Alter Cup Notice from USS

Hi Rick:



Can we let the folks know that today is the last day to register for the U.S. Multihull Championship for the Alter Trophy? The club needs to know who is coming so they can make sure they have enough food etc. and that would be really problematic if someone just showed up. We wouldn’t want to let anyone go hungry!



The registration site will close at midnight Central Time. If anyone has questions, they can contact the event chair, Ashley, who is copied here. The link is http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult/USMHChampionship.htm.



Thanks in advance for your help,

Liz



For more information visit http://championships.ussailing.org.






Liz Walker

Championships Director

US Sailing

LizWalker@ussailing.org
Phone: 401-683-0800 x651
Fax: 401-683-0840
15 Maritime Drive
Post Office Box 1260
Portsmouth, RI 02871
www.ussailing.org

The US sailing site says 11/15/12 and the NOR says
4.2. Registration closes at midnight Central Time on after November 16, 2012 and is not refundable.

The email says today. Why not just have it with the F16 nationals the week before after all it is just a regatta because you don't have to qualify ?

Dave, there is a lot of baggage that comes with a USSailing related championship and that baggage can be a burden. Things from sponsorship restrictions to USSailing getting their piece of the gross.

Bert R can fill you in on this call... The championship meeting minutes are thorough, complete and published on line if you want to read about it.

I hope everyone gets good weather.... it's been a bitch lately... no matter where in the country you are.

Too bad more of you didn't participate in the annual meeting, where this was discussed at length.

US Sailing is very much interested in running combined events, and communicated that to me in October 2011. Cost will not be allowed to get in the way.;

In the survey, the sailors say they want the Alter Cup to be a stand-alone event, but the registrations don't seem to be supporting that.

A bid was proposed to use the F16 event as the Alter Cup for 2012, as mentioned minutes are online and Bert would be the best person to answer this question.

Mike

Mike,

I wish to apologize in advance for starting what might turn into a bru-hah, but the poll missed a few things. 1) the poll probably did not capture opinions of most of the people that have participated in past championships because many of them are not internet frequenters and I suspect don't have the patience for this kind of polls. 2) the vast majority of people that participated in the poll probably wouldn't consider themselves for the championship in the short term. They're the ones who pushed in this direction but are not showing up.

The result is an event structured for people that have never attended the event but want to "someday". I used to be one of those sailors. It is effectively just another regatta that coincides closely with another local event and is losing out.

There is a need for this championship but I think the shape and color of it lies somewhere between what the general populous wants and what the top sailors in the country would consider a worthwhile en-devour. These two view points are not the same.

Thanks Jake.

Just to clarify a few things:

There was a very large percentage of past participants. The survey was disseminated through multiple channels, and this site was not the primary channel.

The old format was not only expensive; it did not draw as intended. A 10-boat event is not considered impressive as a major championship by anyone except a few die-hards. I know they don't accept that, but I've heard it from multiple sources, including past participants.

Absolutely no one wants to "dumb down" the regatta. We need to find ways to make it more relevant and to increase participation. This is proving to be exceedingly difficult, as many sailors are gravitating towards OD events with their limited vacation time and funds.

For that specific reason, I am starting to think that partnered events are the best hope, but we need the support of the OD classes to make this a reality.

Mike

The theory of the case is that the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

What else is needed?

Jake,

Mahalo for standing up for sailors who have to de - rig, shower, and eat prior to attending meetings or teleconferences.

On the other side of this on-going Formula 16 Sailing Festival, including the Nationals and the "Alter Cup," we will have a base set of fresh information available to share with the multihull public. The range of inquiry and investigation will include a plan to conduct research regarding safety practices for race management, discuss the role of the National Multihull Championship, and to hopefully, begin establishing a schedule of important OSC (Continental & International), National, and Regional events. Scheduling should be a priority for all Classes and Associations.

The former Multihull Council, now known as, the Multihull Racing Committee, under Mike Levesque, is working for all multihull sailors more than ever.

I have been plugging for a "Scheduling Sub - Committee" for over a year. Let's see if there 'is a NEED.'

OK, Bert, what exactly does this mean? I can't think of a single person in the room or on the call that isn't an active sailor and volunteer.

There is an active question here that you haven't answered: Why was the F16 Nationals bid discarded in favor of the stand-alone PBYC event for the 2012 Alter Cup?

Mike

Mike, please publish the minutes where this was dicussed and USSailing agreed that it would not require the $50 per competitor and would waive the sponsorship restrictions. This would be a signicant change in direction from USSailing. Based on my experienced with USSailing USSailing Championships are simply menthod to generate revenue. If USSailing is really embrasing what you are implying in your post then this is indeed huge change but until I see it in print it means nothing.

It's not here.

I remember the day when even having a qualifying event at a combined event was not acceptable according the US Sailing. I guess times, they are a'changing. I don't agree with having a US Sailing championship in conjunction with another event. It should be a free standing championship on par with championships at other national levels. I disagree that the low registration count for this year's Alter Cup is proof that it should be combined. I think the low count is due to it's close proximity to another competing event in location and time and a lot of uncertainty in the part of the sailors as to what the championship actually is. Those that I know that would consider sailing an F16 would rather attend the nationals because it is more of a known value at this point.

Mike,

You know the answer here as well as Bert does, it was discussed more than one conference call and y'all voted to accept the PBYC bid over the StABYC bid, which meant a stand alone event. I did not have a vote, but would have voted with the majority. I don't recall much, if any support for a partnered event, it was viewed as a dilution. Obviously, things haven't turned out as hoped. Hindsight is great, but don't pretend you don't know how it went down.

Mike [/quote]

Mike, please publish the minutes where this was dicussed and USSailing agreed that it would not require the $50 per competitor and would waive the sponsorship restrictions. This would be a signicant change in direction from USSailing. Based on my experienced with USSailing USSailing Championships are simply menthod to generate revenue. If USSailing is really embrasing what you are implying in your post then this is indeed huge change but until I see it in print it means nothing.

It's not here. [/quote]

Spot on Dave

Mike,

I didn't mean to portray everything so negatively. I appreciate what you guys are doing and the effort you are putting into it. I just wish there was a better answer.

Yes.... half the country wish's the election had gone the other way.. (How is that working out) Wishing for something else is a waste of time. Children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

The event is a BYOB event.... now and in the future.

There are NO clubs with a standing club fleet of cats that can be offered up....
There is no interest in owners donating their boats so that somebody else can race them..
There are no builders who want to market their boats by using a charter discount.
There is no Sugar Daddy who will drop 20K to run the old program.

The event is a BYOB regatta.

So... either the One design classes support it.... or it will die.
Either the sailors support it by showing up... or it will die
Either the people who ran it in the past stop bitching ... or it will die. If you were on the MRC meeting call you know of the tentative plans for next year with the Am Cup..... Support the event or it will die.

We will not screw our volunteer yacht clubs over while cat sailors act like children and wish for Santa to deliver a brand new fleet of 10 cats for them to play with at nominal charge.

The theory of the case is that the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

I suspect that we could ask PBYC to extend the registration deadline.... Let Kevin R know if you can race the event....

Everyone knows that PBYC has an outstanding reputation for delivering a great event..... don't screw them over!

Guys, I am not the enemy. I am trying to balance the wants and desires of some very different groups of people. I am trying to get "better answers" but we only have one championship...

Bert is the voice of the championship committee. There was indeed a lot of discussion, and a vote was taken. I am not hiding behind anything, Bert is the person to answer the specific question.

Like most of you, I would prefer that the championship remain a stand-alone event, but we are listening to lots of sailors who are telling us that they simply cannot support both this event and their annual OD event, and attendance at qualifiers over several years supports that. Bob Merrick stated it here on this forum many years ago, most people chose to ignore him at the time...

As for the discussions about cost, etc. I have stated many times over the past year that this has been between Jack and myself, in his office and on the phone. It comes up in almost every conversation that we have, and he always has the same answer. It is not in the championship committee minutes, because those meetings have been focused on preparing the stand-alone events for 2012 and 2013.

As I mentioned at the council meeting in San Fran, I sat down with Jack in October this year to prep for the meeting, and we discussed this yet again. I noted that people don't believe me, and needed some hard numbers. His answer was simply that we don't even have an event proposal yet, so let's get that going first, and the fees would be part of that discussion at that time.

He is keenly aware that partnering with a class would require a different set of operating rules, which would also relieve his staff of a lot of work, since the classes already do such a great job with organizing these events. So, the costs to US Sailing would be less, and therefore the fee would be able to be reduced.

Regarding sponsorships, the discussions have been nearly the same. Up through this year, we had Rolex as the primary sponsor, and have been allowed to add another sponsor, so long as we didn't diminish the value to Rolex (competing category, logo size, etc.). This was communicated to the club, and rather than coming up with a specific, approvable sponsor proposal, we got more of the same types of comments here: denial, mud-slinging from the past, etc.

At this point, I may just need to be blunt: When someone comes forward with a concrete plan, we can present that and work through the details. If all we ever get is complaints from people that can't let go of the past, nothing will change. The old addage is true: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...

Mike

EDIT: Another outside-the-box solution I have been thinking about: Since we primarily have two types of sailors (DH sloop and DH spin), would people support a stand-alone championship that featured BOTH fleets? We would need a second trophy, but this could result in doubling the numbers with minimal effort, and would alleviate a lot of the debate about boats to be used.

I'm not sitting here saying it needs to be like it was. I realize the change had to happen as the boat prices are freakin' out of control. What I do believe, and is not represented in the poll, is that the event should still maintain a level of exclusivity. Entries should be limited and you should have to qualify. The BYOB aspect of it is fine, but the planning will need to be made carefully schedules to avoid falling within a year of a World Championship in the US of that class, or National Championship of that class by 6 months.

I'm sitting here thinking about having the championship as a combined event and it just dawned on me how completely and utterly backwards this is. For years, we fought a losing battle with Liz/Us Sailing over the qualifying events. We were pushed hard out of having them combined with other events, to combined events but separate starts, to free-standing events, then certified clubs, certified PROs, yada yada. It made the qualifiers difficult and expensive to manage, lowly attended, and more separated from the general catsailing community. In some cases, we ended up with PROs that weren't familiar with catamarans and the stand-alone regatta could have been better. So after living through all of this detailed requirement, I'm a little shocked that the qualifiers are out the window and the championship is looking to be combined with another event. This seems really backwards.

The event needs a degree of exclusivity and status to be anything of merit. I think we still need qualifiers but with considerably relaxed requirements. Before Liz accuses me again of wanting to relax the USS membership requirement to discount my opinion, let me state clearly: I believe all competitors of the qualifiers should be US Sailing members. We have had issues with this in our area in the past (not as much an issues as some others) but in some cases, we needed the head count to make the free standing qualifier survive financially and some of those people wanted to sail, didn't care about the championship, didn't want to be US Sailing members, but we needed their entry fee and enjoy their company.

Here's what I think will work. Re-introduce the qualifiers in conjunction with other major regional regattas. Make the actual championship a freestanding event, BYOB, class and location known well ahead of time and not conflicting with that class' US based worlds within a calendar year and not with that class' national championship within 6 months. Limit the actual championship to a 20, 25, or 30 boat fleet. Don't require certified PROs or certified clubs for the qualifier and allow it to be a mixed start of qualify-ees and non qualify-ees at major regional regattas. However, qualify-ees must be US Sailing members at the time of the qualifier. Let Spring Fever have a qualifier enabled fleet, Catfight, etc. If F18 is the boat of the year, F18 sailors can choose to partake of the qualifier in their normal fleet start and be ranked with other qualifier participants for inclusion in the event. We can finally have a legitimate event on a single handed boat too. Eliminate the portsmouth handicap qualifier and make the qualifier part of the class fleet of the selected boat for that championship. Go deep within these results for attendees. Draw for an open spot or two giving someone a chance that might not otherwise normally qualified to provide incentive for more qualifier involvement. Have a couple of limited special case slots for a youth team or other special cases. Stop with the restrictive requirements and let us enjoy the darn thing.

^
|

There's my plan. I'm sorry that I just don't have the patience for these meetings or calls - my opinion is usually discounted or squashed in those meetings anyway.

Jake, agreed, you nailed it.

The Alter Cup has always been an elite event. Keep it an elite event, the best competing against the best.

Very well said!!!

+1. I know we would make an effort to qualify if it didn't require much additional time to make the qualifying events. If the championship was held a few months prior to a major class championship (nationals), possibly in the same venue, that would probably help attendance as it would be an elite event that also prepared you for the championship. This time Alter Cup follows Nationals, and we see the participation issue.

Finally, the social calendar is important, even to those sailors at the top. Last time I did a qualifier (not that I'm currently a top sailor), it was mostly because the party promised to be good-great, which it was.

hmm... what is a North Amercians for a class....
Is it not the best XX sailors competeing against each other?? (I define this as the "Elite" sailors of the class competing for the NAs)

What you guys want is "Special" something Exclusive that only the special sailors get to compete in.

The observation of the facts on the ground is that US Sailors are not going to compete in two multiday national events in a year.... Time and budgets are limited. ... SPECIAL EVENTS do not rise to the top of enough sailors must do events.

This is not new....Special is over rated... Many a year (not always) saw a mad scramble to actually FILL the "Special Event" On Two occasions... I was asked to recommend sailors from my region who A) were competent an B) were likely to make sudden plans to race the 20 boat championship with 3 weeks to spare... The "Special" regatta was just not getting 20 teams to show up for whatever reason ...They managed to fill most of the events. THIS WAS WHEN we were spending 7 K in cash and using manufacturer supplied boats... I understand the appeal of Special.... however, Area qualifiers with an absolute certainity to get one of those "Special" Slots were poorly attended....(the rules to conduct them are a red herring in this debate) Area C sailors failed to show up to qualifiers or put them on their schedule because "Special" was just not a big deal.

Jake's proposal does not solve the underyling problem. Even Special Sailors will not show up for more then 1 major national event a year with their BYOB. We do not get the numbers needed to have a credible championship. (Survey said that 20 teams was a credible championship and the committe set the standard at 15)


The theory of the case is that competing for the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

I believe that Elite sailors at their NA's deserve a chance to win the Alter Cup Trophy and reflect the principals and values of the Championship....

I believe that SPECIAL sailors have the same constraints that every sailor has and they will not part with their time and money... Bottom line... you can't run an event for them that hits a reasonable standard. More the point.... You can't tell "Special Sailors" how they should spend their time and money... This championship is an invitation to compete... nobody makes you spend your money to go. . Nothing is stopping the top F16 Sailors from agreeing amongst themselves to show up and compete... They just are not doing it.

FYI, My point of view was a minority on the committee.

Mark you are correct. 98% of sailors, excluding the pro's, can only do a handful of major (week long) events a year. World's vs. Tybee. Nationals vs. Alter Cup vs. World's.

Which flavor of boat is selected for Alter Cup if its run concurrently with Nationals? U.S Sailing seems fixated on F16's right now, even though there are more F18's in the U.S. I could very well see this turning into a BYOB event where the only boat is the Nacra Carbon F17. IMO that would become a very exclusive event catering to the Olympic crowd. It may be a bad thing for the multihull community in general even if its the elite sailors.

I reject your categorization of me wanting something for myself. I want something special for the Alter Cup. I came to know, respect, and greatly appreciate the people that started it during my involvement with the organization. I would like to see it continue.



The "facts on the ground" you are using are flawed. The previous iteration saw sailors get to sail half the time, face huge insurance fees (chartered boats), and have some aggravation (mostly perceived) with boat variation. The current iteration is butted up against another major championship that people were already planning on when this one was planned and is in direct competition with the other event only a matter of weeks apart.



Both issues are made better with these ideas. I think the BYOB aspect will deal with one of the complaints I heard often that folks weren't getting enough time on the water. Combining it with another event makes it "just a trophy" and the team that wins the event also wins the trophy as a side-note. That's not what I would like the Alter Cup to be.



But you CAN run a respectable and sought after stand-alone event! I don't know if you ever participated in a past Alter Cup but the excitement and joy of competing and/or winning was never lost on any competitor. It was not just another regatta. We've had award ceremonies at City Festivals, in the middle of parades. Hell, we've got a day named after the event in at least one municipality. There is a lot of prestige that comes from the event and if the format hits the mark, I truly believe it will become what it can be.

The F16 was chosen for 2012 because the committee felt that the next Olympics would be held on a spinnaker boat, the Nacra F17 doesn't really exist yet, and the F18 Worlds on the other side of the continent would make boats unavailable. The date was selected to give the event its own weekend, and it was believed that since there are so few of these boats in the country, putting them close to the nationals in time and physical location would increase opportunities for chartering. None of these decisions came without plenty of discussion of the pros and cons of each.

Combining qualifiers with existing cat regattas has been tried, and has also failed (at least once at Roton Point for sure). By and large, people want to sail OD at the local regattas.

Finding certified officials is easier than you realize, many of them are within our ranks.

Personally, I prefer having qualifiers, and making them the only way to get to the finals, even if it's BYOB.

I have been beating the drum that we need to schedule these events at least three years out (we're trying, keep in mind that we are rebuilding from scratch this year).

I like the idea of using the same platform for the qualifiers and finals (if that's what was proposed by Jake above). This has also been discussed by me and Jack as a possibility for the future. Basically, if the 2014 event is to be held on Hobie Dragoons, the qualifiers would be held at existing regional regattas in 2013, and the Hobie Dragoon fleet would serve as the qualifier. Don't go to the qualifiers and/or don't bring a Hobie Dragoon, don't show up at the finals.

For this to work, we'd all need to get on board to support this. In the example above, all Hobie Dragoon sailors (skippers and crews) would need to be US Sailing members. While I used that boat as a non-threatening example, think it through if the finals were to be on a F18 or A Cat. Would people stay home from their local event just to avoid the membership requirement?

I see the loss of qualifiers as a major problem for US Sailing, as there are no other flag-bearing local cat regattas. I am working with Jack to see what we might be able to do, several ideas have been floated, and this will be a project for the winter. Training and rules clinics are on the top of the list. Send suggestions if you have them.

Mike

The scariest part of this to me is that I barely know what a Hobie Dragoon is....which means me (and many I know) probably aren't buying one anytime soon nor does this entice me to go to any length to compete in a qualifier. How many of these are even in the country? Which is fine on it's own - I'm probably not going to go get a Hobie 16 should that be the selected platform (though I don't object to the notion, I'm pretty happy with my current fleet). If you want any chance to have people attend the championship FOR the championship, it needs to be in line with the popular sailing classes. F16, F18, A-cat, H16, etc. (not a comprehensive list)

Eliminating the portsmouth start requirement, as you mentioned previously, opens up a whole new world on the idea of combining qualifying events with local regattas (Roton is definitely NOT a good example - there are examples of this working elsewhere even under Portsmouth). This makes it simple to align the qualifier with the local event and puts some additional validity to the qualification process.

The Hobie Dragoon is a youth development boat used by the French Sailing Federation... pretty sure Mike was just using it as an example.

Then again, the strength of French multihull sailing makes a strong case for having a fleet of youth spinnaker cats... but that is a whole different question!

Ahh - I see that it was just an example. Thanks.

OK, let me put this out there. Would this be supported?

2014: Hobie 16
2015: IWCA Wave
2016: F18

Finals are stand-alone events, BYOB, scheduled in the spring/early summer, four-day race weekend, optional clinic on registration day (fifth day).

Qualifiers the prior year on the appropriate boat, held at local existing regattas meeting all current US Sailing rules, no other way into finals.

Mike

EDIT: Keep in mind, the opinions expressed here are often in direct contrast to what we hear on the beach...

Mike,

I think the only way this works is if you only need to be a US Sailing member if you want to participate in the qualifier component of the event. For example, suppose A-cat is chosen as the platform and it will be at the Grass Is Greener Yacht Club in March of 2014. The local regattas that will be tagged as qualifiers are selected by their area representation in conjunction with the event organizers at the end of 2012. In this example, Spring Fever 2013 would be the Area Dn qualifying event as they are expected to have another A-cat fleet. The A-cat fleet registers and people that want their results to count as part of the qualify enabled event, pay a small extra fee (mostly for trophies/medals) and must be a valid US Sailing member. You don't force the membership on the entire fleet because you will lose connection and overall participation with everyone else if you do. Let it be business as usual for the rest of the fleet that probably wouldn't join anyway. The event is sailed and scored. The sailors that placed in 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 11th had signed up for the qualifying enabled event and met all the qualification criteria. All four are eligible for the championship in finishing order and depending on how deep the selection process goes.

US Sailing (Liz) will probably take issue with the lack of a membership requirement on the fleet - but I PROMISE you won't get more members or grow the championship with it. Not in our sailing community. I think you introduce some randomness through a draw for some positions at the event to make the qualification more attractive to sailors of every level and let the benefits of US Sailing Membership, particularly the championship series, speak for themselves - not forcing people into things that makes some turn away altogether.

I love it! I think that's a great way to start as long as the event works around possible conflicts (of which the Hobie 16 has many significant events).

For the finals, Memorial Day weekend (every year) is an idea that has been floated and has merit (few existing regattas on that date).

No, we don't get to pick and choose rules. Everyone in the selected class would need to be members for that event (qualifier). Everyone else should be encouraged to join.

BEFORE ANY OF YOU REPLY, READ THE REST OF THIS (a few times, if needed)...

We need to find ways to make people WANT to join. We could use these events (qualifiers) as the locations for the local clinics / rules seminars. I'm sure there are other good ideas.

Mike

Won't work - tried it. It alienates people to require them to join something they don't want to be a part of and it makes the organization look LESS attractive. It is not a winning position. The regattas won't want it either as it will affect their attendance. I also challenge the notion that there is some stone-recorded rule that states this. I fully support that anyone that wants their record to count toward the qualification of the event must be a US Sailing Member - but not the whole fleet.



You make people want to join by having a valid championship that is attractive and desirable but that doesn't interfere with their lives if they don't want to partake. US Sailing would just as soon attempt to grow the membership with thugs and baseball bats instead of pie and hot women (or men for the ladies).

Jake... the you I refer to is the collective point of view that the event must be special....not that you are a benficiary.



This was a FEATURE.... not a bug.... All of the former Alter cup sailors who advised the committee thought that this idea of back to back events was a true winner... J22 sailors use this strategy for woman's champs and then NAs....

They assumed that the champinoship was Special and top sailors would spend time and money to compete.... The date was the farthest away from the F18 date as possible... The theory was that charter boats would be available. (they are)

The concept is not working...

I see no compelling reason why a BYOB event resticted to the top 30 sailors from 3 x 10 Area Qualifiers would have more appeal?... Its just a second smaller NA's....((where you hope that you got 1/2 the eligible sailors) why would "special" sailors want to attend... the exclusive nature??? .... Makes no sense to me.

Why would the OD class want to have TWO essential NAs... The all inclusive one... and the special one.... I can never see how a class would want this outcome.

In my view... the history and nature of the championship means that the Alter trophy should be awarded at one of three NA's (sloop, spin, single handed) on a rotating basis.

The elite sailors in that disipline means that the best sailor that week wins the trophy.

The rotation policy address all of the multihull racers in the country... every three years... they get a shot at their day in the sun perhaps in their class.

Based on participation at NA's in the three disiplines... you could see 50 boats or more competing...

That is SO not true. I was on the call and voiced my opinion when shortly afterwards I was reminded that I wasn't officially on the committee (aka "shutup").

While membership is required at these events (US Sailing regulation 2.02 E, available on the website), championships alone are not enough of a carrot to drive membership, which is why I wrote that post the way I did. Read it again before ranting.

Mike

I'm stuck on this part: " Everyone in the selected class would need to be members for that event (qualifier)."

Are you not saying that if the A-cat is the boat, all A-cat sailors at Spring Fever would need to be members?

That is what I'm saying.

I recognize that this would require some bravery, but I think we can get there if we put the past aside and work to improve overall benefits of membership.

I can use help on that committee if you're interested, Jake.

Mike

Really

you must have been a stealth participant then.... Sitting in on the first meeting gives you a half assed understanding of the debate and no ability to speak to the actual decisions made.

The decisions were dicussed and voted here.

http://championships.ussailing.org/...Spring+12/Minutes/USMHC+3-22+Minutes.pdf

Notice you were not participating....

MEMBER
ATTENDED
NAME
COMMENTS
YES
YES
Levesque, Michael
MHC Chair
YES
YES
Livingston, Jamie
MEMBER AT LARGE
YES
ABSENT
Lovell III, John
MEMBER AT LARGE
YES
ABSENT
Newberry, Sarah
Youth Multihull Championship Chair
YES
YES
Rice, Bert
US Multihull Championship Committee (MCC) Chair
YES
YES
Schneider, Mark
MEMBER AT LARGE
YES
YES
Sullivan, Laura
USMHC Committee Secretary
----
YES
Walker, Liz
USSA Championships Director, MCC Liaison
YES
YES
Witte, Eric
MEMBER AT LARGE
** Quorum required(5)
Quorum requirements were met.
GUESTS
YES
Bradshaw, Chris
YES
Bush, Shannon
Championships Chair
YES
Casey , John
YES
Green, Steve
ABSENT
Kohl, Jake
Krantz, Mike
Pitt, Nigel
YES
Redja, Kevin
Smyth, Randy

Yeah, I remember that meeting. I was driving back home after getting half way to a regatta because my wife fell...and I learned while en-route that Liz took our changes to the event conditions and insisted on adding her own changes the day before they were to be voted on even though she wasn't involved with the group challenged with modifying the conditions. I remember specifically not being involved in that meeting. That was the day I "was done".

There were discussions on this event prior to that one meeting.

Okay, so I'm not an elite sailor and go to plenty of regatta's each year...I'll never qualify for the Alter Cup.

I won't (and haven't) participated in a qualifier for Alter Cup because I simply can't justify why I should pay USS for the privilege in sailing in their event. I've got plenty of other options and frankly I don't see what USS gives me (especially when both Skipper and Crew needed to be members .... that's an extra ... what ... $150 to my weekend); and I can afford it (we measure everything in wine -- that's 3 bottles of Cakebread!!)

To me, it's what do I get in return for that expense?

Other than this Championship, I don't really feel like USS cares about the beachcat sailor.

My 0.02

Convince me differently.

Mike, I appreciate the offer - but I'm not considering that again until there are some other changes (that I'll be glad to discuss offline). It's not "bravery" that's needed for this requirement. I just don't think it will get off the ground with this requirement in place. I totally disagree that the entire class, including those sailors of said class that are not interested in partaking of the qualifying event, must be members and stand by my "rant". I think it's a mistake to require that. This one little thing (and it is little and petty on part of US Sailing) will prevent the qualifiers from gaining traction and prevent events from being interested in hosting the qualifying portion (because they would lose participation in that class). It may work in the big boats, but it just won't fit here. I totally, 100% agree, that anyone that is partaking in the qualifier opportunity should be a member. No question there.

Look at T-backs post just above. I would wager that he wouldn't bother attending the Spring Fever where the F16 is in qualifying mode because he doesn't want to join US Sailing and isn't concerned with competing for the championship. It's more than just the $ thing, it taints the whole thing for some folks. The potential hosting regatta won't want the loss of attendance and would probably decline the qualifier opportunity if this requirement comes with it.

We're just trying to come up with new ideas.

Claiming that the Alter Cup is an important (some say the most important) benefit of membership, then giving a list of reasons that only a select few need to join is simply not a compelling argument.

US Sailing offers a variety of benefits, and I try to think of new ones, or better ways for us to leverage other parts of the organization all the time.

Even when we come up with things we all agree are important, it's impossible to ask for things when we have less than 100 people who bother to join, and no real promise that anyone would join if things were changed.

We can live in fantasy land all day, bit the reality is that US Sailing is our governing body and our segment is not big enough to fundamentally change the way they operate.

Our best (probably only) chance to succeed is to identify ways to work with them to add benefits, not to demand special treatment. I went to bat for us in San Fran (it was not pretty) and managed to retain our core structure. It was duly noted that we are set up differently than anyone else. Most resistance came regarding championships.

I understood this as the way to proceed on Day 1. The sooner the rest of you do, the more chance we have to be successful.

Mike

Said another way, we cannot say that we demand our championship be run our way, then choose to join only in years that we care to enter.

At the end of the day, it really is just that simple.

Mike

Mike, well said. Like any organization, you only get out what you put in.
Caleb

I guess I'm missing something ... except for the Brand Name "Alter Cup" what benefit does our class of sailors derive from USS membership?

Maybe it would be best to say that we don't really fit with USS and do our own thing and have our own Championship. Maybe bestow the previous champions as the name for the next year championship.

The 2012 Struble/Lacesella BeachCat Multihull Championship

tback...

Perhaps you should try the counter factual...
What does the laser class sailor get from US Sailing?...
What do they get that catamran classes don't?

In the early days, you had to be a member of US SAILING to get the discount at a Hobie Cat Regatta, or pay extra for the US SAILING insurance coverage. This was changed as the coverage shifted to a different program.

Now,as I mentioned, you get out what you put in. Just ask anyone who has taken part in, or supported the Junior Olympics, Multihull Youth Championship, Alter Cup, or the Fast and Fun programs.

During the the Multihull Council meeting, concern was expressed about where the future sailors would come from. It is a simple answer. If you are not supporting the Youth Sailing programs in your area, you are not part of the solution. Usually, these programs have US SAILING trained level one instructors,and use US SAILING Training programs. They may be part of a Communitity Sailing Program or a local Yacht Club. The regattas that have US SAILING sponsored events all require membership. Youth Membership and Family Membership,in addition to individual rates, are all available through the Multihull Council website.

Mark,

This, a compelling argument, doesn't make.

After all, I don't sail Lasers.

Weren't the lasers in the Olympics?

T, USS is a Federally mandated monopoly. If they chose, they could have any nonsanctioned regatta shut down by the Coast Guard as "unsafe", applying whatever definition they chose. The best you can hope for from USS is benign neglect.

Um, actually it makes a lot of sense. We aren't getting any less out if US Sailing than anyone else. Even if we were, it would be OUR FAULT for not asking or figuring out the leverage options.

Um, in case you weren't paying attention, cats are back in the Olympics. Are any of you going?

Keelboats and windsurfers are out. We are WAY outnumbered by keelboats. Should all of them quit too?

Mike

Pete, now you've done it (again), and the black helicopters are on the way...

Mike

tback

If your curiosity does not lead you to contrast your experience with any other sailor in a dinghy or keel boat class... there is not much more to say.

What do you value in the sport?

If you don't want to know what the organiztion does and decide on it's value for you. ... fine. There is no penalty for free loading..

There is a cost tho....

Every cat class bemoans the small number of young sailors entering our niche of the sport... just heard it from the class reps at the US Sailing meeting.... So... what to do.

Fact of Life... parents put their kids into programs that are acreditted. THAT would be US Sailing. If you want to introduce those kids to your favorite flavor of the sport... you need to join and be part of the solution... If you don't value youth participation in organized sport.... OK..

If you don't value qualified judges to manage differences on the water... Ok. (your non support is a very very small cost)

If you don't value a program to grow the performance of the Race Officers... OK. (your non support is a very very small cost)

If you don't value leadership on all of the back office crap that you need... Ok. (your non support is a very very small cost)

It's your choice... but it is silly for me to convince you of what you should value.

And you've again demonstrated your misunderstanding of sailing, that's why this latest Alter Cup is going so swimmingly.

Pete,

I was joking with you, but just for the entertainment value, please enlighten us...

Mike

We've been through that ad nauseum. You guys insist on reinventing the wheel so enjoy the process.

Dude... You should give up on trying to be clever with the snark..

if this were the wheel... things would work... wheels would go round and round.

If you think things don't work.... you are not wasting time reinventing a wheel.... you are fixing stuff.

Neither applies here!

What is on the table is called moving forward... the past is the past... What issues that are not class specific can the newly named MRC (Multihull racing Committee) same representative structure as the past do.

safety standards and practices for YC who run multi events and have no clue how to rescue a turtled cat.
Online Rules clinic for 2012-2016
Training for young sailors... rec to olympic
Training for sailors who want to get into mulit's

There is a championship committee.... handles double handed monohulls, single handed champs... oh and by the way.. a mulithull championship.
The committee is trying for a Championship that works for the entire community. See Bert Rice if you have questions... Read the minutes if you want to know what ACTUALLY transpired versus your opinion.

All of the one design classes get to work with the One design classes on shared issues.... What issues should the catamaran one design classes bring up through the One Design Committee of US Sailing.
Ask your class what they are doing... Who are they working with... what is their long term plan to build fleets, add sailors, train sailors whatever... There must be some value because the other sailing OD classes participate. Ask your class what's the plan. Matt Bounds is a great rep for Hobie on this committee...Ask him... F18's plan to be active members of the OD Committee. Your class can get a seat at the table as well.

Olympic/International competition is another area...that multi sailors have a stake in.... ISAF passed the final slate for 2016 today... Mixed multi could have been tossed... We were not. Kites were replace with boards... Do you value this activity... ie an olympic cat?
Does US Olympic have an effective Development program that will coach young sailors up for future success..
Will the US N17 class be wholely owned by US Olypmic or be owner run.... or will it be factory run.. Will US Olympic set the agenda? Have they put in a way for you to support the efforts? If you wanted to buy a boat... Could you and by when. See Sarah Newbury if you want more information about this area... She is the Youth Chair.

Mike, at the end of the day USSailing needs us more than we need them, so stop telling us that we need to get onboard. You and I both know that if USSailing went away tomorrow it wouldn't change anything for 98% of the multihull community. USSailing needs to wake up and deliver a service that encourages us to join or at a minimum just gets out of the way.

FYI, the registration upcharge for non USSailing members is NOT a reason to join USSailing. I happily pay the upcharge because that money goes to the club and does NOT go USSailing. Now if USSailing would kick in a few bucks for every USSailing member that attended a regatta that might encourage me to join, let me know what Jack thinks about that idea.

And Mike, the folks that did your job before you understood how USSailing works too.

Still waiting for the minutes where USSailing agreed to waive the $50 per competitor fee and sponsorship restrictions.

Dave, I already answered that, go back and read through my posts.

You obviously didn't know how to make this work, or I wouldn't be the chair.

If you slow down and read, you will see that we are trying to make a difference by adding benefits. All we're getting back here are excuses and arguments that just don't work.

It's not about the money, it's about perceived benefit. With this group, it is exceedingly difficult to crack that nut.

Mike

Benefit to who? If you don't like what you're hearing then apparently you just don't get it, and never will.



From the looks of things and your attitude, there will be plenty of opportunity for this to come back and bite you in the kester.

Work for who? The only people unhappy when Dave had the wheel were in an office. The sailors were happy. His volunteers were happy. You need a better grip on exactly what was "wrong" and what needed "fixing." Of the three legs of that stool (office, sailors, volunteers), only one of them is superfluous.

Trust me, I hear what you're saying. The problem is, you guys are far too one-sided.

It is absolutely true that if someone can't work with volunteers or sailors, they fail.

It is equally true that if you can't work with the office, you also fail.

I'm trying to find the balance, because I think there is a lot of good potential here.

You haven't given me anything actionable. Mark has identified some things that we can do, that fit within our charter, and may actually have funding available.

You guys give me reasons to run away. That's been tried, and didn't work either.

Mike

+1000000000000000
Then followed with this:

Please define "you guys"...If it's multihull sailors, then you're wasting your time with any more work if that is truly your stance. You're completely upside down on who should get the service.

Good golly...

More rhetoric about why US Sailing is the enemy.

If I didn't care about the sailors, I wouldn't spend any time here.

I've been asking how we can improve benefits. All you guys (yes, you) are saying is that nothing can be done.

How about something actionable?

These are not actionable:
Lower dues.
Dues not required.
Throw everyone out of the office.
Send an army of lawyers to open beaches.

These types of things are actionable:
Safety standards.
Training for sailors.
Training for RC.
Rules clinics.

Mike

My proposal was basic math and reality. The sailors interested in the championship will join USS. Those that aren't may join but aren't put in a position where they have to spend money toward something they don't want to and still get to enjoy their part if the sport. If you require membership of an entire fleet, regardless of their intent to partake of the championship, some attendance will be affected and nobody will come on board with the event. Besides, you can probably only get an additional 15 memberships nationwide with the "whole fleet" approach). Look at the negative affect the Hobie edict had on their membership when they tried to leverage their organized racing structure against membership requirements. The situation around this discussion is actually pretty similar. We have an organized racing structure in place that serves us well and USS is a very small part of this picture. USS should have a friendly approach to multihull membership because they really don't have any leverage with our groups from any other direction.

This isn't a self serving position I have. I believe this is what is needed to build a favorable market position for USS. If you have a respectable and friendly championship, not only will more people want to be a part of it, USS will have something positive and marketable. Our local club looks at racing solely as marketing and strives to break even on regattas. If we have a surplus, we reduce next years entry fee for that regatta. The low cost high quality proposition looks favorable for our cub. The approach of USS on its championships seems to have shifted from a benefit to a money making opportunity (particularly when some big name sponsorship came on board). Now it looks like they try to use it to force membership on people. Racing and championships should be a benefit of membership, not a way to drive it.

The big picture here is simple too. The multihull sailor membership base of USS is probably shrinking/shrunk. I really don't think you fix that by strong arming people into joining. You fix it by providing things that multihull sailors are interested in. If people don't want to join, nothing is gained toward long term health of the organization.

And I also want to state again (because this continuously gets twisted around and thrown back at me)...I believe anyone that partakes of a qualifier, and most certainly the ensuing championship, should have a valid USS membership at any time they compete at any level toward this event.

Jake,

The achilles heel of your proposal is that very few US Sailors will schedule and pay for two NA's in their season. There is a small group ... perhaps 15 to 20 teams that will play this much and this core of very active sailors is the core turnout for a USSA championship.

In 2012,
When you add in the BYOB factor (charter your own boat) PlUS geography (how close are the events to your home).... plus similar class NAs (F18 = F16 = N17.... or (Hobie 16's Hobie 20s or a single handed Hobie boat to draw a few teams to their event....) the number of sailors willing to compete at their second event, a Stand alone USSA championships is below ten teams. The event can't be credible or financially viable with this small core of sailors.

IMO, the only solution is to partner with a class OD championship and rotate the classes and displines..

The multihull community can NOT screw over host Yacht Clubs who commit to a long regatta and have a terrible turnout of sailors....

I've been down this road before many times. In today's world a US Sailing Membership required regional championship is simply not feasible. If you do have one you would be running it for 3-5 boats that would actually have a shot at going to the Alter Cup. If the Alter Cup starts requiring a regional win. If the Alter Cup remains open to anyone you would not even get the 3-5 boats.

You would have a hard time finding people willing to run the regional event for 3-5 boats. Some areas are stronger than others but other than the Coastal areas I doubt you would get your regionals run.

US Sailing has to learn that you attract more flies with honey than with vineger.

I agree that this can be an issue. However, I do believe that if the qualification/selection process is early enough and the field at those qualifiers deep, you can fill a 20 or 30 team roster at the championship with a couple of early commitment deadlines where you dig deeper in the results to get attending teams. To quote Mike, it will take some bravery. There will probably be a larger local sailor attendance to the event due to proximity - but this happens all the time everywhere. If the championship region and timing are able to be selected carefully to avoid proximity and timing conflicts within that class, I bet you could get a good draw.

I just don't see much of an upside to having it combined with another event. It's nothing but a piece of hardware at that point. There's no need for a budget, management, organization, etc. As a bonus, the host club probably has to live within the USS sponsorship agreements in order to give out the trophy. They probably also have to pay US Sailing some sort of per sailor fee and have to live with the same USS membership requirement of everyone in the entire event. I don't see an event that would be willing to sign up for all that headache to be able to hand out an extra trophy. The cost to benefit ratio isn't favorable to anyone but US Sailing.

There are pros and cons to all approaches. We are trying to come up with something to please as many people as possible.

At some point, we need to agree that having the championship is important enough to put personal preferences aside and support the event.

I am personally trying to work on improving overall benefits of membership. I am keenly aware that no one wants to feel "forced" to do anything. The membership requirement won't (and shouldn't) go away, and shouldn't be the focus. No one really complains about the money, but the lack of perceived benefits.

This is deja-vu all over again. We worked through this exact issue within HCA, with the same arguments, right down to people thinking they were helping by skipping national membership and giving an extra $5 to the local fleet...

We've solved this before and can do it again.

Mike

It's not personal preferences - it's about finding a workable solution.

The theory of the case is that competing for the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

If it is just a piece of hardware to the beach cat community... Then I can just stop right now...
I agee... it would simply not be worth it. IMO, All of the details about format and strings attached are small issues.

Bottom line.
What is of value to you?


For me.... I agreed with the above notion that the championship trophy tradition was of value and would do my best to make sure we do not half butt it.

We should also make the championship appealing to the entire community of racers and this is a big turn from recent practice.

We should NOT worry about "special" sailors.... .. by definition... we get the best sailors at a class's NA's....
and for the next year... we have a different discipline... (sloop) and a different set of sailors.... This is a turn from the policy where this event was usally the Second NA's for that select group of competitors.

YMMV.... However, IMO, without your One Design Class's support... the trophy will be retired for lack of participation.

Jake, at some point it's all personal preference. What you feel strongly is absolutely critical, others may feel equally strongly about the polar opposite.

Mike

Why not rotate through all boats (spin/non-spin) and the winner of the combined event gets the big mutha-trophy? So you'd have 20 boats (10 spin, 10 non-spin). Could you get through that many races in a week? Can they rotate on the water between races?

I probably just suggested a huge cluster, but I like the brainstorm you had Mike.

Any idea is a good one if people show up...

Mike

Simple.

Take all the Area champions on their boat and have a 10-12 BYOB (all class legal) raced under the P/N numbers for the trophy! No more factories figuring into the mix and much more cost effective. And, IMHO, the current AC is the most costly race of the year so this model doesn't work anymore.

BC

Maybe another solution is having it one year on spin boats sailed under P/N and the next year on non-spin sailed under P/N? BYOB. This way it includes everyone over a 2 year cycle.

Running the event under handicap has been proposed for quite some time, but was not supported by the survey.

It definitely would make it a unique event, that's for sure...

Mike

I agreed with Jake that the folks who sail these events (and would likely be a candidate for winning them) should dictate how it is run more than the rest of us part-time hacks.

Sing it with me now...

"I can't stand this indecision, married with a lack of vision, everybody wants to rule the world..."

I may be a consensus builder to a fault, but my goal is to correct this asap.

Mike

Is there really only six boats competing in this event?
Just curious on how this event went to nothing?

http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubm...?regatta_id=5784&custom_report_id=35


Registrants For
2012 U.S. Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Trophy : Pensacola Beach Yacht Club, Pensacola Beach, FL
November 15-18, 2012

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F 16
Sail# Class Skipper/Crew Hometown Club
1. 10 F 16 Joseph bello
Sarah Streater
*, * USA Fort Walton Yacht Club
2. 257 F 16 Sarah Newberry
Kenny Pierce
Miami, FL USA Miami Yacht Club
3. 15 F 16 Kirk Newkirk
Andrea Zern
Pensacola Beach, Florida USA Pensacola Beach Yacht Club
4. 2010 F 16 Sandra Tartaglino
Glenn Holmes
Tiverton, RI USA NENSA
5. 09 F 16 Tom Whitehurst
Mike Pedersen
Pensacola, FL USA PBYC
6. USA 214 F 16 Eric Witte
Tyler Holmes
Fairfield, CT USA Dynamic Sailing

Hoofy ya gotta pay attention son.

Go Mr. Tyler!

Dave,

I did read the past emails and discussions. I am curious as to this being an open event, and the organizational stages of this years event starting in March, why only six boats. Half the six boat fleet is an hour or less away.

I would assume that from at least April compeitiors could have at least planned to attend, that is eight months. It is not like this regatta came out of nowwhere.

So was it choice of boat?
Scheduling?
Interest of cats sailors in general not interested inthe Alter Cup?

Real curious as we ahve some youth getting out of monohulls and into beach cats at our local club, and would like to encourage them.

In my opinion, it was because the event was A) not typically a common sailor/everybody event so people considered it differently when deciding if they were attending B) F16 nationals that took place roughly within a week of this event in the same area.

I think it was very close to being a well attended event - I knew several people that were on the fence.

The most common reasons we've heard so far are:

1. Difficulty in obtaining a boat.

2. Schedule was too full and expensive this year, with the F18 Worlds on the other side of the country.

We knew this might be a lower-attended event and the F16 was chosen, and these dates chosen, with the expectation that boats would be nearby and available for charter. We did not expect a large carry-over from the F16 sailors, but did hope their boats would be available (which would help offset the costs of attending their own championship).

US Sailing is adamant that all charters are a private concern, and our hands were somewhat tied with managing this. In the future, I would like to see us take a more direct role in ensuring that anyone who needs a boat, gets one.

There may be something to the format change, but nothing other than time will fix that. Without a miraculous infusion of major cash, the old format will not be coming back. While I came into this as a diehard, thinking there might be a way to make this work; new provided boats simply cost way too much.

Mike

Mike, I can't let that sail by without pointing out that the restricted funds are still there. Would you share the balances of those funds?

I also would remind you that "way too much" is a matter of opinion. The committee had success negotiating an affordable charter fee when the manufacturers felt they got reasonable promotional value; something that eroded over time.

I *fully* appreciate you think the format this year was the only way to make it happen. I hope that the rumors that members of the committee feel the *sailors* are to blame for poor attendance this year are unfounded.

True.... The last and sole manufacturer did a couple of years in a row and is now marketing a different way.

Bottom line.... the possiblity of manufacturer provided boats is now ZERO.

John.... you have not offered your point of view on a BYOB event.

How many sailors in the country on spin boats or sloops will schedule two major championships in a season....

How sustainable is this support. IE can you expect these sailors to race year after year.

Here's your solution.USS Buys all the Hobie Tigers you can find and make that the all time, official Alter Cup boat.

Nd

EDIT: "Blame" is an extremely negative word that does not move us forward. Each of us has a stake in the future of this event. Those of us who work with US Sailing to plan the event, based on the limitations we have, and the results of the sailor survey; and our sailors themselves. The committee did its best, with no event scheduled at the beginning of the year, to come up with an event. The sailors need to step up and attend, or the event has no future.

Two key words in your post above: Restricted and Opinion.

It is the opinion of the President, Executive Director, Board of Directors, Championship Committee, and Multihull Championship Committee that the balance of the restrcicted fund, approximately $50,000, barely earns enough interest to support drawing the required $2,000 annual draw per the gift document.

Drawing more than $2,000 per year requires approval of the Board. We were quoted $15,000 to $20,000 to have provided boats for the 2012 event. This is much more than an incremental increase, even over prior years when $7,000 at a time was being withdrawn.

But of course you know all of that. Do you have a new proposal?

Mike

Hi Mike -

"Disgust" is also a very negative word, but it got used anyway. I agree that a volunteer with that sort of attitude will have great difficulty navigating a way forward. We have a fundamental disagreement that the sailors have an obligation to "step up." That's quite a sales pitch. FYI, there were several years when the venues and boats weren't known until well after New Years - your situation wasn't unique, so don't feel too put-upon.

The balances of the Hoyt-Jolley and the two Steven's funds should have been reported to you at the AGM. Don't forget those important tools. For perspective, the $2,000 interest language was written in 1998 or 1999 - the charter fee was bumped to $4K shortly after that (2001), and got bumped twice more as we were required to replace promotional consideration with cash. Consider that for a moment - it was the office that drove the cost of charters up as they made national sponsorship agreements that increasingly marginalized the manufacturers' support.

In the entire history of the event (through 2011), we never got anything other than a unanimous vote of the Board to allocate whatever charter fee the committee deemed necessary to run the event. We had to stand before the Board and talk about the event and the budget, but that was all. The resistance to spending the money came solely from an employee who had never been to the event. It was the pervasive attitude on the committee that our job was to host a quality event as long as possible under the tightening constraints of sponsorship that did nothing for the sailors or the host's bottom line. I take it back - we got cool hats. The last Chair was ready to take the event in a new and sustainable direction, but got shown the door for his ideas. The committee was in full agreement that our primary function wasn't to have a bank account. How were the Hoyt-Jolley funds spent this year? Absent charter fees, they don't appear to have gone toward entry fees for competitors...

I know that calls were placed to previous champions (well, some of them, anyway ) to ask why they weren't attending. I know what several of them said; a BYOB event isn't attractive as the Championship. I'm seeing that message got diluted somewhat in the translation.

You guys have a chance to get many more boats for next year, though it may only be a flash in the pan due to location and the fleet being considered. It will certainly be conducive to a much more marketable event for the future if you can take advantage of the situation - I can't imagine this year's sponsors are thrilled, or that prospective sponsors are very impressed or motivated. The committee got what they wanted this year - it's impossible to say that past committees who posted full rosters to over a quarter century of events were failures. Take what lessons you can from this year and be humble enough to apply them.

I would love to know the full story on this, but it seems that it is verboten to post it.




Shouldn't this info be accessible to any US Sailing member?

John:

Thanks for not answering the question "Do you have a new proposal?"

Has the "new and sustainable direction" you refer to above actually been documented anywhere?

No one said the prior events were failures, but the model did not allow for growth, and a 10-boat fleet was not viewed as a relevant championship by US Sailing.

More importantly, that model is simply no longer affordable. Your opinion on this has been duly noted, and as mentioned above, overruled by those with current responsibility and accountability for the funds.

Drawing down $15,000 to $20,000 a year is not sustainable. We are trying to ensure that this championship has a future beyond the next 2-3 years. Burning through the fund will not accomplish that.

The BYOB event IS the championship. We are trying to find ways, with the limited funds, to make them as attractive as possible. To that end, this year's funds were earmarked by the committee to be spent on a full-day clinic, free to the sailors. This would be captured in the minutes, available online.

While I struggle with this (Ford can't blame customers for buying Toyotas if Ford cars aren't attractive enough), we do have to hold sailors accountable when they say they want a championship then fail to attend.

In case you've been living under a giant rock for the past year, it should be completely evident that we were the first ones to openly ask all multihull sailors what they want, and have been trying to apply that information to rebuild the event. In some cases, the responses show equal aversion to both the old model and making changes. Bottom line, no matter what we do, we're not going to please everyone, so we need to decide whether the good of having the event outweighs not getting our individual preferred format options.

Mike

It sounds to me that US Sailing is the problem.

-----------------------------------------------------

Take the trophy away from USS, have the new champion host the next one at their yacht club each year. Rotate spin and non-spin each year. BYOB on P/N. No more stupid charter fees. Everyone must have insurance. Everyone races ALL the races. Make it accessible to everyone; no eliminations. The sailors get to pick which and how many big events they want to go to each year. It could be a 30+ boat event depending on the time of year!

Back in the day, the A/C meant something. The feeder races were the Area Championships. The funds collected from these races paid for the entry of their top team. The host YC or equivalent housed the sailors. Costs of attending were low. Only 10 or so teams from the USS represented areas raced for the A/C trophy. It was the USS multihull race, not some intergalactic race!

Currently, we are faced with having to bring our own boats. As fragmented as the classes are now, it is time to explore something else. In order for this race to continue, IMO, P/N numbers must be used. You have made this a spin only event and there are a lot of sailors out there with non-spin boats. The reality is you can not mix them in a P/N setting; the tables do not accurately reflect the speed of the spinnaker. I know P/N racing is not popular, but it might lead to something sustainable through our weak economic period.

After reading all this stuff, take a year off, take the pressure off, and regroup. 6 boats is not a show. Kudos to those who are there now keeping it alive.

All this is an attempt to see what may stick on the wall.

Respectfully,
Bob

I don't see US Sailing as the problem. They have been very supportive and are taking a loss this year.

I like your thoughts Bob.

Mike

Hi John
Do you really think that the members of the committee did not evaluate the attractiveness of a BYOB championship to the usual Alter cup crowd, the F16 Class, and the rest of the community BEFORE the event moved forward??

The dominant point of view on the championship committee asserted that the championship and trophy are of real value to sailors and they would compete for the championship on BYOB. We took our best shot scheduling the event and ID'ng boats for private charter.



The message got diluted???

1. Difficulty in obtaining a boat.
2. Schedule was too full and expensive this year, with the F18 Worlds on the other side of the country.

These are reasons that I can address on a committee moving forward.., As a committee member, I would judge that we over estimated our solutions or they were not good enough.

"a BYOB event isn't attractive as the Championship" begs the question... what do you mean by attractive?


The minority point of view on the committee asserted that the "special" Alter cup sailors would not compete because they were not getting a good enough deal compared to the highly subsidized charter boats of past years.

Sadly, you just confirmed this assertion had a lot of merit.

Not attractive enough event is honest... However, Nobody has a pot of money that can be accessed year after year to make the event more attractive by providing boats to this group of sailors. The money needed to solve your problem does not exist for us or any championship in the country and we can't solve it by giving you stuff...

you write


MY ATTITUDE on the committee is that the job is to organize a quality event for ALL Groups of sailors in the US... (Sloops, Spins and single handers), the host Yacht Club and their volunteers AND the organization staff that maintain the event year after year, under the constraints of 2012. (I also don't believe in fairy god mothers who promise lots of free money from unnamed sponsors )
For the record... I have NOT gotten a cool hat... or anything other then heartburn.



flash in the pan?.. chance? Thanks for the vote of confidence.



I have no problem giving you and past volunteers a pat on the back...happy now! now MOVE ON.



Once again... What are your recommendations for BYOB events.
I will humbly await a cogent answer.

Perhaps something more then...."Your offer was not attractive enough for me".. or


Yes we do have a fundamental disagreement because I say that the sailors, yacht clubs and USSA staff and volunteers ALL have an obligation to step up. There is no free lunch and racing is a partnership among these players. It is not a buisness deal or a charity.

Guys, I don't have a "new" proposal for you. My suggestion was to do the event on Waves here in Ca on 20 boats. When it was decided that nobody but me wanted to go to the mat on the charter fees, I supported taking a year off to regroup - a provided boat event every two years would be better than a BYOB event. I also said that it would be far better to spend serious money on a last hurrah before an extended hiatus rather than force the event this year and risk poor turnout, making it harder yet to attract or keep sponsors. I got shuffled off to Buffalo early, and told point blank that the past events could NOT be considered successes because the funds had lost money in a down market and not been augmented by new sponsorship. We've had terrific ideas of sponsorship for individual boats, so there was scoring between the Subway boat and the Home Depot boat (for example) independent of the regular team scores. The idea of buying a fleet was proposed and we looked at making the event a perennial affair like the Congressional Cup, hosted at a single club each year - that one, in particular, works well. You've had my ideas, and you've had the ideas of others - don't say you haven't gotten ideas. You guys picked one and the continued insistence that BYOB is the only solution is the chorus. I disagree - what else do you want me to say?

The Alter Cup and the Stevens Trophy were unique - that was the hook. If the event is another BYOB event, then you'd better come to grips with the reality that yes, it is a business, and you've put yourself into a market with a lot of competition.

Mark, it ain't about a pat on the back for anyone. Certainly not for me, anyway - I was chair a long time ago. But you should ask yourself; how many past chairmen or committee members did you ask about your job? There have been 60 or 70 volunteers on the youth and adult committees just in the last 10 years. You kept a couple of them on until you got tired of hearing them say something other than "BYOB," which, by the way, isn't an idea that originated on the committee. I hear you guys say you don't want to look back, but I have to say (again) I think it's a huge mistake. Why were people like Art Stevens, Steve Leo, Jamie Diamond, Jake Kohl and Dave Ingram a little bitter in the end? Doesn't it seem remarkable to you that the position of chairman has universally resulted in burn out with the office? I guarantee that none of those guys had issues with the job during the week of the event - that's the only thing that made the bureaucracy worthwhile. But that is what convinced me the bureaucracy is what needed to be excised from the event, not vice versa.

I have to agree with Bob that US Sailing is the problem with there rules and fees. Sailors don't attend the qualifiers in my opinion because of the extra fees at least I don't any more and won't in the future. I remember driving to a qualifier and paying 70.00 for a family membership so my wife could race with me in one event which we won but did not go to the Altercup because of cost and time. I personally won't go to another qualifier or Altercup because of cost and value. There are so many more events to go to that are funner and don't have the added US Sailing cost. How many boats were at the F16 Nationals the week before ? I guess the cost was less is why it was attended
more.
This years Altercup just tarnished the trophy with no past champions and such a small turnout. I do give the sailors that went kudos for going, but I don't think you could call it a real Altercup with so few of the best sailors in the US attending.
Also did want to say thanks to all the past and current chairmen and volunteers for your time and efforts on putting on the events.

Mike why don't you poll the question about the event leaving US Sailing and there rules and see what you get or was that in the survey you already did.

Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.

I've said all there is to say about the membership requirement. It is not unique to us, and should be viewed as something everyone should be doing before each season anyway, and not viewed as an event fee.

We are not going to ask to "take our ball home." The Alter trophy is a US Sailing trophy, and too many people have worked far too hard to embarrass ourselves like that.

John, apparently you have been forgetting things. I've spent a lot of time on the phone since being thrust into this position, and you were one of the first guys that I spoke with. I'm not sure it will help anyone to discuss this further here.

Mike

What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.

F16 Nationals - 29 boats * $150 = $4350 (3 days of racing)
US Sailing MC - 6 boats * $325 = $1950 (4 days of racing)

Major Hobie events have ~ $600 to $800 of overhead per day (those are fixed costs, no matter how many boats show up)

That's why the event lost money - and no other reason. Because people didn't show up.

Mike already said the HJ $ was spent on Robbie's clinic.

I was actually referring to Liz's resources, since people love to throw her under the bus. Not only the countless hours of phone calls and emails, but she is there on site, is she not?

The event (club) shouldn't lose money, they would have adjusted expenses as much as possible, and did have the option to cancel prior to the event.

I have nothing but thanks to offer PBYC, Bert, the committee, US Sailing, the regatta volunteers and of course the twelve sailors racing at the event.

Mike

Matt - Means had almost as much fun tugboatin' the Proline 20 as Janet Baxter did during the Miami OCR '11. We were hanging on the sun poarch for PBYC on Saturday afternoon when Fairlie spoke up. He told story of a survey they did down in southern Florida - What really draws attendance??? The survey revealed that camaraderie outweighed 'the party' almost 80% / 20%. Throw in a team of Olympic Race Officers, some good weather, and rum = One GREAT F 16 Sailing Festival! I left after Fairlie's story only to run into PU and his guests on their way to the yc.

missed ya, Matt

Too bad about the low turnout; but as Kurt Vonnegut says, "So it goes."

Mark,

I don't really care what the 420 class does. I don't know what AYC is. All of the qualifiers I have gone to were not at yacht clubs and the few Altercups I attended were on a public beach. The F18 worlds did not require US sailing membership or I would not have gone. They did have a bunch of US sailing people on some really big boats getting in the way and some US sailing race officers acting like butts at the worlds which was a big turn off .
I did not mean to make it about me just adding my thoughts about why I won't go and maybe why turnout is so low.

In my area most of the regattas are run buy sailors and not yacht clubs so I don't really get the partnership.

US Sailing membership was required at the Worlds. Individuals belonging to a member group (class association) did not have to prove individual membership.

You really would have stayed home from the Worlds if you had to join? That actually says more about you than it does US Sailing...

BTW, everyone has a bad day occasionally, even ROs. Certification and experience can mitigate, but only so far.

Mike

Again, not pot stirring - just historical perspective. The event in the past was REQUIRED to have a clinic to be eligible for the Rolex money (net $500-1000)... sooooo, if Hoyt-Jolley money was spent on a clinic (which is fine) that seems like a new expense...

Ahh, but it was about him and the sailors like him. They were the ones that made the championships happen over a long span of time. If you lose sight of the fact that everything from US Sailing, yacht clubs, boat manufactures IS about the sailor, you might as well stop trying.

Right. At the end of the day, the customers are the sailors.

Some of you guys run businesses, right? Aren't your relationships with vendors also a critical part of your business? In my experience, they can make or break you.

You may think vendors (host clubs) are replaceable, but treat them all badly and eventually you'll run out of them. Then how will you serve your customers (sailors)?

And for those of you still living in the past, even IF we could get 10 boats to show up at every qualifier, and they were properly run per the rules (and in what decade did those two things last happen), you couldn't charge enough to break even without raising the prices to the point that no one would come.

US Sailing said that there were no strings with the Rolex money (I know, shocking news for the haters). We tried to offer a discount to those who attended and won their qualifier, but since none of them were run correctly, we were justifiably concerned about legalities (appeals from sailors). Yes, there is precedent for this. Rather than write a blank check to the club, we decided to add a clinic and use a portion of the money for that.

Mike

Mike,

You are right the customers are the sailors. The problem with US sailing is they have gotten to big and wasteful on there spending (no value for the average sailor). Why can other clubs hold regattas and do ok? Does the Altercup have too many rules that add cost?

I have been self employed for 23 years and have great relationships with my vendors and they have worked hard to keep prices down and good service as the ones that do that best get the business. US sailing is the only organization so there is no competition for them and apparently doing a poor job of giving value to the clubs and sailors. I would say that US sailing would lose most of there membership if the regattas did not force you to have a membership to sail.

Matt, don't treat me like I've never organized and run a regatta before.

You're costs are per head and you damn well know there is almost no break for scale up. You're costs and revenue go up and down at almost the same rate regardless of the numbers. Everybody gets fed, shirts, hats...whatever, the only place you get a break is when it comes to trophies and that's if you keep them shallow.

The numbers for this event where known almost from day one so it makes it a pretty easy target to hit.

Let's do a quick and dirty budget comparison.

The USS Multihull Championshp has $41 to per sailor per day to spend, and this is just the fees the sailors pay, no Rolex money (we know where the Rolex money went).

F16 Nats: $25 per sailor per day to spend (3 days) but in reality it was a 4 day event. Everyone was there the day before and everyone was fed extremely well the day before, but I'll just keep the numbers to 3 days so the discrepancy isn't so glaring.

Since you knew the budget and new the numbers you were going to get why would you execute a regatta that you knew was going to lose money? Mike has beat up the previous chairs, excuse me chair for having regattas that were not sustainable. To then execute a regatta you know is a money loser, what the hell?

And for F@#K sake Matt, Mike and Mark stop blaming the sailors. You guys sound like a bunch shop owners blaming the customer for not buying a product they don't want. You noticed I didn't change the text size and bold it, I figured you could read it using the default text.

You guys do know how to put the USS Multihull Championship regatta in the black, right? Two line items come immediately to mind and I guarantee you the sailors would never notice a difference.

Read the minutes. The committee approved a cancellation date (Oct 1) if insufficient entries (15) were received. The club requested that we lift that requirement so they could run the event. As far as US Sailing is concerned, all budgetary decisions are to be made by the host club. If they choose to host an event that loses money, that is acceptable to US Sailing. The committee voiced concern, but ultimately voted to accept the club's request, which also included waiving late fees and deadlines, in support of sailors; with the support of US Sailing.

As for this BS of Mike beating up on old chairs, give me a break. Just as you guys are screaming doom and gloom, I'm pointing out where changes need to be made. We are rebuilding good relations with US Sailing, something that had been sorely lacking for too long. I get attacked here nearly daily, comes with the job.

Mike

Dave and Mike.... you need to take a look at this principle.

Definition of the word CLUB and customer

club/kləb/
Noun:

An association dedicated to a particular interest or activity.
A heavy stick with a thick end, esp. one used as a weapon.


The word customer

Definitions
1. General: A party that receives or consumes products (goods or services) and has the ability to choose between different products and suppliers.


Two points.... Yacht CLUBS have members... Period... They race some days and they organize on other days... They are never considered Customers... and Employees. Fact of the matter... they can't even sell over a certain amount of food and booze to the public... (they have a favorable tax deal relative to a bar or restaurant)

YACHT CLUBS agree to reciprocate services to other Yacht clubs and their members.... So... i get to go racing at another Yacht club's PRIVATE EVENT.. I get to use their bar... I get to use their restaurant.. and their Race Committee. KEY POINT I must be a member. By law... it must be this way... (you can't compete with private businesses) Historically.... reciprocating privileges is relatively new to sailing... The YRA's and US Sailing organized and standardized the reciprocity deals and all other aspects of racing to GROW THE SPORT.


So.... even tho you may think that Yacht Club A is competing with Yacht Club B... They are PARTNERS in a private relationship offering stuff to their members (aka sailors) along with YRAs and US Sailing.

Businesses have customers ... AND you will note... compete against different products and suppliers. Their is NO competition here between YC... there is a partnership between YCs.

Basically, Yacht Clubs opened their doors to cat sailors without insisting on membership.... HOPING that the sailors would understand they were freeloading on the partnership system... Man up and join up with the YRA as a club organization and reciprocate in growing the sport. Even better... cat sailors would join these clubs as members.


The more you focus on the idea and message that sailors are customers... the worse the game.

Mike, we use the term BENEFIT and not PRODUCT because USSA, YRAs and YACHT CLBUS offer benefits to their members.

If you sail big boats... you can see things a bit more clearly..
Sailing World Sells the NOOD Regattas to sailors.
Premiere Racing sells Key West Race week to sailors.
These for profit businesses BUY services from Yacht clubs, they pay for transportation of volunteers to run the events on the water and then sells the package to sailors.... The price is much steeper then when my YRA or Yacht club runs the identical event using the partnership of the sailors, volunteers, Yacht Clubs, YRAs and Sailors. When I choose to race the NOODs... I am a customer! When I race at somebody's club event... I am a member of a reciprocating club.

Dave wrote..


No Dave.... ( that would be Mittens) I am holding MEMBERS of the partnership accountable for not supporting their event. There was a breakdown this year.

The mistake is made by thinking you are buying a service.... Your analysis of how shop owner (St Andrews) is kicking butt over shop owner (PBYC) is bad for the sport.

FYI to the bystanders. .... US Sailing AND the USSA Multihull committee DO NOT SET THE BUDGET.... Pensacola Beach Yacht Club set the budget, pricing, fees, etc etc based on their costs, what they offer for food etc etc. Do you really think it's valuable to compare St Andrews YC and Pensacola Beach YC here...
For the sake of argument, because I don't have or have ever seen a detailed budget or accounting, the sponsorship money paid the overhead fees... So the bottom line... the YC is running an event for sailors who are members of the system.. Do you think PBYC screwed the sailors... Read the minutes... We have complete transparency here...

Mark, for as long as I've known you (and that's a long time) you have always thought you knew "what was bad for the sport" and lately have been more than willing to cut off your nose to spite your face to try and force it. In all those years you haven't solved the problem which leads to the theory that either you ARE the problem or maybe you're just wrong, or both. The political references are laughable and hypocritical at best. You guys seem to operate like D.C.

One thing that hurt attendance is that this regatta was held in the Fall. This regatta needs to be held in the Spring. Yet this Spring is now too close to hold another. I'd like to see the team regroup and hold off and announce a new Altercup regatta in Spring 2014.

I've been to 5 Altercups. Every one was a great event. I have no idea why US Sailing thinks that the 10 boat event is not a good idea? It worked for years and every competitor that I've ever talked to throught it was a quality event that produced a Champion.

I think I heard Charter Fees were like $2500 or something. That makes it impossible to gain attendance outside of the class.

Having it be an open event has removed the exclusivity of the event. We already have an F16 and F18 open event. No need for another.

And final nail was no provided boats even though the boats weren't completely provided in the past. I know we paid a Charter fee. The charter fee was very reasonable.

The provided boats enabled competitors to come in from anywhere in the country and made it very convenient to attend for the competitor.

I'd like to thank all the past chairman that did a great job under tough conditions to pull off a great event.

Mike just got dealt a bad hand. Not sure he really listened to the sailors because I know I filled out a survey and was very clear that a bring your own boat event wouldn't work. Perhaps the survey was filled out by internet sailors? I'm not sure.

Since this format obviously didn't work I'd hope they would rethink the decisions made and perhaps listen to past chairman and competitors to help find a solution.

In case it's not obvious, I do have respect and admiration for those who were able to pull this off in the past. They were the first people that I called. Some have been helpful throughout the entire process. Others, not so much...

Mike, lots of people (myself included) were against BYOB. I came into this thinking there was no way BYOB would fly. BUT, I kept an open mind, knowing that the long-term relationship was more important than any one detail.

I was fully ready, and already in Jack's office with ideas, to move heaven and earth to come up with $5,000 extra to make up for the gap between the H/J funding and previous budgets ($7,000 total), to continue with provided boats.

Reality sucks. Bert researched the costs to do a provided boat event at PBYC and the math adds up to nothing less than $10,000 for 10 Hobie 16s. It approached $20,000 for F16s and F18s.

Despite all the venom being spewed here, no one has provided a workable solution to crack that nut.

Want to earn my respect? Help us pay for that, or accept reality and let it go, and work with us to move forward.

Mike

BTW, the survey was split on this. There is a sizeable silent group that felt alienated by the old format.

Want to find the key party in any relationship? Figure out which one can exist without the other....it isn't the yacht clubs or USS.

I would argue that those who felt alienated probably wouldn't attend anyway....and the evidence supports this a good bit. I think that the results from the survey were skewed somewhat because there were probably a lot of people weighed in the scores that probably wouldn't even attend their own class' national championship.

Mike (Levesque) - I have been encouraged to believe that manufacturers will return to deeply discounted charter fees in the event that they again receive title-sponsor-level recognition. Let's face it - Hobie, Nacra, Falcon Marine, and AHPC have done far (far, FAR) more to support the event than Rolex ever has... that's not a ding on Rolex. We're just not their demographic.

Consider exploring a path forward that allows the event (designated a Championship or not) to book our own sponsorship deals. If the boat builder or provider gets top billing, with a couple of other high-level national deals (Zhik, for example, is a better supporter for us than Gill), followed by the host club's selection of sponsors, all splashed onto a better, redesigned web page for photos, video and mark-by-mark updates like we used to get (thanks Darline and Jamie!) that is maintained by someone on-site, I think the event can be newly invigorated. I agree with Mike (Hill) that Spring 2014 should be the target and announced as such ASAP, to allow for publicity and planning. Re-commit to a qualification system that results in a who's who, rather than a who's free. Engage the class leadership in the US to re-kindle a spirit of cooperation and a feeling of a shared, vested interest. All of these are recycled ideas, but I encourage their consideration anyway.

"lots of people (myself included) were against BYOB"

But someone had to try it just to prove yea or nay, right?

There seem to be quite a lot of potentially good ideas listed by a variety of folk, and the novice would think an amalgam of them might turn out something grand.

Winning the Alter Cup means what?

Do they get to go on to something bigger?
Do they win some financial support for an Olympic or other campaign?
Does it give them "street cred" when talking to private sponsors?
Do they get a free spot in the next iteration of the event?
Is this award the Pinnacle of the Sport?


On the more nuts and bolts of the AC organizing, do the host sites (Yacht Clubs) bid on hosting the event? Does that bid include pro-forma?

Mike H - why would the spring be the best season for the Alter Cup? Isn't that the beginning of sailing season in most of the US (except southern, where it's near the end)?

Personally, I like the alternating Spin/Non-spin idea. It gives me two years to save up for the Cup (unless I sail both classes).

And if this Alter Cup is a service provided to the USS members, how much of my dues is contributed toward it? If another $10 per year was all it took to make the Alter Cup a cheap/free event for those top 10 qualifiers it would make a bit more sense to me (in terms of "what does USS do for my membership dollar?"), even knowing I'd probably never qualify myself.

Maybe it's my naieve "trickle down" theory, but if the Alter Cup (1) was an important award in a sailor's resume and (2) it wasn't financially prohibitive to seek this award, then the top guns would be out there sailing hard for it by attending regattas and feeder-events that I may actually be participating in. This might allow me to improve my skills a little more each of the few times I'm out...?

Personally, I can't say enough about how helpful and approachable most of the rock stars in the multihull universe are. Sure, they shouldn't tell me ALL of the secrets of speed (we all know it's TOTW anyway), but they're usually the first to help me troubleshoot a tactical situation, understand boat settings, etc.

To see them rewarded by a quality and affordable event like Alter Cup seems a worthy use of my membership dollar

Jay - boat builders want their product out in the Spring, and most competitors are tied up in their own nationals in the Fall. That was the reason the Alter Cup was scheduled in the Spring in the past.

There really was a lot of discussion about having an event this year and it was decided to be worthwhile. Once that was determined, it was a matter of deciding how to carry it out. There was no way to plug in provided boats with all the variables/conditions/timing so the only option was BYOB. It's a reasonable conclusion arrived in a reasonable manner given the circumstances.

Interesting point. That it could theoretically benefit southern sailors who have sailed all winter is all the better But I guess it goes back to where the critical mass of likely participants are...

This is a spirited discussion that hopefully leads to a positive outcome and a bright future for the Alter Cup. Please though, be carefull not to trivialize the accomplishment of this year's champion. Sara and Kenny deserve the recognition of their accomplishment!

ABSOLUTELY! Karl, you're right and I apologize profusely for giving the impression that their accomplishment was anything less than remarkable.

+1, and I'd like to add how pleasing it was to see the point spread between the top 5 teams. That made it worth watching. Runaway events can be somewhat less significant (probably moreso to the competitors themselves, but...)

I would not trivialize their accomplishment. Both awesome sailors. Remarkable performance at the Alter Cup. Congrats to them. I've sailed against them both and have seen what they are capable of.

A bigger crowd would have just resulted in a bigger butt-whoopin', domination.

+1000

OK, this is a much better tone, and some interesting ideas.

To Jake's point, 50% of the respondents said they wouldn't attend an Alter Cup regardless of any changes that were made. I don't really know what to do with that; I don't think you throw away their feedback, because as others have mentioned, this is viewed as a benefit to all of our members, and they would like to have a say in what they want to see done.

Running it every two years has been brought up a few times, and could help offset the costs. However, it's been noted by US Sailing and from the survey responses that 10 boats on the water is not a significant event. So, if we tried to get 20 provided boats every two years, the dollars come out to be the same.

If we ran qualifiers every year, take the 20 teams from there only (10 per year from qualifiers, no petitions or invitations), that could make the qualifiers relevant once again. Of course, we'd need to come up with a plan to make people want to attend, or we'll go back to where we've just come from.

If we use the qualifiers as fundraisers, we might be able to make this work. $20,000 sounds like a lot until you break it down. Here's a random sampling:

$1,000 each times 20 provided boats = $20,000
$20,000 needed every 2 years = $10,000 per year
$10,000 per year to be raised at 10 qualifier events = $1,000 per qualifier event

That's it. We need $1,000 from each area, each year.

That's really not hard to do; it's a $50 donation per person for a 10-boat qualifier.

So, what realistic chance do we have of getting 10 area qualifiers run every year with at least 10 boats, with an entry fee of $200 per boat ($100 for the regatta, $100 towards the finals)? Yes, all other requirements will be unchanged (pay for your membership now and it won't be related to attending the event).

There are other ways to get there. We could have clinics, where we charge $50 per person to attend, all proceeds go to providing boats for the finals.

The more boats at the qualifier, the less money would need to be raised per person. We could augment with raffles, sail-a-thons, bake sales, etc. We all buy stuff (Girl Scout cookies, etc.) or donate towards walk-a-thons, etc. at the office, we could raise money that way.

Obviously, we have some areas without qualifiers, and would need to address that. Also, if the costs are more than $1,000 per boat, all of the pricing goes up; we'd just need to get more boats to the qualifiers.

Thoughts?

Mike

$200 for a weekend Portsmouth regatta is a big chunk of change for a lot of folks. Add to that the required US Sailing membership requirement (which many people purchase just to participate in this event) and your $200 regatta just became a $300 regatta. If travel is involved for out of towners, it would end up being a weekend costing upwards of $700 once hotels, food, and fuel is added in. I'm not sure your going to get the numbers you require for portsmouth event at that price.


(The following is just me thinking out loud.....)
How about implementing a $10 per boat surcharge to all regatta entries in their respective areas with the proceeds going to funding the Alter Cup? That's less than the cost of a round at the bar after racing!

how many US Sailing members are multihull sailors?

How many multihull sailors would join (again) if they knew the money offset the Alter Cup costs?

$200 per qualifier sounds a little steep for those who'd like to sail one, but have little chance of making the cut. Maybe $200 if it's a 3-4 day event... How does that stack up against the entry fees of other (class, region, etc) events?

And I'd second Karl's suggestion of a surcharge at local regattas (under certain circumstances) as long as it was guaranteed the money would go directly to Alter Cup and not "administrative expenses" or whatnot..

Sorry, my point really should have been clearer. $1,000 per area per year is what is needed, there are a million ways to raise that cash.

Mike

You must either (1) drink very cheap beer, or (2) don't have that many friends... or both?

Malt liquor for my krew

Are you saying +$10 per boat at qualifiers or ALL regattas. If it's all regattas that's nuts. Everyone will pay more money and nothing will be gained for multihulls. Mark my words on that.

Please explain a bit more...? If we're dealing hypothetically that it isn't just graft, I'd think spreading out the costs to a larger base makes sense.

But the reality is probably true. How would USS keep track of regattas and their potential revenue?

Firstly why should every regatta attendee pay extra for a race they most likely, won't do.Kind of like socialism.Screw that.
Secondly, From this threads info it seems the money that is there gets split up to make it less effective already.But who's to know for sure, nobody will come right out and say how it works.
Thirdly, when have you ever seen money arbitrarily charged for a service that has worked fine before the charge, actually work.
I'd say raise the USS dues before jacking up regatta fees. At least then the people who want it are paying for it.

well, I can agree with the USS dues concept. As I said, knowing where the money is going makes me more likely to contribute.

Heck, I kept a membership even with no boat (lapsed this year because I wasn't paying attention). I'm such a Kool-aid drinker that I didn't even expect anything for that fee except maybe a course sticker and support for the Alter Cup...

So you won't toss in another $5 entry fee so the RC can buy a bottle of rum for the winner?

I'm not a socialist kind of guy, but I see this as more of a support the fleet kind of thing. Just wish the Alter Cup "meant" something like it used to.

I don't think rum would be what USS would spend the money on . More like "office fees" meaning general fund kinda stuff. Just my opinion, but that's the way it usually goes and no I'm definitely not willing to pay more for that.
In the past I've had rum arrangements that never worked out. You know who you are.

I agree that while some "administrative fees" probably need to be part of every budget, it shouldn't be the bulk of any potential revenue

+1. I agree with Dave on all his points. I used to love the Alter Cup. It was a real honor to just qualify and be there with the best sailors and I thought the format was great fun and unique.

Unfortunately my distaste for US Sailing currently exceeds my desire to fork out extra money for their events. That is just how it is. This is an association that will need to work harder to gain the trust and loyalty of the multihull community.



Hmmm, it really should tell you something about US Sailing. He is not alone in that thinking. Whether you think it is justified or not you should not ignore the fact that sentiment is quite wide spread currently indicating something is wrong.

I'm curious about something since my experiences with US Sailing are not so recent any more...
Back about seven years ago US Sailing's designated multihull coach told me that he had never sailed a cat and did not really have much interest in the class. Is that still the case? Because you can't expect much in terms of youth development when your national organization shows that much lack of interest.

Maybe it is not just bad attitude towards multihulls? Based on our [lack of] success in London are there other underlying issues within US Sailing that need to be addressed?

Regardless, it is a shame that the turnout was this low this year. Maybe the trophy should be retired.

Olli

$5 used to buy rum for the winner is quite a but different than paying $10 for a regatta that many of us do not care about.

Well, we WERE making progress in this thread...

Insert dead horse here. Whoops, too late.

What US Sailing wants are workable solutions, not a list of complaints and requests for special treatment.

Keelboats are out of the Olympics. They still join and attend their championships. You're not as special as you want us to think.

Mike

You are sounding like someone from US Sailing. I'm getting that old fuzzy warm feeling all over...

Unless I'm mistaken, everyone that went to London had to qualify by winning trials. So, they were the best of the USA. Again, not to kill your special feelings, but the USA is just one country represented at the Olympics. There are only three medal colors, and many, many teams. Of course, all of this will be reviewed and heads will roll. Feeling special isn't limited to cat sailors; every red blooded American demands gold across the board at every Olympics. But, their results at the Olympics were the fault of the coaches... How???

Just so I'm up to speed, let me see if I at least have the math worked out.

No one wants to join US Sailing unless they're going to the Alter Cup finals. The Alter Cup finals (old format) only allowed 20 teams. The boats for a 10-boat event (old format) currently cost $10,000 to $20,000. So, for $2,000 in dues ($50 MPP membership times 40 sailors), we demand a fully funded, provided boats Alter Cup, or we're going to ask for it to be retired or "returned" to "us."

I don't have to talk to anyone at US Sailing to realize what a complete joke this is.

Mike

I don't understand why you think 20 teams is not enough? At every Alter Cup I've been to, there were under 10 teams that really stood out from the rest of the fleet as the contenders.
This is supposed to be championship representing the top sailors from the US multihull community. 20 teams is more than plenty. Quantity \= quality.

I think your problem is that no one wants to join US Sailing unless... well no one wants to join US Sailing I suppose until people get enough in return of what they deem to be worth the expense. For everyone that is going to be different.

For me personally I would pay a much larger membership fee to a national organization that represents multihull sailing, has a development program, and a great championship.

Not only does US Sailing offer none of those for me, my personal experiences dealing with them as a multihull sailor (Miami OCR, Olympic trials and the World Sailing games) has been nothing but a complete disappointment.

But hey, I know the sailors aren't important. You just want them to join.

It's not just me, or just US Sailing. Sailors in the survey overwhelmingly indicated that 20 boats on the water were the minimum acceptable for a relevant championship.

There is a whole new leadership team at US Sailing. Again, make a workable proposal to solve any issues that you see and we will try to work with them. Just listing a bunch of old complaints and demands will not return the desired outcome.

I had a director tell me about another place he had previously worked. He stated that in employees that went to management with problems and no proposed solutions were fired. US Sailing doesn't operate that way, and it is a bit extreme; but certainly has some merit. Proposing an idea that isn't adopted, then sulking and complaining for years afterwards has never been accepted anywhere I've worked, either.

Mike

This is not workplace. I don't really give rat's a$$ about US Sailing at this point and I know I'm not alone. So your attitude towards the sailors is that - ok, so you got screwed in the past. Get over it and come help US Sailing to improve. Yeah good luck with that.

The point of my post(s) was that each sailor currently not willing to join are not getting their money's worth for whatever reason(s). And whether you think those reasons are valid or not makes no difference. Otherwise they would join. It's that simple. Like it or not you will need to address the majority of sailor complaints and concerns in order to make progress.

I gave you my 'demands'; development program (for multihull sailors) and a great championship. A complete lack of attention to cat sailors and a bring your own (midget :)) boat event sure doesn't cut it - and I live five miles from this year's regatta site.

Now go find out Dave's concerns, and then the next guy's and the next guy's and so on. You will need to address much more than just their concerns about the Alter Cup as long as it requires a US Sailing membership. That was my point.

You are trying to fix the Alter Cup and ignoring the fact that it requires people to join US Sailing.

Um, no. If you read the entire post, you would know that my plan is to improve the value of membership. The Alter Cup is one small piece, and very few people participate, regardless of the format.

Very few people are involved with Olympic campaigns as well. But, we are being asked to be involved and help lead the Olympic / Development planning at US Sailing. When was the last time that happened?

And, as you've seen by just a few of the reactions here, no one wants their money to subsidize someone else's benefits.

Mike

Some progress is being made in the development program:

1. The multihull qualifier for the ISAF Youth Worlds will be selected at the same event as all the other classes. The event will be January 18-21 in Clearwater in F16s. Having the multihull treated the same as every other youth class is a very good thing.

2. I don't know if it is confirmed, but during the multihull council meeting it was discussed that the youth multihull championship will be included as part of the US Sailing Youth Champs. This is also a very, very good thing. Youth champs is probably the most competitive youth regatta of the season, with an application process to be accepted and a deep wait list. Having multihulls there will raise exposure and awareness amongst the top youth sailors in the country- which is excellent. Youth champs also has a clinic component with outstanding coaches, which will benefit those attending.

These changes, combined with the excellent work by established programs like Red Gear and SYSP bodes well for multihull development.

I think you will also see a lot of US Sailing Team coaching and support going towards Nacra 17 teams that qualify for a spot on the Team Sperry Top Sider or Development Team.

BTW, why is it impossible to have a meaningful discussion here without it breaking down to "US Sailing has done X, Y, Z things I don't like, and no matter what, they won't change and you won't be successful?"

Moving forward requires letting go of the past. Note, I didn't say forget about the past and its lessons; but clinging so tightly to old ideas and paradigms will not allow us to ever break out of this rut.

EDIT: We posted at the same time, but great points, Jeff. All of those things are confirmed.

Some of you still in denial should talk to Sarah about the opportunities she's enjoyed over the past year thanks to US Sailing.

Mike

You've hit on a major stumbling block. Leadership at USS is so disdainful of the membership they think of them as employees and not very valuable employees at that.

I encourage all to join USS so we can mount a coup.

Thanks Pete. This is exactly the kind of ambiguous scare tactic that win elections for people.

Specifically, who do you have a problem with, and are they still in office?

EDIT: More importantly, how can we work WITH US Sailing, regardless of who is in office?

Mike

It is unfortunate that the Youth Championships will be held on the same weekend as Tradewinds, it was a lot of fun having all those youngsters around at TW last year.

I am glad that they will be able to "Showcase" Youth Multihulls at Clearwater, going 20 knots downwind, right next to...Lasers and 420's (? or do they use 470s?), that should open some eyes!

I hope there's good wind and the Multihull kids put on a great show!

I was flying with a couple former Navy pilots a couple days ago out of Dubai. There was a big flat screen TV in the gate area as we were boardign our jet to come home. Playing on the TV was some of the AC45 highlight videos, fleet racing, hauling butt, then it cut to the AC72 up on the foils. These two had sailed sailed Hobie 16's 'back in the day, at Pensacola', but they had no idea about all the (new) speed developments with cats.

So I had to whip out one of my Catsailor Magazines and show them all the spinnaker cats. They were both impressed. I hope our Youth can get some more interest generated when they are out on the water next to the traditional Youth Boats.

I like the idea of a coup but I'm afraid we would not have the numbers against the massive monohull mentality.

Instead, why don't we revive NAMSA? It definetely is formed by multi sailors for multi sailors.

At this point, the only thing that's been announced is the ISAF Worlds qualifier in Clearwater. The NOR is here: http://sailingteams.ussailing.org/Assets/SailingTeams/Youth+Teams/13YWQ_NOR.pdf

Last year, this doubled as the Youth Multihull Championship (Stephens trophy), but there are no notices online about this.

What was announced in San Fran was that the Stephens trophy committee was disbanded and absorbed into the overall Youth Championship Committee; and that the multihull event will be held at the same time and location as the rest of the Youth (420s, Lasers, etc.). Sarah is our rep on the combined committee.

Mike

Bob,

The governing body for sailing is US Sailing. If we want to be taken seriously internationally, it's (well past) time to accept that and figure out how to make it work for us.

ISAF is highly unlikely to recognize splinter groups, so moving away from US Sailing would probably result in removal of a place for us from Olympics, ISAF Youth Worlds, Pan Am Games, and other major events.

Need to watch out for those unintended consequences...

Mike

Not sure about other European countries but over here membership to the national sailing organisation is mandatory if you want to compete in "official" races (races of all the ISAF registered classes).
Some events have an exemption from this rule (actually only Texel really), this is solved by having the option to enter as Gold or Silver fleet.

Membership to the national organisation runs through the yacht/sailing clubs, I think something like $10 is transferred from every membership fee (total membership fees are usually between $50-$150/y depending which club you want to a member of obviously).

What does our national organisation do for catsailors?
Probably about as little as yours does by the sound of it, although they have ordered a pair of N17s so I guess that is money well spend for the Olympic hopefuls.

Thanks Tony for the EU perspective... I belive AUS and NZ are the same way.

The key word you use is MEMBERSHIP.... not CUSTOMER.

In America, we have that independent streak... so membeship is not mandatory.

As soon as you view the arrangement as a customer buying a service... the entire infrastructue will fall apart.
Volunteers are not working for you...

The thread keeps enumerating services that "customers" demand.. ... Ollie wants a funded olympic development team, Dave wants legal support for beach access, Pete wants community sailing centers for his membership fee, John wants an Alter cup championship with provided boats, Dave wants no US Sailing interference.

There is nothing wrong with these wants... it is just not the basis for joining the club.
If you share the overall goal of the organization of supporting sailing or believe that a young sailor will be inspired by competing in the Olympics then you should join US Sailing (paraphrasing Gary Jobson)

Mike, I would encourage you to take a closer look at those past transgressions of US Sailing you are so quick to dismiss. They run pretty deep and maybe if you understood where some of our opinions came from you would be in a better position to address them instead of just saying to move on. Nobody is going to move on without seeing some real change.

Even when the multihulls had adequate representation at the Olympics (which it no longer has) the funds dedicated for Olympic development were never allocated fairly. For a long time they weren't even spent on that at all. Then the OC got more serious and stipulated more specifically how the funds were to be spent. But due to the good old boys club or whatever corruption and politics drove the decisions the multihulls never got their fair share of the allocated budget.

Real change to me would be:
1) Formal apology from US Sailing to the multihull sailors
2) Coaching. Coaching is what determines success at the Worlds and the Olympics. Has US Sailing hired dedicated multihull coaches? Is there anyone in US Sailing (outside of the multihull council) that has any expertise in multihulls?
3) Budget equality between classes. No more favorites. We want equipment for the youth to practice with. Have they purchased any N17s?

I agree that ISAF would not recognize splinter groups. ISAF is not necessarily the only way to the IOC though. In fact, I think ISAF might be the reason we lose sailing out of the Olympics completely. But that is a whole other mess to untangle.

Just responding to your post.

I don't think the monohull crowd is real happy with USS, hell I've even heard complaints from the Opti people.

IF the entire membership is unhappy that's a sign of needed change.

I guess the Multihull committee did the catamaran survey last year? Why not an inclusive confidence vote, so we see where we stand?

Mike,
Can you post the link again to the results from the survey? I seem to remember you did before but I can't find it.
Thanks.

Ollie, you make some good points, and I have already stated that we will make every effort not to repeat old mistakes. However, claiming that the new multihull discipline is less worthy than the old is a repulsive attitude towards the sailors who will follow this path.

As a reminder, Jack and Gary both came to our meeting last year, and both stated unequivocally that US Sailing values us and wants to work with us. Everyone, on all sides, recognize that mistakes have been made, on all sides.

We are currently being asked to help shape the future of Olympic and Development. I am not going to take a giant step backwards and rehash the past demanding apologies or anything else.

As you know, all funding for Olympics comes through separate fundraising (not from dues). How much money do you think has been donated through our side of the sport? I'd guess not a whole lot. If we want more funding to be made available to our athletes, it would be a much better use of our time to help raise it.

Mike

Todd, I'll try to find that when I get home. It was emailed to all Area Reps and everyone on the Multihull Championship Committee in the spring.

Mike

Ollie

2) Coaching. Coaching is what determines success at the Worlds and the Olympics. Has US Sailing hired dedicated multihull coaches? Is there anyone in US Sailing (outside of the multihull council) that has any expertise in multihulls?

Leandro Spinna is the multihull coach. As you probablly know he is a cat sailor as well.

3) Budget equality between classes. No more favorites. We want equipment for the youth to practice with. Have they purchased any N17s?

umm... US Olympic has never provided boats in any class.
Budget equality.... The funding formula is published... the amount depends on how you do in international events.

The youth pathway is through F16's and the events are open. The olympics are on N17's and the events are mixed

A second stumbling block. USS' mandate is for Olympic developement, I for one have little interest in the Olympics and don't plan contribute a single penny towards that developement.

I guess I have a really unpopular stance regarding US Sailing within the community that I sail in. I see the good that US Sailing does in training judges, race officials, certifying youth sailing coaches, etc. All of the me, me, me, comments going on are troubling. Sailing is more than just what is going on in your back yard and how it affects YOU. You don't want to support olympic sailing or the alter cup, fine, don't. But, Pete, take a look at this years olympic sailing team....A large number are from right in your back yard...Zach Riley (Finn), Paige Riley (Laser), Mark Mendleblat (Star), Farrah Hall (windsurfer). These are all sailors coming out of your backyard. Why not support them and their efforts??????

No doubt US Sailing does do some good but I liken it to a charitable organization that keeps 80% of what it takes in for admin fees and uses the remaining 20% for doing what it was set up to do. Do you donate to charities that are set up that way? This has to change, clearly changing it from the inside doesn't work so what's the plan B? Accept USS sailng for what it is and ignore its disfunction?

There is also nothing to prevent anyone from supporting our olympic hopefulls directly. Do you really think USS stretches our support $$ farther than giving it directly to the sailors? Do you believe there is no politics involved when distributing those funds?

Karl, I was just like you beating that US Sailing drum then I got more involved than I should have and I kind of miss those days now.

I'm not opposed to Olympic sailing (though I'm sure it sounds that way). I'm more concerned about access, which has been my number one concern for years.

Let USS develop a strong policy for opening access and see if there is a positive result.

And what would you like to see NAMSA set as it's goal(s)?

This is a good thing. He is topnotch and good people.

US Sailing just published the "Why we didn't win any medals in the 2012 Olympics and what we recommend be done about it for 2016" report:

Olympic Review Panel Report

The recommendations are of particular interest. It will be interesting to see what gets implemented.

Final point...
(for those who don't want to buy an Olympic service or those that think US Sailing should only run olympics.//)

Your dues do not support Olympic development or Olympic Sailing... that branch will raise that money independently.

US Sailing picks and hires the leasdership... now Josh Adams... who goes out and finds the money and runs the program getting athletes to the Olympics.


This is just BS tho.. US sailing is a volunteer run organization.. it's a club... you join as a member... you do not buy a service. If you value Olympics... you should join..

Recommendations.

Ding, I hate to say it, but yes. The key is to accept what you can't change and make the most of the opportunities that exist. There are more than most people would think, we just need to get some achievable goals that are shared with US Sailing's vision.

I don't know (or frankly care) about the accuracy or impact of your 80/20% comment. No one is getting rich at US Sailing, but to hire professionals, you have to pay them something close to what they'd earn in a normal business environment.

At the end of the day, I don't care how much they're paid. If they support us and work with us (which, by and large they do), that's money well spent.

Mike

Now I'm really confused (but echo Karl's comments).

Can I get to an ISAF or Olympic event without being a USS member? Can I compete once I'm there?

Does USS do or offer anything for non-racing sailors?

Are USS coaches only for Olympic development teams/prospects/classes?

I like the USS sanctioned event concept (with judges, official results for DPN/Portsmouth calculations, etc) if for no other reason than it would help me settle an insurance claim if one popped up at one of those events

But all this hubris is good: we do need a healthy debate on where our money is going.

But we all have different ideas on the best purpose for the money.

So we voted on it, and maybe we weren't a large enough coalition to bully the big dogs, classes, manufacturers, whatever

so we bail and wish "doom and unmitigated failure" upon the organization. To our own peril, I suspect.

Of course, this is an oversimplification, and doesn't give credit to those who I know personally that have put a lot of effort into USS (Ding, Dub, Mike, you know who you are)

Can I get to an ISAF or Olympic event without being a USS member? Can I compete once I'm there?

No .... its a club

Does USS do or offer anything for non-racing sailors?
Safety at Sea
Standards for sailing instruction and other stuff that I don't care about.


Are USS coaches only for Olympic development teams/prospects/classes?
Yes... but you could hire them privately I suppose.


I like the USS sanctioned event concept (with judges, official results for DPN/Portsmouth calculations, etc) if for no other reason than it would help me settle an insurance claim if one popped up at one of those events

That is the the point of having certification process in place AND protest committes deciding on the rule of sailing... Your insurance company will do what it does with that info.... Bad for you not to have the findings.


But all this hubris is good: we do need a healthy debate on where our money is going.

True .... but remember it's a CLUB... not a purchase from a vendor.
I don't care about disabled sailing... but i get it with my dues.

I care about Special Olympic sailing but it's a seperate thing from US Sailing... so be it.

But we all have different ideas on the best purpose for the money.
True... it's a club... you support the club if you agree with the overall goal or find one thing you value...



So we voted on it, and maybe we weren't a large enough coalition to bully the big dogs, classes, manufacturers, whateve

so we bail and wish "doom and unmitigated failure" upon the organization. To our own peril, I suspect.

Of course, this is an oversimplification, and doesn't give credit to those who I know personally that have put a lot of effort into USS (Ding, Dub, Mike, you know who you are)

To be clear, I think US Sailing has value to anyone who sails. I've been neck deep in volunteering for the organization for 15 years and I'm not done. I don't think they do everything right. I've been at odds with the last few years of moving away from a volunteer organization, but my membership is current and so is my race officer certification.

Neither the Alter Cup nor the Olympic programs get any money from dues - if you don't want to support the elite end of the sport, you can still be a member with a clear conscience.

I have been and will continue to be a multihull sailor first, and I always saw the Alter Cup as the most visible evidence to other adult multihull sailors of what US Sailing is about, at least at a level that connects more locally for most of us. I've been torn as the event that brings all classes, fleets and associations together has changed, incrementally, into something else. I've wondered, as others do, if it would serve the multihull community better to have the Alter Cup out from under the US Sailing Championships. This does not equate (in my mind) to a condemnation of US Sailing as a whole.

Yes, and to me that would likely be the RRS and my course sticker. Didn't know zero $ went to Alter Cup or Olympic campaigns/training centers, but that's not my call.

Just out of curiosity, how much is a membership?
And how many percent of the average racer's budget is it?

John,

I would fully support someone forming an organization to try and run such an event for 10 invited sailors on provided boats..... It could be for profit or as a non profit.

I suspect that this is very very hard to dp but nothing would be stopping such an effort.

Heck, I think the Hobie 16's have a private thing occasionally in Puerto Rico for invites only. There is precedent for such an event.

It would be crass to grab the name of the existing championsip but that would be my only issue.

I'm am a member of two yacht clubs, both members of USS
I'm a member of my class
My class is a USS member
My class dues (almost 100%) go to my international class
My IC pays ISAF

As far as I'm concerned my oblications to support the stucture of the sport are met and there is no need for me to contribute to another club that is known to provide very marginal support to the sport I love.

Mark - I think that the Alter Cup can remain a US Sailing event without being under Championships, which carries all the obligations of national sponsorship agreements, few of which are tailored or even relevant to our small niche of the sport. I'm not in favor of a new organization as long as there's an Alter Cup at US Sailing.

I think it's $60/yr. I'm a member but I've forgotten exactly how much. I usually add some extra $$ for the Multihull Council and Youth Sailing.

As a percentage of racing budget?? Depends on the sailor, and how much they spend on their racing, but it's not a whole lot.

I still think the "Answer" to the Alter Cup issues (money and boats) are to get one or two BIG NAME sponsors, like Budwieser, Red Bull, Jimmy Buffett, etc. and do it RIGHT!

Get 10 (or 20) Brand New boats from a single source, to be raced by class champions (top 2 or 3 from each class) ONLY, no Political Invites, and have it at a large, very spectator friendly, venue, ie. right off the beach at some huge resort with spectators and TV coverage. Sort of like the AC 45 thing in SFO bay.

Yes, that's going to cost a lot of money, but asking a bunch of weekend pogues to pony up, obviously isn't working in terms of turnout.

Another example of what is happening at US SAILING http://sailingteams.ussailing.org/News/2012/2013_Youth_Worlds_Qualifier.htm

So, how many of our Youth Multihull Sailors in US and Canada will enter?

Caleb Tarleton
www.sailsandpoint.org

My brother in law, David Hein, will be there, I think sailing with Taylor Reiss.

We are Family Members, $90/year, for three sailors. Membership is required in several Regattas we attend. Very small part of our sailing budget.

But to what end, Timbo? What does the Alter Cup get the winners of it? And what would the BIG sponsors get in return for watching 10 teams duke it out?

They both get the same things the sponsors and winners of the X Games get.

Obviously, being counter cultural that I am, either you are referring to something kids do or some sort of Porn competition?

No, get your mind out of the gutter, I'm talking about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A_x4D5rRdQ

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dasROL6feAc

Or This: http://www.medcup.org/home/

Why can they draw the sponsors and TV, but US Sailing can't, or won't?

Viewership! When I try to explain racing sailboats, it comes out Kentucky Derby on snails. We ain't NASCAR.

With all the hookers and blow, I've got my own issues to deal with at work, because nobody could have landed that airplane like I did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlFMZ5D8FNc


But if we would crash into each other like NASCAR, or the AC45's, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvk4D-GlUgE we'd get more viewership!

Remember the test pilot who did a barrel roll with what, the first 727?

It was a 707, pre 727 days. "Watch This!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk

Thanks Mike.

yes



I think Pete hit it pretty well, (Made me laugh anyways). Watching sailing is boring as sh!t. Even if you know what's going on, watching a whole race is a yawner. The AC stuff has been done really well, and I can really only take that for fifteen or twenty minutes at a time.

So I guess you've never watched an entire baseball game, or soccer game, or...the Vikings!

;^)

Timbo, you beat me to it. There isn't a sport that I can stand to sit down and watch for a whole game, sometimes not more than 5-10 minutes. I'd much rather participate.

For me, that even filters down to race management. I'd much rather have a fleet of 80 boats, or better, multiple fleets to manage; rather than one small fleet. I know a lot of race officers and mark boat guys that get freaked out by that, LOL...

Mike

umkay...how do we entice people to participate in the sport?

Like we've never discussed that question before (tongue planted firmly in cheek)...

All our woes began with the demise of B fleet...

I would venture a guess it started before then...

How many USS sailors are multihullers?

Any guess on how many NON-USS members are multihull racers in USA?

Not less than 1,000 and probably closer to 1500 or 2,000.

If you just count paid members of the class associations you get 1,000.

If you add in casual racers, you'd approach 1500.

If you add big boats, you'd get closer to 2,000.

The percentage that convert to the multihull MPP membership is paltry.

I fully agree that we are destined to die a slow and painful death if we don't do something to bring in new blood. We have one or two class championships that are growing and all others are shrinking. Fleet sizes follow pretty closely, even if you include fun sailors.

Mike

So.... in answer to what does US sailing do for its members... not its customers..

Besides the things that Multihull sailors take for granted or dismiss... like Race Management training, and the Multihull Championship Committee, or the Olympic committee.

there is also a One Design organization.... who are doing this....

US Sailing's 2013 One-Design Symposium:
A Learning Experience
US Sailing's 2013 One-Design Symposium, presented by Gowrie Group, is coming to the Cleveland Yachting Club in Rocky River, Ohio on January 11-13. Enjoy more than 20 workshops and general sessions at this premier event for one-design class racing.

Workshop and presentation topics include:

Racing Rules and their tactical uses
Growing your class and staying strong
Go Fast Tips from experts
Best resources for your class, club or fleet
Attracting young adults
Regatta overview
Class Communications
Sponsorship, Digital Marketing, Brand Management
Successful Fleet Checklist

I will say it again.... it's a club... If you value one of the things the club is about..... you should support the Volunteers.

I would bet that your local club or YRA just can't pull together this kind of program...

I attended the Annapolis OD symposium and though it was spectacular... I even wrote up lots of notes and put them on cat sailor...

Take advantage of the offer!!

I've been involved with these since the one in Annapolis in 2005. They are well worth the time, but you have to do a couple of things to make it really worth it:

• Be very open-minded - they will tell you to check attitudes at the door. It's OK to acknowledge your class, but don't wear it on your shoulder.
• Don't hang out with your buddies - meet new people that have different ideas that just might work for your fleet / class.

I'll be co-presenting the "Class Communications" break out session with Laura Jeffers, the Executive Director of the Lightning Class.

Mark and Matt make excellent points here. As cat sailors, we have two direct paths to benefits through US Sailing: MRC and ODCC. There are others (Race Admin, Olympics, etc. for those interested).

Bottom line, you have to be extremely closed-minded to think there are no benefits (or, potential benefits) of US Sailing membership. You may need to seek them out, but they are there, waiting to be enjoyed.

Mike

Ha! Not sure if that was intentional or not, but I clicked on "Olympic Path" from the USS web homepage and got

HTTP 404 Page Not Found.

Ironic? You be the judge

Also, if I renew my USS membership today, will it expire December 31 of this year, or will it expire December 2013?

I thought they were calendar year memberships...