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Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate:

Posted By: Timbo

Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 06:00 PM

Here's the situation: Leeward gate rounding, looking downwind, at the gate, let's say we have three spinnaker cats coming in from the right, staggered and slightly overlapped on the port layline, and one other boat coming in on the starboard layline, on starboard gybe, but he's much further back than the first 3 who are coming in on port.

Got the picture?

Now the fist three boats are all snuffing, gybing and rounding the right hand mark as the starboard gybe boat comes in, yelling STARBOARD! He continues into the lee of leader of the pack of three rounding, going right, and takes all 3 up into each other, tapping the first boat, and causing each in turn tap each other, as he basically luffs them all up into each other up aginst the mark.

He could have easily avoided any collision, by gybing and rouding the left mark (looking downwind) but chose instead to cary on into the three others rounding the right mark.

My question is; does a starboard boat coming into the gate last, have any 'rights' over the boats in front of him, when they are all inside the 2 boat lenght circle and rounding the mark?

Luckily it was light air, speeds were slow so there was no damage, but I thought once you were inside the 2 boat length circle and rounding the mark, the whole "STARBOARD" thing was out the window?

Any rules experts out there have an answer as to who has right of way while rounding at a gate?

Thanks.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 06:42 PM

I won't claim to be a rules expert. Certainly some on this form are more experienced than I. Anyway, there isn't quite enough information in your post to answer the question but I'll point a few things out:

1) Its now a 3 boat length circle. Length of the circle is defined by the first boat to get to the circle IIRC, so if a N20 gets there first the circle has a radius of 60' vs. 54' for a F18.

2) A proper race course has the gates separated by more than 6 boat lengths to avoid confusion.

3)) The rules are all defined based on how the overlap was established. If the starboard boat coming in last wasn't overlapped with any of the port boats prior to the mark round she MAY not have room. Not very likely to be the case.

Forcing a collision is always poor seamanship, no matter who has right of way. It is likely that the starboard boat had a rule 14 violation. Still, it is the responsibility of all parties involved to avoid the collision.

Posted By: tback

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 07:45 PM

RULE 18.2 AND MARK ROOM

• New definition — Mark Room. A boat entitled to Mark Room gets room to sail to the mark and
then room to round on her proper course.

• Lock In/Lock Out provision same as in old rule — clear ahead at zone or overlapped at zone gets
Mark Room throughout her rounding even if overlap situation changes.

• An outside or clear astern boat at the zone is only required to give Mark Room (no change in
the right of way):

If the inside/clear ahead boat has right of way she can make a tactical approach.
Otherwise, she only gets room to sail to the mark.


• Doubt about overlaps resolved as in old Rule 18.



So, I'd say that If the Starboard boat WAS NOT at the 3 zone circle first she needed to give mark room -- but not as a tactical rounding.


Had the scenario been that they all wanted to round the left-hand mark ... I think that Starboard would have had an inside overlap AND been the right-of-way boat and would have been allowed mark room in a seaman like (tactical) rounding.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 08:38 PM

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins. However, if either boat passes head to
wind or if the boat entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, rule
18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.


If I am reading the situation correctly, the starboard boat is required to give mark room under rule 18.2(b). Remember that when sailing greater than 90 degrees from the wind, overlap applies between boat on opposite tacks.

Remember also that overlap is decided by a line parallel to the transom, so at the angles that catamarans sail downwind, boats in a significant area can be considered overlapped.

The starboard, outside boat is required to give room in this case. It is important to remember, however, that mark room is defined as:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

Therefore, when overlapped in the zone, the outside boat only has to give an inside boat room to sail to the mark, then proper course while AT the mark.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 08:42 PM

The starboard gybe boat was behind all 3 port boats but going faster and became overlapped, because he still had his spin up, as the 3 ahead were snuffing and rounding ahead of him, I don't know where he thought they could possibly go to get out of his way, not that they had to, but that didn't stop him from coming in and luffing the other 3 up into the mark and each other.

He became the outside boat in a pinwheel around the mark, yet he is supposed to give room to all 3 of the boats rounding inside him, right?


Edit, I was typing the above while Jeff was too, what Jeff posted above is what I thought, he was outside boat and had to give room, yelling Starboard at a mark with boats inside you rounding is not a free ticket to hit people.

I think the SSS had better have a "Racing Rules" clinic for their youth sailors...

The really stupid part of the situation was, all he had to do was snuff, gybe and round the left mark, alone, and sail away in clear air, leaving the 3 boat pinwheel in his wake. Instead, he became number 4 coming out, in dirty air. I don't know how he thought that would be faster!
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 09:15 PM

Glad to clear this up fully, thanks Jeff.

Timbo, that's not very surprising. From what I've seen the bigger yacht clubs with lots of coaching etc. often produce kids that may know the rules but go out and try to use them to their advantage rather than sailing fairly. Fortunately the cat sailing community does a good job of toning that down and teaching sportsmanship...one reason I'm racing cats and not a dinghy.
Posted By: TylerH

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 09:16 PM

Either way, we said starboard, then realized we had to give room, We gave PLENTY OF ROOM...

Here is the situation,
[Linked Image]
We are the Orange spin, We are already in trying to round and gave them room, but they took advantage and took too much room.

It turned into this,
[Linked Image]
Look how much room the 3 boats above us have, We got dinged up pretty bad by the blade even though it was light winds.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 09:35 PM

Tyler, the boat with the blue spin is right ON the mark, and there was not a full foot of room between each of the 3 boats inside you. Where exactly was the Blade supposed to go when you were luffing him into the two other boats above him? You didn't give any of us enough room.

You didn't get dinged up at all, but if you did, it was of your own doing when you luffed up into the Blade.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 10:58 PM

There are a number of comments I could make, but I'll stick to these:
  1. The original description of the incident does not match later descriptions and neither are consistent with the photos provided. The facts need to be determined before the rules can be applied.
  2. If there was contact resulting in damage, then there should have been a protest hearing at the event. What were the facts found and decision made at that hearing?
  3. I generally avoid making decisions on actual incidents without all the parties present. Small differences in the facts can completely reverse the outcome.
If someone would like to present a hypothetical situation, I'd be happy to help interpret the rules.

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
...kids that may know the rules but go out and try to use them to their advantage rather than sailing fairly. Fortunately the cat sailing community does a good job of toning that down and teaching sportsmanship...

There is absolutely nothing unfair or unsportsmanlike about using the rules to one's own advantage. Placing your boat in a tactically advantageous position is a legitimate part of the game.

On the flip side, I believe that expecting others to forgive a boat for breaking the rules is unfair and unsportsmanlike.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 11:31 PM

Let me guess..... no protest hearing was held?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 11:37 PM

I never heard anyone say "Protest" and no, there was no protest hearing.

In the first picture you see the 3 boats at the mark are on Port and the starboard boat (orange spin) is further behind on strbd. When the first 3 boats entered the 3 boat length circle, he was even further out.

In the second picture the 3 at the mark have all gybed onto starboard and are rounding, as the 4th boat comes in and starts luffing them all up into each other. Remember, this is a gate, there is another mark to the right, just out of the picture, not that that matters.

There was a small amount of tapping of hulls, side to side, no damage that I could see. At what point should the outside boat stop luffing the inside boats?

After he taps them, or before?

Now he's claiming he did give them plenty of room to round bu they were taking advantage?

As you can see by the picture, not enough room was given, or there never would have been any contact, right?
Posted By: tback

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/23/12 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42

On the flip side, I believe that expecting others to forgive a boat for breaking the rules is unfair and unsportsmanlike.

Regards,
Eric


Eric,

I suppose I'm guilty of premature forgiveness...

At the gate, we were overstood and coming in hot on Starboard with the spin up expecting to round the right-hand mark. F16 #10 had by now exited the gates heading up wind on port tack.

We hailed Starboard and it was necessary to alter course to prevent a collision. Given it was a youth sailor we let it go.
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:12 AM

Ok i was the skipper on this Boss Nacra F16 and first of all I was ahead from the getco, we had no overlap before the 3 boat lengths around the mark and I gave you guys tons of room even though I didn't have to.

First it says there must be an overlap before the 3 boat lengths around the mark, which there wasn't.

Second mark room say in a seaman like way, not your fastest way... You guys over took that and I still gave too much room and ended up getting hit.

Third since there was no overlap before the leeward mark I was starboard and none of you had any rights to even fit in.

Now one more question to someone that actually knows their rules unlike Timbo here, what would happen if they made an overlap to my stern before the 3 boat lengths, jw?

Also can I protest all three boats or who would it be?
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:23 AM


He broke a lot of rules

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b applies.
(b If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the
overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark room, she is not required to give it.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:24 AM

He should have luffed everyone until they were all disabled since no one racing had any business being out there without knowing the rules! You apparently also do not know that every time you go racing you make an implicit contract to know, obey, AND ENFORCE the rules which none of you did either (RRS Basic Principle p.2). Hard to obey and enforce what you don't know. Is it because none of you knew how to read? Not likely. Not enough time? Not likely since sailboat racing is very time intensive. Not motivated enough? Well maybe having your boats disabled will provide that needed push. The WHOLE point of the rules is to AVOID CONTACT! So, he should have stopped luffing BEFORE MAKING CONTACT! (O.K. rant over. I just get so tired of reading this pathetic kind of lame butt rule discussion here. Just get the rule book and read it - it is NOT that difficult.)
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:37 AM

Each of the 3 boats inside the pin wheel needed 10ft past the other boats bows to turn upwind, in effect that would be allowing minimum 10ft for 1st boat, then 10ft thereafter meaning 4th boat would be at least 40ft from mark to be close to legal and that is with 3 other boats doing it all perfect with disturbed wind for the second and third boats. The rules say you must allow for a seaman like manner so that is avoiding collision at all costs, you cannot just leave 1ft between boats in wind and waves, he is lucky the other boats chose to hit each other and not just sink the outside boat. A wiser skipper which hopefully he is now would slow down at the mark since he has approached from the perfect angle round up behind the inside boat with some speed and probably take a good apparent wind away from the mark on the perfect course instead of putting himself in such a poor position
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:39 AM

If there was no overlap at the zone, then the boats clear astern would have to give room no matter if an overlap later became established. The boats on port would also have to keep clear in accordance with their obligations under rule 10, but that is secondary in the incident being discussed.

As far as protesting, you would protest the boat to windward which you consider to be taking room they are not entitled to.

If I were the protest committee hearing the incident, I would likely dismiss the original protest and open a jury initiated protest with all boats involved as parties, allowing all testimony to be heard and hopefully figuring out what actually happened.

Without knowing how the overlap was established, making a judgement is very difficult.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:55 AM

I've posted bits of the new rules for you. As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:00 AM

Thank you Jeff for your advice, but Mike on the other hand I do know my rules.... I race Lasers and 420s too. I've dealt with watching videos on the racing rules for hours many numerous times. I just wasn't sure on who to protest, because it doesn't really state an incident like that very easily in the rules. Also I did no t hit anyone, his bow hit mine after giving him tons of time to maneuver. Also I would have slowed down and crept behind the inside boat, but it's kinda hard to do when you are in front of them at the time, before the whole incident.
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:08 AM

My mistake by the way I should have up held a protest on shore considering there is no way we overlapped considering it's from the end of the stern. Specially since catamarans don't go strait downwind. Check this website out it show's exactly how they have no room mark room
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:08 AM

The hardest part of holding a protest hearing is determing what actually happened ("finding the facts"). It's common for the parties and witnesses to give very different and often contradictory accounts of what occured. That's ok. Honest people can see the same incident differently and honestly tell different stories.

There have been several different accounts given here -- too many for me to give an opinion. One thing I can recommend though, is for people to review the definition of "overlap". The rules do not define overlap directly. Instead, they define "clear ahead" and "clear astern". If the positions of two boats are such that neither is clear ahead or clear astern, then they are overlapped.

Boats that sail very hot angles downwind, such as catamarans, can easily be overlapped on opposite tacks a long ways before reaching the zone.

I hope that helps,
Eric
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:17 AM

I'm just wondering if you click on that link above in my other comment, tell me what you guys think, I honestly am wondering if I was suppose to give room or not. Read it let me know, because I don't want this to happen at an actual big race!
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:23 AM

Overlap has no bearing in this discussion. Whoever is closest to the mark within the 3 lengths of their boat rule with any part of their boat has the rights if I get 57ft from the mark and any part of your 16ft boat is further than 48ft from the mark, I'm inside and you tried to round me up with no mark room you will pay for any damage to my boat. FDUB you are a danger on the course you nead to know the new rules not dinghy match racing pay attention to what I have said go and read the rules before you hurt someone or get yourself hurt.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:23 AM

You know your rules, huh? Your own testimony: "I just wasn't sure on who to protest" and "his bow hit mine after giving him tons of time to maneuver" argue against that assertion. Here is some advice: Always start with the boat that hit you. Not taking a penalty OR protesting in that situation also argues against your assertion and is unacceptable. You violated your FAIR SAILING (rule 2, page 3) agreement (as did at least one of your competitors).
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
...As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it

Be careful about paraphrasing the rules. When trying to simplify them, it's easy to get it wrong. In a mixed fleet, the size of the zone may vary when considering the relationships of different pairs of boats. It's incorrect to say that port and starboard have no meaning in the zone.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Also can I protest all three boats or who would it be?

A boat may protest any boat she believes has broken a rule. If that rule is in part 2 (When Boats Meet), the protesting boat must have been involved in or have seen the incident. See rule 60.1.

Rules apply between pairs of boats. For example, if 4 boats are overlapped on the same tack, (1 being windward and 4 being leeward) and 3 does not keep clear of 4, then 3 breaks rule 11. If 2 did not keep clear of 3, she may have compelled 3 to foul 4. Likewise, 2 may have been fouled by 1. Ultimately, exoneration and penalty may pass all the way to the windward boat.

In theory, 4 could protest 3, 3 could protest 2, and 2 could protest 1. Because all protests concerned the same incident, protest committee should hear them all together. Circumstances are rarely ideal though. 4 could protest just 3, just 1, or 1, 2, and 3. If 4 protests 3, and no other protests are filed, then protest committee may (and probably should) protest 1 and 2. That way all the boats involved are parties, have the right to be present, and may be penalized.

I hope that helps,
Eric
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
Overlap has no bearing in this discussion. Whoever is closest to the mark within the 3 lengths of their boat rule with any part of their boat has the rights if I get 57ft from the mark and any part of your 16ft boat is further than 48ft from the mark, I'm inside and you tried to round me up with no mark room you will pay for any damage to my boat. FDUB you are a danger on the course you nead to know the new rules not dinghy match racing pay attention to what I have said go and read the rules before you hurt someone or get yourself hurt.


Jeff,

What new rules are you referring to? Overlap certainly is important in this situation. If an overlap existed at the zone, then the inside boats were entitled to room at the mark. If FDUB was clear ahead at the zone, then the boats inside at the mark were not entitled to room.

Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
You violated your FAIR SAILING (rule 2, page 3) agreement (as did at least one of your competitors).

No rule requires a boat to protest. A boat does not break rule 2 simply by neither protesting nor taking a penalty. A breach of a rule requires special circumstances to elevate it to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:10 AM

To further explain, if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights and sets the length of the 3 boat zone. It is a very good rule change it allows different size boats the safety needed on the course. If a 8ft BIC open with a small kid comes to the mark from an odd direction against a whole fleet of F18's but is rounding the mark the correct way. The mark rights circle will be 24ft and everyone must give that boat rights. But if the F18 gets to 54ft before the BIC gets to 24ft then the F18 has the rights. I'm obviously quoting an improbable race scenario here so don't jump on me I'm just trying to get the new rule accross
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
I'm just wondering if you click on that link above in my other comment, tell me what you guys think, I honestly am wondering if I was suppose to give room or not. Read it let me know, because I don't want this to happen at an actual big race!


FDUB, it's hard to say without knowing exactly how the situation developed.

What I believe happened, is a situation very similar to the first picture in your link, except with the three boat on port and you on starboard with a starboard rounding. With the angles spinnaker cats sail on downwind legs, there is a good chance that the line drawn abeam of the aftermost point of your hull would include the pack of three boats when you reached the zone, just as in the picture. If that was the case, you would owe those boats room.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say, and I'm not trying to accuse anyone, just trying to answer the questions!
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
To further explain, if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights and sets the length of the 3 boat zone. It is a very good rule change it allows different size boats the safety needed on the course. If a 8ft BIC open with a small kid comes to the mark from an odd direction against a whole fleet of F18's but is rounding the mark the correct way. The mark rights circle will be 24ft and everyone must give that boat rights. But if the F18 gets to 54ft before the BIC gets to 24ft then the F18 has the rights. I'm obviously quoting an improbable race scenario here so don't jump on me I'm just trying to get the new rule accross


Where is this rule coming from?

Here is the 2013-2016 version of rule 18.2:
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark- room, she is not required to give it.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
... if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights ...

That is not correct. The scenerio in question has catamarans sailing hot downwind on opposite tacks towards the same mark. If two boats are sailing 30-45 degrees off the true wind on oppposite tacks, then they are most likely overlapped. In that case, when they reach the zone, the outside boat must thereafter give the inside boat "mark-room" under RRS 18.2(b). It is not a matter of "the first boat has all the rights".

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by JeffS
...As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it

Be careful about paraphrasing the rules. When trying to simplify them, it's easy to get it wrong. In a mixed fleet, the size of the zone may vary when considering the relationships of different pairs of boats. It's incorrect to say that port and starboard have no meaning in the zone.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee


G'day Eric I think it is great to have a discussion about something like this where everyone has a firm opinion and only one can come out right as we need to be clear on this. I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack. The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved
Here is the link I'm working off
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-%5B13376%5D.pdf
If you can give me an example where I am wrong I would not be disappointed I would consider myself better equipped to race
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:30 AM

Joe, what you have to look at is "what is my fastest course?" Looking at the pics it seems the breeze wasn't really on, and it was shaping up to be crowded on the left gate (always refer to right and left sides of the course as though looking upwind to avoid confusion). Crowded AND the outside of the pinwheel, so lots of extra distance sailed IF you got through clean, which you didn't. Nobody did. Bail right, slow down to make the gybe on the black kite if you have to, give in to win. Odds are, you'd have sailed away from the yelling, slow pinwheel hung up on the other gate.

edit: which i THINK was Tim's original point...
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack.

The RRS 2013-2016 have had several changes. That includes rewriting of the definition of mark-room and some tweaking of rule 18. Rule 18.2(b), however, has not changed. In what rule do you find "rights in order"? In the previous rules (2005-2008), if a rule of Section A or Section B conflicted with Section C (e.g. rule 18), then the A/B rule didn't apply. That meant that there were times that rule 10 could switch off. That confused a lot of sailors, so ISAF took that out of the current (2009-2012) rules. Rule 10 applies throughout mark roundings -- the starboard tack boat's actions may, however, be limited by rule 18. A port-tack boat entitled to mark-room may also be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (see RRS 18.5 or RRS 21 in the upcoming rules).

Quote
The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved

There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Joe, what you have to look at is "what is my fastest course?" Looking at the pics it seems the breeze wasn't really on, and it was shaping up to be crowded on the left gate (always refer to right and left sides of the course as though looking upwind to avoid confusion). Crowded AND the outside of the pinwheel, so lots of extra distance sailed IF you got through clean, which you didn't. Nobody did. Bail right, slow down to make the gybe on the black kite if you have to, give in to win. Odds are, you'd have sailed away from the yelling, slow pinwheel hung up on the other gate.

edit: which i THINK was Tim's original point...


Yes, that was my exact point, thank you very much John. To Joe, do you think I intentionally tapped you, as if I could have not? You gave me no other choice, but if it makes you feel any better, I also had to go up and hit Karl above me, to avoid T-Boning you really hard.

No matter who's on "STARBOARD!!" the more important rule is, don't hit anyone, or cause others to do so. You had plenty of clear water below you and could have given us all room to round. What were you thinking? All 3 of us would just vanish, because you were on Starboard?

But as John stated, the 'faster' way, would have been to round the other gate pin and sail away in clear air, vs. ride the pinwheel around in dirty air, then suffer for the rest of the leg with 2 F16's and an F18 (pink spin) sitting on you. In very light air, clear air is king.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by JeffS
I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack.

The RRS 2013-2016 have had several changes. That includes rewriting of the definition of mark-room and some tweaking of rule 18. Rule 18.2(b), however, has not changed. In what rule do you find "rights in order"? In the previous rules (2005-2008), if a rule of Section A or Section B conflicted with Section C (e.g. rule 18), then the A/B rule didn't apply. That meant that there were times that rule 10 could switch off. That confused a lot of sailors, so ISAF took that out of the current (2009-2012) rules. Rule 10 applies throughout mark roundings -- the starboard tack boat's actions may, however, be limited by rule 18. A port-tack boat entitled to mark-room may also be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (see RRS 18.5 or RRS 21 in the upcoming rules).

Quote
The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved

There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric


The rules state that as you enter the three boat length circle around the mark you establish your position as long as you sail in a seaman like manner on a proper course and that would mean rounding the buoy.
Heres another reason FDUB mucked up he didn't come close to allowing enough room for the inside cats to round in a seaman like manner
As far as proper rounding room goes if you or your tiller hits the mark you must do a circle as it's part of your boat, so my interpretation is if I am inside boat against the mark you must allow me to keep my bows on their current course until the rear of my centreboards is past the mark as I cannot roundup sooner without hitting the mark, furthermore you must allow my tiller to be fully extended and me to be on the wire if I need to for proper seamanship, so the inside area I need to round a mark correctly is much bigger than a dinghy sailor would anticipate. In proper wind a correct rounding could see me on the wire at the rounding adding just under 6ft to the width on my cat so you need to allow me 14ft from the mark in width with my head nearly touching the mark and about 11ft of length infront of the mark as I go round.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:01 AM

Wow, a little too much emotion here guys. It's really hard to follow the story and find facts with everyone screaming and calling one another names.

I have to agree with Eric and Jeff D. that there are conflicting stories and without a protest, it would be difficult to get to the bottom of this.

Having said that, I totally agree with Jeff D. above. Go to the linked website and save that first picture. Open it in Paint (or equivalent) and do a Flip Horizontal. That will give you a rough idea of what it sounds like the boats looked like coming into the left gate (it's basically a mirror image of what is shown in that link of the right gate mark rounding).

The picture of the actual incident in this thread seems to confirm that the boats were probably in roughly that arrangement when the first one got to the zone. If STBD were further behind, that just solidifies the fact that all of the other boats were overlapped inside of her. (Note, even if the port boats were not overlapped with one another, they are all overlapped inside of STBD). If STBD were further ahead when she entered the zone, she would have been gone before the others got there.

JeffS: You have a lot going on in your posts, but just to clarify, this is already in the current book:
Zone (definition) The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

As an aside, I sit on protest committees for all levels of events, kids through adults, cats and monohulls. One common theme is that the higher the event level, the higher the expectation of the sailors abilities to handle their boats correctly (and less room needs to be given for the same situation). The key terms are promptly and seamanlike. If a boat (at any level) waits to respond, she's out; but a new sailor may legitimately need more time to complete a maneuver. The gray area is seamanlike.

Hope this helps.

Mike
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:03 AM

Yes, I wrote rule 2 when I meant rule 3 which says in part "each competitor agrees to be governed by the rules" and as I already pointed out the Basic Principle on page 2 of the rule book is that "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty or retire." We see way too many incidents like this w/o either protests or penalty turns and boats being sailed like bumper boats. This Basic Principle is written on page two of the RRS to emphasize its importance; so while racers may not be breaking a numbered rule by not protesting, it may be even worse... they are breaking the basic principle that we all agree to when we race. I know this is important to you; shouldn't it be important to every racer?
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:09 AM

Rule 61.1 "A boat intending to protest shall always inform the boat other boat at the first reasonable opportunity." That would be on the water right after the foul and include the hail, "protest".
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:20 AM

Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:37 AM

I am really trying to understand this, is there any reason that anyone can post where all cats on the same tack at the rounding mark sailing in a seamanlike manner can be pushed up onto each other by the outside boat? except to avoid collision which would make it the outside boats fault
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!


Well, it's certainly not intuitive, which is why most people get it wrong until they get it drilled into them at a rules seminar (that linked drawing usually does the trick), or deals with it in a protest.

Realistically, a boat a mile away has an inside overlap that doesn't matter, because the STBD boat would be long gone by the time he gets there. It only really matters for the closer boats.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!


I fill freely admit I screwed that one up when I first started sailing boats that sail hot angles downwind!
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 01:12 PM

Read above. The rules are always a 1 boat vs. 1 boat situation. Effectively the 1st boat inside has room at the mark, the 2nd boat has to let them round in a seamanlike manner, and so on down the line. This means the outside boat can't force a collision, has to let the other boats round quickly-not tactically advantageous, if you look at the photo I don't think anyone was breaking this, no one was trying to go wide and tight at the mark. Still the outside boat broke rule 14. And its also pretty clear that they don't understand the rules fully, nor have a complete understanding of how to handle a spinnaker boat at a mark rounding. You don't play bumper cars with $80K in boats.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 02:05 PM

There is no doubt in my mind that Starboard was overlapped with all three port boats. I have no idea on if the port boats would be overlapped with each other. It comes down to if Starboard gave the inside boats room and time to round in a seaman like manner.

I'll go further and say that a single handed boat needs a lot more room to turn a mark in a seaman like manner. All boats are not equal. It's damn hard to jibe, take a chute down and turn the mark at the same time single-handed. What is seaman like at a Club race is not nessessarily seaman like at a Nationals. The playing level changes.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:00 PM

Did the Falcon with the black spin (with the gold/yellow falcon on it) come up hard, cross all the transoms and come away inside. If so, that is what JW means by "give in to win" ....
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:22 PM

I think that the Falcon (Black spin with gold logo) probably just drove around that parking lot of boats...

Posted By: tshan

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:38 PM

Looks like a missed opportunity. Hard to tell by the pictures if they had room to get insde there or not OR if they could get there without killing all their momentum in light air.

How long did it take the pinwheel to circumnavigate that mark? Been there before myself....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 03:48 PM

Quote
There is no doubt in my mind that Starboard was overlapped with all three port boats. I have no idea on if the port boats would be overlapped with each other. It comes down to if Starboard gave the inside boats room and time to round in a seaman like manner.


Exactly.... Now Seaman like is the issue. Seaman like is NOT necessarily FAST, NOT TACTICAL (enter wide... come out close) Seaman like IS CONTROLLED.... SEAMAN LIKE IS NOT ARBITRARY!

Quote
I'll go further and say that a single handed boat needs a lot more room to turn a mark in a seaman like manner. All boats are not equal. It's damn hard to jibe, take a chute down and turn the mark at the same time single-handed. What is seaman like at a Club race is not nessessarily seaman like at a Nationals. The playing level changes.


NO... now you are on the slippery slope to NASCAR. You cannot go racing when you are expecting the other boats to make snap judgements on the skill level of the boats on their inside.

The single handed boat... should snuff their chute early....They then can control their boat in a seaman like manner in the rounding. It was their call to push the edge of their skill level. The other boats in the fleet EXPECT the single hander to behave just like any other 16 foot boat in the regatta.

Likewise, in a monohull regatta... if you are sailing shorthanded... and you flub the rounding and don't sail it in a seaman like way... any boats you foul are your fault. It was your call to mix it up. We just made this call a week ago when the skipper made the call to give up the lead and inside position BECAUSE THE CREW WAS GREEN and judged the risk as too high

Room is the next issue.... Assuming the three inside boats were rounding in a seaman like manner... collisions are not room. So... somebody was at fault. If boats one and two on the inside had adequate room to round in the conditions in a seamanlike manner and did not collide.... the question becomes... how much less room did boat three have....

Quote
There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric


The Base skill level of the fleet was NOT a consideration here... it was a club event.... No expectation that competitors were world class... (I am not even sure that you can make this claim about 1 through 100 at any catamaran world event... but that is another discussion)
The first point is... that Control of your boat is Seamanlike..

The second point is.... Protest Committees are the BEST WAY to sort out the game... The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact.

Quote
There was a small amount of tapping of hulls, side to side, no damage that I could see. At what point should the outside boat stop luffing the inside boats?

After he taps them, or before?


At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!



Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 06:00 PM

"The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact." and "At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!

Well put, Mark! There are 4 basic Right of Way (R-O-W) rules, 4 General Limitations rules, 2 rules at Marks and Obstructions, and 3 Other Rules in the R-O-W rules section. How can you not be motivated to learn these few rules before racing when the stakes can be so high? Who wants to risk their property to others so uninformed? It has never been easier (or cheaper) to get excellent rules instruction and learning aids. Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?
Posted By: tback

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?


Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn ... heck this post has 51 replies in just over 24 hours.

Perhaps this could be used as a "Teaching Moment".

Maybe we need to be proactive and have a weekly rules discussion ... a new topic each week with scenario's for us all to weigh in and debate.

With the speeds that cats approach each other it would be useful to have thought thru various scenarios previously (essentially increasing our experience thru virtual learning)



Posted By: pgp

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 06:53 PM

Is it worth noting one of those involved is still in high school?
Posted By: tshan

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 07:41 PM

Do you all read certain poster's posts in a voice all their own? When I read a Mark post, it sounds (in my head) like a teacher looking down on me while wagging his finger at me. I am not judging his content, just commenting on the little voice that goes off in my head as I read one of his posts.

BTW, he and Mark do make some good points about a lack of rules knowledge - which sadly, I may fall into the group that is less knowledgable of the rules as I should be.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 07:47 PM

Questions pertaining to the photos:

Still having trouble sorting out who is who:

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle - T-back?
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?

when we talk of "room", are we in consensus that regardless of skill, each F16 needed about 1.5 meters on each side of the hull to accommodate the hiking stick, trapeze, etc ("normal equipment")?

If the stb boat hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead) then none of this would have been an issue as it would have sailed on ahead of everyone, or would it have run out of clean air and stalled while the pinwheel overtook them?

If the port boats hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead), then the stb boat was to keep clear from entry to exit?

If the stb boat hit the ring first but overlapped by the port boat(s), who has "rights" then?

If the reverse is true (port boats hit ring first but overlapped by stb boat)?
Posted By: tback

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Questions pertaining to the photos:

Still having trouble sorting out who is who:

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle – Karl/Beth F18
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

when we talk of "room", are we in consensus that regardless of skill, each F16 needed about 1.5 meters on each side of the hull to accommodate the hiking stick, trapeze, etc ("normal equipment")?

Quote
If the stb boat hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead) then none of this would have been an issue as it would have sailed on ahead of everyone, or would it have run out of clean air and stalled while the pinwheel overtook them?

I think that is the consensus

Quote

If the port boats hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead), then the stb boat was to keep clear from entry to exit?

Yes … but clear ahead? I think a starboard boat fetching the mark would have had an overlap for some time… and thus your last question is pertinent.

Quote

If the stb boat hit the ring first but overlapped by the port boat(s), who has "rights" then?

Starboard should have clean air all the way as the port boats will need to gybe and round the mark … starboard will have all the momentum to stay clear AND ahead.

Quote

If the reverse is true (port boats hit ring first but overlapped by stb boat)?


Starboard stays clear And give mark room … Note that all the other port boats had overlaps so Mark Room for all
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 08:17 PM

I do a lot of judging, and would be happy to answer rules questions/put together some scenarios if there is an interest for that. Probably the best way to do it would be to have someone submit a scenario, then discuss the situation. We have had a couple rules talks in our fleet and I believe it has helped.

Remember that the new 2013-2016 rules go into effect on January 1, so if you plan to sail OCR, Tradewinds, etc. you need to look into the changes.
Posted By: tback

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 08:31 PM

That's awesome Jeff.

I have one, but I'll submit it over the weekend so we can hash this one out and beat it like a dead horse before we get into another.




Attached picture thumb-BeatDeadHorse.gif
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?

Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn ... heck this post has 51 replies in just over 24 hours.
Perhaps this could be used as a "Teaching Moment".
Maybe we need to be proactive and have a weekly rules discussion ... a new topic each week with scenario's for us all to weigh in and debate.
With the speeds that cats approach each other it would be useful to have thought thru various scenarios previously (essentially increasing our experience thru virtual learning)


This exact scenario was in Rick and Mary's Catamaran Sailor magazine not that long ago, every edition of the magazine has a teaching page and it only costs $20 a year for Americans including postage, I pay more because I'm on the other side of the world, they will post it anywhere and it's a great read.

I think it's been a productive thread where at the start some people said that the inside boats had all infringed and now there seems to be a concensus that the outside boat has infringed, that makes us all safer on the course because we are on the same page.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 10:51 PM

I think the only thing that has changed is that the outside guys stopped posting. I didn't see them agree but may have missed that?

Mike
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/24/12 11:51 PM

Comments like "Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn" and "Is it worth noting that one of those involved is still in high school?" are example of the culture of tolerance for rules ignorance.

Does anyone on this forum care how old the driver was who wrecked your boat because he lacked rules knowledge? We need to start telling each other that this is unacceptable instead of excusing it - this situation will not change if we keep allowing it and making excuses for it. We need to hold ourselves responsible and each other. Let's start now. No more excuses. It is NOT an attack to call someone out for racing under the influence of ignorance. It is NOT a bad thing to protest - it is our duty to know, follow, and ENFORCE the rules. Does anyone ever see referees on our race courses? That is our responsibility.

This is a particularly good time to start since there is a new four year period of the rules (as mentioned above), between the Summer Olympic games and the changes are relatively minor and already well explained online with free downloads.

Posted By: pgp

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:04 AM

I've no tolerance for intolerance or the ignorance that presumes intolerance is tolerable. Good bye.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
He should have luffed everyone until they were all disabled since no one racing had any business being out there without knowing the rules! You apparently also do not know that every time you go racing you make an implicit contract to know, obey, AND ENFORCE the rules which none of you did either (RRS Basic Principle p.2). Hard to obey and enforce what you don't know. Is it because none of you knew how to read? Not likely. Not enough time? Not likely since sailboat racing is very time intensive. Not motivated enough? Well maybe having your boats disabled will provide that needed push. The WHOLE point of the rules is to AVOID CONTACT! So, he should have stopped luffing BEFORE MAKING CONTACT! (O.K. rant over. I just get so tired of reading this pathetic kind of lame butt rule discussion here. Just get the rule book and read it - it is NOT that difficult.)


Mike you post very abrupt statements full of authority but this earlier post of yours in my opinion was totally wrong and showed no knowledge of the new rules have you changed your interpretation of the rules
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:19 AM

Well I feel like this situation has went too far. All I was wondering was honestly who had the right, now that I look at it we were overlapped and they did deserve mark room. But the fact was that I still gave room and they took a bit to much. It says seaman like way, not the fastest so that's all I'm saying but anyways sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't like when people post stuff on the internet being completely bias without the other's opinion. So that's my reason for being a little rude earlier.Thanks for the comments and advice everyone.

Goodnight
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Well I feel like this situation has went too far. All I was wondering was honestly who had the right, now that I look at it we were overlapped and they did deserve mark room. But the fact was that I still gave room and they took a bit to much. It says seaman like way, not the fastest so that's all I'm saying but anyways sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't like when people post stuff on the internet being completely bias without the other's opinion. So that's my reason for being a little rude earlier.Thanks for the comments and advice everyone.

Goodnight


It happens, we've all been there. Just learn from it an keep up the good work, we all want you guys to succeed!
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Well I feel like this situation has went too far. All I was wondering was honestly who had the right, now that I look at it we were overlapped and they did deserve mark room. But the fact was that I still gave room and they took a bit to much. It says seaman like way, not the fastest so that's all I'm saying but anyways sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't like when people post stuff on the internet being completely bias without the other's opinion. So that's my reason for being a little rude earlier.Thanks for the comments and advice everyone.

Goodnight

It hasn't gone too far, it's a great discussion that most people have learnt from except you. You still don't acknowledge that you erred because you didn't know the rules, you made 3 boats collide by yelling starboard in the 3 boat zone and luffing them up. Say sorry you have learnt or you will continue to look silly
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 12:53 AM

I learned that they did have the right for room around the mark which I did give them, but I didn't luff them up. After they continued to take too much I headed them up a bit. Collision only happened because he didn't head up a bit when I called for too much room and i gave him time to react.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:00 AM

When you head some one up you luff them up, you cannot head the boat above you up until he has room to head up or you are creating a collision, I have posted politely and repetatively with examples and facts but you still don't understand. You are either arrogant or a dimwit go and read the rules.
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:10 AM

Sorry that was a typo, but wow no need to be mean. I know my rules but exactly what you said unless he has room, which he did at the moment. You were not there so you don't know what happened, just saying.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:42 AM

Personally, I have learned from this discussion and it was worthwhile. I have had a very hard time learning all of the rules, reading them online and memorizing is pretty different than applying them on the race course when things are happening quickly.

It's extremely frustrating when someone walks up to me after racing and tells me I fouled them with no explanation at all. It's an attitude that is luckily not common in the local guys, but is not encouraging at all to newer guys.

Lots of people will scream to read the rules, but putting it all together on the water takes experience. I'm not asking for tolerance or ignorance, but take every opportunity to teach and help others learn.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:57 AM

Joe, the other lesson that was hard for me to accept; you can be 100% in the right, go to the room, and lose. Once you're in the room, you've surrendered control. That was what led me to be so proactive about avoiding a situation like the one you describe. As you can see in this thread, recollection is fallible, stories can be difficult to sort out, and perspective changes everything. Know your rules, sure, and like Mike says, be prepared to obey and enforce them. But also listen to the little voice in your head that says, "don't go in there, Skipper."
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
I learned that they did have the right for room around the mark which I did give them, but I didn't luff them up. After they continued to take too much I headed them up a bit. Collision only happened because he didn't head up a bit when I called for too much room and i gave him time to react.


Joe, I did go up, but only a foot, because that's all the room there was, until I was brushing up against the boat above me, who was right up against the boat above him, who was right up against the mark.

You needed to give all 3 inside boats room to round the mark, without hitting the mark, and some room between each of us (more than 12" would be nice) so we can all turn without rubbing each other.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Sorry that was a typo, but wow no need to be mean. I know my rules but exactly what you said unless he has room, which he did at the moment. You were not there so you don't know what happened, just saying.

We're nearly there FDUB I was trying to post a short response which was why it came out mean, here is your problem you say he had room so you hit him as you luffed him. You have now broken the main rule of seamanship you collided when you could have avoided, the sailor clearly had no space or would not have hit the boat inside him while you were hitting him this proves the no space rule. You should have given room, flew your red flag and demanded redress in the room after the race, you would then call your witnesses that would defend your protest, the other skippers would have called their witnesses, regardless of how this case came out there would have been a safe race with no damage to boats. I would be very surprised if your protest was upheld as I can't see the new catamaran sailor who yelled starboard when last in the 3 boat circle would be well equipped to work out how much space is enough as opposed to the 3 experienced sailors he forced to collide. I think it's wonderful that you are enthusiastic about cat sailing and would encourage you to consider sailing aggressively but courteously within the rules so that you are welcomed and encouraged on the beach instead of the alternative. Just acknowlege you were wrong by forcing a collision without making any excuses and you go back to rockstar
Posted By: FDUB flyers

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:03 AM

Thanks for the advice John, I understand what you're saying. Been there, done that! lol Trust me I would have gone behind the inside boat, but to make the mark I was going strait downwind so we went from being far ahead to being right in the middle with all them and I didn't want to loose more ground with the position I had at the moment. Things happen ya learn. I'm tired of arguing though, because no matter what I or anyone says in this conversation they will think they are right, so see ya later!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 04:57 AM

FDUB

What you should ALSO learn is what kind of evidence would you need to take into the protest room to make your case...

You assert that you gave all of the inside boats sufficient room to make a sea manlike rounding... you assert that in the conditions... that Jeff S's interpretation is not correct... You may be right.... So... Now what... Each post you make reveals more FACTS about your actions... and the inside boats actions.

So... your goal is to turn your assertions of what happened... into FACTS FOUND.... so you have to generate testimony that support your assertion and that turns them into facts...

OK... What questions are you going to ask each boat in the pin wheel.

What FACTS do you want the protest committee to agree to.

What witness's are you going to call to support those FACTS .... What do you expect them to testify to and What questions will you ask to get to FACTS.

What questions do you expect to answer about the FACTS...
What is your explanation for heading up... Luffing or sailing your proper course around the mark... (get a rule book here)

This PROCESS WILL BE CRITICAL once you are part and parcel to a collision with damages. Your insurance will ask for the PC report. So... getting Facts Found on site by third party sailors is really important in the future. It will cost you your deductible if you don't pay attention now and learn how to manage the situation.

If I were you.... I would ASK THE JUDGES on this thread....What questions they would be asking.... What FACTS they will be looking for...

THEN... you can worry about the rules and how they apply in this situation. THEN you can decide what further actions you could or should take.

So... don't stop now.... learn all you can from this incident... it's a very cheap education.

(PS.... Lots of people will benefit from your courage in pressing onwards)

Posted By: TylerH

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by JeffS
Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Sorry that was a typo, but wow no need to be mean. I know my rules but exactly what you said unless he has room, which he did at the moment. You were not there so you don't know what happened, just saying.

We're nearly there FDUB I was trying to post a short response which was why it came out mean, here is your problem you say he had room so you hit him as you luffed him. You have now broken the main rule of seamanship you collided when you could have avoided, the sailor clearly had no space or would not have hit the boat inside him while you were hitting him this proves the no space rule. You should have given room, flew your red flag and demanded redress in the room after the race, you would then call your witnesses that would defend your protest, the other skippers would have called their witnesses, regardless of how this case came out there would have been a safe race with no damage to boats. I would be very surprised if your protest was upheld as I can't see the new catamaran sailor who yelled starboard when last in the 3 boat circle would be well equipped to work out how much space is enough as opposed to the 3 experienced sailors he forced to collide. I think it's wonderful that you are enthusiastic about cat sailing and would encourage you to consider sailing aggressively but courteously within the rules so that you are welcomed and encouraged on the beach instead of the alternative. Just acknowlege you were wrong by forcing a collision without making any excuses and you go back to rockstar
Will you quit trying to argue? How can you say all 3 are experienced if you don't even know all the boats involved? Just because we made a mistake doesn't mean we don't know our rules.

Regards.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 01:36 PM

Mark has some good advice, which may help with the situation JDub describes above (being 100% right, or at least believing you are, and still losing in the room). This happens even with highly experienced PCs, because it all comes down to what (and how) information is presented in the protest hearing.

Here's another clue: You were not as far ahead as you think if you would up like that picture shows. Stop telling yourself that, because it's clouding your mind. And, even a boatlength or more lead isn't truly a lead if the positions work against you, especially at marks, and this is true on any type of boat.

Mike
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 02:52 PM

Ok we now know that the outside boat should have given room, well I think we have. I had an almost exact same scenario recently with a Mustoo skiff at a mark, we both arrived in the zone almost simultaneously and yes as he was the slower boat ( just ) I gave him room to round the mark.

But these skiffies are incrediably competative and he carried on straight ahead to ensure he slowed me down over the water enough to win on handicap ( yes these top class sailors do think of these things ). My question is at what stage can I just luff him up because he's being a prat or can he, as he did, just carry on straight ahead ( which incidentally let 3 other boats through behind.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:16 PM

Tack away - if he's looking back at you and holding a line to keep you pinned, it is time to go. Every second counts, especially on the boats catching you from behind - they still have kites up and are making up more than a second for every second that passes for you. As my pilots friends say, "ejectejecteject!"
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Ok we now know that the outside boat should have given room, well I think we have. I had an almost exact same scenario recently with a Mustoo skiff at a mark, we both arrived in the zone almost simultaneously and yes as he was the slower boat ( just ) I gave him room to round the mark.

But these skiffies are incrediably competative and he carried on straight ahead to ensure he slowed me down over the water enough to win on handicap ( yes these top class sailors do think of these things ). My question is at what stage can I just luff him up because he's being a prat or can he, as he did, just carry on straight ahead ( which incidentally let 3 other boats through behind.


By carry on straight ahead do you mean he luffed up to a close hauled course but continued to sit on your air, or he rounded the mark then continued to sail below a close hauled course? These are two different scenarios. In trying to answer your question we need several definitions and a couple rules:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat
shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.


From your description it sounds like there was an overlap when the first boat entered the zone. The outside boat was therefore required to give the inside boat room to sail to the mark, and her proper course while at the mark. It sounds like you gave the boat room to sail to the mark. Proper course is defined as A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.. Therefore, I believe the proper course of the inside boat is to round the mark, and promptly luff to a close hauled course, as this is the course she would sail in the absence of other boats. I also believe this allows the inside boat to make a tactical rounding, as that would be the course they would sail in the absence of other boats, and thus their proper course.

The term at the mark is slightly ambiguous, but I generally take it to mean when the hull is overlapped with the mark, and luffing up would create contact with the mark. It is un-seamanlike to luff a boat into a mark.

So, to answer your question, if the boat did not luff up to a close hauled after rounding the mark, I believe they would not be sailing their proper course (assuming the next mark is to windward), and would then be violating rule 11 as a windward boat.

Now, after you have left the mark, rules 11 and 17 govern the situation, and how the overlapped was established is important. The windward boat must always keep clear under rule 11, but rule 17 places restrictions on the actions of the leeward boat. If the overlapped was established from clear astern (likely as you said you were the faster boat) then a rule 17 overlap exists. In that case the leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course. The fact that it is the leeward boat's proper course is important here.

So, if after rounding the mark, and while the boats were overlapped, the windward boat failed to keep clear, causing the leeward boat to sail below their proper course, the windward boat is in the wrong.

Does that make sense?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:46 PM

One more thing to add, if the inside boat entered the zone on the opposite tack and then gybed, the overlap would be considered instantaneous. In that case, rule 17 would not apply after rounding the mark and the leeward boat could luff windward to head to wind.

A really good way to experience all of these scenarios is to go team race!
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:57 PM

An even better way to go learn these rules is to judge team racing, or at least fly the flags on a judge boat. Really really high level team racing requires all boats to have 110% certainty on the rules and the skippers will be calling overlaps in real time.

This thread has been valuable I think to all involved, and at least for me will prove beneficial this weekend while racing in a 40 boat fleet with pro's and automatic scoring penalties in place of doing turns.

I think it is very important to leave emotion out of rules discussions and most everyone on this thread is guilty of that to some extent, and I have been in the past. Learn the process, learn how to file a protest and don't be afraid to go in the room ever. Even if you loose a race you will gain valuable knowledge.

It also pays to know who the rules experts are in your fleet and ask them questions.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 03:58 PM

Quote
Therefore, I believe the proper course of the inside boat is to round the mark, and promptly luff to a close hauled course, as this is the course she would sail in the absence of other boats. I also believe this allows the inside boat to make a tactical rounding, as that would be the course they would sail in the absence of other boats, and thus their proper course.


Jeff..

I assume that by TACTICAL... you mean... enter wide come out close to the mark.

If So... I disagree with your interpretation.... My understanding is that Mark Room means that you sail directly to and round the mark in a seamanlike manner. ...

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?

Noting that TACTICAL ROUNDING is no longer a definition in the rules and used here as a description for enter wide... come out tight.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 04:02 PM

Hmmm that's a tricky one, but at least for the past 4 years under the current rules we've still been applying tactical and seamanlike in the room and on the water. Maybe I'm smoking crack but if 2 boats are overlapped on starboard, and the overlap was established by the boat originally clear astern, the inside boat has room to make a tactical rounding and the outside boat cannot luff her above her proper course. In team racing the otuside boat would gybe twice quickly to re-establish overlap but the inside boat can still make a tactical rounding, the outside boat now has room to take the inside boat head to wind past the mark and let their teammates slip by. That is my understanding, hopefully I'm not wrong...
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Therefore, I believe the proper course of the inside boat is to round the mark, and promptly luff to a close hauled course, as this is the course she would sail in the absence of other boats. I also believe this allows the inside boat to make a tactical rounding, as that would be the course they would sail in the absence of other boats, and thus their proper course.


Jeff..

I assume that by TACTICAL... you mean... enter wide come out close to the mark.

If So... I disagree with your interpretation.... My understanding is that Mark Room means that you sail directly to and round the mark in a seamanlike manner. ...

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?

Noting that TACTICAL ROUNDING is no longer a definition in the rules and used here as a description for enter wide... come out tight.


Mark, I think we agree. I believe you are entitled to room for a tactical rounding, but only while at the mark. Before you are at the mark, you only have room to sail to the mark, so sailing well wide in an effort to round "wide and tight" is not sailing to the mark. While at the mark, however, I believe you are entitled to room to make a smooth, fast rounding, because that would be your proper course in the absence of other boats.

In practice, that means the inside boat doesn't have to make a super aggressive turn at the mark which would stall their boat and kill speed- that is not their proper course.

Sam, I umpire a lot of team racing, it is a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. For me the highlights have been the High School Nationals, NEISA Champs, and Opti TR Nationals... the level of racing at all three was great!
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 04:31 PM

Quote
Just because we made a mistake doesn't mean we don't know our rules.


Sometimes you can know all the steps and still not know how to dance.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 04:33 PM

Wow! Great clarification Jeff..

Thank god... would have been a major faux pax to figure this out at the END of the quad.

Words in this game matter.... Now I really get why they were so keen on us sailors dropping the term TACTICAL rounding from our discussions of Mark Room. ...

One more regatta this weekend.... NOBODY should introduce the new rules (ERIC!) into this discussion until MONDAY... thank you very much.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 05:04 PM

Ah but sorry I forgot an important part here, the course was a 4 sided course with only one mark and to tack away I would have been going in totally the wrong direction. Would it have been better to do a 360 and hopefully force him to then tack around the mark, either way I was screwed by a slower boat and really not much that I could do about it, is there any point outside of the mark zone where sportsmanship comes into play ?
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 05:17 PM

The terms "tactical rounding" and "seamanlike rounding", like "barging", are often used when explaining the rules, but are not actually mentioned in the rules. They are convenient shorthand, but can lead to misconceptions about a boat's obligations at a mark.

Also, the definitin of "mark-room" has changed in the 2013-2016 rules. If we're going to discuss the limits of mark-room, we should decide which set of rules to use. The differences are slight, but real.

If people want to talk about how to present a case in the protest room, I'm willing to put together some pointers. That would probably best be done in a new thread, though.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 05:21 PM

Ah - tactically a tough spot. You're not going to out-point a mono after the rounding in that situation, and I see that tacking away wasn't an option. I imagine I would have footed hard to try and break through his lee - if there's a good bit of track left, you really need to get by him to make your rating work. If you're near the finish, you might not have any other option than to do what you did - lock in and hold with him as high as you can to keep ahead of the Pac Men behind you.

Sportsmanship? Supposed to be at the top of the pile throughout the course. He was being a sportsman, in a way, by using the tactical advantage to cancel out your speed advantage. That's a good opportunity for discussion at the bar later - "Hey, good job holding me off after that last mark. You know I would have gotten you if I broke free, right? Cheers - I'll get you next time."
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 05:24 PM

I have been keeping to the 2009-2012 rules. The changes in wording in the new rules are interesting- I haven't spent much time with the new rules because I don't want to confuse myself until I'm done judging for the fall.

I agree the change in the definition of mark room has real consequences!
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 06:36 PM

Eric, I'll bet another term you hear all the time is "overtaking" boat. While I know what the racers are saying I always try to get them to use the terms in the rule book that apply, like "clear ahead" and "clear astern" or "overlapped". Using terms to describe situations that are not used in the RRS almost certainly makes it more difficult for sailors to use and understand the rules. Some racers think that an "overtaking boat" has no rights even after establishing an overlap. As others have pointed out here already, using such terms is a loud and clear signal to judges that they are probably going to have to give this racer a needed rules education the hard way.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Ok we now know that the outside boat should have given room, well I think we have. I had an almost exact same scenario recently with a Mustoo skiff at a mark, we both arrived in the zone almost simultaneously and yes as he was the slower boat ( just ) I gave him room to round the mark.

But these skiffies are incrediably competative and he carried on straight ahead to ensure he slowed me down over the water enough to win on handicap ( yes these top class sailors do think of these things ). My question is at what stage can I just luff him up because he's being a prat or can he, as he did, just carry on straight ahead ( which incidentally let 3 other boats through behind.


In my reading of the rules, If that Musto skiff got in the 3 boat zone first he can hold you to his best seamanship (work out what that is yourself) in a 45ft circle around the mark, after that it is windward gives way to leeward and you take him up head to wind if you can but at no circumstance can you hit him to force him up. If you sail with him regulary show him your red flag before the mark or on the beach before you go out and tell whoever is watching the course to pay attention to your boat. That is all you can do.
An important part of the rules is that an F18 can have its bows 8ft out of the Musto skiffs 45ft circle but hold the rights as the F18 has a 54ft rights circle around the mark. This positioning is very difficult to prove off the water but if the smaller boat is level with the big boat then big boat holds the rights.
This could be a very difficult concept for dinghy sailors to understand especially if they know all the rules already like FDUB
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/25/12 11:41 PM

Keep in mind it's not the boat that reaches the zone first that has rights. If a boat hits the zone first, but there is a boat overlapped inside, the outside boat owes inside room.

Also, you can not take a boat head to wind if rule 17 is on.

Not sure why you would assume dinghy sailors have less rules knowledge, the boat you sail is pretty irrelevant.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 12:06 AM

Skiff sailors are the least likely to obey the rules. If a 15ft dinghy like the Musto described above is 53ft from the mark coming straight down and a F18 53ft from the mark is coming from wide, the F18 has established it's rights as per the rules, the dinghy must go behind the F18 unless the F18 is not sailed with proper seamanship.
The rules state you have established your position when you hit the zone, this is the hardest part of the rules because it doesn't matter if that Dinghy is going 5 times faster if he cannot round without affecting the F18 he must do a 360 or be disqualified. Just as the other ex dinghy sailor in this thread should be disqualified for saying he deliberately caused a collision with the inside boat and didn't do a 360 after he felt they had taken enough room.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 12:43 AM

In the case you are describing, the Musto may very well have rights if there is an overlap between the two boats when the F18 reaches the zone.

If no overlap exists, then you are correct in saying that the F18 does not owe room even if later an overlap is established.

It is also important to note that the penalty would be a two turns penalty (360 and 720 are no longer in the rules), unless the SIs amend the penalty to one turn.

I also don't understand the anti-dinghy sailor sentiment. I sail both cats and dinghies- there is zero difference.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:12 AM

Forget the negative dinghy thing, I've given examples for everyone of my opinions on rule interpretation. Using my last post as the example could you tell me your reason that if you were that dinghy you might not give way to me? I am not challenging here I am wanting it set in my head
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:27 AM

A good example is two boats approaching a leeward mark to be left to port. Both are on port, and an overlap exists between the two boats.
The leeward boat is slightly ahead, with the bow of the windward boat even with the leeward boat's shrouds.
The leeward boat reaches the zone first, which is defined as three of her boat lengths.

18.2(b) says:
If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

In this case then, the outside boat, despite reaching the zone first, owes the inside boat mark room.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:15 AM

Totally agree with that, in my above example theres two boats coming in on a roughly 90 degree seperation your in the dinghy, I'm on the F18 were same distance from the mark as much as you can tell on the water. Why would you not give way to me?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Eric, I'll bet another term you hear all the time is "overtaking" boat. While I know what the racers are saying I always try to get them to use the terms in the rule book that apply, like "clear ahead" and "clear astern" or "overlapped". Using terms to describe situations that are not used in the RRS almost certainly makes it more difficult for sailors to use and understand the rules. Some racers think that an "overtaking boat" has no rights even after establishing an overlap. As others have pointed out here already, using such terms is a loud and clear signal to judges that they are probably going to have to give this racer a needed rules education the hard way.


I wholeheartedly agree with most of this. But, when faced with this in a protest room (as a judge), my thoughts are always focused on establishing the facts. The conclusion (and any lessons) come later in the process.

More than a few times, we've ruled in favor of a party who uses the wrong verbiage, and sometimes the wrong rules reference. We usually make it a point (especially with kids) to let them know how we reached our conclusion, and why the rules and/or terms they used were not correct.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by JeffS
Totally agree with that, in my above example theres two boats coming in on a roughly 90 degree seperation your in the dinghy, I'm on the F18 were same distance from the mark as much as you can tell on the water. Why would you not give way to me?


The question that needs to be answered is if an overlap exists when the first boat reaches the zone. If the answer is yes, the inside boat is entitled to room.

If there is a 90 degree separation between the courses of the two boats, then an overlap almost certainly exists, and the inside both is owed room.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 04:07 AM

No overlap because of the angle seperation both hitting the three boat cicle at the same time means no overlap at the mark just different angles so no inside boat they just hit. I say the boat nearest the wind being your dinghy in this example then must avoid me? Where am I going wrong with my inerpretation of the rules? Still not challenging I had to drink 3 bundys the other night before I had a mark and two boats to do this scenario on my desk.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Ah - tactically a tough spot. You're not going to out-point a mono after the rounding in that situation, and I see that tacking away wasn't an option. I imagine I would have footed hard to try and break through his lee - if there's a good bit of track left, you really need to get by him to make your rating work. If you're near the finish, you might not have any other option than to do what you did - lock in and hold with him as high as you can to keep ahead of the Pac Men behind you.

Sportsmanship? Supposed to be at the top of the pile throughout the course. He was being a sportsman, in a way, by using the tactical advantage to cancel out your speed advantage. That's a good opportunity for discussion at the bar later - "Hey, good job holding me off after that last mark. You know I would have gotten you if I broke free, right? Cheers - I'll get you next time."


Interestingly I choose the perhaps not so PC route of after the 3 boat lengths I luffed him up enough to cause both boats to go almost into wind, at which stage he then purposely turned into my boat, shouted protest and demanded I do a 720.

Now thinking this was a bit rich, there was a bit of verbal between parties about being unsportsmanly and why bother when he was on a PN of 860 and I'm on 680.

He carried on enough that he approached the RC and wished to arrange a protest, only to be told he would be the only person in the bar, and thats what so good about local Wednesday night racing, apart from a few, nobody really takes it all to seriously.

Nice discussion guys, learning lots here.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by JeffS
No overlap because of the angle seperation both hitting the three boat cicle at the same time means no overlap at the mark just different angles so no inside boat they just hit. I say the boat nearest the wind being your dinghy in this example then must avoid me? Where am I going wrong with my inerpretation of the rules?

Jeff,

Take another look at the definition of "overlap". It is possible for boats on widely divergent courses to be overlapped. If two boats are approaching a leeward mark 90 degrees apart, they are almost certainly overlapped.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Eric, I'll bet another term you hear all the time is "overtaking" boat.

I still hear "mast abeam" every now and then. While we're at it, the rules haven't contained the terms "360" or "720" for four years. Those penalty descriptions are inaccurate. "Proper course" is probably the least understood restriction -- I often hear people yelling "proper course" at inappropriate times (although this has declined with the deletion of rule 17.2). The next most confused topic is mark-room.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 01:37 PM

where does a non racer get a copy of the rules to read and start to learn them?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 01:37 PM

re. the confused mark room, which I believe started this whole thread, clear this up for me:

Two boats coming into the 3 boat lenght circle, one is on port, the other is on starboard. The port boat gets to the circle first and then has to tack (or gybe) to round, but is also inside of the starboard boat.

Does the starboard 'right of way' go away when the port boat gets to the circle first?

This could be at either A or C mark, with the two boats coming in on their respective laylines. If I am interpreting the rules correctly (and I'm not sure I am) the Inside boat, the first to the circle, regardless of tack, has "Rights" to round in a seaman like manner, not in a NASCAR like manner.

Is that how we are to interpret this?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
where does a non racer get a copy of the rules to read and start to learn them?


If you join US Sailing they will send you a rule book as part of your paid membership.

http://home.ussailing.org/

If you don't want to spend the $60, look here, it's the 157 page PDF:

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-%5B5950%5D.pdf

Open that pdf and scroll down to about page 16, rule 18.3 and 18.4, can one of you judges explain that, when two boats are coming into a gate on opposite gybes, who has right of way?(it mentions rule 18.4 doesn't apply at a gate)

Thanks.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
re. the confused mark room, which I believe started this whole thread, clear this up for me:

Two boats coming into the 3 boat lenght circle, one is on port, the other is on starboard. The port boat gets to the circle first and then has to tack (or gybe) to round, but is also inside of the starboard boat.

Does the starboard 'right of way' go away when the port boat gets to the circle first?

This could be at either A or C mark, with the two boats coming in on their respective laylines. If I am interpreting the rules correctly (and I'm not sure I am) the Inside boat, the first to the circle, regardless of tack, has "Rights" to round in a seaman like manner, not in a NASCAR like manner.

Is that how we are to interpret this?


Note: I am still talking about the current 2009-2012 rules here

Timbo,

The application of Rule 18 is slightly different at windward and leeward marks. One of the main causes for this is the definition of overlap. When sailing closer than 90 degrees to the true wind, overlap does not apply between boats on opposite tacks. When sailing greater than 90 degrees from the true wind, overlap does exist between boats on opposite tacks.

In practice, this means that at a leeward mark, boats on opposite tacks can have an overlap, and the inside boat at the zone is owed room. That room includes room to gybe and round the mark. However, rule 18.4 applies:

18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to
sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from
the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at
a gate mark.

So, if you are an inside overlapped boat approaching a leeward mark (not a gate), you are owed room to gybe and round the mark, but you cannot sail further than needed before gybing.

(rule 18.4 is actually deleted in team racing, making the mark trap possible)

At a windward mark, say to be left to port, a port tack boat cannot have mark room on a starboard tack boat because overlap does not exist between boats on opposite tacks. If the boats are inside the zone, the actions of the port tack boat are restricted by both rule 10 (opposite tacks) and rule 18.3:

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:04 PM

Thanks Jeff, now, about the remark in Rule 18.4 concerning a "Gate"...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:14 PM

Thanks Timbo
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:29 PM

Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark in order to allow competitors to choose which mark they round.

Picture approaching a gate on starboard gybe with another boat to windward, and both boats sailing a fairly hot angle typical of spinnaker cats.

If rule 18.4 was turned on, the leeward right of way boat would not be permitted to sail any further from the right (facing upwind) mark before gybing than needed to sail the course.

Turning off rule 18.4 at a gate allows the leeward right of way boat to decide they want to round the left gate (facing upwind), and continue sailing past the layline to the right mark.

Does that example help? It's a hard one to describe.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 02:45 PM

I recommend getting and reading Dave Perry's book explaining the R-O-W rules: "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012". Obviously it would be a good idea to wait just a little bit longer and buy the new version which will be out soon. There are other books that explain the rules (The Rules in Practice 2009 - 2012 by Bryan Willis, for example) - I have both but I prefer Dave's. There are several good rules blogs such as this one that lists the ISAF Rules study guide among lots of other good info: http://www.unrulyracing.com/2012/09/rrs-2013-16-study-edition.html

As I wrote earlier, it has never been easier to get good rules info and study material, quizzes, videos, etc. Just spend a little time looking around and checking it out to see what most appeals to you and your learning style. There is even an app to load the rules on your phone so that you have them with you wherever you go. One of my favorite ways to better understand the rules is to read the US Sailing and ISAF rules cases which are also available online at: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Rules.htm
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark in order to allow competitors to choose which mark they round.

Picture approaching a gate on starboard gybe with another boat to windward, and both boats sailing a fairly hot angle typical of spinnaker cats.

If rule 18.4 was turned on, the leeward right of way boat would not be permitted to sail any further from the right (facing upwind) mark before gybing than needed to sail the course.

Turning off rule 18.4 at a gate allows the leeward right of way boat to decide they want to round the left gate (facing upwind), and continue sailing past the layline to the right mark.

Does that example help? It's a hard one to describe.


Thanks Jeff, I am thinking back to the original situation that started this thread. We were going downwind into a gate, starboard boat coming in on three overlapped port boats, all about to round the same (left, looking upwind) gate mark. The port boats got to the 3 boat lenght circle first, so even though they are on port, they had right of way to round, and the starboard boat had to give them room, correct?

I think that's been answered, I just want to be clear.

I've got to go deal with the FAA and FAR part 121 rules for the next 4 days on my way to Dubai and back so I won't be here, but thanks for the input.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Two boats coming into the 3 boat lenght circle, one is on port, the other is on starboard. The port boat gets to the circle first and then has to tack (or gybe) to round, but is also inside of the starboard boat.

Does the starboard 'right of way' go away when the port boat gets to the circle first?

First of all, the rules at the A (windward) mark are very different than at C (leeward) mark. Rule 18.1(a) says that rule 18 "does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward". If boats on opposite beats are approaching the windward mark, it's simply a starboard/port encounter. If the port boat tacks in the zone (either ahead or inside of the other boat), then rule 18.3 "Tacking When Approaching a Mark" applies. The boat that tacked then has additional obligations, even if she is ahead or leeward.

When approaching a leeward mark, the inside port-tack boat does get mark-room. In the previous (2005-2008) rules, the right-of-way also changed. In the current rules, they do not. The starboard-tack boat retains right-of-way, but has the additional obligation that she must give the inside boat mark-room. When the inside boat gybes, she changes tack, but is still the give-way boat (rule 10 switches to rule 11).

If the two boats are overlapped at the zone, it does not matter which one reaches the zone first. The outside boat must give the inside boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(b).

If the boats are not overlapped, and the clear-ahead boat reaches the zone first, then the clear astern boat must give the ahead boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(b).

If the boats are not overlapped, the clear-astern boat reaches the zone first, and they later become overlapped, then the outside boat must give the inside boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(a).

I hope that helps,
Eric
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
...I luffed him up enough to cause both boats to go almost into wind, at which stage he then purposely turned into my boat, shouted protest and demanded I do a 720.


So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? Leaving the mark, I'd guess not... judges have patiently explained to me that proper course is a little subjective, but it becomes clearer once you pass the midpoint between marks of the course. Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

One thing I try to say as an overtaking, faster boat - "This will only hurt for a second." I say it with a smile.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:19 PM

Eric, that's what I thought, thanks for clearing it up!

You all have fun sailing this weekend, should be some wind with that little Cat 1 thing coming up the east coast!

I'll be in the desert...if I can get out of Orlando!
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? ... Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

If a leeward boat originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths, and later heads the windward boat up "almost into the wind", then she breaks rule 17 "On The Same Tack; Proper Course". The windward boat would be entirely correct to protest. The leeward boat may not sail above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 03:43 PM

"originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths"
Can you elaborate on this for a novice racer?
i don't really understand it

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by John Williams
So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? ... Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

If a leeward boat originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths, and later heads the windward boat up "almost into the wind", then she breaks rule 17 "On The Same Tack; Proper Course". The windward boat would be entirely correct to protest. The leeward boat may not sail above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 04:58 PM

[quote=Timbo
Thanks Jeff, I am thinking back to the original situation that started this thread. We were going downwind into a gate, starboard boat coming in on three overlapped port boats, all about to round the same (left, looking upwind) gate mark. The port boats got to the 3 boat lenght circle first, so even though they are on port, they had right of way to round, and the starboard boat had to give them room, correct?

[/quote]

Well yes, but its not the fact that the port tackers entered the circle first. Its the fact that when the starboard tacker entered the circle, the port tackers were over lapped with him. As i said, the port tackers can be a mile away and still be overlapped because they are infront of a line extended across the starboard tacker's transoms.

If a starboard tacker bears off just as he enters the circle, he can break the overlap that some port tackers may have.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
"originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths"
Can you elaborate on this for a novice racer?

There are several ways in which two boats can become overlapped on the same tack within two boatlengths. One boat could overtake another either to windward or to leeward. A boat could tack or gybe next to another boat. Two boats overlapped more than two boatlengths apart sailing different courses could converge.

If a boat that was clear astern, overtakes another boat and becomes overlapped to leeward of her, then the leeward boat may not sail above her proper course (see rule 17 for full details). This rule exists so that:
  1. If a boat overtakes you to windward, you can luff her up to protect yourself from getting rolled, and
  2. If a boat overtakes you to leeward, she cannot luff you up in order to pass.
Does that help clear it up?

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
If a starboard tacker bears off just as he enters the circle, he can break the overlap that some port tackers may have.

The starboard tack boat had better bear off well before entering the zone, and hold that course until she is definitely in the zone. Otherwise, rule 18.2(d) comes into play: "if there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not".

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
...I luffed him up enough to cause both boats to go almost into wind, at which stage he then purposely turned into my boat, shouted protest and demanded I do a 720.


So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? Leaving the mark, I'd guess not... judges have patiently explained to me that proper course is a little subjective, but it becomes clearer once you pass the midpoint between marks of the course. Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

One thing I try to say as an overtaking, faster boat - "This will only hurt for a second." I say it with a smile.


Yeah, you might want to rethink the conversation starters it does nothing for the agro. Just do what you are gonna do and move on quietly. Unless it is Ricky then by all means carry on.
Posted By: AzCat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/26/12 10:58 PM

GREAT, NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED!!!
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/27/12 01:18 AM

It is O.K. to be confused here because this is a poor place to learn the rules. (Most of) The guys explaining are doing a good job but they are only doing word descriptions - no drawings even; no video, no other visual aids. Makes for a tough teaching environment. There are plenty of other websites that will provide those other tools to make learning much easier. Take your curiosity to those places and learn before you get too frustrated and give up. It will soon make sense when you can see it applied. Here is one example: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Rules/Animated_Handy_Guide.htm?bcpid=61494017001&bckey=AQ~~,AAAADkpfq7E~,4OewegLUcjErjwxev9HJ8XQuMzR8VOpx&bclid=110123965001&bctid=111698220001
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/27/12 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by John Williams
So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? ... Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

If a leeward boat originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths, and later heads the windward boat up "almost into the wind", then she breaks rule 17 "On The Same Tack; Proper Course". The windward boat would be entirely correct to protest. The leeward boat may not sail above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric

But we had gone beyond 3 boat lengths from the mark and in my view he should have had ample time to sail his proper course to the next mark. His biggest complaint was that because he had been forced to turn ( bigger boat and taller mast ) I could then pass him coming out of the mark.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/27/12 01:55 PM

Every time I read a rules discussion thread I can not stop falling into a philosophical frame of mind on how complex common situations become when the RRS are applied.

The 4 year revisions dont seem to make things simpler either. Mast abeam calls when racing translates auomatically to "lets stay away from this boat" in my head and tells me that the current RRS are not working.

I dont have answers but I am sure the rules for our game is overly complex and changes too often.

Sorry for digressing off topic..
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/27/12 10:03 PM

Here we go again - no rules conversation would be complete w/o the obigatory whining about how complex the rules are. First of all Rolf, the mast abeam call went out a LOOOONG time ago. Second, those common situations are what are complex, not the rules. Third, the rules have major changes only every four years, and often they do not change much as is the case this year. Fourth, the actual R-O-W rules are amazingly brief considering all that they have to cover - just compare them to practically any other set of game rules. Finally, the rules are changed only to make them work better, be briefer, clearer, and to correct unintended consequences, and only after being reviewed ad nauseum by rules experts all aroud the world so that they CONTINUE to work very well when followed.

How much time and effort have you (and each racer) spent reading, studying, and learning the rules? For the vast majority of racers, it is not much. When you consider that tactics derive directly from application of the rules, it is basic to racing that you understand the rules, not just a good idea. Has anyone considered what they are saying about themselves when they have been racing for a while and whine about the rules being too complex? Hint: it is not complimentary.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/27/12 10:32 PM

North U does a great job with their seminars, find one and go, especially after a book hange

Mike
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/28/12 10:02 AM

Mike,

it has to be election time in the US jugding from the lack of reading comprehension and quick attempts to stamp everybody with a different opinion as whiners and similar.

From my post it should be blindingly obvious that I am indeed aware that "mast abeam" left the ruleset sometime in the late 80s.

I have studied and followed the RRS since 2001. I still think the rules are complex compared to other team and individual sports I have taken part in. From the discussions that pop up all the time I find it a statement worthy of Comical Ali to say "it is the situations that are complex, not the RRS".

If you try to apply your arguments to the tax rules in the USA instead of the RRS you might agree with me that sometimes comittee work by experts might result in complexity instead of real world applicability.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/28/12 03:39 PM

Hey Rolf, If you have been studying the rules since 2001 then you know that you can submit suggestions to improve the rules, in fact that is encouraged. And if you think they are overly complex then you must have some ideas to share to improve them. Otherwise, you are indeed a whiner.

The simple fact of the matter is that racers should know and enforce the rules. It does no one any favors to complain about them and only encourages excuse making for not knowing them.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/28/12 06:28 PM

Mike,

if I were you I would focus less on whining. You seem obsessed by the word.

Of course it is valid to point out the complexity of the current RRS without having to present a new solution. Scientifical proof is more or less based on questioning instead of finished solutions.

Trying to have the establishment take a radical new approach never happens until a collapse of the system is near. Same with the RRS. Eg. the proposal Gurra Krantz made which earned no limit of ridicule. The proposal did have real merit though and obviously it works becouse this is the rule most beginners sail by: "Avoid all other boats".

Ref: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.no/2008/10/no-rules.html

I would start with this is the foundation and perhaps even stay with it.

If you want to discuss this, I propose you start a new thread.
Posted By: Clayton

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/29/12 03:14 PM

Deleted post, content mis-read.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/29/12 04:43 PM

tactics are slow. Hitting boats is even slower.

Find the clean air and steer that way...
Posted By: AzCat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/30/12 01:54 AM

Out here in Az, We are trying to get more people into sailing and into racing. Its attitudes like yours that scare people away who might otherwise get into sailing and or racing. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.

CHILL MAN!!!

We are all learning the rules and how they apply to the many gray areas created in racing. You probably shouldn't come out here any time soon and race with us, because you will be PISSED!!! But we have a great bunch of guys with really cool boats!
The rest of you, come on out and race with us this winter, Im sure you can teach us desert dwellers a bunch.
But guess what. We have gone from a couple cats at a few events a year, to 10 to 15 cats on the third weekend of every month and growing. We will do anything to get people to come back out to the lake at the next event! Last weekend, I left my 2 cats at home so that I could climb aboard a new members cat and teach them how to keep it pointy side up.

At club racing, enjoy the racing, don't hit anyone, learn and / or teach the rules as you go. Just because you memorized the rule book doesn't make you an expert on the rules.

Posted By: brucat

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/30/12 01:30 PM

If we can't have rules debates without spiraling downward toward personal attacks every single time, we will quickly drop below critical mass and will have no regattas left that are worth attending.

Let's take some deep breaths here guys...

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: - 10/30/12 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton
Don't call me a whiner as I'm probably old enough to be your dad and would you call him that?



Uh yes, I call my dad on his sh!t and he certianly doesn't hesitate to call me on mine. Just becuase we're old doens't mean we get a pass.

Oh wait... Ricky I'm old so STFU.
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