam. There's a HUGE tide current there

Don't forget that the outgoing "tide" carrries the entire contents of the Sacramento River as well.

Once outside the Bridge you face the wrath of the entire north Pacific. The north shoal of the outer mouth of the GG is called the Potato Patch. Relativly shallow water, only 25-35 feet deep, makes a tough place to turtle a 131' mast. Huge swells can pump up waves in the 30 foot range but are themselves torn to shreds by the huge current.

Notice the condition of the AC72 right after the flip (pretty clean), then again after and hour of being pounded. I'm surprised there's anything left. Typical day in SF...7 knots westbound outgoing current, 30+ knots of wind coming in from the west, all funneled through the narrow GG. Nice place to turn downwind on a 72 foot cat. Like Butch Cassidy said, "Who are those guys?"
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 03:13 AM

I thought they were supposed to learn not to do that, when they were flipping the 45's!

Did they think the much taller mast would be less prone to burry the bows and pitch-pole?

I'm thinking they need more volume in the bows unless they are going to limit the upper wind strength for racing.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 04:42 AM

Perhaps they should all go back to the AC45's. Plenty of action on the proven design. Also, would allow more teams to take part.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
What are the bets on seeing this thing fly again?


ah, google Larry Ellison. He has almost more money than god. It'll be on the water again ricky-tick I'm sure.

Hell, a local company just spent $31m on an Oracle product, so that should help.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 11:44 AM

They are not allowed to launch the 2nd boat before February next year, and the 2nd wing wont be ready by Christmas apparently.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger



Your fascination with poo is disturbing.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 12:45 PM

BWAHAHAHAHA! That avatar is high-larious!
Posted By: KevinRejda

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 01:15 PM

Funniest one I've seen!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 01:29 PM

I would watch that as an Olympic sport. Especially if they toilets were set up like hurdles.
Posted By: Lockenfisch

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
...You can't push the development edge that hard without some consequences.


Sorry but multihulls pitchpole and break their riggs eversince... its just bad luck if you, me, Oracle or someone else will be the next one day ;-) Here it looks to me as if the recovery and the counteraction to not let the mast, wing go down was too slow. Maybe they had just no idea, never planned that?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 04:00 PM

do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?

Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...

And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?

Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...

And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...


Those foils must have had incredible loads on them during that event...and you would think that when those lifting boards point to the bottom that they drive harder to the bottom. I heard mention that the foil loads tore up the hulls during that dive and they didn't even know if the hulls were repairable.
Posted By: jbecker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 08:12 PM

Also, the main L-foils at that high negative angle of attack must have produced a lot of drag and contributed to slowing the boat, so in addition to pulling the whole boat down, they contributed to the torque loads that forced the bows down.

It will be interesting to see what design changes come out of this. I'm picturing main foils with super strong hinges so that the L-foil part swings to near vertical when top loaded, and back to horizontal under normal upward loads. I wonder if such a thing is possible with modern materials, and if the drag and weight of such a hinge would be acceptable. It would not be an angle of attack control per se, so it seems like it might be acceptable under the rules.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 09:01 PM

We all have had the same problem at every bear away, think A mark in a good blow, many times with the same results (pitchpole).

As you turn from going upwind to downwind, you've got several additional forces all happening at once, to include the centrifical force the rig exerts as it's being swung in the big arc, the added drive from the (momentarlily, until you accelerate) greater aparant wind which is now puhsing the bows down, not lifting the windward hull up, and the added drag of going faster, on the boards which also pulls the bows down, until they get into foiling mode.

From watching that video several times, it looked like a classic bear away nose dive. As they bear away and unroll the jib, the bows go down and never really come back up...they just keep going deeper and deeper as they accelerate, until it's too deep to recover. Use full screen to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drgglIebuQY

On our boats, we can all run to the back, to keep the bows up when we get to A mark and we know it's coming, but they can't shift as much (relative) balast aft, as we do in that situation.

I still think it needs more volume in the bows to help prevent this nose diving. That was the cure for the early Blades, as well as some of the A cats.

You may recall years ago, when the mega cat Playstation had to have it's bows modified, enlarged, etc. The first time they took it out in big wind and waves, they also stuffed the bows and nearly pitched it right over.

The only beach cat I've felt 'safe' on in a big wind bear away was the Inter 20, and it's known for it's huge, fat bows. When I look at the design of the AC72's, I see A cat like, skinny bows. Great for keeping weight off...but not so good for preventing a picth pole.

Remember, they cannot simply 'dump the main' when it gets blowing too hard and you want to bear away, like we can. If they are going to keep going out in 25knots, they'll need bigger bows, or a much better righting system!

It looked very similar to this earlier pitchpole, on the 45' version, nearly identicle;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KNql99zT6s

Now, watch this next video of the first sail of Oracle 17. Pay particular attention to what the bows are doing, they always seem to be pointing down. Near the end of the vid. at 1:50, they are just cruising back to the dock, not pushing it, not even blowing too hard, but going downwind, and the bows are looking like they want to dive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr055W97l4o

Go to 'full screen' you'll have a better look.
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 09:44 PM

the recovered platform looks a lot better than it did after it had turtled and was filling as it disappeared off into the pacific night

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/18/12 09:47 PM

I can hear them on the docks now:

"Hey...get some Duct Tape! And HURRY!"
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 12:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk
In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
do you think the foils may have hurt the hull's ability to recover from the nose-dive during the turn down?

Since those things aren't adjustable, I would figure at some point the foils were actually trying to dive for lobster along with the bows...

And having 131 feet of wing pushing didn't help, either...


They are adjustable. They can adjust the angle of attack. There is a learning curve here and they missed the setting for the conditions at hand. If you check out Sailing Anarchy ,Tide Tech shows that the conditions changed when they made that last bear away. Had they had the time or knowledge to set the foil properly they may have been alright.

They are not counting on forward buoyancy to keep the bows up. They are counting on the foils for that.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk
In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.


So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by rehmbo
Originally Posted by sail7seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLX1XPCQodk
In this video it looks like OR-S is the only AC45 in the group letting out the wing on the bear away. I wonder if the AC72 had the same wing trimmer.


So is the lesson then to travel-in when starting to stuff as the apparent wind shifts aft? Part of that makes sense, but when the apparent wind is at 90°, It would be really tough to override the instinct to dump the traveller. Not sure I'd have enough time to think about it...


Past a certain point, you are just screwed. IF you can keep your speed up through the turn you are better off as you apparent wind will remain more forward. When the boat stuffs hard enough to go over, I don't think anything you can do will save it. Sail in, sail out, it's only going to change the angle with which the mast hits the water. Once it stuffs, the momentum and wind pressure are working against you and you have no helm. I've been out where it took three or four attempts to bear away to get through the turn. The trick was to get through the turn as fast as the foils would let you when the waves and wind are just right. The faster you can make that turn, the better off you will be. Get your speed as fast as possible, hang on, and yank it through hopefully just short of your rudders stalling.

These guys were just hugely overpowered and as they bore away, the rudders were probably stalled and about 1 second later and another second after that, there wasn't enough rudder in the water to have any influence over the direction of the boat.

That wing is ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FEET TALL!!! That's a lot of tomahawk momentum!
Posted By: JeffS

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 06:34 AM

There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon that you could inflate to stop a mast turtling, would something like that have stopped this wing filling with water which stopped the righting?
Posted By: Lockenfisch

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
There was a thread on here a long time ago about a guy that made a CO2 cartridge with balloon


... you can buy one. Just search for: Secumar Auto Inflation Anti-Inversion Mast Float

Somehow not very common. I've never seen a boat equipped with it. Propably because getting a beach cat out of the 100% turtle position by manpower is not so difficult, as far as the boat is not too wide like Tornado, H21, or others.

That "airbag-recovery" could work on any boat I guess.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 03:13 PM

Fill the wing with helium....


So. How much money is uncle larry going to have to shell out to get this beastie back on the water? Any guesses?

What did he spend on the last AC, something like $360M wasn't it? I have buyers remorse spending $200 on a pair of jeans. lol
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 03:35 PM

Somewhere I read this boat cost about $10 Million. Peanuts to Larry.

Oh, but you can still use your $200 jeans...right?
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Somewhere I read this boat cost about $10 Million. Peanuts to Larry.

Oh, but you can still use your $200 jeans...right?



I don't think so he seems to have a duty problem.
Posted By: Lockenfisch

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
you can still use your $200 jeans...right?


He doesn't wear any trousers. Check his avatar.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 04:13 PM

Is that supposed to be Karl?

And all this time I thought it was the crew of Oracle 17 abandoning the boat!
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Fill the wing with helium....


So. How much money is uncle larry going to have to shell out to get this beastie back on the water? Any guesses?

What did he spend on the last AC, something like $360M wasn't it? I have buyers remorse spending $200 on a pair of jeans. lol

He just bought our neighbor island for $500-600 mil. The repair cost will probably come out of his walkin' around money.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 05:59 PM

I can't even fathom that level of wealth. The man plays at a level that basically beyond comprehension.

Posted By: TeamChums

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 06:36 PM

He could have his own private space station orbiting the Earth.
Posted By: tback

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
He could have his own private space station orbiting the Earth.


No, he's more into Japanese Botanical Gardens.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by TeamChums
He could have his own private space station orbiting the Earth.


who says he doesn't?
Posted By: Luiz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/19/12 10:19 PM

After watching the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drgglIebuQY) I think they buried the windward bow first. Can anyone confirm my observation?
If this in fact happened it is possible that someone just dialed too much angle of attack to the leeward foil or not enough AoA to the leeward one.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/20/12 04:06 PM



Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/23/12 09:11 PM

I have it on a relatively high authority that after the big wave of water rushed over the deck, there were only 2 people left on the boat for the ensuing pitchpole.
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/23/12 10:59 PM

and now it seems artemis broke the main beam on their ac72 by tow testing it....

Luna Rossa to launch their ac72 this week

if it's been built as well as it's sister ship they should be up and flying in no time
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/25/12 03:09 PM

The Whole Story
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/25/12 03:15 PM

The trimmer said, "as the bows went down, I crawled as far forward as i could.

- I guess it's the same on all boats... it's the crews fault we capsized.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/25/12 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
The trimmer said, "as the bows went down, I crawled as far forward as i could.

- I guess it's the same on all boats... it's the crews fault we capsized.


HAH! +1 on that smile
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 10:59 AM

Latest AC72 entry

Launch

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 11:56 AM

Man that thing is gonna be blinding people.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Man that thing is gonna be blinding people.


No kidding - they sure put that new flexible chrome vinyl to the test. That stuff is about $1,600 in material alone to do an F18.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 01:29 PM

Why would they add the vinyl?

Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?

That and it's much harder for the RC to pick out one 'over early' white hull out of a crowd of white hulls.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 02:31 PM

I would say it is paint. They have been using it on F1 cars for several years.
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/26/12 11:05 PM

film

[Linked Image]
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/27/12 03:34 AM

Film is lighter than paint and easier to fix. That is why Formula cars use it.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/28/12 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Film is lighter than paint and easier to fix. That is why Formula cars use it.


Unique Chrome Finish
The color of the Formula 1 car was a very special wish from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes. For AkzoNobel Automotive & Aerospace Coatings, whose highest ambition is to always get color right, this request was a challenge to relish. Working closely with the McLaren paintshop team we exclusively developed the unique and spectacular looking chrome livery which millions of people see every race weekend.

“It has to provide the right impact that you are looking for through the television cam, when the car comes by with high speed. Our brand needs to stand out and to be clear. And of course, we want the other drivers to be intimidated of what’s coming behind them." Jonathan Neale, Managing Director, McLaren Racing.

“I love the car I drive. I think it’s the most beautiful car on the whole grid. The paint job is the best - I think it’s the most stunning car out there," said Lewis Hamilton during a BBC radio interview about his Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-26.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 10/28/12 02:35 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/12 12:51 PM

Luna Rossa Flies

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/03/12 01:00 PM

Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/04/12 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Film is lighter than paint and easier to fix. That is why Formula cars use it.


apparently the mirror treatment does weight more as used on LR as they have the same paint underneath as etnz use as their final copat
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/04/12 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Why would they add the vinyl?

Seems like extra weight to me. Maybe it's some type of fancy paint? Still, fancy paint adds extra wt. too, which is why most racing boats are white, right?



As far as the AC and its expenses are concerned. I am sure making the sponsors happy to keep the money coming is pretty high on the priority list.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/11/12 01:42 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/11/12 01:43 PM

makes you wonder . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 11/30/12 02:18 PM

This seems more appropriate here than in the Olympic thread.
Ben Ainslie
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 09:13 AM

ouch! downfall video with larry as hitler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1OeudSStne8
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 01:31 PM

not amusing
Originally Posted by erice
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 02:19 PM

Poor taste especially considering Larry's Jewish roots.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 02:57 PM

I found it fairly amusing
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 03:51 PM

I'll bet even Larry thought it was funny!
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 11:00 PM

That was funny!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/06/12 11:43 PM

First time I saw one of those Hitler videos it was this one. I still think its the best. Though that one was pretty ****ing funny.

Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/07/12 12:50 AM

American Airlines Pilots made one too, I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu42f-pHClw
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/08/12 04:40 PM

She passed the test.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/08/12 06:24 PM

So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/08/12 06:26 PM

That jib looks like a hanky when they pan back. Kinda makes you wonder if there is a point they'd just drop it?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/09/12 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
So at best vmg of 42 knots, that makes the Tractor still probably not as fast as the current crop of Tri's which I think are averaging around 38 knots for 24 hours at a time ?


Designing a boat for 80% reaching and designing a boat for refined windward leeward are two very different things.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/20/12 01:14 AM

The latest from the Oracle camp
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/20/12 01:17 AM

What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .
Posted By: erice

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/20/12 08:01 AM

or17 is going back together with good stiff looking beams

hopefully she'll be flying again in feb.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/12 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .

O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/12 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by mummp
What to do when your 30 days are used up . . . .

O.K., this video has my curiosity up. The boat is a one design SL33, designed by Morrelli & Melvin and built by Hakes Marine . The video shows it foiling nicely, but it looks like it has a curved foil on port (windward hull) and "possibly" a L foil on starboard. Can't tell what the rudders are. Here are some pics of the SL33 foiling with a soft rig. Looks like it might be an S foil on the windward hull. Any body have any knowledge here?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Obfuscation. Public released video. I wouldn't rely to heavily on what you see.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/21/12 08:08 PM

This isn't really knowledge but, apparently the 33's are test platforms and they are trying every type of foil they can think of on them. even the 72's have 2 different foils often.
from the photos it looks like the curved part of the foil is mostly in the hull when in the down position. the business end is an "L". the cant of the "L" is something to play with as are the tip foils shape/angle, etc.
Rudders have similar aspects to play with as well. it seems to me that an end plate on a daggerboard would help quite a bit to windward as well as become a hydro-foil off the wind. finding a happy medium between these 2 points of sail and the characteristics of the end plate would be a job, and require all sorts of testing.

there is some debate as to whether the extreme fineness ratio of the 72's may be fast enough to eliminate the need to fully foil in an upwind/downwind course with some 1-2 minute legs.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/23/12 01:36 PM

I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/24/12 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
I really don't think we will see them foiling upwind. I think they'll use the foils to make the boat a little lighter in the water - but not foil born. Downwind, however, probably.

Agreed, the no foiling to windward seems to be the consensus.
Most likely they are canting the lee board for sailing off the wind, which when combined with the wing tip or "L" gives the enough vertical lift to fully foil. Their speed may or may not increase, and their angle downwind may improve. Some speculation says both speed and angle will improve from foiling.
They are limited in the number of 72 dagger boards that they are allowed to make, but they can make as many SL33 or ac 45 dagger boards as they want to help figure this new development out. Mr. Melvin is on the design team for NZ so it makes sense for them to use the 33 as a test platform. Atrtemis focused on the big wing first and don't appear to be in agreement that fully foiling is the way to go.
the original mockup of the 72s showed banana boards, but i imagine that they work better on small cats that are crew weight trimmed, and big tris that have a regular board in the center hull. once they tried "L" and "T" foils they didn't look back.
can you imagine flying into the leeward gate at 40 knts., having to round up and crank the daggerboard to a de-canted position? what a learning curve this contest must have.
On the jibes it seems like they would set the new board before the jibe, but when 17 capsized going into their jibe they still had the 1 board up. if it had been down maybe both hulls would have been clear of the water and nosing in would not have been an issue.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/27/12 11:59 AM

Dear Santa:
All I want for Christmas is a wing!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 12/27/12 12:00 PM

America's Cup in Photos
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/03/13 02:59 PM

Can't wait to see some video of Jimmy foiling the Moth.

New Years Resolution? . . . "keep the AC72 upright" . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/09/13 12:00 PM

Oracle's New Wing


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/15/13 04:29 PM

ETNZ boat#2
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/28/13 09:20 PM

Coutts: "I'm optimistic"
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/28/13 10:01 PM



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 05:13 PM

Oh my!
Free swag . . .
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 07:40 PM

no way is that for free.

somebody's pulling our leg
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
no way is that for free.

somebody's pulling our leg

I think it's legit, it's also posted on the official AC's Facebook page.

Maybe they already tried selling it, the market for 130ft trimaran day sailors can't be that big smile
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 09:21 PM

and it's in two pieces.... on purpose?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 09:50 PM

it's probably the one that broke...but I don't understand why they have pictures of dagger board molds and the like in that posting. It seems out of character.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/29/13 10:25 PM

"Other carbon fibre items (molds, boom, broken mast, etc) from the same boat are available."

Hmm, how to get from SF to Annapolis...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/30/13 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
"Other carbon fibre items (molds, boom, broken mast, etc) from the same boat are available."

Hmm, how to get from SF to Annapolis...


Go get the free mast, stick it on a Laser, and sail it 'round the Horn!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/30/13 02:27 PM

Looks like the board molds are up for grabs.

Looks like something Krantz could use to turbo his Reynolds :P
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/30/13 02:48 PM

Karl #2 has been looking into a bigger mast for his viper. Maybe this will work for him.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/30/13 02:57 PM

Its easy to forget how big that crap is until you see those molds in the parking lot.

If the add is fake, I cant really see how they could be worth much.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 01/30/13 03:32 PM

Not many bridges high enough for that mast either.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/04/13 05:24 PM

Oracle countdown to relaunch
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/04/13 10:05 PM

Team NZ has launched their 2nd AC72 today.
article here
Let's pour the champagne on the hull to christen her, don't want to break the carbon!

.
.
.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the Pacific in SF . . .
Looks like the new Oracle boat has done away with the tiller.



more boat porn . . .
image 1
image 2
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by mummp

Looks like the new Oracle boat has done away with the tiller.



What makes you say that?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp

Looks like the new Oracle boat has done away with the tiller.



What makes you say that?

http://livesaildie.com/oracle-team-usa-ac72-v17-1/

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/8/teams/11540/improved-oracle-team-usa-boat-back-in-the-water

Some pics from Jeremy at Sail Revolution

wheel
more
more

Somebody mentioned this early on in this thread and was spot on . . .

“The amount that the platform racked (twisted) was a trade-off with weight and windage in the structure of the boat,” he explained. “That trade-off is still there. We’ve made some subtle changes that will reduce the racking, but again, it’s a design decision trading off windage and weight.”
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 02:19 AM

Some NZ goodies . . .

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 02:58 AM

I hope that wheel base articulates (it looks like it might)...it's AWFULLY close to that winch.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 11:34 AM

I have wondered why some of the foils haven't been shaped like the new OR foils. From my aviation days, it seems the dihedral there would create some extra stability.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 12:38 PM

Dont really understand why the helming position is so low (apart from windage), shouldnt he be able to oversee the whole boat from that position? (Especially with matchracing?).
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 05:42 PM

Great interview with Grant Dalton! Enlightening indeed.

Dalton referring to Oracle 17 "It's going to go like stink upwind!"

NZ named their second AC72 - Aotearoa
(Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand, meaning the land of the long white cloud, said to the the first sighting of New Zealand by the first migration.)

This is first of a series of four with Grant Dalton, Kevin Shoebridge (COO on the shorecrew), Dean Barker (Skipper on the sailing aspects) and Nick Holroyd (Design Director).



Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 06:02 PM

are they going to dangle all over the side like the AC45's or is hiking not allowed on the big boats?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 06:26 PM

Saaweeeeet!

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 06:32 PM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 06:37 PM

thanks for all the updates Philip
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 07:35 PM

I find it interesting that their daggerboards are so far forward...I presume this enhances straight line speed at the expense of tacking speed. If so, I suppose they're not planning on any tacking duels.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 07:56 PM

The got a nice hole in the stern yesterday when a chase boat got in the wrong place. A nice piece of tape and they kept sailing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 10:54 PM

Looks like Jimmy is not the only member of the
"stuff an AC72" club, although he gets the trophy.
0:29 in video.

These machines are awesome.




Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/05/13 11:29 PM

This Dean Barker interview is the second in the series of four. We've already seen team boss Grant Dalton. . . . to be followed up with Kevin Shoebridge (shore boss and COO on the logistics of the AC72 campaign) and Technical Director, Nick Holroyd. Enjoy.

Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 12:41 AM

They're that far forward to allow the boat to balance fore & aft when up on the foil. It's not directly under the CG due to the dynamic forces on the wing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 05:12 PM

check out the lights on the trailing edge of the new main beam, which is (intended to reduce racking).

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 10:00 PM

Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 10:15 PM

Great way to spend a summer in SF.

2013 ‘Summer of Racing’ calendar

Download the full race calendar here
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 10:23 PM

Its flying again smile
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Its flying again smile
[Linked Image]

. . . and up wind.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51



The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/06/13 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
Play this back in full 1080P HD. Nice for the first day back. Plus a little foiling action at 2:51



The shot of the boards when it's sailing vs. being hauled ,look like different foils. When hauled and dropped it appears to have a knuckle and the L goes well past 90 degrees, but the shots of it sailing look like a regular 90 degree L foil.


I'm pretty sure they had two different foils in the boat. The starboard board was straight and had the inverted V-wing with the knuckle at the joint. The port board appeared to have a soft curve to the length of it and had a curved radius shaping smoothly into the horizontal foil with no knuckle.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 05:47 AM

Here is the Kevin Shoebridge interview in the series.



and here is the (last in the series) interview with Nick Holroyd, Technical Director.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Can't wait to see some video of Jimmy foiling the Moth.


Jimmy on the moth.

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCxbqZpCUAAp6Nu.jpg:large[/img]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 05:59 AM

Some nice eye candy here.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 01:17 PM

It looks like the hulls will gradually diminish until all that is left is a rail to attach the foils to.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 01:57 PM

I think it has been mentioned here before, but I can't find it; what is that center structure for, that is in the middle of the boat, below the tramp?

Is it some type of structural support or an aerodynamic end plate for the wing?

Or is it where they put the mechanical systems/gearing, etc. for trimming the wing...or...??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
what is that center structure for, that is in the middle of the boat, below the tramp?

beer cooler
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I think it has been mentioned here before, but I can't find it; what is that center structure for, that is in the middle of the boat, below the tramp?

Is it some type of structural support or an aerodynamic end plate for the wing?

Or is it where they put the mechanical systems/gearing, etc. for trimming the wing...or...??


I read somewhere that it contains hydraulic equipment and doubles as an extension of the wing although I wonder just how much it helps.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/11/13 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think it has been mentioned here before, but I can't find it; what is that center structure for, that is in the middle of the boat, below the tramp?

Is it some type of structural support or an aerodynamic end plate for the wing?

Or is it where they put the mechanical systems/gearing, etc. for trimming the wing...or...??


I read somewhere that it contains hydraulic equipment and doubles as an extension of the wing although I wonder just how much it helps.


and the hookers
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/13 02:15 AM

So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?

[Linked Image]


Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/14/13 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
So how the F are they controlling the attitude of this beasty?

[Linked Image]


Sometimes it looks like she's running bow up, others nose down. It certainly isn't crew weight doing that much. Angle of attack on the boards? or are they pumping water around to get things done?


I don't know about water ballast - but I know they can control the fore/aft angles of the daggerboard trunks. They're aren't allowed to have movable foils/flaps that articulate under the water.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/16/13 02:56 AM

Well, clearly less racking then before. I'm wondering if this might be a good thing. Very exciting to watch.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/16/13 03:50 AM

Seems like yesterday. It's been 3 years.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/16/13 04:01 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/16/13 04:07 AM

Hum. There's a lot of foiling going on without the geneker.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/17/13 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by mummp

Watch at 1:41 in video. On a bear away, the platform begins to pitch and immediately the lee bow rises in attitude and the lee hull foils at a moderately low speed. Could this be the result of adjusting the angle of attack of the foil? Seems very responsive.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/18/13 01:37 PM

It's also appears to have accelerated very quickly as soon as that hull came up.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/21/13 12:44 PM

NZ's Sphincter Factor "10"

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/21/13 01:27 PM

Can we hurry up and tweak done class rules and make this happen on a beach cat? Something tells me these guys have done their homework.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/23/13 02:50 PM

Sligsby to helm Oracle Team USA at ACWS Naples
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/23/13 03:43 PM



The B-team gets promoted so the A-team can keep working on big betty.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/24/13 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
NZ's Sphincter Factor "10"

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Seems to me that they got plenty of rudder in the water.

Nothing to worry about :P
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/24/13 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


The B-team gets promoted so the A-team can keep working on big betty.

The A-Team will not be allowed to sail the AC72 during the ACWS event though.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/25/13 12:03 AM

"he has a set of button that control the shape of the wing – the camber and twist. But the difference is that those buttons trigger the hydraulics and the hydraulics are powered by somebody grinding. Every time he presses a button it spends some of the hydraulic pressure and that has to be topped up by somebody grinding."

Bundy talks about who's doing what on the AC72

Interesting
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/26/13 04:20 PM

Looks like Artemis is heading back to the shed for some upgrades.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/26/13 09:25 PM

Artemis building 2nd AC72
Good Read.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/27/13 09:12 AM

These boats really are huge:


Video or Oracle up close (cant embed Vimeo):
http://vimeo.com/59580291
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 02/27/13 10:54 AM

Just one more then smile
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/05/13 10:38 PM

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/08/13 10:26 PM

-
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/08/13 10:58 PM

good lawd...that's going to be a handful in SF.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/09/13 12:16 AM

video no work frown
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/09/13 12:24 AM

-
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/09/13 01:54 AM

Fackin nuts right there. That turn down from the reach was ridiculous.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/09/13 10:54 AM

Removed the previous videos to post this one, in Full HD no less.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:22 AM

more than 24 hours since a post in the open forum . . .
that's got to be a record. Here some AC goodies


A little AC history

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:30 AM

Russell Coutts interview.

and some fun facts on Larry Ellison here and here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:41 AM

check out the safety gear
photo 1
photo 2
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:46 AM

yahoo!
http://tvnz.co.nz/sailing-news/team-nz-benefit-practice-race-video-5364295


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:54 AM

Jimmy Spithill interview Part 1

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 02:33 PM




Wait.... There's going to be another 72? As in a third? Or is this from before the second one hit the water, it doesn't really sound that way though.

Jesus, it must be awesome being Larry.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 02:56 PM

I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.

I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I lost a little track of things to ... but I'm pretty sure the 72 they are sailing currently is the first boat's hulls and cross beams put back together with a new wing. So, it's technically still the "first" boat.

I know the teams were limited, by rule, to two boats - so there shouldn't be a third.


This is correct. This is boat v1.b

v1.a went swimming under the golden gate.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 03:41 PM

Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Jesus, it must be awesome being Larry.

I look out the window and see his island every day.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....


The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners. It's not all that different than how we show up on the beach for an event like the Tybee with sponsor decals.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 06:50 PM

Yeah, but..... Your sponsors, and mine (my cabinet shop), aren't exactly on the same plane as Oracle.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Yeah, but..... Your sponsors, and mine (my cabinet shop), aren't exactly on the same plane as Oracle.


Oh, I dunno...just a big tax write-off! ;-)
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....


The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.


Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....


The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.


Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?


No way condom sales could support that Team. Sheiks. Tim you're nuts.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Yeah, but..... Your sponsors, and mine (my cabinet shop), aren't exactly on the same plane as Oracle.

You are probably outspending Larry several times over income/percentage wise.
He also bought an airline btw, you cant have an island without it:
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2013/02/27/larry-ellison-buys-hawaiis-island-air/
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/12/13 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
He also bought an airline btw, you cant have an island without it:

I see Larry's planes fly by every day.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Ah. Still good to have a primary sponsor with bottomless pockets. I'll paint my Viper black and slap an Oracle sticker on it for a mil a year. Seems fair....


The truth is, except for New Zealand, all of these teams are the toys of their rich owners.


Why is; -EMIRATES- team New Zealand any different? You don't think they are a toy of the Shieks?


hmmm...true. They're just less in the face of things I suppose.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 04:01 AM

I spend a lot of my layovers in Dubai.

Their intent is to win the AC, and have the next AC in Dubai.

Nothing wrong with that, it's just money well spent.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I spend a lot of my layovers in Dubai.

Their intent is to win the AC, and have the next AC in Dubai.

Nothing wrong with that, it's just money well spent.


How pissed will all those kiwis be if they win the AC then don't defend in NZ?

HAH.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Timbo
I spend a lot of my layovers in Dubai.

Their intent is to win the AC, and have the next AC in Dubai.

Nothing wrong with that, it's just money well spent.


How pissed will all those kiwis be if they win the AC then don't defend in NZ?

HAH.


I'm sure it won't be a surprise to the team, but I bet their media would have a circus with it.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 05:23 PM

I would be really surprised if ETNZs defence will be held anywhere else than Auckland.
For completely selfish reasons I hope either Artemis or LR win the cup (less travel!).
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/13/13 07:25 PM

I'll bet if the Sheik of the Emirates has anything to say about it, and he does (ie, FUNDING $$$) it will be held in Dubai, should ETNZ win.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/17/13 01:56 PM

Jimmy Spithill interview part 2

[Linked Image]
Posted By: konglo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/18/13 11:08 AM

In all fairness to the spaceship down under . .
_____________________________
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/22/13 07:15 PM



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/22/13 07:18 PM

What did Bundy get on his Birthday?
how 'bout helming the ac72 . . .
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/22/13 07:22 PM

Killer shot from a GoPro
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/27/13 12:59 PM

Spy vs Spy: Information and Misinformation

Nice.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/27/13 05:41 PM

not a dry boat by any means...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/27/13 07:49 PM

These boats are just pure porn.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/28/13 01:23 AM

Naw, they're more wholesome than that. An amalgam of the beach volley ball chicks and that jiggly SI model.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/28/13 02:26 PM

"wholesome porn" I like the sound of that...
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/28/13 06:53 PM

Like a Norman Rockwell painting with a money shot?
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/28/13 08:16 PM

Jeez! U R 1 sick puppy.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 01:53 AM

Give me a midget, a donkey, and a gimp mask, I'll show you sick.
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 02:52 AM

Quote
Give me a midget, a donkey, and a gimp mask, I'll show you sick.


Clearly you've never been to Tijuanna...that's on every corner down Revolution Blvd. along with the hot dog/taco stands.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 03:39 AM

A weed eater, live chicken and some peach preserves.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Give me a midget, a donkey, and a gimp mask, I'll show you sick.


Best I can do is three dwarves and a bucket of eels.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 12:09 PM

you all need to get on the water ASAP
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 03/29/13 12:59 PM

Cabin fever, at it's worst!

I'm going down to Islamorada later today for the weekend, you guys have fun shoveling snow...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/01/13 12:03 PM

. . . now back to our regular porn schedule

image 1
image 2
image 3
image 4
The Big Fella

ETNZ's Secret Weapon Revealed
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/01/13 12:53 PM

Sounds like I will make the same modification to my boat, I expect you will see us foiling as well soon.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/02/13 01:51 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/13 01:09 PM

Russell Coutts interview
"once we get our two 72s on th...those two boats against each other"

Seven minutes of hell
Don't mess with Jimmy
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/13 01:13 PM

Friday porn
1
2
3

It's time to go


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/05/13 01:35 PM

Good read. Two part interview with Oracle's COO Grant Simmer. Some good stuff regarding the platform racking, AC development and bunch of other goodies. Fill your coffee cup . . .

Part One
Part Two
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 03:21 AM

Oracle Wing Ver. 3.0

[Linked Image]

Oracle AC72 Ver. 2.0 (aka: USA17-2)

[Linked Image]

New paint scheme. Looks like a smaller center pod.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[img]http://pressure-drop.us/imagehost/images/45616515896092936520.jpg[/img]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 03:32 AM

more

pics
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 03:36 AM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 03:40 AM

More great pictures from onboard Artemis AC72
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 03:50 AM


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/23/13 09:49 PM

[Linked Image]


This picture is begging for a caption . . .
anyone wanna take a jab at it?
[Linked Image]
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/24/13 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by mummp

[Linked Image]


The front fell off?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/24/13 07:49 PM

The new boat is...

Invisible!
Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/24/13 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
[Linked Image]


Oracle joins Mercedes to announce their new SLS-AC72.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/24/13 09:31 PM



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/25/13 03:03 AM

Ver. 2.0 flies
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/25/13 10:10 PM

Thing of beauty . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/13 01:26 PM

Looking more like both beams have morphed into aerowings.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/13 01:57 PM

Not a bad idea, at 40 knots they could be generating decent lift.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/13 02:05 PM

I wonder if they've got bladders full of helium in the hulls. I thought back when Larry won the cup on the big Tri, someone said they had some helium in the amas to lighten it up?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/26/13 02:58 PM

Aero beams are primarily for drag reduction. They are trying to re-attach the flow aft of the tramp and keep it attached forward of the tramp. Attached flow is much less drag than fully detached flow (i.e the wake coming off a round or square beam).

Remember the prototypes on hull #1? They didn't build them there for a reason; CFD is good but modelling separated flow effectively is more of a rare art form than a science at this point. Much easier to instrument your system in a wind tunnel, i.e put tell tales all over your ribbed beam and design the solid beam from there.

Gonna be a fun summer with the AC and C-class action...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 02:02 AM

CNN article on Ben Ainslie
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 02:03 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 02:20 AM

The Wind Gods - Official Trailer



The blurb released with the trailer describes it as:

'Awe-inspiring boats that reflect the unlimited reach of human ingenuity, breathtaking views, action, tension, excitement, consummate skill, the pursuit of lifelong dreams and the tempestuous romance between sailors and the sea, set against a soaring musical score: this is The Wind God's, the story of the 33rd America's Cup race.

'In a quest to bring the oldest trophy in International Sports back to America, Oracle Corporation's Larry Ellison organizes an elite team to sail USA-17, the most technologically advanced sailboat ever built, in a challenge against the defending Swiss team Alinghi, which has held the cup for seven years.

'The film documents the effort from start to finish, with intimate portraits of the competitors, fascinating insights into the cup's history, and sweeping cinematography of the race. But more than that, The Wind Gods is a tribute to the adventurous spirit that leads men to test their limits, by challenging the elements, the sea, and fate.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 12:20 PM

both of those are apparently in 3D...I'll have to try that on my TV tonight.

Is "The Wind Gods" a movie?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 01:25 PM

am I correct in assuming that Artemis doesn't foil yet?
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 01:36 PM

I believe they are foiling now
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
both of those are apparently in 3D...I'll have to try that on my TV tonight.

Is "The Wind Gods" a movie?


Is the garden hose coming inside for the complete experience?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
I believe they are foiling now


Incorrect. They are firmly still in the displacement camp until at least they release Boat numero duo.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by bacho
I believe they are foiling now


Incorrect. They are firmly still in the displacement camp until at least they release Boat numero duo.


Your right, the red bows on OR #2 had me thinking incorrectly.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by bacho
I believe they are foiling now


Incorrect. They are firmly still in the displacement camp until at least they release Boat numero duo.


Are you sure? they talked about structural improvements on the hull and the vid showed foils on the rudders.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 04/29/13 03:13 PM

They are foiling with AC45, Moths, but the new 72 wont hit the water for another few months.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/03/13 07:04 PM


Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/03/13 08:06 PM

At 3:10 look at how F-L-A-T the hulls are!
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 06:53 PM

Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website



PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.

The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website


PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.

The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.


$10 says you have to dig deep to find a catamaran reference on there (I haven't looked).

OK...I looked - I take that back. It actually looks pretty nice.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 07:15 PM

dug a little deeper...and the "detail" on catamarans is really bad. It points out nearly as many negatives as positives and glosses over the majority of catamaran sailing. There shouldn't be any "direct" negatives listed on any of these 'more detail' pages.

Quote

WHAT
Multihull sailboats come in a variety of types and sizes. Catamarans have two hulls, while trimarans feature three.
In general, multihulls are faster and lighter than monohulls. However, multihulls are typically slower at turning. These boats do not have a keel.

WHY
Larger Catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats. They are also built for speed, which makes them great racing boats. Also, they do not capsize as easily. The stable platform or deck area improves safety and helps keep you dry. Larger catamarans make good cruising and long distance boats too. Small multihulls are typically simple, inexpensive boats. They are also easy to launch from the beach.


So, let's see the negatives listed for small (non cruising): slower at turning, do not have a keel, unstable and capsize easily (listed as an anti-negative for a 'big one'), wet (anti-negative again), and some might say "simple" is a negative if not just a mischaracterization written by someone that has clearly never set foot on a small multihull.

Is that the two most exciting pictures they could find of multihull sailing? What is up with choosing that top one - it looks like a trainwreck just happened and the second one (while cute) doesn't show any excitement. Compare that to the others while you're on there too.

compare that to the "small boat sailing" and you'll wonder why anyone sails catamarans at all (besides large cruisers).

Quote
WHAT
Small boat sailing is a simple, inexpensive way to get started in the sport. The fundamental basics of sailing are most easily learned in small boats. Many small boats are designed specifically for youth, and most provide a lifetime of enjoyment for adults as well. Because of their size and simplicity, many small sailboats can be sailed single handed or with a single crew member. Small boat performance, depending on the design, may range from stable and relaxing to wet and wild.

WHY
Small boat sailing can bring you relaxing days on the water, adventurous family fun or challenging competition. By learning to sail a small boat with a US Sailing certified instructor, you’ll learn the skills you need to build your confidence and sail the boat effectively and safely. If you become a boat owner, small boats are affordable and easy to transport (car-top or trailer) and to store. They are simple to rig, allowing you to get on the water faster, and enjoy more time sailing.


let's see...negatives for 'small boats'? errrr....none.

Come to think of it, what is up with the line clearly drawn between Multihull, small boats, and large boats? Can a multihull not also be a small boat and a large boat? Why isn't it "small boat; dingy and multihull", "Large boat; monohull and multihull" or something. This is dumb. Not any of the other descriptions for the other "types" of sailing means lists any negatives but the multihull version is full of them.

Crap like this makes me glad I choose not to renew my US Sailing membership for the first time in a long time.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 07:44 PM

I'm going to leave the "Sailing Basics" page alone and just shake my head.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I'm going to leave the "Sailing Basics" page alone and just shake my head.


Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way....turn
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm going to leave the "Sailing Basics" page alone and just shake my head.


Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way....turn


Wait... Are you saying that there is more to it than that?
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm going to leave the "Sailing Basics" page alone and just shake my head.


Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way....turn


Better off Dead. What do I win?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/06/13 09:12 PM

2 dollars
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/13 03:28 AM

OK....clearly I'm the only one that sees the issues with the way the Multihulls are presented there - but I promise we got about 1/10 the marketing of any other "boat type" on there. It really is a marketing faux pas to point out so many negatives for something you are trying to "promote". Who proof read that and thought it was OK?
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/13 03:50 AM

Those multi hull pics were sooo lame. I just want to go learn how to sail one of those. lol Jake I am with you.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/13 07:20 AM

The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better.
Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/07/13 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
The descriptions for small boats and other monohulls are also pretty lame if that makes you feel any better.
Why dont you contact them and submit an alternative text?


Lame, yes...negative? no. There is no contact on that site anywhere. I've sent a message to info@ussailing.org
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/08/13 02:24 PM

they wrote me back with assurance that they aren't intentionally favoring any type of boat and that they will review it and be consulting their multihull constituents. Apparently, they looked up my membership status. wink
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/08/13 10:24 PM

Sweet!
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/08/13 11:07 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 12:56 PM

Television deals, details and conflict revealed
.
.
.
60 seconds with Nick Holroyd
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 12:59 PM


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 01:02 PM

pic1

pic2
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 06:54 PM

Say hello to Artemis ver.2.0
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 06:57 PM

ETNZ AC72 lands in San Francisco Bay
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:10 PM

Artemis AC 72 capsize
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:10 PM

anybody have a link to that shoreline cam?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
anybody have a link to that shoreline cam?

http://207.150.197.186/
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:20 PM

Live video here:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/live
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:29 PM

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia...capsize-reported-in-San-Francisco/109306
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:38 PM

SA is reporting that crew are receiving CPR... **** this doesn't look good.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 08:50 PM

live cam from another angle
Golden Gate Bridge base
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:03 PM

quoting Sail World
"Video shown on a local TV Channel shows the boat completely upside down, and with the wingsail smashed, in a similar outcome to that which occurred on the October 6, 2012 incident with Oracle Team USA."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:14 PM

Coast Guard Lt. Jeannie Crump says the Artemis Racing catamaran carrying a Swedish flag capsized just after 1 p.m. Thursday (UST) near Treasure Island, the former naval station located in the bay.

All 12 people on board have been accounted for.

Crump says the injured crew member was taken to a nearby yacht club and would be moved to the hospital. She didn't know the extent of the person's injuries.

The 11 other people on board were transferred to a support boat operated by Oracle Racing, which is defending its America's Cup title from last year in San Francisco this summer.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:15 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:15 PM

That's a total loss, but appears to be ver. 1.0
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:17 PM

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...swedish-boat-capsizes-rescue-boats-swarm
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:19 PM

Holy Cows! No bueno.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:20 PM

live chopper video
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/live-video/
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:21 PM

this is your feed
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:23 PM

radio apparently reporting that CPR was unsuccessful....

frown frown frown
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:24 PM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[img]http://bangphotos.smugmug.com/photos/i-FNQfPD6/0/L/i-FNQfPD6-L.jpg[/img]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:27 PM

Sailor dies! This is just awful
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...sizes-off-Treasure-Island-206820701.html
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 09:56 PM

Reports are that a second person was injured.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/americas-cup-boat-capsizes-san-210048918--spt.html
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/olympian-dies-in-americas-cup-training-20130510-2jbhw.html
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:26 PM

"It is with immense sadness that Artemis Racing confirms the tragic death of crewmember Andrew “Bart” Simpson today in San Francisco."

Very Sad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Simpson_%28sailor%29

http://lessadmin.wordpress.com/2013...s-crew-member-dies-in-training-accident/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/10/s...-dies-in-americas-cup-accident.html?_r=0

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:27 PM

http://artemis-racing.americascup.c...andrew-simpson-dies-in-training-accident
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:37 PM

That's horrible.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:38 PM

He died from one of the things that scares me the most about catamarans.. upside down they can drown you.

Apparently he got pinned under the boat.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:44 PM

I thought these guys carried air? I remember seeing something that the Oracle guys were.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:49 PM

Oracle definately do, I'm not sure about the other teams.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I thought these guys carried air? I remember seeing something that the Oracle guys were.


Not much use when you are unconscious frown
Looks like the whole boat imploded somehow.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/09/13 11:43 PM



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 12:58 AM

Interesting article. I can only hope that something is learned at the expense of life from this tragic event.
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.a...fter-artemis-overturns-san-fran/1863087/
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 01:02 AM

Wow. A very sad day.

Thoughts and prayers to his wife and kids.

Here's another article:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/sailor-dies-in-capsize-of-americas-cup-boat-050913
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 10:52 AM

My prayers go out to his family.

It's easy to forget how dangerous all of this can be.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 12:02 PM

A report in Wired.com said:

Preliminary reports indicate Artemis’s boat didn’t capsize because the sailors were pushing too hard or made a mistake, as was the case with Team Oracle. The problem was with the boat itself, either faulty engineering or faulty construction. The boat simply broke apart under sail, folded, then flipped. The Artemis boat has had a history of cracking and problems with the carbon fiber used in the twin 'beams' — the two girders that lash the two narrow hulls together. The boat had been in and out of the shed numerous times in an attempt to correct those problems. Today, however, the forward beam — the girder in front of the sail — gave way during a practice run. The two hulls, no longer connected, began sailing in slightly different directions. This caused one hull to snap just forward of the aft beam, and the mast, held up by high-tension rigging connected to the front of the hulls, simply fell over. The boat began to cartwheel, ultimately trapping Simpson underneath and drowning him.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 12:06 PM

I wonder if there's any video of the actual pitch pole. From the article, Andrew was the tactician, which I guess would mean he would be at the back of the boat, probably wearing some type of tether or harness. If the boat went deep bows down, he'd be wayyy up in the air, either tossed from up high with the boat landing on him, or tied to the wrong side of the boat as it went upside down.

And as mentioned, he may have been unconscious when he went into the water. I guess we'll hear from the survivors as to what happened to Andrew, eventually.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 01:50 PM

horrible that this would have happened, but I guess with all this new stuff (technologies, materials, design) a catastrophic breakdown was bound to happen at some point.

Heck, even a "regular" capsize would put one hull almost 4 stories in the air. A fall from that (even on water) would likely cause serious injury.

Let's add about 40 knots of boatspeed to that equation and I shudder to think what "could" happen.

I recall something about "Drum of England" having a keel fall off and causing some injuries, and I'm sure I could bring up all kinds of fatalities due to boat breakdowns (mono and multi) if I searched, but it's still sad to read of tragedies like this..

What would really add insult to injury is if no recommendations are made to improve safety based on their investigation
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/10/13 03:13 PM

After the Oracle capsize all the teams worked together to address and improve a multi-level safety and recovery protocol. You would guess it would address helmets, portable compressed air, chase boats with doctors, etc.
But, I have yet to find a picture or video of the Artemis guys wearing spare air. Many pictures and video of the team in April where there is no spare air visible here, , here, here and here.

Very obvious that Oracle is wearing them. Does anybody know for sure if Artemis was wearing spare air or any type of portable air system yesterday?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/13 06:21 PM

hum . . .
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/13 06:30 PM

"I hope like hell that whoever survives this thing and wins it changes the boat class to anything safer than these God-forsaken death traps."

So the unidentified sailor is willing to risk his life to be a boat whore, and then whine about it.All about the money. Maybe Darwin should cash the check on this douche. Yep, it's dangerous ,and YOU CHOSE to do it, nobody forced you. No wonder you want to be anonymous. I "hope like hell" that person isn't anybody I ever had any respect for.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/12/13 06:46 PM

I am pretty disappointed but not surprised by the reaction to all of this. I guess it's impossible to consider thy the crew on these boats has a choice, most of them I have seen on videos seemed pretty thrilled to be on the 72s. All athletes take a risk of some kind, you are the only one responsible for deciding when to call it quits.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/13 01:37 PM

Is this general opinion of the AC72 in similar fashion to the opinion of Open 70s when they all got destroyed, or all the canting keel boats which keep breaking?

Are we supposed to hate all cutting edge innovation because it's not "bomb proof"?
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/13 03:58 PM

What AC designs have lasted beyond a single attempt at the Cup?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/13 09:17 PM

More good stuff to read.

" . . . In the week previous people were bidding in excess of $20,000 for a ride in an AC72 . . ."

"This correspondent sailed at speeds of 43 knots on Emirates Team NZ's AC72 in 25kts of breeze, for around three hours"


" . . . only option was to take shelter behind an island as wait for the wind to abate, or take a risky sail ride downwind– which they did . . . "

See the video here.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/13/13 09:18 PM

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’


Sounds like that may not be accurate.
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/news/4528
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’


Sounds like that may not be accurate.
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/news/4528


Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’


Sounds like that may not be accurate.
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/news/4528


Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.


My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’


Sounds like that may not be accurate.
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/news/4528


Looks like Sail World, who published the above link, has pulled that article and replace with this statement.


My guess is that is EXACTLY what happened but they're trying to get things sorted/damage control before the actual story gets out. It'll be interesting to see what the concluded cause was.

Yep, and SA just added a blurb about it on their homepage.

Meanwhile, other international media outlets not mentioned here are continuing to report the original quote as I type this.

I imagine we will hear some official statements tomorrow after Tuesday's planned events.

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 11:48 AM

It's a liability spiral now.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...dge---It-folded-like-a-taco-shell/109405

‘The next thing he heard a cracking noise and the boat went on its side. Before it capsized it snapped in half, Nathan described it as folding like a taco shell.’




Sounds like that may not be accurate.
http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/news/4528


I watched the TV interview with N.O. Dad. He was repeating what his son told him and it's exactly that.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 12:33 PM

If you look through this page you will see a picture of the boat with 2x4's lashed to the front beam to support it while lifting.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=129683&page=68

This boat had problems and they knew it.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 05:35 PM

Presser 2pm PST. http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by catman

If the countdown timer is correct, it will start at 4PM EST, 1PM PST, but the press release did say 2PM PST. Might want to check in just in case.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/14/13 06:16 PM

It is saying 2:45 from now...which is 5pm EST / 2pm PST.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 01:27 AM

And....?

What did they have to say about it in the press conference?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 01:33 AM

I missed it but according to a couple of news reports I skimmed through...in a nut shell:

the race will continue as scheduled
They will be performing a detailed and expedited review of the incident, conditions, and boat designs.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 04:15 AM

Well, there is this:

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...that-this-summers-events-remain-on-track

They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.

What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.

The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.

I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 10:18 AM

Basically all that is keeping these boats from collapsing is a few wires pulling the whole thing together.
What would happen on a beachcat when the dolphin-stiker breaks? Probably something very similar? (frontbeam collapse).
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 11:59 AM

I've seen it happen on a Hobie 21. Dolphin striker fail at the center connection. Front cross bar folded. Ripped the rear cross bar out of the hull. Mast went over. Damaged hull filled with water. Even with a power boat is was a minor nightmare getting the boat(pieces) back to the beach.
See any similarities?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Well, there is this:

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...that-this-summers-events-remain-on-track

They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.

What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.

The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.

I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.

Mike


Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Well, there is this:

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...that-this-summers-events-remain-on-track

They provide links to the bios of the review committee members, as well as the terms of reference that the committee will work under.

What I can't find (and find rather disturbing, bordering on disgusting) is any sort of reaction from Uncle Larry.

The naysayers are having a field day. We need leadership at a time like this, and the only voice I want to hear right now is Larry Ellison.

I do appreciate that the teams are either staying quiet, or posting condolences out of respect for Bart, his family, friends and team. God bless them all during this horrific time.

Mike


Mike, I don't feel the same way - what would you have him say? The naysayers are only going to jump on any tiny slice of something that can be misinterpreted and blast him for it....or blast him for using it as an "opportunity" in some way if he does come out in a public fashion. I think a somewhat silent reflection is OK.



Agreed,

With half of the crowd convinced that this is all his fault, I don't think there was anything he could have said.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 12:45 PM

Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.

I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 12:47 PM

Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing.
It might actually be inappropriate if he did.
Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.

I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mike


Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??

None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.

This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?

They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by brucat
Are you kidding me? A high-profile sailor, beloved by anyone who met him, died. I don't blame Larry for the tragedy, but he is the leader. How can there not be at least a statement of condolences? From him, not just all of the people working for him.

I hope it's out there, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mike


Larry Ellison is NOT the Leader of Team Artimis. It was their boat, their failure, where is their team leader to make a statement??

None of the other AC72 boats have "Failed" like this, and they have all been out sailing in more wind, many times.

This was not a Pitchpole, this was a build/design failure. Where is the design/build team's statement?

They are pretty quiet, and hiding from the Lawyers no doubt.


Actually, their team did have a somber statement on their website almost immediately. Their owner has never really been in the forefront of the public image of the team.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 02:48 PM

The pioneers always take the arrows.

The only thing LE and RC are guilty of is trying to take sailing to the next level. I thank them.

Some are clamoring for all the evidence to be released. Keep in mind there's a active police investigation ongoing.

I doubt very much you'll see or hear anything until that's complete.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by catman
The pioneers always take the arrows.

The only thing LE and RC are guilty of is trying to take sailing to the next level. I thank them.

Some are clamoring for all the evidence to be released. Keep in mind there's a active police investigation ongoing.

I doubt very much you'll see or hear anything until that's complete.


I suspect that, although it appears unrelated at this point, we may see a recommendation lowering of the maximum wind range come out of the committee's findings. Just a gut feel.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 03:41 PM

Perhaps they will.

However boats can always fail in one way or another causing death regardless of wind speed. Imagine one boat foiling t-boning a boat not foil borne.

Having a guy trapped underwater alive and not having the ability to find and free him in a time frame to prevent drowning or further peril is something they have to address.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 03:50 PM

didn't someone post a vid of 17 going downwind in 28 knots TWS? Granted, they weren't running a w/l course, but the boat didn't get destroyed...

And I do agree that if LE isn't in charge of the whole AC deal, he probably isn't required to make any public comment on it.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Technically Larry is no party to this anyway, its the GGYC that is host to the other syndicates and not Oracle Racing.
It might actually be inappropriate if he did.
Public condolences where sent by Oracle but who knows what happens privately.


+1
He's the defender.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 06:00 PM

I respectfully, wholeheartedly, disagree.

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 06:31 PM

So...are you blaming Larry Ellison for the failure of the Artimis boat?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 08:31 PM

Fun facts about the 72's.
Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . .
Grinding Stations
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 08:34 PM

A short video. Kind of an America's Cup 101 for the noobies.

Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/15/13 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
So...are you blaming Larry Ellison for the failure of the Artimis boat?


"I'll take Reading and Comprehension for $1000, Alex." I wouldn't double down if I were you, I've already addressed that in a prior post.

Hint: NO

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's.
Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . .
Grinding Stations


with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by mummp
Fun facts about the 72's.
Anybody's guess what blackberries was before translated to English . . .
Grinding Stations


with that new grinder layout (and a single person per station), you'd wonder if they'd get more horsepower and aerodynamics if they were foot-driven (like a recumbent bike)?


Did you see the foot buttons for switching gears on the NZ and LR boats. Cool. My understanding is the grinding stations do nothing more than pump up/maintain the hydraulic reserve.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 03:57 PM

That would make sense.

I think they need some bicycle mounted pumps!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I respectfully, wholeheartedly, disagree.

Mike


Here's a statement from the man in charge - The CEO of the event Stephen Barclay.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...clay-on-sailboat-design-and-death-at-sea
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
That would make sense.

I think they need some bicycle mounted pumps!


yes, especially if those grinding stations don't have to reverse the direction of rotation to switch gears (I think the first few generations did switch direction to change gears like a standard winch) - which would make the bicycle style inefficient (I don't think I can pedal backwards nearly as effectively)

But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!

Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!

Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...


I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


But if they're just using them to drive a hydraulic pump, use the legs man!

Of course, the drawback is that they might not have the strength to jump up and run across the trampoline quite as quickly as they do with the standing grinder stations...


I'm thinking the cycles need to be mounted on rails, just before each tack the grinders are released to slide down to the low side, pedaling all the way!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/16/13 11:23 PM

Pedal powered sailing tools are nothing new. Here's a photo of an on-deck blender.
[Linked Image]


The latest human powered airplanes (and blenders) are using a rowing machine style of human power, giving up on the bicycle style. Something about using only the big muscle groups.
[Linked Image]
If they got really strong at that technique a grinder/rower wouldn't ever run across the tramp, they'd simply take the whole width in single power jump, like a frog. Just don't overshoot.

I'll get my coat.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 12:26 PM

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...mends-teams-suspend-ac-catamaran-sailing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 12:34 PM

“Luna Rossa will not participate in the slaughtering game”
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 12:58 PM

It sounds like a reasonable argument to me.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 01:18 PM

One accident due to a boat insufficiently built makes it a slaughter?
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 02:43 PM

I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 04:59 PM



Recommends suspending sailing until the middle of the week! Ouch...that's not good for the event.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 05:03 PM

I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.


It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 05:52 PM

I'll believe that when I see it. AC is all about elitism, imo.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 07:16 PM



Good riddance.

Give me the keys to the boat on the way out, I'll take good care of her.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.


Russell Coutts tried - and he was told to get stuffed.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 08:02 PM

Is it me, or has the AC always been a boat race between uber-wealthy narcissists? That's what makes it so entertaining

Would you rather watch "Lifestyles of the lower middle class & nominally known" on television? I think not.

Having Robin Leech ride in my half-destroyed car with his camera crew would be a little un-nerving, but he could help keep that window from leaking while he's there...

Suspending racing for a short while until people can determine if there is something inherently wrong with ALL the boats sounds reasonable. But if it turns out one team or boat was cutting the margin too thin, then the rest of the teams shouldn't be penalized

I've recovered a few bodies of offshore power boat racers in my earlier days (dive rescue), but I don't recall the industry cancelling the entire fleet/division/calendar because of one (or a few) accidents.

I'm sure that some of the accidents may have actually been the result of design deficiencies, too...

I recall diving on one boat (maybe a 60 foot tri) that stuffed hard in a wave while rounding a mark and killed the throttle hand (traumatic asphyxia from what we figured - our response was literally 30 seconds from when the boat crashed to our getting hands on him, but CPR attempts were unsuccessful). The boat literally disintegrated below us (our safety team was following in a small helicopter at about 100' asl). The driver denied being hurt, but we got him packaged (backboard/CS collar) on the rescue boat and later found out he had a C-6 fracture.

While tragic for all involved, the general racing community believed it was one of the inherent perils of the "game" and soldiered on. I would hope to see the same out of the AC

Even back in the early AC events, the danger of injury or worse was always present. A parted sheet or blown block could easily maime or kill a sailor. Collisions between boats have and will break bones or worse.

Booms swinging can knock sailors overboard unconscious, and until recently I don't recall any of them wearing PFDs while training or competing.

Learn all we can from this incident, apply those lessons to protect life and property, and let's develop the sport and its associated technologies in a safe and effective manner.

Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the AC 45 was some of the best racing we will see. They could have just as easily used those boats for the Cup races and had a lot more teams participate.


It would be hard for any of them to admit that now, but I'm with you. Open up the AC45 rule to allow some development in foils, etc and have a huge event.


I think that was tried but NZ killed the idea, I think it was proposed after the OR crash.

It might have made a much better event, I imagine it would have been much more affordable with more teams jumping in. Probably more teams doing the series as well.

On the other hand it would have have been quite the same as the big badass 72s either. It's not the AC without the wealthiest teams competing with the biggest and baddest boats.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 08:33 PM

Then they can readily afford safety crews and equipment to safeguard the lives of the sailors. In hindsight I'd say safety standards were amateurish.
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/17/13 11:54 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22563038
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
I'm guessing that's a translation problem. At any rate I got the impression he was referring to possible damage during qualifying, that wind on the bay would be quite high at that time and much reduced later in the year when the Cup is actually run. I was glad to read he was calling for divers, air bags and the like.


Patrizio Bertelli: No. Look, this thing about airbags is a stupidity.

Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 02:04 AM

Well I'll be dipped.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 10:52 AM

The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.

Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a high tech development race.

Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.

30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.

I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.

I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
The AC was not about money and bleeding edge tech when it was being done on 12 Meter yachts. It was also about as fun to watch, as watching paint dry.

Then the Aussies came up with that new keel design and it started evolving into a a high tech development race.

Then they changed the boats to AC boats, to go faster, and then Ernesto changed them again, to open class multihulls. That's when it became about who's got the most money.

30 years ago, in the 12M days, the New York YC had a "Defender Series" just to decide who would drive which 12 M to defend the cup, remember when Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it? Then NYYC hated "The mouth of the south" (Ted) but he was the fastest driver, so they had to let him drive.

I like to see the fast cats racing, but with so few teams able to put up a credible boat, I think it will come down to Oracle vs. Emirates Team NZ. The AC 45 series was much more interesting, but with that many fast teams, LE could lose the cup if it were held on those. I think that's why he wanted to push it out to where very few could afford to compete.

I just wish they would bring back the nationality rules.


Actually watching the after race interviews with Ted Turner and Tom Blackaller were awesome.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 11:54 AM

Yeah, Ted was a hoot, but the actual racing, at 7kts or less in light air, was pretty boring. Once one boat got ahead, it was pretty much game over. Not that the last one, with the big cat vs. big tri was any different in that regard, and even with two foiling AC72's it might end up being just a drag race, ie. first boat across the start line won't be caught, unless it breaks, which looks entirely possible at this point!
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 12:27 PM

Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?

And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Shortly after Turner won the AC he became active on the TheMightyHobie18 for a short time. Anyone know what happened?

And what kind of air bags were being considered for the 72s? I agree that automotive style bags aren't appropriate but I was thinking something like they use in salvage work, attach it to the sunken hull to keep it afloat. I can see that that might have an application to rescue a trapped sailor.


They were talking about mast head air bags...which is silly because they break apart shortly after capsizing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/18/13 07:21 PM

Really . . .
Safety press conference first . . .




then this??
[Linked Image]

after the recommendation to do this!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/19/13 11:52 AM

more Bertelli flatulence
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/19/13 03:16 PM

"The Artemis team has yet to indicate its clear intention to continue. The boat that broke up cannot be sailed and its repair may be hampered if reports are true that the second boat, the one it intended to campaign in, was damaged in transit from Sweden and will require repairs."


Really? You have to wonder about the leadership of this group.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 01:25 AM

If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business


they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by JeffS
If I understand correctly beam failure caused Artemis's destruction, if so at a minimum they would need to rejig their beams on the second boat. I think the boat is supposed to be designed by the nation it's representing but they could give the kiwi's a call and see what their layup was as they seem to quietly go about their business


they had some initial damage to the boat when they first launched the platform. I didn't get much detail but it seems to have had something to do with a mistake made while towing or rigging the boat somehow. The boat had to go back into the shed for repairs and was out of commission for some time. I believe this damage was in the area that ultimately failed...so it wasn't necessarily a design flaw.


I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

I believe they hoisted by the beam without any pre-load down force , where the mast would have been. As it was designed for sailing with wing up and massive downforce loads, the opposite caused a problem.


Sort of like flying the spin with no mainsheet tension?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 09:34 PM

If flying 72 foot catamarans are a reality, can flying motorcycles be far behind?

This guy already has put a 9 cylinder radial airplane engine on his bike!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hirsRnytTkU

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
If flying 72 foot catamarans are becoming are now a reality, can flying motorcycles be far behind?

This guy already has put a 9 cylinder radial airplane engine on his bike!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hirsRnytTkU



I think his prop is a little undersized.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/20/13 11:58 PM

I think you're right! But, if you don't have enough money for a custom motorcycle with an airplane engine, you can always build an...

Air Bike!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOyjyU36qBU

After a few beers, I decided to take a Cub up for a joy ride...not a good idea! I had no idea it was being filmed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfrPuZG3Kuk



Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
If flying 72 foot catamarans are becoming are now a reality, can flying motorcycles be far behind?

This guy already has put a 9 cylinder radial airplane engine on his bike!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hirsRnytTkU



I think his prop is a little undersized.

Especially since those things are air-cooled by the slipstream. I sense overheating in his future.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 01:14 PM

Hmmm... maybe - maybe not. Duty cycle would be a lot lower on the bike.

What I'd be afraid of is the belt under the left knee.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 01:35 PM

Ours at school would overheat idling on the ground if you were not careful. That was also turning a prop pushing a tremendous amount of air over it. Those are also prone to hydro locking from oil draining into the lower cylinders, I don't see anyway to turn it over by hand.

What would really be bad butt is a rotary radial, pretty flipping dangerous for that application.

http://youtu.be/-UBAukXPD-0
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 07:06 PM

The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride.
Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.

I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The centrifugal forces would make that extremely hairy to actually ride.
Even the BMW flat engines were weird to ride and there is nowhere near the amount of weight being slung around like there would be on that.

I'll parrot the overheating issue, aircraft engines need airspeed more than just prop wash for cooling.



I'm not sure about that - it's just the crank/cam that is spinning - the pistons are still just going up and down in the cylinder sleeves.

[Linked Image]

But...here's probably a better idea from that perspective (the cooling issue gets worse). You probably also want to put some tape or velcro around your left pant leg. cry
[Linked Image]


....man, are we off topic.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 08:42 PM

I understand the concept. But there's still going to be way more mass there than a flat four beemer, and those cylinders aren't going anywhere either.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 09:03 PM

We've encountered thread drift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VU-ULRps4Y&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/21/13 10:19 PM

Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...

Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.

Mike
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Encountered? No, no, no. Well past encountered...

Back on topic... I had an outstanding, long weekend at Madcatter. But, I don't care what the docs say, or what titles people have. If you think for one half of one second that Larry isn't in charge, I can't help you. Let's just say, they all know who signs their paychecks, or at least keeps funds in the account.

Mike


Mike, We're just a couple out of thousands of a-holes with an opinion. It really doesn't matter what you or I think. I don't have anything invested in it other than a t-shirt and the time I spend viewing. Enjoy commenting here once and a while but certainly not going to argue about it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 02:59 PM

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Quote
US Sailing and America’s Cup Launch New ‘Start Sailing’ Website



PORTSMOUTH, R.I. (May 6, 2013) – US Sailing, the national governing body of the sport, has joined forces with the pinnacle event in sailing - the iconic America’s Cup - to introduce, inform and educate a new generation of sailors.

The new website at www.startsailing.org offers visitors an exciting and easy-to-follow introductory view of sailing, including information on the various types of sailboats, the basics of sailing, tips on how to get started and find access to boats and lessons, as well as other ways to get involved.


On a side note, US Sailing updated the multihull detail on www.startsailing.org (presumably from my email). They removed the negative stuff, added a little, and now it doesn't make much sense (cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach?)...whatever
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 06:09 PM

IDK Jake this sounds fairly reasonable, still a tiny bit negative on the turning (I'd just delete that section): http://www.startsailing.org/index.php/multihull/

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 06:28 PM

cruising multihulls are easy to launch from the beach...

I bet MOST of the world will understand that because they have seen the glossy bare boat advertisments of a cruising mulit tied up to a tree on some island resort beach...

Of course it is beach launched... You walk off the beach and launch your Gunboat.... QED!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 08:32 PM

And I'm still not sure how the text is broken down into "What" and "why" and what follows.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/22/13 09:37 PM

Did everyone see this? The film about AC33, might be a worthwhile watch.

http://www.thewindgodsmovie.com/

You can buy the DVD or watch it on PBS
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 12:57 AM

Here they are.
ACRM Safety Recommendations
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 11:23 AM

May as well post this here, nice looking toy:
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by mummp


All those recommendations amount to "Sail 66% of the races that you were planning on sailing"

Bullocks. I hope my tickets are redfundable in case its blowing 23.5knots.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 03:49 PM

Hopefully, things are getting back to sailing. We should see ETNZ, Oracle, and Luna Rossa AC72 teams on the bay today. Let the games begin.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by mummp


Some interesting stuff in there. Capsize, and it's officially game over...

Like you could recover a 72, and start racing in hopes of the other guy flipping? These aren't Hobie 16s... I'm pretty sure that no one sailing these is thinking about the race while the boat is on its side, and it's not like the other boat is going to be able to offer more help than the RIBs.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/23/13 11:41 PM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 02:33 AM



Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
[Linked Image]



I bet there was some full shorts on that one!
Posted By: JeffS

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 04:25 AM

Do I read correctly in the new rules that they are limited to two soft sails so the wing is dead. If so how long to build a mast and sail and get back on the water?
Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 11:06 AM

Soft sails = jib and gennaker.

Wing is not dead.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 01:53 PM

Anybody notice anything unusual in this picture?? (Hint: B.O.S.)
[Linked Image]
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 05:18 PM

If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
If you're referring to the dude up on the jib luff, that's not unusual for big boats. Of course, having the cajones to do that on a 72 after last week puts him in a whole different league...

Mike

You win!
FYI B.O.S.= Balls of Steel
. . . and he's got 'em.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 06:52 PM

Good Read. Puts it all into perspective.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/24/13 11:47 PM

I loathe and despise the New Zealanders.

****ing can't stand their "we've got everything figured out attitude."

I seriously want to punch Dalton in his ****ing smug butt face.
Posted By: Phile

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/13 06:49 AM

Likewise, I am pretty sure most Kiwis find it difficult to put up with yanks with verbal diarrhea.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/13 04:18 PM

Just watched this on the big screen in 1080p. Check it out. (mark :30 to 1:05) Amazing cinematography, incredible image stabilization, and all from a chase boat. Anybody know why the white helmet? At one point Newton is wearing it, then you see Falcone wearing it. Does the orange colored jersey designate anything?

Bucket list:
1) experience space travel
2) a ride on this beauty

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/13 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I loathe and despise the New Zealanders.

Not reacting to your post Tad, just pointing out that 8 of the Oracle crew members are NZ.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/13 04:35 PM

This race is going to be sick.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/25/13 04:52 PM

Check out that foil.
[Linked Image]

More goodies.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/28/13 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Undecided
I loathe and despise the New Zealanders.

Not reacting to your post Tad, just pointing out that 8 of the Oracle crew members are NZ.


I meant the team - I guess specifically - Dalton.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/13 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided

I meant the team - I guess specifically - Dalton.

Love them or hate them, you can't deny that their program is very impressive for such a small country.

Oracle will have to really get things together to be able to beat them, 2nd boat isn't as smooth as I hoped it would be.

Latest video from the kiwis:
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/13 12:33 PM

Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once
"the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/13 01:23 PM

busy guy
Originally Posted by mummp
Gilberto Nobili has two dream jobs at once
"the team analyzes data culled from more than 300 onboard sensors and sends real-time, job-specific information to each of the 11 crew members via PDAs worn wristwatch-style."
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/29/13 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Undecided

I meant the team - I guess specifically - Dalton.

Love them or hate them, you can't deny that their program is very impressive for such a small country.

Oracle will have to really get things together to be able to beat them, 2nd boat isn't as smooth as I hoped it would be.

Latest video from the kiwis:


I think it's way too early to start the who's ahead and who's behind stuff. First the Kiwis have to win the LV. I wouldn't take the Italians lightly. The latest videos I've seen shows US17 doing just fine. Like AC 33, we will learn much when the horn sounds.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/30/13 10:58 PM










Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 05/30/13 11:00 PM

This Sunday broadcast on 60 Minutes.
America's Cup: Gone overboard?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/01/13 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
This Sunday broadcast on 60 Minutes.
America's Cup: Gone overboard?


Oh christ.

However shall we save ourselves from ourselves if not the media were not there to do it for us?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/02/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
This Sunday broadcast on 60 Minutes.
America's Cup: Gone overboard?

CORRECTION.
This will NOT be broadcast today on 60 minutes but on the series "60 Minutes Sports", this Wednesday, June 5 at 9 p.m. on SHOWTIME.
Showtime schedule here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/04/13 09:41 PM

The Artemis Racing team, with Nathan Outteridge at the helm, has returned to practice on San Francisco Bay.

The team took to the water in its AC45 catamaran early in the afternoon on Tuesday.
"A good day to get back out on San Francisco Bay in our foiling AC45," the team tweeted.

Artemis Racing hadn't sailed in nearly a month, following a May 9th training accident in the first of its two AC72 catamarans

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/04/13 10:42 PM

How wild would it have been to watch the AC45's if they foiled? That would add a whole element of coolness.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 01:09 PM

Sweet! That wing really sweeps the deck. Hard to tell but looks like Oracle rakes the wing mast more than the others.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 01:58 PM

Spithill goes MOB. Here's the video.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 06:29 PM

Never realized the course is only 3 legs. 1 upwind and 2 downwind. Few passing lanes, more of a drag race.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
Never realized the course is only 3 legs. 1 upwind and 2 downwind. Few passing lanes, more of a drag race.

Roger 'Clouds' Badham talks about the course here.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 07:21 PM

Anybody know how to edit a youtube video? Mark 1:24 to 1:27 (3 seconds) would make a great GIF avatar.
Originally Posted by mummp
Spithill goes MOB. Here's the video.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/05/13 10:26 PM

Tonight's teaser.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/06/13 12:34 PM

The grinders are just running pumps for the hydraulics? So are they just watching a gauge waiting for the pressure to drop off, then pump it back up?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/07/13 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The grinders are just running pumps for the hydraulics? So are they just watching a gauge waiting for the pressure to drop off, then pump it back up?

First, read this.

Bundy's quote:
Everyone is grinding, the boat is so physical and because everything is happening so fast as well, everyone just clicks in and grinds it in. Nobody is really just dedicated to one role. All the grinders can switch into everyone's winch so they can switch back and forth. So for a hoist or something they can all just click in and grind. Source and good read!

Artemis' Cayard:
“We have 38 hydraulic cylinders. We want to avoid running hydraulic piping to each of them, because that would be heavy, so we have electrovalves embedded in the wing to actuate the hydraulics. But if you had two wires, positive and negative, running to each electrovalve, your wing would look like a PG&E substation, and that’s heavy too, so we use a CAN-bus [controlled area network] with far fewer wires. Still, it’s incredibly complex.

“We wind up with lot of hydraulics,” Cayard says, “and the America’s Cup rules don’t allow stored power, so two of our eleven guys—we think, two—will be grinding a primary winch all the race long. Not to trim, but to maintain pressure in the hydraulic tank so that any time someone wants to open a hydraulic valve to trim the wing, there will be pressure to make that happen.”


ETNZ's Rod Davis:
"There are eight grinding pedestals, 30 buttons to change linkage to drive different winches (twice as many as the old boats because you have two hulls to sail from), 190kg boards to go up and down, hydraulics that make an big jet aircraft look like a kids toy - and the boat is 46ft wide"

Interesting take on Oracle 17
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/11/13 12:04 PM


Artemis Racing Responds to Grant Dalton
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/13 12:11 AM





You can see alot of camber in the wing in the first of these two videos. (3:35 and 4:15)



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/13 12:13 AM

Boat 1 gets back on the water.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/12/13 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Boat 1 gets back on the water.
[Linked Image]


Your new avatar is almost as entertaining as your old one.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/13/13 01:52 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/13/13 10:37 PM

Sweet
More pictures here

[Linked Image]

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/14/13 01:10 PM

Here's something to enjoy with your cup of joe. Mark the calender, less than 3 weeks until the Louis Vuitton Cup.



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/17/13 01:23 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/17/13 01:24 PM

Banter between Stephen Barclay and New Zealand Herold
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/13 01:16 PM

37 Safety Recommendations=37 New Rules

"The 37 safety recommendations involve Protocol changes, Class Rule changes (the design parameters for the boats), and Racing Rules of Sailing changes (how the races will be conducted). The Regatta Director had received verbal commitment to the safety recommendations, however, when he asked for teams to sign off on each of the changes in writing, a couple of the teams refused."

"Working together to run a safe event, GGYC, ACEA and America’s Cup Race Management (ACRM) submitted the Marine Permit Application with all 37 safety recommendations attached. Assuming the permit is issued, the Competitors will be required to comply with the safety recommendations because they will have become regulations of the event – Art. 16."
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/13 05:04 PM

All of this smells like it's headed to court...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/13 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
All of this smells like it's headed to court...

Mike


It always does. It's a pity.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/13 08:23 PM

My guess is that the sailors will buy into the new program without the smelly litigations. How the corporations react to them may become a worthy note, but if the OA and the sailors vote them in by practice, 'nuf said. :-)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/19/13 09:54 PM

Bert, I somewhat agree with you. These platforms were designed and optimized from scratch for the prescribed wind range. To change that at the 12th hour is the problem, and unfortunate due to the Artemis Simpson tragedy. All the teams are just jockeying for their ideal wind speed. But who really knows if the CG said guys if you want your permit, you need to drop the upper wind limit. Hum.

Here's some new info from Artemis, well, more old and expected anyway, but news just the same from the their camp . . .
These guys really do need some TOW.
Outteridge will helm Artemis Racing boat in Louis Vuitton Cup
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/13 11:24 AM

"What this means is that contrary to what Barclay is telling the teams and the world, they had better agree during the mediation or there is not going to be an AC34.

Apparently, somebody is running around claiming that section 16 of the Protocol, which requires compliance with governmental laws and regulations, gives the IJ the power to alter the Protocol and Rules on the basis of safety. That is a laugher. It does not pass the straight face test."


http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...20Newsletter&utm_term=Read%20on#more
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/13 09:13 PM

Cool boat, seems to foil pretty stable as well.
Would be interesting to see how does in the waves.

Read somewhere that their budget for their 'C' class campaign is €2m.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/13 10:37 PM

Here are a couple of videos I shot this afternoon while spectating from Cressy Field

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cobx2GjXaCk

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zY5NuPNGjw&feature=youtu.be

Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/21/13 11:03 PM

And one more - ETNZ pulling off a foiling gybe

http://youtu.be/mYaZhCcIiBs
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/13 01:39 AM

Nice vids Mike.
If the video is any indication, I really hope Oracle is sandbagging.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/13 02:47 PM

I think both Oracle and ETNZ are holding back. Neither team wants to disclose how fast they really can go. I watched a lot of dial up maneuvers yesterday. Both teams were doing drills where they parked, turned down, and either hooked up or pealed away into a gybe and run. Lots of typical match race per-start drills.

Next week we will see both Oracle a boats on the bay training against each other. Lots of action on the with Oracle 1 & 2, ETNZ, Luna Rossi, and the Artemis AC45 all on the same body of water.

Too bad I'm writing this on my flight home...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/13 07:54 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
And one more - ETNZ pulling off a foiling gybe

http://youtu.be/mYaZhCcIiBs


More video of a beautifully executed foiling gybe.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/22/13 11:11 PM

Soap Opera AC style
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/23/13 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
And one more - ETNZ pulling off a foiling gybe

http://youtu.be/mYaZhCcIiBs


More video of a beautifully executed foiling gybe.


Funny, its the exact same gybe just from a slightly different angle from than the one Mike shot.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/23/13 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Funny, its the exact same gybe just from a slightly different angle from than the one Mike shot.

Indeed it is. There are a couple more foiling gybes in the 20 minute video that the same author posted a couple weeks ago. Rule 47.3 will apply during the gybes and they look like they are well within the time limit. ETNZ has improved from 17 seconds to 11 seconds regarding the boards. Oracle looks like they're still working to perfect the foiling gybe. Could be a game changer if the racing is tight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdPZWgN0Qc
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/23/13 05:16 PM

More on the Safety Mediation.
http://www.americascup.com/en/news/...ogress-but-ends-without-final-resolution

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...issues-unresolved-and-undisclosed/111131
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/24/13 04:03 PM

Barclay and Gladwell exchange barbs.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/24/13 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by mummp


Battling with the press, particularly at an individual level, is probably not in the best interest of the America's Cup organizers. They don't control the outflow of information...they're better off releasing generic non-pointing press releases making clarifications and staying out of the mud. Gladwell usually has his stuff together too and going toe to toe with him probably isn't going to accomplish much. Strange behavior.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/25/13 03:20 PM

Update
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/26/13 11:31 PM

It's all about rudder elevators.
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...racle-sails-with-rudder-elevators/111255

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Gladw...e-being-used-in-the-Americas-Cup?/111207

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Ameri...-seems-destined-for-Jury-or-Court/111211

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/26/13 11:32 PM

Seeing double

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/27/13 01:21 AM



Well, now that's starting to smell fishy.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/27/13 02:22 AM

Great pictures of two boat training. Can't wait to see the videos.
Two Boat Training
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/27/13 06:13 AM

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/27/13 01:29 PM

awsomenesss! (except for the lame drum loop in the background)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/27/13 03:17 PM



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 12:52 PM



Well Done.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 01:24 PM

The only way I can tell boat 1 from boat 2 is on boat 1, the center "pod" (underneath the net) is longer. Boat 2 has a more raked pod trailing edge.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
The only way I can tell boat 1 from boat 2 is on boat 1, the center "pod" (underneath the net) is longer. Boat 2 has a more raked pod trailing edge.

Two spars on the spin pole vs. one spar on the other.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 02:59 PM

Emirates Team New Zealand confirms its intention to file a protest with the America’s Cup Jury
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 04:16 PM

Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).

Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.

Mike
Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Well, at least they'll have closure... and going to court is not an option (until you lose, I guess).

Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.

Mike

It's not that simple - the Oracle boats have lower aerodynamic profiles than ETNZ, which has more volume up front to counteract pitching.

Allowing rudder elevators would give a significant advantage to Oracle.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 04:54 PM

He said the yacht “pitch-poled” . . . . Peyron said that, contrary to some reports, the boat did not break before it capsized.
NY Times Article
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
He said the yacht “pitch-poled” . . . . Peyron said that, contrary to some reports, the boat did not break before it capsized.
NY Times Article


good to know - thanks for posting that.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
The only way I can tell boat 1 from boat 2 is on boat 1, the center "pod" (underneath the net) is longer. Boat 2 has a more raked pod trailing edge.

Boat 1 has two pelican strikers and its boards are further forward.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 05:50 PM

Rudder elevators, wings, tips, whatever your cultural area calls them are becoming "the new performance stimulator" across the board. From A Cats to AC 72s there is evidence and growing faith that lifting foils add stabilization.

The rudder elevators, do, in fact, reward good driving and sailhandling! This makes it arguable as a safety feature in the light of two other AC teams supporting Emirates since have made hull modifications which they claim make the boat safer.

Now the sailing jury will decide which is the modern path to safety - high performance control (Oracle) or the 20th century approach by the whiners (Others sans elevators).

Could this be a ploy for "more time to train?" The move certainly adds drama for the audience. Let us hope that safety through modern design and athletic performance prevails over the traditional 'displacement (adding weight) approach' for safety. The Jury is out... postpone racing for higher speeds and thrills in lighter air??? But, Oracle may have stepped outside the lifelines for the sake of modernism a titch too late...
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.

Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.

I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
Simple answer (not likely to happen): If this is all about safety, have Oracle share all of their design and testing data related to the rudders with all of the teams.

Simpler answer: Add an electronic interlock to the rudder elevator control. The interlock would indicate its status to the boat's communication pod at all times. Oracle would engage the interlock before racing, thereby satisfying the class rule that the elevator cannot be adjusted. If the indicator ever showed that the interlock had been disengaged during a race, Oracle would forfeit.

I think there's merit to ETNZ and Luna Rosa's argument. Changing the class rule to allow elevator adjustment while racing would be a "back to the drawing board" proposition. The challengers have no time left to design, build, and test such modifications.


I agree with that. Added to the situation is that Oracle has been using them for several months as training wheels so they have additional time learning to use them and possibly refining them.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 07:55 PM

That's the key to all this. The rules clearly state how they can be changed, unanimous vote by all competitors. Why would ETNZ let Oracle modify the rules this late in the game? It's a ploy by Oracle, it's disgusting, and really mars the whole AC. Oh wait it's the AC and they'd rather be in court than on the water.

Call me when the full flying AC45's become the standard and they have 20 teams on the water. Till then I'll be watching the C-class and going sailing.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 08:58 PM

In context may I add this related to the Texel Race from Steve Green (BAMA)...
Texel.NDL (G.Ruesink, Nico Boon et al) and SCHRS.EU (Sunnuncks, Newhirst) w/SCHRS.US (Schneider) confirmed no 2013 rating adjustments for T-Foil Rudders (see Nacra F-20 Carbon S-Foils w/L and T-Rudder SkyDrive.LINK). Maybe next year.

Team Oracle has gained some knowledge of exacting the angle of attack for the theory by practicing with the adjustable elevators. Now, in beach cat terms...

My guess is the NACA on the A Cat foils was 4 - 6%. The angle of rake/attack was not mentioned in the discussion. Innovation and safety go hand in hand.

Allowing the daggerboard rudder in production trimaran racing was hinged by the safety element. Watch out for the Farrier 22 - If you see it, you'll likely want to sail it!
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/28/13 09:15 PM

Forget all of the jury drama, let's get Hobie to put them on the 16!!!

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 03:01 AM

Permit Issued
and
Regatta Notice
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 09:39 AM

Kiwis, always trying to bend the rules.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Kiwis, always trying to bend the rules.

But it isn't the Kiwis (unless you mean the ones employed by Team Oracle) who are bending the rules this time. The regatta director (Iain Murray) is altering the class rules at the behest of the cup defender (Golden Gate Yacht Club) - using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to shoehorn the changes in after the legitimate rule change process failed.

Allowing adjustable rudder elevators will not improve safety for the Louis Vuitton Cup - as the challenging teams do not have them. Allowing them for the America's Cup but not permitting adjustment while racing will not improve safety. The whole safety argument revolves around trimming the elevators during a bear-away (to keep the bows up). Rudder elevator adjustment is really a performance enhancement (between races to trim for wind conditions and while racing to initiate foiling).

To me, it looks like the defender (GGYC/Oracle) is attempting to stack the deck in it's favor. ETNZ has shown up with a more buoyant, more stable, and more seaworthy design, so Oracle is slipping in an 11th hour game change.

I hope the Jury rules in ETNZ's favor. I've been rooting for the home team so far, but I'd rather see them lose than win this way.

Sadly,
Eric
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 01:07 PM

I could see them as being a safety measure to keep the boats from pitch poling with the different wind speeds. If they can't change them while racing what is the big deal. Could they just have a different rudder for different wind speeds and change between races. I think it was smart for Oracle to test with adjustable winglets so they could find the best balance for conditions. The other teams may have and had the same opportunity to test with adjustable winglets. Two boats have pitch poled and flipped so far and one sailor has died if changing the winglet angle before the race helps I would be fore it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 03:15 PM

Spithill and Kostecki on the rudder winglet debate. Recorded after two boat testing.
Spithill Kostecki interview

Grant Dalton talks about Oracle and other things. Recorded June 1.
Dalton Interview
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 03:19 PM

Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 03:26 PM

I agree that Oracle was smart to test with adjustable rudder elevators. Those rudders are not, however, class-legal to race with. Once Oracle picks the best compromise attack angle, they have to stick with it (make fixed elevators). Doing an end-around on the class rules via the Coast Guard permit does not make racing safer for anybody except (possibly) Oracle, and it gives Oracle a performance advantage.

ETNZ made a stability/speed tradeoff when they designed their hulls with greater bow buoyancy. They sacrificed some upwind performance to prevent pitchpoling on the turndown. Oracle opted for a finer hull profile with better theoretical upwind speed at the expense of stability. Had adjustable rudder elevators been legal from the outset, ETNZ may have made a different design choice. Giving Oracle an exemption from the class rules under the guise of safety is unfair to the challengers - especially since the change comes less than two weeks before the LV Cup begins.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 05:56 PM

IMHO it's just a big wind-up by Oracle and ultimately they won't care what the jury decides.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/29/13 11:20 PM

Oracle would be smart to let all the energy be drained with this nonsense, then win it with no elevators.

Of course, should they lose...

Mike
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 06/30/13 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
IMHO it's just a big wind-up by Oracle and ultimately they won't care what the jury decides.


+1, The pic of LE,RC,JS,Tug Boat Turner looking at the rudder is a joke. They are just stirring the pot. I can't believe anyone thinks that OR doesn't have all the bases covered. Anything can happen but they won't lose because the boat isn't up to the task...... I hope:)
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/13 02:08 PM

it does appear to contain the hallmarks of a classic "head-fake" to disrupt the competition's focus...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/13 03:53 PM

Dean Barker weighs in and makes some good points regarding rudder elevators, "safety" rules and class rules here.

Tad, close your eyes . . .

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/13 04:11 PM

Jim Farmer - Director to the Board of the America's Cup Race Management (ACRM) weighs in.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/01/13 05:15 PM

Yuck...

If there's one constant in the Cup's history, especially over the past 30 years; it's change. Sure would be nice if the people involved would embrace that.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 01:49 PM

Excellent read regarding the CG Permit and Regatta Director Iain Murray by legal analyst Cory E. Friedman here.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 04:30 PM

Oracle is weak and clearly scared to have to pull this kind of douchebagery. Box it up and send it to New Zealand.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Excellent read regarding the CG Permit and Regatta Director Iain Murray by legal analyst Cory E. Friedman here.


I've always enjoyed Freeman's perspective on Cup related details. If his suggestion that Oracle has yet demonstrated the ability to foil without adjustable rudder tabs, this is a pretty transparent attempt to cheat and skew the event in their favor. It stinks. I'll be interested to see this play out but if it turns out to be as rotten as it smells right now, I agree with Dave...start packing up the cup, we don't deserve it.

He also brings out Peyron's comments in that article linked before. After reading that again, I think it's is at least not clear what happened in that accident regarding pitchpole vs. boat breaking up. Peyron seems to say that they started to pitchpole and then the boat broke...was the pitchpole recoverable at the time?
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 05:17 PM

There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.


I haven't read it - but I understood that the rule previously prohibited adjustable tabs on the rudders. All foils had to be fixed below the water and non adjustable. You could adjust rake of the foil to modify the lift (perhaps this is what had to be fixed on the rudder at a set time prior to racing) but you couldn't have an articulated widget below the surface.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 06:59 PM

Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire daggerboard in the well)?

-Rob Vaden

Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 07:20 PM

If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.

The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.

Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.

Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.


That is the way I understand the rule and don't get what the big deal is. The winglets can not be adjusted while racing only before the warning signal to adjust for the wind strength since the wind builds during the day. The only advantage to Oracle is they have been training with adjustable winglets to find out the best angle for conditions which the other teams could have been doing, but seem to have just chosen to have a one angle for all conditions. I guess Oracle could set there winglets for light conditions and have an advantage if the winds stayed light , but could be at a disadvantage if the winds picked up. The teams could have put different rudders on each day before and just guess which would be best for conditions for that day.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.

The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.

Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.

Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.


I think the initial intent was to disallow foiling...or make it so difficult that it wouldn't be practical. The problem entered when someone figured out how to do it within the rules.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 08:23 PM

I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.


I know ... the thought of that is chilling.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire dagger board in the well)?

-Rob Vaden



The rules forbid the any movement of the rudder post.

The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same. One of the rule changes allow the T to extend outside the max beam of the boat. This is thought benefit OR because this will allow OR to increase the size of the foil to make the boat more stable when foiling. NZ says this would be more dangerous because if someone fell off like Spithill did they could be hit by the foil. I believe Race Management back tracked on this rule. The word is OR has not sailed with T foils that extend past max beam. Another item is RM wants design and load testing data of rudder T foils on asymmetrical equipped boats only.




Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.


Which takes the argument back to "outside the max beam" and away from adjustable foils. The 12th hour safety rule calling for a change to symmetrical rudder foils is utterly absurd and does absolutely nothing to enhance safety.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 09:01 PM

LR boss Max Sirena explains...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 09:08 PM

I think some people are losing track of what is important here.

If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.

I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 09:12 PM

In other news, I read that Artemis II might launch this week.
Will be interesting to see what they have come up with.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
...
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...

I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.

Sadly,
Eric
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/02/13 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.

If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.

I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.


I'm not sure about that...I don't know that they haven't caught the multihull bug (I hope so anyway).
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 12:08 AM

********

Luna Rossa takes tough line against Race Director

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 12:43 AM

Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by bacho
Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?


That's what it said.

Not surprising, actually. On a tour I took at the Oracle base last year, the guide was discussing how, when the boats get going fast enough, they're always sailing upwind due to the effect of boatspeed on the apparent wind angle. In many ways, foiling is at least as much of a game changer as an additional hull or two...

Mike
Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 01:51 AM

Another reason not to carry a gennaker is that it's virtually impossible to pull off a foiling jibe with one.

The gennaker has to be partially furled, jibed, then unfurled. The extra speed/time gained when you're up on the foils is more than offset by the time spent off the foils in the jibe.

At least one team (ETNZ) has a self-tacking jib - which may partially explain why they were the first to achieve a fully-foiling jibe.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 12:48 PM

There you have it!
Posted By: pgp

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 01:03 PM

Another perspective.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100861027
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 01:25 PM

Thank you Philip! That Slingsby video should deflate any screaming about an intent to cheat.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 01:36 PM

huh. So it seems that the reasoning behind the "symmetrical rudder is safer" is to avoid failures of the 90 degree rudder to foil joint. I can see how this would cause a major problem if this broken during a big bear away (who knows, it may have let go during Oracle's big capsize or Alingi's) and I think it adds a little merit to the point for using them.

However, I feel like I should point out that all of them are using asymmetrical dagger boards that should be seeing considerably more loading than the rudders...soo....uhhhh.errrr
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by pgp


What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of? Do they have a boat? Or did some Durham-based African Americans who haven't set foot on a boat decide they needed a piece of the $100 million???

That video from Oracle certainly clears a few things up for me and makes it a little less like cheating. I had assumed the elevator attached to the rudder was movable ala Moth. Adjusting the entire rudder rake+elevator still sounds fairly illegal but their setup really seems optimized for quick testing and not necessarily speed gains while racing.

I really hope whoever wins sees the light and brings foiling AC45's to the action.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.


I agree, and from what little experience I have hitting things with my face (thanks Karl), getting sliced up by a winglet at 40 knots does not sound pleasant in the least bit.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by catman


The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.


So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by pgp


What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?

I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 02:34 PM

Coutts comments on safety
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by pgp


What's this all-black sailing team they are speaking of?

I posted on it awhile back. The NC syndicate applied for the AC as a challenger, and was denied for questionable reasons. So the denied challenger has sued in the NY courts.


Google: African Diaspora Maritime
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman


The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.


So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?


I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
There you have it!


Awesome. Can't wait to see what's next. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by catman


The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same.


So, could OR just move their rudder posts (i.e, the entire rudder) a little bit inboard to allow for more symmetrical winglets and not exceed max beam? Or would that screw up the steering so bad it's not worth it?


I wonder if there is a rudder/hull centerline rule...otherwise, that sure is a thought.

Why bother? He said their most recent symmetrical rudder wing is compliant.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 08:18 PM

Now this just impresses the hell out of me. That's some serious laminate engineering.
[Linked Image]

Attached picture ORRudderWingTest.jpg
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Now this just impresses the hell out of me. That's some serious laminate engineering.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that testing the load in the wrong direction?
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 08:57 PM

I guess that depends if the boat is foiling or diving for the bottom.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 09:21 PM

[Linked Image]

Looks to me like they are only testing the forklift arms.

-Rob V.

Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 10:18 PM

I'm sure very, very few people ever imagined a winged keel (AUS in Newport), let alone foiling a 72-foot boat of any kind, let alone a cat in the America's Cup. Makes you wonder what kind of innovations are in store over the next 30 years...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/03/13 10:57 PM

Iain Murray weighs in
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/13 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mbounds
Now this just impresses the hell out of me. That's some serious laminate engineering.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that testing the load in the wrong direction?


No. The rudders pull the stern down to give the daggerboards an increased angle of attack so the boards will generate more lift. They also pull down in the most extreme case when the bows start getting pushed down.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/13 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by mummp


Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/13 10:55 AM

That is interesting, in my view each one of these teams would do whatever they could to gain an advantage. In this case OR happens to get the bad press.

In my motorsports past, many would say that rules were created to be bent. They would also say that if you were not bending the rules as much as possible, you weren't winning.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/04/13 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp


Well, now I don't know who to believe. However, one would think that if they had unanimous consent, given all of the America's cup history, someone would have thought to have the teams sign something.


Here's the only thing I think anyone can believe at this point:

The jury will have the last word. Until someone takes it to court.

The more things change...

Even if there is no intentional foul play on any side (which is actually conceivable), the differences of opinion, fueled by the egos and wealth at this level, put the playground dispute on a different plane.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 11:37 AM

They all agreed when they signed the protocol that going to court means automatic DSQ for that challenger.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
They all agreed when they signed the protocol that going to court means automatic DSQ for that challenger.


True - but that clause doesn't always hold up in the US legal system.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 06:36 PM

Today's time trials cancelled due to high winds.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 06:58 PM

I don't wanna race, I wanna protest!

More here.

and here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 07:02 PM

Really?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 07:26 PM

Coutts answers directly with the media
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/05/13 10:12 PM

This gets better by the minute.
[i][b]"spoilt rich kids dressed in Prada gear."[/b][/i]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/13 11:55 AM

Damn Jake, I almost smacked my screen to kill that bug (thAT ended up being your new avatar)
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
They all agreed when they signed the protocol that going to court means automatic DSQ for that challenger.


True - but that clause doesn't always hold up in the US legal system.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/13 01:01 PM

The following two paragraphs are quoted from an "America's Cup on SFGate" article by Tom FitzGerald:

Murray, who is employed by all the teams, acting in a partnership, insisted he isn’t going to resign. “I don’t like to leave things unfinished,”

If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.

Clearly, we're not being told the whole story. Something is driving Iain Murray to act irrationally. One moment, he insists he's acting fairly to benefit all the competitors. Another he threatens to shut the whole event down if he doesn't get his way.

Apparently, Murray is utterly convinced that larger rudder elevators with adjustable rake are necessary safety features required for an AC72 to sail. Yet, he has also said (regarding Luna Rossa's threat not to race) "It's been indicated to them that the boats are in measurement trim, are ready to race and can race". How is it possible for the boats to be both measured-in and also unsafe?

Max Sirena has taken a not-unreasonable position, saying he wants to know what the rules will be before he starts racing. After all, how can you compete if you don't know whether or not the boats are legal?

Murray has responded with personal attacks on the teams, disavowal of responsibility, and more rule change proposals, as shown in the following four quotes:

"Now, however," he said, New Zealand and Luna Rossa “want to cherry-pick the parts that don’t suit them out of it.” (also many diatribes against Grant Dalton that I haven't quoted)

"The jury are part of the International Sailing Federation, not the America's Cup," Murray said. "They make their own rules and they make their own schedule. (This is clearly untrue - The America's Cup is not run under the Racing Rules of Sailing and is not under ISAF's control in any way. The AC Jury is employed by the Americas Cup organizer, just like Murray).

"It's been suggested that I direct a lot of people," Murray said today. "But I can be clear, that I don't direct anyone." (If the Regatta Director doesn't direct anyone, what does he do?)

Murray said that under the current rules a team must complete the course to get their point, but hinted that their had been discussions with the teams about changing that rule. (How can one fix a disagreement about changing rules by changing rules?)

I think I understand how larger elevators and deeper rudders might help a boat recover from a foiling nosedive. To that extent I agree that they are an important factor in boat architecture. That tradeoff, however, is the responsibility of the individual design teams, not the Regatta Director. Iain Murray has taken a giant leap of hubris by insisting that he must step in to correct the competitors' designs.

And finally, something is fishy with Team Oracle's behavior. They might not be directly influencing Murray's actions, but Coutts and Spithill sure are lining right up behind Murray - including making misleading statements about safety vs. performance and issuing personal attacks on the other competitors.

Surely, something is going on behind the scenes.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/13 05:25 PM

more editorial noise

"Here we have some of the wealthiest people on Earth, yet for all of their fortunes and alleged smarts, they can't get their act together any better than us nonwealthy schlubs trying to organize an RV family vacation to Pismo Beach."
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/13 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
...
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...

I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.

Sadly,
Eric


I'm bringing 8 people who have never sailed a day in the lives to the AC finals. Friends and family who I've been peppering with youtube videos of insane machines that fly over the water on curtains of fine mist.

My current crewmember is a friend who got hooked on the sport when he ran across the ACWS in Venice. Thats a direct benefit of the Americas Cup to the sport of sailing.

Take it back to slow, boring, unexciting monohulls and you lose the people that are getting into the sport because of the spectacle.

Furthermore, I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/06/13 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I don't really see how Oracle is "Cheating" here. They've said that they are ready to race no matter what the jury decides.

Ok, I'll backpedal here. "Cheating" was too harsh a word. I don't accuse Oracle of cheating, but I used the term to oppose the notion that Oracle would be right to win "by hook or by crook". The ends don't justify the means.

Of all the video interviews I've seen, I'm most impressed with Tom Slingsby's. He didn't pedal any PR story; he didn't badmouth any other teams - he just said (in paraphrase) 'here is our current elevator, here is a big one for the proposed rule change, and here is an asymmetric one. We'll use whatever elevators the jury decides'. Tom showed real class in that video.

John Kostecki, when asked about the adjustable rudder rake, explained how the system worked, but sidestepped a reply to the question of whether it was a performance or safety control. At least he had the grace not to pitch the corporate line.

I have the utmost admiration for Jimmy Spithill's talent, but I'm disappointed with his assertion that adjusting rudder rake between races is "definitely needed for safety". Clearly, it isn't. Oracle could set the rake on shore for the highest expected wind speed that day and be every bit as safe. The boat just wouldn't be quite as fast early on when the winds are lighter. Therefore, it's a performance control. Jimmy is selling the PR story.

Again, I have great respect for Russell Coutts' ability, but am saddened by his descent into name-calling. It doesn't help his team nor the sport to make personal attacks on the other teams.

Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray. Certainly they have supported his claims and his actions - despite how outlandish his statements have become. That makes me distrust Oracle's motives, and possibly suspect their involvement. Certainly, Oracle is the principle beneficiary of Murray's subversion of the rules.

I'm going to watch the racing - most definitely - despite these antics.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 12:13 AM

Luna Rossa confirms they will not compete on Sunday
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Luna Rossa confirms they will not compete on Sunday


Where are the keys to the shed... I'll take the ****ing boat out for them if they don't want to race.

Assh0les.

Quote
Spithill and Coutts appear to be aligning Team Oracle up squarely behind Iain Murray.


How did Iain come to be regatta director? Was he appointed by GGYC - or was he agreed upon by all the participants? I believe its the latter.

Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray? Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.

Oracle wants the event to happen. ETWankerZ and Spoiled Rotten Toddlers don't apparently.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 06:40 AM

I think ETNZ are on the same page as Oracle now, they will race no matter what the jury decides.
For them to boycott a race could also be bad publicity for their sponsors.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 11:49 AM

If they are going to race how do you watch it? Can't find anything on the TV schedule.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Where are the keys to the shed...

Luna Rossa simply wants to know what the rules will be before they start racing. I don't think that's unreasonable. Consider this: if ETNZ and LR sail with their existing rudders and the Jury sides with Murray, will both teams be disqualified for equipment violations?

Quote
How did Iain come to be regatta director?

According to what Iain Murray says, all teams agreed to his appointment as Regatta Director and he is working for the benefit of every team. According to what Iain Murray does, he is certainly not acting fairly for all. When words and action disagree, believe action.

Quote
Why does everyone seem to think that there's some kind of conspiracy between Oracle and Murray?

I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.

Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.

Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.

So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.

Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.

Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.

So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?


If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.

You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 02:15 PM

Quote
I haven't seen any direct evidence of a premeditated conspiracy. Murray has, however, unilaterally mandated a rule change that favors Oracle. It was done in the name of "safety", but is really a performance tweak. People suspect collusion because Oracle publicly sides 100% with Murray against the other teams. At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them


You're forgetting Artemis here. They're in favor of the new rules as well. That seems to imply that the Challenger of Record and the defender agree on the rules changes, and the other "and also" teams seem to have big problems with it for whatever reason.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 03:10 PM

Paul Cayard weighs in

"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.

Now, five weeks later, Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa (LR) have lodged protests...

The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing.

So I ask, who is trying to force whom out of the 34th America’s Cup?

The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 04:57 PM

Everybody should find an hour of their time and listen to this entire media conference on July 3rd with Iain Murray. No questions were off limits, the questions were direct and tough, and he didn't avoid anything. It's pretty darn transparent and the listener can draw his/her own conclusion . . .
Media Conference with Iain Murray

You should really listen to the whole thing to do it justice, but if you want a snippet, try 35:40 to 46:00.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Isotope42
At the very least, Oracle has condoned a subversion of the rules simply because the change benefits them.

Quote
Murray is saying "we need to change the class rule to get clearance from the coast guard." Great. If that doesn't happen, then the event doesn't happen because the CG won't sign off of the event.

Murray has said if the Jury does not accept every single one of his rule changes, then instead of filing an amended permit request with the differences, he will go back to the Coast Guard and ask them to revoke the permit. He's not just saying he'll take his bat and ball and go home - Murray is threating to close the ballpark.

So, Luna Rossa says they want to race but need to know the rules before they begin. Murray says if he doesn't get his way, he'll shut down the America's Cup Regatta entirely. Which one is acting childishly?


If the RC/ Race director decides to change something that benefits you, why would you argue. Anyone would support it, or at the least, not comment.

You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.

Like Todd pointed out, Murray never states that he will ask to revoke the permit, only that the permit was not agreed upon, in which he is required to notify the CG immediately.

There is a local consensus in SF that the CG would likely be able to live with a 35 rule permit.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dlennard
If they are going to race how do you watch it? Can't find anything on the TV schedule.

Maybe nothing to broadcast, might want to check into the YouTube channel at 12 noon SF local time (PST). The schedule here reports live race commentary from 12:00 to 1:15

For everyone else, the broadcast schedule is here. Choose your country.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 05:56 PM

update previous post.

Louis Vuitton Cup Day 1 live on http://www.youtube.com/americascup at 12:00pm PT
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:15 PM

Those ding dongs won't allow me to sling the broadcast to my TV with the YouTube app. I guess I need to get a computer hooked up to my big screen next time.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:17 PM

36 knots in what looks like 12 -15. Geese
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:24 PM

30 knots across the start line! Can't wait to see two boats racing. Spectacular, worth the wait.

Something tells me that Andy Green is going to be most annoying. He needs to learn to inhale.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:30 PM

Pretty riveting stuff, one boat on the course and all.

Interesting at 12:30 how much they changed the angle on the dagger before dropping it for a tack. Pretty major adjustment compared to what I have seen on some beach cats
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:39 PM

There isn't much trim difference between up and downwind.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:42 PM

Look how deep their angles are down wind. Fantastic video.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:44 PM

Umpires are in a freakin cigarette boat to keep up. Hilarious.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 07:46 PM

Secrets out. Less than 15 knots peak windspeed and ETNZ touched 38 knots.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 08:01 PM

Not in HD, kinda of a bummer.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 08:03 PM

Just over 40 knots there at the end, crazy.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Not in HD, kinda of a bummer.

I'm getting 720P
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Not in HD, kinda of a bummer.

I'm getting 720P


I've got an 82" tv, 720p is just okay with that much screen.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 08:28 PM

"He grunted through a 10-second burst that put out nearly 1,200 watts."

http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/americas-cup/americas-cup-34-access-in-alameda
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 10:03 PM

Top speed today: 42.8 knots.
Full replay below.
Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .

Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/07/13 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
You have twisted what Murray stated as to what would happen if the rules weren't agreed to in the end( which they originally had been). He said he would inform the Coast Guard that the "safety rules" that had originally been agreed to now are being argued, which would negate the permit as it had been issued.Result being the CG would rescind the permit, that's just obeying the law. A considerable difference to asking them to revoke it. If the terms don't meet the permit a new one would have to be issued (or not) under the new terms.

Here is the quote of what Mr. Murray said:
Quote
If the jury agrees with New Zealand and Luna Rossa, Murray said he’ll go back to the Coast Guard, which issued a racing permit this week, and say he doesn’t think the racing would be safe. In that case, the Coast Guard would almost certainly withdraw its permit. “Without a permit to race on San Francisco Bay, there will be no regatta,” Murray said.


I don't know the difference between "rescinding" and "revoking" the permit, but Murray clearly states that the permit would be withdrawn. He did not give any indication whatsoever that he would try to amend the permit, or apply for a new permit with a different safety plan. I don't see any way to read the statement "there will be no regatta" other than as an "all or nothing" ultimatum. I'm not twisting what Murray said, just taking him at his word.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.

Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.

Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."

I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?

The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.

Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.

Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."

I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?

The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.


There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 12:27 PM

I was under the impression that the old smaller rudders had smaller posts and wouldn't be compatible in the mounting for the larger rudders.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.

Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.

Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition."

I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?

The fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.


There was an article linked previously that stated some surface area prescription for the rudder foils - Cayard stated that they had the older rule, smaller, asymmetrical (about the rudder centerline) rudder foils and had just received newer larger symmetrical foils that they had ordered for the new rule. I believe his statement was saying that they wouldn't have time to order new foils if the rule changed again (presumably a hybrid mix between the old and new rule).


Try this.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 02:52 PM

I think a lot of things are being taken out of context. There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone. Hopefully the jury gets us past this quickly so the focus can return to racing.

I'd like to see the finals be between ETNZ and Oracle USA. I think those two have the most experience on these boats and will provide the best racing.

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 02:57 PM

When is the IJ slated to rule? They must know that they're basically holding up everything.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 03:03 PM

Philip,

This may have been said before.

Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.

CHEERS!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Philip,

This may have been said before.

Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.

CHEERS!


X2
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
There probably won't be any one answer that pleases everyone.

Mike,

I agree. At this point, I don't see any likely outcome that is fair to all. I sympathize with Artemis over the quandary they're in. They went down two design paths (small and large symmetric elevators), not anticipating the possibility of a third form of the rules. A 35 of 37 point rule change could leave them SOL. ETNZ and LR also went down two design paths (small elevators, and large asymmetric elevators, neither with rake adjustment). A full 37 point rule change could leave them disadvantaged. Only Oracle developed small, large symmetric and large asymmetric elevators, with adjustable rudder rake. They will come out even or advantaged in any case. The fairest solution would be to return to the original elevators, but Iain Murray has already stated very clearly that he won't permit that to happen. I wish the jury well in finding an equitable solution within the rules and look forward to its decision.

Originally Posted by catman
Thanks for taking the time to gather all the AC info and post it here. You've made it easy for me to keep up with all of it. Your effort is much appreciated.

Phillip,
I've been thinking the same thing. Thanks very much for keeping us all posted.

Sincerely,
Eric
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 04:09 PM

Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?

From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.

No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 04:41 PM

Thanks for the gratitude guys.

Here it is again. Please go to this link and LISTEN to 37:30 35:30 through 46:00, then come back and comment. It's from the horse's mouth. How many times can the media ask the same question?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?

From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.

No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.

Mike


Mike, your position assumes that Murray has an ulterior motive with the rule changes. While I too once held that position based on the stream of information coming out of the two teams that lodged protests, I think it's important to note that he was put in place by all of the competitors and it's unlikely that he's being influenced by one team.

I'm starting to come of mind that Murray just honestly believes that these changes are safer and, frankly, it's hard to argue with that actually. The offset rudder lifting foil (asymmetrical is a misleading term) does lead to enormous torque loads on the vertical rudder foil and hinge system and could lead to breakage....for all we know one or both of the capsizes to date had this issue lead to the capsize. I can see how allowing the rudder foil to be centered on the rudder and extend beyond the beam of the boat can be safer.

With regards to the issue of adjusting the rudder foil, there was also a lot of bad information circulating about this early. Previous to these changes, the rudder/foil rake had to be set prior to racing for that day. We all know that every one of these boats can adjust the rake of the rudder and it's attached foil - they would be insane to try and foil without this capability or, at the very least, it would be absolutely required for testing to determine the optimum setting. We also know that the wind can change dramatically in San Fran throughout the day and one rake setting may be terribly inadequate for the day. Teams would have the choice of setting it aggressively and being slow in the light air or setting it more flat and being in danger of a pitchpole should the wind build later. The rule allows them to change it prior to starting each race and better tune it for the conditions. I also believe this is a safer scenario than allowing one setting for the day.

I've come to mind that these changes are pretty reasonable. Oracle seems to have had a jump on this because they had a lot of different rudder and foil combinations. If I were to guess, I bet their pitchpole lead to (or was caused by) rudder failure that lead them to try several different things. New Zealand is probably on par with them in this regard. I don't think any team could change and try different rudder foils without being observed since it flies above the water regularly.

The two teams with less budget / development are likely behind when it comes to foil options - Artemis admitted it with Cayard's tour/interview yesterday and ~maybe~ Luna Rossa admitted as much in the vacuum of their competing yesterday. They're slated to race Artemis through this week and since Artemis isn't racing, we probably won't see LR until Saturday when they're scheduled to race NZ again. By not showing up and racing yesterday, they had an additional week to work out the new rudders.

Also remember that the original rule was intended to make foiling unpractical. Some of these limitations have become liabilities now that everyone is foiling - it makes sense to tweak the rule to make things safer and I think the only real argument you could make against it is that the timing leaves something to be desired.

This is such a game of controlling the media that I think the race management fell behind the two protesting challengers in getting their story out. Those two protesting competitors set the tone and we have already seen several glaring inaccuracies out of those reports that you really have to question the whole thing.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
When is the IJ slated to rule? They must know that they're basically holding up everything.


“We’d like to have a decision on Wednesday”


International Jury to hear Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa applications

About the Jury
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mummp
"The first person to commend the Safety Recommendations was Grant Dalton, CEO of ETNZ. He publicly congratulated Murray for his work and said “you won’t get any push back from ETNZ on this.

Paul Cayard has simply repeated (almost verbatim) what Iain Murray said in his earlier attack on ETNZ.

Quote
The inclusion of these rules excludes no one. Yet, excluding these rules, and keeping the other 35, will exclude Artemis Racing. The fact is that if ETNZ and LR get what they want, Artemis Racing will be excluded from competition." I'd like to see some justification of that statement. Is Paul Cayard stating that his team is incapable of building a boat within the class rules? How exactly does not allowing rudder elevators that extend outside the hulls and not allowing rudder rake changes on the water exclude Team Artemis from the America's Cup?

Th

e fact of the matter is that the America's Cup Class Rules represent a contract between all the competitors. There is a proper procedure for changing the class rules, and (just like amending a contract) it requires unanimous consent. When Iain Murray made his safety recommendations, they included changes to the class rules, but he could not get unanimous agreement on all points from the teams. Instead of proceeding with the 35 points that were acceptable to everyone, Murray tried to force his way on the dissenting teams by including all 37 of his proposals in the safety plan attached to the USCG permit application. ALL the subsequent consternation is a direct result of that action. Don't blame ETNZ and Luna Rossa for standing up for their rights under the rules (i.e. protesting) - blame the man who tried to subvert them.


If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR. You can see why he's pissed. Then there is the one other bit that is interesting, during his talk he says LR had spun out a couple times. That is news to me at least. So much for the so called perfect foiling design. I think it's time to give the man what he wants. Anyone that thinks US-17 needs IM to step in and win them the regatta is drinking some bad koolaid.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Anyone that thinks US-17 needs IM to step in and win them the regatta is drinking some bad koolaid.


You obviously haven't been reading any of the news. ETNZ has this thing in the bag and is already making space for the auld mug in Auckland.

Any change now is clearly an attempt to commandeer the cup from their divine-right of victory.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Then there is the one other bit that is interesting, during his talk he says LR had spun out a couple times.

Iain Murray . . ."Luna Rossa spun out twice, doing 36 knots, ended up head to wind. How's that not a safety issue?"(45:48)

I would guess that the shore laundry crew had some extra cleaning of soiled pants to tend with.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 09:36 PM

Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG

Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...

Mike
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.

If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.

Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Eric, I think maybe you're getting wrapped up in some of the buzz. Pretty uncharacteristic of you, so maybe you know something we don't?

Yes, I've been overly vociferous on this topic. Thanks for thinking it's uncharacteristic. I don't have any special information, I just think that the statements and actions of the Regatta Director and the Teams don't add up. That, and it has touched a couple of my hot-buttons.

Quote
From what I've read, Murray has to report the change. The CG doesn't have to revoke the permit, but if they do, the regatta is in jeopardy. I think everything that I've seen lines up with this, meaning that there is a possibility for the regatta permit to remain intact, regardless of the final rudder rule.

If the Jury decides to change Murray's proposals, then all he needs to do is give the Coast Guard an updated safety plan and the CG will then amend the permit. It's my understanding that it's pretty much a rubber-stamp deal. Murray, however, shows no intent to do so. Instead, he said that he would tell the CG that the racing is unsafe and expect the CG to withdraw the permit.

Quote
No one, including Murray or the CG, wins if the regatta is flushed.

Indeed. That is one reason I think Murray is acting either disingenuously or irrationally. If Murray ever did act to get the permit rescinded, I expect he would be replaced immediately.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 11:30 PM

Thanks for not taking that comment the wrong way, Eric.

I gave up trying to guess the motives of others long, long ago. Murray is pretty wrapped around the axle about the "all or nothingness" of the 37 rules as a package deal. It could be as simple as thinking he is right, has the authority, and genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing for, and with the perceived support of, all of the teams. I tend to take people at their word, at least until I have good reason not to.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Jake, how did you misread my post so badly? I said nothing of motive, quite the contrary. It's been reported that he must report the change, then it's up to the CG

Of course, there has been a rash of sailing fatalities in CA recently...

Mike


hmmmm..I have no idea - my apologies.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 11:38 PM

No worries. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible. All five sides (Oracle, Artemis, ETNZ, LR and the OA/RC) have good points, and bad.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/08/13 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.

If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.

Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.


The recommendations originated from ETNZ and LR back on May 17-22 (over six weeks before the first race of the LV). Amazingly, 6 weeks later, when time is precious, ETNZ (June 28) and LR (July 2) protest their very own recommendations.

Let's see the teams with compliant rudders that measure in, regardless of ruling:
ETNZ (check)
LR (check)
OR (check)

It' AC politics as usual.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:22 AM

Luna Rossa showing their foiling gybe.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:24 AM

What a load of Bertelli crap . . . or is it?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:26 AM

What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?

[Linked Image]

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:29 AM

Anybody know what the rules are regarding traffic on the race course? Seems like a high risk liability to have commercial traffic on the course during racing.

Originally Posted by mummp
Top speed today: 42.8 knots.
Full replay below.
Barker has to jibe early to avoid a ferry (53:19)? Really? Yes he was close to the boundary but still . . .

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:53 AM



If it's the Asian market they're after, they picked the wrong sport for marketing.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 02:08 AM

Paul Cayard weighs in:
We are here to race.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 04:40 AM

Regarding the ferry...

I can speak from my experience at the ACWS in Newport (from aboard a weather mark boat). I would assume the rules are the same, or very similar, as those events were very much test beds for the RC.

There is an outer perimeter, marked by stake boats. These are large (typically monohull) sailing yachts, anchored and flying large red flags. These are set an hour or two prior to race time, based on the expected wind direction and strength, and the best guess for how the course will be set that day.

All normal spectator boats (and non-AC traffic) is required to remain outside of this outer perimeter. It is enforced by marshal boats (small power boats), and for large traffic, the Coast Guard.

VIP boats operate inside of this outer perimeter, and are essentially only limited by the actual course boundaries, which change from race to race (and lap to lap). They don't typically get too close unless they are a fast and maneuverable photo boat.

It's not foolproof. I don't know if anyone saw this on TV, but there were some large motor yachts anchored near Hammersmith Farm (south of Fort Adams) at the ACWS in Newport. This was well inside the restricted zone, and no one really knows why they weren't moved before the racing began (yes, a large portion of the bay was officially closed to unofficial traffic). Anyway, at one point, John had us move so far south, that the course enveloped these anchored boats. The marshals tried to get them to move, but they didn't react fast enough, and at least one of them became a large speed bump as the fleet tacked around them getting to the weather gate.

Having said all of that, I would say that judging by the number of people on that "ferry" in San Fran, it was actually being used as a VIP spectator boat.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?

[Linked Image]



The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?

[Linked Image]



The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).


But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 12:49 PM

I haven't seen the diagram. Could be a mid-course gate, or leftovers from the start box. I'll try to look for this later.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?

[Linked Image]



The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).


But why are they set "mid course", as in the middle of the course? These are not windward or leeward marks.


I'm pretty sure this is the course and why you are seeing marks mid-leg

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I haven't seen the diagram. Could be a mid-course gate, or leftovers from the start box. I'll try to look for this later.

Mike


go to 31:34 in the video. Definitely a mid course gate. Can you tell me if it is just for upwind?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by brucat
I haven't seen the diagram. Could be a mid-course gate, or leftovers from the start box. I'll try to look for this later.

Mike


go to 31:34 in the video. Definitely a mid course gate. Can you tell me if it is just for upwind?


startline - see above.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 01:30 PM

Yep. I see it. Clearly visible at 47:30. Thx.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by catman
If you listen to the IM presser he explains what happened quite clearly. He did not force the teams to accept the rules. They had meetings in which all teams agreed to the rule changes (or did not complain about them at the time) including the rudders. He felt he had the approval of all the teams prior to announcing them. Then he was ambushed for whatever reason by ETNZ and LR.

If that's the case, then why didn't the teams sign-off on the changes (as required by the class rules) right then and there? Had the proper procedure been followed, there would be no controversy now. Using the Coast Guard permit as a backdoor to amend the class rules makes no sense if all teams agreed to the changes.

Murray keeps repeating that story, but I don't think it holds water.


To why ETNZ,LR changed their minds, They may believe they will have an advantage in not changing the rudder rule. Or they know that with the changes US-17 may be able to set a new sailing speed record. "enter your speculation here" Better yet, why isn't the media banging down the door at ETNZ and LR asking if the claims IM has made are true?

I understand what your saying about the permit. However, honestly IM can't know what the CG will do if he has to go back with those rules removed. He has spent time with the CG and may have more insight to what the CG wants. He is the guy in the jaws of the vise. Currently he has the permit.

I don't believe the CG permit will be pulled. It will be amended with some changes. I think the CG main focus will be keeping the spectators and other boating traffic safe. We now know that a boat has rounded up more than once at over 40 mph. Maybe the spectator fleet may need to be pushed back further. Again, "enter your speculation here"

Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 03:15 PM

Mid course gates have been used to keep the action centered (VOR in-port races have used them). Probably not needed for the AC because of all of the digital wizardry.

Leftovers from the start box was really my first guess, but I couldn't recall whether the start was in the middle of the course, or above the windward mark (it's been mid-course for most of the ACWS). Even if those marks have propulsion for self-positioning, getting them off the course fast enough is probably more of a risk than leaving them in place.

As an aside, I listened to a lot of the Murray press conference, there's a lot there that tells me he's a stand-up guy.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
What are these new mid course marks all about? Anybody know?

[Linked Image]



The manned boats that had the positioning systems on them were deemed to be a bit of a hazard to the AC72 boats and the people on both vessels since they were hard and the speeds involved could be pretty crazy. They came up with these floating marks instead. I think they still have similar position maintaining propulsion systems so they don't require an anchor (not entirely sure about that).


Unless they rigged up something for propulsion ,they are just those fun islands(Big kids water toy/lounge tube) with a teepee on top. Saw a closeup of one and you could see the writing on the side. I thought it was pretty creative and frugal considering the way they shovel money around.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 04:14 PM

Other than a lead-time issue, I'm surprised that they didn't get them with proper logos, or bare (no logos).

Losing the mark boats was definitely necessary. Not sure how widely reported this was, or how many of you remember this, but on one of the practice days in Newport, ETNZ was out of control, in traffic that wasn't well-controlled, on the way back to the harbor, and wiped out on one of the VIP (larger) mark boats. No one was hurt, but there was a good deal of damage to both boats.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 04:28 PM

Round Robin Race 2 starts at 12:00 PT on the YouTube channel.
Artemis has confirmed not competing.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Round Robin Race 2 starts at 12:00 PT on the YouTube channel.
Artemis has confirmed not competing.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup


Is anyone competing? LR?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 05:29 PM

Race 2 is ETNZ vs Artemis
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 05:41 PM

Kinda funny and sad at the same time but the only racing is OR1 vs OR2
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 05:45 PM

Aaa...I see that NZ is going to tool around the course on their own again today. Is LR going to do that on Thursday when they are slated to go up against Artemis? This is going to get boring relatively quickly.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 06:40 PM

Reminds me of that line in Jurassic Park (Jeff Goldblum's character):

"Now, eventually you do plan to have dinosaurs on your dinosaur tour, right?"

The whole thought of one of the challengers winning this and returning to monohulls reminds me of a much darker scene from "Wind."

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Reminds me of that line in Jurassic Park (Jeff Goldblum's character):

"Now, eventually you do plan to have dinosaurs on your dinosaur tour, right?"

The whole thought of one of the challengers winning this and returning to monohulls reminds me of a much darker scene from "Wind."

Mike


I feel bad for the announcers who are trying to explain the lack of any competitors in this competition.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I feel bad for the announcers who are trying to explain the lack of any competitors in this competition.


I was on the edge of my seat on Sunday wondering who was going to win. That one really came down to the wire.

It does make me wonder how conservative they are being sailing the boat. Are they giving it 100%? I kinda doubt it, tough to justify taking any risks when it's all yours to lose.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 08:52 PM

Does this round even matter? I forget how the scoring works, but I get the sense this doesn't really matter, otherwise LR is taking an insane risk.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 10:10 PM

New top speed of 43.26 knots.
Here's the replay.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/09/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Does this round even matter? I forget how the scoring works, but I get the sense this doesn't really matter, otherwise LR is taking an insane risk.

Mike


It would matter if there were enough competitors that they were fighting for position in the semi-finals...but with three it's meaningless beyond the spectacle.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 12:46 AM

That's what I thought...

Obviously, these guys haven't sailed at a Hobie NAs. NEVER win the practice race!!! Of course, no one ever said, translate that into staying in bed...

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 12:58 AM

Stunning shot from Oracle... (hopefully the forum doesn't resize it...)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 12:34 PM

Big Blue taking shape.

http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/photos/72157634567749867
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by catman


Certainly looks sexy. Let us hope that they can ramp up quickly on the new boat and get on the line.

As fun as it is to watch ETNZ parade around the course, I want to see some action damnit.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:28 PM

Couple of Comments:
Andy Green and commentary is much better, and since there is not another boat racing, they are doing a great job to educate what is happening with these new boats, and having team member guests is excellent. A+

Arial camera views are awesome, especially with the close ups. You can see the foot buttons in the ****, and other fine details we never saw before. ETNZ really does have a slick rig.

The foiling gybe. The Kiwi's are looking good. Slowest speed through a foiling gybe was 28 knots, versus 14 knots when loosing the foil. If competitors are similar in upwind speed, looks like the best execution of foiling gybes will win.

The dial up. Imagine closing speeds of 100 mph! This is a completely different animal and is insane. This is extreme sailing at its best. Bring it!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:30 PM



Highlights.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:34 PM

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:37 PM

“Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. Sure, there’s the talent, but there also has to be the will. Give me human will and the intense desire to win and it will trump talent every day of the week.” Larry Ellison
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 01:41 PM

Well . . . that's only if they race.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 02:37 PM

The IJ is supposed to give their ruling today.

One thing about the coverage - WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ON BOARD CAMERAS?!

Those were SOOO cool during the ACWS and we were all led to believe that the 72's would have them as well.

Whats the deal?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 03:13 PM

Newswire: The black panthers will riot if Team Luna Rossa doesn't win it's America's Cup protest.... Oh,wait....skip that... must have gotten my wires crossed.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 03:57 PM

They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 04:38 PM

the race schedule:
(right click on image/select view image/click "+" to enlarge)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 04:52 PM

Why isn't the Alter Cup on that schedule?

Mike
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.


The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel…..
Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski.
Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing.
Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?

Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.


The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel…..
Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski.
Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, I'm guessing.
Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?

Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.


I don't think anyone knows exactly what ENTZ's capability's are when it comes to adjusting the rudder/T-foil. I seem to remember that at one point they were ok with adjusting the T-foil up until the warning signal. With that in mind you would have to assume that they have the ability to change the rudder angle in a fore and aft fashion. Now can they do it on the fly? Don't know.

I think it's proper to view the T-foil on the bottom of the rudders as just that. There are a couple videos posted here that explain Oracle's set up. In the one with RC he shows a T-foil with an adjustable elevator on the back of the T-foil. He said that it could only be adjusted by turning a small screw on the bottom. So I think that is where the term elevator fits into the conversation.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say ....

Remember, that they have to talk a lingo that can be understood to a much broader target group, especially the 4KSB captains.

I don't know, Andy Green isn't so bad. We could have that half baked knucklehead Todd Harris back. NOT!

Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by catman
They're ok. Green did say that NZ was adjusting the ride height by moving the the rudder which is not correct. You'd think they would understand that by now.


The English commentator really had things confused when he said one of the crewman's job was to adjust the rudder post angle during flight to stabilize the vessel…..
Is this right? -pertaining to the rudder wing/hydro-foiling concept: The main foils' AOI has been dialed in so that the boat flies low and level/slightly bow down. The elevators are part of the hydro-foiling system, and perform the function of stabilizers, pulling the transom down while in flight. They are sized, and set with the AOI different than the main foil in such a way that they are of minimum drag to provide the necessary force. During take-off the elevators are apparently lifting like a water ski.
Ride height is not under direct control. The tip of the main foil rising into the air seems to have something to do with that, along with the ability to change the AOI of the main foil. A move which seems to be mostly for take off and maneuvers, not general flight, i'm guesing.
Why the term elevators? is it because they lift up and push down like an elevator?

Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.


The daggerboard is adjusted on the fly to control foiling. Artemis has an article about it a few pages back.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided

One thing about the coverage - WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ON BOARD CAMERAS?!

Those were SOOO cool during the ACWS and we were all led to believe that the 72's would have them as well.

Whats the deal?

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Also, there is some speculation that the on-board cameras would reveal too much and the other teams could get some data.


On-board cameras are definitely required and are included in the class rule. If you want to learn more of the techy stuff google "media module". It is the aero fairing box provided and mounted in center of the rear beam. It is the brains to all the on-board cameras and microphones.

You can learn more about it:
original class rule
Amendment 15
rules and amendments here
Pletty of good techy details here.

What I haven't verified is if the Louis Vuitton is excluded and the cameras and mics are only used for the AC Finals.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 10:01 PM

If you want, all the data files for all races are available for public download
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 10:43 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 11:20 PM

Outteridge laments Cup farce

and they got a shipment of new goodies.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/10/13 11:46 PM

wasn't the jury supposed to rule today?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
wasn't the jury supposed to rule today?


Thats when they "expected" a ruling. No guarantees apparently.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 01:16 AM

International Jury will publish its decision at 11:00 am PT on Thursday.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 01:53 AM

Which is which?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
International Jury will publish its decision at 11:00 am PT on Thursday.

Question is will LR show up and get their point?? I love it, give 'em an hour to sort it out.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 02:32 AM

They've already planned this out, of course...

My guesses:

If they win, they'll race.

If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.

If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
They've already planned this out, of course...

My guesses:

If they win, they'll race.

If they lose, they'll either go home if they were serious and/or have other reasons to quit, or they'll race and grumble forever, maybe looking for another way to protest or sue.

If the decision is delayed, they'll forfeit again until it's resolved. There is no great reason to be racing yet (other than the practice, of course).

Mike


I read a comment this evening that they didn't want to prejudice the jury's ruling by sailing in the event to date. I can see this logic from the perspective of the major sponsor who is also heavily involved in the team (and not focused on his sponsorship investment)... I'm betting they sail either way and that the no-show to date has just been a minor thing to them so they can be sure to not affect the outcome. Several articles today state that they think they have a boat that can beat NZ.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by mummp


"You may hear the struts called by the more colorful but politically incorrect term "dolphin striker."

Does it ever end?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by mummp


"You may hear the struts called by the more colorful but politically incorrect term "dolphin striker."

Does it ever end?


catamarans murder dolphins.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 01:07 PM

Wait till they hear about Pelican Strikers! OMUHGOSH the horror.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 03:03 PM

Each teams theme songs

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 03:29 PM



more here
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 03:36 PM

While we wait on the IJ decision, go to 14:40 in the video, also watch Jimmy.
[Linked Image]

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 03:41 PM

"We want to sail" . . . "There's a 50% chance me might pull out"
Make up your mind will ya . . .

[Linked Image]
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 04:09 PM

at the 1:00 mark, it looks like a pretty decent fybe there from Oracle.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 04:09 PM

Thank you. LR will race.

Originally Posted by mummp
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Thank you. LR will race.

Originally Posted by mummp


Would seem a gigantic waste of money if they decided to pull the plugola.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 04:15 PM

LR is schedule against ARTEMIS, so we should see LR strut their stuff on the course solo.

12:15 PT start, same YouTube channel
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 05:10 PM

The real show. This Saturday we will finally get to see some two boat racing.
LR vs. NZ at 12:15 PT, mark your calender.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:08 PM

IJ decision being read. Stand by . . .
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:16 PM

Jury decision: Regatta Director Iain Murray ordered by jury to withdraw regatta notice 189
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:17 PM

Here it is.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN075.pdf
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:31 PM

so...nutshell...Murray overstepped his bounds with the rule changes regarding the rudders. We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out. I presume LR is going to tool around the course now with bells on.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:51 PM

Good read. The jury ruled in favor of Murray on notice 188 but against him on 189. Interesting on USCG position. Sounds like they don't care what's in the permit as long as safe for the bay, other commercial and recreational boaters, etc.

I did find this interesting:
"Only LR raised any concerns as to the process by which the Safety Review Committee conducted its enquiry following the capsize of the Artemis Racing AC72 and tragic death of Olympic sailor Andrew Simpson on 9th May 2013. However, all Competitors supported the appointments and cooperated fully with the Committee. "
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 06:55 PM

ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???

This is the best thing that could have happened. Regardless of the final decision, the process was thorough, out in the open, and puts a lot of rumor to rest, especially the USGC part.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 07:02 PM

AR would be eliminated by the jury rule decisions. ETNZ proposing dispensation to allow them back in.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 07:04 PM

Racing is live
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 07:18 PM

GGYC is saying now that without those safety measures in place they will face liability concerns and will cancel the race... bugger.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 07:38 PM

Some people just don't know when to dust themselves off and move forward.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Several articles today state that they (LR) think they have a boat that can beat NZ.

Sorry. Ain't happening. Tune in Saturday for the butt whippin'
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:10 PM


"We respect the decision of the America’s Cup Jury," said Grant Simmer, Oracle Team USA General Manager. “We continue to support the Regatta Director and we believe all teams have benefited from his review. We don’t have an issue complying with the Class Rule, and we will be ready to race under the rules affirmed by the Jury.”
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.

As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:17 PM

I thought Luna Rossa was gaudy when it came out, and still do, but those sailing/spaceman suits are downright comical. I hope those guys got a nice bonus to have to dress like that.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
We'll see if Artemis really has a plan B or if they are out.

As I read the ruling, the Jury threw out Regatta Notice 189, which is the document that elevates all 37 Safety Recommendations to Rules. Therefore, the boats will have to go back to their pre-recommendation (i.e. small, non-adjustable) elevators. Team Artemis reportedly has rudders that comply, so they should be able to race.


That's good to hear. I never quite got the jist of them NOT being able to sail.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???

ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
catamarans murder dolphins.


and I murder landscape regularly... I call it "golf"... so what of it?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 09:20 PM

Cup racing can continue with voluntary compliance to Safety Rules
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 09:37 PM

Please watch the embedded video!

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 09:39 PM

Here ya go Tawd

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/11/13 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Here ya go Tawd



Like I said "BIG BONUS".
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 01:31 AM

I'm hopeful that Artemis can find a way to make it work - but I must say I feel better about this ruling in that it should no longer taint any victory.

On another note; I wonder if Luna Rossa's silver metallic life vests are USCG certified? grin
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
ETNZ wanted AR to be given dispensation (the IJ refused). What does that mean in English???

ETNZ was trying to give Artemis an exemption for their "outside the beam" elevators. Hopefully that should squash the allegations that ETNZ was trying to exclude Artemis from the regatta. The jury ruled, however, that it does not have the authority to grant such dispensation.



ETNZ had to know that.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mummp
Here ya go Tawd



Like I said "BIG BONUS".


I keep hearing "Spaceman Spiff!" in my head when I see closeups of these guys. You know they're catching hell.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 10:20 AM

LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 11:55 AM

USCG says they need flotation certified from their home country. Did the OA pile onto that?

Mike
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.

ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).

The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

"or there will be no regatta"
That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. This is really a bunch of media noise. Fact is OR, LR and NZ are in and racing, therefore we have a cup.

USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.

Bottle of your favorite rum bets that all the teams "agree" to change the class rule so that Artemis gets to race.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.

ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).

The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.


Interesting - so what are the opportunities for the race management to protest a boat for building outside the class rule if the competitors agree to not protest against them? (I hope none).
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 03:08 PM

I'm surprised no one is talking about Coutts's response to the rudder design and impact on the water (in one of Philip's video's posted a couple days or so ago) and his take on boat stability vs speed. There's so little info out on how Oracle is running - it's going to be interesting to see this play out.

That said, I've been very impressed with ETNZ thus far. Professional and look to have the boat well sorted. I'm just glad to see we're going to be doing some racing!
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 03:08 PM

Sorry - double.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


I'm not 100% sold on that just yet but admit it is a definite possibility. Regardless, I bet the next cup is also on multihulls (a little smaller and truely less expensive) with a rule designed for foiling.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.


Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 04:38 PM

Dalton seemed reasonably impressed with Oracle's foiling in the light wind yesterday during his comments regarding the rudder ruling.

I'm still undecided. ETNZ seems to be ahead at this point but I'm going to assume Oracle has some time now - 2 boats - and good weather to get sorted.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 04:52 PM

This video adds some good perspective to it all. My thoughts are how do you hide it when your about to gybe or tack? This part will be interesting. Additionally, this is match racing, how will the techniques change when you are covering at these speeds. You fake a gybe and your challenger might ram into your butt. These things don't have brakes.

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 05:11 PM

That video appears to show that Oracle has better ride height control. When they're foiling (both boats) in that video, they are foiling but still very close to the water. I would think this has some aero advantages. I think ETNZ has just been more on the front page about technology and performance so we naturally start to see them as the ones to beat. I'm not sure we will have this figured out until, at earliest, the first race between the defender and the final challenger.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.


Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?


Control and speed from all the vids I've seen all play to ETNZ,hands down, and I was rooting for Oracle, so I don't think I'm BS'ing myself.

Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 05:36 PM

When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point.
Or will we have one more protest?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point.
Or will we have one more protest?


As I understand it, Oracle has compliant rudders and its just a matter of which ones to use.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 06:21 PM

Live broadcast from Oracle's Maker Camp NOW
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 06:54 PM

Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)

Right height control is your friend!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by itbvolks
Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)

Right height control is your friend!


I'll have to check that out. Ride height is important from an aero and foil efficiency perspective. If your ride height is so high that the tip of the foil is coming out of the water, it's AOA (angle of attack) is high and inefficient. I bet we'll see ETNZ foil lower when (if) they get behind.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 07:29 PM

Look close at the AOA changes real time...


Must be keeping Jimmie busy.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 07:46 PM

Comments on Maker Camp:
Picked up some interesting stuff and thought it was well done.
Jibs: used 16 times at $40,000/jib.
Sail loft and sewing machines: Wow
Boat: 90% carbon, 10% aluminum, 1% titanium
Steering wheel: hollow Carbon weighing 350 grams (3/4 lb)
3D printing of electronic components
Google+ guest Sam looked alot like a young Jake smile

If I ever was to dumpster dive I want to do it in Oracle's dumpsters.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:17 PM

The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:23 PM

The jibs have a longer life than on the IACC boats. On the IACC they used to count the number of times the jib had been tacked. I think the life spam was something like 40-50 TACKS.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.


Per the rules - the rudders can move in a single axis to change AOA but must be locked for racing. Least that's how I'm reading it....
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:33 PM

"But it is a major loss for the beleaguered America's Cup Regatta. Again not for the Decision, which is a no-change. The loss comes from the damage done by those attempting to pervert the Rules - reflected in the constant general media droning about the litigious face of the America's Cup once again peering over the parapet, of what should be the pinnacle event in sailing."

by Richard Gladwell

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
The rudders are compliant but the system that allows them to be adjusted is not. Until that system is permenently locked or removed I would think that the boat is not compliant with the rules.


I think you'll find that every team has the ability to adjust their rudder rake in some fashion. They wouldn't be able to do what they do without it.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:46 PM

Is there a replay of the camp video available?

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/12/13 08:47 PM

bacho: try here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t1pnkvAJapM
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. ...USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.

“This means racing can continue if the teams abide by the existing Class Rule and the Safety Rules,” said ACEA chief executive, Stephen Barclay. That implies that if the teams do not abide by the "safety rules", then racing cannot continue.

Regatta Notice 189 has been officially withdrawn (see RN 201) so the safety plan no longer ranks as rules, but the ACEA and the Regatta Director have elected NOT to amend USCG permit. So, either the teams abide by the safety plan "voluntarily", or the event is in violation of its permit terms.

That isn't really a problem, given that the only objections anybody had were to the class rule changes, and those are out. It just irks me that ACEA still seems pretty high-handed. You won't see anybody complain though. The Jury was pretty firm about sportsmanship in it's decision: "the Jury specifically reminds all Parties of their obligation to respect and preserve the favourable reputation of the America's Cup and the sport of sailing, and to refrain from any conduct that may be perceived as being other than in compliance with Protocol Article 60". The bickering, at least, should stop and that's a good thing.

I expect that Artemis will be allowed to compete, but I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle countered ETNZ with a proposal to change the class rule (permitting large, symmetric elevators for all) rather than specifically giving Artemis an exemption.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.


You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 12:53 PM

Magazines:
Here are two magazines that might be of interest. The first link you can save as a PDF. The second magazine would be similar to what you might get if you were at the event. It contains team bios, cup history, and copious ads for local swank. Enjoy.
http://www.sailracingmagazine.com/2013-editions/kr1vcfi4dlybpxsmrenmdolo1j5cmg

http://digital.marinmagazine.com/marinmagazine/raceforthecup/?pg=19&pm=1&u1=friend#pg1
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 12:54 PM

No more single boat live coverage.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 12:55 PM

Saturday racing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 12:55 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 06:57 PM

It's race time.
Live in 3 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 07:31 PM

NZL crushed that start... over a half kilometer ahead now...
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/13/13 08:07 PM

NZL by 5:23. Wow.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 12:29 AM

Shocking... NOT.

Maybe LR was secretly hoping to lose the protest so they could have an excuse to go home without getting spanked on the course...

Mike
Posted By: David Parker

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 02:59 AM

What's with the two huge yachts inside the boundaries on the first upwind leg? WAYinside! Watch at 22 minutes.

NZL. LR. 1
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 02:59 AM

Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by David Parker
What's with the two huge yachts inside the boundaries on the first upwind leg? WAYinside! Watch at 22 minutes.

NZL. LR. 1


Judging by those giant blue/black flags, I'd say they're official. Most likely stake boats, possibly VIP boats. Why they were inside the boundary can be a variety of reasons.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.


You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."


The forum now only lets you quote four deep...

You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

The forum now only lets you quote four deep...

You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.


This x 1000

Until they line up together, we'll never know. As much as people say that ETNZ has it all figured out, they seemed to have some problems maintaining foiling in 18 knots of breeze yesterday. Sure their gybes are foiling but so are Oracles' now.

Fact of the matter is that its anyone's guess who is faster up until the race is run. I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.


You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."


The forum now only lets you quote four deep...

You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.


Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...
Quote
"Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."

Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.


Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.


You should keep using the quote function so you don't try to twist my words. Here they are again for you "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle..."


The forum now only lets you quote four deep...

You indicated that you think ETNZ is faster than Oracle...hence "Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree" in response to John's stated belief that ETNZ will take the whole thing. This indicated that you believe Oracle has shown to be slower than ETNZ. I'm just trying to figure out what you are basing that belief on because I haven't seen anything indicating how fast Oracle is or isn't.


Jake, I thought you'd been watching all the videos, guess not. As far as the quote thing ,you're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure something out.Like this...

Then again,If you're just looking for a pissing match, we should probably discuss politics.


Tad, I'm rooting for oracle, but don't have a good feeling about it. Although they played the last D.O.G. race very close to their chest, I truly hope this is the same case and they breakout a monumental butt whoopin'.


Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s


Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up.
ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake

Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s


Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up.
ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.


Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.

They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake

Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s


Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up.
ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.


Not sure if you were watching the same race I was... but ETNZ was having their fair share of difficulty staying up on foils.

They certainly looked like supermen compared to LR - but they are not without fault.


I believe the commentators ( term used loosely) said the conditions/ windspeed were up and down. They'll all suffer in puffiness, nature of the beast. Highest reported breeze of the day was during LR's finish.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 05:48 PM

"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .

There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."


I held Bart as they tried to save him ... I just wish it had been me who died, not him
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/14/13 07:51 PM

Podcast Episode 17- ETNZ's Ray Davies & Dean Barker, Luna Rossa's Max Sirena & Chris Draper

More of what was in the podcast if you want to read it here.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm very much hoping that all these ETNZ fans who are all "box it up now" are eating crow come September.


Me, too, Tad. While I have my opinion about NZL, don't mistake that for a lack of desire to watch the Cup unfold. It was sailors on the couch at my house for the race, and even my kid thought it was pretty exciting. I want to see it all, but my bet is out there.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 01:13 AM

Oracle USA has some tricks up their sleeve - let us hope that seamanship rules the day.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake

Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s


Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up.
ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.


Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.

The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 02:00 AM

I certainly haven't kept up with this iteration as much as I have in the past - but I'm not sold that Oracle didn't originally intend to foil. The rule was written "to discourage" foiling but I think there was room purposely fitted in for it to happen...though it wouldn't be easy. NZ certainly figured it out and I think it's practically a forgone conclusion that NZ and Oracle will meet in the challenge. Also don't discount the fact that Oracle is still designing/developing and has the advantage of measured data of the challengers to work from (i.e., sensors and data transponders that were written into the rule and are available for download by anyone on the internet!)

Regarding yesterday's race, LR talks about how boat handling cost them that time - but the speed indicators between the two boats tell a different story. There was constantly 1 or 2 knots difference in boats speed up and downwind. LR has some catching up to do but at least they have a "preliminary" race series to get it improved.

It will certainly be interesting to see Artemis in the mix but they've not borrowed technology from Oracle anywhere close to the amount that LR borrowed from TNZ....heck, Artemis' first boat didn't even foil. They won't be much of a measure for Oracle's performance and it's hard to imagine them being much of a factor in the LV cup.

I just hope we get to see some back and forth racing - it's going to be pretty boring to watch after a while if it's a one boat show and we're going to lose the public after the impression of the advanced technology wears off.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake

Geesh, man... all I did was ask you why you think Oracle is slow. I just don't think that subjectively evaluating videos is much of a measurement system. Heck, I thought LR would have had something for NZ with all the training they've had together (looked fast?) but clearly they're not in the same league.

USA 17 looks lighter and like it has less aero drag to me.
http://youtu.be/W8AoLoijHz0?t=3m57s


Bows are definitely smaller for less weight and less aero drag ,but it also appears that the tradeoff is lack of stability. Most of the videos I've seen('cause that's all we've got to go by) shows Oracle's foiling is comparable to a baby giraffe learning how to walk, pretty wobbly and erratic, which as you know changes foil angle and increases drag, decreasing speed. Will the weight gain and reduced aero drag make up for it? I doubt it. It has gotten better with more practice and I hope we're not seeing the best for Oracle and the matches sake.They still have plenty of time, but at this point I'd venture they are still playing catch up.
ETNZ on the other hand has, for the most part, mastered horizontally stable foiling.Maximizing their efficiency. You also need to remember no ones designs (except ETNZ) appeared to take full foiling into account until ETNZ did it.


Not sure what small bows have to do with stable foiling. You must not have seen the video with RC explaining that ETNZ started their foiling program with more stable moving to less stable. Oracle started with a less stable and have moved to a more stable program. Two different ways to get to a similar point. RC also said that stable isn't necessarily the fastest set up. This Regatta should be won by the fastest boat.

The guy from Sail World NZ, John Navas (I think I have his name right) has been filming much of the practice. He has watched the boats more than most and has commented that while ETNZ is fast, at times US-17 was noticeably faster.


Look into the latest iteration of A cats if you doubt me. More stability/buoyancy brings on foiling faster. If you look at side shots of ETNZ and Oracle, Etnz's version of less volume is still WAY more than Oracle's. This pic was first version, I believe, but you get the idea. My A cat was designed by one of Oracle's lead designers, Dirk Kramers, so believe me when I say, I hope they win, I mean it.

Attached picture ac72Comp3.jpg
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
"Percy is back at the Bay and back at work with the Swedish team, Artemis. But he admits that it is, in many ways, the last place he wants to be. . .

There are 140 people working on Artemis and I owe it to them and their families as well, but I'm struggling to muster the competitive spirit I used to have in abundance."


I held Bart as they tried to save him ... I just wish it had been me who died, not him


Wow, that's tough to read...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 01:08 PM

Use Google translate if your browser doesn't do it automatically.
http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.fr/2013/06/scoop-les-ac72-devoiles.html
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 02:00 PM

so, looking at Saturday's 2-boat race, did LR lose more ground on the upwind side of the course than downwind? It seemed that way to me, even though I did note (as Jake pointed out) that there was consistent speed deltas of 1-2 knots.

Looked like LR had more trouble keeping a steady ride-height, and coming back up to speed after tacking uphill. Not much, mind you, but when you're going 20 kts up and 40 kts down a few extra seconds building speed costs you dearly.

I'm wondering how all this race time on water is helping ENTZ perfect their seamanship. Is US-17 limited in their 2-boat testing/training time? Will this eventually hurt them in boathandling skill?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 02:23 PM

Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.


I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Not only was NZ faster but they were sailing several degrees higher upwind, as stated in the interview.


I can only imagine how much the wing design comes into effect here. I bet it's a huge part of the difference. We know Oracle has put a lot into their wing designs so hopefully they're at least on par here.


They also seem to be having success with a smaller jib. I know that everybody is trying a lot of different jib configurations, but you can't argue with the success of the smaller one.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 09:36 PM

"Kiwi sailor Craig Monk believes if Team New Zealand had been able to keep their foiling programme under wraps for even a month longer, the America's Cup would now be as good as theirs."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10898563

"Team NZ boss Grant Dalton told the Herald last month they would have liked to have kept it a secret longer, but "it was like trying to hide an elephant in a phone box - you can't".

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 09:37 PM

Have TNZ let cat(amaran) out of bag?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 09:39 PM

Structural testing is done for ArtemisRacing
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/15/13 11:43 PM

Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.

Interesting stuff indeed.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.

Interesting stuff indeed.

[Linked Image]


Wow! That's some pointing difference.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
Interestingly, the Italian boat sailed 1376 meters (0.74 nautical miles) further than the New Zealand boat over the length of the race, and most of this extra distance came on the upwind legs.

Interesting stuff indeed.

[Linked Image]


Wow! That's some pointing difference.


Look at the difference in the downwind leg distance sailed and times compared to the upwind distance/times. Amazing.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 06:43 PM

Posted By: rehmbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 07:11 PM

That view looking back over your shoulder had to be intimidating. Fun stuff!

A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 07:56 PM

"We're gonna squash him like a bug."

Priceless...

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 08:42 PM

it's all fun and games till you are cutting the kite out of your forestay (don't ask me how i know ...)

edit - that video was amazing!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 08:59 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by rehmbo
A (very smart) cat sailing buddy of mine once recommended to me that I never, ever try kite boarding as once I did I might pack up the boat and never look back.


I started kite boarding last year. I'm never looking for crew and the whole rig fits in the trunk. Steep learning curve though.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 09:56 PM

I always bring my kites with me to every sailing event, nothing better going out there when racing gets cancelled when there is too much wind.

I bought a proper raceboard a few weeks ago and will try to line up against a cat too see how it compares.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
[Linked Image]


I finally placed that image I had in my head. Bonus points for naming this movie:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:47 PM

Last Starfighter?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Last Starfighter?


lead female character's name....
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:54 PM

Hotty Hottington?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/16/13 11:55 PM

Crap - looked it up. Maggie.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Crap - looked it up. Maggie.


hah. I love that movie.
Posted By: Andinista

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
[Linked Image]


I finally placed that image I had in my head. Bonus points for naming this movie:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

How about this one:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 12:01 PM

I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.

I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 01:17 PM

Was there an Oracle cologne too? - ode de Ellison?
was there equal shelf space? If not, i think it is unfair advantage and should be contested

Originally Posted by brucat
I was at the mall last night, and this literally stopped me in my tracks: A large poster advertising Prada Luna Rossa cologne (for men). On the poster was one of their AC boats (I think the 72), and a Marlboro Man looking sailor (or model). No space suit.

I didn't waste my time smelling (or money buying) it, but now I'm wishing I had taken a picture to post here.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 01:20 PM

Posted By: rehmbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
ode de Ellison?


That woulda been some poetry.

What I think you meant was eau d'Ellison - a much more disgusting idea!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/17/13 03:49 PM

oui
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Originally Posted by MN3
ode de Ellison?


That woulda been some poetry.

What I think you meant was eau d'Ellison - a much more disgusting idea!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/13 11:19 AM

“The safety management plan we’ve requested from the teams includes a playbook on how they race their boats, how they go around marks, the systems they have to set and control, the speeds required to maneuver… basically, how they manage their boat around the racecourse,”

regatta director requests ‘playbook’
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/13 11:21 AM

NZ first to break 50 mph

more here
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/13 11:24 AM

sure would have been nice to have that gennaker bowsprit
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/13 11:29 AM

Will it pay off to foil upwind??
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/19/13 11:30 AM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 01:01 AM

"Currently with the Defenders able to conduct in-house racing - Defence Trials or otherwise, on the America's Cup Course, they are able to cross-reference their performance data against that already available on the Challengers. Their additional advantage is that they can sail just before or after the Challengers, so get a better bearing on the actual conditions on the day - even though the winds may change in strength or direction.

Another implication of the claim is that the Defenders are able to conduct a closed race session on the America's Cup course, while the Challengers are obliged to conduct an open session in terms of the performance data."


NZ want access to Oracle's speed data
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 01:05 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 03:01 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 12:16 PM

Back to Live racing today NZ vs. LR.
12:15 on the Youtube channel.
They also race on Tuesday.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 12:25 PM

More live coverage provided by TVNZ
http://tvnz.co.nz/americas-cup-news/america-s-coverage-tvnz-5484605

Here is the schedule showing local New Zealand time.
http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/News2013/Americas_Cup_Race_Schedule_2013.pdf

and their home page.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 07:55 PM

I'm a little behind watching this broadcast...but some thought provoking action today. NZ had their jib break (halyard or zipper busted...something)...after some wrangling, they released the jib off the boat, their chase boat pounced on it to collect it and LR had to tack away to avoid the chase boat. Should that be a penalty? (I think so...at least a simple foul).

It's a big A-cat now!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 08:05 PM

It's hard to tell how much they're loosing downwind without the jib...but NZ is in some big breeze and the lack of a jib hasn't cost them anything yet. NZ running at over 38 knots while LR is running in the low 30's.

NZ is still foiling all the way through their gybes and making 5 knots better than LR. I hope Oracle has something for this...NZ sure looks good....and I'm wondering if we'll see jibs in the future.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 11:01 PM

Has there been any training/testing without jibs?

I'm not sure but it sure seems that should have been a penalty of some sort.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/21/13 11:22 PM

I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 12:54 AM

Great start. LR has shown improvement. . . right up to the boundary penalty.

Here is the full replay and the edit of the jib incident.




Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 03:13 AM

ETNZ impresses me more every time they hit the water. Sure hope Oracle can answer. These guys are ridiculously fast...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 11:35 AM

check out the high tech hobie bob.

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dlennard
I think the chase boat was keeping Prada from running over the sail, which would not have been good for Prada. When you sail around a capsized boat or a boat stuck on the mark do you protest them for being in the way?


Good point...but they're not throwing stuff in the water that I have to dodge as we proceed up the course. Consider if LR had been closer and they couldn't avoid hitting the jib and got fouled up in it. What then?
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 12:05 PM

Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.

It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
check out the high tech hobie bob.



That'll be useful when the top half of the wing breaks off. I can't see it doing much more than that.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.

It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.

Mike


So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.

All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?

Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by brucat
Of course there are rules to cover this. LR would have wasted no time protesting had there been a foul.

It would have been nice if the announcers walked us through the rules that applied. If they did, I missed it.

Mike


So now dropping stuff in the water is actually a valid strategy.

All that teams need to do is get a roll of cellophane, and drop it to leward to try and foul the opposing boat?

Isn't there a rule that says that you cannot discharge anything off of your boat according to the RRS? They had to stop using rubber bands on spinnakers because of it.


I know in the 45s you could drop a crew member and not have to come back. We've seen the old AC monohulls drop kites and stuff off the boat with no penalty. I would presume the rules allow you to drop stuff on the 72s (clearly since NZ received no penalty) but I would hope it limits the James Bond devices. ;-)
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I know in the 45s you could drop a crew member and not have to come back.


Hence the new term "drop it like a bad jib".

Maybe Snoop Dog will re-make his song for that....
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 02:34 PM

Yes there is a rule in RRS. No, the AC does not use all of the rules we do...

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 03:23 PM

Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 03:50 PM

Any body have any more info about the "strings" in the wheel that Andy Green said control ride height?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 04:51 PM

I have thought for years they should have full contact cat racing on the X-games... that would get people back interested in the sport ...

kidding aside, amazing foil to foil gybe's without the headsail...
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Any body have any more info about the "strings" in the wheel that Andy Green said control ride height?


I had wild visions of green and red yarn attached to the wheel trying to figure out how in the heck they would use this, attached to a wheel no less, to control anything.

I think I remember seeing someone (Oracle) with some sort of wire that went around the inside perimeter of the wheel - I thought it was structural to keep the wheel as light as possible but maybe it's part of this string system they mentioned.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.


I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!

I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Just watching the replay. It seems Tucker and Andy have never heard of A and C class cats and really don't have a concept of what headsails do. Stating they won't be able to go as HIGH without the jib. Clueless.


I agree - but our group will be a tough crowd to get the details up to our standards while appealing to the masses!

I was astonished at how little (if anything) NZ lost without the jib. It looked like NZ got hooked into a big puff on their first jib-less downwind run but LR wasn't going to catch them anyway. Jibs will be important to maneuverability at the pre-start but maybe we see them put them on furlers and just get them out of the way as the wind builds?


LR and oracle both have a line around the inside of the wheel, but like you, I can't see how it controls anything. I've heard it mentioned twice. Plus ,I thought all that foil stuff had to be fixed/ non-adjustable.
The only use I see for the jib is getting out of irons if you got luffed up in the pre start, and the drag penalty may not be worth it. You'd have to believe with all the money dumped into R&D they'd have this figured out. C's and A's use only mains/wings because it is the most efficient use of the allowed sail area. Marstrom also advocates this on their cats big and small.
The other idea is maybe ETNZ dumped the jib on purpose to give their sister ship a chance at getting a point and not being behind the 5 min. cut off. crazy laugh
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 06:09 PM

Rudders are fixed but daggers are fully adjustable.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 06:48 PM

From the camera angles shown, I was very impressed by how aggressive ETNZ was during the final minute before the start.

Mike
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 07:51 PM

I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 07:57 PM

It's wet.
Let's wish them good luck.
Artemis Racing Launches Blue Boat

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I'm not a fan of the 2 minutes of time in the box. That just is not enough for any real jostling for position. You pretty much seal your fate in your initial positioning.


+1
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
It's wet.
Let's wish them good luck.
Artemis Racing Launches Blue Boat

[Linked Image]


Too cool. They are going to get handled but I'm pulling for them. Lot of blood, sweat, and tears getting that boat ready to sail.


Job well done Team Artemis....
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/22/13 11:01 PM

Posted By: AzCat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by itbvolks
Originally Posted by mummp
It's wet.
Let's wish them good luck.
Artemis Racing Launches Blue Boat




[Linked Image]


Too cool. They are going to get handled but I'm pulling for them. Lot of blood, sweat, and tears getting that boat ready to sail.


Job well done Team Artemis....


Damn, that thing is foiling at the dock!
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 03:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5Q3C_2wIM


Off she goes!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 06:24 PM

We go live in 35 minutes.
Let's see what LR has done to close the gap.
Starts (check)
Aero package (check)
Boundaries (fail)
Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES
Live channel
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 06:39 PM

Good stuff. So Oracle hints that their jib if flat enough to assist the wing.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 07:01 PM

Live feed if you are in New Zealand
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 07:09 PM

I've been watching virtual eye on dual screens with the live feed. I like the overhead view which we seem to get less of with the live video. Really shows their downwind angles, as well as the upwind from a great perspective.
Virtual Eye
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:02 PM

I see that LR had their code 0 on deck, have they been using it?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:08 PM

LR DNF'ed due to 5 minute delta
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes.
Let's see what LR has done to close the gap.
Starts (check)
Aero package (check)
Boundaries (fail)
Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES
Live channel


What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:28 PM

Is there a rule against humiliating a competitor?
Delta of 7:20, poor guys aboard LR looked devastated.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mummp
We go live in 35 minutes.
Let's see what LR has done to close the gap.
Starts (check)
Aero package (check)
Boundaries (fail)
Getting stuck in the mud (fail). . . Really? YES
Live channel


What!? seriously? I can't wait to see the replay tonight.


Here is the replay. The live broadcast missed the 30 seconds before the start, and it's missing on the replay also. Oh well.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:49 PM

Again, LR sailed a longer course upwind. Waiting on the stats.

americascup/status/359773110301511680
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 08:58 PM

Wow, TNZ certainly is kicking some LR butt. I'll bet Larry is skeerd now! If not, he should be!

At almost no time, did I see LR posting a faster speed than TNZ. TNZ seemed to be going downwind at around 38, while LR was around 33-35. It was closer upwind, only about 1-2kt diff. but still slower, all the time.

Anyone hear why was LR so late at the start?

And Philip, thanks for all the links, great stuff!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
It was closer upwind, only about 1-2kt diff. but still slower, all the time.

Anyone hear why was LR so late at the start?

And Philip, thanks for all the links, great stuff!


and LR sailed a longer course.

they were late because they were stuck in the muck. Some have said it might have screwed up the foils and made them slow.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 09:12 PM

Today's point officially advances NZ to the LV finals, as if that is a surprise.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/23/13 09:17 PM

more on Artemis
and more
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 12:02 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 05:18 AM

I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 08:14 AM

Did you guys catch the comment about the effect of current on apparent wind?
Didn't hear all of it but the idea was that sailing with the current reduces apparent wind and their by overall speed.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 09:55 AM

I heard it, I can't seem to figure out how that would work. Kinda put it up there is some of the other really silly stuff they have said.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:20 AM

I think one of the Oracle sailors told them about it so some information may have gotten lost in translation.
It does kind of make sense, if the current takes you in the same direction as the wind you lose some wind speed.
I have noticed this myself while sailing but don't think sailing against the current is worth it at the speeds that we do?
Posted By: northsea junkie

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 11:17 AM

I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.

Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.

So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.

This will certainly effect the apparant wind; this app.wind will increase and will be turned more to the bow (more close-hauled).

If you will lose boatspeed because of that effect, will finally depend on the boat. The boatspeed will even want to be higher because of this increased (apparant) wind (the speed was already higher because of the current).

Only problem is the direction of the apparant wind which is more and more close-hauled!
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 11:21 AM

We're they (ETNZ at least) not sailing downwind when that comment was made?Seems that sailing with the current would increase the apparent wind downhill.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 11:46 AM

These guys are quite often right, but could certainly use some John Madden-like graphics to walk us through the logic.

With all the technical wizardry, why is there no announcer's pen so they can draw right on the screen? TV weather reporters have this, after all...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think one of the Oracle sailors told them about it so some information may have gotten lost in translation.

I'm guessing has more to do with less efficiency/lift of the foils. Probably does sound like it was lost in translation.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 12:41 PM

Glad these races are short. With these kind of blowouts imagine a 3 hour race(more than boring). I was watching the Utube live feed view count and it was only about 8K. Not very high. And after 2 legs I was only checking back every few min to see if anything interesting had happened.
If NZ is blowing out Luna this bad imagine how bad the racing will be against Artimis.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
I've taken some private flak for picking NZL early; I hope some of the folks who may be bent at my surety realize that, not only do I believe that they have the fastest boat upon the sea (tip o' the hat, Cap'n Nat), but I also feel some national pride in the work done by Nat Shaver, Bobby Kleinschmit and Pete Melvin, all members of my Club, who picked up sticks to live in New Zealand for over two years to get to this point. Hat's off.


Darren Bundocks comment,

Oracle is getting prepared for the Final, and seeing the Kiwis races, I'm glad OR has a two boat test to keep pushing the limits, TNZ is fast, Oracle looks even quicker , but how much faster can you go?
Will find out soon, but I'm sure beyond speed diff , if any, we will see some incredible Matches between them.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 12:58 PM

Ben Ainslie reflects back on that tragic day.

"And in the middle of one of the bear aways we got a sharp gust at just the wrong angle. We didn’t wipe out but it was a hairy moment. I was thinking, ‘What am I doing here?’ I was thinking about Bart.”

To tell your grandkids, ‘I was there with Jess Ennis or Mo Farah at the closing ceremony’.”

With typical modesty, Ainslie neglects to mention that he was chosen to carry Team GB’s flag in the Olympic Stadium that night."


[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 01:06 PM

ETNZ's Chris McAsey and Dean Barker, Luna Rossa's Giles Scott Podcast
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I think something is lost in the translation and/or the transmission of this remark.

Look, apparent wind is the resultant of the true wind in the sail and the boatspeed in opposite direction. The last is derived from the so-called groundspeed.

So, when the current is with you, your groundspeed will be higher then in the situation when the current is against you.


I think the foils add more complexity to the equation.
The speed at which an AC72 starts foiling is determined by the speed through the water (23kts?).
So to reach the same speed through the water you would need to sail quicker over ground than if you where sailing against the current right? (Maybe 3kts or so).
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 01:34 PM

That makes sense at lower wind ranges where foiling may be borderline. Yesterday the comment was made that ETNZ was using it to their advantage at 35-38kts. It would seem to me that if they were already traveling those speeds then the adverse current is only extra drag. I am no expert though, nor did I stay at the holiday inn last night.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 01:35 PM

The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.

It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 01:57 PM

OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;

"Right or Left?"
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
OR...perhaps TNZ was so far ahead, they were just 'testing the waters' i.e. they took the opportunity to do some on course speed testing, to see if one side of the course was heavily favored with that current/wind combination, so if they run into that same combo in the finals, they'll already know the answer to the age old question at the top mark;

"Right or Left?"


I'm quite confident these guys knew exactly where they were going and why. The effect of current on VMG is something they got sorted out long ago.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.

It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.


The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
The less windspeed comment does make sense. As the water moves at 3 knots in the same direction as the wind, it's just like having 3 knots less wind. Consider your car on a conveyor belt. If the wind was 10mph and you are driving into it at 10 mph, you would normally experience 20mph of apparent wind. If your car was now on a conveyor belt that was moving 10mph in the opposite direction (so your car is now not making any forward progress), the apparent wind would be only 10.

It doesn't matter foiling or not - the speed vector of the water current that is parallel to the wind directly subtracts (or adds!) to the wind speed.


The foiling side of it is to get the lift, to free up hull drag. Which creates less effort on the sails/wing to move the boat faster.More flow over the foils increases lift ,but would also increase drag. The light air basis of the original statement may have some merit, but since SF is not known for light air (to the contrary) I don't think it pertains here. As your speed increases ( due to wind or current)so does your apparent wind. Don't let these non-multihull sailing commentators scramble your brain with their babble. All of you guys know better.


Hmmm...I'm not sure that the water still isn't the largest resistance to the boat speed even on foils...but I'll have to ponder that.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 04:48 PM

I'd have to guess aero drag is bigger once on foils.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I'd have to guess aero drag is bigger once on foils.


Yeah, I was struggling with the physics on this but if you take it to the extreme and consider a surface with absolutely no friction, you really don't care how fast that surface is moving as long as it isn't tied to your motive force. So, as your friction on your running surface is reduced, the amount it moves is less important to your true motion...you guys are right. I think the foil drag is still significant so current does come into play (most definitely upwind) but it is significantly less a factor than it would be on a 6knot SB. If the effect of water current on the old slow monodulls was 90%, I suspect it's closer to as little as 25-30% on the 72 cats.

What I do think was interesting is the commentator's statement that the maximum windspeed allowable for racing was adjusted by factoring in current...funny, this.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 05:47 PM

Big Blue

Go get 'em!
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 05:48 PM

As I consider this further, I think the current still does have some impact on different points of sail - consider reaching when the current and the wind are in the same direction and you are moving perpendicular to them both...the water movement does subtract from the overall wind here because the boat is having to directly compensate for the additional slip to leeward that subtracts from (or push to windward that adds to) the wind. On this point of sail, if the boat doesn't have any friction in the water, they're just sliding down the course.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 07:43 PM

hell yeah
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 07:44 PM

I'm smiling
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 07:46 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 07:48 PM

Let her fly!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:06 PM

So the big question is will they race Sat.? I sure hope so, even if it's a rout.
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:20 PM

What is the skin on that rear beam made of. It has the same look as the wing.

[img:left]http://photo.americascup.com/index....mp;FolioID=1358&numpage=31&pre=g[/img]


Edit: How do I enable HTML on my posts?
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:22 PM

Based on comments above - I see very little chance of them being out this weekend other than to shake the boat out...

That said - I'm excited to see them out there and wish them luck!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
What is the skin on that rear beam made of. It has the same look as the wing.

[img:left]http://photo.americascup.com/index....mp;FolioID=1358&numpage=31&pre=g[/img]



Watch this.
Originally Posted by mummp
Good stuff. So Oracle hints that their jib if flat enough to assist the wing.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
So the big question is will they race Sat.? I sure hope so, even if it's a rout.

Agreed. I doesn't really matter until semi-finals August 6, but TOW, starts, etc. can only help.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:34 PM

Beautiful
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:36 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:39 PM

I would guess based on the images we're seeing today - testing is going pretty damn well!!! Those guys - that crew, they've gotta be so stoked... Testament to the whole operation....

Great image find Philip!
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/24/13 10:59 PM

Great to see a 3rd boat. I hope they race even if it's a take it easy lap around the course.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 01:44 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=g-high-u&v=1I0a1Vfd8Z0
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 11:55 AM

The smile tells it all . . .
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 11:55 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 12:09 PM

"Artemis will miss its seventh scheduled race in the Louis Vuitton Cup challenger series Thursday, so Luna Rossa will sail unopposed. It is not known when the Swedish team will enter the regatta, but it probably won't happen until the semifinals start Aug. 6."

Artemis-happy-with-initial-test-run-in-new-boat
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 12:24 PM

They look nice and stable in those clips.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 01:48 PM

I'm sure no one wants that boat racing sooner than the Artemis team.

However, it would be borderline reckless to race the new boat within days of splashing it. This isn't an off the shelf boat, isn't likely to handle like the old boat (which hasn't been sailable since the tragedy), and can hit close to 50 knots.

I totally respect their decision.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
What is the skin on that rear beam made of. It has the same look as the wing.

[img:left]http://photo.americascup.com/index....mp;FolioID=1358&numpage=31&pre=g[/img]


Edit: How do I enable HTML on my posts?


Same as the wing. Carbon/(nomex?) frames with Clysar film. Same heat shrink stuff your CDs come wrapped in.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 03:13 PM

Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
Looking at the Artemis wing, it looks wider in the middle and narrower at the top the the ENZ wing. Has anyone done a wing comparision for all the boats?

Maybe this will update shortly
Originally Posted by mummp
Use Google translate if your browser doesn't do it automatically.
http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.fr/2013/06/scoop-les-ac72-devoiles.html
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 03:20 PM

try this
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 03:21 PM

and this
Looking at the NZ wing profile might explain their blazing speed. Artemis seems to be heading in the same direction. Definitely a lower aero profile. Oracle, what's ya got??
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 04:15 PM

Morning briefing
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 05:15 PM

Very interesting read on the wing designs!

Oracle's LE looks thick. It's going to be interesting to see how it stacks up against ETNZ.

I gotta admit - I love the look of Artemis's boat. Big Blue is classy looking.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by mummp


Black Flag, really? LR clearly doesn't want to be embarrassed when they run aground (again)? Blaming it on wanting to build teamwork? Companies pay big bucks to send employees to "race" on 12 Meters in Newport as a team-building exercise...

It amazes me, every time I think I couldn't possibly respect the leadership of this team any less, they find yet another creative way to lower the bar...

Sadly, I used to love LR, back in the San Diego Cup.

Mike
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 07:10 PM

Right!

Just run it! Clearly they need the work!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 07:28 PM

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 09:24 PM

New Artemis cat is looking good:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
New Artemis cat is looking good:
[Linked Image]


They look better than Luna Rosa in my opinion. I guess we will eventually see.

-Rob V.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/25/13 11:23 PM

Stable beautiful foiling in 12 knots.
Tom Schnackenberg "Boat's peak today was 40(knots)".
Each and every single member of the Artemis program are already WINNERS! What a journey.
"Keep an eye on us Bart"
Go eat you some Prada!!!!

Awesome video.

Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 12:09 AM

I gotta admit - she looks good early. She's running safe at the moment but it's looking good!

Love these vids!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 03:19 AM

Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Why wouldn't Artemis go ahead and cross the start line, then go practice, and hope that LR crashes? They are giving races away. They can start behind, and then practice over the course, and if LR does fk up badly, who knows, they might even win one, while practicing.


These guys are nowhere near race form. They just started foiling, for the first time, a day or so ago. To jump into a race will lock them into the conditions for the day and will put the team into a scenario where human nature takes over and they start making aggressive decisions they may cost them. It's a better decision to not race and get some time on the boat. LR has had months of foiling practice and experience - I wouldn't expect that Artemis really has anything for them at this point.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 01:48 PM

And LR did have a problem.
http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php?3702-The-Fish-Did-It
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 03:02 PM

Yikes! It's going to be interesting the first time a dagger board foil hits something in the water while at full speed. What type of marine life is in the Bay that they might encounter? Dolphins? Any big sea turtles? Orca's? That'd slow you down!

I know I've hit plenty of turtles on my lake, luckily I wasn't going 40kts up on foils!
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 04:41 PM

Probably a seal.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 04:41 PM

There are plenty of sharks in SF bay apparently.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Probably a seal.


freakin seals are everywhere there.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 04:58 PM


It was probably Andre.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by bacho

It was probably Andre.


Is that the seal from Arrested Development?
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 06:33 PM

In talking about this punk. Thinks it owns the place. Could possibly be in cahoots with LE as well.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 06:52 PM

I'm pretty sure I missed that one.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 07:51 PM

Sorry.....I couldn't resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnDH1va7iC0
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/26/13 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Sorry.....I couldn't resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnDH1va7iC0

Shark week you say? grin
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/13 03:16 AM

Looks more like the T foil snapped off.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/13 03:14 PM


America's Cup
Recent News
July 26, 2013
Barclay: The underdog
GMR_AC34JulyD22_0790

What is it about the underdog that compels us to support them? Is it that we relate to the underdog at a personal level and so we want to see them succeed?

Many do succeed. Cassius Clay was a 7-1 underdog in 1964 when he took on Sonny Listen for the heavyweight championship of the world; Seabiscuit, the unremarkable thoroughbred that lost his first seventeen races, went on to capture the heart of America; and Susan Boyle, the unpolished 47-year-old woman performing on Britain’s Got Talent — more than 64 million people have now seen the inspiring video clip of her turning Simon Cowell’s smirk into a smile.
A tribute to Bart is carried on the Artemis Racing wing.

May 9, 2013, will forever be etched into our minds as the day we lost Andrew “Bart” Simpson. It affected all of us in some way, but nowhere near as much or as deeply as the Artemis Racing team. They were heartbroken and devastated by what happened.

The team didn’t know if it could compete. In fact, they didn’t know if they wanted to compete. But over the past 10 weeks that feeling has changed for several reasons: for Bart, for team owner Torbjörn Törnqvist, for the fans and most importantly for themselves and their families – they did not want the story to end on May 9.

Part of the journey back required the team being confident in their new boat. The other teams assisted with actual load data (including what was learned from the ORACLE TEAM USA capsize) and my information is that Artemis Racing tested Big Blue up to 120 percent with some of those loads! For those who have seen the photos of Big Blue being bent, distorted, pulled and pushed, it was clearly a rigorous process and she came through with flying colors.
Load testing the structure of Artemis.

Now, Artemis Racing is back and was out foiling on day one. Inspirational! Big Blue and the team look amazing. Today will be the third day in a row they are out testing and tuning her for racing.

When will they race? Will they be competitive? I think we all want them to do well.

Paul Cayard calls it “climbing a mountain” and Artemis Racing has been doing just that. Step by step. They are not at the top, but they are close! I look forward to seeing them racing. I look forward to seeing them atop the mountain.

Stephen Barclay
CEO, America’s Cup Event Authority
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/13 05:32 PM

Glenn Ashby will helm NZ for today's RR.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/13 08:27 PM

Food for thought.
So, IF the Kiwis choose to advance to the Final and IF Artemis Racing were to beat Luna Rossa in the Semi Final, Emirates Team New Zealand may feel vulnerable to being unable to control any changes to the Protocol that Artemis Racing and ORACLE TEAM USA want to make.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/27/13 09:14 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/28/13 04:25 PM

TODAY:
Racing resumes between LR vs NZ at 12:15 PT.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Virtual Eye
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/28/13 04:27 PM




Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 02:37 AM

Replay
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 02:43 AM

Lucky **** gets to drive . . . . and gets to take his adopted son along also. I'm jealous.
pics



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 02:47 AM

NZ has chosen to not race Artemis on Tuesday. What??
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 02:48 AM

Hear the whole thing here:
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 02:51 AM

today's stats
LR improving, but still sailing a longer course.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by mummp
NZ has chosen to not race Artemis on Tuesday. What??



In this case, would AR go sail the course?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 12:24 PM

Artemis wasn't planning on racing, but since NZ has stated they're not racing, Artemis could make it a practice run and earn a point. At this point it doesn't matter for either team.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/29/13 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
Lucky **** gets to drive . . . . and gets to take his adopted son along also. I'm jealous.
pics





Lenny Kravitz is Tom Cruise's SON??

WHAT??

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvuL5jyCHOw


;^)
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 12:17 AM

Like we needed another reason to despise Tom Cruise??? mad

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 06:25 AM

Maybe the Scientologist will have an entry with the next AC?
Isn't their "religion" already based on a guy with a spaceship? wink
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 11:54 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 03:30 PM

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...ocusing-our-plan-on-what-we-can-control/

“But we also have a fairly large amount of work to do to our boat, a lot of changes and modifications intended to improve the performance.”
. . . the Kiwis will focus on a number of subtle changes which should, as Barker explains, “make us significantly faster around the course.”

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 03:31 PM

Turbulent Journey for America’s Cup
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 07/30/13 03:31 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/01/13 04:08 PM




Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/01/13 04:09 PM

Chris Draper Interview
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 12:22 PM

Starting around :36 sec in, US-17 foiling upwind?


http://vimeo.com/71513710
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 12:32 PM

Good read.
Evolutionary Optimization of AC72 Catamarans

Some would argue that this view is contradicted by trends in classes such as the F18 and A-Class catamarans, and the International Moth. The F18 and A-Class cats have both seen a trend to wider, flatter hulls in recent years. However, this occurred prior to the successful use of efficient lifting foils. I would not be surprised if, once full foiling becomes more commonplace in these classes, a trend back to more conventional displacement-type hulls occurs.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 12:32 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 12:36 PM

NZ broke rules

they said it was worth it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 12:41 PM

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 05:12 PM

Meanwhile the Little AC is moving along as well:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Starting around :36 sec in, US-17 foiling upwind?


http://vimeo.com/71513710


Mabye, but it could just be beam reaching on two different tacks?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/02/13 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by mummp
NZ broke rules

they said it was worth it.


How much did Tom Cruz have to "donate" to get to drive?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:32 PM

NZ gives us an empty teaser.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:33 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:34 PM


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:35 PM

Draper vs. Outteridge: Rivalry renewed
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:36 PM

Head-to-head, Artemis Racing vs. Luna Rossa Challenge
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:38 PM

Jump to page 23 if the link doesn't do it for you.
Wind Powered. Data Powered
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:41 PM

I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not.
GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 05:58 PM

I picked up a Chromecast last week - watching the matches on a 27" monitor was already pretty cool, but on the 60" where it belongs is better. Ready for the semis.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/03/13 06:23 PM

John,

In surround sound also.

I got one the day it released. Love it. There are APK's that are already created for phone to device directly (i.e. gallery, dropbox, music, videos, etc) and the device was rooted within hours. It's just a matter of time before you can cast anything from phone to device. There is an app already that the dev will be updating soon. I can email some info if you want. I'm android fyi.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by mummp
NZ broke rules

they said it was worth it.


How much did Tom Cruz have to "donate" to get to drive?


Huh??? No celebrity pays for anything. He probably even got paid for appearing. This was undoubtedly a publicity stunt, to get a sponsor, appease a sponsor, or was directly paid for by a sponsor.

This would be true for any A-list celebrity. Especially true for this guy. There's no way his ego would allow his wallet to open for this...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 11:47 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 12:08 PM

Artemis and Oracle dance together on the course.
Loick Peyron hints of an Aero package for Artemis in the next few days.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Artemis and Oracle dance together on the course.
Loick Peyron hints of an Aero package for Artemis in the next few days.

That is probably what you see in this pic:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 02:47 PM

Another excellent article by Richard Gladwell.
Is it fair??
The Challengers are deemed to be different because although they are also sailing on the America's Cup course, they are (correctly) deemed to be racing in a Selection Series, while the Defenders because they are a 'Team of One' have no Defender Selection Series, and are immune from the requirement to publicly release data.
Jury Decision Defender Candidate Status and Course Access
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 07:09 PM

How 'bout a foiling gybe from Artemis

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 07:10 PM

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/04/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
I put this here for absolutely no apparent reason, but why not.
GoPro raises the bar again. Could be the killer app. I can think of hundreds of uses, especially where cameras are mounted out of reach.


The Contour+ also does this too. I think Contour brought this type of connectivity to the market and GoPro had to chase them. I've got a Contour and it's a nice camera. I've had the chance to compare the Contour and the latest GoPro and if I had to do it again, I probably would go with the GoPro because it's video quality is slightly better. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/13 01:36 PM

It's race day. Well we see a competitive match? Aggressive prestart?

We go live at 1:00 PM PST.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/13 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
It's race day. Well we see a competitive match? Aggressive prestart?

We go live at 1:00 PM PST.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup


My bad. Tuesday is the 6th. Racing is tomorrow.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/13 03:52 PM

Interesting - things have been quiet with Oracle the last week or so. With all the updates from ETNZ and Artemis - OTUSA has been pretty quiet (other than team guy introductions)....

Surely with them having a few runs with ETNZ and Artemis - they would have some updates?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/05/13 09:21 PM

More about it here.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:26 AM

He's back! I wish it was a bad dream, but it's not.
The abhorrently annoying Todd Harris
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:27 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:29 AM

Port or Starboard entry: Which is better?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:30 AM

Is NZ foiling upwind?
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
He's back! I wish it was a bad dream, but it's not.
The abhorrently annoying Todd Harris


He got back from the Tour De France (where he's actually not bad)

Whats worse is Jobson. That guy shouldn't be allowed near a microphone.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


Its possible to foil upwind in these boats... all they need to do is trim the angle of the boards to pop her up, but the problem is that when you do that, you lose headway bigtime apparently.

I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:24 PM

Artimes and Oracle.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by catman

I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Whats worse is Jobson. That guy shouldn't be allowed near a microphone.

I watch an episode of "The Moment - 101 America's Cup Sailor" on my new Chromecast. Jobson doing a reality sailing show. Don't watch. Jobson at his worst. Acting and reality TV should not be in Jobson's quiver. FAIL

On second thought, watch it, for some comedy relief. . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 01:50 PM

Here it is if you have nothing better to do with an hour of your life.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided

I think you might see foiling upwind during racing to get out from under someone or some other tactical use but not as a normal mode of upwind sailing.


That might be worth watching to see if/how they would implement upwind foiling as a tactic... but you're right from what I've been able to read - you can foil, but at the expense of a lot of leeway uphill...
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by catman

I like John Navas videos, but I intentionally didn't post this video because I find his commentary more annoying than Todd Harris. I'd rather he go back to the loop drum beat audio track.


Yeah, I turn the volume down. He does get some good video though. Just a couple things in it that are good to see. Some good foiling gybes by US-17 and on the one upwind leg she starts to rise on the foil. Looking like the Cup will be a good match.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 06:34 PM


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 06:46 PM

We go live at 1:00 PM PST. Race starts 1:15
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:04 PM

I better not get blocked out on the east coast!
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:19 PM

My live feed on the iPad doesn't seem to be working yet anyone else?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:21 PM

Feed hasn't started. You should see the countdown timer.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:23 PM

Open this in a second tab. Alot of great toggle switches as well as different vitual camera views.
virtual eye
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:29 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 07:45 PM

Feed is up
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:01 PM

virtual eye feed is up
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:23 PM

There is something wrong with virtual eye, speeds and distances are way off.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:26 PM

My virtual eye looks fine.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:31 PM

Artemis closing the gap.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:32 PM

Nice to see the on-board cameras and mikes. About time.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:39 PM

Italians much faster than a few weeks ago.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 08:46 PM

Artemis got a little work on the foiling gybe.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:01 PM

Delta of 1:57, not that bad actually all things considered.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:12 PM

Wing wash live line data. Cool.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:14 PM

I hope the guys on Artemis know they put in a good fight. Delta of 1:57 is the closest delta of the regatta...

That's a fast boat. Little work to be done but there's a race to be had...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:44 PM

If Artemis can get the foiling gybes down then they looked to have a weapon upwind. They reeled in almost 150m on that first upwind leg...
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:53 PM

Artemis looks promising.
Sailed a shorter course and took the top speed.
stats
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/06/13 09:59 PM

replay

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 02:07 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 03:09 AM

That pre-start was horrendous. For both teams. They both have excuses (our first race, our wing ripped), but wow, that was pathetic.

Artemis definitely has their work cut out for them. Their own target speeds upwind were 2 knots less than LR.

ETNZ has nothing to worry about, other than self-destruction...

It was GREAT to have Kenny back on the air! I'd much rather be rooting for him sailing, but he is definitely at the top of my list for commentators at the moment. What's up with Gary? He sounded like he was on a breathing machine every time he spoke...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 03:51 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
What's up with Gary? He sounded like he was on a breathing machine every time he spoke...

He was getting battered riding around in the rib trying to keep up with the spaceships.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 06:24 AM

SailRacing Magazine
67 pages of all kinds of goodies
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by brucat
What's up with Gary? He sounded like he was on a breathing machine every time he spoke...

He was getting battered riding around in the rib trying to keep up with the spaceships.


I thought so too, but never heard an engine. I hope that's all it was.

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 07:31 PM

Live feed starts in 15 minutes for today's race.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 07:32 PM

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/07/13 08:15 PM

thanks again philip...I just caught the start and would have missed it otherwise.

well...crap...5 seconds into it and I lost the feed. Can't get it on my phone either.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 12:17 AM

stats
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 12:17 AM

Replay
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 12:18 AM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 01:19 PM

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 01:20 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 03:29 PM

Race 2 interviews and videos
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/08/13 10:30 PM

Good to know . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 01:48 PM

Oracle Team USA forfeits both ACWS season titles

Jury Decision

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/oracle-team-usa-withdraws-retroactively-from-acws-13070.php
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 01:52 PM

Word is Artemis was pulling off foiling gybes all afternoon during yesterday's practice session.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 02:19 PM



Dalton slams Oracle as cheats

video

America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.

An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.


Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 05:13 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6vXebWuOIE


Artemis practicing foiling gybes. Overall - looks much improved. We'll see what things bring today once the race starts! Would love to see them put in a great start and force LR to actually race.

Should be fun!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


Dalton slams Oracle as cheats

video

America's Cup expert Peter Lester says it comes down to who made the call. "I think a banning from this sport but let's get it very clear - I don't think it's necessarily who did the work on the boats. Who gave the instruction to do the work on the boats is probably the more pertinent point and getting to the bottom of that could be difficult.

An investigation has started under sailing's rule 69.




Well, its not like the lead bricks being moved around would have changed the results of the regattas ...

However the boats should have been inspected/measured prior to every regatta. I just don't see how RC or anyone else would knowingly do this given that the ACWS to them is pretty meaningless overall.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:16 PM

O.K. all you techies. Looks like I'm blacked out from viewing today's race.
http://www.youtube.com/americascup
NBC is broadcasting today's race as a taped delay
If this is the case I'm pissed. Anybody know a hack if indeed we are blacked out in the US.

Should be a close and exciting race. Last delta was 2 minutes, and that was with Artemis not succeeding with the foiling gybe. Looks like they found the key yesterday. If that's the case should be close racing.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:19 PM

Has Artemis unlocked the key to foiling gybes?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:26 PM

Any idea what time NBC is televising this? And I'm guessing it's on NBC-Sports Network, not the regular NBC?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Any idea what time NBC is televising this? And I'm guessing it's on NBC-Sports Network, not the regular NBC?


Correct. 7pm ET on NBCSports
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:28 PM

So these ASSHATS at NBC are going to force me to listen to that knucklehead Todd Harris? Really?

Help me out here Tad. There's got to be a work around.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:30 PM

Thanks Philip, I just went to the NBC Sports website and found this program schedule info, scroll down the page for all the dates/times:

http://nbcsportsgrouppressbox.com/2...p-to-16-hours-of-2013-louis-vuitton-cup/
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks Philip, I just went to the NBC Sports website and found this program schedule info, scroll down the page for all the dates/times:

http://nbcsportsgrouppressbox.com/2...p-to-16-hours-of-2013-louis-vuitton-cup/


"Veteran announcer Todd Harris will serve as the play-by-play commentator for the NBC Sports Network telecasts. Harris will be joined by former America’s Cup Helmsman and Volvo Ocean Race skipper Ken Read, as well as renowned sailor and author Gary Jobson."

Lord help me. I would rather listen to Zamfir blowing his Pan Flute.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:44 PM

Next best thing for North America and closest thing to live.
Virtual Eye
Gives you the option to enable live audio commentator.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:49 PM

So are we getting blacked out in the US from live you tube feed now?

Blah!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:51 PM

Has anybody installed the app on their phone? It suppose to have the option to view races. Wonder if it is blocked also.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 07:58 PM

Here's the app.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:00 PM

Any predictions?
I'm going conservative and say that LR will take this one with a 58 second lead.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:01 PM

Virtual Eye is now active
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:09 PM

Anybody else have issues with broken audio on virtual eye?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:10 PM

Wind building steadily. Might reach the limit by race end.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:13 PM

Audio fixed with page refresh
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:15 PM

If only you could turn off the commentators, especially Jobson and Tucker!
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:15 PM

To verify - NBC televised tonight at 7pm?

I'll be pissed if I can't watch my race tonight!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:18 PM

Yes, on NBC "Sports Chanel", at 7pm through 9pm eastern (US) time.

Did NBC buy Versus? The reason I ask is, with my Comcast Cable, NBC Sports is on the same channel (42) as the old Versus Sports channel at my house.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:22 PM

Artemis 25 seconds behind at the bottom mark
Posted By: AzCat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:24 PM

I'm watching it right now on the app LIVE!
Posted By: AzCat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:26 PM

I can watch it live on my iPad but not on my iPhone
Posted By: AzCat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:28 PM

Can't stream it to my tv either, but am watching on the iPad
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:29 PM

Im getting it live on the app. You can chose any of 4 cameras
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:32 PM

If I use cellular data, I get the live video. If I use the internet, I can't.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:38 PM

Artemis 51 seconds behind at the top mark
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:41 PM

The onboard cameras are friggin awesome
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:43 PM

Yes, NBC bought VS long ago...

Kenny is doing a great job, but it's obvious that there aren't enough guys out there with experience racing these boats to call the play. He keeps talking about gybe/sets...

Anyone else notice that whenever the guys mention the Artemis tragedy, or accidents, they stop midstream? I'm thinking the guys in their ear pieces are self-censoring...

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:48 PM

Getting live video on cellular and internet now with the app. Again, the onboard cameras are surreal.
Posted By: AzCat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:53 PM

Resolution keeps going in and out, can't imagine that NBC Like this feed. With all of the $ they are putting into the broadcast, you would think they could get a handle on the resolution!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 08:57 PM

top speed leg 4
45.7 mph
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:01 PM

My video has been flawless. The onboard cameras and audio is what I envisioned when they designed this race years ago, exceeds my expectations. Now give me a quad view screen with the ability to go full screen at will.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:04 PM

Good call Tony
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:10 PM

Well don't tell me who wins please, I'm going to watch it on TV tonight!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:15 PM

Nice hook by Draper at the start. Textbook.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:27 PM

Artemis has learnt a lot in 10 days though, almost vertical learning curve.
Interesting to hear that Ainslie won two races against Spithill today.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 09:56 PM

Interesting? With the old boat too.

Any reference?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/09/13 10:23 PM

Must have been with the old boat, Jobson said it before the start of the race.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 12:42 AM

Wow...nice luff by LR at the start, but Artemis has a lot of work to do if they are going to win tomorrow, and not much time to work on it.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 01:07 AM

Philip:

http://www.hidemyass.com/

Will basically make it so you're geographically hidden.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 10:16 AM

Things are not looking good for Oracle with the Rule 69 inquiry going forward.
Apparently they loaded their pelican strikers with 5 pounds of lead, don't really see how that would make them go faster but strange nonetheless.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 01:08 PM

Race 3 stats

Here's the replay race 3. Spectacular cinematography. The video from helicopters and chase boats were rock stable. The onboard camera depth of field was awesome, especially on the LR boat. You get the sensation of 3D from the full range depth of field and contrast. Onboard audio from the boats and sailors add the sensation of being there.

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 01:09 PM

Podcast Episode 20 - Luna Rossa's Max Sirena & Artemis Racing's Iain Percy
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 06:49 PM

Race 4, starts today at 13:15 PDT. North America can watch replay tonight or live via virtual eye with audio commentary. Live broadcast available in North America with the app.
BLUE
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 07:43 PM

John Kostecki video interview
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 08:01 PM

There is an interesting thread on SA btw on how to get around the broadcasting restrictions:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=136478&st=0
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/10/13 10:31 PM

I will we ever see fleet racing on the 72s? This match racing has been pretty boring.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 12:58 AM

So what does one do with an AC72 after being eliminated? I can't see tourists sailing it in St Martin.
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 01:21 AM

Puts it in a warehouse for a decade before its chopped up and thrown in the dumpster.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:43 AM

There's always...

Craig's List!

(psst, you Artemis guys can park it at my house for a few months, free!)
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 03:05 AM

Looks like the LV Finals will be broadcast on Aug. 17, 18. Here's the NBC Sports Sched for their race coverage (sorry for their formatting):

Date


Event
August 17
Louis Vuitton Cup Finals

NBCSN
6-8 p.m.
August 18
Louis Vuitton Cup Finals
NBCSN
6-8 p.m.

August 24


Louis Vuitton Cup Finals


NBCSN


7-9 p.m.

August 25*


Louis Vuitton Cup Finals


NBCSN


7-9 p.m.

August 28*


Louis Vuitton Cup Finals


NBCSN


5-7 p.m.

August 30*


Louis Vuitton Cup Finals


NBCSN


5-7 p.m.

September 7


America’s Cup Finals


NBC


4-6 p.m.

September 8


America’s Cup Finals


NBC


4-6 p.m.

September 10


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 12


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 14


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 15*


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 17*


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 19*


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.

September 21*


America’s Cup Finals


NBCSN


3:30-6 p.m.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 01:36 PM

Presumably if Oracle wins, the AC72 rule will be tweaked to allow better foiling controls - thus big blue may sail again.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:09 PM

Race 4 stats

Here is the replay of race 4. So Umps rule a double penalty on Artemis, it is assumed that the ruling was based on LR acquired ROW per Starboard. The Double was because Artemis gained an advantage because of the foul. Question is was it a good call? Did LR give Artemis room to keep clear? It looked like Outteridge did not react. Good stuff.



Post Race Conference



Race 4 digest



Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:13 PM

This was just awkward.

some pics followed by video.
RHCP pics


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:17 PM

More on Oracle cheating.
Media, they're just so . . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:20 PM


Oracle cheating?? Huh?? Best explanation of all time!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:24 PM

Richard Gladwell's take on Oracle cheating here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:39 PM

No doubt that Artemis has successfully climbed a mountain and has succeeded at every level. They plan on coming back to compete at the next cup.

Luna Rossa, on the other hand, is not the same team that was DSQ against NZ for finishing >5 minutes behind them in the round robins. They have improved dramatically, both in boat speed and handling. Both LR and NZ expect to bring updated platforms the next time they meet.

Then there is talk that both NZ and Oracle might bring upwind foiling to the game, if it proves they can get better VMG with it. We'll see.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/11/13 02:42 PM

ISAF-Racing-Rules-of-Sailing-AC-Edition-v-1.13.pdf
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 12:31 AM

That penalty on Artemis was crap. From the moment they lost right of way, they could have done nothing different. Outterage has the wheel hard to port for an eternity before they touched. If you go look at the video replay of the race at 35:46 you can clearly see outterage turn the wheel hard to port before LR crosses head to wind. He is not required to anticipate that LR will go completely to starboard. He is required to start to avoid when LR obtains right of way and he did that before that even happened. LR has to give them time and opportunity. I feel like Artemis clearly met their obligation.

The insult is that it really looked like Artemis had a shot at winning that one. They looked much better.

I hope they have an opportunity for redress...but I'm not sure how that works in this series.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 01:35 AM

Outterage even says so at 35:55. You can clearly hear him in the audio. Guess the umps didn't see it. They were probably too busy watching the jibs to determine S/P and missed it. They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds. I felt like Outterage nailed it, a successful luff, and likewise Draper pulled off an interesting reaction.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
They don't have the luxury to analyze video/audio and render a decision in a matter of seconds.


Obviously...but the judges should have a good understanding of the maneuverability of these boats and should have been able to recognize that what Artemis would have had to have done to keep clear was impossible. It's their job to know enough to make the right call...and that one should have been an easier one if they knew what they should have known.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 12:56 PM

Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.

I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.

Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I agree Jake, it was a BS call, but with the umpires and 'on the water instant penalty' program they are using, I guess they can't wait until after the race, in the protest room, to figure it out.

I think we were all pulling for Artemis to win at least one, and it did look like they had a great start going.

Now, why did they go out of bounds later in the race?


Undoubtedly because they were behind and needed to push the limits to try and get an advantage. They just pushed it too far.

The other frustration on their part is the length of time it took the umpires to issue the penalty...I'm sure they were trying to figure out what they had just been penalized for when it came up as they had just rounded the first mark. The competitor should have as much time to react as it took the judges to issue the penalty. ;-)

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in that umpire discussion that ensued after the contact. You can bet that it was not a unanimous decision.
Posted By: orphan

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 02:01 PM

In the broadcast there was talk that when the call went to jib someone signaled they were not ready and they had to delay the jibe which put them out of bounds.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 02:59 PM

That was penalty #3. #2 They attempted to go beyond LR's line and tack out of their wind shadow. This put them out of bounds. For a change LR sailed a good race with no out of bounds penalties.

I agree with the above the start was a mistake on the umpires part. Artemis had a perfect start and excellent boat speed on the first reaching leg. There is definitely a possibility they would have won had they not incurred the massive penalty from the pre-start.

It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current. I suspect this is why Oracle and TNZ have been working on foiling upwind. Even at a net VMG penalty, if they can scoot across the course extremely quickly doing 25 kts+ upwind they open up their escape options upwind...
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 03:05 PM

Don't know how reliable this report is from the SA Forums but here you go:

Quote
From the start of race 4 - here is the distressing truth:

The penalty was a joke - this is the factual evidence - I was on the water listening to the radios and saw what happened:

1. whether Artemis were at fault is dubious at best
2. The umpires penalised Artemis 25 s before the start
3. It was supposed to be a VMG penalty
4. the umpire in the booth was not accustomed with the buttons so fucked up on pressing the buttons to indicate a vmg penalty
- Umpire Mike Martin who would normally press the buttons was awol (apparently with the band "red hot chilli powders " in a rib on the water)
5. The woman replacing Mike Martin in the booth fucked up by not knowing the button sequence - after pressing the SWE penalty button you then have to press either the VMG button (as in this case) or the boat on boat bot penalty button)
6. in a panic she pressed the SWE penalty button and then realised that nothing had happened so instead of pressing the VMG button pressed the SWE button again which completely cleared the penalty.
7. It was a total kiss up - the penalty was supposed to be a vmg penalty which would have penalised Artemis by approx. 2 boat lengths on the first reach - they started 4 boat lengths ahead of LR so should have still been leading at mark 1
8. the penalty was so late it was a joke and it was eventually signalled as a boat on boat penalty (due to it being signalled so late after the start), instead of a vmg penalty
9, Artemis were completely screwed by the umpires - and that's the way it is
10. When the umpires realised they had fucked up WHY didn't they just abandon the race at mark 1 and do a restart ??
10. Artemis could have protested the race afterwards but the honour of guys like percy and TT decided that it just wasn't worth it.

CONCLUSION: Umpire's you fucked up and deprived us of a possibly the best race so far, #pleasedon'tfuckupagain

#sailonbart
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 03:59 PM

Sounds about right. A flag would have worked just fine.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us

It's also become painfully clear that, as catsailingnews pointed out and others have mentioned, the course is really poor tactically. It's virtually impossible to pass upwind unless you get a really lucky shift or really lucky puff. Otherwise you're forced to follow your competitor to stay out of the current.


I also think that the 2 minute dial up is a complete travesty of match racing. There's just not enough time at these speeds. . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:36 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:37 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:37 PM

Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:37 PM

Agree completely, the pre-start has been the most exciting part of the AC72's so far, especially for the non-sailors. Only getting one shot at a dial up really limits the action needlessly.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 04:38 PM

http://etnzblog.com/#!2013/08/big-w

Emirates Team New Zealand is now the Challenger of Record by virtue of Artemis Racing’s elimination. Emirates Team New Zealand now has the right of veto over any last-minute attempts to change the Protocol or the racing rules. - See more at: http://etnzblog.com/#!2013/08/big-w
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 06:13 PM

Slightly off-topic, but did anyone else think the same thing I did at the end of this quick vid?



Hint...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: samc99us

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/12/13 09:47 PM

Lol. I laugh every time I see on board footage of Luna Rossa. Chris Draper appeared to be carrying an ipad on his belly that made him appear like even more of a storm trooper.

I really hope they beat TNZ in one race so they aren't picked on forever about their team uniform. It's probably waay too late, hot pink jumpsuits would be better.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 08:34 AM

Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut?
I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut?
I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)


5 lbs makes no sense at all. I don't care where it was placed. It didn't change the performance of the boat. The rules are the rules though.
I think the people here realize that.

I can think of only three things it could be, cheating, stupidity or sabotage. I'm hoping it's the last one.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut?
I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)


Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Any ideas on why Oracle added 2.5kgs to the spinpole support strut?
I light air I can see some advantage of having extra weight up front, but I cant see how such a small amount would make any difference to performance (its 0.002% of the total weight!)


Wow, is that what this is all about? 5 ADDITIONAL pounds of weight? Don't they want their boats to be lighter? (that was rhetorical)


Indeed. Proportionally speaking, it'd be like us putting a water bottle in a forward tramp pocket.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 03:14 PM

It's actually like the additional weight they accumulate due to wet gear during the race.

That said - it's the rulzes! It will be interesting to hear what becomes of this.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 04:05 PM

Maybe it was their Beer??

For after the races, on the ride home??

It makes no sense otherwise, and I highly doubt it had any real effect on their performance.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 04:35 PM

Why??

No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.

If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...

I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.
Posted By: Luiz

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it...


Arguably the best place would be half in the bows and half in the transoms. This would increase moment of inertia and reduce pitching.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it...


Arguably the best place would be half in the bows and half in the transoms. This would increase moment of inertia and reduce pitching.


It would decrease the frequency of the pitching but increase the distance it pitches - which may not be favorable. The traditional school of thought is that it's better to reduce the depth of the pitching since the waves are going to help dictate the pitch regardless of weight position. It doesn't fit 100% of the situations, but I have understood that it is generally better to have the weight centralized.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
I have understood that it is generally better to have the weight centralized.


And low
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why??

No reason... I think they had to add weight... so.. somebody thought that this was the best place for it... just NOT the approved location for corrector weights. I think it is just the culture of sailing these days... Push the rules... wait for the protest... deal with the consequences.

If given three choices... Cheating, Stupidity, or Sabotage...

I vote stupidity..A culture that agrees.. this is a trivial rule, it won't make a difference in performance. Therefore... Push it.


I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.


Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 07:41 PM

The report of the measurers on the case AC45.

http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/2013/...ori-sul-caso-ac45/#.UgU0HGtvifc.facebook
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 08:56 PM

Quote
I don't see a culture here that thinks the rules are meant to be broken. That's cheating, and stupid.


The culture is... We bend the rules a bit...we don't break them... because we are special!

So, Now... we have to add weight.... Where? epoxy plus lead... or for the last boat... just lead shot... to the king post. OR where the rule tells us... When your special.... you bend the rules... AND GET AWAY WITH IT....

OOOPS!

(I want to know if the youth teams were putting the boats together and the free lead shot fell out of the king post tube with balls everywhere starting the WTF is this about questions.)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 09:56 PM

Sail Racing Magazine hints of unconfirmed firing of two AC syndicate CEO's. Oh my!!

more editorial on 'Ballastgate'

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/13/13 10:02 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/14/13 08:42 PM

Watch This!

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/14/13 08:43 PM

Gearing up for some RedBull Youth AC action

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/14/13 08:44 PM

Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/14/13 11:40 PM

Interesting interview. Ellison needs to lay off the Botox.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 12:06 AM

That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 12:17 AM

Um, I don't really know how to say this, John, but I read your reply on my phone without being able to see the left side of the screen (to see who posted it), and and disturbing as it was, I could only think of ONE person who possibly could have written that to such a level of detail, and I was right...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
That's a cucumber red laser peel with a vitamin B12 hot sand scrub in a superoxengenated hyperbaric chamber. The whole thing is done ON the equator to reduce magnetic interference. I think it looks very natural.



hahahah.... the dude's 68. There's no harm in having a few experience wrinkles on your bow.
Posted By: brucat

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 01:51 PM

I actually saw the LE interview overnight on TV when my two-year-old was keeping me up. He's definitely headed in the direction of Joan Rivers.

More importantly, did he really have to say that no one will get killed on a 45???

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 02:38 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 03:16 PM

Press conference starts in about an hour.
RE: LV finals
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 04:36 PM

conference live now
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/15/13 06:57 PM

Racing for the finals starts Saturday.
Be prepared. Only one day is live on YouTube.
Currently, we can watch it live with the APP, but I'm wondering if NBC will try to kill that also.
Broadcast Schedule LV Finals

or here. (click on the North America tab)
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 01:46 PM


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 01:46 PM

Dean Barker on sailing upwind
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 01:47 PM

Sirena and Barker share their views on Oracle investigation.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.

Dean wouldn't lie to us would he?
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 05:47 PM



I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.


+1
The gains upwind would have been negated downwind anyway. Besides, it's MORE weight.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


I'm still surprised a little at the amount of bravado expressed over that 5 lbs of weight. I mean, it's conceivable that the modification was made at a very low level in the team by someone that didn't understand the impact on the rules. It's also possible that it wasn't communicated/approved by anyone above these guys that should have known better. I suppose the court of public opinion is easier to sway if you are bold and a little over the top with your proclaimed supposition.


It doesn't make sense for RC, LE and crew to risk their reputation and respect of their competitors on a silly 5lbs inconsequential weight.

The only way I can see this being intentional is if RC wanted to do something JUST like this to get the competitors focused on things other than the competition. Rope-a-dope.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 11:24 PM

Here ya go.

Coutts exonerated
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 11:26 PM

Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/16/13 11:34 PM

Outside Magazine Article
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 12:45 PM

Vid with both OR boats. OR2 sporting new fairing under the jib and shorty pole.

http://vimeo.com/72504298
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 01:36 PM

Foiling gybes are definitely NOT smooth - thats for sure. I really hope that OTUSA is sandbagging.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 02:20 PM

How much time on the water did Oracle lose? about 2 months?? That seems to be the amount of skill /time on the water behind they are.

Do they have a design ace in the hole to make up for the loss???
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 04:21 PM

Live feed for the Defender Trials starts in less than two hours.
Live Youtube channel

Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Foiling gybes are definitely NOT smooth - thats for sure. I really hope that OTUSA is sandbagging.


The guy that took that vid said the wind was 6-12 knots during the first few gybes. The other thing is make sure which boat your looking at. Focus on OR2. Easy to tell now by the sprit.
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 06:49 PM

Its hard to know conditions at the time to make that call. I saw ETNZ not look great foiling a week or two ago due to blustery conditions.

I think they'll be fine.


Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:12 PM

Well, I think that's the first time we've seen a race postponed due to the high wind limit.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:16 PM

When I click on the Youtube link at the AC page, for the LV finals, it says not available in your country. Really?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:19 PM

Dagger board damage right before the start is not good for LR.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:20 PM

Hacksaw! This is interesting . . .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:21 PM

Like I mentioned before, it's live via the APP. YouTube is blackout in North America.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:26 PM

Tawd,
virtual eye is good and you get commentary and all mics.
http://americascup.virtualeye.tv/
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:46 PM

Thanks for the link Philip. So when is the TV broadcast?
Posted By: bacho

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:47 PM

The audio on my iPad seems to be messed up, the noise of the boats/crews/announcers all at once. Sounds horrible.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:49 PM

OMG. NZ two men overboard
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:54 PM

What an incredible stuff at over 40 knots!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:55 PM

Great race to NOT be able to see. GEEEEEZZZ.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Thanks for the link Philip. So when is the TV broadcast?

6pm Eastern
3pm PT
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 08:59 PM

This race could be called to wind, which would save LR butt.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:00 PM

You won't get tired of watching that stuff at 40.7 knots. It's going to be all over the networks and media.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:01 PM

Thanks again. Can't find a droid app.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:01 PM

I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:03 PM

go to the play store
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:04 PM


Android APP
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:09 PM

Holy mother that video is incredible. Goes to show how intelligent that upper wind limit is. Classic bare away stuff.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:11 PM

LR Bravo flag
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:14 PM

Check THIS OUT!
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:16 PM

Looks like NZ mistakenly had the leeward board trimming aft driving the bows down.

Who wants to go back to monos now?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:18 PM

LR might be in luck for Race 2, wind is currently exceeding the limit.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:18 PM

The cable guide lists it as "Yachting" . Some things never change.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.


"This app is incompatible with your device."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:24 PM

Tawd,
The app required 4.0 and up. That old StarTac flip phone ain't gonna cut it.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:30 PM

I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:30 PM

It official. Race 2 postponed until another day. It's LR's lucky day.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 09:33 PM

WATCH THIS!!
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 10:00 PM

That was awesome!
One of the crewmembers just fell through the front carbon fairing!
Posted By: itbvolks

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/17/13 11:46 PM

Simply stunning. Ever time I see mono-hull replays, I'm stunned how boring things look compared to what we have today.

Gotta give the kiwi's credit - knocked down but the whole crew was there to pick them back up. That was some serious sketchy sailing.
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:12 AM

LOL, So much for the perfect boat with the perfect crew. I think LR was going to protest the removal of the fairing. Quite a bit of change from when measured in.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:21 AM

How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:23 AM

Classic bow stuff to the mast!

Been there, done that, but not while going 40+kts.

It makes me feel better to see the pro's stuff it too.

Now, can both boats get fixed in time for tomorrow's race?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:26 AM

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:31 AM

" Two minute later the Italians issued a protest, however at the time of posting this article, we had no confirmation why, what for, or who against. "
Article
Update: Protest withdrawn.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:35 AM

Podcast Episode 22 - James Spithill & Ben Ainslie
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:45 AM

42.9 knots then bam

"The capsize cause seemed to be related to a daggerboard angle issue, or rudder trim issue - given that the boat was already up and foiling and sailing fast in the bearaway"
Posted By: Timbo

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:51 AM

Do you know if there are scuppers on the side of the hulls? Right after the stuff, just after the two guys fall overboard, you'll see water pouring out of the hull from what looks like 2, two foot long scuppers.

At first I thought each crew had put his foot through the hull and that was water pouring out of the hull, but after watching the replay several times, it must be scuppers, but where is the water coming from?

I thought any water above and between the hulls would go straight down through the fishnet tramp. So where is all that water that's pouring out of those slots coming from?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 12:53 AM

Ironically the 'Weapon of Choice' of the International Jury in their pursuit of Oracle Team USA is the so-called 'Dalton Clause'

Gladwell's comments on Ballastgate

more here.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:01 AM

Audio interview as Barker explains the stuff .
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:13 AM

Yes Tim, those are drains to the **** that are recessed in the hull. Without the drains they would be a giant bathtub with grinding stations.
Originally Posted by Timbo
So where is all that water that's pouring out of those slots coming from?

Really?
Posted By: P.M.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:27 AM

I created a screenshot from the video (helicopter cam)


Attached picture clip_image0026669.jpg
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 06:49 AM

How Aussies saw the incident :
Posted By: catman

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!


Awesome. Looks like DB doing everything he can to get his boat going while OR calmly sails away.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.


I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!



Awesome. Looks like DB doing everything he can to get his boat going while OR calmly sails away.


I had the same thought. "I thought that ETNZ was supposed to be the faster, more stable boat."

They're even to windward and their up and down like a carousel horse.


ETNZ Sockpuppet response: "But but but!! RUDDERS!!!!!"

:rolleyes:
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by P.M.
How 'bout a couple of egos going at it.
Love it!


I don't see a speed issue with Oracle in that video. Looks promising.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.
Posted By: Jake

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 02:23 PM

For anyone else interested in tuning in, NBC Sports channel (relatively new channel) is broadcasting the races. As Todd pointed out, it's under "Yachting" (please raise your pinky finger and take a sip of your tea just prior to enunciating this word with a delightful hint of a British accent...when will they ever learn that they not only need to change the boats, but they need to be careful with what they call this stuff to make it exciting). The replays are usually available on youtube about an hour after the scheduled broadcast.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.


I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.


I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't know...That was a serious auger in. I don't think Oracle would have fared any better in that situation. The bows likely would have gone in deeper. That was pretty messed up. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't wreck worse than they did. It will be interesting to see how much of it they get put back together today.

As a side note; can you IMAGINE the strain put on that rigging to hold up that 13 story wing as the boat went from 40 to 5 in about 1.5 seconds? I think one of the saving graces is that they trim so close when they are going downwind. If the sail had been trimmed more loosely it would have become a barn door when the wind quickly shifted aft and would have increased the pitching moment.


I was watching the broadcast on dvd and after the first race they showed both Oracle boats doing a practice race when the LV race was canceled because too much wind. Looks like ETNZ could have used the bigger rudder elevators that they protested.


The Oracle practice race was run before the LV finals and broadcast on Youtube live. Pretty smart of them to do that to have filler for postponements and such. First broadcast race and exactly what people complained about, happened. Big delays ,then cancellation.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by P.M.
I'm not sure Oracle would have recovered with their lower bow volume.


See I had the opposite opinion.

I see a boat with huge bows stuffing it and stopping. This is ok on our small beach cats when all we need to do is let go of every sheet on the boat to unload the rig, but on a wing sailed boat controlled by hydraulics I think its a problem. Remember how when the Extreme 40's used to pitchpole every other minute? Speaking to the sailors on those boats, it was because to sheet the main on those things you had to pump a handle and to let it out you hit a big red button... and it let the main out SLOOOOOW ressulting in pitchpoles that to us look completely avoidable.

On Oracle, the hulls will certainly drag the boat but I don't think you'd see the same kind of dead-stop you saw on the ETNZ boat.

I could be wrong, but after sailing a boat with big bows now for a couple years I can tell you that they help, and hurt.


I don't think there is enough difference in hull width between oracle and TNZ for that to make much difference. They're different, but both still fairly fine in the scheme of things. Especially compared to a N-20 deck and hull shape. More like the difference between 2 current, different manufacturer, F-18s.
The wing is trimmed by a winch that is controlled hydraulically ,so the control is just like any winch on any boat, sans winch handle. The trimmer, in this case Glenn Ashby, controls the amount and speed of trim or ease with the sheet, instantly,i.e the hydros spin the winch not pull the sheet like an Extreme 40. Wing loads are considerably lower than soft sail loads also, for what it's worth.
The announcer was talking about foil angle to far back. Watch the replay, yes,the top is back but that makes the bottom of the foil(under the boat) forward (it pivots on the bottom of the trunk) which gives positive aoa/lift. Pure power caused that problem, coupled possibly with loss of rudder foil ( negative aoa). Not sure Deano could have done anything with the helm to stop it.Like Ken Read said, "Nature of the beast".
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.


I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.

Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.

I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed - 08/18/13 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I didn't upgrade to the StarTac yet.
2.3.4 ain't gonna cut it.



I might be able to hack the app for you Todd. With the new google play services (as long as you had that updated on your phone - should have happened automatically) then you can do anything a 4.0 phone could do. I'll just check the build prop file in the APK and change it for you. You'll have to sideload it but I'm sure you can figure that out.

That'd be awesome, but I think you may be over estimating my computer skills. I ended up looking at some new phones last night but don't see anything that makes me want to dump my Droid X yet. God forbid I have to get an I-phone.


Jesus dude that phone is older than you are.

Droid Ultra Maxx would work just fine for you, or the new Moto X if you want to keep a smaller device footprint. Both just came/are coming out soon.

I'd steer away from the Moto X since a lot of its just controlled by talking to it, and I don't think a machine can decipher what it is that comes out of your mouth :P


You know me, I hate change.
I was hoping to get away from Motorola phones because of their penchant for keeping them locked after they stop supporting the platform ( sounds familiar maybe even N-20esque) but if that's what there is then so be it. Appreciate the advice. I've only been due for an upgrade (2 yr contract up) for about 6 months. I actually want the GzOne commando ,but apparently it's got battery and glitch issues.