Rule change

How does one petition USS for a change in rules? Is it even possible?

The only serious incident I've been around since I bought the F16 involved a cavalier port tacker. That incident resulted in a destroyed boat and nearly a fist fight.

I suggest we remove ALL responsiblity to avoid collisions from starboard tack boats and see if the attitude of those port tackers remains unchanged. My guess is their judgement will be altered immediately.

Why? People cant make mistakes?
Once or twice I called that we would cross, but then a shift or a puff came and we didn't, it happens.

Would the starboard tacker also not be allowed to duck the port tacker?
Sometimes I'm happy to let them cross simply because they would interfere with the plan (like getting to whatever side of the course you want to be).

Bad BAD idea. Back in the day it used to be that way or it seemed to be and I saw more than one the starboard tack boat take off the outboard of a port tack 4ksb and there were also some nasty t-bones that caused very serious damage and put people at risk. In no way is removing the no contact obligation a good idea. The rules are the way the are for a very good reason and they have the history to back them up!

Saying protest and taking it to the room is MUCH better way to deal with the issue.

For the record, if I have to wiggle to avoid you get a comment and a pass, if I have to do it again we go to the room, yes Beth I'm looking squarely at you. Ricky if it's you... yeah we're going to the room at the very least it will keep you from getting wrecked and being in a pissy mood the next day because you feel like crap.

thanks for not calling out my skipper....she's new at sailing (but pretty) and I have a blind spot in my right peripheral vision.

Stay clear of USA1231

Pete, starboard will still be smiling all day long even if he has to slightly avoid the port boat. The port boat now has to do turns...which is fair punishment for misjudging the crossing situation - wouldn't you agree?

At no time can you setup the rules to allow someone to hit and damage another boat. It leads to chaos.

How many (rule knowledgeable) port tackers have you ever had to duck?

I misjudge a port starboard cross ~perhaps~ once a year and it's not some big, huge, "HOLY ****!" moment. The other boat sees me coming and just has to make a tiny maneuver to avoid. I do between 12 and 18 regattas a year and it's a lot of crossing. I call foul on probably 5 to 10 people crossing me per year. It's part of racing. The rules work very well in this regard.

Not all discussions are about you. I'm still thinking of the boat that was destroyed, the sailor who left the sport, and the ill will that still exists as a result of a port/starboard foul. A foul that could have been avoided had the port tacker accepted the onus of the rule.

As a minimum, I believe the rule should be changed to an automatic dsq.

Pete, to answer your question, contact the Rules Committee to petition for a change.

I can tell you from lots of reading, seminars and discussions with very senior judges that one of the goals when developing rules is making the game fair. They try to make the rules balance such that the course doesn't become one-sided. Giving starboard carte blanche rights would have unintended consequences on the fairness of racing.

Mike

The current rule has led to an unintended consequence: the willingness of port tackers to abandon the onus of the rule.

The expiration date on the new sailor thing has got to be expired by now don't you think? How many years has she been pointing your boat in the right direction for you?

I'll just be sure to yell louder and earlier and give you friendly advice like "you're not gonna make it" or "don't go in there" you know becuase I'm a giver and Chris is pretty.

May be a change sould be an extra turn for a port/starboard infrigement. Something that would highly discourage risky behavior. The problem I have with risky crossings with cats are.
1. The closing speeds of the boats.
2. The acceleration that a cat has that a mono does not. This keeps the starboard boat from just turning down to duck.
3. The time/distance lost for the boat that has right away if they have to turn up hard or tack to avoid.

To me a simple turn does not make up for totally scewing up someone elses race.

Pretty is the controlling factor and extends newbie indefinitely.

How was my post about me Pete? I sited examples I witnessed not something that was hearsay to make the point that the idea of removing the obligation to avoid contact is a bad idea.

Keep us posted on the progress of your petition.

It wasn't, my bad. I was refering to another post all together.

How often does this scenario you state happen? You guys are proposing fixes to a hypothetical problem that doesn't exist.

I can name a few and one was damage to my boat.

I can too - and I was on starboard. Totaled two boats. The guilt was properly assigned. The whole thing was regrettable but it worked out. I wouldn't think I, as starboard boat, should shed any hint of responsibility to avoid damage to boat, life, or limb just because of the angle of my boat.

Agree, you guys are trying to fix something that is not broken. Jeff when was the last time you were in 60+ boat fleet going around A mark or better yet the gate with a bunch of jacked up A type personalities? The rules in their current form work really well in my opinion.

If you feel that storngly about it put it in your SI's, test the water.

The real question should be
"When was the last time there was unneeded boat damage or injury in those conditions that could/should have been avoided but were not because someone felt the right of way boat could/would just avoid contact if they misjudged?"

I am not proposing that we change the rules but something that would reduce the behavior.

Restore the historical rule, dsq.

I'm not sure you are allowed to change (technically speaking) those rules in the SI's...per the rules.

I knew you would say that. However, breaking rules is not OK, and there are ways to deal with that. Having one-sided rules will make the game less enjoyable.

I know, a broken boat isn't enjoyable either, but there's only so much a rule book can protect you. The rest is best done by culture (protest, pep talk behind woodshed, etc.).

Mike

The social dynamic doesn't seem to be upholding the existing rule.

You're generous to a fault, Ding

Perhaps I should revise my strategy to stop your boat: get a pretty driver and push the port tack....

But back to Pete's suggestion. I would have to disagree and reinforce the "it's every sailor's duty to avoid collision".

When has a collision served to elevate the sport in any aspect (except maybe parts sales)?

This ain't a freakin demolition derby, especially at current boat prices.

I'll admit I've "hunted" a few port-tackers on the course or pre-start. If given total immunity on starboard as you suggest, I probably could have rammed a few people if I were so inclined to make my point that way.

Can you expound on the exact circumstances of the incident you describe? Was it a total miscalculation of the port tacker causing the collision? Which boat was damaged? What remedies were offered?

IIRC, if boats are involved in a collision, aren't they both required to retire? Would the exonerated boat then be given redress in the room?

Since we are doing the "crazy talk" thing... you could chuck the rules and write your own, yes?

I suppose if we're just saying "to hell with it" anything goes!

I was racing in the days of ... when you needed to HIT the other boat to win the protest ... and ... Starboard tack boats had absolute rights and did not have to avoid a collison ...

I found myself in the position of rounding the leeward mark, exiting on port w/ (2)other boats overlapped and to my port (I was on the outside of the pinwheel effectively ) ... and a boat that rounded ahead of us and went low, came back at us on Starboard ... I WAS PINNED as the (2) boats to my port did not/would not tack ... I was told in the protest that I HAD to immediately tack onto starboard and hit the boat to my port ... I said NO ... I will not hit another boat on purpose!!!! just to win a protest!!! I lost the protest ... but the rule was changed the next year to it's new format ... much better!!!!

... and remember Pete ... the starboard boat gets to determine what is too close and calls the protest!!! Take it to the Protest Room !!! While it's not enjoyable, it's a lot easier then doing fiberglass/gelcoat work ... trust me!!!! And infinitely SAFER!!!


Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/P19MX

Why couldn't you duck the starboard boat, or protest him for tacking too close?

Mike

Mike,

This was way back when "mast abeam" still existed and tacking too close/room and opportunity didn't exist yet in the RRS's. And the wind was maybe 10-12 knots ... just short of trapping for us ... but hiked out w/ the footstraps ... (I was +220 lbs at the time and my crew was 180-190 lbs ...)

The H-18 that protested me rounded the leeward mark first, went low ... followed by two H16's "C" Fleeters then me quickly on my H-18 ... maybe there was a wind shift cause we came around and point up maybe 10-15 degrees higher immediately ... the two H16's didn't get rolling/going quickly as they got into a pinching contest ... I was trying to get "mast abeam" and roll them ... and was there ... when the other H-18 tacked and came "hunting" us on starboard ... I couldn't duck ... the angle just wasn't there to duck ... I would have accelerated too much and still wouldn't have cleared him ... and I couldn't tack away w/o hitting the H16 only a few feet to my Port .... I was the "meat" in the sandwich ... all I could do was go straight as fast as I could ... and I tried ... the H-18 hunting us never eased his mainsheet and hit my rudder ... and then informed me that he was going to protested me "After" we crossed the finish-line (this happened at the last rounding/on the beat to the finish ...) No hail any where near the collision ...

I was placed in a "no-win" situation ...tack onto starboard and hit the H-16 or be hit by the H16 ... go straight and try and clear ... but the other H-18 hunted us and under the rules at the time had no obligation to avoid the collision ... and he didn't ... remember at the time you needed to hit someone to prove that it was too close and win the protest ... and that's what he did ...

... and as I've always said ... on a H-18, right or wrong, he or does the hitting gets a hole in his boat ... and that's what happened ... and on a H-18 that's the main reason why you avoid a collison at all costs ... self-preservation !!!

I remember mast abeam, which applied to boats on the same tack. I'm reasonably sure that tacking too close was always there too.

I agree with you though, the old rules only made the fiberglass guys happy (as was also mentioned mentioned above).

Mike